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Bold, Persistent Experimentation

The country needs and, unless I mistake its temper, the country demands bold, persistent experimentation. It is common sense to take a method and try it: If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something. -- FDR

Paul Krugman:

So it’s time to try something different. [. . .] The point is that we need to start doing something more than, and different from, what we’re already doing. And the experience of other countries suggests that it’s time for a policy that explicitly and directly targets job creation.

The fierce urgency of now.

Speaking for me only

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    They better not wait too long (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:20:25 AM EST
    Neither the war strategy or health care reform will matter to most Americans if they're out of work, lost their homes or are seeing these things happening to their family or friends.

    Nothing else is more important right now. We're talking about survival. This is an in your face reality. Not an abstract war that most people have buried in the back of their mind.

    Millions of peoples lives are being torn apart through no fault of their own. They see Wall St. and Washington as the enemy. It was their combined poor management that brought this on. Yet they've propped each other up and have walked away from the mess.

    Unless something is done to restore the balance, we may see a level of social unrest in this country that we haven't seen since the 60's.


    The "theory of rising expectations" (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:49:28 AM EST
    supports your analysis.  It explains the unrest of the '60s, after the economy and some court rulings and other indicators in the '50s raised the expectations of many Americans who still found themselves outside looking in.  

    The '80s were like the '50s that way, but Clinton managed in the '90s to not only raise expectations for many more Americans but also to actually help them.  Then came the return to the rich getting richer . . . and the signs of the crash that was coming.  So many Americans still just beginning to get their share, or still on the margins, went to the polls for Obama.

    And Obama raised expectations a lot.  So, yes, I agree with you that the factors are there that could suggest, if people's expectations are not met, for rising frustrations and possible reactions of anger unseen for some time.

    Parent

    The 90s (none / 0) (#30)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:23:14 AM EST
    was also a period during which large scale exodus of manufacturing and engineering jobs occured from the United States to Asia. We are still paying the price for the policies of the four presidencies preceding Obama in this regard. If only the Clinton Presidency had been less Republican-lite and been bold enough to listen more to Pres. Carter and focussed on building an economy based on foreign oil independence, our manufacturing and engineering and jobs base would be on firmer footing than it is now!
    That is however water under the bridge. We have to rebuild now.


    Parent
    Yes. Just as before (none / 0) (#32)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:32:38 AM EST
    the previous economic debacles in our history, there were mistakes made and foundations laid from which we ought to learn.  But we won't. . . .

    Parent
    History (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:48:41 AM EST
    Somewhere along the way, history seems to have become a lost subject. It seems we are caught in a loop where we continually make the same dumb mistakes. I'm not sure whether it's stupidity or arrogance. But we never seem to learn.

    Parent
    so let me get this straight (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by azhealer on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:22:29 AM EST
    bold experimentation for health car policies that have never been proven to do what they claim...

    but government will prevent patients from getting any health care that has not been 'proven' to work.

    government shall have free reign.

    Sick Americans shall only get what government decides.

    And keeping campaign promises- on the individual mandate, taxes, choice, DADT, same sex marriage--- obviously fit into the 'free reign' category to be jettisoned at the first sign of resistance.

    BTD (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:25:55 AM EST
    I'll give you credit for your continuous discussion of the need for leadership but I'm afraid it's not going to happen no matter matter how much you or I or anybody might want it. I simply just don't think Obama is capable of doing what you want or has the desire.

    Obama is a shrewd politican (none / 0) (#5)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:45:27 AM EST
    I think it's important to continue to push for bold leadership. One point in Obama favor is that he is a politician. Another is his ego. He's always managed to land feet first. If he sees his presidency crumbling, he won't go down without a fight.

    Hopefully Obama and his advisors have had a wake up call from the HCR debacle. If they have any brains, they'll realize that if they're going to succeed, they're going to have to do it without the aid of the Republicans.

    Parent

    Respectfully disagree (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by kmblue on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:09:11 AM EST
    If Obama was so shrewd, he would not be about to go down to defeat on health care IMHO.
    Timothy Egan has an OpEd in the NY Times about the rage building in this country.  It's worth reading, and I happen to agree with it.

    Parent
    Thanks -- I found Egan's column (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:56:12 AM EST
    based on your rec, and it is a good -- if all too brief -- analysis.  But then, I always like reading someone who knows history . . . and not just the easy-to-see historical parallels but others as well that ought to worry some who keep looking at only the most recent Roosevelt in the White House.

    Parent
    Another view from the NYT (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:04:47 AM EST
    According to this article, the problem is that Americans make too much money.

    American workers are overpaid, relative to equally productive employees elsewhere doing the same work. If the global economy is to get into balance, that gap must close. NYT

    When the powers that be reduce American wages to the level of third world countries and all safety nets are eliminated, our unemployment and trade deficit problems will be eliminated. Of course, the American CEOs will need to continue to enjoy hugh salaries and bonuses for their efforts to reduce costs and meet Wall Street expectations of increased profits.

    Parent

    Well, then we're overcharged (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:38:56 AM EST
    for our basic, Maslovian hierarchical needs.  If the NYT also opines that the thing to do is lower our costs for food and shelter -- including property taxes, paid directly by homeowners or indirectly by renters -- in this country for starters, fine.  And then we can keep working up the hierarchy to discuss costs for such luxuries as college educations . . . and then on up to the real luxuries that we are supposed to keep buying to bring back a consumer economy, despite our pay cuts already.  Or are the CEO's going to bring back that economy all by themselves with their bonuses?

    Parent
    I have to have hope! (none / 0) (#27)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:11:39 AM EST
    Obama rose from nothing politically to the highest office in the land in a very short time. This isn't achieved without having very shrewd political skills. I agree he hasn't used them since the nomination, but they are there. I still have a glimmer of hope that when faced with political ruin, he'll rise to the occasion.

    The last thing I want to see is the rise of the evil Republican empire again. We haven't recovered from the last yet.

    Parent

    Obama (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:34:11 AM EST
    is not shrewd. If he was shrewd he would be rivaling LBJ as far as the ability to get legislation passed. Instead we see him constantly caving to GOP and cowering and not wanting to take a stand on anything. Unfortunately, he is doing nothing more than giving all the GOP statements about liberals credence--they cant make a decision, they are wimpy etc.

    So far the pressure has not worked on him that I've seen unless its' pressure from evangelicals. He seems to respond to them.

    Parent

    On a strictly personal note here... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:12:14 AM EST
    You mention LBJ for comparison and the first thing that comes to my mind is hundreds of thousands of troops shipped off to Vietnam. And with a brother that was drafted soon after LBJ's buildup, thus far I'll take Obama over LBJ without a second thought. Sometimes there are decisions made that outweigh all others. LBJ loses on that one with me.

    Parent
    Obama's poll numbers... (none / 0) (#8)
    by NealB on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:12:38 AM EST
    ...appear stable in the mid-fifties, even in the wake of 10+% unemployment. Why should he care whether he accomplishes anything? He's going to be reelected by better numbers in 2012 than he was in 2008; who else are we going to vote for?

    Parent
    Don't bet on it. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:35:58 AM EST
    The GOP can win by default as much as Obama can.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#28)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:12:56 AM EST
    How do you think Obama and the Democrat's won. Thank you GWB.

    Parent
    But who? (none / 0) (#57)
    by NealB on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:24:25 PM EST
    Look at their bench. Palin. Tancredo. Mittens. Pawlenty (Pawlenty?). Gingrich. That wierdo governor from Louisiana. Bloomberg.

    Who?

    Bottom line: no one eligible is qualified for the most powerful job in the country too big to fail.

    It's been true for sixty years, but still it's true. We'll get Obama again in 2012 'cause who else is there?

    Parent

    Obama (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 06:43:55 AM EST
    can talk about the qualification issue but would look silly. Romney or Pawlenty could win because they "appear moderate" to many people coming from blue states. Gingrich is going no where and neither is Palin. There's always the chance that someone could rise from obscurity to win ala Clinton in 1992. I'm old enough to rememeber Dems thinking that there was no way Reagan was going to win in 1980 so there's plenty of ways Obama can lose and so far he seems to pursuing them.

    Remember that 2012 will be a referendum on Obama more than who the GOP candidate is.

    Parent

    Who says we have to vote for (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:41:56 AM EST
    anyone?  Maybe a lot of people, disgusted at how they have been marginalized and ignored, disrespected and taken for granted, will not take the lesser-of-two-evils, what-choice-do-we-have, loyal-Democratic-soldier approach, and will withhold their votes.

    Parent
    If what you said is true ... (none / 0) (#52)
    by nyrias on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 03:24:07 PM EST
    "will not take the lesser-of-two-evils, what-choice-do-we-have, loyal-Democratic-soldier approach, and will withhold their votes."

    ... then GOP will win.

    You don't help pick the lesser-of-the-two-evils, the GREATER-of-the-two-evils will be the outcome.

    The logic is quite clear. Crying, complaining, being disgusted, and angry will NOT change a thing.

    Parent

    Sorry, not getting sucked into (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:18:52 PM EST
    voting for one more less-than-deserving candidate who doesn't share my views, who will take my money and then brush me off and sell me out on things that matter to me, and if that means a Republican wins, well, boo-hoo.  Life will go on - it always has.  And it will go on with my self-respect intact.

    I'm just not going to be made to feel guilty because those who did get elected failed to do a good enough job; how is continuing to elect sub-standard candidates helping anything?  And how does it help improve the pool of future candidates?  It doesn't.

    Your logic is unpersuasive.

    Parent

    "Crying, complaining, being disgusted." (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:35:31 PM EST
    Yikes, that's some persuasive style you got there.

    But just wait 'til you see what "angry" can do.  Anger has changed a lot before, and it will again.

    Parent

    Was waiting for (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jbindc on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 07:23:37 AM EST
    "Quit being bitter"

    There, there Anne, when you're not periodically feeling blue, will feel more like "supporting any Dem at all costs" again. <snark>


    Parent

    Yeah, I was kind of waiting for (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 09:36:52 AM EST
    that to rear its ugly head again, but even without raising the ghost of Hillary, I guess it's never too soon to start blaming people for a possible GOP win or two in the next couple of election cycles.

    Oh, the blame can be thrown in my - and many others' - directions, but no one says I have to accept it; I went about 8 rounds with someone here during the 2008 campaign who was nearly apoplectic with rage that if I didn't vote the top of the ticket, it was just as if I had voted for McCain anyway, and it would be All My Fault if McCain won.

    Pssssht.  It is never, of course, the fault of the candidate, who couldn't sell his or her particular brand of Democratic vision, or whose previous job performance put my issues and concerns in the corner while the corporate masters were served.  Or who caved on every important issue or vote, or who used my concerns as the bargaining chip again and again and again.  Oh, no, that couldn't possibly be enough reason to take a chance that a Republican might get elected - I should just keep rewarding mediocrity and betrayal over and over and over again, because all that ever matters anymore is that (D).

    I don't go back to restaurants that serve lousy food and give cr@ppy service.  I don't keep buying brands of products that are shoddily made and whose manufacturers don't care whether I'm happy with their service.  I don't go back to the orthopaedic surgeon who made me wait for 90 minutes in the waiting room, then missed the fracture in the rim of my shoulder socket (that ortho surgeon #2 easily saw on the x-rays the first surgeon took) and told me my dislocated shoulder was well on the way to recovery, such that two days later it came out of the socket again.

    No.  I don't reward that kind of cr@p by continuing to spend my money and place my trust in those who cannot and do not deliver.  It doesn't give them any reason to improve.

    It's no different with these politicians.  Sure, maybe there will always be enough gullible, fearful, voters willing to accept mediocrity and being ignored, but I don't have to willingly be one of them.  It cheapens my vote and that's enough reason not to keep doing it.

    Parent

    Don't bet the rent money on it. (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by prittfumes on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:13:08 AM EST
    . . . He's going to be reelected by better numbers in 2012 than he was in 2008; . . .


    Parent
    Who could have ever believed that (none / 0) (#66)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 10:46:18 AM EST
    GWB would get a second term....and, with numbers that had him boasting he gained political capital, as well.

    It's too early to start predictions, and no election is called until after the votes are counted.

    Parent

    Poll nos for individual personalities mean less .. (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Ellie on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:54:04 AM EST
    ... than what, time and again, people say they need and want.

    Politics stink, and Personality Politics are even worse in that they continually deflect from important and even urgent remedies that people desperately need.

    Seeing Obama and the family posing in their latest gear really is lovely; I wouldn't be surprised to see them smiling on a Holiday catalogue wearing coordinated bathrobes.

    But the way Obama ducked leadership on HCR made me sick, and skittish enough to shelve (for at least 6-8 mos) the chance to run my own shop off the mothership in a new location.

    My point is that my interest in health coverage and care isn't just about what satisfies me politically or ideologically, or health alone, but affects other lives in economic ways.

    I doubt that I'm unique in that regard. I wish our leaders and reps would remove the blinkers of popularity and think outside that "box" to the realities that people are struggling to manage. My wiggle room for failure has shrunk to absolute zero.

    Parent

    Unfortunately (none / 0) (#67)
    by cal1942 on Mon Oct 18, 2010 at 11:05:33 PM EST
    WE aren't the only voters.

    Parent
    For this to occur... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Dadler on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:11:15 AM EST
    ...it will take much more suffering, many more people actually dying in the streets. We are a nation spoiled by our own ingnorance, and sedated by the consumer mentaility that has brainwashed our skulls since the end of WWII. And talking about job creation in a nation that has gleefully shipped so many formerly good, stable, middle class manufacturing jobs abroad, well, you cannot change anything until you change yourself. And changing the ingrained paradigms in the American self is a tall order. Like I said, however, when enough people turn up dead in the gutters, things might get ugly enough to change. As it stands now, we're a nation incapable of sweeping change because we have been taught that this kind of change means socialism, or communism, anything but the go-it-alone and make your casino fortune.

    Jobs for the sake of jobs is the obvious argument you are making. There are still far too many people in this country who have no ability to understand what that means to make it happen. We believe in the God of money, we think it a living thing, and we will sacrifice more virgins, more children, more elderly, more poor people until that God returns its fortune to us.

    While it is nice to dream, one has to remember the character of the dreamer. And our national character right now is rotting and terribly lost.

    There isn't anything more to say (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:20:10 AM EST
    I wish that our leaders could have been more proactive and regulating so that so much would not have already been lost, but that is water under the bridge.  My heart goes out to those that suffer due to the financial ruin of our nation.....and we have only begun to experience what the depth of that ruin is.

    I Agree BTD (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by NMvoiceofreason on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:24:46 AM EST
    As I have for the past year.

    Ever since the Crash of 08, we have needed the equivalent of the WPA - that saved both of my grandfathers and their families.

    I have argued for a direct grant of 10K$ for each new job created (can't be a contractor, can't have worked for the company in the past year, etc). If the employee does not work for the full year, the grant becomes a loan which must be repaid.

    16 million jobs for 160 billion$

    Impossible to restart a consumer economy without consumers

    I dwell on your last line (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:29:55 AM EST
    And because our economy IS a consumer driven economy, how can anyone believe that the GDP has hit bottom and we are on our way back to something that is beyond contraction.

    Parent
    Experimentation... (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:42:57 AM EST
    is a beautiful thing, provided you can admit when the experiment ain't workin' and scrap it...thats not our strong suit, to say the least.

    Look at the failed drug war experiment, the foreign occupation experiments in Iraq and Afghanistan...we can't or won't admit when we've f*cked up and change course.

    So experiment away, that's healthy...just don't get married to the experiments, that could be more poison.

    Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:45:51 AM EST
    The Stupid Americans will Stay the Course based on whatever rhetoric we individually embrace :)  We are proud, strong, and often dumb as a post :)

    Parent
    In fairness,,, (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:51:56 AM EST
    its a common human failing, not uniquely American...we just like to go big!  That's uniquely American:)

    A closed mind is a killer...even a revolutionary closed mind.  Like my main man sarc's tag line goes..."Convictions are a greater foe to truth than lies".

    Parent

    SOME convictions... (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:16:12 AM EST
    ...can SOMEtimes be a greater foe to truth than SOME lies.

    Absolutism is as bad as anything.

    Parent

    SOME absolutism... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:21:25 AM EST
    is as bad as SOME other things...iow, I hear ya bro:)

    Parent
    instead (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:51:02 AM EST
    we get gutless situational pandering.

    Yes, but will a job creation program (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:54:52 AM EST
    get bipartisan support? What would President Snowe do? Wait for it. More tax cuts to the rich. It has worked so well so far. Isn't everyone glad that they worked so hard for minority rule? :-)

    The WPA (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:10:15 AM EST
    "Its accomplishments were enormous, yet during its lifetime it was the most excoriated program of the New Deal," writes Nick Taylor in "American-Made," his comprehensive, sometimes impassioned account of the WPA's rise and fall.

    "Its workers were mocked as shiftless shovel leaners," he writes. "Its projects gave rise to a mocking new word: 'boondoggles.' Red-baiting congressmen called it a hotbed of Communists." The Chicago Tribune described the WPA as "a vampire political machine." One agitated Republican representative referred to it as an attempt "to sabotage the capitalist system."

    Sound familiar?

    From a review Nick Taylor's American-Made: The Enduring Legacy of the WPA

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/books/2004288593_wpa18.html

    this is my favorite line (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:25:29 AM EST
    "And long-term unemployment inflicts long-term damage. Workers who have been out of a job for too long often find it hard to get back into the labor market even when conditions improve. And there are hidden costs, too -- not least for children, who suffer physically and emotionally when their parents spend months or years unemployed. "

    The damage done by prolonged unemployment is deep and wide.  I haven't lost my job but have definitely seen serious lapses in patience with my children.

    What would it be like if my business shut down and I had no income?  Frightening to me.  I cannot imagine the psychological strain ue parents are facing and truthfully I don't want to.  

    I think the job creation credit is a bad idea though.  Labor has suffered the most in this downturn and I think the best policy is direct stimulus into public works and education programs on a massive scale.  Building new schools and hiring more teachers, fixing bridges and ailing infrastructures would create new jobs that would lst 3-5 years.  That is essential as the last recession took nearly 4 years to return to peak employment.

    Why is it so bold to spend 900bn over 2-3 years when that is our current defense spend annually (including iraq and afghanistan)?

    In q4 2009 and q1 2010 GDP is going to be half of what it was in q3 and companies will continue to sag under the strain of worried consumers.  

    I don't consider upgrading education and infrastructure bold but if that is what we have to call it to get them to consider something, than bold it is.....

    Another son just got laid off today (none / 0) (#56)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 07:40:07 PM EST
    joining the other laid-off son and the laid-off daughter and the daughter-in-law newly here and looking for work. . . .

    I hear you.  I had to work to handle this well today, rather than scream to the high heavens.  Just yesterday, I was so relieved for my spouse, still working past retirement age, because he felt so relieved after his pension losses and my pay cut that he can start collecting Social Security as well as a paycheck.  He started planning a vacation again, at last, and some home repairs overdue.

    Today, we set aside that list to be able to help another kid with rent (our house already is full with some of the others back home now) and more.

    Ah well, at least the old folks still have work.  And never will be able to retire.  

    Parent

    German unemployment benefits (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:54:57 AM EST
    This is what a German gets:  
    1.  A month of salary for each year they worked.
    2.  After that ends, they get a % of their salary from unemployment, full paid healthcare.  

    Sister in law got laid off from a small company, they had to pay her 15 months of salary.  

    Germans are worried that as the benefits run out, the economy will not be able to re-absorb the workers laid off.  Which I think we should also be really worried.  When the economy grows and productivity is increasing, who is gonna hire people back?

    They have rules on what an acceptable job is, for a parent the salary has to be at 67%, no children 60%.  

    The benefits run for 12 months.  

    The critical issue is that along with unemployment, you get healthcare and other services.  

    Germany (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:01:35 AM EST
    ...like other European countries, also has a strong social safety net and universal health care. So even if you're unemployed the effects are not as devastating as they are here. Here, when you have no job you have nothing.

    CNN has a pretty good slideshow of what it's like for several families trying to survive on UE:

    http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/news/0903/gallery.living_on_unemployment/

    Eaten Alive... (4.00 / 3) (#1)
    by kidneystones on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 06:50:57 AM EST
    President Can't Decide is already back-tracking from his rejection of the four options laid out for Afghanistan policy. Talk about your experimentation.

    My guess is that 'I don't know, yet' fell on ears unbelieving in Tokyo.

    Obama's dithering must have looked especially weak before newly elected Japanese Prime Minister Hatoyama, who managed to formulate a policy on Afghanistan Japan is likely to stick about a month ago. Namely: forget re-fueling from Japanese naval vessels.

    Evidently the new, new message is 'I'll decide, soon'. How the reality is going to change in the time between now and soon is anybody's guess. I suspect we'll hear some new crap about China now willing to exert influence in Afghanistan or some such CYA nonsense.

    Afghanistan, like Japan and Germany, is a fifty-year project, but we're not hearing about the real cost of the enterprise.

    Sound familiar?

    We need... (3.66 / 3) (#23)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:56:37 AM EST
    ...a new WPA, we need a new CCC, we need a new New Deal. I don't know why we let children pick our president this last election: The times are much too serious, the problems are much too grave, for an untried, inexperienced, figurehead whose aversion to hard work is almost the rival of Dubya's. This is exactly the wrong time to let someone "try," to give him more "time" to figure things out. No. We needed someone who had some idea of what they'd be doing on day one and had the record to back it up..(uhhhh gee, did we have one of those?)

    And by the way, by "children" I'm not referring to the actual age of the Obama voters but their mental age. Too many of them were (and still are) so dazzled by his shiny-newness that they jettisoned all adult behavior.

    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:04:18 AM EST
    we really blew it by not electing Nader...I hear that.

    Parent
    Ahem (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:28:17 AM EST
    It was Ross Perot who warned of a "giant sucking sound" about American jobs going away.

    Guess on this point, he knew what he was talking about.

    Parent

    My bad that I did not pay attention (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:58:51 AM EST
    sufficiently to all of those charts and graphs that Perot put on teevee for us in his infomercial.  You're right; he was right on a lot of this.

    But I just kept cracking up at so much else about him!

    Parent

    Again, I hear the echoes (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 09:45:04 AM EST
    of Senator Claire McCaskill's revelation that her number-one political adviser is a teenager.  Of course, she's just the one so foolish as to admit it.

    Parent
    Yeah, cause we would love to (none / 0) (#14)
    by me only on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 08:41:05 AM EST
    have permanent unemployment rate of 7% like Germany.

    This is the telling graph.

    So why didn't Krugman pick the Netherlands, Australia or Japan.  Guess they don't fit the narrative.

    We have a higher... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Dadler on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:18:19 AM EST
    ...permanent rate than that, and have for some time. Hint: we don't keep track of people once we think they're not worth keeping track of. Kind of like how we can't be bothered to count the tens of thousands of people we kill overseas in our wars of occupation.

    Parent
    The BLS statistics (none / 0) (#46)
    by me only on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:03:45 PM EST
    are computed on the same scale for each country.  So your argument is fallacy.

    Parent
    Time for the death of money (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:19:47 AM EST
    Or at least its death as the god of our economy. Then again, we seem to be at the dead end of money as a concept to provide stability anyway. As is stands, money is merely casino chips horded by a few and desired by the many who cannot get them. That's called a recipe for civil war.

    Krugman the realist (none / 0) (#47)
    by Manuel on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:19:10 PM EST
    The irony in Krugman's praise of Germany is that, among the industrial nations, Germany did relatively less stimulus (for fear of deficits).  Krugman is aware of the inconsistency.  He still favors more stimulus but knows we aren't likely to get it politiclly.  I give him credit for trying to accomodate his thiking to the political reality.

    Deutschland (none / 0) (#49)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:34:27 PM EST
    their stimulus amounted to 1.5% of their GDP compared to the US stimulus at 2% of our GDP.

    Comparatively speaking I would argue their stimulus was stronger based on the significant differences in the respective economies and level of exposure to the banking crisis....

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    or for kicks and giggles (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:40:54 PM EST
    germany in 2005 had a 2.6 trn gdp
    california 2005 1.6 trn

    It would be like giving california 30bn today to deal with their problems.  Considering CA has about a 26bn deficit that would wipe out their deficit completely and give them 4 bn to invest...

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    But that's far less (none / 0) (#51)
    by Manuel on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 03:08:22 PM EST
    for both the US and Germany than Krugman and many here, including me, would have liked to see.  Double the stimulus would have been about right both here and in Germany.

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    i think germany is a bad example (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 04:08:40 PM EST
    as they were not exposed to a housing bubble and had about the same actual dollars allocated for infrastructure spend this year as we did.  Which is incredible considering they are the size of Oregon.

    I advocated for three times the investment of the original stimulus (I thought we needed 2.5 trn).  I still think we need 600bn a year for 3 years which happens to be our annual military spend if you do not include afghanistan and iraq.

    Germany still manufactures and exports we really don't compare with them.  I think the german stimulus although lower as a % of gdp was smarter and "real"....

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    "bold experiments" (none / 0) (#48)
    by diogenes on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:26:03 PM EST
    How about a flat tax rather than the current mess of a tax code?

    But that might (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 09:46:39 AM EST
    lower the motivation to become Lloyd Blankfein, mightn't it?

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    That would be awful (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edger on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 10:37:23 AM EST
    Everybody would have to kick in a coupla bucks a month towards everybody else's health care, while everybody else did the same.

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    Isn't that what gave Joe the Plumber his (none / 0) (#64)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 10:35:50 AM EST
    15 minutes? Obama's promise to him and those in his neighborhood that he was going to redistribute the wealth? Then, first thing out of the gate....billions to Wall Street and crumbs to Main Street.


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