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Wednesday Evening Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:40:17 PM EST
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Talk about Florida and Michigan. It is required of everyone. Not really, this is an Open Thread.

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    Wednesday Evening Open Thread | 211 comments (211 topical)
    Awwwk. No can do. (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:44:33 PM EST


    Not much left to say (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:56:56 PM EST
    See ya in Denver oculus ;)

    Parent
    Let's talk about "concepts" (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:56 PM EST
    My six year old has discovered that plants grow from seeds.  (They don't do tissue culture in kindergarten.)  He is now totally taken with the idea and now wants to plant seeds every where.  I'm convincing him that the lawn is not a good place to plant seeds.

    I seem to remember being just a little bit older when I started my own little gardens.  

    Mom is doing battle with the urban deer already!  They ate her tulips but not her neighbors'.  We blame her organic gardening for making her plants so tasty. :P

    Parent

    I love six year olds! (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:15 PM EST
    I made my own topsy turvy planters this past weekend and put tomatoes and zucchini in them.  I wonder if the hanging upside down planting thing is really going to work and be superior.

    Parent
    Re: topsy-turvy planters (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:16:48 PM EST
    Tried one last year without much success - but that could have been the tomato plants - who knows?

    Have grape tomatoes in it this year, but have put the "big" tomato plants (and herbs) in Earth Boxes.  If you haven't tried Earth Boxes, check out their website: www.earthbox.com

    Am determined to have real tomatoes to eat in abundance (tomato sandwiches, caprese salad, fresh tomato sauce, maybe even dry some)!

    Parent

    I love earth boxes and for me they are a must have (none / 0) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:59 PM EST
    because our property is loaded with black walnut trees and they have made the soil not too plant friendly for most plants.  Add to it that most pests don't find earth boxes that attractive and I find I have a earth box garden.

    Parent
    Do you know anything about growing fruit trees? (none / 0) (#139)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:31:38 PM EST
    I recently planted some seeds from some very delicious honey tangerine trees and they are now sprouting.  The instructions on the pods said to keep them in the pods until they reach the top of the container.  But now they are just about there and not sure what to do with them? Do they go to small pots, then to the ground?

    Parent
    I'm not an expert, (none / 0) (#149)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:39:44 PM EST
    but I think you could just put them in the ground, if you don't have many plant-curious pets about. The young plants just (in my experience) need to be more protected than a more mature plant.

    Parent
    Thank you so much. (none / 0) (#160)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:46:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Growing down here is a very new experience for me (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:06 PM EST
    I killed most everything the first year.  I have started a few trees in pots, so I would say that is a good idea this year and keep them outdoors as weather permits.  Move them indoors if frost is suspected or extreme weather. Next year/spring I would plant them inground as trees down here grow three times as fast as I'm used to living in the West.  Trees that I kept potted here for longer than a year did not fair as well as the ones I only kept potted for a year.  mmmmmmmmmmmmm honey tangerine......I have had good luck so far with a dwarf keylime.  It sometimes frosts here so I had to plant it in an area of our property that gets extreme sun and it has done really well in spite of a little cold.

    Parent
    I have a key lime tree that I was given as a (none / 0) (#178)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:01:29 PM EST
    seedling.  I kept it in a pot for a while (it was an illegal key lime tree, we had citrus cancre and the state cut alot of trees down in infected areas.  I would hide the tree in the garage whenever an inspector was in the neighborhood. It never did get cancre) After I planted it in the ground, it stopped bearing fruit. I will these newbies in a pot this year, and move them next year to the ground. Thank you too for the advice.

    Parent
    Problem when planting from seed is (none / 0) (#190)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:09:41 PM EST
    that most fruits we get in this country are produced from grafted trees and seeds usually do not bear true to form.  You may end up with a non-bearing tree or with a fruit that is not what you expected.

    Parent
    You may have broken my heart. Those honey (none / 0) (#193)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:12:23 PM EST
    tangerines were so good.

    Parent
    Sorry :-( just that it may happen (none / 0) (#204)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:20:50 PM EST
    who knows you might get lucky.  BTW citrus seedlings may take 5-8 yrs to bear fruit.

    Parent
    Let us know (none / 0) (#144)
    by suisser on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:36:57 PM EST
    if that works - I'm curious.  

    Parent
    I will (none / 0) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:48:43 PM EST


    Parent
    Fabian (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:10 PM EST
    Okay, so I swore I wouldn't post here anymore so as to quit annoying the old timers, but I just had to tell you this.

    The hummingbirds came back full force this spring and were busy causing as much chaos as they did last year,

    HOWEVER ... they have met their match: orchard orioles who've claimed the feeders and gotten into all kinds of snits with the hummers.

    :D

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:13:00 PM EST
    Those hummers are feisty little critters.  There's something incredibly endearing about something so tiny and so belligerent.  I watched one once vigorously defend a seed feeder he couldn't even use himself from all comers for a good hour.  No creature on earth can catch them, so they have nothing to lose.

    (Envy you those orchard orioles!)


    Parent

    I only get two little dudes at my feeder here (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:03 PM EST
    There's so much in lower AL for the hummers to sip I only get to see the lazy ones.  I finally took my seed feeder down.  It hung there for over a year and I still hadn't had to refill it yet because once again only lazy seed eaters showed up to snack for my pleasure.

    Parent
    They're terrible! (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:01 PM EST
    You couldn't even have a conversation in my front yard last year because there were hummers zooming everywhere attacking each other.

    :D

    They sound like squabbling mice.

    Parent

    I love them (none / 0) (#167)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:52:51 PM EST
    I've always thought they sounded like tiny dolphins. I love it when they fly up to you and do the 'scan'. I got to see one take a bath sitting on the cable wire while it was misting a couple of days ago. Endless entertainment.

    Parent
    My new furnace (none / 0) (#200)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:17:20 PM EST
    vents out the side of my house.  There's a huge tree right near it, and the released steam travels up the tree.  The winter birds discovered that they could perch in the tree and get warmed.  There were literally hundreds of them there on really cold days.  My neighbors called it our "tweety spa".

    Parent
    Oooh...ooh (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:50 PM EST
    When I was a kid, back in the old country, we used to take, lentils, beans, etc.  and germinate them.  Here is a web page that sort shows the process, it was great.  We would pick out our seeds and set them in the December 21, when the days start getting longer.  The story was that the day, grew every day by the size of a seed.  It's fast and very very immediate gratification kind of thing and you can do indoors.  

    Parent
    reminds me of when i was a kid (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:12 PM EST
    and you could get those gerariums in the Super Sugar Crisps cereal boxes.  I also remember getting the uncooked pinto beans my Mom had and planting them.  It was SO cool to watch them sprout and grow.

    Ah, the joys of childhood.

    Parent

    My way of keeping critters away from my garden (none / 0) (#171)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:54:46 PM EST
    is to plant native fruits and plants around the fences and borders.  Birds and animals usually will go for the tart fruits and native plants and usually keep away from my Berries Peaches, vegetables etc.  I can't remember right off the bat but in Organic Gardening they usually have good tips on how to keep deers away and things like that.

    Parent
    Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by ajain on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:02 PM EST
    today, said that Clinton was blaming the state of her candidacy on sexism.

    That is just absurd. She called the press out on the sexism in the press. Clearly she was talking specifically about Chris Matthews, Tim Russert and the rest of the NBC/MSNBC gang and they are trying to hit back at her in the lowest possible ways. I mean can anyone be more stupid and outrageous than ridiculous crowdd at MSNBC?

    Rachel Maddow said that?! (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:46:43 PM EST
    She should lose her job. Oh my fffing gawd, that is absolutely fffing ridiculous.

    Yet another knife in HRC's back from a "liberal" woman who should know better.

    Parent

    I''m really pleased Clinton (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:17 PM EST
    emphasized this in her speech last night and I hope she keeps the pressure on, no matter what "they" say.

    Parent
    Me too! (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:52 PM EST


    Parent
    She was interviewed (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:27 PM EST
    with Geraldine Ferraro by Meredith Vieria.  Rachel pretty much said that it's a generational thing.  Us old biddies don't get that the things that Obama does that we think are sexist aren't.  Young folks know that it's just joking around and doing "hip-hop" things. Gerry wasn't buying it.  Meredith seemed to, though.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#151)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:40:43 PM EST
    we just need to get a sense of humor and stop being so sensitive.  Where have I heard that argument before?  Oh yes -- everywhere during my entire lifetime.

    Parent
    That's funny (none / 0) (#197)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:13:48 PM EST
    The brushing of the shoulders may be generational. The rest of his behavior is right in there with the behavior/demeaning words from many of his supporters and endorsers who are well past 60 years old, so that negates the generational theme.

    Obama reminds me very much of my abusive ex-husband. It's not generational.
     

    Parent

    Obama News Network (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:51:49 PM EST
    No one takes them seriously. Honestly, no one thinks of NBC as a news organization anymore. NOt even Obama supporters.

    Parent
    Hahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:57 PM EST
    I'm sure that the folks at the Daily Obama would disagree. ;-)

    Parent
    Well that;s my point (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    you see.

    Like Josh Marshall, MSNBC is no longer trusted as a news organization. They simply are not. Either of them.

    Parent

    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:56:09 PM EST
    it hurt when they finally went after PR, right? It's an upside down world when Fox is fairer to dems than other channels. I know they have an ulterior motive here though--if Obama's the nominee they are working on getting the clinton dems.

    Parent
    Hmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:13:27 PM EST
    They do a fine job of parroting every word of criticism those pundits spew.

    I saw some really awful people on FOX this afternoon (changed the channel before I got their names) and they were repeating the $30M+ debt in the Clinton campaign. They won't correct themselves like the newspaper reporters do.


    Parent

    The more die-hard Obama supporters... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Alec82 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:18:15 PM EST
    ...are probably skeptical about any news network.  His coalition has the strongest reasons to doubt media objectivity.  

     To me, Matthews is a firm example of what I do not want political news coverage to become: a contact sport where the loudest voice dictates the framing of an issue.  Which, I suppose, is why I am a fan of Washington Week, when I want a similar format.

     All of these media outlets are disturbing, and where I often see bias the most significant trend is sensationalism.  

     FOX, however, is in a class all its own.

    Parent

    Well, they have to blame it on something (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:27 PM EST
    The media isn't going to admit they did what they did.

    Not sure why any Hillary supporters are even watching those programs. They need the viewers to support their sick habit. Only way to send them a strong message is to cut down their viewership so they can't get more than $50. a minute for an ad.

    Rachel, Tim, Keith, Dan, Dave, etc. will all be gone if MSNBC can't afford to pay them.


    Parent

    I don't usually watch TV but can't (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:29 PM EST
    resist when election results are in the offing.  Paul Begala must be good, because I absolutely agreed w/him last night.  

    Parent
    This (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:19 PM EST
    is essentially the same reaction as after the first debate when her campaign pointed out the 'piling on'. She was told to stop playing the gender card. When she pointed out how inappropriate Shuster's remarks about Chelsea were, she was lambasted for trying to 'get the guy fired'.

    This is the reaction women usually get when they point out that the playing field isn't level.  They are 'blaming' others for their own shortcomings, failures, etc.  It's shocking to hear it in the media but last night I heard a conversation on CNN where Alex Castellanos said that Hillary gets called the 'b' word because she actually is one.  My guess is he'll keep his job.

    It will be interesting to see the effect of this campaign on feminist goals and initiatives.

    Parent

    Even Media Matters doesn't (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:37 PM EST
    address it. They went after Chris Matthews early on, but they've not done anything about any other TV coverage, or print coverage that is biased against Hillary.

    Parent
    And the ultimate irony.... (5.00 / 5) (#141)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:35:29 PM EST
    ...is how she is criticized for not making more of her historic candidacy - asked in all innocent bewilderment. "Why doesn't she give a speech on gender and history and her groundbreaking path, as Obama did on race?" It's such a joke - the minute gender issues and/or sexist media coverage is brought up, she's 'playing the victim' or 'playing the sexist card'.

    Like a lot of women, she's learned to shut up about it or else.

    Parent

    It's still THEM making gender the issue (none / 0) (#203)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:20:26 PM EST
    Hillary is not running as a woman. She's running because she honestly believes (and I support her in this) she is the right person to bring the country back toward it's better days. The mess it's in right now might take more than 8 years to fix.

    I just saw Karl Rove on FOX admitting the Republican brand is in trouble. Wonder who he thinks caused that? GWB and Cheney didn't win 2 elections alone. HAH!

    Parent

    Maddow got into the treehouse and barred the door (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Ellie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:36:23 PM EST
    She wouldn't be the first or the last to get her seat at the table by offering to watch the door.

    Too bad Tweety & Obamann's is so lame no one's trying to get in. Maybe that's why it feels like she's still got her integrity.

    Parent

    That was an interesting (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:11 PM EST
    FL and MI thread.

    The Obamans are out in droves. They are on the losing side of this argument and they know it.

    Democrats cannot be FOR not counting votes. That's just ludicrous.

    If counting votes is "bad" for Obama's candidacy, then perhaps we should realize that he is not the best person to be the nominee.

    See #7 (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM EST
    It got to where I had to actually laugh at one other poster.  First time ever posting and we get the full on drama....
    downfall of our party, running against President McCain her plan (2012), anyone with any intelligence and impartial point of view can see, half of the party staying home in November, who played by the rules, taken away by party insiders (like they aren't rigging this for Obama), Hillary's coup attempt,if Hillary takes it to the convention...an extremely weakened nominee without much of a campaign war chest (apparently it's Clinton's fault Obama hasn't gotten on to raising GE funds?) try to bring whatever is left of the Democratic Party back together again.

    Hillary has lost. It's over. If she cares about the good of the party at all, (waaahhhh) after June 3rd, she should suspend her campaign and help unite the party behind it's nominee, Senator Barack Obama.

    Red/Orange/Green/Yellow Codes all in one.  You just can't make this stuff up. IACF, IACF!!!

    Parent

    Great Post: In a nutshell! (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:11:44 PM EST
    I think you have all the colors down pat.

    Parent
    Obama is in Florida today, too (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:52 PM EST
    His speech was about how awful McCain is, and he didn't bring up the primary. He was there just to ask for their votes in November.

    The negative campaigning he is doing against McCain is politics as usual, and the Republican pundits took him apart this morning on FOX News.

    The article attached to the previous MI & FL thread was great, and I think it's great he's already sparring with McCain because it will show the SD's he can't handle it and we'll still have time to fix it at convention.


    Parent

    I'm tired of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Grace on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:51 PM EST
    yelling out "I love you too."  It seemed like he threw in extra ones in Florida while he was stalking the stage.  

    I've only listened to a few of his speeches but it seems like, everytime he finds a line that works, he works it to death.  He uses it until you are sick of hearing it.    

    At least McCain and Hillary come out with new material pretty often.  Obama is like a record with a scratch.  

    Parent

    God (5.00 / 8) (#4)
    by Robert Oak on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:48 PM EST
    More lovely Alexrod machine, now they are claiming that Hillary will destroy the Democratic party and Obama's grand run by demanding the MI/FL votes be counted.

    These people are pathetic frankly.  It's the DNC and frankly the Obama maniacs who will lose an election where one could run a potted plant against a Republican and win...if they had just acted with the least bit of decency and letting individuals plain decide their votes...oh but no.

    CNN (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:54 PM EST
    John King and some other faces I don't recognize were talking about how the Obamas would not have brought race into this if Bill hadn't in SC.  What?  Where were these reporters last summer with all of Michelle's comments about black people getting shot at gas stations?  Or even more recently with JJJr's stupid remarks?  

    Okay, I'm back to boycotting.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:08 PM EST
    That is not an issue now. Florida and Michigan and the voters are.

    Who will be for the voters of Florida and Michigan?

    Parent

    You would think everyone would be for them (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:52 PM EST
    but some people seem confused or in denial or something.  I was talking to an Obama supporter today and he kept talking about the rules and how Hillary's changed her position.  That's such a bizarre thing to say.  Votes are floating around out there not being counted, and people still want to talk about how calculating Hillary is.

    I really do not understand it.

    Parent

    Kayla (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by cpa1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:43:22 PM EST
    Did you watch "the worst political team on television" water down, cut apart and minimize what Bill Clinton said about the Obama race injecting?

    I think the Clintons need to go after Obama for what he did so that this never happens again.  Really, they have plenty to say at the convention about why she is the logical nominee but exposing in real terms what Obama did could give her the nomination.  

    I was not a Hillary supporter at first.  Then I became one because I hated Obama.  My opposition to her, besides voting to authorize the war and not admitting it was a mistake, was that I had in my head that the Clintons would do or say anything.  She has become one class act.  There are things she's done I don't like but what politician hasn't.  

    To appease BTD, she is damn right about Michigan and Florida and she needs to shame the Democrats into counting everyone of those votes and she needs to call for the removal of Howard Dean for overwhelmingly overstepping his authority to help the candidate he likes.  We know he had a vendetta against the Clintons because they didn't want him to be the DNC chair.

    What it all boils down to is that Obama is not the logical candidate and once the Republicans expose his lies and his lack of experience and show what an evil team he put together, many Democrats will run to McCain.  

    I always said if Obama would attract the kind of foaming at the mouth rabid supporters that he attracted, who think nothing about injecting hate and division wherever they could, he is not someone I or many Democrats want in the White House.  McCain will not be able to stop the expiration of the Bush tax cuts with a Democratic congress and I think he will surprise us with how not conservative he can be.  Once he has the presidency, he can tell them all the F off.  I think McCain's unknowns are a lot less problematic to many Democrats than Obama's.

    If Obama can be stupid enough to exclude Florida and Michigan because he and Michelle want this now, and don't want to take this to the convention because that is what they are avoiding by disenfranchising over 2 million people, he is not fit for the presidency.  Yes I'd suck it up and vote for him over Bush or Cheney but not over McCain and I think that is what we will see in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, West Va, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and New Jersey.  I'd bet Obama would lose NJ.

    Parent

    BTD (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:52:07 PM EST
    The Obama campaign stated in the NYT their general election strategy

    1. Register more AA's to vote to offset the loss of the white vote.
    2. Have another speech about Rev. Wright.
    3. Talk more about patriotism.

    No one is clueless. You are never going to get enough AA's to offset his massive hemorraghing of the white vote.

    No 2. is stupid. Another speech won't work. The first one didn't. Obviously he's been severly damaged by Wright. He can't undo that damage with a speech. There's nothing that can undo the damage.

    No 3. The patriotism problem is caused largely by who he is: strange name, living in a foreign country, attending TUCC for 20 years etc. Wearing a flag pin is really trying to put a bandage on a gaping sore and since he made all those statements about not wearing them he now sounds like a waffling panderer to boot.

    If he's nominated I'm glad I have no dog in those fights.

    Patriotism? Hmmmmm (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:56 PM EST
    I see a General Clark being floated as VP soon then.

    Parent
    Thomas Jefferson (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:12 PM EST
    Abe Lincoln or Geo Washington as running maates couldn't help Barack with his patriotism once the GOP 527s are done with him

    Parent
    yeah (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:06 PM EST
    but he can't solve Obama's problems unless he declines the nomination and takes vp. with Clark on top. That's the only way that problem would be solved. Bentsen didn't help Dukakis much did he?

    Parent
    Gen. Clark will probably tell him (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:09 PM EST
    "ask me again after you get nominated."

    Parent
    For Hillary! :-) (none / 0) (#78)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:15 PM EST
    Talk about a landslide for the Democrats in November...

    Parent
    I'd be surprised (none / 0) (#114)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:25 PM EST
    How long did Clark last in the primaries when he tried to run for president? I think a military VP attaches the administrations plan to remain actively in conflict in the Middle East.

    Parent
    Obviously (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:23:53 PM EST
    You know not a damn thing about General Clark.

    Next question.

    Parent

    Now THAT's someone I could vote for (none / 0) (#147)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:52 PM EST
    I've always loved Wes Clark.

    Parent
    I heard (5.00 / 10) (#24)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:38 PM EST
    they were also going to talk more and more about Obama's wife, grandmother, and mother to get the woman vote.

    I can't speak for all Hillary supporters or Obama skeptics, but I really do not care about his story or his family.  It's one of the things about him I don't like.  He talks too much about himself.

    Ugh, and no more big speeches!  Blah.  This guy is so unbelievably boring.

    Parent

    Yes. Michelle Obama (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:50 PM EST
    THAAAT'S a topic changer.

    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by janarchy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:59:14 PM EST
    the family story changes depending on where he is and who he is telling it to. But you're right, it's all about "Me, Me, Me" (him, him, him). Maybe if he talked about real issues and pay attention to the voters rathen than stroking his own ego.

    Parent
    Won't work (5.00 / 10) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:03:05 PM EST
    He is running the most clueless campaign since Dukakis. Of course, Brazille ran that campaign so maybe she's giving him advice.

    Grandmother he threw under the bus? LOL.

    The problem is his arrogant condescending attitude toward women. Talking about women is probably going to make it come out even more.

    Parent

    Grandma (5.00 / 4) (#156)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:02 PM EST
    and I can compare tread marks.

    Parent
    Not one of the three (none / 0) (#119)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:22:24 PM EST
    are people who I would aspire to be like.

    Bad plan.


    Parent

    Stick w/the Obama daughters. (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:53 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#176)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    They are indeed adorable.

    Parent
    Obama: praise for Clinton for his daughters' sake! (none / 0) (#199)
    by noholib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:15:18 PM EST
    Did you catch this in the online NY Times this afternoon, in the Jeff Zeleny article on Obama in Florida?

    " ... he praised Mrs. Clinton's historic contribution to the campaign - reprising a line from his Tuesday speech in Iowa about how she has broken barriers to make America a better place for his daughters ..."

    Is that not the most smarmy thing to do ?

    Now he praises her in a patronizing elegaic tone, as if to thank her for her fight to bring down gender barriers, when he has tacitly condoned sexism and misogyny, even contributed to it not a little himself, and certainly benefitted enormously from it?

    Note his narcissicism (often the twin of charisma) -- it's his daughters that Clinton has benefited.

    Parent

    With regards to #1 (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:05 PM EST
    Here's another piece for his GE strategy.. high schools, colleges, churches and scouring consumer marketing data (IPOD!).  His goal in FL is to prove he has a plan to get the superdeez.  Make up deficits by getting new voters and microtargeting.

    Parent
    That's sure to win back (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:23:29 PM EST
    the groups he's lost.

    NOT

    Parent

    Sounds (4.50 / 2) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:06 PM EST
    mighty desperate to me and surely a losing strategy to boot. There are only so many voters that are going to vote for him due to his demographic problems. If he finds every one of them it probably wouldn't be enough. And then there's the problem of actually getting them to show up at the polls. These types of voters aren't really that realiable either.

    If he was really concerned about FL he could fight to have their delegation seated.

    Parent

    How will they set up a Wright speech? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by ineedalife on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:27 PM EST
    He can't give another Wright speech unless there is an event to precipitate it. The tapes are already out there so a 527 commercial mentioning Wright is not enough. If Wright comes out and says something inflammatory to take center-stage it will have to be staged. Fool me once, etc. etc.

    Parent
    If he's busy writing another off-topic speech (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:25:38 PM EST
    with Wright and race as the central theme, they won't be prepared for whatever the Republicans really have in store for him. They weren't born yesterday.

    Axelrod does a really great Rove impersonation, but he's just an imitation, a cheap one, at that.

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:38:37 PM EST
    It sounds completely stupid to me. Is this his answer to every problem, a speech? A speech is where you get to ask the questions and answer them yourself.

    If he is so concerned about Wright he should have a press conference and answer questions like "why did you stay there for 20 years?" etc.

    Parent

    LOL! (none / 0) (#181)
    by ghost2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:03:15 PM EST
    A speech is where you get to ask the questions and answer them yourself.


    Parent
    a real leader (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Kensdad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:10 PM EST
    if obama were a real leader, he would have told the DNC that a 48-state process was undemocratic...  and he would have done it a long time ago...  he should have been saying what hillary said today that fundamental democratic principles (of counting all the votes) trump DNC rules.

    apparently, obama is "doing anything to win"...  something like getting 4 opponents disqualified by hiring a Harvard ballot expert to challenge signatures on their petitions...

    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:59 PM EST
    If only he would stand for SOMETHING I believe in - and prove it by his actions - then I might be able to think about voting for him if he's the nominee.

    So far, he has done absolutely everything wrong with regards to HRC's voters. He has insulted and dismissed us and refused to do anything to make us feel more comfortable with his candidacy.

    I don't know what he could do to make up for it, but agreeing to count the votes of MI and FL would be a start.

    Parent

    If he were a real leader, he would have (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:28 PM EST
    honored his own promise to the people of Illinois and he wouldn't be running this year. He knew he wouldn't have enough experience, and he doesn't. Real leaders don't go at top speed into unknown territory.

    Obama has never done anything well. So, handing him the democrats only opportunity to govern the Whitehouse for the next four years is beyond my ability to comprehend. The guy needs to learn discipline, so let's see if he can develop into a strong leader by giving him the presidency.

    Parent

    An old Hamilton Jordan interview (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM EST
    tape was played on NPR yesterday.  He sd. Carter's first campaign started four years before the election and that its best to try things out early and out of the public eye.  Of course, that was before YouTube.  

    Parent
    Sad, sad, sad! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by caramel on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:57:09 PM EST
    that in the world of Talkleft these days there is no room for anything else but the primaries when SO MUCH important stuff is happening in the US and the rest of the world... I'm very disappointed and that's an understatement. I really used to like this blog!

    Since this is an open thread, (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:57 PM EST
    highlight the issues that concern you.

    Parent
    Oh I dunno (5.00 / 8) (#97)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:53 PM EST
    A TalkLeft old timer said that to me last night, and I agreed that, yes, it's quite disruptive here right now - that is, the presence of people like me is disruptive.

    But, you know what? I think what's going on with the Dems is pretty huge. Yes, I know, everyone is talking unity and now the Obama supporters have decided they need to "reach out" to everyone they've alienated (including former Obama supporters like me).

    But they're a day late and a dollar short.

    Iow, there's a real, genuine split and it could have profound consequences. Too many people like me have decided they just don't want anything to do with it, and have returned to their previous feelings that politics are for monied people who know how to scream really loudly, but really don't have anything to do with people like me - because we don't have a voice - because we can't buy it and/or are unwilling to base our positions on how bullying we can be instead of things which are a bit more - hm - how should I put it? - ethical and humane, perhaps?

    We've got a big problem, iow.

    And it could lead to very bad consequences for this nation.

    I think that's worth talking about myself.

    Parent

    There is an article down the page about Gitmo. (none / 0) (#39)
    by tigercourse on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:26 PM EST
    Did you comment in there?

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:06 PM EST
    This blog has always been about the latest happenings and the law.  The Democratic primaries have been one accusation and one lawsuit after another and is the biggest latest happening going on out there.

    Parent
    I somewhat agree with the commenter (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:51 PM EST
    though.  Myanmar, China, Tibet:  not happening here.  

    Parent
    Tell us what we should say about it (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:29 PM EST
    My thoughts - terrible terrible stuff.

    What else should I say?

    Parent

    I had, as you know, a great deal of (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:42 PM EST
    admiration for the woman at Docudharma who did her own research on U.S. sanctions against the junta in Myanmar, who escaped the sanctions (read:  U.S. controlled oil companies); also the twice daily updates on world events.  Of course, I could go over there and read those, but I might miss another post here about unity ticket or MI/FL!

    Parent
    Interestingly (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:52 PM EST
    As I told Buhdy, who hates me now BTW, that the reason I was taking a hiatus from DD was to be a horserace blogger.

    And I have been true to my word.

    Parent

    They took a break (none / 0) (#131)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:49 PM EST
    juror family emergency.  

    Parent
    Don't you get just a teeny bit bored though? (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:30:38 PM EST


    Parent
    World events have been observed here (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:03 PM EST
    but with the legal twist to things most of the focus has always been about U.S. political/legal issues.

    Parent
    I have to apply duct tape re the posts (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST
    about criminal justice in the U.S. or world.  Once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor.  

    Parent
    Like what? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:31 PM EST
    Open thread and you can not suggest some topics for us?

    Parent
    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:07:31 PM EST
    A Columbus bar is getting ready to challenge the state wide smoking ban.

    A pro life group is going to press a First Amendment suit in Ohio.  It's about the 30 day moratorium before the elections on "issues" ads that use a candidate's name.  No other groups have joined the action yet.

    I'm sure there's another local legal issue, but I forget right now.

    Parent

    A Circuit Court of Appeals struck down (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:45 PM EST
    a criminal statute on partial birth abortion as narrowing latest SCOTUS opinion on the subject.  

    Parent
    ugh (none / 0) (#206)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:23:11 PM EST
    PLEASE don't use that awful right-wing phrase.  "Third trimester" is the medical designation.

    Parent
    Sad, sad, sad! (none / 0) (#76)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:11:43 PM EST
    Like the Rezko trial?
    I have not seen the MSM mention any of the important things either..the only thing i see them saying and doing is bashing Hillary with pure sexist stuff..appalling i tell you!!


    Parent
    Nothing happening in Rezko until jury (none / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:49 PM EST
    reaches or fails to reach a verdict.  

    Parent
    I'm listening to to the FL speech now (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:14 PM EST
    Hillary clearly has the better of the argument.

    It's time to talk about the meeting last August again. Anyone who decided to apply the nuclear option on FL and Mi on that meeting should be expelled from the committee.

    [cough] Donna Brazile [cough] (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:09 PM EST


    Parent
    Hillary supporters to demonstrate at DNC (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Radiowalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:02:58 PM EST
    meeting in Washington, DC on May 31
    Here is the email that was forwarded to me today.  If I could be there, I would.

    Dear Fellow Hillary Supporters,
    If you believe that the DNC must honor our core democratic principles and enfranchise the people of MI and FL and their respective delegations,
    If you believe that Hillary Clinton is best for our party, most likely to win in November and best for our country,
    If you believe the contest for the democratic nomination must not end before all of the votes from each State and US Territory have been cast and counted and that nominating conventions, not candidates (or the media), declare the nominee,
    If you believe that the media and DNC have underestimated the passion, strength, intensity and determination of Hillary supporters and the power of the women's vote,

    Then Join a group of Hillary supporters who are planning to visit Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 31st to attend the meeting of the DNC Rules Committee and rally outside the DNC headquarters in support of Michigan and Florida;
    ....the DNC Rules Committee is meeting that day to make a determination with respect to MI and FL and we think it is essential to convene in Washington to support our cherished democratic principles, help enfranchise MI and FL and to show that Hillary has equally high numbers of passionate, devoted supporters who believe fervently that she will be the better general candidate and best president.  
    Our purpose is not to divide the party or attack the DNC or Senator Obama.  At the same time, Hillary's strong support cannot be dismissed in DNC efforts to unify the party.

    Please let us know if you will be able to join us.  E-mail rsvp@buellofficesf.com

    The Office of Susie Tompkins Buell

    & Mark Buell

    P.O. Box 29921

    San Francisco, CA 94129-9921

    t: 415.248.7820 | f: 415.441.6381

     

    I'd rather a strong contingent of MI and FL (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:20 PM EST
    Dem.s show up.

    Parent
    I'd rather a strong contingent of MI and FL (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:42 PM EST
    Fl had alot of busses go up there approx a month ago with lots and lots of Floridians..no MSM reported it!!..now i know that will surprise no one here!!
    Many of our state congress people were with the Fl contingency that went up there and stayed up there with them.
    Unfortunately i could not go as i was out of the country..but they had alot of Floridians who went ..and took that long bus ride to DC!!

    fly

    Parent

    My husband made some signs for that. We (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:23 PM EST
    donated the blue count our votes signs.  Yes, it was a large group. The local paper did run a second page story on it.  I saw no national tv coverage on it.

    Parent
    I Think You Should Stand Firm In Your Belief (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:06 PM EST
    Rules are important. Nothing should supersede the RULES. Voters? Not important. The Rules are everything. Winning the GE? No, the Rules are much, much more important than having a Dem in the WH.

    Bright line theory. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:33 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes, RULES (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:40:58 PM EST
    The election of the president of the United States has become a game. Pure and simple. The rules are constantly put ahead of the goal, and the side who bends those rules to the point just before they snap keeps getting away with accusing the opponent of their own sins.

    As in any game, the rules are intended to create fair play, but the DNC is led by that frustrating player who has discovered a way to cheat by using (not following) the rules.

    It reminds me of the deck of cards GWB handed out to the military at the start of the war. How much do you suppose the Pentagon spent on those cards? Clearly, that too, started out as a game.

    Parent

    Votes were cast (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    Ignoring votes that were cast is undemocratic. Period.

    If you think the outcome in FL would have been different had the magic fairy waved her wand before the election ane said "yes, this will count" then you are the one suffering from an inability to reason.

    This afternoon (5.00 / 9) (#132)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:27:17 PM EST
    I had an electrician come to my house to quote me a price for some work to be done.  My home looks like an HRC headquarters.  I have about 17 HRC placards in my two front bay windows.

    ANYWAY-the electician comes in, big ol' bubba (I'm in Fort Worth, Texas...republican country BIG TIME!).  Naturally we started talking politics after the biz of getting the quote was done.  He told me that he voted Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush and voted Clinton in the primary.  He thought that he would go McCain in the GE but not sure.  He did say that the time that Barack did the flicking of his fingers on his shoulder with regard to Hillary turned him off bigtime.

    He said that was a major topic of conversation at a job site he was a few days ago.  One lone BHO supporter stood up and was basically beat down (verbally of course) regarding this action.

    This electrician is a snapshot of how the REAL, REAL working class sees Barack.  Arrogant and out of touch.

    The electrician closed by saying he didn't care about Obama being of AA extraction, but his disrespect for Hillary was not what "a real gentleman would do."

    Be afraid Barack supporters.  Be very afraid.  These so called low-info voters got your guy's number.  He will be walloped in the GE if he makes it.

    And it will be ALL his OWN fault.

    sellability (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by pixelpusher on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:33:47 PM EST
    There is one blasphemy the Obamists won't tolerate, and that is to wonder if maybe, just maybe, Obama is not the best candidate to represent their message.

    Their message seems to be something vague like, "We like diversity.  We don't like Bush, and we kind of don't like the war.  We hate the Clintons.  We're smart and hip and edumacated and it's OUR TURN NOW to run the world!"

    But Obama is such a buggy candidate it isn't funny.  His background is just odd - even by immigrant-makes-good-in-America standards.  (Anyone notice that it's not a coming-to-America story, but a LEAVING AMERICA story?  His father left America and then his mother left.  Wow, that really touches the hearts of the average American struggling to make it here - whatever their color or creed.)  You have to explain and re-explain and then try to get people to read his books.  And if you don't want to read his books, you're just "Stupid!  Stupid!" (or worse, racist).  

    However, you can't tell that to the Obamites.  His personal unsellability to vast tracts of Americans is not considered a "bug" - it's considered a "feature."  If you don't "get" him, then screw you!  You're not hip!  You're being left behind!

    New revolution?  I think not.  It's just good old American triumphalism clad in a dashiki... a children's crusade merrily marching over an economic cliff.

    I think you're on the right track here. (none / 0) (#208)
    by chancellor on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:27:28 PM EST
    Obama's problem with middle class voters is not due so much to race; it's because he's perceived as "foreign". Even the blacks who oppose him say that he hasn't really experienced "black America" the way they have. He is multi-racial, but his African heritage is truly African rather than AA. He is neither fish nor fowl, and his unwillingness to stand up strongly on any particular issue only serves to make voters feel more disengaged. John Edwards may have bored people with his constant references to his father working in a mill, but it's a narrative and a background that most people can relate to, even if they didn't come from modest backgrounds themselves.

    Parent
    When reading the Oregon exit polls, you note that (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by halstoon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:40:19 PM EST
    Obama lost those making less than $30k and those who have no college experience. You claim this is further evidence that he has problems in that group. But, where Obama really lost in Oregon was senior citizens, a group he has consistently lost and who he clearly needs to address more directly.

     It's just a guess, but I would venture a bet that those over 65 are less likely to have any college experience, and thanks to paltry SSI payments, probably have less than $30k in income each year. So, maybe Obama's poor white problem--in Oregon at least--was largely confined to those over age 65. According to the phone polls provided by CNN, senior citizens were 17% of the vote, HS graduates were 17%, and those making $15-30k were 10%, and Hillary won each group with 53 or 54 % of that demo.

    Jim Webb made an excellent point about the racial component to voting in Appalachia. It is a fact that it is just as hard to be white and poor as it is to be black in America. I've spent my whole life in Appalachia, and I can tell you that most of the racism I see is due to poor white people feeling forgotten, or 'out of sight' as Webb puts it. Affirmative action forgot about those who are born just as disadvantaged as the inner city youth, and a lot of us are resentful that the color of our skin is now an impediment to getting help with our lives. Obama should listen to Webb; the man knows of what he speaks. I can tell you that folks in the Appalachian mines would challenge any minority to walk a mile in their shoes; it's no easy walk.

    Obama's up 10 on McCain; Hillary beats Mac by 1 in the same poll, while losing to Obama in the nomination race 59-33. Why no headline on that from the 'fair & objective' BTD?

    Gallup has Obama up 11 on Clinton.

    Finally, Obama leads 2-1 in today's SD endorsements.

    Somehow, none of that news was worthy of noting during the 'fair & objective' portion of the day.

    Have a good evening.

    Did you forget the GI bill? (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:22:24 PM EST
    My sister belonged to the pre-war college  generation, and her college days were very, very different from mine: lots of frats and sorority girls, skirts and high heels, nice slacks, dances and stag lines--college was an upper midddle class experience

    When I entered college (1950) the campus was full of GI's. Some frats and sorority girls--a comparatively small group--sock hops, twin sets, loafers, blue jeans and khakis, and record (45) parties: it just was not the same scene.  I had read the college newspaper when my sister was there; I edited it when I was there.

    Should not assume the older folks did not go to college, even if some of them do live on SS now.

    Parent

    Hit and run. (none / 0) (#163)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:34 PM EST


    Parent
    So.... (none / 0) (#168)
    by lilburro on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:53:32 PM EST
    if the working class is old, it's not the working class?


    Parent
    didn't you hear? (none / 0) (#177)
    by pixelpusher on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:01:01 PM EST
    Older Americans are just worthless trash.  

    Parent
    Entire DNC rules/leadership (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:42 PM EST
    Should be fired.  They should have solved this back in February.  I cannot believe they let it get to this point.  First they caused it, then they could not clean it up.  The notion of Democratic Leadership is absolutely ridiculous.  

    Democratic Leadership (none / 0) (#211)
    by ghost2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:10:43 PM EST
    Another oxymoron is born.

    /sorry /snark

    Parent

    My mother ... (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:45:45 PM EST
    who is an old style lefty, and doesn't like Clinton much, is 100% behind her on the Florida and Michigan.

    This isn't just an issue that benefits Clinton in the nominating process, it's one that can draw voters to her.

    Because, as she said in her speech today, it's about core Democratic Party principles.

    Kudos to Clint Eastwood (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by bridget on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:15 PM EST
    late last night on Fox they said that CE wanted Hillary to remain in the race and that he was impressed by her, by the strength she has shown in this campaign. Something like that.

    I have always been a big CE fan but was mad at him when he made some nasty Clinton remarks during the Monica brouhaha. Esp. considering his own private life ... Well, good for Clint. Fox people said he would vote most likely for McCain. Maybe not ;-)

    Its hard not to admire Hillary's (5.00 / 3) (#185)
    by ding7777 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:07:15 PM EST
    strength when compared to Obama's waffle-whine

    Parent
    Did anyone else get this DNC survey? (4.50 / 2) (#198)
    by AugieDaddy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:13:57 PM EST
    (I have made this same post to a couple of other blogs today, I hope that's OK)

    Has anyone else received the 2008 Presidential Campaign Survey from the DNC? Apparently they have no sense of irony.

    Here is question #9,

    "Thinking about our Party's plan for the 2008 campaigns, which of the following strategies do you think is the key to electing more Democrats in November?"

    1- investing in grassroots efforts....
    2- Devoting more resources to radio and TV.....
    3-Ensuring a fair election process that every vote counts!!!!!!!
    4- all of the above

    Question 12
    "How concerned are you that Republican voter suppression schemes will disenfranchise Democrats and impact the outcome of the presidential race?"
    1- very
    2- somewhat
    3- not at all

    I kid you not. This a an official correspondence from the DNC to a known Democratic Party supporter. Their absolute cluelessness is mind boggling.

    Could not BELIEVE (1.50 / 2) (#7)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:49:00 PM EST
    she compared her position on seating FL and MI "as is", to the stolen election of 2000. What hubris!! Politico points out the following:
    In an intentional bit of symbolism, Clinton's three campaign stops will be in Palm Beach, Broward, and Dade counties - the three jurisdictions where Democrats allege voters were disenfranchised during the 2000 presidential election.
    No - just no. That is wrong in so many ways.

    Here's how to stop it (5.00 / 14) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:38 PM EST
    Seat the freaking delegations. you are arguing against the voters. It is a terrible place to be.

    Parent
    In FL, you have an argument (1.00 / 4) (#43)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:06 PM EST
    In MI, you don't.  And by the way "against the voters" is only a pose by Clinton, at this point.  She doesn't really want them seated, unless they are seated unfairly, from what I can see.

    Parent
    Forget about the arguments (5.00 / 5) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:13:38 PM EST
    You want Obama to stand up and fight against counting the votes when he is already going to be the nominee.

    How stupid can you be?

    Parent

    What's really going on here? (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by pie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:48 PM EST
    Why would Obama and his supporters not want the votes counted when it will, I repeat, will, hurt his chances in November?

    I'm not ready to say I won't vote for him, but his relunctance to step up to the plate on this issue tells me more about him than he wants me to know.

    Parent

    Because (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:51:06 PM EST
    they don't really believe he's going to be the nominee. Neither does Obama. They think that he's unelectable due to demographics and that the party will choose to win over lose the general election. Only conclusion I can come to because if they were sure he would win in Nov and had the nomination wrapped up they would be fighting to count those votes.

    It's interesting that Obama has strong AA support yet he's certainly all for disenfranchising AA's in MI and FL.

    Parent

    I sometimes wonder (none / 0) (#195)
    by Grace on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:13:37 PM EST
    if Obama really wants to be President.  It's a lot of responsibility and he doesn't seem like the type who loves responsibility.  His wife also seems like she might not think it's such a great job.  

    It's also a lot of work and after looking at Obama's resume, I don't think he likes jobs that are a lot of work.  

    Obama seemed like a much nicer guy a year ago.  Now he seems angry and frustrated quite often.  You can see it in the sharpness of his retorts to McCain on National Security and in his answers to reporter's questions.  

    I dunno.  This might not be his dream job.  

    Parent

    In FL, you have an argument (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:24:28 PM EST
    the only thing unfair about Fla  is Obama Dean and Brazile..Obama twice broke his pledge ..why has he not been sanctioned?????????
    Obama campaigned in Set 2007 right after he signed the pledge..no other candidate broke the pledge or rules..only Obama did..and only Obama ran commercials in Fla ( for 2 weeks) prior to the election, in fact he spent more than 8 of the republican candidates..  combined ..in Florida..

    no other candidate did that on the democratic side..and every candidate was on the Florida ballot, and i was a poll watcher and I worked in a predominately African American precinct and they were voting in large large numbers!

    Florida had almost 4X the voters it had in 2004 for the primary.

    So please..the only thing going on unfair is the florida voters are not getting their votes counted and they are no longer part of a democracy!..Because if we were in a democracy..our votes would be counted!

    and those keeping our votes from counting?? Dean, Brazile, and Obama

    oh and by the way..right after the republican Fla Legislature amended the bill they changed the primary date ..last May....Dean was beating the band to force Florida into a caucus..gee i wonder why??????????

    fly

    Parent

    nobody (none / 0) (#179)
    by isaac on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:02:20 PM EST
    told him to take his name off the ballot

    Parent
    Yeah it is SO wrong (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:54:41 PM EST
    to point out the obvious. Why do Obama supporters hate dealing with reality?

    Parent
    What reality?? (1.00 / 3) (#29)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:57:20 PM EST
    a.  That she said back in November that the FL election wouldn't count?
    b.  That she said nothing about the rules, or overriding them, then?
    c.  That Ickes, one of hers, helped draft the rules?
    d.  That she refuses to accept any compromise?  Including the one advanced by nearly ALL democratic officials in MI?

    Tell me - what reality?

    Parent

    Why can't you get this through your brain. This (5.00 / 6) (#45)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:02:33 PM EST
    is not about Sen. Clinton or Sen. Obama, it is about counting our votes.  I have been disenfranchised twice already, once in 2000 and now by DNC with the support of Sen. Obama.  Since you are agreeable with disenfranchising voters, you must have been supporting the Republicans when they so strongly fought to disenfranchise voters in 2000. It was wrong in 2000 and it is still wrong.  I am so glad that Sen. Clinton is now fighting to have my vote counted.  I wish that Sen. Obama would join her.

    Parent
    Don't feed the trolls (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by lisadawn82 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:09 PM EST
    nt

    Parent
    Thanks for the reminder. This is one issue (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:45 PM EST
    that I feel passionate about.  My right to vote is sacred. It is hard to believe that the DNC would disenfranchise FL of all states.  

    Parent
    I don't see you care about counting votes (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:10 PM EST
    As reflecting the popular will.

    MI certainly wasn't an expression of voting for the popular will.  

    And the voters knew that FL wouldn't count.

    You see, in the weeks leading up to our primary, we knew that our votes would not count towards the nomination of our party's Presidential candidate.  We were told this, over and over again, ad nauseam.  We were told by the pundits, we were told by the media, we were told by our own party:  "This is a straw poll.  It has no bearing whatsoever on the nomination process."

    In any case, I am talking about Clinton's refusal to acknowledge her own past, here.  As well as Cliton's refusal of a solution accepted by Michigan's leading democrats.

    Parent

    The voters knew all that did they? (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:50 PM EST
    Did you speak to the 1.7MM who voted about that?

    Parent
    Brilliant (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:58 PM EST
    observation.  Surely, that person DID do all that information sharing /snark

    Parent
    I don't see you care about counting votes (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:30:06 PM EST
    what you posted is nonsense on it's face..we were told to vote..by everyone around the dem party in Fla..emails were sent ..and phone calls and even on our TV media was telling us to vote..we had 4X the primary voters we did in 2004 a very important election to get bush out if you remember..who are you kidding ..i don't know what or who this person was listening to but i heard it over snd over and over again to vote in Fla.

    this must be more of the obama propaganda!

    and it is a fantasy!

    fly..a 2004 elected Dem delegate from the State of Florida...

    oh and by the way..Obama was running ads here in Fla ..for two weeks before the election...the only candidate on the dem side that broke the pledge !

    Parent

    Do you want to be "right" (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:45 PM EST
    or do you want to win in November?  Take the "roolz" route. Be sanctimonious about not giving any advantage to Senator Clinton.  Watch Florida and Michigan go for Senator McCain.  I encourage you to do that because if Senator Obama is the Democratic nominee, you'll be giving my candidate two states. I thank you.  It's getting easier everyday.

    Parent
    The DNC is manipulating their resolution (none / 0) (#169)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:53:43 PM EST
    of the rule-breaking horror because they do not want it to put Obama's nomination in jeopardy.

    One is really compelled to ask why the leaders of the party don't care about the mess they've made. They've got half their voting base so angry with how unfair they've been to them, to their candidate, and to the voters of FL & MI, I can't imagine how they have winning this election at the forefront of their goals.

    This has gone so badly, it can't end in big rewards for Dean, Brazile, Obama, Kerry, Edwards, Byrd, and all the others who have us pinned against the ropes.

    Parent

    so if they'd counted (none / 0) (#192)
    by isaac on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:11:46 PM EST
    all those people would have voted for obama, right?

    nah, floridians wont mind being disenfranchised -- again! -- after all, they'll have michigan to keep them company, as they pull the lever for mccain.  tool

    Parent

    Reality this one... (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:05:49 PM EST
    If Obama supporters have 'won' why don't you seat the delegates and count the vote as is?  If you are an Obama supporter, get over it alreay and start fighting your GE.  BTDs point has been OBAMA HAS WON THE NOMINATION!!! Why do Obama supporters refuse to face the fact they have won the nomination (in BTSs view) and pivot to the GE?  What is the matter with people?  You apparently have won the battle, now go finish your GE war.  The primary is over for Obama supporters, go fight your GE.

    Get over it and move on.

    Parent

    I'm talking specifically about the pose by Clinton (none / 0) (#71)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:52 PM EST
    In regards to Florida 2000, and abolitionists.

    She shouldn't be doing that.

    Parent

    Make it easy for her (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:11:41 PM EST
    Tell Obama to count the votes. Seat the delegates.

    What is so hard about that?

    Parent

    So count Obama's Michigan votes (none / 0) (#89)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:19 PM EST
    then.  Or Edwards, for that matter.

    At any rate, my objection here is listed above, regarding Clinton's cynical pose of champion of voters.

    Parent

    Preaching to the choir dude (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:44 PM EST
    I have said that already. But here is the good news. Michigan went through the delegate selection process and Obama got most of the uncommitted delegates.

    Problem solved!

    Now count the votes and seat the delegates and Obama can stop letting Clinton be the fierce defender of the voters of Florida and Michigan.

    Parent

    Now I'm confused (none / 0) (#107)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:36 PM EST
    About what you are saying, and may be confusing your stance with other commentors here, or with Jeralyn's.

    Parent
    If you really understood (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by pie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:22:53 PM EST
    the issue, you'd understand and agree with BTD's position.

    But you're so insecure about Obama's chances, that you're doing the very thing that will torpedo his run.

    Dumb, that.

    Parent

    Maybe you need to (none / 0) (#126)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:25:32 PM EST
    get more info and learn about the facts on the subject.

    Try reading all my posts on the subject. Will take all night though.  

    Parent

    The CSpan DNC video (none / 0) (#133)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:28:17 PM EST
    I think that would be worth watching one more time, do you have the link?  I cannot find it.  

    Parent
    May 31st right? It will be settled then, I hope . (none / 0) (#123)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:24:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Neither Obama nor Edwards received any (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:13 PM EST
    votes in the Michigan primary - they weren't on the ballot.

    Find me one election anywhere in this country, ever, when uncommitted votes were "awarded" to someone who was not on the ballot.  Do that, and you might be able to make a case for doing it now; if you can't, then shut up about it.  Obama has had opportunity after opportunity to advocate for a re-vote, and at every opportunity he has had wither a reason why it wouldn't work, or he whined that it wasn't fair that people who voted in the Republican primary couldn't vote again.

    Unless and until we offically embrace our transition to banana republic, and establish a precedent for giving people votes that weren't cast for him or her, I think we ought to stick with a basic premise: those who do not stand for election do not get any votes.

    Parent

    The reality (none / 0) (#74)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:51 PM EST
    that you pointed out of the places in FL where the votes DIDN'T count.  

    It h-a-p-p-e-n-e-d.  Hillary is trying to make sure hisory doesn't repeat itself.

    Bottom f***ing line is this:  IF Barack AND HIS supporters have NOTHING to fear, let those states be seated OR Barack should not have blocked a revote or taken his name off the ballot in MI.

    I know that the majority of BHO supporters are young...this is called r*e*s*p*o*n*s*i*b*i*l*i*t*y for your ACTIONS.

    The grown-ups are in charge.

    Parent

    Compromising on principle (none / 0) (#170)
    by Evie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:54:33 PM EST
    The principle of counting every vote is fundamental and cannot be compromised.

    The reality is that if the DNC refuses to seat FL and MI, they will be doing the same thing that the Supreme Court did in Bush v. Gore. The DNC will be choosing to elevate arbitrary rules over democratic principles. And punishing American voters for the mistakes of politicians.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:16 PM EST
    Disenfranchise: n. To deprive of voting rights.  Don't see much difference between not counting votes in 2000 and not counting them in 2008.

    Democrats cannot be on the wrong side of this issue, no matter whose candidate it helps.

    Parent

    Even worse, she actually compares (1.00 / 5) (#15)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:52:57 PM EST
    her "fight" to seat the votes from FL to abolitionists.  Yeah right! An ego-driven attempt to change a losing campaign is the same as those that fought to end slavery.

    Only in Hillaryland!

    Parent

    Compare and contrast: this primary (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    campaign is like the Bataan Death March.

    Parent
    Did he ever grovel for that? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:30 PM EST
    Because the Right's 527s are going to compare/contrast that with McCain's military and POW experience and buh-bye patriotism, buh-bye military vote.

    Hillary's caution does drive me crazy at times.  But all I need to do is to look at Obama and I'm praying "Keep playing it safe, Hillary!".

    Parent

    Simple solution (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:04:18 PM EST
    Count the votes. Seat the delegates.

    Parent
    I would do it today if I could. But as it is (none / 0) (#134)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:28:32 PM EST
    I believe we have to wait until May 31st. I also believe that some talks/negotiations are happening as to exactly what numbers will be used.

    I say seat them as they voted in Florida and give him the uncom. in MI.  Sounds fair to me.

    Parent

    Like in Obamaville (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:41 PM EST
    "Don't tell me words don't mean nuthin'!"

    "GOD DA** AMERICA!"

    "HILLARY AIN'T NEVER BEEN CALLED A N***!"

    I can go on ya know.

    Parent

    Great point (1.00 / 3) (#51)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:04:30 PM EST
    So in her tactics to wrest the nomination from the winning black candidate for the primary, she compares herself to those who risked their lives for  freedom for blacks.

    You are correct - this is in every way worse.

    Parent

    If he has already won (5.00 / 6) (#66)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:20 PM EST
    as you claim, then count the effing votes.

    Parent
    He hasn't won anything (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by lisadawn82 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:04 PM EST
    He only wins the nomination after the votes have been counted at the convention or if all other candidates have dropped out.  

    The thing that Senator Clinton is doing? Well, that's called campaigning.  Oh yeah, and fighting against disenfranchisement.

    Parent

    So you see no connection (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:42 PM EST
    between counting the votes and civil rights and you think you are noble?

    I find you a disgrace, And a dishonest person to boot.

    Parent

    Right back at you (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jcsf on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:16:20 PM EST
    Glad we can agree that the other is a disgrace.

    Parent
    Oh, wow. (none / 0) (#125)
    by pie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:24:34 PM EST
    You lose.

    Parent
    Here's how LA Times blog (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:47:58 PM EST
    views the GE, via RealClearPolitics numbers +.  MI=crucial.

    MICHIGAN

    Verrry interesting! (none / 0) (#9)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:26 PM EST


    Parent
    geek reminder (none / 0) (#50)
    by DFLer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:04:24 PM EST
    I'm reminding myself that if you right click on a link, you can ask to open up in a new tab (or "window" in IE), and continuing reading the TL stuff while the the internets search for the La Times tube.

    Parent
    I'd say LA Times is being a little too (none / 0) (#46)
    by tigercourse on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:02:58 PM EST
    charitable to Obama right now. Going by electoral vote.com, Obama is abot 30 points south of the needed 270. Not insurmountable, but at this point, Kerry was polling alot better against Bush.

    Parent
    Was it mandatory to sign the MI & FL pledge (none / 0) (#79)
    by Saul on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:19 PM EST
    in order to participate in the rest of the 48 states in seeking the nomination?  My question is why did not either one say " No I will not sign the pledge and I will campaign in MI and Fl"   Could either one have said that?  If so then why didn't  they since it looks like it would have legitimatized the primaries for the one who did not sign the pledge.
    The pledge was between the candidates (none / 0) (#184)
    by Joan in VA on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:06:30 PM EST
    and IA, NH, SC and ?(I'm blanking on that other state) not the DNC. The DNC set the penalty so signing that pledge didn't affect that. It was basically a pander to those states. I looked it up today and it's only like 4 sentences and just says no campaigning and you agree those states were supposed to go first. Doesn't say that you agree with any penalty. Pretty unimpressive.

    Parent
    Open question (none / 0) (#93)
    by DFLer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:06 PM EST
    Somewhere on this site, someone recently (past 3 weeks?)gave an excellent description on how the DNC allocated the number of pledged delegates to each state, based on performance in the last several election, electoral college votes, etc.

    Could anyone point me there? I tried the search function without success.

    Thanks.

    Why can't there be a do-over? (none / 0) (#94)
    by flavortext on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:26 PM EST
    That would solve everyone's problems.

    Now why didn;t I think of that (5.00 / 7) (#110)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:20:07 PM EST
    a few nmonths ago? Oh wait, I did. And Clinton did. But Obama said no.

    Parent
    because Hillary would win (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:28:54 PM EST


    Parent
    Democracy is fine (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:58:49 PM EST
    as long as our guy wins!

    Is that really, really what the Obamans want to be arguing?

    Parent

    because Hillary would win (none / 0) (#212)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:35:45 PM EST
    please understand the bill that changed our primary in Florida..was the bill that banned the DRE voting machines and mandated voter verified paper ballots..that law goes into effect July 1 of this year so most of our voting machines have been sent out of state or dismantled..and could not be used at this point for a re-vote in Florida..many of our counties won't have new machines up and running in time for a new vote soon enough ..or too much before the Aug convention.

    what was suggested by Dean and the DNC and team Obama would have only allowed 100,000 people to revote in Fla..that is inexcusable..we had almost 1.8 million vote in Jan..and they want around one hundred thousand to replace those almost 2 million votes???????/

    that is unacceptable!

    and was unacceptable to the FDP..

    Active people in the Dem party statewide turned that down immediately!

    Dean tried manipulating the FDP right after the bill was signed last year into a caucus..that is also unacceptable with so many seniors that we have and so many military we have here in Fla..and so many disabled vets..

    Caucus's are not democratic as they disenfranchise too many citizens ..

    they should be outlawed in my opinion..but that is my opinion..

    fly

    Parent

    I thought Obama already won, too. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Marco21 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:55 PM EST
    His supporters keep calling it over, so what's the big deal? He'll get delegates from MI and FLA anyway, someway.

    Hillary was for the exclusionary rules. Guess what? She was wrong. Obama is wrong to expect to win the GE without their inclusion.

    Can someone please post a link to Hillary's (none / 0) (#111)
    by bridget on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:20:29 PM EST
    Fl and Mi speech for me
    I wasn't able to get in from the other thread

    Here ya go (none / 0) (#138)
    by xspowr on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:31:27 PM EST
    Hillary's Remarks on Counting Every Vote

    Parent
    I should have known ... lol - thanks so much (none / 0) (#145)
    by bridget on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Heard about an org new to me today (none / 0) (#130)
    by suisser on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:28 PM EST
    "Hilary Supporters Matter too"  or something very much like that

    I'm loving the wellspring of rejection the MSM is getting.  It's a lovely start ;-)

    An easy solution (none / 0) (#143)
    by Mavs4527 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:36:38 PM EST
    Cut the Florida and Michigan delegations in half and seat them that way. They have a role in the convention, but are punished for breaking party rules. Couldn't you guys simply accept a compromise like that and put an end to this fight and move on to John McCain with Obama as our nominee?

    Even easier (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Raven15 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:07:16 PM EST
    Let's just base this all on the most important measure in a Democracy--PEOPLE's VOTES--put an end to this fight and move on to John McCain with Clinton as our nominee.

    Parent
    Can't you just count (none / 0) (#180)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:03:13 PM EST
    the votes?  Splitting them in half is not what the voters did.  You know, some of us get preached at here because we say we are going to give McCain one vote.  You guys who refuse to  count the votes in FL and MI and give the delegates full privileges are giving McCain the electoral votes from two states.  Who's hurting the Democratic Party more?  There's a reason why so many of us are switching to independent.  The idiocy of the Obama wing of the DNC is just too much for us.

    Parent
    Funny (none / 0) (#182)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:03:42 PM EST
    you ask that as though you believe we commenters have any control at all over what the DNC is doing.

    We've all written to them, called them, and people are heading to DC for the rules committee meeting at the end of the month.

    But, I'm up for it. We posters from TalkLeft will make the decision :) Don't know why we didn't think of this a month ago.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#194)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:12:24 PM EST
    Next question?

    Parent
    the problem (none / 0) (#164)
    by pixelpusher on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
    Yes, the problem is that poor whites get stepped on and ignored by rich and middle-class whites and then they take it out on poor blacks (and other poor minorities), who ought to be their natural allies.

    Unfortunately, somehow Obama has become the candidate of rich whites who have no love or consideration for poor whites.  Because in their eyes, poor whites are AUTOMATICALLY racist in their DNA.

    Racist attitudes are a symptom of economic abuse by the powerful (read: rich white folks) ... such attitudes may be distasteful, but they are not bred in anyone's DNA.

    Such a waste of time (none / 0) (#172)
    by Mavs4527 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:55:21 PM EST
    Honestly, let's imagine if Hillary Clinton was about 60 delegates from securing the Democratic nomination, but it was Obama who had "won" both Florida and Michigan under these exact same circumstances. Anyone believe Hillary would have given the same speech she gave today given that scenario?

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:08:26 PM EST
    I believe OBAMA would have given that speech.

    And I would have been here praising it and you would have been right there with me.

    Hypocrite.

    Parent

    I absolutely do, and I also (none / 0) (#174)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:58:19 PM EST
    believe she would know the race was not yet decided and she would not be calling for Obama to give up.


    Parent
    You don't think it has anything to do (none / 0) (#196)
    by Mavs4527 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:13:40 PM EST
    with the fact that it would net her additional delegates in these states despite the fact both her and Obama agreed not to campaign in both states because they violated party rules? Personally, if she cared about the issue rather than herself, she would have agreed to a compromise of cutting each state's delegations in half a long time ago. She'd still net some delegates, but more importantly, it would seat the delegations from both states, but still be a means of enforcing the party's rules.

    Don't you think both states need to be punished in some manner for violating the rules, but still get some of the delegates seated? If not, what's to prevent other states from front loading the calender, thereby making the presidential primary process around three months or less? Think any non-establishment, populist candidate would have a chance in that sort of primary calender?

    I'm sorry for asking so many questions. I'm just trying to figure out whether or not most of the people making these arguments for Hillary over the Michigan/Florida issue have honestly thought through the larger implications involved here and not just how it helps Hillary's campaign out.

    Parent

    You think they are trying to compete (none / 0) (#173)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:57:12 PM EST
    for the Republicans who aren't part of the moral majority?

    It's sure possible.


    Parent

    No place else for this, but-- (none / 0) (#183)
    by Molly Pitcher on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:05:22 PM EST
    did anyone else get this from the Houston Chronicle?  I am appalled.

    Hillary Threatens DNC of Dire Consequences
    Posted 5/21/2008 6:01 PM CDT

    When I wrote this morning about Hillary Clinton's master plan to do everything she could to undermine the candidacy of Barack Obama, I had no idea how soon that might come to fruition. As it turns out it took less than 24 hours.

    In a speech in Boca Raton, as reported by Politico today, she made some ridiculous statements comparing her attempt to win the Democratic nomination to the struggle of the abolitionists and the suffragettes. She also made a not-so-thinly-veiled threat about the possible political consequences to the Democrats of not seating the Florida and Michigan delegations....

    Because of those who have come before, Sen. Obama and I have and so many of you have this precious right today. Because of all that has been done, we are in this historic presidential election. And I believe that both Sen. Obama and myself have an obligation as potential Democratic nominees - in fact we all have an obligation as Democrats - to carry on this legacy and ensure that in our nominating process, every voice is heard and every single vote is counted."

    Then came the kicker. Her warning of the price that might be paid if the DNC does not seat the Florida and Michigan delegations according to her wishes:

    "If we fail to do so, I worry that we will pay not only a moral cost, but a political cost as well," she said. "We know the road to a Democratic White House runs right through Florida and Michigan. If we care about winning those states in November, we need to count your votes now. If Democrats send a message that we don't fully value your votes, we know Sen. McCain and the Republicans will be more than happy to have them. The Republicans will make a simple and compelling argument: why should Florida and Michigan voters trust the Democratic Party to look out for you when they won't even listen to you."

    Clinton for the Voters (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:07:24 PM EST
    the Media against the voters.

    Parent
    HaHa (none / 0) (#210)
    by RalphB on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:01:54 PM EST
    Sometimes the media can still surprise me with their idiocy.  Can you imagine this clown thinks that telling the truth about what will happen if the votes aren't counted is a threat to the DNC?  Unbearably stupid.


    Parent
    BTD Do you agree with kos about PR? (none / 0) (#189)
    by Manuel on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:08:52 PM EST
    I was too late to put this in the earlier thread.

    Puerto Ricans are American Citizens and serve in the armed forces.  So they can die for the country but not help pick the Democratic nominee?  Something tells me that would not be his opinion if Obama was a heavy favorite in PR.

    Video: Guess who gets the Parrot vote? (none / 0) (#191)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:10:49 PM EST
    Smokey Says, Yes We Can!

    Here's Axelrod on FL/MI: (none / 0) (#201)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:17:52 PM EST
     

    Israel Ignores Bush's Appeasement Speech
    United Mine Workers Endorse Barack Obama
    WATCH: Obama Rips Into McCain On Lobbyists
    Webb Speaks Out On Race, Addresses Grievances Of White America
    Meet The DNC Rules Committee Members Who Will Decide Michigan And Florida
    McCain Adviser Lobbied Senate Staff While On Presidential Campaign
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    Please wait, your request is processed... Hillary Clinton Compares Florida, Michigan Fight To Civil Rights Movement
          Huffington Post via Politico   |   May 21, 2008 05:37 PM

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    Read More: 2008 Campaign, Civil Rights Movement, David Axelrod, Democratic Convention, Democratic Primary Race, Florida, Florida Michigan Revote, Hillary Clinton, Michigan, Politics News Show your support.
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    Hillary Clinton needs Michigan and Florida to be seated at the convention in order to keep her nomination hopes alive. In a speech today she compared the fight to have those two states seated with other major struggles in American history, specifically the Civil Rights movement:

    Hillary Clinton compared her effort to seat Florida and Michigan delegates to epic American struggles, including those to free the slaves and win the right to vote for blacks and women...

    ..."This work to extend the franchise to all of our citizens is a core mission of the modern Democratic party," she said. "From signing the Voting Rights Act and fighting racial discrimination at the ballot box to lowering the voting age so those old enough to fight and die in war would have the right to choose their commander in chief, to fighting for multi-lingual ballots so you can make your voice heard no matter what language you speak."

    In an interview with NPR today, Obama's chief strategist David Axelrod seemed open to a deal on Michigan and Florida:

    "We are open to comprise [sic]. We are willing to go more than half way. We're willing to work to make sure that we can achieve a compromise. And I guess the question is: is Senator Clinton's campaign willing to do the same?"

    Axelrod continues: "Well, obviously, any compromise is going to involve some give, and that means if there's something on the table, we're willing to consider it. That may include us yielding more delegates than perhaps we would have, simply on the basis of the rules."
    Oops. Axelrod is at the end. (none / 0) (#202)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:18:31 PM EST


    Parent
    Anyone here reading (none / 0) (#207)
    by Valhalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:25:46 PM EST
    The Dumbest Generation?  Started it recently and keep thinking it goes a ways to explaining a lot of the generational divide in the campaigns.  Also perhaps why the unity pony folks are weak at putting forth original arguments rather than repeating the official message.

    Heard on the radio this evening.. (none / 0) (#213)
    by BostonIndependent on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:02:42 PM EST
    Senior Dem. insider says
    • we knew we'd lose with Hillary
    • now we know we'll possibly lose with Barrack
    • we think the longer primary is good
    • since the focus, amongst us, has really been about  increasing voter participation and turnout for the congressional elections in November.
    • the GE? What GE?
    Sounded defeatist and Machiavellian at the same time, and while I found it interesting didn't know what to make of it. What say you?

    Wednesday Evening Open Thread | 211 comments (211 topical)