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Hillary-Obama Texas Debate: Live Blog I

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:56:00 PM EST
Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Democrats Debate (all tags)
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Update: Post debate thread here. Comments closing on this one.

The Austin, TX CNN Debate starts in 5 minutes. Big Tent Democrat and I are live-blogging using our live-blog software.

You can comment same as always in the comment section below. You also can send us live messages through the software. Only comments you post below will appear on the site. For a reminder of what it looks like, see our L.A. Debate thread.

I'll be putting up some polls during it to see how you think the candidates and questioners are doing. His posts will say BTD and mine will be TL.

The live blog stays below the fold so that it can be a bit wider than the front page allows. Just click on the "There's More" button or bookmark the permalink to go directly to it.

< Texas Democrats Debate: Pre-Debate Thread | Texas Post-Debate Live Thread >

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    Hillary-Obama Texas Debate: Live Blog I | 175 comments (175 topical)
    This one should be interesting (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:46:31 PM EST
    and I'm absolutely spending my debate time here. No one covers them quite the same way.

    Ah. Must be important, as (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:48:57 PM EST
    you have cleared your schedule!

    [ Parent ]
    She pulled out her own chair tonight (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:07:12 PM EST
    as best I could see -- cameras quite far from them at that point.   As for the cheering for each candidate as they came out, I thought it was equal.

    Score one for Clinton with me and a lot of Texans for starting with the story of the late, great Barbara Jordan -- and then with Ann Richards, who brings even greater cheers.

    She is reminding Texans that they like to vote for women, tough women (with hearts of gold -- but both had quite the mouths on them, too:-).

    Obama hits hard on NAFTA (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:10:55 PM EST
    phony form him.

    Oh, and he has a prop!

    No excuses BTD. She's been sick too. :) (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:12:54 PM EST


    We're voting on his opening (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:13:46 PM EST
    statement but he's still talking.

    Here we go:  running against Washington, but wait, I'M in Washington.

    Texas Feminist (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:19:02 PM EST
    Hillary did well, at least with this Texas feminist, to mention the names of two powerhouse Texas women, Ann Richards and Barbara Jordan. "Don't Mess with Texas Women" is no idle slogan, and Hillary is speaking directly to women like me.

    Women like you (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:36:34 PM EST
    are not just in Texas.  I'm nearly to Canada, and I have Ann Richards' book on my shelf behind me -- and I have videotapes of Barbara Jordan . . . so students up here in the Northland learn about her, too.

    So I enjoyed, with you, that Hillary started with that . . . and could only imagine, sadly, how a debate in Wisconsin might have begun with some of our tough women, too.:-)

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary is just better at this (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:19:39 PM EST


    Obama's answer on Immigration was good too (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:33:50 PM EST
    perhaps his first well-expressed answer tonight.

    But Hillary is making me feel good to be a Democrat.

    She is certainly (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:33:56 PM EST
    full of life and energy when speaking tonight. You can feel her excitement. Sen Obama seems to be having problems finding it tonight.

    Like W He Promises (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:35:36 PM EST
    Go for it Hillary

    Just say it

    Obama Uninspiring in Debates (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by BDB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:38:37 PM EST
    It's surprising.  Deval Patrick must've had a few good lines in debates that he could use.

    Hilllary (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:40:18 PM EST
    just saved Sen Obama on the fence issue. Did you see him .. AND of course he agrees!

    Can anyone imagine (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:47:58 PM EST
    the snoozefest that an Obama-McCain debate will be?

    I think this debate seals the question for me on which way my primary vote will be going.

    Why does Cambell Brown (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Coldblue on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:10:21 PM EST
    always cut off Hillary, and not Barack?

    The candidates (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:15:05 PM EST
    have taken over the debate.

    about time (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:16:33 PM EST

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Obama is wrong (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:15:46 PM EST
    about her plan. Her plan offers plans similar to medicare/medicaid to low income and poor families.
    / "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes." Macbeth, Wm. Shakespeare
    That was a great moment (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:16:02 PM EST
    I'm so glad they cut off the moderators.

    Josh Marshall can't help getting it, (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:33:54 PM EST
    since he's smart:

    Hillary yanks it back to the health care debate. But it's hard for me to see that Hillary doesn't have the better part of the policy question. If the young and healthy don't have to buy in, there's not enough money for the ailing and old to be covered -- or for the vast middle who are healthy but might suddenly not be. I don't see a way around that. And that's the rub to this whole debate. Not just this debate right now within the Democratic party, but the whole question of health care.

    This is actually a very simple point. Hillary may get through to voters tonight.

    yes, but (none / 0) (#179)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:43:15 PM EST
    But then he said he didn't understand how she could say she's been representing the US for 15 years.  Is he not aware that she traveled around the world, representing the U.S., when she was first lady?

    [ Parent ]
    Do or die (none / 0) (#1)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:39:57 PM EST
    for Hillary tonight.

    Either she kicks butt tonight and turns the tables or she is done regardless of the next debate.

    What do (none / 0) (#2)
    by Cycloptichorn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:46:03 PM EST
    you think she can do, that will be different then past debates?

    I don't know if we'll see her go all that negative, despite some predictions; probably some pretty sharp rhetoric will be bandied about though.

    Expect her to play up the CiC line, expect Obama to smack it down with her Iraq and Iran votes.

    [ Parent ]

    If I had to guess (none / 0) (#4)
    by flyerhawk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:47:57 PM EST
    She will try and attack Obama.  Not go negative per se.  But she will ask him about his accomplishments, about his record, etc.  

    She will then try to contrast it with her own achievements.

    I don't think there is that much real difference between them but the framing will crucial.

    [ Parent ]

    btw, (none / 0) (#8)
    by Cycloptichorn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:50:17 PM EST
    you're the best poster on Redstate, by far, humiliate those Republicans all the time with your 'logic' and 'thought.'  Confusing to them.  keep it up!

    [ Parent ]
    What is the "CiC line" so I (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:50:14 PM EST
    don't miss it?

    [ Parent ]
    Hill's (none / 0) (#9)
    by Cycloptichorn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:50:54 PM EST
    been pushing the 'I'm ready to be Commander in Chief, and he's not!'  I don't know what she bases this on, so it will be interesting to see if she trots it out.

    [ Parent ]
    AP for about a week sd. Obama is (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:52:29 PM EST
    striving to be the first black President and HRC is striving to be the first female Commander in Chief.  Now they have them both running for President.

    [ Parent ]
    BTW, HRC is on the Senate (none / 0) (#12)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:54:06 PM EST
    Armed Services Committee.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah (none / 0) (#14)
    by Cycloptichorn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:55:49 PM EST
    that's probably the tack that she will take then.

    Obama's got a lot of pressure on him to do well tonight... can't trip this late in the game!  She'll try and trap him with some difficult questions.

    [ Parent ]

    I for one (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:56:22 PM EST
    am very tired of his Iraq war bragging lines. Opposing the war doesn't make one qualified to be commander in chief. It means his heart was in the right place at the right time. No one doubts that he means well.

    Just like I don't doubt that he'll nominate good judges. The question is, will he get them past Congress? If he can't, what does it matter?

    I hope in this debate Hillary explains why she believes she will be a more effective President than he will. They barely differ on policy. It's who can get the agenda pushed through.

    [ Parent ]

    She (none / 0) (#19)
    by Cycloptichorn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:00:34 PM EST
    definitely has an opportunity tonight to do so on a national stage.  If her answers are comprehensive enough and can include not only factual reasons but emotional content, she should do well.

    [ Parent ]
    I am glad you said that (none / 0) (#20)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:01:09 PM EST
    I just keep thinking, "yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"

    I really want Clinton to present her case, too.  I think at times both have forgotten that the point of all of this is to ask for peoples' votes and to tell them why you deserve it.

    And at the risk of being set upon by jackals, I think Clinton is better at speaking plainly to voters and hope that she chooses to address this very important question of "why should you give me this job?"

    [ Parent ]

    I hope she takes that tack (none / 0) (#27)
    by stillife on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:07:51 PM EST
    and I think that she will.  When I saw her at Hunter College yesterday, one of the points she made was that she's asking us to hire her for the most important job in the world.  And of course she spoke of her qualifications and ability to get the job done.

    [ Parent ]
    They barely differ on policy.?!?! (none / 0) (#30)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:10:24 PM EST
    That's what I was trying to point out in your thread about who was the more Progressive candidate!  I felt dismissed and shot down.

    In any event . . .

    The very basic premise for Hillary's campaign just isn't selling well in today's political climate.  I think a lot of America is just fed up with all-things-Washington.  So when the choice is between the simple-memes of "experience" vs "change", it's "change" that sells slightly better.

    Bill Clinton, in fact, used that to great effectiveness in 1992.

    [ Parent ]

    Except Bill Clinton wasn't a (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:13:28 PM EST
    U.S. Senator. I will never understand how Obama can say this over and over again w/a straight face.

    [ Parent ]
    I am not sure (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:41:19 PM EST
    a lot of voters don't make that distinction, unfortunately.

    Had he been able to trot out some "changes" he has made while in the Senate, I think he could make a legitimate claim to it, even as a Washington insider.  But that's not the case.

    Real change has always happened by fighting for it. If you think about all of those historical moments in US history, they were all brought about by years of fighting for them, not by appeasing the interests you are opposed to. These "moments" were never moments, but the culmination of years of hard work.  That's the distinction I see between these too candidates, and that's why I agree with Clinton on a philosophical level.  

    [ Parent ]

    because you missed what I was saying (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:15:52 PM EST
    which is he's being made out by conservatives and his supporters to be more liberal when he's not. Go re-read my post. And no more comments in this thread about it. This is for the debate.

    [ Parent ]
    I wish I were as convinced as you are (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:17:30 PM EST
    that he will nominate good judges.  Actually, I think he'll nominate them, but I fear he won't spend his political capital on getting them confirmed.

    [ Parent ]
    I also fear (none / 0) (#103)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:48:19 PM EST
    he won't hardline on getting good nominees through -- in part because at least in my primary and a few others' results I'm able to scrutinize more, I don't see him having much of a coatttail effect.  And we won't get any good nominees through if we don't get a strong hold on the Senate (and the other House for other causes).

    [ Parent ]
    Anyone know how long the debate (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:49:21 PM EST
    is supposed to go?

    usually (none / 0) (#10)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    2 hours?

    [ Parent ]
    it's supposed to be on (none / 0) (#13)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:54:07 PM EST
    from 8-9:30, but very often they run late.  I forget her name, but I'm not too impressed with the moderator.

    So the last CA debate revolved around 3 main topics: immigration, health care and Iraq.  

    Predictions for tonight?

    I think Pakistan or more likely Kosovo will come up (unless they think it may favor HRC too much and not ask it), plus the envirment and the economy, genreally.  Though immigration is a big issue in TX. Maybe education?  Mmmmm, so many to chooose from...

    I've read Obama has waffled on (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:59:23 PM EST
    school vouchers lately; used to say no; now says we'll see; waiting for a longitudinal study to be completed.  

    Immigration:  yes

    Plagiarism:  probably not--old news.

    Influence of lobbyists:  yes, based on NYT story

    Will HRC drop out before the convention if she loses TX and Ohio?:  yes, based on David Plouffe (I really enjoy typing his name; makes me smile)

    Superdelegates:  maybe

    Michelle Obama's gaffe:  hope not

    [ Parent ]

    what I'd concentrate on (none / 0) (#16)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:58:05 PM EST
    Nail him down on his two attacks from mailers: 1) that her healthcare plan will make people choose between feeding their children and paying insurance and 2) that the Bill Clinton years were awful and robbed the democratic party of any forward momentum.

    When he asks her to release her tax returns, after explaining that she hasn't filed yet and has until April 15th, I would ask him to allow his old law firm to release billing records so that we know exactly how much time he spent on particular projects.

    I would also ask him to go on the record explaining his Rezko relationship; he says that he saw Rezko only a few times a year, yet the FBI's mole claims it was far more often.  Which is correct?

    I think her goal tonight should be to get him on record as many times as she can so that they can put together some good commercials where he contradicts himself (yes on drivers licenses for undocumented workers/no on licenses.  "I passed that bill on nuclear regulation" Nope.  "I voted against the war."  No, you voted against funding.  Same with handguns, Etc)

    Id like to see the law firm billing records (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:02:17 PM EST
    but also everything regarding the house/lot transactions; any letters/communications by Obama on behalf of Rezko.  

    [ Parent ]
    If we get lots of comments, (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 05:59:44 PM EST
    more than 250, the site will slow down and I'll  start a new live-blog thread.  I'm going to put a pre-debate thread up now so we don't end up with 200 before it starts!

    I agree with Kathy (none / 0) (#24)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:05:57 PM EST
    in terms of strategy--getting him on the record.  And yes, the vouchers issue--I hope education is brought up, especially as HRC really does have 35 years of working on it.  

    I also agree with Jeralyn--I mean, I was against the war in 2002, but that doesn't qualify me for president!  And, it's not like he was a big activist, Cindy Sheehan technically "did" more.  

    I really hope Iraq doesn't come up again, but HRC needs to say what Bill did (just not use the word fairytale) b/c once he became a senator, his record is nearly identical to hers! Oh, the hypocracy...

    I hope Obama makes the GE argument (none / 0) (#25)
    by sar75 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:06:21 PM EST
    I think it's entirely relevant and legitimate to point out that in just about every single head-to-head poll Obama comes out ahead of McCain and McCain beats Hillary. I like Hillary and think she'd be a fine president. I'm partial to Obama on a couple of issues and would vote for him one way or the other, even though the decision was not easy.  But what has tipped it for me decisively (and my state is yet to vote) is electability.  I genuinely think that he's the stronger candidate in the GE and Hillary is, unfortunately, the only factor that gives the Republicans a chance this election year. I wish it weren't the case, and I'll back her if she's the nominee, but I think the GE argument is a potentially powerful one that Obama should hammer home.

    Just before super tuesday (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:06:23 PM EST
    when the cast universal healthcare as being a core Democratic value. (Runner up, just before New Hampshire/"tag team.")

    Can you say Kodak Theatre? (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:11:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    in Philly with the (none / 0) (#32)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:11:02 PM EST
    driver's license issue.  Am I right BTD?

    No one bothered to bring up the fact that at the next debate, he butchered the quesiton just like she did--Obama Rules indeed!

    HRC sd. it last debate but (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:18:56 PM EST
    she was too nice about it and he pretty much talked over her.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 06:17:00 PM EST
    Trying to both protect Spitzer and be viable in the GE on that issue was the turning point.
    CNN still does the stupid (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:02:21 PM EST
    "media moment."

    John King? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:03:43 PM EST
    You've got to be kidding me. Not him.

    awesome (none / 0) (#48)
    by dmk47 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:07:53 PM EST
    Love that liveblogging software --- where does it come from?

    Good opening. Concentrate on healthcare. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:08:36 PM EST


    Obama sounds hoarse (none / 0) (#50)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:09:45 PM EST


    I read he has a cold. (none / 0) (#51)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    He probably should have done like the opera singers do and had someone announce he is not in top voice but will persevere.

    [ Parent ]
    I really hoped he wouldn't use the bracelet. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:11:04 PM EST


    I had missed it before -- (none / 0) (#60)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:17:11 PM EST
    African bracelet, it looks like?  Lovely, from what I can see.  But how does he "use" it, other than just wearing it?

    [ Parent ]
    He gets into (none / 0) (#54)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:11:18 PM EST
    repeating "ov" .. sounds like he is having trouble.

    But What Proof Can He Offer to FIx It (none / 0) (#55)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:12:28 PM EST
    She needs to nail him on this point. He's running against Washington

    But what does that mean

    He can't talk about Texas (none / 0) (#58)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:16:26 PM EST
    from a personal perspective.  She reminded us that she has a history with Texas.  As a Texan, I know that will go a long way.  

    Obama and Clinton (none / 0) (#59)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:17:11 PM EST
    barely disagree on this Cuba issue. I see very little light between them.

    Sounds like preconditions to me. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:17:35 PM EST


    She Needs to Push Back on Presidential Meetings (none / 0) (#62)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:18:30 PM EST
    She didn't say no diplomacy

    She said no presidential meeting

    She's doing that now. Good for her. (none / 0) (#65)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:19:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He Came Out Better (none / 0) (#66)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:23:44 PM EST
    It helped him to humble position.

    Of course, Republicans will use that in GE. He made US look like bad guy, which we are. But they never hear it.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama FINALLY talks up the Democratic party (none / 0) (#67)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:25:35 PM EST


    But then makes a unity shtick argument (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:26:08 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hillary's respnse lays out the difference (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:30:09 PM EST
    The diffent theories of change.

    [ Parent ]
    Show Him as "Different" (none / 0) (#69)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:27:08 PM EST
    What does he or even she mean by "special interest."

    He is trying to co-opt her plans.

    King is pushing it thank God.

    Finally Foreclosures (none / 0) (#70)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:28:23 PM EST
    Here is a difference.

    [ Parent ]
    Once again, the superior candidate won't (none / 0) (#72)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:30:39 PM EST
    win.

    Wow (none / 0) (#73)
    by americanincanada on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:31:25 PM EST
    She was amazing on the economy. She made it a democratic issue!!

    UT crowd likes Hillary (none / 0) (#74)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:31:30 PM EST
    I went to UT and it is definitely Obama country...but it seems like she is really resonating with the crowd.

    Time to crown Hillary... (none / 0) (#75)
    by gaitor on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:32:07 PM EST
    ... the strongest debater the democrats have.

    Push Him to Prove It (none / 0) (#78)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:34:12 PM EST
    He keeps latching on to her ideas. He "helped" pass the bill. What does that mean?

    She can't let time go without attacking him. I know what people say about no negative.

    But enough is enough.

    Huh? He did help pass it (none / 0) (#88)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:41:32 PM EST
    If Clinton "helped" pass SCHIP, then Obama can certainly claim that he "helped" pass the immigration bill. Obama DID do a lot of work on immigration reform in the Senate, I'm not sure what else you want.

    A lot of Clinton supporters seem to take it as an article of faith that Clinton has huge legislative accomplishments while Obama has no record. Unfortunately, this just is not true.

    [ Parent ]

    Clarification (none / 0) (#106)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:49:31 PM EST
    She did more than just pass SCHIP

    But that actually is not my point.

    He keeps making the argument via implication that he is the one to bring everyone together. It's part of his unity theme.

    But there is no proof that he alone can do it. W ran on the weak argument that he brought together Texas and Republicans in the "lege." However, that was less than true. Moreover, Texas is very different (or was ) in terms of partisanship. Same IMHO for Illinois.

    That's what I want her to start focusing on . . . even it means "going negative."

    [ Parent ]

    If she wins, it's only because he is sick. I can (none / 0) (#79)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:34:39 PM EST
    hear it now. I'm sure they are both exhausted. Hillary sounds much better though. Not coughing this time

    Obama live blogged. He's a mult-tasker. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:36:24 PM EST


    what is this based on? (none / 0) (#83)
    by rootlessx on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:38:25 PM EST
    One thing Hillasry is oding here, not that it helps necessarily, is that she has been fighting for progressive vaslues for a long time. A lot longer than most of Obama's new supporters who revile her daily. -BTD

    What fights for progressive values? Name her top 4 legislative accomplishments that represent progressive values. Or was it her brave fights to stop winger judges or bad budgets or war spending - oh, those didn't happen either.

    See previous thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:44:58 PM EST
    today on their ratings on progressive bills.

    [ Parent ]
    doesn't answer my question at all (none / 0) (#144)
    by rootlessx on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:08:41 PM EST
    A high number on an opaque "rating" in which non-votes are not counted is really pointless.

    What I want to know is whether any of the Hillary advocates can point to an issue where she has fought the hard fight and won on some progressive issue. Os she didn't even have to win - just prove a point like Dodd did in his filibuster. Since she is both progressive and a fighter, according to her advocates here, surely we can find a couple of cases.

    Voting to fund cluster bombs is not a good example.


    [ Parent ]

    How About... (none / 0) (#166)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:16:21 PM EST
    HEnsuring combat pay for injured veterans and national guardspeople??  She went across the aisle with Sen. Lindsey Graham on that one.  How abt Plan B?  Fought to extend unemployment benefits, and won.  Fought for, and got, body armor for troops.

    That's just for starters.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's doing well (none / 0) (#85)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:39:01 PM EST
    He's picked up some debate skills over the course of the campaign, thank goodness.

    No fireworks so far.

    What debate are you listening to? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by SarahinCA on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:43:36 PM EST
    His performance so far is exactly why he refuses to debate more.

    [ Parent ]
    What's bad about it? (none / 0) (#99)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:46:42 PM EST
    He's doing just fine. What's bad about it?

    I have no problem saying that he pretty much sucked in the earlier debates, but he's much smoother now.

    [ Parent ]

    You are obviously (none / 0) (#111)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:52:53 PM EST
    in denial.  Your guy cannot compete with her.  She is way more knowlegable and actually done a lot more than him.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay (none / 0) (#122)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:58:12 PM EST
    I simply don't think you can make the case that Clinton is being significantly more substantive than Obama in this debate. How so?

    Clinton is a great debater. But Obama is, as I said before, matching her just fine.  

    [ Parent ]

    Liveblog Technology (none / 0) (#86)
    by BDB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:39:50 PM EST
    The Corrente folks are right, your technology is way cool.  The little border image rocks.

    Is It Just Me... (none / 0) (#89)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:41:58 PM EST
    Or does Obama parrot just abt everything Clinton says?  He might add in some stuff here and there, but now that he sees she's getting a good response hammering Bush, HE'S starting to do it.  I just cannot get a sense of who HE is, and for what HE stands, just what he sees as getting applause lines.  OK - the last part was a little snarky...

    is campbell brown's job tonight (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by sancho on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:44:02 PM EST
    to step on hillary's applause? she's done it twice. i believe she is married to a repub. operative.

    [ Parent ]
    married to Dan Senor (none / 0) (#110)
    by SarahinCA on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:52:04 PM EST
    Senor, a Republican strategist as well as a FOX News contributor, previously worked in Iraq as a spokesperson for and senior advisor to U.S. Ambassador Paul Bremer.

    [ Parent ]
    She should do a "there you go again" (none / 0) (#92)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:43:11 PM EST
    on him.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:44:52 PM EST
    They say the same things because they AGREE on the same things. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but I think you have Obama Derangement Syndrome.

    [ Parent ]
    Not only does he parrot (none / 0) (#101)
    by SarahinCA on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:47:13 PM EST
    but he hands it to her to continue on when he's repeated himself...the first question went to him, and he hemmed & hawed so long he actually said "I'll let Senator Clinton answer"

    [ Parent ]
    Obama talks about an "influx" (none / 0) (#90)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:42:28 PM EST
    which bothers me a bit. I don't have any problem with people coming here.

    Obama talks up the DREAM Act OTOH. That's good legislation, and I'm glad he mentioned it.

    Half way through and no why are you still in (none / 0) (#91)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:42:58 PM EST
    this race question. Maybe we are wrong.

    Why doesn't Campbell ever cut off Obama?

    Good Question (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:45:26 PM EST
    No one seems willing to cut him off.  That is why he got 45 minutes of FREE air time on the cable stations the other night.  ANd almost that on Super Tuesday.  He gets more free air time than any candidate I've seen since, well, George Bush!

    [ Parent ]
    I have a great aanswer for hillary if it comes up (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:46:22 PM EST
    Have you been watching this debate? I've wiped the floor with him. How am I losing to this guy?

    [ Parent ]
    You read my mind. . . (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:48:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    John King just gave her the opening. (none / 0) (#108)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:51:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    On debate contrast, I mean. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:51:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    when I was in high school (none / 0) (#100)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:47:12 PM EST
    back in aught...kids were required to learn one foreign language.  Has that changed?

    it hasn't (none / 0) (#113)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:53:35 PM EST
    Not in New York, anyway. But the requirements are fairly low (only a couple years, I think), and frankly even the higher-level language courses aren't nearly as rigorous and challenging as they should be.

    [ Parent ]
    Taking a second language in high school... (none / 0) (#118)
    by BHLinGA on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:55:31 PM EST
    Yes, but did you really learn to speak a foreign language?  Several years of elementary school Spanish, 4 years of high school Spanish, and 2 years of college Spanish and I'd be hard pressed to do more than order a beer and ask where the bathroom is in a Spanish-speaking country.  I hasten to add that I'm not completely unintelligent either.  It just wasn't a priority.  Still isn't in this country.

    [ Parent ]
    yep (none / 0) (#124)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:59:08 PM EST
    That's almost exactly my experience with German. It wasn't until I got serious myself, and started watching German TV shows, listening to Deutsche Welle radio broadcasts every day, reading Harry Potter translations, etc. that I'm now finally approaching something like conversational ability.

    [ Parent ]
    Josh Marshalls "unbiased " (none / 0) (#105)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:49:23 PM EST
    view of Obama's lack of ideas:
    "Yep, Sen. Clinton and I pretty much agree on this one too, let me add a few points -- that's a big win for him because she's the one that needs to shake up the race and find some differences to pivot against."

    Sadly True (none / 0) (#107)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:50:51 PM EST
    He's playing rope a dope.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama (none / 0) (#112)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:53:04 PM EST
    Doesn't look too happy right now. Staring at his hands not smiling at all. Not very engaging.
    / "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes." Macbeth, Wm. Shakespeare
    Does look kind of bad (none / 0) (#116)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:55:05 PM EST
    He's writing some stuff down on his legal pad, apparently.

    [ Parent ]
    The magic is fading? (none / 0) (#114)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:54:50 PM EST
    I love that she just mentioned that his supporter could not name one accomplishment...

    Obama wins by not doing anything dumb (none / 0) (#115)
    by barryluda on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:55:02 PM EST
    Unfortunately, that means he's totally uninspiring.

    I think Clinton is much more interesting, powerful, and strong in this debate.  But is that enough to move the needle?  Maybe, but I think she needs to go after Obama and make him make a mistake.

    Rats (none / 0) (#117)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:55:24 PM EST
    She should have hit harder on him.

    She can't say he hasn't done anything. He can point to some stuff.

    She needs to say that he overpromises.

    He left himself open on delusional. Go for it.

    Obama makes his Broderite argument (none / 0) (#119)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:55:55 PM EST
    ugh

    Partisanship Doesn't Mean Bickering (none / 0) (#120)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:56:11 PM EST
    Hit back

    Her goes to (none / 0) (#121)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:56:12 PM EST
    the sarcasm... makes him lokk arrogant.

    Um... (none / 0) (#123)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:58:42 PM EST
    Makes him LOOK arrogant?  He has come across as arrogant almost every time I have seen him speak.  ANd he gets ANGRY when ANYONE questions him.  Again, reminds me of the guy who's in the WHite House right NOW!

    [ Parent ]
    lol (none / 0) (#126)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:59:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Meant He (none / 0) (#127)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:00:10 PM EST
    not her

    [ Parent ]
    Silly Season (none / 0) (#125)
    by cdalygo on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 07:59:32 PM EST
    He's really condescending with that one as well.

    Come on do something.

    He's leaving himself wide open on the argument she has missed all night. He has no real proof that he is different.

    she needs to mention (none / 0) (#147)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:09:50 PM EST
    the mailer he sent out on "Hillarycare" and the one attacking Bill Clinton's record.

    Silly season indeed.

    [ Parent ]

    For the third time (none / 0) (#128)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:00:24 PM EST
    Obama says "Senator Clinton has a fine record" dismissively.  

    Not For the First Time... (none / 0) (#148)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:10:12 PM EST
    He has done that in just abt every debate, made some condescending crack like that.  

    And not just in the debates - he has said more stuff like that in his speeches.

    How IS he going to unify the Dems when he sends out mailers filled with lies abt her??  When he says they'll be friends after this contest, I just find myself thinking, "don't bet on it!"  Maybe that's just me...

    [ Parent ]

    change you can xerox! (none / 0) (#129)
    by Klio on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:00:36 PM EST
    heh
    Her best (none / 0) (#131)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:03:00 PM EST
    one tonight!!!

    [ Parent ]
    did she say that?!?! (none / 0) (#135)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:05:14 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Nice line (none / 0) (#138)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:07:37 PM EST
    Whoever came up with that one deserves some credit.

    [ Parent ]
    Panders to Edwards for support? (none / 0) (#130)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:02:46 PM EST
    Great answer. She needed to go head on and she just did.

    BTD, they asked about the speech copying. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:03:33 PM EST


    His retort didn't land... (none / 0) (#133)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:03:56 PM EST


    Obama's doing bad now (none / 0) (#134)
    by Korha on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:05:08 PM EST
    What is with that legal pad, seriously. Look up.

    The reason: (none / 0) (#139)
    by ShelbyK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:07:41 PM EST
    He doesn't have Ted Sorenson or Duval to pen it for him, so he's having to pu