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Caucuses vs. Primaries : A Report

What has 2008 shown us in terms of the fairness of the Democratic nomination process? That the caucus system is neither fair nor representative.

Here's an interesting report on the differences between primaries and caucuses and the impact in the 2008 Presidential nomination. I am reprinting it with the permission of its author, P. Cronin. It addresses:

  • Voter Suppression in Caucuses
  • Disenfranchised Voter Groups & Statistics
  • Differential in Voter Turnout Rates
  • Popular Vote Disparity
  • Estimated Voter Suppression in 2008 Caucuses
  • Caucus Systems Distort Election Results
  • Vote-spread Differences
  • Disproportionate Votes-to-Delegates Ratio
  • More Math of Electability
  • Other Primary versus Caucus Considerations
  • 2008 Democratic Election Snapshot
  • What IF: Florida & Michigan

Some highlights are below, but I recommend reading the entire report. [More....]

Here are some stats:

  • By the numbers, in 2008 primaries have averaged 400% greater voter turnout in eligible voters than caucuses.
  • Of the 33.5 million popular votes in the 2008 Democratic Primaries, caucus voters have
    collectively cast only 3.2% of the total or 1.1 million votes.
  • the 13 caucus states have 23.2 million eligible voters. The average Democratic voter turnout in 2008 caucuses has been 4.5% versus 19.92% in primaries.
  • 42% of Obama’s wins are caucus states, 95% of Clinton’s wins are primary states.

Three states have both caucuses and primaries. Take a look at the different results as to voter turnout and preference in the Democratic race:

  • Washington: On February 9, Washington held its statewide caucus and an estimated 245,000 caucus-goers – 5.3% of eligible voters – chose Obama over Clinton by 67.5% to 31.2%, a whopping 36-point margin. Ten days later, WA held a primary attended by 691,381 [15% of eligible voters, ie, almost 3 times the caucus turnout] and Obama won by 51.2% to 45.7%. [Citizens of WA voted-in a State-run Primary. However, the Party-run caucus results are still the legal results.]

    The impact:

    Washington allocated its 78 pledged delegates at a ratio of 2:1 [67% to 33%] and Obama got 52 versus Clinton’s 26. He gained 26 delegates. If the pledged delegates had been allocated according to the primary results, Obama would have won roughly 41 delegates compared to Clinton’s 37. He would be gained only 4 delegates. Bottom line: The caucus vs. primary election benefited Obama by a net 22 delegates – 14.5% of the 152 pledged delegates separating the two.

  • Nebraska: On February 9, Nebraska held a caucus and only 3.04% of the 1.3 million eligible voters participated. Those 38,571 caucus-goers chose Obama over Clinton 68% to 32% and he won 16 of the 24 pledged delegates. In stark contrast, on May 13th, Nebraska held a primary where nearly 94,000 voters [7.5% of eligible voters] chose Obama by 49.4% to 46.6% ,– only 2.8% instead of the 36% vote-spread recorded in the caucus. If delegates were allocated on the results of the primary instead of the caucus, Obama and Clinton would have received 12 pledged delegates each.
    Bottom line: Obama’s 13,700 vote victory in the red-state Nebraska caucus netted him 8 pledged delegates. Compare that to Clinton’s 204,000 vote victory in the battleground state of Ohio which netted her only 9 pledged delegates.

The third state is Texas, and the report has a section on that aw well.

The report asks, "which states are more important to win in the General Election? Which are a stronger indicator of candidate strength and offer a better barometer for voter preference for the Democratic nominee?"

Obama’s 138 pledged delegates lead derived from the 12 caucus states he won is only 18 less than Clinton’s 156 pledged delegates won from all of these hard-fought, primary states: California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Indiana, Tennessee, Arizona, Oklahoma, Arkansas, New Mexico, West Virginia, New Hampshire and Rhode Island.

These Clinton-won states have a combined 220 electoral votes, 87.2 million eligible voters and cast a total of 18,400,000 votes in these primaries. Compare that with the Obama-won caucus states with a combined 69 electoral votes, 21.5 million eligible voters and only 944,000 total votes cast.

The stats show what happens when all states are weighted equally:

42% of Obama’s wins have been in caucus states wherein one-half have not voted Democratic since 1964, 70% voted Republican in 2004, 8 out of the 13 states had only 8,700 to 43,900 voters each and there is a total of 74 electoral votes for all caucus states.

In other words, a comparison of the two systems shows:

  • suppressed voter turnout in caucus vs. primary states
  • lopsided vote-spread differential between Obama and Clinton in the caucus vs. primary states
  • relative impact of caucus elections on the allocation of pledged delegates to each candidate
  • disproportionate impact of caucus votes in relation to convention delegates

On the lopsided vote apread differential:

In 2008, the 34 primaries [excluding MI & FL] have produced an average .8 percent vote-difference between Obama and Clinton. By contrast, the 13 caucuses have had a 28 percent vote-spread.

Why?

Because of the restrictions inherent in the caucusing process, participants traditionally include the most motivated voters, party partisans & loyalists and voters strongly committed to a candidate and/or the voting process itself. Since this is generally a relatively small subset of all voters, true voter preferences can be skewed.

The result is "a disproportionate allocation per candidate of the 498 pledged delegates allotted to the caucus states [including TX caucus]".

35 Primaries w/FL :
33,832,107 total votes
Clinton + 35,387
Clinton + 62 delegates

13 Caucuses + TX :
1,057,137 total votes
Obama + 299,768
Obama + 193 delegates

In other words:

35 Primaries with 33.8 million voters have Clinton leading in both votes and delegates.

Caucuses with 1.1 million voters gave Obama 300,000 more votes and 193 more delegates.

....After 47 state elections to date, Obama leads Clinton by 152 pledged delegates. 97% of the difference – 148 delegates – is directly attributable to lopsided victories in caucus contests.

As to the disproportionate impact of the caucus results:

Though voters in all 13 caucus states have cast only 3.2% of the total 33.5 million votes so far – those votes control 15.3% of the pledged delegates and 16.4% of the Super delegates sent to the DNC Convention – average 15.5% of the total delegates [626 caucus / 4047 total]. After all remaining primaries the total votes could easily top 36 million, dropping the caucus vote to 2.9% of the total. In that event, 1 out of every 34 votes will determine and control 1 of every 6.5 delegates.

Bottom line: caucus voters will have a grossly disproportionate role in determining the 2008 Democratic nominee.

Put another way:

  • 34 Primary States -32.4 Million Votes
  • 13 Caucus States -1.1 Million Votes
  • 3.2% of the vote controls 15.5% of the delegate selection for the 2008 Democratic Convention.

Still More:

97% of pledged delegate difference between Obama and Clinton is directly related to the caucus victories, caucus delegates’ account for 1 in every 6.5 DNC delegates and nearly 2/3 of those delegates will vote pro-Obama essentially giving them substantially more clout in determining the 2008 Democratic nominee.

On the impact on the electoral math and map:

21 of Obama’s 29 states won are either caucus states or Red states – including 80% of the deepest Red that have not voted Democratic since 1964 to 1976. With a win in SD and MT, he will finish with 230 Electoral Votes –121 of those from Red states.

Notably, if Obama is the Democratic nominee, he will start the race for the Presidency with 109 Electoral Votes from blue or purple states. That’s 40% of what he’ll need to win in November.

For Hillary:

In contrast, only one of Clinton’s 20 states won is a caucus and only 26% of her total Electoral Votes are from Red states. Further, 227 of Clinton’s 308 EV are from blue and purple states meaning that she would start the Presidential race having won states that account for 84% of the EV needed to win the White House.

Consider this:

The 13 Caucus states comprise 26% of all states voting in the 2008 Democratic Preference Election but account for only 74 of the total 538 Electoral Votes in the General Election.

....70% of the caucus states -- – 9 of 13 -- – voted Republican in the 2004 General Election. Those states held 45 of the 74 total electoral votes for all caucus states. In 2000, 8 of the 13 states [62%] voted for Bush.

....There are 185.7 million total eligible voters [VEP] in the 47 state contests held so far. Clinton has won states with 104.9 million eligible voters and Obama has won states with 80.8 million. Moreover, based on VEP, the average Democratic voter turnout in Clinton’s states was 20.1% compared to 15.4% turnout in Obama’s states [17 primaries @ 19.4% turnout and 12 caucuses @ 4.4% turnout]. MI & FL are excluded.

....The United States has a total of 538 electoral votes and 270 are needed to win the Presidency. Clinton has won 18 states with 264 electoral votes versus Obama’s 29 states with 224 electoral votes. MI & FL are excluded.

Page 11 lists a host of reasons caucuses are less representative and fair than primaries. It then finds:

When the results of all 34 primaries are totaled and averaged there is only a .8% vote differential and .8% difference in total delegates –Obama is ahead by 259,000 votes out of 32.4 million and Clinton is ahead by 24 delegates out of 3,114.

When Florida is added in, Clinton leads by 62 delegates and 35,387 votes. These dead-heat Primary results closely parallel national polls in the two candidate match-up since Super Tuesday.

On Florida and Michigan:

Since the DNC stripped Florida and Michigan of their delegates, results from these primaries have purposely been omitted from most discussion till now. No Democratic candidate campaigned or ran political ads in either state. However, since both states conducted a legitimate Primary election and posted certified results and since the states have a combined 44 electoral votes and nearly 20 million eligible voters that cast a cumulative 2,345,000 votes [twice the number of all caucus votes and roughly 7% of total votes] readers may want to consider the voter preferences expressed in order to assess candidate electability for the General Election.

After several graphs of number-crunching, the report finds:

If Florida and Michigan are added to all election results, Clinton would gain another 27 and 17 electoral votes respectively and would have a total of 308 – 38 more than the 270 needed to win the Presidency in the General Election. Obama’'s 29 states won have 224 electoral votes which would be 46 short of the 270 needed to win.

Finally, if Florida and Michigan are added to the 47 state elections already concluded [34 primaries + 13 caucus states] there are 205.5 million total eligible voters [VEP]. Clinton has won states with 124.7 million eligible voters and Obama has won states with 80.8 million. In this instance, Clinton would have won 19 primaries versus 17 for Obama.

On the topic of built-in voter suppression, the report explains how and why these groups are not fairly represented:

  • Elderly / hospitalized / ill health
  • Military oversees or on out-of-state assignment
  • Voters out of state
  • Voters with kids – especially small children – who can’t get or afford a babysitter
  • Workers who can not get time off work, or who can’t afford the time off
  • Citizens with limited English proficiency [estimated at 8 to 10 Million voters nationwide]

In conclusion, the report quotes "“Has America Outgrown the Caucus?”" by Tova Wang, a Democracy Fellow at The Century Foundation:

Caucuses, as opposed to primaries, by their very structure violate fundamental principles of voting rights. Their time-consuming, inflexible, Byzantine procedures discourage broad participation, presenting substantial barriers to the right to vote. It is not that the caucuses violate the Constitution—they are run by the parties, not the states, and do not violate voting rights as a matter of law. Rather, because of their exclusionary nature, they go against some of the core values we express when we talk about voting rights, such as the fundamental nature of the right, equality of opportunity to participate in the process, and fair access to the ballot.

Regardless of what reforms are considered, it is clear that the caucus is a deeply flawed method for selecting a nominee, and this problem can no longer be shunted aside.

.... Caucuses, as they are currently conducted, do not respect those rights and should not continue in their current form going forward.

The report concludes:

[I]t'’s been shown that caucus elections not only suppress voter participation but also literally systemically disenfranchise voters such as people with disabilities, military personnel on assignment, those physically incapable of participation and all other would-be voters who can not meet the “exact time and place” physical
attendance requirement. Likewise, it’s clear that caucus elections skew overall voting results and have a disproportionate impact on selection of the Democratic nominee for President at the DNC convention.

From a voting rights standpoint the questions become: When millions of Americans are filtered-out or systemically lockedout of the caucusing process, how can we say we have a nominee who is chosen democratically, by the will of the people? When so many citizens are excluded from the voting process how can we trust the outcome of elections?

....[I]t seems clear that the voter preference of the 34 million citizens who have voted through the open, inclusive Primary system should receive the more serious consideration. Their voices have shown a near-tie race between Clinton and Obama, with Clinton having an edge in both delegates and votes.

While this is the system we have, and in 2008 it's not possible to change the rules in hindsight, we have more than 800 superdelegates who can change their mind up until the convention. The questions they need to ask themselves before making a final commitment:

Which candidate has the best overall education, experience and skill-set to prepare them for the Presidency? Which candidate is better suited to withstand the Republican attacks and unrelenting scrutiny? What core constituencies does each candidate draw? What is the size and voting record of those groups? How marginalized would each group’s vote become in their state’s overall election results in the General Election? How many voters will be lost if “their” candidate is
not nominated, ie, will not vote at all or will cross-over and become the 2008 Reagan Democrats? Which future, powerful voting blocks are at stake, eg, Latinos and youth and would they vote for McCain? Which states are “must wins” for the needed electoral votes? In this Democratic Preference Election, which candidate emerges having won most of those “must win” states?

The superdelegates can decide that all delegates and states won should not be weighted equally in selecting the Democratic nominee. Will they? Probably not. But the system does need to change for 2012 so we don't go through this again.

Update: Several commenters have asked for more information about the author of the report, P. Cronin. Here it is:

Peniel Cronin is the President & CEO of Global Basics and eNameWiz.com. Cronin holds a B.S. in Accounting from Arizona State University and has 16 years experience as an accountant and Director of Marketing for several SMEs.

Cronin directs all strategic development and product/market research and developed the algorithms and database that power the eNameWiz multilingual domain creation and search system.

Representative clients through Global Basics have included the Arizona Office of Tourism, the Nevada Commission on Tourism, the Arizona Shopping Consortium, Shop America Alliance, America West Airlines, Southwest Airlines, AeroMexico and numerous other travel and domain industry organizations. Cronin holds three US & German Patents, several trademarks and numerous copyrights.

Cronin suffers from a disability resulting from a car accident 40 years ago at age 12 which left her "wheelchair bound" for two years, at a time when there were no curb cuts or ramps and nothing was accessible. This is what fueled her passion about the caucus information. She knows what it's like to be locked-out of the mainstream and to be excluded from full participation in what others take for granted.

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    In other words, (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by bjorn on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:28:00 AM EST
    Clinton has won the nomination but she will not get it because of wimpy SDs. I wonder if even half the SDs will even read this report.  Thank you for posting it, most fascinating. And who can we write or call to tell them to change the stupid system for 2012?

    I understand your point, (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by TomP on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:13:58 AM EST
    but no one has "won" the nomination.

    The playing field was there for all candidates.  Cuacuses are not as good as primaries.  I agree they should be phased out. But they count this time.

    As for superdelegates, the Democratic Party did that to itself.

    [ Parent ]

    "Playing Field" (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by Pacific John on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:03:56 AM EST
    Your opinion will change as facts come out. I guarantee it.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe so. (none / 0) (#251)
    by TomP on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:07:14 PM EST
    Time will tell.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry to be cryptic, Tom (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by Pacific John on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:13:38 PM EST
    I have the highest respect for your posts and thinking, and have a strong hunch that as this story is told, we'll end up on the same page.

    [ Parent ]
    TomP...you are correct, no one has won the (5.00 / 1) (#268)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:37:40 PM EST
    nomination.

    [ Parent ]
    To change the system and to tell the DNC (5.00 / 1) (#267)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:36:12 PM EST
    to stop screwing around with MI and FL, and tell the SD's to keep their pieholes shut until the convention.

    [ Parent ]
    Right now (none / 0) (#100)
    by befuddled on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:45:47 AM EST
    you can go to lobbydelegates.com and very painlessly (throw money) send notes to your own Super Dees. Except that just now as I was doing that their server crashed from heavy traffic. :) Trolls? Irate Clinton supporters? Fun if we knew.

    [ Parent ]
    Hear, hear! (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by madamab on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:31:07 AM EST
    What an excellent and well-researched post. Thank you very much for the detailed information about caucuses!

    And yes, I do think America has outgrown them. There are too many of us now for this outdated system to be truly representative.

    Let's nominate this woman (5.00 / 8) (#3)
    by masslib on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:32:00 AM EST
    for crissake.  

    We don't have to nominate the guy who had a good caucus streak.  

    I was gonna quote you, masslib (5.00 / 4) (#39)
    by magisterludi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:55:39 AM EST
    if you weren't here (with proper credit, of course!!).

    [ Parent ]
    A book is gonna be written (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:37:48 AM EST
    I wish I was in the position to write it, cause it's gonna make the writer a fair chunk of change.

    Quick question not covered above, what percentage of Obama's Primary wins were pre-Wright?

    Well, let's see... (5.00 / 1) (#242)
    by mike in dc on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:49:49 AM EST
    ...he won North Carolina and Oregon, nearly won Indiana, is likely to be competitive in Puerto Rico, and will win Montana and South Dakota handily.  Clinton won Pennsylvania by 9, won blowouts in West Virginia and Kentucky, won narrowly in Indiana and is favored in Puerto Rico.

    so, that's Obama 4, Clinton 5(at worst), with one contest being a near-draw(Indiana), post-Wright.

    If Obama pulls off the upset in PR, then he'll be 5 and 4 post-Wright.  I'm not counting Guam in all this.

    [ Parent ]

    Mississippi? (none / 0) (#272)
    by flashman on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:42:03 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Do you think people vote (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:42:20 AM EST
    On the system that is used in their stat?

    I never saw "Caucus or Primary" on my ballot.


    It doesn't happen often enough (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:52:05 AM EST
    For people to think it matters, it's not an issue that one thinks to protest about.

    Although it might be now.

    I'm quite sure the people who have the free time and enjoy the perks of status are quite happy with the system that's in place.  


    [ Parent ]

    It was on my ballot (5.00 / 3) (#213)
    by oldpro on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:11:10 AM EST
    years ago...an Initiative by the people...who wanted to have a say in selecting nominees.  It passed...bigtime.

    Rs said, "Oh, OK...we'll let the primary select some delegates."

    Ds said, "No way, Jose.  Caucuses only."

    So, we have both....but the primary counts for nothing if you're a Democrat...which I may no longer be following this nominating process.

    Hideous.

    [ Parent ]

    Right now the Party pays for Caucuses, but not for (5.00 / 5) (#20)
    by kindness on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:45:23 AM EST
    primary elections.

    I suspect if that is addressed so that there wasn't a financial incentive for a state to use a Caucus, that all the states would find it in their self interest to just hold a Primary vote instead.

    Precisely (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:52:29 AM EST
    Caucuses are cheaper for the states.  What I don't understand is the Texas system and the other states that have primaries as well.  

    [ Parent ]
    They are more than "primaries" (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Fabian on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:58:40 AM EST
    They are actual Elections with votes cast on more than just a Party Primary.

    IOW - the state was spending the money already, so it isn't a one time expense strictly for a Party Primary.

    [ Parent ]

    I've answered this (none / 0) (#215)
    by oldpro on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:13:22 AM EST
    a hundred times!

    Oh, OK...slight exaggeration...but still...see my answers above re Washington State as an example.

    [ Parent ]

    Another huge drawback (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:17:25 AM EST
    is that the caucus events are not "advertised" well, so there is a large element of the population that learns about them after the fact. The party should be obligated to do a mailing, and at least 3 other forms of advertising for 3-4 weeks in advance of the caucus to make sure all voters know when and where.

    Caucuses are intimidating to a lot of people. The crowd aspect, the element of unknown.

    [ Parent ]

    That's a point -- laws require notice (5.00 / 3) (#146)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:29:06 AM EST
    in newspapers in every town, at least in my state and in many, I know, of elections -- sample ballots, too.  I have seen that even so, potential voters can view the process with considerable trepidation and decide not to vote.  I can imagine that the caucus system would be even more discouraging in that way, in addition to the many other ways identified here.

    Thus, the extensive training by campaigns to prep participants in caucuses.  So in addition to several hours on caucus day or night (or both:-), it can mean many more hours, days, and nights of training.

    How this is seen as party-building, the excuse given for caucuses, I don't know.  It certainly results in only certain population segments being "built" to be part of the party apparatus.

    [ Parent ]

    You're Right (5.00 / 2) (#274)
    by creeper on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:44:05 PM EST
    The caucus process is so arcane that many people are intimidated by it.  It took me several years to work up the courage to attend our Iowa caucuses.  I had no clue how they worked and was loath to make a fool of myself.

    One more drawback to them.

    [ Parent ]

    by appearances the caucuses were ripe for (5.00 / 4) (#193)
    by thereyougo on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    the aggressive tactics used by Obama's team. The strategy took every advantage of the weaknesses and it worked until someone actually took it apart to reveal it for what I've suspected was a arcane process.

    What an excellent analysis. thank you Jeralyn

    What would the Kos Kids say about this report?
    Nothing rational I'm sure.

    [ Parent ]

    And to lay out the rules of that (none / 0) (#125)
    by zfran on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:18:16 AM EST
    caucus.

    [ Parent ]
    True (5.00 / 0) (#149)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:30:30 AM EST
    WA also fails to get proper ID. It reminded me of a comment on an earlier post from a college student from OR who knew way too much about what happened in a WA caucus site. I asked at the time if s/he had attended one, but didn't get an answer.

    [ Parent ]
    WHAAAAT???? (5.00 / 2) (#261)
    by Eleanor A on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:28:55 PM EST
    (Sound of head exploding)

    For real?  DNC pays for caucuses?!

    (slaps self in forehead)  We are so screwed....

    [ Parent ]

    I will reiterate my solution as previously posted. (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by Saul on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:45:53 AM EST
    This was an excellent report.  As I previously posted here is my solution to the nomination process.

    Everyone goes to a primary method. No Caucuses

    No Super Delegates

    All the primaries will be held on one day.  That day should be in late May.  That way all the candidates will have from Dec to May to campaign where ever they want to.

    This way no one has an advantage and every candidates gets an even playing field. Then it's over.  If no one gets the number of delegates required  then whoever gets the most popular vote is the winner.



    I agree (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by madamab on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:47:54 AM EST
    and I would just add that the primaries should be held on a weekend in May, so as to include as many voters as possible; and I'd want to do away with delegates also.

    Direct popular vote with instant runoff voting.

    [ Parent ]

    All elections should be on the weekend (5.00 / 1) (#269)
    by riddlerandy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:39:12 PM EST
    or else make the Veterans' day automatically coincide with election day so that election day is a holiday.  You might be interested in this organization.

    [ Parent ]
    One note (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:46:50 AM EST
    The one day scenario would mean that all 15 candidates who start out running would have to campaign in 50 states (plus territories). They would not be able to raise the money to do that and no potentially great candidate should be pushed out for lack of money.

    The early states are intended to encourage the candidates with the fewer votes to drop out. Super Tuesday will generally encourage the remaining weaker candidates.

    I agree that this extended time period is awful because of this year's primary, but the solution needs to allow for a reasonable method of narrowing the candidates in the race early on.


    [ Parent ]

    You Have a Point (none / 0) (#279)
    by creeper on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:51:00 PM EST
    If all primaries are held on the same day it's likely that little states will not see the same level of campaigning as the big ones.  Candidates are likely to kiss off Rhode Island in favor of spending time in Ohio.

    There seems to be a general feeling here that what we have is a disaster.  But this year we have states casting votes that matter for the first time in ages.  To that extent, it could be worse.  

    Of course, there were all those years when the late states didn't matter.

    I don't know what the solution is.  

    [ Parent ]

    This is an excellent idea. (none / 0) (#29)
    by masslib on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:48:57 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Don't forget the icing on the cake (none / 0) (#142)
    by blogtopus on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:26:15 AM EST
    National Voting Days. Two per year.

    [ Parent ]
    One point (none / 0) (#181)
    by ghost2 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:45:54 AM EST
    I don't know if all primaries in one day would be a good idea.  

    [ Parent ]
    Look at how many you have already on Super Tue (5.00 / 1) (#225)
    by Saul on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:26:28 AM EST
    You almost got half of the states.  No one complains about that.  If you can handle an a presidential election on one day you can handle all primaries on one day.

    [ Parent ]
    Had we done that this primary season (5.00 / 1) (#240)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:46:58 AM EST
    Obama wouldn't have been vetted at all.

    This process has more behind it's reasoning than just counting the votes.


    [ Parent ]

    Break the country up in 5 sections (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by BarnBabe on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:33:37 AM EST
    Within the sections, break up the states to 4 different Tuesdays in May. That would give a fair comparison from the entire country and still allow a break of all at once. We could then concentrate on the states voting on 'their' day.

    [ Parent ]
    But, but (none / 0) (#303)
    by owenaprhys on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    That makes **SENSE**!!

    [ Parent ]
    Early voting should be allowed (none / 0) (#304)
    by splashy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 02:53:50 PM EST
    At least for the week before. That way, if there is better weather, or it fits into someone's schedule better, they can do it before the big day.

    We have that in Arkansas, and it works very well. I really like being able to pick the best day and time  to vote for me. It really helps save time and energy.

    [ Parent ]

    Always meant that to be just assumed it would be (none / 0) (#313)
    by Saul on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:52:21 PM EST
    In fact you can have early voting two weeks up until that day in May.  Also it should include mail in ballots for those that cannot go to the polls.

    [ Parent ]
    Early voting should be allowed (none / 0) (#323)
    by splashy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 05:28:22 PM EST
    At least for the week before. That way, if there is better weather, or it fits into someone's schedule better, they can do it before the big day.

    We have that in Arkansas, and it works very well. I really like being able to pick the best day and time  to vote for me. It really helps save time and energy.

    [ Parent ]

    I just read (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by mogal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:02:30 AM EST
     a post at TM this morn from Florida that says the DNC did approve a re -do  in Fl. providing it was a CAUCUS.  

    Didn't we honor those who died for DEMOCRACY yesterday? Count the Votes!

    Yes, same in MI (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:48:28 AM EST
    Not too hard to figure out why Obama wanted that solution in both states, and Clinton did not. Both states rejected that idea.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, Of Course They Did (5.00 / 1) (#283)
    by creeper on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:56:54 PM EST
    Obama is the DNC's chosen candidate and they'll do what it takes to make sure he's the nominee.

    Democracy?  What's that?

    [ Parent ]

    florida redo (none / 0) (#237)
    by vrusimov on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:41:59 AM EST
    the alternative delegate selection method was a caucus because it is against Florida state law to hold a primary on any other day but the new one they voted on...mail-in voting is also prohibited in Florida...

    I can't help but note the irony of proposed solutions of fire-house caucuses or state conventions or libraries and soft money and etc. etc. ad nauseaum...

    The real question is where was all this creative thinking in Michigan in the 30 days following September 4, 2007.

    ---------------------------------------
    3/17/2008
    Florida Democratic Party chair Karen Thurman:

    "Last week, the Florida Democratic Party laid out the only existing way that we can comply with DNC Rules - a statewide revote run by the Party - and asked for input.
    Thousands of people responded. We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again.

    So we won't.

    A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it. Republican Speaker of the Florida House Marco Rubio refuses to even consider that option. Florida is finally moving to paper ballots, which is a good thing, but it means that at least 15 counties do not have the capacity to handle a major election before the June 10th DNC primary deadline.

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/17/776838.aspx

    ------------
    Note "it's not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the party were to pay for it"...again it is now against state law to hold a presidential preference primary on any other day than the following, buried within the 80 page superbill known as HB 537:

    The bill moves up the date of the primary in Florida to make it no earlier than January 8th and no later than February 7th. The bill specifies that the date of the primary must be on the earlier of either:
    *
    The first Tuesday in February, or
    *
    The first Tuesday immediately following the New Hampshire primary.
    However, the date cannot be earlier than the second Tuesday in January.

    The bill passed the Senate 37-2-1 and the House 118-0-2...that's a pretty strong consensus of support for a bill, and that included Democrats...

    It is arguable that this trainwreck bill should've been sliced into it's more meaningful proposals and given more scrutiny, but like pork barrel projects, everyone stuffed something that they wanted in and pushed it through...imagine the horror of the voters to learn that their votes would'nt count...they've known this since May 2007...Governor Crist, though he had veto power, signed it and set in motion a fabulous disaster.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, and the simple fix to this (5.00 / 2) (#273)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:42:53 PM EST
    is that the DNC changes its June 10 deadline to a later date.  I read that you have an election for other purposes at some point prior to the convention?  If not, if cost is the problem, as I also read, Clinton offered to pay for it.  Etc.

    Main point is that we really, really have to stop treating DNC rules as law.  Even laws can be changed, if by legislatures.  But DNC rules can be changed just by, oh, demoting Prima Donna Brazile. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Mail-in voting not prohibited (none / 0) (#271)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:40:06 PM EST
    in Florida, as it has absentee ballots.  Perhaps there is another term that applies to what you mean -- en masse mail-in voting?

    [ Parent ]
    What's the Difference... (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by fctchekr on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:05:29 AM EST
    I think most people realized that the caucus method couldn't be a fair representation because you could game it in real time.

    But if the party wants to exert its control, which is more than obvious in this election cycle, they will not endeavor to fine tune.

    Now the question is are we going to accept dirty pool from our own party? Well, I'll answer that, there are a lot of Dems who won't.


    Commenter Coolaide (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:35:05 AM EST
    has been banned under six different names, including ObamaMama. Her latest attempt and 19 comments are now erased.

    Tano is questionable (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:08:03 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Commenter Coolaide (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:20:47 AM EST
    LOVE the literation.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks for cleaning up the aisles (5.00 / 2) (#263)
    by Eleanor A on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:30:47 PM EST
    on occasion, JL...

    [ Parent ]
    Moral of the story (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:36:44 AM EST
    If anything if the Democrats do no reform their process, none of this would be of any value.  You cannot continue with a system that has an inherent injustice, voter suppression.  In the long run, we will never win cause the primary process does not reflect who can win or more, who the people want.  

    Dems will not reform... (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by ineedalife on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:09:58 AM EST
    unless they lose in November. If they win they will point out the invisible wisdom of the present system in picking an ideal candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    And don't forget (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:14:39 AM EST
    about the policy of rejecting entire blocks of voters, giving them no place to go....and knowing if these voters aren't supported in the primary for the purpose of winning, they CERTAINLY won't be supported in the White House after a win.

    [ Parent ]
    ...results of the caucuses suggest? (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Fabian on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:45:06 AM EST
    The primaries went for Clinton, not Obama.

    Stunning Report (5.00 / 4) (#102)
    by bmc on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:46:39 AM EST
    ...that caucuses have lower turnout than Primaries. But I think there's something to say about people getting to chose for themselves what kind of system they want in their state, isn't there?

    No one gets to choose for their state which date the general election is held, do they? It's a federal election, held on one specific date, and all states fall in line and pay for the election held in their state on that day, during specified time periods, and then the state counts the votes cast and certifies it with the Sec/State.

    Since primaries are held by the respective parties to determine which candidates will be on the ballot on that specified date in November, I don't see why the states should all have differing methods--i.e, caucuses vs. primaries--held on differing dates. It makes perfect sense to me to hold a single primary on a specified date for each respective party. Caucuses are simply inherently anti-democratic, and are a way to exclude large sections of the populace from exercising their right to vote. I certainly dissent from any notion that delegates should be apportioned on the basis of caucuses! A simple rule for the parties to install would be that delegates are chosen solely by primary vote. Then, most states would change to primary systems. How on earth could these moronic rules have occurred--it's patently idiotic to choose delegates from caucus results!

    These stats just show how undemocratic the Democratic Party rules are. The tragedy is that Democratic Party voters are not being given a voice in selecting their own nominee. Can anyone watch RECOUNT and not see the relevance here? This infuriates me.

    Just count the votes in Florida and Michigan, apportion delegates on the votes earned. Any other option will render Obama illegitimate as a nominee, and Democrats will be horribly tarnished as the party of justice and equal civil rights.  

    In WA state, one of the specious reasons (none / 0) (#319)
    by imhotep on Tue May 27, 2008 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    for ignoring the ballot primary and using the results of the caucus, was that it was NOT an election, but a nominating process.  The Party gets to choose the nominating process.

    [ Parent ]
    I see there has been some argument here (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Anne on Tue May 27, 2008 at 09:58:34 AM EST
    that the caucus system is good because it gives more control and influence to party leaders; if there is one lesson we should be learning from this nominating season it is that vesting the bulk of the control over the process in the "party leaders" is a mistake of significant proportions.  

    Now, for those who will argue that there is a difference between local party leaders and national ones, please do not waste my time our yours: not buying it.

    There may have been a time when the caucus made sense, but that time is long past.  Any system which contracts the time when voices can be heard, which does not have a mechanism for absentee voting, is bad for democracy.

    If every state voted via the primary system, we wouldn't be sitting here haggling over which method of voting was more or less democratic because everyone would be voting the same way.

    What a sad state (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:07:34 AM EST
    of affairs.  Those of us who can clearly see that the DNC is heading headstrong into disaster by nominating Barack Obama to appease a certain demographic.  

    The numbers are telling.  Not even in the best of situations, can a Democrat take the Plains states west of the Mississippi.  In 1992, the only Plains state that went Clinton was OK.  It went back red in 1996.  Solid red line on the western side of the river.  Predominantly, the mountain states have stayed ruby red, w/the exception of CO in 92 and NM in 92,96 and 00.

    After experiencing the travesty and the illegal activities conducted by the Obama campaign here in Texas, and yes, these actions were reported to Voter Protection at the Hillary campaign, all of this will come back to haunt them.  The Republicans are MUCH more astute to gaming the system.  Axelrod will be proven a rank-amateur in the general, as will his candidate.  

    The caucuses are a true joke.  It should all be just one vote, one time, that's it.  Caucuses are antiquated IMO.  We have machines that can take your vote and move on.  I certainly don't have time to mill about a voting precinct for hours on end to write my name on a clipboard and watch poorly trained elections personnel hap-hazardly conduct a so-called caucus.

    That was the story here in TX.  In a word, it was a joke.  No more caucuses.

    One second there... :0 (5.00 / 1) (#270)
    by NWHiker on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:39:44 PM EST
    I certainly don't have time to mill about a voting precinct for hours on end to write my name on a clipboard and watch poorly trained elections personnel hap-hazardly conduct a so-called caucus.

    I've attended a few caucuses (WA state) and my dh is our local precinct committee officer.

    I agree about all the evil of caucuses. I didn't like them last time when I supported Dean (ugh!) and saw how the Kerry people gamed them. I didn't like them this time, as an Edward supporter who would have gone to Clinton if it would have made a diff. The Obama folk were pushy and derisive.

    BUT please please please don't diss the "poorly trained personnel". They're not "personnel" in that they are all Dem party volunteers, at least here in WA. They're been trained but hey! running a caucus isn't something you do every month or so, so despite training and knowledge, it might be a slow process. The Obama folk were flat out nastily suspicious of my dh's math, checking and rechecking it, in case he was cheating (even though he was pretty verbal about being an Edwards guy). That certainly didn't help.

    Anyhow. Sausage being made, it's gross, and we should get rid of them... but don't blame the volunteers. They all give oodles of time to the Dem party (trust me... and no, after this election, he's not signing up again), and do their best. I know there were glitches, I also know that in the 3 caucuses I've been to, the numbers have gotten larger and larger and larger (dh was only PCO for the last two, on the first one we didn't HAVE a PCO and one old old old woman officiated. Hee.), and it's not easy.

    [ Parent ]

    The elections judges (none / 0) (#307)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:11:51 PM EST
    at the precinct levels conduct the caucuses in most if not all the locations.

    Elections judges are PAID by the county elections board here in Fort Worth/Tarrant County.

    So YES the caucuses are conducted by poorly trained PAID personnel.

    I saw the elections judge at my precinct throw her hands up in the air because she didn't know about caucusing here in TX.  Nice lady but it was a challenge because of opposing streams of information being put out.

    [ Parent ]

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 6) (#119)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:12:34 AM EST
    First of all thank you for posting this report and for the brilliant summary.   This report basically summarizes the frustrations with the Democratic party process that are inherent, and highlights why the stripping Florida and Michigan of their delegates, further aggravated the flaws of the process.  The fact that the DNC leadership did not deal properly with the Florida and Michigan delegations will always be a stain on this nomination.  

    DNC had plenty of time to get a solution, actually force a solution, that would have prevented the feelings of grievance.  The process is inherently flawed, now the DNC decision makes it appear like an inside job.  

    When half of the voters, 17.6 million voters feel that the system does not care to hear from them and that all votes are not equal, then frankly why bother?  Just close the doors and pick the candidate.  We will save money.  

    Some thoughts (5.00 / 7) (#123)
    by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:15:43 AM EST
    1. Unfortunately, we're stuck with this system for this term, so as unfair as it might be, Obama is ahead by the rules, and will win by those rules.  We're just going to have to take the lessons learned from this and apply it to 2012 and beyond.

    2. People on some other blogs are like "well, if caucuses are unfair, why didn't Clinton do something about it before the nomination process?"

    Well, first, I'm not sure how much clout Clinton had in determining the process.  Second, no one paid much attention to caucuses vs. primaries before just because the race was always over before it mattered.

    1. one note on comparing the WA and NE primaries is that those have traditionally never counted, and so you don't know what impact that might have had on who might have voted in it.  It's an interesting comparison, but that note probably should be made

    2. I didn't see this stat listed in the article: w/o FL and MI, how many votes cast per pledged delegate won:

    Obama: 10,047
    Clinton: 10,819

    So basically, Clinton has had to win nearly 800 more votes to earn the same number of delegates.

    Let's say, or argument, based on these numbers, each candidate won exactly half of the pledged delegates (1626.5).

    Clinton would have to get 1,255,658 more votes an Obama to get the SAME number of delegates, based on the trend so far.

    Again, not much we can do about it this time, but it definitely needs to be fixed for next time.

    One Problem, Of Course (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by The Maven on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:44:41 AM EST
    is that it seems increasingly unlikely that the Party "leadership" will have any incentive to significantly reform and overhaul the nomination selection system for 2012 and beyond, mostly because Obama's most fervent supporters will presumably be the ones in charge in those states that most need change.

    And regarding your valid point about the WA and NE primaries, one should also consider that it's reasonable to believe that the primary turnouts would have been even higher still had they counted for something (à la TX), so if anything, the comparative ratios might have been even more lopsided.  But considering that DNC principles state that systems are to be designed to maximize voter participation in the selection process, it's hard to see how that reconciles with caucuses generally.

    [ Parent ]

    One possible counter (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:04:41 AM EST
    the one counter I have to that is that Obama probably wont run in 2012 if he somehow loses this year, and if he wins the presidency, he's probably going to be near-unopposed in the nomination in 2012, so 2012 most likely won't have Obama running in any sort of competitive race.  As a result, one would think that it would no longer matter to him personally how the system was set up.

    But your point is noted.

    [ Parent ]

    WA primary is not admissible data in my view (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by Faust on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:15:06 AM EST
    Your point on WA primary is quite correct. I would not try to argue that the WA caucus is more inclusive or better than a primary. But just because primaries are in theory better than caucuses, it does NOT follow that the WA primary in THIS PARTICULAR CASE is more representative of the will of the people of WA than the WA caucus.

    I know many people who only voted in the caucus. Why vote twice? All of the media, the newspapers, local TV, national TV, all repeatedly said that the primary "wouldn't count." In fact there was a lot of anger localy about the stupidity of spending money on a primary that wouldn't count...what a waste people said.

    In fact I had a blowout argument with my wife because she threw out our mail-in ballots. She couldn't understand why I was pissed because in her mind we had already voted in the legitimate contest.

    Both campaigns were very active in WA just prior to the caucus, before the primary...nothing.

    The resuslts in Oregon also tend to indicate that the WA primary is innacurate. The two states tend to be quite similar in demographics, it's certainly not conclusive proof of anything but I have no doubt that if WA had had an actual competetive primary the results would have been much closer to what was seen in Oregon.

    Again none of this is to try to argue against the main point of this thread, which is that primaries are more democratic than caucuses. This point is conceeded. It does not follow therefore follow, however, that the WA primary in this case is more democratic or more representative. There was far to much confusion in state for that.

    [ Parent ]

    Your logic doesn't hold (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:36:31 AM EST
    In statistics, as the sample size increases it tends to more accurately reflect the population. I have nothing to base this on but I would guess that's true for primaries as well

    Sure some people stayed home. So did some Hillary supporters. Bottom line is more people participated.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually what I'm suggesting is (5.00 / 1) (#266)
    by Faust on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:35:21 PM EST
    that the sampling of the primary was corrupted. Here is a sample for you. I have a very small smaple of people that I have asked about the caucus and the election locally. So far I have talked to 15 people that voted in the caucus (my parents, my wife's parents, friends, people in my neighborhood). Of those 15 people only 1 of them voted in both the caucus AND the primary.

    Now of course this sample is totally unscientific but what if this pattern holds? What if 90% of people who participated in the caucus did not vote in the primary? Don't we have a huge sampling problem if several hundred thousand people self selected themselves out of the primary thinking they had already voted?

    Now I very much doubt that it's quite as high as 90%. But it's probably quite high. Most people are not inclined to vote twice especially if they have been told the second vote "doesn't count."

    [ Parent ]

    a family sample isn't random and is biased (none / 0) (#300)
    by ChuckieTomato on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:26:29 PM EST
    and second what if 50 percent of the greater population voted in the primary and not the caucus? It's still larger and more representative than the caucus.

    [ Parent ]
    Many people UNABLE to attend the caucus (5.00 / 1) (#322)
    by imhotep on Tue May 27, 2008 at 05:16:08 PM EST
    voted in the primary.  I know two.  Not a big sample...  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not suggesting (none / 0) (#308)
    by Faust on Tue May 27, 2008 at 03:13:44 PM EST
    my sample is conclusive. It's obviously not. Family members and 9 people from my neighborhood do not a scientific sample make as I noted.

    However, IF such nubmers or even simply 60-70% of caucus goers did not participate in the general it would most certainly alter the margins significantly.

    One might wish to ask for example why Washinton had relatively low turnout in its primary. We had about the same numbers as Oregon and yet we have twice the population. One reason, besides the fact that it was supposedly a "beauty contest" may be that a significant number of people in the state felt that they had already voted.

    I also don't think that elections qualify as a "sampling" of a population. Strictly speaking they don't sample as samples are not from one self selected. This is one of the problems with exit polls for example...exit polls only measure people who wish to be polled...a self selecting group. We would probably want to consult with a pollster or statistician however on that particular topic.

    In any case it's pure speculation as to how Washinton would have voted had we had an actual primary where both campaigns had boots on the ground, where eveyone understood that it counted, and had there not been a caucus that occured two weeks prior. You are of course free to choose your method of calculating the popular vote out of the 10 or so available methods, and I'll choose mine.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd Rec This Comment (5.00 / 1) (#295)
    by creeper on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:07:14 PM EST
    but for the statement that Obama "will win."

    Obama's not there yet, and neither am I.

    [ Parent ]

    That report is some demolition job (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by lambertstrether on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:19:36 AM EST
    Caucuses need to be abolished. The secret ballot was invented for good reasons -- like fair elections.

    Who the heck is P. Cronin?

    Do you think it will be abolished after (none / 0) (#153)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:32:50 AM EST
    this primary though?  My own grandmother was a big caucus chick.  I grew up being taught that it was about being politically active, but it's about power too.  Will the party leaders who have played large roles in the Democratic party caucus systems be willing to do what needs to be done in order to end them?

    [ Parent ]
    Some party leaders will never agree to it (none / 0) (#234)
    by shoephone on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    Because, as you know, the caucuses are first and foremost party-building exercises.

    [ Parent ]
    Who's P. Cronin? (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by tarheel74 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:25:45 AM EST
    I would like to cite this study and findings in other sites and online forums but without knowing more of the author I cannot do so. Please let us know who he or she is. Thanks.

    Jeralyn, thanks for the update -- (5.00 / 2) (#229)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:35:11 AM EST
    as I have been concerned and commenting from the beginning of this about the obstacles to participation by PWD's (as I have been one, temporarily, and have experience with this with a family member with a chronic condition that is defined by the feds as a disability).  And I teach many PWD's at a campus that "specializes" in serving them, so I have learned a lot about accessibility under the new law.

    So I am so appreciative that this author, with her perspective as a PWD, put her considerable skills into this study.  What I have asked again and again, but I am no lawyer, is whether the caucus states are in violation of the ADA?  And wouldn't the ADA trump state parties' practices, if they now -- after more than a century of caucuses vs. recent passage of the ADA -- are defined as discriminatory?

    [ Parent ]

    ADA should trump caucus system (5.00 / 2) (#280)
    by befuddledvoter on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:51:09 PM EST
    I do not see how the caucuses could be exempted from ADA compliance at all.  I also cannot see how the caucuses even comply with the Equal Protection Clause as then severely limit older voters from participation, and also limit those who are non-English speaking and a host of other categories.  I am not a voting rights attorney, not my field, but this seems ripe for litigation.  

    [ Parent ]
    Here's my two cents: (5.00 / 5) (#145)
    by MarkL on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:27:43 AM EST
    Many Obama fans are whining because the popular vote count does not include caucus state (or not all of them). Turn it around: if Obama actually is the favorite of Democrats, that should be clear by looking at vote totals from primary states, which are not selected to help Hillary in any obvious way.
    No, the fact is that Obama knew how to work the caucuses, but that does not reflect his actual support.
    SD's are welcome to take this into account.

    Another thing that bothers me: (5.00 / 5) (#148)
    by MarkL on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:30:02 AM EST
    Hillary wanted to check the signatures in TX, and she was blocked, with Obama partisans crying that it would have been immensely unfair to do so.
    Huh???

    Double voting (5.00 / 5) (#163)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:39:03 AM EST
    TX election auditors were even on the news right after their election and showed boxes and boxes of caucus rosters and ballots. They said they we investigating for people who voted more than once and that criminal charges could be forthcoming depending on what they find. The woman was convinced there was a substantial amount of fraud.

    Never saw or heard another thing about it.


    [ Parent ]

    They suspended all investigations (none / 0) (#166)
    by zfran on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:40:30 AM EST
    and didn't follow-up on any complaints, from Hillary or otherwise. Lawsuit???

    [ Parent ]
    TX still hasn't posted final results (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:56:08 AM EST
    of the caucuses -- only of the primaries.  Yes: lawsuit.

    [ Parent ]
    Because (5.00 / 4) (#216)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:13:44 AM EST
    it's not over until the convention this summer in Austin.

    Being an old Dem pol operative here, I can tell you that the Latinos in the Rio Grande Valley and in S TX that won the state for Hillary are going FULL BOAR against the newbies of the Obama wing.

    These old cats KNOW about gaming the caucus system.  When they're done with the newbies, Obama will come out losing delegates.  Blacks at the convention can scream all they want, but the Latinos, who are predominant at the convention, will push their own influence around.

    I am hoping for a lot of blood on the convention floor.

    [ Parent ]

    To be clear: TX hasn't posted first caucus (none / 0) (#262)
    by Cream City on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:30:30 PM EST
    results.  Yes, as in all caucus states, there are no final recaucusing numbers until June; I ought to have clarified that understanding of the process.

    But your state hasn't posted results from the first caucus, that I can find.  I have kept looking.  Are they somewhere other than where they are supposed to be, on your secretary of state's website?  And if not counted, well, I don't know why the heck your state's taxpayers put up with such nonsense.

    (Btw, re your capitalized words, um, a boar is a hoglike animal, and I know you don't mean to impute that to Clinton.  You mean "full bore.":-)

    [ Parent ]

    i wil say it again (none / 0) (#298)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:18:40 PM EST
    damn homonyms

    [ Parent ]
    TX is not the subject here (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:30:55 AM EST
    but will be in a future post soon. Please comment on this report.

    [ Parent ]