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Texas Post-Debate Live Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:49:30 PM EST
Tags: Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Democrats Debate (all tags)
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(Comments closed here. New thread is here.)

The debate's over. Who won? What did you think?

Update: (Big Tent Democrat): I thought Hillary whupped him good. David Gergen thought it was even until Hillary's last answer, he thinks it was her best moment of the campaign. I don't see it. Go figure. Watching more of the pundits, they really have no idea what to say anymore. They really are useless. But who cares what they think?

Poll below.

< Hillary-Obama Texas Debate: Live Blog I | Late Night: Post Debate Thread II >

Poll

Who Won the Debate
♦ Hillary Clinton 75%
♦ Barack Obama 15%
♦ Tie 9%

Votes: 132
Results | Other Polls

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    • Display: Sort:
    Texas Post-Debate Live Thread | 213 comments (213 topical)
    No one "whupped" anyone. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:25 PM EST
    are you serious?  It didn't happen.  This was muzzle to muzzle, no one won.

    Well (4.50 / 8) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:49 PM EST
    You convinced me.

    Obama's was UNBELIEVABLE tonight.

    I ESPECIALLY loved his Kumbaya Schtick. LOOOOVED it.

    And his energy early in the debate was AMAZING!!!!!!

    and the flip flop on meeting with Castro? BRILLLIANT!!!!!

    Oh and on health care, INCREDIBLE!!!!!!

    You are so right. OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA!

    Sheesh. Can you have an original thought?

    [ Parent ]

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:40 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Did I just have my posts deleted? (none / 0) (#176)
    by sar75 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:00 PM EST
    For pointing out that Compound did not try to convince you that Obama was brilliant, that he just disagreed and said it was a draw?

    [ Parent ]
    Not by me (none / 0) (#179)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:57 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I deleted (none / 0) (#187)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    comments that were sniping and insults between commenters and Big Tent. This thread is about the debate and insults and personal attacks and conversations will be deleted.

    [ Parent ]
    I am not going to insult this site.,. (none / 0) (#220)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:13:49 PM EST
     

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has (none / 0) (#146)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:37:41 PM EST
    charisma that Clinton doesn't. Must be something wrong with Obama.

    He's won 11 contests in a row. Must be something wrong with Obama.

    He's as poised as she is, and as competent. Obama's unity message could be the thing that breaks the back of the republican party, and is more shrewd than a litany of qualifications, which of course both of them possess.


    [ Parent ]

    This is about the debate (none / 0) (#172)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:47:01 PM EST
    Jeralyn just warned about going off topic.

    [ Parent ]
    It's really up to the voters now (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Paladin on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:16:31 PM EST
    We're probably talking about a small percentage of voters who are undecided.  Did either one sway that group?  That's the question.

    Here is a Meyers-Briggs like (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:22:36 PM EST
    assessment of the personalities of Clinton, Obama, and McCain:

    SLATE

    She did a great job (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by riddlerandy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:22:55 PM EST
    it will be a nice swan song

    I loved Clinton's last response (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:24:07 PM EST
    but it wasn't enough in a debate in which he was as poised as she was. I don't see her capturing momentum in the wake of 10 losses in a row.

    Her xerox line was desperate, to say the least, as is the ridiculous non-controversy over so-called plagiarism. Really, the low point of the debate.

    Bottom line, Obama takes Texas and probably Ohio as well.

    You are dreaming (none / 0) (#121)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:29:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Obama's (none / 0) (#185)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:04 PM EST
    beating Clinton in her own home demographics. Why? Not because Clinton is a pushover, a poor speaker, but because he's running a better campaign with a unity strategy that's more motivating than what Clinton's offering.

    I'd vote for Clinton, and I'd vote for Obama. Neither of them are the genuine populist I'd like to see in the driver's seat, so I really don't get the bitterness and antagonism of a choice between two largely similar candidates.

    I really don't get criticizing someone for having charisma, or inspiring stadiums full of potential voters. I see the unity strategy as a way to undercut McCain's independent appeal.

    [ Parent ]

    Tomorrow at work, I'll hear people (none / 0) (#188)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:29 PM EST
    laughing about "change you can xerox".  Bet on it.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed... (none / 0) (#141)
    by ROK on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:56 PM EST
    An average closer does not win a debate. Even if it did, it won't give her that bounce...

    [ Parent ]
    My reaction (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by BethanyAnne on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:38:10 PM EST
    will probably be deleted as soon as I post it.  I've been hanging around for a few days, and it looks to me like Big Tent Democrat deletes anything negative towards Mrs. Clinton.  But, I'll still try.

    I've only gotten to see some clips on YouTube, but the linked clip at the top of this thread has me furious.  When she talks about the soldier with half of a face left, I just get livid.  That's the war SHE authorized.  A vote she won't apologize for.  She chose to trust W.  And every time she mentions the pain that that mistake has caused, I just get mad all over again. The time for caring and for that vaunted experience of hers to shine through was when that vote was before her.

    I hope this is not trolling.  But that's honestly what I think, and I've tried to be civil.

    Why would I delete this? (3.00 / 2) (#155)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:42:01 PM EST
    You made an argument respectfully.

    Next time, leave out the attack on me.

    [ Parent ]

    Do you honestly think Obama would have voted (3.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Angel on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:45:12 PM EST
    NO if he had been in the senate at the time?  The vote was 99-1.  And the senators were voting based on many things, not just trusting Dubya.  The mood of the country at the time was very fragile and I can understand their votes even though I disagreed at the time as well.  We'll never know what "intelligence" they had or did not have; we are not privy to everything they were told, lies or not.  And for the record, Obama has voted to keep funding the war along with most of the other Democrats in the senate.  So if he is so opposed to war then why the votes to extend funding, etc.?  And I find that you must have a very hard heart to not believe that Hillary Clinton would be concerned about a maimed soldier. Get over your hatred.

    [ Parent ]
    The vote was 77-23 (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:08:23 PM EST
    not 99-1.

    And yes, it is pretty clear how Obama would have voted. No.

    [ Parent ]

    i delete most of the comments (1.50 / 2) (#215)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:08:00 PM EST
    on these threads. I don't tolerate insults and I don't respond to them. I just zap them and the sniping that follows.

    Your observation, like Big Tent says, is fine.

    [ Parent ]

    Fact Check (1.00 / 1) (#186)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:13 PM EST
    Clinton, along with 76 other senators, voted to authorize UN inspectors in Iraq to lok for WMD, with war AS A LAST RESORT.  Perhaps you have forgotten how the WHOLE COUNTRY was giving BUsh whatever he wanted after 9/11, but the authorization was NOT one to launch a war.  She has said, over and over, that she voetd the way she did given the evidence she had at the time, and PERSONAL ASSURANCES from the White House that they weren't going to attack Iraq.  Edwards voted for it, too, btw - not that anyone seems to reember THAT.  How many ways dos she have to say it was the wrong thing to do, and she'll get the troops out ASAP if president??  

    How can you COMPLETELY ignore EVERYTHING else this woman has done for this country, especially the poor, women, children, and yes, VETERANS!!  SHe has been on the forefront of getting them the care they need/deserve, getting the troops the armor they need?

    AND - as I have said - OBAMA HAS VOTED TO FUND THE WAR EVER SINCE HE GOT INTO THE SENATE!!!!  HE stumped for Joe Lieberman, his mentor, and one of the BIGGEST warmongers in the Senate, AGAINST the ANTI-War Democratic candidate in CT.  Obama has ALSO said that he doesn't know HOW he would have voted - it's easy from the cheap seats, and while I am, and have been, completely opposed to the war in Iraq, context is important.  Just sayin.

    [ Parent ]

    I also thought it was close to a tie (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:42:55 PM EST
    I thought that Clinton won the first half, Obama the second half, and was pretty much a draw, except for the very last question, where it appeared Obama didn't realize it was his last statement and Hillary hit a home run.  (I'm curious about the comments that "but what I've been through is nothing compared to that of ordinary Americans" is from Bill's campaign).

    All in all, I'd give a slight edge to Hillary, most fairly close to a draw.  Unfortunately for her, it may not be enough to counter the trends.

    The best part, imho, is that the moderators asked consistently good questions (as some other blogger wrote, see what happens when you get rid of the Blitzers and the Russerts?!).  And that Obama and Clinton seemed pretty amiable toward each other.

    Thankfully, they do realize that they are on the same team in the big picture.  (And there were sure a lot more polite than some of their supporters are to each other).

    He got to answer the question first. Why are (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:48:53 PM EST
    some people acting like he had no chance for rebuttal. The question was what is the biggest challenge they have faced. He could have answered anyway he wanted to. His answer was similar to the type that he made fun of John Edwards for.

    She brought the house down and the fact that it was a healing moment for the two of them should speak volumes to Obama supporters who think she'll destroy the party in order to get power.

    The party means more to her than the Presidency and I'm so damn angry at people who can't see that.

    Not meaning you at all DC wonk. Just a general vent at the media and blogs.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks Teresa (5.00 / 1) (#225)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:25 PM EST
    You're right.  It does speak volumes to those Obama supporters who think she'd destroy the party to get power.  (I also hope the debate convinces some Clinton supporters that Obama does indeed stand for Dem values and is not an empty suit).

    I absolutely loved her answer to the SuperDelegate question (her answer was a dismissal with a wave of her hand and the comment "it'll all be settled before then"), and it also made me think she's been terribly mis-served by her advisers (her campaign shouldn't have touched that issue leading up to Wisconsin).

    The party means more to her than the Presidency and I'm so damn angry at people who can't see that.

    I agree with you 100% on that one.  

    [ Parent ]

    If he didn't recognize that as the (none / 0) (#189)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:37 PM EST
    pre-prepped closing statement question, then he wasn't prepared.  That is another lost point for him.

    [ Parent ]
    debate (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by JakeB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:49:29 PM EST
    Sorry folks. I love Hil but she's running for vice-president.

    Impressive win for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Tano on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:56:56 PM EST
    Matched her on the substance. Seemed commanding, presidential, while she seemed to just try to gush out all manner of standard lines.

    She totally blew the CiC question - managed do discuss why she could be CiC for two minutes without even mentioning the military!

    She made a terrible stumble with that stupid Xerox comment.

    But she did show great class in that closing valedictory - a bit over the top perhaps to say how honored she was to be on the same stage with Barack Obama. But very classy none the less.

    This race is over.

    Nice Tano. I have never not voted (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:04:50 PM EST
    before but you sure tempt me to do so.

    [ Parent ]
    A win for Obama; a loss in the fight (none / 0) (#222)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:13:50 PM EST
    for UHC.

    [ Parent ]
    Gee (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:56:59 PM EST
    Her comparing UHC to SSA and Medicare is not a good thing. Those are budget busting programs that are poorly managed.

    Let me guess: you're one of those "Obama Republicans"?

    beat me to it (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:00:29 PM EST
    I was about to say "wow, that's revealing." Comparing universal health care to social security is exactly what she needed to do, although I thought she could be a bit more explicit, describing the public insurance plan with subsidies, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Can mr knowitall tell me how (none / 0) (#218)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:11:29 PM EST
    much of the SSA budget is waste??


    [ Parent ]
    SSA (none / 0) (#234)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:18:14 PM EST
    is probably the absolutely least wasteful program that the Feds run.

    FWIW, I thought her comparison to SSA was a smart comparison.  This is an issue I agree with Hillary on.

    [ Parent ]

    This says it all right there (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:57:37 PM EST
    Her comparing UHC to SSA and Medicare is not a good thing. Those are budget busting programs that are poorly managed.

    Exactly the kind of anti-Democratic arguments I've had with Obama supporters on Dkos. You guys are not Democrats. If you are, I'm not.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#213)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:06:49 PM EST
    I realized if the folks that make such arguments are Democrats (the ones above, the Monica in a blue dress, the Whitewater "scandal" etc), then I'm not....

    And this is why I am an independent, not a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, other Teresa, I'm still a Democrat but (none / 0) (#226)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:14:31 PM EST
    I will fight any person who calls himself a Democrat and makes statements like that. Can you believe we have reached the point where people are kidding themselves this much? Social Security and Medicare are bad? They are so confused. They need to be voting for McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    It's true. (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:17:13 PM EST
    They've really blurred the line between Republicans and Democrats...something I never would have thought could happen during this election cycle....I really thought this election would be about showing our differences.

    However, I guess to beat Hillary means you have to do it?  

    It's pretty sad.

    [ Parent ]

    excuse me (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:58:11 PM EST
    but the silly season arrived the day people started using the word "mania" in their screen names.

    The claim that he has better judgment is strange, especially given that he votes along with her on Iraq and many other issues.  He made a speech in a campaign he had no chance of losing to a constituency that wanted to hear it, and now that speech is supposed to be --all by itself--the evidence of political courage and good judgment.  Sorry, but it's just hope that makes you believe McCain doesn't have more authority with independents than Barack on this subject.  

    This is old ground, however, and you aren't looking to be convinced.

    I was pretty concerned (4.66 / 3) (#17)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:01 PM EST
    for Hillary up until the last moment in the debate.  I didn't think she did what she needed to do to turn this thing around.  

    He has improved his debating and the contrast in terms of their debating skills was not as stark as it had been. He was eating at her strength.

    I also would have liked her to use more "fighting for Americans" language.  I think that is a clear philosophical difference between these two, and I think it is a very legitimate distinction.

    Everything changed in that last moment.  She very effectively hammered at his strength, appealing to emotion, but in a way that was very grounded in the lives of Americans.

    Whether that moment will be enough is another question all together.

    Did we see the same debate? (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by goldberry on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:26:03 PM EST
    I don't think he has improved at all.  And this is where his immaturity is most obvious: his answers ramble.  He does not come from a "center point".  It's like having to write an essay on a book you didn't finish.  
    She, on the other hand, read the book, discussed it with her colleagues and thought about it until she understood what the author was saying and could point out where the author could have improved.  
    It's not experience exactly. It is mindfulness.  No, that's not the right word.  It is like being "centered", knowing what the boundaries and parameters are and how they relate to each other.  She has it, he doesn't.  
    There is no comparison.  
    If he weren't the token male, it's hard to imagine how they would have ended up on the same stage.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#140)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:35 PM EST
    but I am trying to imagine myself as the average American voter (which is probably a futile endeavor).

    I am not sure that voters value the ability to cohesively flit between policy issues, Exhibit A begin our current president.

    [ Parent ]

    The Xerox line didn't work (4.50 / 2) (#41)
    by cygnus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:20 PM EST
    But it was worth it. Obama got rattled big time.  His next few answers were really bad.

    Still - (4.20 / 5) (#116)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:25:33 PM EST
    If HE had said something like that, people would have laughed - I bet you.  She is held to a TOTALLY different standard that he is.  He can attack her left and right, making negative statements abt her character, and when she retaliates, everyone freaks out,a nd says she shouldn't have done that.  I think it is the sexist double standard with which many women deal on a regular basis.  IMHO, that is.

    [ Parent ]
    The Xerox worked (3.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:08:44 PM EST
    The audience may not have liked it, but it worked because the line rattled Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    IT probably worked with the TV (3.66 / 3) (#53)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:14 PM EST
    audience too.

    [ Parent ]
    it worked with me (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:35 PM EST
    I thought it was good, but like others, I think it wasn't worth it.

    [ Parent ]
    Tomorrow I'll hear people talk (none / 0) (#165)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:44 PM EST
    about the Xerox line and those last minutes.  They were kickin!

    [ Parent ]
    You are right (3.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:37 PM EST
    I didn't want her to do it, but it did rattle him.  He kept fiddling what that legal pad.

    [ Parent ]
    Her final statement (4.33 / 6) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:55:12 PM EST
    is the story of the night and will get all the attention.

    Do you agree with CNN that it was (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:57:59 PM EST
    her "valedictory"?  

    To me, that shows unbelievable media bias, far beyond their charge.  And the followup comments keep calling the end of the campaign -- "she is desperate," etc.  Now Cooper claims that she said it.  Now Gergen think she was about "old themes," and she was "hectoring."  Idiots.  And I fear it is worse on MSNBC but can't bring myself back there again.

    [ Parent ]

    It is very clear (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:41 PM EST
    that CNN and MSNBC have "anointed" Obama as the Democratic nominee and will not criticize him. I have stopped watching most of the news channels, opting for the Food Network and Soap Operas instead.
    / "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes." Macbeth, Wm. Shakespeare
    [ Parent ]
    MSNBC clearly (none / 0) (#81)
    by coigue on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:42 PM EST
    CNN - I disagree.

    [ Parent ]
    Josh Marshall said she used (none / 0) (#10)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:52 PM EST
    Bill C's 1992 words in her final answer.
    Is that right?

    [ Parent ]
    Josh Marshall (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by themomcat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:59:25 PM EST
    is pro Obama and made it clear he does not like Clinton.
    / "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes." Macbeth, Wm. Shakespeare
    [ Parent ]
    I understand that perfectly. (none / 0) (#21)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST
    I'd like to know what remarks he is comparing with.
    I can't believe she was quoting Bill C. verbatim.

    [ Parent ]
    that may be so, but it doesn't answer a legitimate (none / 0) (#27)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:08 PM EST
    question. I thought it sounded familiar.

    (disclosure: I support the Democratic nominee)

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Iraq vets? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:05:11 PM EST
    Seriously doubt it.

    Josh is making stuff up again.

    [ Parent ]

    No the whatever happens we will be alright (none / 0) (#43)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:36 PM EST
    lines

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Um (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:04 PM EST
    Ok. Hard to imagine that is an original line to anybody.

    I think it would be petty to make something of it and Mr. Plagiarism does not matter seems like a bad candidate for that.

    [ Parent ]

    "Fired up" (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:18 PM EST
    is also a very original line.  It amazing me that professional writers have a hard time distinguishing between unapologetic plagiarism and similar thematic elements or use of popular maxims.  

    [ Parent ]
    "fired up" (none / 0) (#144)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:36:51 PM EST
    ... is not an original line.

    It is a chant that has been used for decades in the labor and community organizing movements.

    "Fired up!  Ready to Go!" is something that people have been using at protests and rallies for years.

    [ Parent ]

    I was being sarcastic (none / 0) (#157)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:42:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "All Fired Up" (none / 0) (#212)
    by xjt on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:05:21 PM EST
    Was a Pat Benatar song in the 80s. That phrase is used all the time.

    [ Parent ]
    It wouldn't the media darling (none / 0) (#68)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:15 PM EST
    it would be the media darling's surrogates in the media.

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    How sad. (none / 0) (#76)
    by Compound F on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:42 PM EST
    Mr. Plagiarism?  You stoop to that?

    [ Parent ]
    Its been said the candidates don't want (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:01 PM EST
    BTD as a supporter.

    BTD is a nominal Obama supporter. `I think he wants a candidate who is part Obama and part Clinton.  

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Me too, actually. Wouldn't that be a heck of a (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    candidate?

    [ Parent ]
    Think FDR and WJC. (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:24:49 PM EST
    I would be happy with a unity ticket BTW

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    None of the instances (hers or his) (none / 0) (#96)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:34 PM EST
    fit the definition of plagiarism. We should try to use accurate language when we discuss things.

    [ Parent ]
    My mother says something (none / 0) (#162)
    by kredwyn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:44:25 PM EST
    similar...

    "No matter what happens, everything will be okay."

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds like the lyric of some (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:56 PM EST
    rock song, but, how would I know.  I only listen to classical music.

    [ Parent ]
    It is familiar (none / 0) (#115)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:25:24 PM EST
    It is something I've heard Edwards say a couple of times, including in his "suspension of campaign" speech.

    [ Parent ]
    just got an email from the campaign: (none / 0) (#192)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:54:03 PM EST

    * Sen. Obama is running on words and promises but tonight said he opposed lifting the Cuba embargo even though he said he was for doing so when he ran for the Senate in 2004.

    [ Parent ]
    Sure Josh. He visited a hospital for injured (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:01:32 PM EST
    Iraqi vets too.

    That final comment of hers was a classy swan song and I admit it made me tear up. Obama supporters need to realize that she could hurt his GE campaign and chose not to. She's a Democrat to the end.

    Gloria whatshername is an idiot. She says there is no difference on healthcare? That is the difference to me.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, i agree completely (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:02:46 PM EST
    Health care is the defining difference.
    Obama just doesn't care about it, except as a talking point.


    [ Parent ]
    I worry that he (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:07:52 PM EST
    may actually believe himself, that his plan is as good in covering as many.  It just is not so, but if he goes forward, we really will not get good health care coverage.

    [ Parent ]
    I think he does believe it (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:23:51 PM EST
    Self-deception is the most efficient road to authenticity.

    [ Parent ]
    There are so many (none / 0) (#128)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:32:17 PM EST
    facets to his performance, it's difficult to point to one single moment defining his position on a particular issue.  It's all very fluid and vague.  That's what I'm seeing.  The blank screen.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh no, I am certain he does not. (none / 0) (#51)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:08:47 PM EST
    He is too educated to know otherwise.
    The logical inference is that he DOES NOT WANT UHC.
    In fact, UHC goes against his core principles---which do not belong to the Democratic Party.

    [ Parent ]
    I've concluded he thinks it (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:29 PM EST
    is too politically risky to talk about UHC with mandates, and he is probably correct.  

    [ Parent ]
    But he HAS talked about mandates! (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:16:20 PM EST
    He has ruled them out.
    It would be one thing if he were being cautious, but no, he's making sure that affordable universal insurance will not happen under him.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama has mandates for parents -- (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by jawbone on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:40:37 PM EST
    they must insure their children under his plan.

    I believe this was brought up in a debate, but I'm not sure. I've sure thought about it!

    BTW, to Gloria Berger(?), or whichever Gloria was on CNN, who has health insurance I am quite sure--the differences in the two plans mean nothing because she probably doensn't even know someone for whom having universal healthcare is, well, and existential issue.

    Like cancer victims who have no health insurance--and some of them aren't cancer patients bcz they can't afford being patients until it's too late.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, yes, he's a hypocrite too. (none / 0) (#160)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:43:01 PM EST
    but mandates for healthy young adults are essential.
    Period.


    [ Parent ]
    That must be his campaign's (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:26:09 PM EST
    read on what the likely voters want.  He may be correct, as many people have employer group health plan or medicare.  Younger people with a good income don't think they'll ever get sick, or, if they do, they'll wade through it.  

    [ Parent ]
    So you're agreeing with me (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:28:12 PM EST
    that Obama is taking UHC off the table for political gain?
    Of course young healthy people don't want to buy insurance---that's the reason for mandates!

    [ Parent ]
    Average people's problems (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:03:39 PM EST
    are greater than "the hits I've been taking"? Is that the line he's talking about? I noticed that Obama used "working harder for less", which was a staple of Clinton's '92 speeches and "good jobs at good wages", which was Michael Dukakis's semi-official slogan.

    [ Parent ]
    There's already a diary (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    up about this over at Orange Obama, based solely on JMM's quote---no, like, evidence, of course.

    [ Parent ]
    The Politico has evidence (none / 0) (#210)
    by LiberallyDebunked on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:03:15 PM EST
    of a similarity to something Edwards said and Marshall has the test of the Bill Clinton line that was similar as well.

    [ Parent ]
    she stole (none / 0) (#33)
    by Nasarius on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:18 PM EST
    The "no matter what happens, I'm going to be fine" line from Edwards. Dunno about the rest. It certainly sounded genuine to me.

    [ Parent ]
    MSNBC said Edwards (none / 0) (#196)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:55:16 PM EST
    They said it was John Edwards who said we will be fine. I can not read the thread below so someone else might have mentioned it.

    [ Parent ]
    obama won (4.20 / 5) (#59)
    by Turkana on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:13 PM EST
    because the hairpieces say so. just as bush "tied" gore in their first debate.

    The talking heads are stupid (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:01 PM EST
    I expect Hillary to get a small bounce out of this.

    [ Parent ]
    Stop!! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    I'm sick, and making me laugh just makes me start coughing!!!  :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:18:27 PM EST
    I do not think it will work that way now.

    [ Parent ]
    i'd love to be proven wrong (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Turkana on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:23:54 PM EST
    but i think you overestimate the voters.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh Obama will probably win (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    But ths debate helped Hillary as most debates have.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh yeah.. btw, some Orange (4.66 / 3) (#71)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:12:42 PM EST
    Obamacon was using the W. standard for Obama: "He hasn't made any gaffes yet".

    [ Parent ]
    Olbermann thinks Hillary's last comment (4.00 / 2) (#60)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:10:58 PM EST
    is a signal that she was raising the white flag of surrender.  What's up with that?  These pundits are real idiots.

    I dunno (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:55 PM EST
    but a few have said it.

    Why? Gawd only knows.

    It actually does not hurt Hillary so it just sounds weird.

    [ Parent ]

    Totally... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:19:19 PM EST
    Drank the Kool Aide.  I cannot believe how these "journalists" don't even TRY for the appearance of neutrality anymore!  WHat the heck happened to journalistic ethics?

    And Olbermann, particularly, was hard for me.  I thought he was the Edward R. Murrow of our generation, but sadly, no.  Just like any of those peeps at Fox Noise, only on the left.

    [ Parent ]

    CNN: It was her "valedictory" (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:34:20 PM EST
    I am so disgusted.  I did not hear that at all -- but that's what the media wanted to hear, so that must be what it was.  Fools, all of them, and even Gergen going along with that groupthink tonight.

    How one can see that, after her two hours of clearly being a fighting candidate . . . gosh, she must have made up her mind during the last commercial to just give up?  Fools, all of them.

    [ Parent ]

    I think Hillary did pretty well (4.00 / 4) (#79)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:08 PM EST
    I liked how she included Kosovo and Serbia when discussing foreign policy.  To me it was a great reminder of the wide range of foreign policy issues a President must always keep their pulse on.  And I'm constantly impressed on how well she shines on healthcare.  She is able to bring the passion home there.  

    And a question - Obama referred to "Spanish surnames."  Is it just me or was that sort of a faux-pas?  Just asking.  Not trying to be ridiculous.

    Clinton won (4.00 / 1) (#135)
    by mindfulmission on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:34:50 PM EST
    I definitely think that Clinton won this debate.

    But with that said, I don't think that she completely dominated the debate, and I don't think that Obama was bad.

    In my opinion, Obama had to really lose this debate for it to really matter, and that didn't happen.

    Also... I find it quite funny that people think that because Hillary is a better debater, that she is more qualified to be President.  I have long said that Hillary is a better debater.  But I am pretty sure that winning made for tv debates is not the only qualification for being President, or if it is even a qualification at all.

    Debates (none / 0) (#168)
    by Shawn on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:45:50 PM EST
    But I am pretty sure that winning made for tv debates is not the only qualification for being President, or if it is even a qualification at all.

    The '04 Bush campaign sends you their love.


    [ Parent ]

    To the extent that (none / 0) (#180)
    by hitchhiker on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:49:12 PM EST
    it means you understand issues well enough to talk off the top of your head about them, I think it does reflect a necessary qualification for the job.

    She's good in debates because she's been thinking about so many aspects of the government for so long; she doesn't have to meander all over the map trying to say something.  

    All other things being equal, I'd rather have a president who has as much background as possible.

    [ Parent ]

    Some mediocre movies... (3.66 / 3) (#1)
    by magster on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:53:54 PM EST
    are saved by a great ending.

    I don't think Obama appreciated that he needed to make a closing statement until it was too late and Clinton got a standing O.

    I thought he was winning, but the last impression is the lasting impression.

    That standing O for Clinton was (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:55:03 PM EST
    wonderful and deserved.  She won tonight.

    [ Parent ]
    She did (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by vigkat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:09:29 PM EST
    And I am proud of her.  I cannot imagine the patience and endurance and self-restraint and moderation it took to carry on with dignity in this particular situation.  I probably would have slapped him somewhere along the way.

    [ Parent ]
    she won on... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by jor on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:31:05 PM EST
    ... the ending. Especially in comparison to obama's which was a ramble.

    Good ending impression.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by muffie on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:35:18 PM EST
    think Obama realized that was the last question.  It sounded like he asked someone "is that it?" after Hillary's standing O.  

    [ Parent ]
    The spinning begins (3.66 / 3) (#2)
    by ivs814 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:54:45 PM EST
    I don't know what debate the CNN panel watched but they obviously can't help themselves.  They love Obama and he is always given a pass.

    She obviously won.  

    No Kidding. (none / 0) (#14)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:58:08 PM EST
    For some reason, I have been watching these bozos on CNN.  I haven't the FOGGIEST what debate they were watching.  And I am VERY frustrated that Clinton was not given as much time as Obama, as ALWAYS.  He was allowed to talk ad nauseum, but whenever she tries to make her point, she gets interrupted.  AND, she did NOT get to rebut Obama attacking her on judgment!!!

    [ Parent ]
    Candy Crowley (none / 0) (#80)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:15:35 PM EST
    annoys me to no end.  The only time I like watching her is when is when she is asked a question on somewhat breaking news and has no knowledge of what the other pundits have said.  It's quite amusing to see her attempt to come up with her own analysis.

    [ Parent ]
    It's exhausting (3.66 / 3) (#7)
    by Kensdad on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 08:56:20 PM EST
    to watch Obama who is clearly not as qualified to be president as Hillary.  Much of what he has to say seems to be lifted from elsewhere and his signature issue of working with the other side to end the bickering in Washington is total b.s.  the republicans don't want to work with the dems (just listen to limbaugh today about how if mccain has learned anything from the NYT flap it is that you can't trust the dems.)  i want a president who will fight to reverse the damage of the bush administration and the republican party.  not someone who will negotiate with the republicans who are about to be vanquished into minority status.

    Exactly Kinsdad (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by peon on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    This is my main beef with Obama. On most issues they seem to be in the same a ballpark, which is a moderate democrat park. I am angry at Hillary for being too cooperative with Bush on the war and think anyone who supported the war is not fit to be president. Unfortunately in my book Obama's record is no different, despite a few speeches when he was running for senate. We all know candidates lie to get elected. All the candidates that had principled stances on the war are not in the running.
    Getting back to my main beef (sorry when I think about the war I get angry) with Obama, Kinsdad says it well this tiresome stuff about being bipartisan. Being bipartisan is something Rpublicans will never do. They can even tolerate moderate Republicans and have purged the party of them. I want a Democrat that realizes this is a fight.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary was outstanding - Obama was unfocused (3.66 / 3) (#34)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:04:34 PM EST
    It was Hillary's night.  She demonstrated how she may not be a great orator with a teleprompter, but she takes no back seat to Obama when presenting her ideas impromptu.
    BTW (3.66 / 3) (#62)
    by andgarden on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:11:13 PM EST
    Keith Olbermann is totally missing this. He must not be watching the same debate I am.

    Kool aid drinkers all.

    Remember Obama won the pre-Super Tuesday (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:17:03 PM EST
    debate too according to them.

    [ Parent ]
    count me as gone from countdown (5.00 / 3) (#126)
    by hellothere on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
    and probably won't return. i have lost respect for keith.

    [ Parent ]
    About the Next Debate... (3.66 / 3) (#77)
    by AmyinSC on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 09:13:54 PM EST