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Wednesday Evening Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:40:17 PM EST
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Talk about Florida and Michigan. It is required of everyone. Not really, this is an Open Thread.

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< Hillary's Speech on Florida and Michigan | Hillary Has Second Best Fundraising Month, $22 Million >

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    Wednesday Evening Open Thread | 212 comments (212 topical)
    Awwwk. No can do. (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:44:33 PM EST


    Not much left to say (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:56:56 PM EST
    See ya in Denver oculus ;)

    [ Parent ]
    Let's talk about "concepts" (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:56 PM EST
    My six year old has discovered that plants grow from seeds.  (They don't do tissue culture in kindergarten.)  He is now totally taken with the idea and now wants to plant seeds every where.  I'm convincing him that the lawn is not a good place to plant seeds.

    I seem to remember being just a little bit older when I started my own little gardens.  

    Mom is doing battle with the urban deer already!  They ate her tulips but not her neighbors'.  We blame her organic gardening for making her plants so tasty. :P

    [ Parent ]

    I love six year olds! (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:15 PM EST
    I made my own topsy turvy planters this past weekend and put tomatoes and zucchini in them.  I wonder if the hanging upside down planting thing is really going to work and be superior.

    [ Parent ]
    Re: topsy-turvy planters (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:16:48 PM EST
    Tried one last year without much success - but that could have been the tomato plants - who knows?

    Have grape tomatoes in it this year, but have put the "big" tomato plants (and herbs) in Earth Boxes.  If you haven't tried Earth Boxes, check out their website: www.earthbox.com

    Am determined to have real tomatoes to eat in abundance (tomato sandwiches, caprese salad, fresh tomato sauce, maybe even dry some)!

    [ Parent ]

    I love earth boxes and for me they are a must have (none / 0) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:59 PM EST
    because our property is loaded with black walnut trees and they have made the soil not too plant friendly for most plants.  Add to it that most pests don't find earth boxes that attractive and I find I have a earth box garden.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you know anything about growing fruit trees? (none / 0) (#139)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:31:38 PM EST
    I recently planted some seeds from some very delicious honey tangerine trees and they are now sprouting.  The instructions on the pods said to keep them in the pods until they reach the top of the container.  But now they are just about there and not sure what to do with them? Do they go to small pots, then to the ground?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not an expert, (none / 0) (#149)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:39:44 PM EST
    but I think you could just put them in the ground, if you don't have many plant-curious pets about. The young plants just (in my experience) need to be more protected than a more mature plant.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you so much. (none / 0) (#160)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:46:59 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Growing down here is a very new experience for me (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:47:06 PM EST
    I killed most everything the first year.  I have started a few trees in pots, so I would say that is a good idea this year and keep them outdoors as weather permits.  Move them indoors if frost is suspected or extreme weather. Next year/spring I would plant them inground as trees down here grow three times as fast as I'm used to living in the West.  Trees that I kept potted here for longer than a year did not fair as well as the ones I only kept potted for a year.  mmmmmmmmmmmmm honey tangerine......I have had good luck so far with a dwarf keylime.  It sometimes frosts here so I had to plant it in an area of our property that gets extreme sun and it has done really well in spite of a little cold.

    [ Parent ]
    I have a key lime tree that I was given as a (none / 0) (#178)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:01:29 PM EST
    seedling.  I kept it in a pot for a while (it was an illegal key lime tree, we had citrus cancre and the state cut alot of trees down in infected areas.  I would hide the tree in the garage whenever an inspector was in the neighborhood. It never did get cancre) After I planted it in the ground, it stopped bearing fruit. I will these newbies in a pot this year, and move them next year to the ground. Thank you too for the advice.

    [ Parent ]
    Problem when planting from seed is (none / 0) (#190)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:09:41 PM EST
    that most fruits we get in this country are produced from grafted trees and seeds usually do not bear true to form.  You may end up with a non-bearing tree or with a fruit that is not what you expected.

    [ Parent ]
    You may have broken my heart. Those honey (none / 0) (#193)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:12:23 PM EST
    tangerines were so good.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry :-( just that it may happen (none / 0) (#204)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:20:50 PM EST
    who knows you might get lucky.  BTW citrus seedlings may take 5-8 yrs to bear fruit.

    [ Parent ]
    Let us know (none / 0) (#144)
    by suisser on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:36:57 PM EST
    if that works - I'm curious.  

    [ Parent ]
    I will (none / 0) (#165)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:48:43 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Fabian (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:10 PM EST
    Okay, so I swore I wouldn't post here anymore so as to quit annoying the old timers, but I just had to tell you this.

    The hummingbirds came back full force this spring and were busy causing as much chaos as they did last year,

    HOWEVER ... they have met their match: orchard orioles who've claimed the feeders and gotten into all kinds of snits with the hummers.

    :D

    [ Parent ]

    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:13:00 PM EST
    Those hummers are feisty little critters.  There's something incredibly endearing about something so tiny and so belligerent.  I watched one once vigorously defend a seed feeder he couldn't even use himself from all comers for a good hour.  No creature on earth can catch them, so they have nothing to lose.

    (Envy you those orchard orioles!)


    [ Parent ]

    I only get two little dudes at my feeder here (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:03 PM EST
    There's so much in lower AL for the hummers to sip I only get to see the lazy ones.  I finally took my seed feeder down.  It hung there for over a year and I still hadn't had to refill it yet because once again only lazy seed eaters showed up to snack for my pleasure.

    [ Parent ]
    They're terrible! (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:01 PM EST
    You couldn't even have a conversation in my front yard last year because there were hummers zooming everywhere attacking each other.

    :D

    They sound like squabbling mice.

    [ Parent ]

    I love them (none / 0) (#167)
    by suki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:52:51 PM EST
    I've always thought they sounded like tiny dolphins. I love it when they fly up to you and do the 'scan'. I got to see one take a bath sitting on the cable wire while it was misting a couple of days ago. Endless entertainment.

    [ Parent ]
    My new furnace (none / 0) (#200)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:17:20 PM EST
    vents out the side of my house.  There's a huge tree right near it, and the released steam travels up the tree.  The winter birds discovered that they could perch in the tree and get warmed.  There were literally hundreds of them there on really cold days.  My neighbors called it our "tweety spa".

    [ Parent ]
    Oooh...ooh (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:50 PM EST
    When I was a kid, back in the old country, we used to take, lentils, beans, etc.  and germinate them.  Here is a web page that sort shows the process, it was great.  We would pick out our seeds and set them in the December 21, when the days start getting longer.  The story was that the day, grew every day by the size of a seed.  It's fast and very very immediate gratification kind of thing and you can do indoors.  

    [ Parent ]
    reminds me of when i was a kid (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:12 PM EST
    and you could get those gerariums in the Super Sugar Crisps cereal boxes.  I also remember getting the uncooked pinto beans my Mom had and planting them.  It was SO cool to watch them sprout and grow.

    Ah, the joys of childhood.

    [ Parent ]

    My way of keeping critters away from my garden (none / 0) (#171)
    by Florida Resident on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:54:46 PM EST
    is to plant native fruits and plants around the fences and borders.  Birds and animals usually will go for the tart fruits and native plants and usually keep away from my Berries Peaches, vegetables etc.  I can't remember right off the bat but in Organic Gardening they usually have good tips on how to keep deers away and things like that.

    [ Parent ]
    Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by ajain on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:02 PM EST
    today, said that Clinton was blaming the state of her candidacy on sexism.

    That is just absurd. She called the press out on the sexism in the press. Clearly she was talking specifically about Chris Matthews, Tim Russert and the rest of the NBC/MSNBC gang and they are trying to hit back at her in the lowest possible ways. I mean can anyone be more stupid and outrageous than ridiculous crowdd at MSNBC?

    Rachel Maddow said that?! (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:46:43 PM EST
    She should lose her job. Oh my fffing gawd, that is absolutely fffing ridiculous.

    Yet another knife in HRC's back from a "liberal" woman who should know better.

    [ Parent ]

    I''m really pleased Clinton (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:17 PM EST
    emphasized this in her speech last night and I hope she keeps the pressure on, no matter what "they" say.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too! (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    She was interviewed (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by samanthasmom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:27 PM EST
    with Geraldine Ferraro by Meredith Vieria.  Rachel pretty much said that it's a generational thing.  Us old biddies don't get that the things that Obama does that we think are sexist aren't.  Young folks know that it's just joking around and doing "hip-hop" things. Gerry wasn't buying it.  Meredith seemed to, though.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (5.00 / 5) (#151)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:40:43 PM EST
    we just need to get a sense of humor and stop being so sensitive.  Where have I heard that argument before?  Oh yes -- everywhere during my entire lifetime.

    [ Parent ]
    That's funny (none / 0) (#197)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:13:48 PM EST
    The brushing of the shoulders may be generational. The rest of his behavior is right in there with the behavior/demeaning words from many of his supporters and endorsers who are well past 60 years old, so that negates the generational theme.

    Obama reminds me very much of my abusive ex-husband. It's not generational.
     

    [ Parent ]

    Obama News Network (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:51:49 PM EST
    No one takes them seriously. Honestly, no one thinks of NBC as a news organization anymore. NOt even Obama supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    Hahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:57 PM EST
    I'm sure that the folks at the Daily Obama would disagree. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    Well that;s my point (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    you see.

    Like Josh Marshall, MSNBC is no longer trusted as a news organization. They simply are not. Either of them.

    [ Parent ]

    I guess (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:56:09 PM EST
    it hurt when they finally went after PR, right? It's an upside down world when Fox is fairer to dems than other channels. I know they have an ulterior motive here though--if Obama's the nominee they are working on getting the clinton dems.

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:13:27 PM EST
    They do a fine job of parroting every word of criticism those pundits spew.

    I saw some really awful people on FOX this afternoon (changed the channel before I got their names) and they were repeating the $30M+ debt in the Clinton campaign. They won't correct themselves like the newspaper reporters do.


    [ Parent ]

    The more die-hard Obama supporters... (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Alec82 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:18:15 PM EST
    ...are probably skeptical about any news network.  His coalition has the strongest reasons to doubt media objectivity.  

     To me, Matthews is a firm example of what I do not want political news coverage to become: a contact sport where the loudest voice dictates the framing of an issue.  Which, I suppose, is why I am a fan of Washington Week, when I want a similar format.

     All of these media outlets are disturbing, and where I often see bias the most significant trend is sensationalism.  

     FOX, however, is in a class all its own.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, they have to blame it on something (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:27 PM EST
    The media isn't going to admit they did what they did.

    Not sure why any Hillary supporters are even watching those programs. They need the viewers to support their sick habit. Only way to send them a strong message is to cut down their viewership so they can't get more than $50. a minute for an ad.

    Rachel, Tim, Keith, Dan, Dave, etc. will all be gone if MSNBC can't afford to pay them.


    [ Parent ]

    I don't usually watch TV but can't (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:29 PM EST
    resist when election results are in the offing.  Paul Begala must be good, because I absolutely agreed w/him last night.  

    [ Parent ]
    This (5.00 / 5) (#80)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:19 PM EST
    is essentially the same reaction as after the first debate when her campaign pointed out the 'piling on'. She was told to stop playing the gender card. When she pointed out how inappropriate Shuster's remarks about Chelsea were, she was lambasted for trying to 'get the guy fired'.

    This is the reaction women usually get when they point out that the playing field isn't level.  They are 'blaming' others for their own shortcomings, failures, etc.  It's shocking to hear it in the media but last night I heard a conversation on CNN where Alex Castellanos said that Hillary gets called the 'b' word because she actually is one.  My guess is he'll keep his job.

    It will be interesting to see the effect of this campaign on feminist goals and initiatives.

    [ Parent ]

    Even Media Matters doesn't (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:37 PM EST
    address it. They went after Chris Matthews early on, but they've not done anything about any other TV coverage, or print coverage that is biased against Hillary.

    [ Parent ]
    And the ultimate irony.... (5.00 / 5) (#141)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:35:29 PM EST
    ...is how she is criticized for not making more of her historic candidacy - asked in all innocent bewilderment. "Why doesn't she give a speech on gender and history and her groundbreaking path, as Obama did on race?" It's such a joke - the minute gender issues and/or sexist media coverage is brought up, she's 'playing the victim' or 'playing the sexist card'.

    Like a lot of women, she's learned to shut up about it or else.

    [ Parent ]

    It's still THEM making gender the issue (none / 0) (#203)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:20:26 PM EST
    Hillary is not running as a woman. She's running because she honestly believes (and I support her in this) she is the right person to bring the country back toward it's better days. The mess it's in right now might take more than 8 years to fix.

    I just saw Karl Rove on FOX admitting the Republican brand is in trouble. Wonder who he thinks caused that? GWB and Cheney didn't win 2 elections alone. HAH!

    [ Parent ]

    Maddow got into the treehouse and barred the door (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Ellie on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:36:23 PM EST
    She wouldn't be the first or the last to get her seat at the table by offering to watch the door.

    Too bad Tweety & Obamann's is so lame no one's trying to get in. Maybe that's why it feels like she's still got her integrity.

    [ Parent ]

    That was an interesting (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:11 PM EST
    FL and MI thread.

    The Obamans are out in droves. They are on the losing side of this argument and they know it.

    Democrats cannot be FOR not counting votes. That's just ludicrous.

    If counting votes is "bad" for Obama's candidacy, then perhaps we should realize that he is not the best person to be the nominee.

    See #7 (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM EST
    It got to where I had to actually laugh at one other poster.  First time ever posting and we get the full on drama....
    downfall of our party, running against President McCain her plan (2012), anyone with any intelligence and impartial point of view can see, half of the party staying home in November, who played by the rules, taken away by party insiders (like they aren't rigging this for Obama), Hillary's coup attempt,if Hillary takes it to the convention...an extremely weakened nominee without much of a campaign war chest (apparently it's Clinton's fault Obama hasn't gotten on to raising GE funds?) try to bring whatever is left of the Democratic Party back together again.

    Hillary has lost. It's over. If she cares about the good of the party at all, (waaahhhh) after June 3rd, she should suspend her campaign and help unite the party behind it's nominee, Senator Barack Obama.

    Red/Orange/Green/Yellow Codes all in one.  You just can't make this stuff up. IACF, IACF!!!

    [ Parent ]

    Great Post: In a nutshell! (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:11:44 PM EST
    I think you have all the colors down pat.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama is in Florida today, too (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:52 PM EST
    His speech was about how awful McCain is, and he didn't bring up the primary. He was there just to ask for their votes in November.

    The negative campaigning he is doing against McCain is politics as usual, and the Republican pundits took him apart this morning on FOX News.

    The article attached to the previous MI & FL thread was great, and I think it's great he's already sparring with McCain because it will show the SD's he can't handle it and we'll still have time to fix it at convention.


    [ Parent ]

    I'm tired of Obama (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Grace on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:51 PM EST
    yelling out "I love you too."  It seemed like he threw in extra ones in Florida while he was stalking the stage.  

    I've only listened to a few of his speeches but it seems like, everytime he finds a line that works, he works it to death.  He uses it until you are sick of hearing it.    

    At least McCain and Hillary come out with new material pretty often.  Obama is like a record with a scratch.  

    [ Parent ]

    God (5.00 / 8) (#4)
    by Robert Oak on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:45:48 PM EST
    More lovely Alexrod machine, now they are claiming that Hillary will destroy the Democratic party and Obama's grand run by demanding the MI/FL votes be counted.

    These people are pathetic frankly.  It's the DNC and frankly the Obama maniacs who will lose an election where one could run a potted plant against a Republican and win...if they had just acted with the least bit of decency and letting individuals plain decide their votes...oh but no.

    The Economic Populist

    Counting the votes will destroy the (5.00 / 12) (#62)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:07:36 PM EST
    Democratic Party?

    If the party will truly crumble under the weight of vote counting, so be it. A party that requires voter disenfranchisement to sustain itself is a party I cannot support, economic interests be damned.

    [ Parent ]

    CNN (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:50:54 PM EST
    John King and some other faces I don't recognize were talking about how the Obamas would not have brought race into this if Bill hadn't in SC.  What?  Where were these reporters last summer with all of Michelle's comments about black people getting shot at gas stations?  Or even more recently with JJJr's stupid remarks?  

    Okay, I'm back to boycotting.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:08 PM EST
    That is not an issue now. Florida and Michigan and the voters are.

    Who will be for the voters of Florida and Michigan?

    [ Parent ]

    You would think everyone would be for them (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:52 PM EST
    but some people seem confused or in denial or something.  I was talking to an Obama supporter today and he kept talking about the rules and how Hillary's changed her position.  That's such a bizarre thing to say.  Votes are floating around out there not being counted, and people still want to talk about how calculating Hillary is.

    I really do not understand it.

    [ Parent ]

    Kayla (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by cpa1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:43:22 PM EST
    Did you watch "the worst political team on television" water down, cut apart and minimize what Bill Clinton said about the Obama race injecting?

    I think the Clintons need to go after Obama for what he did so that this never happens again.  Really, they have plenty to say at the convention about why she is the logical nominee but exposing in real terms what Obama did could give her the nomination.  

    I was not a Hillary supporter at first.  Then I became one because I hated Obama.  My opposition to her, besides voting to authorize the war and not admitting it was a mistake, was that I had in my head that the Clintons would do or say anything.  She has become one class act.  There are things she's done I don't like but what politician hasn't.  

    To appease BTD, she is damn right about Michigan and Florida and she needs to shame the Democrats into counting everyone of those votes and she needs to call for the removal of Howard Dean for overwhelmingly overstepping his authority to help the candidate he likes.  We know he had a vendetta against the Clintons because they didn't want him to be the DNC chair.

    What it all boils down to is that Obama is not the logical candidate and once the Republicans expose his lies and his lack of experience and show what an evil team he put together, many Democrats will run to McCain.  

    I always said if Obama would attract the kind of foaming at the mouth rabid supporters that he attracted, who think nothing about injecting hate and division wherever they could, he is not someone I or many Democrats want in the White House.  McCain will not be able to stop the expiration of the Bush tax cuts with a Democratic congress and I think he will surprise us with how not conservative he can be.  Once he has the presidency, he can tell them all the F off.  I think McCain's unknowns are a lot less problematic to many Democrats than Obama's.

    If Obama can be stupid enough to exclude Florida and Michigan because he and Michelle want this now, and don't want to take this to the convention because that is what they are avoiding by disenfranchising over 2 million people, he is not fit for the presidency.  Yes I'd suck it up and vote for him over Bush or Cheney but not over McCain and I think that is what we will see in Florida, Michigan, Ohio, West Va, Kentucky, Pennsylvania and New Jersey.  I'd bet Obama would lose NJ.

    [ Parent ]

    BTD (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:52:07 PM EST
    The Obama campaign stated in the NYT their general election strategy

    1. Register more AA's to vote to offset the loss of the white vote.
    2. Have another speech about Rev. Wright.
    3. Talk more about patriotism.

    No one is clueless. You are never going to get enough AA's to offset his massive hemorraghing of the white vote.

    No 2. is stupid. Another speech won't work. The first one didn't. Obviously he's been severly damaged by Wright. He can't undo that damage with a speech. There's nothing that can undo the damage.

    No 3. The patriotism problem is caused largely by who he is: strange name, living in a foreign country, attending TUCC for 20 years etc. Wearing a flag pin is really trying to put a bandage on a gaping sore and since he made all those statements about not wearing them he now sounds like a waffling panderer to boot.

    If he's nominated I'm glad I have no dog in those fights.

    Patriotism? Hmmmmm (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:56 PM EST
    I see a General Clark being floated as VP soon then.

    [ Parent ]
    Thomas Jefferson (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:12 PM EST
    Abe Lincoln or Geo Washington as running maates couldn't help Barack with his patriotism once the GOP 527s are done with him

    [ Parent ]
    yeah (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:06 PM EST
    but he can't solve Obama's problems unless he declines the nomination and takes vp. with Clark on top. That's the only way that problem would be solved. Bentsen didn't help Dukakis much did he?

    [ Parent ]
    Gen. Clark will probably tell him (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by felizarte on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:09 PM EST
    "ask me again after you get nominated."

    [ Parent ]
    For Hillary! :-) (none / 0) (#78)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:15 PM EST
    Talk about a landslide for the Democrats in November...

    [ Parent ]
    I'd be surprised (none / 0) (#114)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:25 PM EST
    How long did Clark last in the primaries when he tried to run for president? I think a military VP attaches the administrations plan to remain actively in conflict in the Middle East.

    [ Parent ]
    Obviously (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:23:53 PM EST
    You know not a damn thing about General Clark.

    Next question.

    [ Parent ]

    Now THAT's someone I could vote for (none / 0) (#147)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:52 PM EST
    I've always loved Wes Clark.

    [ Parent ]
    I heard (5.00 / 10) (#24)
    by kayla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:38 PM EST
    they were also going to talk more and more about Obama's wife, grandmother, and mother to get the woman vote.

    I can't speak for all Hillary supporters or Obama skeptics, but I really do not care about his story or his family.  It's one of the things about him I don't like.  He talks too much about himself.

    Ugh, and no more big speeches!  Blah.  This guy is so unbelievably boring.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes. Michelle Obama (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:50 PM EST
    THAAAT'S a topic changer.

    [ Parent ]
    Not to mention (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by janarchy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:59:14 PM EST
    the family story changes depending on where he is and who he is telling it to. But you're right, it's all about "Me, Me, Me" (him, him, him). Maybe if he talked about real issues and pay attention to the voters rathen than stroking his own ego.

    [ Parent ]
    Won't work (5.00 / 10) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:03:05 PM EST
    He is running the most clueless campaign since Dukakis. Of course, Brazille ran that campaign so maybe she's giving him advice.

    Grandmother he threw under the bus? LOL.

    The problem is his arrogant condescending attitude toward women. Talking about women is probably going to make it come out even more.

    [ Parent ]

    Grandma (5.00 / 4) (#156)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:02 PM EST
    and I can compare tread marks.

    [ Parent ]
    Not one of the three (none / 0) (#119)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:22:24 PM EST
    are people who I would aspire to be like.

    Bad plan.


    [ Parent ]

    Stick w/the Obama daughters. (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:53 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#176)
    by chrisvee on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:00:07 PM EST
    They are indeed adorable.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama: praise for Clinton for his daughters' sake! (none / 0) (#199)
    by noholib on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:15:18 PM EST
    Did you catch this in the online NY Times this afternoon, in the Jeff Zeleny article on Obama in Florida?

    " ... he praised Mrs. Clinton's historic contribution to the campaign - reprising a line from his Tuesday speech in Iowa about how she has broken barriers to make America a better place for his daughters ..."

    Is that not the most smarmy thing to do ?

    Now he praises her in a patronizing elegaic tone, as if to thank her for her fight to bring down gender barriers, when he has tacitly condoned sexism and misogyny, even contributed to it not a little himself, and certainly benefitted enormously from it?

    Note his narcissicism (often the twin of charisma) -- it's his daughters that Clinton has benefited.

    [ Parent ]

    With regards to #1 (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:05 PM EST
    Here's another piece for his GE strategy.. high schools, colleges, churches and scouring consumer marketing data (IPOD!).  His goal in FL is to prove he has a plan to get the superdeez.  Make up deficits by getting new voters and microtargeting.

    [ Parent ]
    That's sure to win back (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:23:29 PM EST
    the groups he's lost.

    NOT

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds (4.50 / 2) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:41:06 PM EST
    mighty desperate to me and surely a losing strategy to boot. There are only so many voters that are going to vote for him due to his demographic problems. If he finds every one of them it probably wouldn't be enough. And then there's the problem of actually getting them to show up at the polls. These types of voters aren't really that realiable either.

    If he was really concerned about FL he could fight to have their delegation seated.

    [ Parent ]

    How will they set up a Wright speech? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by ineedalife on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:27 PM EST
    He can't give another Wright speech unless there is an event to precipitate it. The tapes are already out there so a 527 commercial mentioning Wright is not enough. If Wright comes out and says something inflammatory to take center-stage it will have to be staged. Fool me once, etc. etc.

    [ Parent ]
    If he's busy writing another off-topic speech (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:25:38 PM EST
    with Wright and race as the central theme, they won't be prepared for whatever the Republicans really have in store for him. They weren't born yesterday.

    Axelrod does a really great Rove impersonation, but he's just an imitation, a cheap one, at that.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know (5.00 / 2) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:38:37 PM EST
    It sounds completely stupid to me. Is this his answer to every problem, a speech? A speech is where you get to ask the questions and answer them yourself.

    If he is so concerned about Wright he should have a press conference and answer questions like "why did you stay there for 20 years?" etc.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL! (none / 0) (#181)
    by ghost2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:03:15 PM EST
    A speech is where you get to ask the questions and answer them yourself.


    [ Parent ]
    a real leader (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Kensdad on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:53:10 PM EST
    if obama were a real leader, he would have told the DNC that a 48-state process was undemocratic...  and he would have done it a long time ago...  he should have been saying what hillary said today that fundamental democratic principles (of counting all the votes) trump DNC rules.

    apparently, obama is "doing anything to win"...  something like getting 4 opponents disqualified by hiring a Harvard ballot expert to challenge signatures on their petitions...

    Yup. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:58:59 PM EST
    If only he would stand for SOMETHING I believe in - and prove it by his actions - then I might be able to think about voting for him if he's the nominee.

    So far, he has done absolutely everything wrong with regards to HRC's voters. He has insulted and dismissed us and refused to do anything to make us feel more comfortable with his candidacy.

    I don't know what he could do to make up for it, but agreeing to count the votes of MI and FL would be a start.

    [ Parent ]

    If he were a real leader, he would have (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:28 PM EST
    honored his own promise to the people of Illinois and he wouldn't be running this year. He knew he wouldn't have enough experience, and he doesn't. Real leaders don't go at top speed into unknown territory.

    Obama has never done anything well. So, handing him the democrats only opportunity to govern the Whitehouse for the next four years is beyond my ability to comprehend. The guy needs to learn discipline, so let's see if he can develop into a strong leader by giving him the presidency.

    [ Parent ]

    An old Hamilton Jordan interview (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:05:42 PM EST
    tape was played on NPR yesterday.  He sd. Carter's first campaign started four years before the election and that its best to try things out early and out of the public eye.  Of course, that was before YouTube.  

    [ Parent ]
    Sad, sad, sad! (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by caramel on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:57:09 PM EST
    that in the world of Talkleft these days there is no room for anything else but the primaries when SO MUCH important stuff is happening in the US and the rest of the world... I'm very disappointed and that's an understatement. I really used to like this blog!

    Since this is an open thread, (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:57 PM EST
    highlight the issues that concern you.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh I dunno (5.00 / 8) (#97)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:53 PM EST
    A TalkLeft old timer said that to me last night, and I agreed that, yes, it's quite disruptive here right now - that is, the presence of people like me is disruptive.

    But, you know what? I think what's going on with the Dems is pretty huge. Yes, I know, everyone is talking unity and now the Obama supporters have decided they need to "reach out" to everyone they've alienated (including former Obama supporters like me).

    But they're a day late and a dollar short.

    Iow, there's a real, genuine split and it could have profound consequences. Too many people like me have decided they just don't want anything to do with it, and have returned to their previous feelings that politics are for monied people who know how to scream really loudly, but really don't have anything to do with people like me - because we don't have a voice - because we can't buy it and/or are unwilling to base our positions on how bullying we can be instead of things which are a bit more - hm - how should I put it? - ethical and humane, perhaps?

    We've got a big problem, iow.

    And it could lead to very bad consequences for this nation.

    I think that's worth talking about myself.

    [ Parent ]

    There is an article down the page about Gitmo. (none / 0) (#39)
    by tigercourse on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:26 PM EST
    Did you comment in there?

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:06 PM EST
    This blog has always been about the latest happenings and the law.  The Democratic primaries have been one accusation and one lawsuit after another and is the biggest latest happening going on out there.

    [ Parent ]
    I somewhat agree with the commenter (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:51 PM EST
    though.  Myanmar, China, Tibet:  not happening here.  

    [ Parent ]
    Tell us what we should say about it (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:29 PM EST
    My thoughts - terrible terrible stuff.

    What else should I say?

    [ Parent ]

    I had, as you know, a great deal of (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:42 PM EST
    admiration for the woman at Docudharma who did her own research on U.S. sanctions against the junta in Myanmar, who escaped the sanctions (read:  U.S. controlled oil companies); also the twice daily updates on world events.  Of course, I could go over there and read those, but I might miss another post here about unity ticket or MI/FL!

    [ Parent ]
    Interestingly (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:52 PM EST
    As I told Buhdy, who hates me now BTW, that the reason I was taking a hiatus from DD was to be a horserace blogger.

    And I have been true to my word.

    [ Parent ]

    They took a break (none / 0) (#131)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:49 PM EST
    juror family emergency.  

    [ Parent ]
    Don't you get just a teeny bit bored though? (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:30:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    World events have been observed here (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:14:03 PM EST
    but with the legal twist to things most of the focus has always been about U.S. political/legal issues.

    [ Parent ]
    I have to apply duct tape re the posts (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:20:47 PM EST
    about criminal justice in the U.S. or world.  Once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor.  

    [ Parent ]
    Like what? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:31 PM EST
    Open thread and you can not suggest some topics for us?

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#61)
    by Fabian on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:07:31 PM EST
    A Columbus bar is getting ready to challenge the state wide smoking ban.

    A pro life group is going to press a First Amendment suit in Ohio.  It's about the 30 day moratorium before the elections on "issues" ads that use a candidate's name.  No other groups have joined the action yet.

    I'm sure there's another local legal issue, but I forget right now.

    [ Parent ]

    A Circuit Court of Appeals struck down (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:09:45 PM EST
    a criminal statute on partial birth abortion as narrowing latest SCOTUS opinion on the subject.  

    [ Parent ]
    ugh (none / 0) (#206)
    by Kathy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:23:11 PM EST
    PLEASE don't use that awful right-wing phrase.  "Third trimester" is the medical designation.

    [ Parent ]
    Sad, sad, sad! (none / 0) (#76)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:11:43 PM EST
    Like the Rezko trial?
    I have not seen the MSM mention any of the important things either..the only thing i see them saying and doing is bashing Hillary with pure sexist stuff..appalling i tell you!!


    [ Parent ]
    Nothing happening in Rezko until jury (none / 0) (#116)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:21:49 PM EST
    reaches or fails to reach a verdict.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm listening to to the FL speech now (5.00 / 7) (#38)
    by andgarden on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:14 PM EST
    Hillary clearly has the better of the argument.

    It's time to talk about the meeting last August again. Anyone who decided to apply the nuclear option on FL and Mi on that meeting should be expelled from the committee.

    [cough] Donna Brazile [cough] (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by madamab on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:26:09 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hillary supporters to demonstrate at DNC (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Radiowalla on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:02:58 PM EST
    meeting in Washington, DC on May 31
    Here is the email that was forwarded to me today.  If I could be there, I would.

    Dear Fellow Hillary Supporters,
    If you believe that the DNC must honor our core democratic principles and enfranchise the people of MI and FL and their respective delegations,
    If you believe that Hillary Clinton is best for our party, most likely to win in November and best for our country,
    If you believe the contest for the democratic nomination must not end before all of the votes from each State and US Territory have been cast and counted and that nominating conventions, not candidates (or the media), declare the nominee,
    If you believe that the media and DNC have underestimated the passion, strength, intensity and determination of Hillary supporters and the power of the women's vote,

    Then Join a group of Hillary supporters who are planning to visit Washington, D.C. on Saturday, May 31st to attend the meeting of the DNC Rules Committee and rally outside the DNC headquarters in support of Michigan and Florida;
    ....the DNC Rules Committee is meeting that day to make a determination with respect to MI and FL and we think it is essential to convene in Washington to support our cherished democratic principles, help enfranchise MI and FL and to show that Hillary has equally high numbers of passionate, devoted supporters who believe fervently that she will be the better general candidate and best president.  
    Our purpose is not to divide the party or attack the DNC or Senator Obama.  At the same time, Hillary's strong support cannot be dismissed in DNC efforts to unify the party.

    Please let us know if you will be able to join us.  E-mail rsvp@buellofficesf.com

    The Office of Susie Tompkins Buell

    & Mark Buell

    P.O. Box 29921

    San Francisco, CA 94129-9921

    t: 415.248.7820 | f: 415.441.6381

     

    I'd rather a strong contingent of MI and FL (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:08:20 PM EST
    Dem.s show up.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd rather a strong contingent of MI and FL (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by fly on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:42 PM EST
    Fl had alot of busses go up there approx a month ago with lots and lots of Floridians..no MSM reported it!!..now i know that will surprise no one here!!
    Many of our state congress people were with the Fl contingency that went up there and stayed up there with them.
    Unfortunately i could not go as i was out of the country..but they had alot of Floridians who went ..and took that long bus ride to DC!!

    fly

    [ Parent ]

    My husband made some signs for that. We (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by FLVoter on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:44:23 PM EST
    donated the blue count our votes signs.  Yes, it was a large group. The local paper did run a second page story on it.  I saw no national tv coverage on it.

    [ Parent ]
    I Think You Should Stand Firm In Your Belief (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:06:06 PM EST
    Rules are important. Nothing should supersede the RULES. Voters? Not important. The Rules are everything. Winning the GE? No, the Rules are much, much more important than having a Dem in the WH.

    Bright line theory. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yes, RULES (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:40:58 PM EST
    The election of the president of the United States has become a game. Pure and simple. The rules are constantly put ahead of the goal, and the side who bends those rules to the point just before they snap keeps getting away with accusing the opponent of their own sins.

    As in any game, the rules are intended to create fair play, but the DNC is led by that frustrating player who has discovered a way to cheat by using (not following) the rules.

    It reminds me of the deck of cards GWB handed out to the military at the start of the war. How much do you suppose the Pentagon spent on those cards? Clearly, that too, started out as a game.

    [ Parent ]

    Votes were cast (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by Democratic Cat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:07:22 PM EST
    Ignoring votes that were cast is undemocratic. Period.

    If you think the outcome in FL would have been different had the magic fairy waved her wand before the election ane said "yes, this will count" then you are the one suffering from an inability to reason.

    This afternoon (5.00 / 9) (#132)
    by txpolitico67 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:27:17 PM EST
    I had an electrician come to my house to quote me a price for some work to be done.  My