home

Friday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:03:39 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Your turn.

This is an Open Thread.

< Bold, Persistent Experimentation | Why The Public Option Is The Critical Component Of HCR >

  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Friday Morning Open Thread | 35 comments (35 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    This should help the Congress (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:24:38 AM EST
    decide what to do on HCR. Goldman Sachs evaluates the impact of health care proposals.

    Their "bull scenario" is the Senate bill "watered down":

    The next best thing for the insurance industry would be if the legislation passed by the Senate Finance Committee is watered down significantly. Described as a "bull case" scenario -- in which there is "moderation of provisions in the current SFC plan" or "changes prior to the major implementation in 2013″ -- earnings per share for the five biggest insurers would grow an estimated ten percent and the variance with current valuation would rise an estimated 47 percent.
    ...
    And the worst case scenario?  The House version of the public option:

    This is, the firm deems, the "bear case" scenario -- in which earnings per share for the top five insurers would decline an estimated one percent from 2010 through 2019 and the variance with current valuation is projected to be negative 36 percent.
    FDL

    Any bets on which Congress will chose?

    That settles that... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:29:47 AM EST
    Goldman has spoken!...:)

    Personally...I'd take IRS Harry over at OTB's analysis of insurance market gambling over Goldman's at this point...he's remained profitable throughout the economic apocolypse of 08-09 cashing IRS winners for other OTB patrons, and without government assistance.

    Parent

    Eagerly anticipating... (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:42:48 AM EST
    Capt. Howdy's take on the Palin appearance on Oprah...paiging Capt. Howdy:)

    At her worst (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:57:55 PM EST
    she still had to be better than Carrie Prejean on Larry King.

    Parent
    Yikes! (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:11:15 PM EST
    If blondes could be considered an ethnic minority, Carrie Prejean would be my muse for some really vicious stereotyping.

    I will say on Prejean's behalf, though, that by deliberately courting a public backlash so that she might play the part of victim, she shows some very real potential to become for her own generation, what former Florida beauty queen Anita Bryant once proved to be for our own. Now, whether one considers that to be a bad thing or not, will ultimately depend upon one's political frame of reference. It's not necessarily a sustainable career choice, that's for sure.

    Parent

    Going on a self promotion tour (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:28:52 PM EST
    and melting down on the first question doesn't exactly inspire future employers to up the ante to get Carrie, except for perhaps one internet industry that needs to remain nameless. ..this being a family site and all.

    Perhaps she needs a new PR person before she rolls out the self promotion campaign Part 2.

    Parent

    Took the thought right.. (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:33:07 PM EST
    out of my head CG...I predict a starring role in one of the films Skinemax airs at 2 am in her near future...being a good christian woman and all, she won't go hardcore.

    Parent
    Yeh, but Anita B. didn't do sex tapes (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:44:51 PM EST
    so Ms. Preborn Prejean is going nowhere. . . .

    Parent
    anita (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:17:34 PM EST
    i remember my brother's poster of her in his bedroom.  Hitler mustached, goateed and b*tch scrawled over her forehead.

    I was too young to understand and thought he hated orange juice.....

    Parent

    Hillary on the cover of Time... (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by mogal on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:58:44 AM EST
    Even my husand thought they over used the air brush. And do any of you other "mature" people find it curious that Joe Klein, the man who wrote Primary Colors and lied about it wrote the article?  

    Hillary Clinton is truly a forgiving person and yet as the article states, "There is a palable toughness to the woaman, a hard edge, that contracts with the Presidents impulse toward conciliation."

    I don't often agree with a Republicans -  especialy a Generals, but yes, she would have made a "hell of Commander in Chief."

    hypothetical (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:16:18 PM EST
    if you were faced with a life threatening illness and you capped your med expenses thereby assuring bankruptcy, what would you do?

    A) Deal with it and go through bankruptcy?

    B) Consider ending your life so as not to be a financial burden to your children and spouse?

    C) Commit a felony (where no one gets hurt) so you could spend a year or two in prison and receive meds and treatment?

    I am not sick but my wife and I have had this discussion many times.  Depending on my age and the severity I would most likely c.  If I am too far gone, I would definitely lean toward B.  

    In most developed countries, people don't have to have this discussion.....

    I'd probably go Choice C as well.... (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:03:14 PM EST
    but I wouldn't go and try to get caught,  I'd try to steal enough to cover all the medical expenses.  I'd rather die with no coverage than sit in a cage with coverage myself...

    If I couldn't pull off a decent heist...then probably B, unless there was a good chance at recovery and quality of life...then A.

    Parent

    Can you divorce (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    so the family doesn't take on the bankruptcy/financial burden in situation A? I believe folks are doing things like marrying/divorcing to be able to get coverage for serious illness already. Mainly involving care for children.

    Parent
    Well, you're not supposed to, but ... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:50:01 PM EST
    ... that's what some couples are driven to do. My cousin is an attorney on the west coast, and she recently handled the divorce of a couple whom we both know, which was triggered by health care issues, particularly the cancellation of coverage for one of the spouses for a pre-existing condition by their insurance carrier.

    The husband actually had to move out for a short period of time, to preserve the illusion during the actual court proceedings that each was going his or her own way. The wife is now on Medicaid, for which she was ineligible prior to the divorce.

    Parent

    i don't think so (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:14:56 PM EST
    but I am completely unsure, just a guess.

    Either way, it is a good option that should be included.
    Option D.  

    Although i would imagine if you can do it, option d would be the default, no?

    Parent

    Not hypothetical for me (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by hookfan on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:40:19 PM EST
    Having actually faced this very situation when my first wife was diagnosed with stage four cancer and down the road, I was misdiagnosed with kidney cancer  (It wasn't I found out later, but another medical condition, the meds for which caused an allergic reaction that set me up for a stroke further down the road). I considered all three options, and they are not mutually exclusive. Other factors become important in considering how to proceed, like how much time one has; the degree of debilitation from the illness; the likely course of the illness; the availability of options to protect assets by financial maneuvers prior to bankruptcy, ending one's life, or the commission of the felony; the increased risk involved in the delay to set up one's financial options that best protect one's self and others; the degree of likelihood of committing a felony and not being found out, especially when bankruptcy can be used as a tool for financial cover, etc.
      Facing the realities of death, for me, surfaced values that individually were most important-- that I was really willing to die for.
      A lot of social conventions that apply in less stringent situations seemed to be exposed  for their shallowness, and carried much less weight. Money, the degree of perceived social success or prestige, and external religion (and I was highly religious)lost alot of their attraction. At the same time, the ongoing experiences of life like the taste of good food, the sun on one's skin, the smell of the sea, the pleasure of rest, the joy of human touch and contact, empathy toward the suffering, the ability to wash a dish, chop wood, and even clean a house became much more valued. The poignancy of the fragility of life, and the focus on how short is the time,increased the value of the ongoing experiences with those I love. Others may find it different for them.

    Parent
    Such an experience (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Cream City on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:50:49 PM EST
    can have such effect, yes, on the worldview.  I am seeing a colleague of mine who came back from a death sentence, after deciding to take the risk of participating in a cancer meds experiment.  And it involved amazing upheaval in his life and that of his family as well.

    But he is reborn.  I'm watching that now, as he takes on local goliaths in his research.  And the counter-reaction in my city is something to see, really lining up to aim all sorts of stuff at him.  But what all his opponents do not get is that he has been to h*ll and back, and nothing less can touch him now.  

    Thank you for sharing, and stay strong -- as you now are stronger for it, too, and with a clearer view of the world, in a way, and that is valuable here.

    Parent

    thanks for such a touching response (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:57:55 PM EST
    the joy of life is never far from my mind.  I hope I am never in the same situation although I must admit I will not be as brave.....

    Parent
    Brave? (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by hookfan on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:38:19 PM EST
    I still question that. I still question whether not offing myself was the coward's way out. After all, I had a million dollar life insurance policy in place, with no restriction for death by suicide. If social concern for my two children expressed through financial well being became the priority, then I took the coward's way out, by selfishly prioritizing my life and life experience, at their expense, and have rationalized it later. My children, now grown, have expressed if that is true, then there is value in cowardice as well. Who knows if it would have been good or ill if I'd taken the other route? I'm far less quick to label death by suicide as cowardice now. So I have no advice to give others, nor condemnation for other choices. We've chosen what we've chosen. We work with with what we are and what we've preserved and what we've lost.

    Parent
    i hope this site is up for a long time (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:53:54 PM EST
    and should i ever be in that situation, I will look forward to your counsel.  Very grounded and more importantly, real.  Thanks.

    Parent
    There is nothing valiant about suicide (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 03:32:06 PM EST
    The people left behind suffer the loss at a greatly magnified level when someone they love chooses to leave them so permanently. The grief has no comparison.

    Parent
    depends on the situation (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 04:14:32 PM EST
    a 60 year old male with terminal cancer and no more hc funds who can leave his wife his million dollar insurance policy as well as their life savings intact, to me is noble.  I have no intention of giving my lifes savings to any HC company or hospital if i have a terminal illness or if it will bankrupt my wife posthumously.  

    Her remaining years without me would be significantly easier with money than without.  If I have learned anything i know for certain that having money makes things easier (not better) but easier.....

    Which is exactly why my wife and I have these discussions.  I cannot imagine losing my wife, she is the single most important person in my life.  Nor can i imagine her having to deal with losing me and being bankrupt shortly thereafter.

    I am pragmatic and selfish but she knew that when she married me  :)

    Parent

    Well, see (none / 0) (#32)
    by hookfan on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 04:32:37 PM EST
     if one is dying anyway, and preserving one's life for much longer is going to result in severe economic changes resulting in negatively impacting the one's left behind in limited opportunities socially, educationally and economically for a long time, if not permanently, then, for me, it's not so clear.
     I've also experienced the results of the "hangers on" in both the financial ruination of estates, and the conflicted emotional states of the caregivers who will be left with nothing, struggling to manage their inner conflict, sometimes self condemnation, for wishing the dying would just get on with it to release them (the caregivers) from their exhausting hell, and the ongoing erosion in their own relationships. The cost to the survivors is also great.  So, for me, that cost and suffering is not easily dismissed. The mileage may vary for others. . .

    Parent
    Both of you are providing solid (none / 0) (#33)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 04:42:58 PM EST
    evidence for why this country should NOT ALLOW anyone to suffer dramatic financial losses over medical bills and we need single payer! But, it still doesn't justify suicide (assisted suicide is much different, of course).

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 12:50:43 AM EST
    I have always considered my life a path after I lost my family as a child. Then somehow God thought it would be enlightening and funny for me to be Joshua's mom too.  Reading your path though, and the truth you have found, it is profound for me.  Thank you for sharing this.  And I never know what to do with such insight while Chopra and Quantum Physics aren't matching up :) Amazing life experience

    Parent
    Don't sell yourself short... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 02:40:18 PM EST
    ...you'd be surprised at how resiliant the human spirit can be when pushed to the limits.  

    There's been many, many a time in my life where the easiest course of action would have been to give up and accept fate, but I've always managed to find a reason to keep keeping on.  The flesh may be weak, but the spirit is strong.

    Parent

    I gotta give it up to Holder and Obama if this is (none / 0) (#1)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:17:52 AM EST
    true- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125811122555346969.html

    Frankly, this is what we've always wanted and given the calls for this on here I got to imagine I'm not the only one applauding it (Greenwald's probably celebrating like the Holiday of his choice came early).

    Clap clap clap... (none / 0) (#2)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 10:24:32 AM EST
    its about damn time!

    Parent
    John O'Connor (none / 0) (#6)
    by AlkalineDave on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:12:50 AM EST
    husband to Justice O'Connor passed away. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091112/ap_on_go_su_co/us_obit_o_connor_husband

    sigh.... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Fabian on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:40:42 AM EST
    Another pretty photo diary over at the orange.  "This is our president!  He's a good man!  Why do you criticize him?".

    Pictures of Obama looking all presidential like - like a picture proves anything.  I bet we could find lots of images of many presidents looking appropriately solemn and presidential.  Not only that, but I think a good photoshop artist could swap one man for another.  Put Reagan in the Democratic convention, Obama at the GOP convention, have Reagan meeting with PM Brown, Obama chatting with Maggie Thatcher.  

    My question is:  If you used Obama and put him into generic presidential settings, how many people wouldn't realize his image was 'shopped in?

    Here's a photo... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by desertswine on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:54:50 AM EST
    of my favorite president...  Warren G. Hardy

    Verrry presidential.

    Parent

    Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 01:40:58 PM EST
    My favorite Warren G. Harding story actually took place not all that long ago, when Harding family members quietly quietly quashed the publication of the collection of letters that the then-Senator from Ohio had written to his mistress Carrie Fulton Phillips, a married woman who has long been suspected by many of actually having been a spy for Imperial Germany during the First World War.

    The letters are currently under an Ohio protective court order that prevents disclosure of their contents until 2023, the 100th-year anniversary of President Harding's death. Apparently, some of the correspondence was so salacious as to be considered pornographic, even by today's standards. Further, Mrs. Phillips was the only woman known to have successfully blackmailed a major political party, because she threatened to disclose her long-term relationship with one of its rising stars, who was also a married man.

    Parent

    didn't we find out not too long ago (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 11:58:11 AM EST
    that some magazine photoshopped him?

    Parent
    More secrets of WWII: (none / 0) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 13, 2009 at 12:51:21 PM EST
    Los Angeles Times | November 12, 2009
    2 Japanese subs sunk after World War II found - "U.S. researchers said Thursday that they have located the remains of two high-tech Japanese submarines that were scuttled by the U.S. Navy off Hawaii in 1946 to prevent the technology from falling into the hands of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the Cold War. One of the craft was the largest non-nuclear sub ever built and had the ability to circle the globe 1 1/2 times without refueling. Called the I-14, the behemoth was 400 feet long and 40 feet high and carried a crew of 144. It was designed to launch two folding-wing bombers on kamikaze missions against U.S. cities such as New York and Washington, D.C., although changes in tactics, and the end of the war, prevented such attacks. The second, which also never entered the war, was an attack submarine called the I-201 whose design foreshadowed the sleek submarines of today. It was thought to be more than twice as fast as any U.S. subs used in the war. 'In their time, they were very revolutionary,' said retired Col. Robert D. Hackett, a military historian with CombinedFleet.com, an online collection of information about the Imperial Japanese Navy."

    I have been experiencing friends (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 14, 2009 at 12:56:37 AM EST
    and beverages tonight. Am I deeper or just stupid?  Things are tough out there right now though and I have come away tonight, in the heart of the Southy South, with renewed belief in human goodness.  It was all over the place tonight.  Perhaps a life without hardships wouldn't be worth experiencing......maybe we'd all just turn out to be a$$h*les.

    Friday Morning Open Thread | 35 comments (35 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment