Kentucky 's Demographics

Five threads in one day for John Edwards is plenty. Even the Washington Post says his endorsement will have a short news cycle hit and in the end not matter much.

So, onto Kentucky. Hillary got the endorsement today of four former Democratic KY governors. The demographics favor her. And, while a record number have registered to vote, only 16,000 new voters registered since January. [More...]

A record 2.8 million Kentuckians are registered to vote in the primary election. Of those, 1.6 million are Democrats. And, despite the close presidential primary, the number of new registered voters hasn't skyrocketed. In the past six months, 16,000 people have registered, 13,000 of them as Democrats.

Records from the Kentucky Board of Elections show that 53 percent of the state's registered voters are women, a demographic that has played in Clinton's favor in other states. Kentucky doesn't track party registrants by race, but blacks make up only 7.4 percent of the state's population compared with 12.4 percent nationally — a far smaller minority voting bloc than in other Southern states carried by Obama.

And Kentucky voters are slightly older than voters nationally, another advantage for Clinton.

There are 51 delegates. As for superdelegates:

Clinton has won the endorsement of three of Kentucky's Democratic superdelegates. Obama has been endorsed by two, both Democratic congressmen representing the state's two largest cities. Three other superdelegates remain undecided.

On polls: May 9 - 11, Survey USA:

Survey USA Kentucky Poll conducted on 9 May – 11 May showed Clinton leading Obama by 32 points – 62 to 30 among Kentucky Democratic primary voters. Conducted on sample size of 641, the poll, with Margin of error: ± 3.8 , indicated a massive victory for Clinton.

So long as Hillary remains in the race, we'll keep following the primaries. She deserves at least that. And so do her supporters.

Comments now closed.

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    Is it true that Edwards was a (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Shainzona on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:03:56 PM EST
    former Axelrod client?


    True (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by facta non verba on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:34:56 PM EST
    Alexrod was Edwards' campaign strategist in 2004. This time around, Alexrod said of Edwards that "he couldn't close the deal." He went on to say that he had run a brilliant campaign but that Edwards was flawed.

    facta...remind you of anyone else...obama hasn't (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:42:36 PM EST
    been able to seal the deal either and he certainly is flawed...

    Whoops, sorry to bring up Edwards (none / 0) (#3)
    by Shainzona on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:04:45 PM EST

    On to Kentucky!

    Rise.  Hillary.  Rise!


    First we take WV, then we take Kentucky (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:04:14 PM EST
    (sung to First we take Manhattan then we take Berlin)

    And then THE NOMINATION!!! :) NT (5.00 / 5) (#11)
    by Marvin42 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:09:58 PM EST
    Now that song is in my head. (none / 0) (#105)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:42:19 PM EST
    Who sings it?  Gonna drive me nuts!

    Leonard Cohen (none / 0) (#130)
    by karen for Clinton on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:58:12 PM EST
    Leonard Cohen (none / 0) (#131)
    by herb the verb on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:58:43 PM EST
    I have seen the comment (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by zyx on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:06:59 PM EST
    made on the exit poll in neighboring WV, that ""Two in 10 whites said the race of the candidate was a factor in their vote, second only to Mississippi."

    Has this question ever been asked of AA voters?  I am seriously curious.

    dunno but I am skeptical (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by moll on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:58 PM EST
    I don't know, but what I am curious about is how that question is asked and how it is meant to be interpreted.

    Is race a factor? could mean Is race a factor that affects your decision? or it could mean Do you believe race is a factor that could affect the overall outcome? Or....??

    You get the point.

    It has to be very carefully worded, and the results should be treated with caution.


    Yes...it's about the same iirc. (5.00 / 8) (#43)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:18:37 PM EST
    It's such a red herring. How many racists are there supposed to be in America? Jeebus!

    There is something wrong with OBAMA, not the voters who don't vote for him. It is his fault the majority of Democratic voters don't want him for President.


    Amen To That Madamab. And Wouldn't It Be (5.00 / 5) (#151)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:14:22 PM EST
    great if some of those obama followers would awake from their slumber and come toward the light?  Honestly, I know I am biased, but it seems as plain as the noses on their faces that Hillary is the more viable and experienced candidate.  What does it tell you when you ask one obama's followers what he stands for and they answer "hope and change" and are at a loss for anything past that...

    Or they say (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:05:14 AM EST
    'have you read his book?'

    I've had that one thrown at me.


    Voters may look at AA bloc votes and notice race (5.00 / 2) (#209)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:35:24 AM EST
    When asked, they may very well say that they believe race has had an effect on the vote, and all the while assume the pollster means the way Black voters are almost entirely for Obama, thinking they wouldn't be were he not Black.  The obvious observation is very different from white racists refusing to vote for a Black candidate, but Tweety sure couldn't see it.

    Notice how the anchors and pundits said Hillary won WV cause they were poor, old and undereducated?

    How many of the assertions(or assumptions) expressed  the last 28 hours would have led  viewers  to learn that :

    Young people in West Virginia voted for Hillary  59 - 35 . ? And Hillary has tended to win young votes since California except among Blacks!

    People with  college  made up 58% of the vote.  Hillary won them 61 - 30!  (and 14 %  of the voters  listed Post Graduate and Hillary won them  55 - 40!)

    People earning over $50,000 made up 45 % of the vote.  Hillary won them  61 - 30!

    Independents made up 18% of the vote.  Hillary won them  54 - 32.!

    Union households made up  35% of the vote.  Hillary won them  69 - 23!

    Liberals made up 34% of the vote. Hillary won them  67 - 29!  (She won 'Very Liberal' 72 - 23!)

    Yep, course she won;they're all old, poor undereducated, conservative women!


    you forgot to mention that they're all (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by cpinva on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:01:49 AM EST
    racists. this is very important to the story.

    Yep, course she won;they're all old, poor undereducated, conservative women!

    blacks, by definition can't be racist, only majorities can be. as a consequence, they vote strictly based on qualifications.

    bogus? you betcha! racism knows no boundaries, everyone can play! but reality seems a quality difficult to locate in the obama camp these days.

    i've no doubt some votes (by everyone) were cast, based solely on the race (or gender) of the candidates. i suspect more so in the AA community, but that's just speculation, i've no quantifiable data to support it. so what? as a black man, or a female, they should expect that and deal with it. i'm not suggesting it's right or acceptable, just our present reality.

    the difference between the candidates in this regard is glaring: sen. obama loses a primary, it must be racism; sen. clinton loses a primary, she just moves on.

    if the obama camp whines this much, during the democratic primaries, they are in for a truly rude awakening, come the GE, should he be the eventual dem. nominee.


    Wow. (5.00 / 12) (#5)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:07:37 PM EST
    I wonder if Kentucky voters will outdo predictions like the West Virginia voters did?

    I'm not giving up on our girl. She stays strong and so should we!

    Obama is desperate. Remember this is all a show to dispirit and demoralize her followers.

    She is the strongest and the best, and she should be the nominee. Yes, she will!

    Calling Kentucky tomorrow (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:09:34 PM EST
    Should we waste time calling Oregon?

    I don't know... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:10:55 PM EST
    have they all voted by mail at this point?

    Doesn't sound like it. They have til (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:14:18 PM EST
    Tuesday, so I would say do heavy calling until Friday at least. They can still do drop offs on Tues. So maybe alternate states on the weekend. lol!~  :)

    YES, CALL OREGON (5.00 / 10) (#17)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:11:31 PM EST
    Don't give up, Stellaaa.  Even if he's slated to win, we need to do all we can to shut down the margins and bring it as close as possible.

    Funny thing when calling (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:05 PM EST
    I hardly have a detectable accent left, but when I do this political calling, I think I sound like those service centers and I have to keep saying I am a volunteer.  Accents show up at the oddest times.  It's that "hillary clinton" for a non native american, is a dead giveaway.  Cannot say it without sounding like I just came to America.  

    Oregon ballots not due until May 20. (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by caseyOR on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:41:51 PM EST
    There are still quite a few voters here in Oregon who have yet to return their ballot. Many, many, many people do not return their ballots until election day. Please keep calling. All help appreciated.

    Casey....Is That Usual For People To Wait (none / 0) (#154)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:16:34 PM EST
    til the "bitter" end to send in their ballots?

    In a word, yes. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by caseyOR on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:23:35 PM EST
    The last day to mail ballots is Friday. Ballots must be received by 8 pm on May 20. The postmark is irrelevant. Many people decide the weekend before election day and then hand-deliver their ballots to one of the many drop-off sites around the state. So, this is s great time to make phone calls in Oregon.

    Only 22% of ballots returned (5.00 / 2) (#223)
    by caseyOR on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:46:49 AM EST
    According to the Sec. of State's office, as of May 13, only 22% of ballots had been returned. Lots of voters are still deciding.

    Here's another reason to call (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by tree on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:28:38 AM EST
    According to SUSA Oregon poll from 2 days ago, Clinton's trailing by 9, but among those that have already voted, she's only behind by 1, so there are still people out there to be persuaded, and Obama's lead can still be cut. You go girl!

    I would like to make calls but I have never done (none / 0) (#225)
    by bridget on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:08:40 AM EST
    it before -I really want to help but I have no idea how this works and worry I may not know the right answers.  

    Will I get instructions from the campaign?

    I have been wanting to ask this question. What do you all think? I live on the West coast. Please advice!


    You'll get instructions from the campaign. (none / 0) (#226)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:16:34 AM EST
    Call by all means.

    thank you cal (none / 0) (#229)
    by bridget on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:28:24 AM EST
    great to get a response to my qs this late :-)

    time to go to bed now - will call tom.

    Go Hillary!


    I was just in Oregon, going back this weekend (5.00 / 7) (#52)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:08 PM EST
    First of all, SUSA said that of ballots already received, it was 50-49 Obama. Secondly, many remain undecided. Thirdly, my sense walking around there was people were MUCH more open to voting Hillary than I expected (compared to the SF Bay Area.)

    Finally, women were tearing into the campaign office asking for lawn signs and what they could do because they were devastated.

    Call Oregon! It's a quirky state. They are very anti-war. Obama's gas tax attack ad is running there, so if you can say something about that or about his Nuclear Power bill that lobbyists were able to water down with little effort, that would be great!

    Final day Oregonioans can drop off mail-in ballots is Tue May 20! Drop boxes all over the state for voters who missed mail-in deadline.


    remember, he voted FOR the Cheney (5.00 / 4) (#117)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:50:37 PM EST
    Energy Bill. Hillary did not.

    Also, if you hit rural or farming folks, you can check her Senate site for info:


    Nice! One challenge with Oregon (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:01:23 PM EST
    is they're not hurting there. A median family income of $70K is considered an upscale neighborhood.

    Lots of independent farms though, so your link helps!


    Got another one for ya here (5.00 / 5) (#148)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:12:27 PM EST
    Talks about more regarding animals, farm and raising

    One thing that stands out about Clinton's record is that she has taken a leadership role in efforts to stop the overuse of antibiotics in farm animals.  The same drugs used to treat illness in people are often used in massive quantities on factory farms--not because the animals are sick, but in order to build up immunity so more animals can be crammed together in overcrowded, stressful, unsanitary conditions.  Because these drugs are pumped into the food we eat, they lose their effectiveness when they're needed most.

    Many folks care about safe food production etc. Also safe imports


    That may be true in some (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by seeker on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:51:40 PM EST
    neighborhoods.  But Portland, as a whole, has a median FAMILY income of around $43,000.  Rural areas, of which there are a lot, are lower.  Many are still hurting badly from the collapse of the timber industry.  And the Coast has just seen the salmon season entirely cancelled.  Big hit to that entire economy.  Those are just a few examples.

    Don't let a few wealthy neighborhoods in Portland, Eugene, Bend and Ashland fool you.


    Maybe It Is True, The More They Get To Know (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:18:53 PM EST
    obama, the less palatable he is.  It would be great to know exactly how many people have changed their minds about voting for him, if that is the case.

    Could you post a link? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Faust on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:26:10 PM EST
    For this information:

    SUSA said that of ballots already received, it was 50-49 Obama.

    I think it was TalkLeft (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:41:43 PM EST
    Darn, trying to find it.

    What it said was, of ballots handed in: neck and neck.

    Overall voters: Obama ahead, but Hillary closer than a few weeks ago. Also, Obama ahead of Hillary, but a large portion in the middle that were undecided (like Obama 48 Hillary 40, undecided 12, something like that.)


    SUSA poll (none / 0) (#221)
    by tree on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:37:59 AM EST
    Scroll over to the column labeled "already voted", just to the right of "race", under "actual v" you'll see that the numbers are 48 Clinton and 49 Obama.

    On Calling Oregon (5.00 / 12) (#53)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:19 PM EST
    By all means; I understand the race is closer there than we might think, and we surely want to gain as many delegates as possible.

    I am in the middle of finals, but I am so annoyed at the Edwards' endorsement and the attempt to discourage Clinton voters in upcoming primaries, that I am taking time out from studying to phone bank.


    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#222)
    by tree on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:41:29 AM EST
    If you need info specific to Oregon, let them know about Hillary's Oregon Compact. It's a good plan, much more detailed of course than Obama's plan, and it doesn't relocate the Great Lakes into Oregon like Obama's did.

    I am with you (5.00 / 13) (#13)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:10:27 PM EST
    been phone banking my ear off and will continue to do so.  KY calls have been going over very, very well.  Lots of "she's already got my vote!" answers (from the ones who answered).

    Rise, Hillary, Rise!


    you're here.... (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:11:50 PM EST

    never give up/never surrender (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:14:01 PM EST
    My cat is nearly maxed out, but I've got another one and we're all giving to Emily's List to GOTV.  KY is the test --Obama's last chance to try to win back the largest voting bloc the dems have.  We have to do our part to help our girl!  Onwards!

    Since You Are Maxed Out, Did You See The (5.00 / 8) (#83)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:32:29 PM EST
    the WomenCount PAC request for support on Taylor Marsh. They are running full page ads for Hillary in various new papers. It is a very powerful ad celebrating women.

    Yep! (5.00 / 5) (#92)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:36:21 PM EST
    Fedexed them a check today!  I am a multi-tasked for Clinton!

    Wasn't That A Beautiful Ad? n/t (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:52:32 PM EST
    Let us know tomorrow if anyone (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:13:12 PM EST
    mentions the Edwards endorsement.

    Desperate (none / 0) (#227)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:23:13 AM EST
    I hope SDs notice that his last swing state primary win was in Wisconsin on Feb. 19 and his last primary win in a Democratic state was Vermont on Mar. 4th.

    Agreed Jeralyn! (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Andy08 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:08:36 PM EST
    onto Kentucky!! Interesting demographics.

    The media will be deployed (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:09:10 PM EST
    time to go find as many stories of local Kentucky folk who think uneducated things about Obama to later dismiss the population as backwards and not relevant.

    Question: If Hillary really blows out Obama again in Kentucky who will be the first to write a headline that uses a KFC pun?

    Or a Kentucky derby pun (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:10:32 PM EST
    of some kind.

    Twetty has already done that one! (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Shainzona on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:14:30 PM EST
    You mean like (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by mg7505 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:56:38 PM EST
    covering the horse race?

    Sorry if someone already posted this!


    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:13:32 PM EST
    I was in KY back in March.  My cab driver was telling me how Obama doesn't say the Pledge of Allegiance and that he believes in the Koran instead of the Bible.  Well, he couldn't think of the name of the book actually, he called it "that Muslim book."

    How's that for anecdotal evidence?  This really happened.


    Truly (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:18:25 PM EST
    this stuff is viral. My son came home from middle school with the story that Obama was a muslim and he hated america. Of course, I told him the truth but it's become the truth to lots of people.

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:23:50 PM EST
    The funny part of the story is how I, as a good Democrat, tried to stick up for Obama.

    I didn't get in the guy's face or anything, but I politely told him, "It's actually not true that he's a Muslim, I know the church he goes to in Chicago and it's a Christian church."

    In hindsight, if I had known the Wright controversy would make the front pages, I probably wouldn't have brought up the church.  But hey, I tried.

    I do think the guy was a Democrat though.  He said something like, if it comes down to it, he supposes he'd have to vote to make Bill Clinton the First Lady.


    I too think that's a fine idea. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by derridog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:41:18 PM EST
    That's a good one! (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Lisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:49:41 PM EST
    Never heard it put that way, but Bill Clinton as First Lady makes me smile. :-)

    Well It Seems That Obama Is Doing (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:42:42 PM EST
    dedicated "Christian"  fliers like he did in S.C.

    In Kentucky, he is making a direct appeal to Evangelicals with flyers that mention his conversion experience and they highlight a big old cross. Remember Mike Huckabee's supposed subliminal cross in his Christmas campaign ad? Well, the Obama campaign ditches the subliminal and goes for the in your face cross. Look at the flyer here. CBN

    Not sure that this is a good idea since it just might bring Rev. Wright back into the news in KY. Oh, well.


    OMG!! (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Josey on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:24:18 PM EST
    reminds me of those pics of Bush in front of a cross with a halo effect on his head.
    Obama is so much like Bush - empty suit and all.

    This is shameful (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by angie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:38:15 PM EST
    And it isn't the first time he has done this -- he did it in SC (of course, you would not know it from the coverage) and that is really when I knew I could never support him. Although a Christian myself, I am an ultra-strong supporter of the separation of church & state. The overt religious appeal is what turns me off of the GOP. I was outraged with Huckabee's "Christmas message" and I am just as outraged with Obama's pandering as well.  I honestly cannot see how any Dem can support him when he pulls this kind of bs (although I couldn't see how any Dem could support him when he toured SC with McClurkin either, so there ya go).

    I was handed on in Texas... (none / 0) (#197)
    by znosaro on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:25:46 PM EST
    while I was campaigning there.  Shows what he thinks of voters in certain states.  "I'll vote for that man because he loves the Jesus!"

    Wow. Did you read the comments? (none / 0) (#171)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:29:06 PM EST
    Yes. I liked the one who said (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by LHinSeattle on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:51:42 PM EST
     that he tended to distrust people who kept putting "God" into their conversations; they were up to something.

    These people (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:13 PM EST
    voted for Bush in 2004, a majority of them anyway, but I sure didn't see the concern about their education level or anything back then did you?

    Fortunately (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:32:30 PM EST
    Many working class Americans do not have cable; it's too expensive, so they have not been exposed to the 24/7 chatter of the pro-Obama talking heads who hold themselves out as "objective", i.e., journalists.  

    Oh, I don't know about that (5.00 / 4) (#89)
    by dissenter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:33:55 PM EST
    I think they are just sending them a big F You.

    Jon Stewart. (none / 0) (#12)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:10:11 PM EST
    He was making fun of WV voters last night.

    What a class act.


    ugh (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by moll on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:26:29 PM EST
    He was making fun of WV voters last night.

    I adored Jon Stewart til this election. When I saw him making fun of a construction worker, it was like something hit me in the gut. Like I just realized, I am not supposed to be in his audience :(


    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:28:49 PM EST
    I don't expect the Daily Show to be respectful of anyone or anything.

    But if they were true to their mission, what they'd be ridiculing is the media's depiction of WV voters as hopeless rubes, rather than taking the easy shot at the voters.

    Reality is, they're still a commercial enterprise, and their audience is obviously pro-Obama in a big way.  So they succumb to pandering like everyone else.


    Exactamente (5.00 / 8) (#96)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:37:47 PM EST
    I REALLY REALLY don't like this kind of stereotyping and demeaning of rural people. Everything is topsy-turvy - I thought liberals were supposed to be the champions of the poor and the working class? All the Obama people seem to be contemptuous of them now, calling them bubbas and rednecks, etc. It's weird.

    Me too, I was a starry eyed liberal not long ago (5.00 / 7) (#108)
    by Lisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:45:39 PM EST
    I thought we were sticking up for the underdog.  I thought we were all about equality for all, genuine equality.  Appreciating everyone's gifts that come in many wondrous varieties, and all that.

    That's why I recently left the party/went independent.  I don't recognize it anymore.

    I am wondering, was it this way all along, and this horrible election just opened my eyes?  Or has it slowly become this way.


    Same here (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:50:56 PM EST
    I also left the party - just doesn't stand for my principles anymore, it's no longer progressive. Or, more accurately, it's progressive sometimes, like when it's convenient to be.

    And I wonder the same as you - was I blind before?

    I've also realized during all of this that there is a lot of extremism on the left just as on the right. I'm not OK with that.


    Right, Dr. M (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Lisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:59:03 PM EST
    Same thoughts I've been having - the far right and far left are both flip sides of the same coin.  

    Yes, that's what gave us Fascism and Communism, (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by feet on earth on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:23:08 PM EST
    with one common denominator = Dictatorship not distinguishable from one another

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:46:32 PM EST
    I don't know how many of the folks who write jokes for the Daily Show happen to hail from the heartland.  I'd be curious to know.

    As a Midwesterner now living in NYC, I find the folks around here aren't necessarily the most open-minded when it comes to the people living out in the sticks.  It's a shame, one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world, and no one seems to know the difference between Michigan and Minnesota.


    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    I've realized that there are closed-minded, provincial people in the sticks and there are closed-minded, provincial people in the cities.

    We don't have a reputation for being nice (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by andgarden on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:53:05 PM EST
    we east coast elites keep losing elections, though. . .

    The coastal elites... (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:57:07 PM EST
    deserve to lose.  The way they treat the working class is horrible.  

    One of my greatest pleasures ... (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by Robot Porter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:55:39 PM EST
    in this campaign has been watching progressive Clinton supporters finally seeing these supposed "progressive icons" like John Stewart for who they really are.

    I consider myself a person of the left, or a progressive.  But I've never been a particular fan of the progressive blogs, Olbermann and MSNBC, much of Air America, or John Stewart.

    In this race, most of these people have shown their true colors, and I no longer need to make the argument about why I think they're not "on our side."


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:57:38 PM EST
    my question is who IS on our side?

    McCain? (none / 0) (#142)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:04:11 PM EST

    That's (none / 0) (#233)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:39:37 AM EST
    part of the support he's getting from some quarters of the Democratic "leadership" and especially from a large segment of his supporters.  Contempt for working people and rural people.

    For several posts on this subject try:


    Some significant portion of the Obama crowd and it would appear some of the Democratic "leadership" want to dump workers from the party's coalition.

    If that's the case, the Democratic party would become something like a modern day version of the old Whig party.  Arrogant, elitist losers.


    I stopped watching the daily show (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Josmt on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:54:01 PM EST
    about a month ago, I used to love the show, but now it has become so unwatchable... I still watch the Colbert report but I might give that up as well.

    Which means that Stewart is just... (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:53:07 PM EST
    another hack.  Colbert is just plain stupid.

    I am young but I do not have much in common with these two morons.


    I just dug deep (5.00 / 13) (#9)
    by eleanora on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:09:53 PM EST
    and donated another $100 to Hillary. I refuse to give up, as long as she's still running then I'm standing behind her. And I'm going to go make phone calls to KY right now. This is not over.

    Wow (5.00 / 6) (#71)
    by Dr Molly on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:25:49 PM EST
    You guys are inspiring - eleanora, kathy, madamab, stellaa - really impressive.

    I've given up on Hillary winning the nom - it's all been decided by the deciders apparently. But I do love to see the voters continue to push back against the media bullying, the Obama club bullying, the overall contempt shown for their intelligence. So, I've got my fingers crossed for a very strong Hillary vote in KY!


    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by eleanora on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:31:03 PM EST
    I stormed off all self-righteous and then realized Kentucky is EST! So calling them at 10pm might be counter-productive. But I cleared my schedule and will phonebank tomorrow. Hang in there--even if we can't win, at least we'll make them bring their lunch and stay all day :)

    Sorry in advance (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by magisterludi on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:09:54 PM EST
    for OT-but Denny Crain is being considered by the RNC to run against McCain on Boston Legal.

    Kinda like Obama and the DNC!

    Who does Obama have standing by to (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:11:12 PM EST
    endorse him the day after Hillary Clinton swamps him in KY?  Jimmy Carter, maybe?  

    Gandhi (5.00 / 9) (#20)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:12:05 PM EST
    Mahatma or Indira? (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:13:27 PM EST
    or both?

    No girls allowed! Mahatma! (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:14:20 PM EST
    Both--Petal Gandhi (none / 0) (#30)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:15 PM EST
    their love child, persuaded them to go to the light that is O.

    You are doing a great job of (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:00 PM EST
    cheering me up!

    I live to serve, my friend! (5.00 / 11) (#56)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:27 PM EST
    Hey, y'all, I skimmed some of the sad sacking about Edwards.  Who knows what happened there (and I don't think that theirs is the marriage where he'd do something without Elizabeth saying okay, but that's another discussion done been had, as my pappy said)  

    Lookit: nothing has changed except the media found a new bone to chew on.  They have pronounced Clinton DOA so many times she should have just passed the morgue and gone directly to the grave, BUT SHE DID NOT.  People still keep voting for her, people still believe in her.  They are giving money and time and blood, sweat and tears.

    Considering what the last eight years have been like, how awful things have been, how we've been lied to, how we have been bullied and denigrated, it feels dang good to me to be fighting for a dem again and railing on about dem values.  This election would not mean so much but for the fact that we are all fighting for this together.  I don't care what Edwards or Carter or Gore or precious little Petal Gandhi says: the voters are speaking louder than any of them, the media included, and I am still standing right behind our girl.  RISE, HILLARY, RISE!!!


    If Obama were lucky enough to have (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:25:04 PM EST
    you on his team, he would have the nomination.

    Feh (5.00 / 8) (#79)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:28:27 PM EST
    Kerry couldn't get me jazzed; I doubt Obama could.  I am doing this all for Hillary.  I think a lot of women are.  It's crossed the line now, and we see so much of our own struggles being embodied by her.  (And, of course I mean "women" as in the smart ones; you know, those elderly, low info voters)

    Ditto (5.00 / 8) (#85)
    by LeftyFan on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:32:55 PM EST
    I am doing this all for Hillary.  I think a lot of women are.

    Men too!


    Lot of Alpha Males for Hillary (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:49:46 PM EST
    I've loved meeting the passionate men committed to Hillary, knew more about what she did for women's rights than most. Just regular men.

    My 84 year old dad is a Hillary supporter (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:27:14 PM EST
    ...he has been since she declared her intent to run.

    He's always been my hero.


    Masculine women too! (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by sarahfdavis on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:53:12 PM EST
    And femenine men! I'm in SF and the homos and dykes
    prefer hillary overwhelmingly. (p.s. I can use a slur against
    myself...y'all know how that works.)

    One thing we didn't see enough of (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by mg7505 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:04:01 PM EST
    in this election was gender-based humor. I don't mean nasty sexism (saw too much of that). I'm talking about the folks with clever slogans like "Hillary, period!" That was part of what excited me about her campaign early on -- that and Hillary is f*ing awesome.

    when Jon Stewart was still funny, (none / 0) (#204)
    by ghost2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:56:13 PM EST
    he had one of these jokes.  He made fun of Hillary's slogan, "let the conversation begin", and implied that it'd scare men to no end.  Then he says, "What's your Iraq policy? America, let's pull over and ask for directions?"

    Don't Leave Out (5.00 / 1) (#237)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:51:49 AM EST
    the fact that many men, a growing number, also support Hillary and with great enthusiasm.

    Support her for the only legitimate reason to support a Presidential candidate.  Because we believe she'll be a fine President. A fighting President. A Democratic President.


    Now you're thinking like Obama... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:12:35 PM EST
    just throw enough "important" people at the media and the voters will finally admit His Greatness!

    Jesus, no doubt. (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by derridog on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:14:31 PM EST
    Is he a superdelegate? (none / 0) (#116)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:50:35 PM EST
    He'll have little more sway than Edwards IMO.

    Nope. Donna Brazile (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by Cream City on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:37:46 PM EST
    is questioning Jesus' credentials.  Meaning, of course, she already has her messiah -- and he's bored and tired and wants it to be ooooooover.

    Donna's Messiah? Bored? (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by felizarte on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:15:36 AM EST
    Does he want to rush the crucifixion too?

    Well, since they couldn't verify ... (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by cymro on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:26:39 AM EST
    ... his home address, what do you expect?

    Jesus is a Clinton supporter. (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by soccermom on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:39:36 PM EST
    I was wondering the same thing (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:17:38 PM EST
    who will be the weapon of mass distraction?

    Well Today (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by talex on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:29:32 PM EST
    he got endorsed by three former SEC Chairman. Can't say those are glowing endorsements given the fraud that has gone on in the stock market.

    And then to make matters worse one of them was a George Bush appointee.

    When the stock market endorses you it isn't because you don't support big business.


    Well (none / 0) (#93)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:36:41 PM EST
    Arthur Levitt was an extremely pro-investor chairman.  That's an endorsement I would value as a progressive.

    As another (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:37:39 PM EST
    poster has said:
    Both Obama and McCain will drive the country into a ditch. It's just a matter of whether you want to take A1A or Route 66?

    Neal Kinnock. (none / 0) (#32)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:24 PM EST
    Gerry Adams (none / 0) (#38)
    by dissenter on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:38 PM EST
    to shore up the catholic vote

    Has the Pope endorsed yet? (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:20:49 PM EST
    Or has Obama got enough trouble with preachers?

    Eric Rudolph? Well, that would be TN. (none / 0) (#41)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:17:49 PM EST
    If Hillary wins big, I will have a (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:11:55 PM EST
    "hot brown" and a few shots of Crown Royal.

    I'll have to figure out how to make a mint (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:15:24 PM EST

    I think it's pretty easy (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:03 PM EST
    My parents were from the South (I grew up in Seattle) and made mint juleps every summer.

    Awesome (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:18:53 PM EST
    I know how.  A bunch of friends here we used to do a Derby party with Juleps, we would bet and give the money to various causes.  

    Mint Julep:  is basically a mojito with bourbon.  


    What you want is a blackberry julep (none / 0) (#228)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:27:17 AM EST
    Bourbon, blackberry cassis, club soda, crushed ice, lemon, powdered sugar around the rim.  YUM.  Oh, and mint and fresh blackberries, if you have 'em.

    I'm heading to Paducah, KY tomorrow.  Will update when I find out what's happening on the ground.  I'm sure it'll be a madhouse, in a good way.

    I think the four-former-Governors thing is HUGE.  Ford and Patton both carry a lot of water hereabouts.  It's partly why I think the SDs are holding out; most of the southern SDs are pro-Hillary, big time.  


    Where's Barbra when you need her? (none / 0) (#76)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:27:05 PM EST
    I think she should do a concert!

    KY will be called quickly too (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by andgarden on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:02 PM EST
    I think the margin will be 25-30 points this time.

    in ink? (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:19:51 PM EST
    going out on a limb again! (none / 0) (#98)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:38:53 PM EST
    you crystal ball, you

    Please people (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by michellemarie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:16:55 PM EST
    we need to work hard for Oregon. Imagine that-- if she WON Oregon, things would change. The media could not ignore an Oregon victory FOR CLINTON. This is our last hope--help Oregon flip off the Democratic leadership and elect Clinton as the nominee. This would be a "game-changer."

    If only andgarden would tell us (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:19:28 PM EST
    how that is possible.

    Hey (5.00 / 6) (#57)
    by JustJennifer on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:35 PM EST
    I am headed to Oregon tomorrow to get any late deciding voters we can for Hillary.  The ballots in Oregon can be hand delivered up until May 20th at 8:00 PST.  

    JustJennifer I'm heading to Portland (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:56:43 PM EST
    Friday. Hope to stay thru Tues night for the victory party.

    catfish...me too! (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by JustJennifer on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:18:16 PM EST
    I will be going to Portland as well.  I will probably have to head back Sunday but I am really looking foward to helping with the final push for Hillary.

    Oregon calling going very well (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by catfish on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:59:17 PM EST
    This people are so easy to talk to. Many voted already for Hillary many planning to.

    He's running gas tax attack ads and it's having some effects. But even voters who are for Obama will talk to you - we had a great phone banker Jennifer who would respond as if that were the most unusual thing she'd heard "Obama!? Why!?" Then she's say isn't it strange nobody had heard of Obama before he ran for president? Oddly that seemed to work on a lot of people. Some phone bankers are so good!


    It looks (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:26 PM EST
    like they are going to ignore OR after WV. Seems that OR doesn't have enough white working class voters or somesuch. Edwards raised the stakes with his endorsement.

    Would another big Hillary win stop (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by kenosharick on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:19:29 PM EST
    the steady SD leak to Obama? I read an opinion piece that theorizes Obama's 1.5million donar list is held out as incentive to SD's. "endorse Obama and get the names on the list from the endorser's state/district" Really sounds like "new" politics to me.

    For Jeralyn (none / 0) (#81)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:29:06 PM EST
    Are the four former Governors of KY who endorsed Hillary today superdelegates?  Thanks.

    I'm not Jeralyn... (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by sweetthings on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:38:07 PM EST
    But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

    And no, they aren't.


    Patton may be....? (none / 0) (#230)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:29:37 AM EST
    Thought I heard that somewhere.

    Do we know where Brashear and Mongiardo are in all this?


    I hope Kentucky/SUSA is right (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Mrwirez on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:19:38 PM EST
    Go Hillary. She will win, but by how much? Does anyone think JE endorsement might have the reverse effect?? I do.
    HRC 08

    OT: It looks like John Edwards fired up his old E-mail address. He sent me one begging for cash. My response was same exact one Dick Cheney gave to Patrick Leahy  from the Senate floor. The man JUST said Friday he would not endorse until after all the votes were in. I see that as a Liebercrat moment. My e-mails must have went ignored for 3 months as I asked him to support HRC, for her health care plan.

    sorry...Was not quite finished with J edwards

    I don't think so (5.00 / 5) (#66)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:24:57 PM EST
    I was very concerned that all the bandwagon talk from the Obama campaign and newly aligned SDs was going to discourage West Viriginians from coming out to vote for Hillary, but I was wrong.  I'm hoping this latest development will also harden the resolve of Hillary supporters to make their wishes known via the ballot box.  

    Edwards: Just a typical politician. (none / 0) (#200)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:42:26 PM EST
    He ignored you for three months and now wants to talk to you for some money.

    How typically-politcally sleazy of him.


    Barack said he'd really buy him a jet ski. (none / 0) (#203)
    by soccermom on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:56:10 PM EST
    OT Jeralyn, but did you notice? (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:19:41 PM EST
    This question is for you Jeralyn.  I was wondering if you noticed how many times Edwards kept repeating that only "one man" could bring change, "one man" this "one man" that ???

    It was bizarre and unecessary to keep phrasing it that way?  Rubbing it in the face a litte?  I honestly am starting to wonder about possible deliberate sadism against Clinton and her supporters.

    I am just being honest and trying to comprehend this behavior from the Obama side and party leaders.  It has risen to the level where I really believe some of what they're doing to Hillary (including the booing) makes them feel better about themselves.  There is no logical and "good" explanation.  It is just destructive.  Just imo.

    One of Hillary's alleged weaknesses was (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Stellaaa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:08 PM EST
    lower income white men.  Maybe it was a dog whistle.  

    It was true at first... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by madamab on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:24:13 PM EST
    then they got to know her.

    Same phenomenon as upstate NY. They love her now but were skeptical when she first ran for the Senate.


    But... but Kennedy said.... (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:24:23 PM EST
    that he would appeal to nobler aspirations??  I'm confused.

    I think it will backfire so big (5.00 / 13) (#70)
    by Kathy on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:25:26 PM EST
    I've got a friend who has been staying above the fray on this, but the Edwards endorsement made her furious.  "Why couldn't he wait a freakin' month?" she kept demanding.   "Why try to humiliate her like this?"

    But, then, Obama has a history of pushing the wrong buttons, doesn't he?


    She's been gaining in that demo I thought? (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:01:45 PM EST
    that "one man" thing caused me to switch to the food network and order a new lens for my camera on Amazon. It should arrive in time for a well needed distraction in case things don't go as I want. And if things do go as I want, a celebration treat!

    Axelrod (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by bigbay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:08:34 AM EST
    is king of the dog whistle.

    I think that changed in Ohio. (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:22:19 PM EST
    That sounds right to me. (none / 0) (#77)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:27:11 PM EST
    I thought he kept repeating "one man" (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by oculus on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:21:36 PM EST
    because he couldn't say "one candidate" with a straight face.

    person... (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by kredwyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:25:08 PM EST
    he coulda said "one person."

    oh you think he was hedging? (none / 0) (#60)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:23:22 PM EST
    that is a very probable explanation.

    I still feel very uneasy about these latest developments.  But now back to Kentucky...
    I am not even sure if I want Clinton to win Kentucky now.  It will only mean another humiliating display by another Democratic "leader" endorsing the loser to stomp on Hillary's parade.


    Oh no, don't feel that way (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:26:19 PM EST
    That will still happen if she loses.  She may as well get another fun evening out of the deal.

    I do. (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:27:00 PM EST
    Every time Obama loses another primary it makes it obvious what the party might be trying to shove down our throats. And it helps prep his supporters for an eventual loss in Nov. should he be the nominee.

    I know what you mean (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:33:27 PM EST
    Every time Hillary does well I just feel worse because they are not going to let her be the nominee no matter how obvious it is that she is the right one for the job.

    I think I really hate politics.


    I noticed that (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by zyx on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:34:35 PM EST
    It was very strange.

    I took it the other way (none / 0) (#63)
    by ruffian on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:24:22 PM EST
    Like he was intentionally not saying that only one person could do all that - there is a woman that can do it too.

    hmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Monda on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:39:03 PM EST
    It reminds me of the Bible.  A little off topic but actually relevant to the topic.  The original new testament was written in Greek.  And in many cases the word "anthropos/anthropi" was used to say human being/mankind/person/persons, because the word in Greek in gender-neutral, like person.  But it was all lost "in translation" in the Middle Ages, and the word "man" was used instead; hence women discriminated and marginalized until 20th century (or even today as we can see) justified by "Bible's teaching".  
    An educated "person" like Edwards should know better than to speak that way.  Unless it was done on purpose.    

    I hope that's what it was (none / 0) (#65)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:24:56 PM EST
    One woman who can do it better (none / 0) (#217)
    by felizarte on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:19:51 AM EST
    Seeing what so-called leaders of the party are doing, I really wonder if the Democratic Party deserves an outstanding candidate like Hillary.

    I actually think it meant to be respectful of HRC (none / 0) (#78)
    by bird on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:27:40 PM EST
    By saying "one man" he left open the unsaid option of "and one women".

    You can call it double-speak, or political positioning, but I think he was trying to endorse without rubbing it in her face.

    JE is a class act.


    I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:33:43 PM EST
    Edwards has had many classless moments.  But he is supposed to be a working class hero... the narrative wins.

    Class Act?! That's not what I would call today. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by nycstray on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:03:42 PM EST
    He could have waited until Thursday and gotten the weekend news cycle. But I have to wonder if there might be a close race in OR playing into this . . .

    Actually...I think something else is going on... (none / 0) (#163)
    by cosbo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:23:15 PM EST
    If Edwards endorsement of Obama was tepid, then there might be another game afoot.

    My guess is that Clinton might end up winning the nomination based on her very strong argument of battleground states strength. That would probably create an uproar of some sort, I would think. If that pans out, I seriously doubt that Obama would accept the VP spot from Hillary. To unify the party, the next best thing would be to get a high profiler who endorsed Obama as her VP. Maybe he'd do it for the good of his country.

    My gut tells this endorsement is not what it seems to be.


    I hope you are right about this (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by angie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:32:35 PM EST
    the first part of the endorsement praised Hillary to the extend that I thought he was endorsing her. From your lips to God's ears.  

    I cannot think of another reason why he'd... (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by cosbo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:53:22 PM EST
    endorse at this particular point in time. Why not wait until there was a nominee and then try to unite the party. Why try to unite the party now. Does Edwards seriously believe that Clinton supporters are going to climb aboard with Obama NOW! I think he knows better so therefore something else drove this endorsement 3 weeks away from the end of all the primaries. I could be wrong, but I smell set up. I think the next 3 weeks might very very interesting in national politics.

    Hmmm (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by nell on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:01:29 PM EST
    your theory sounds far more interesting than mine, which is that Edwards voted for Obama and wants him to be the nominee...after all, this is the same guy who said Hillary is the status quo and the same guy who just last week had to be reminded by his wife that Obama is not the only historical candidate....Edwards got scared after he saw Barack get thumped in WV and he offered himself up to stop the media narrative that was starting. Given his comments in that people interview, I think he really buys into this media driven story of "How can you take this away from a black man" and he believes Barack will be the nominee, no matter what, and so he tried to help.

    I also think some of these boyz in the party, Edwards included, just do not understand how mad many Hillary supporters are not just at Obama and at the media, but also at them and how sick to death we are of their favoritism and continued silence in the face of sexism, not to mention the sexist attacks they themselves have made.

    I, for one, will not heal, I do not care to heal. I am mad as h**l and I wish to let the party know in November...I don't think Edwards understands people like me.


    I don't think Edwards is a fool.... (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by cosbo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:12:20 PM EST
    like most of us here, he knows looking at WV, PA, OH numbers what it will mean for the general. He knows. They all know, Take note that Edwards also reached out to McCain with his poverty plans. So he's aware that an Obama nomination likely means a McCain presidency.

    Again, my feeling is that there is deep plays happening and the nomination is still in flux. But we'll see.


    I am a man. (5.00 / 0) (#202)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:52:51 PM EST
    And I am pissed about all of this.
    Kos and Huffingtonpost have banned Hillary supporters.  They are ridiculed us, banned us, they still mock and demean us, and expect us to get on board with them afterwards.  That seems very elitist.  "We know what's good for you".  Ariana and Kos are the worse offenders of this crime.
    The pundits are just the same.  This "unity" talk is utter nonsense.  I will not be unifying with a candidate whom I do not trust to lead this country.

    i bet john heard got a version of just (none / 0) (#208)
    by hellothere on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:28:46 AM EST
    those thoughts when he got home tonight. hehehe

    I hope you are right. (none / 0) (#193)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:02:49 PM EST

    I Don't Know If Jeralyn Noticed (none / 0) (#112)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:49:10 PM EST
    but I sure did.

    So did Begala on CNN (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by Cream City on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:41:48 PM EST
    and called it out rather cleverly.  Campbell Brown nodded her head in sort of agreement, it seemed.

    Donna Brazile, of course, looked like her head was exploding.  But that seems to be her standard look lately.


    It went by me (none / 0) (#196)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:25:13 PM EST
    I do remember him saying "there is one man" -- I didn't think much about it at the time. I wouldn't parse his words too closely. I was wondering at the time whether the intensity of the crowd affected him, whether he was comparing it to the crowds when he ran, and feeling a bit sad  or wistful that he was getting this hero's reception not for his campaign but for a rival's.

    But, having been at his events in Iowa, particularly the John Mellencamp concert, I'd have to say he got just as much a hero's welcome there as Obama gets today, so maybe he wasn't thinking that.


    Paul Begala thought it was noteworthy (none / 0) (#199)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:31:54 PM EST
    Apparently he mentioned this "one man" thing on TV from what I've heard. (with Campbell Brown)

    Anyway, thanks for the response.


    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:25:02 PM EST
    what happens if this poll is the way it turns out? You said that Obama couldn't afford a 20 point blowout. What do we do then? Nominate Obama and concede the election to McCain?

    who is we? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:35:58 PM EST
    Democrats? bloggers? media?  I'm only concerned with what Hillary will do.  If she decides to fight for voters and for justice, she will take this to the convention.  If she takes it to the convention, then I think she can win the nomination.  But I also believe that there will be a "sit out" of many Obama voters in protest.

    We (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:45:46 PM EST
    as a party is what I'm saying. If these KY numbers hold up, we're going to knowingly nominate a candidate who will lose the general election. What kind of thinking is that for a party?

    Frankly, I think the party wants to lose.


    Hillary can still win (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by diplomatic on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:01:03 PM EST
    anybody saying otherwise is ignoring the actual rules.  Nobody is the nominee until the convention.   She is well within striking range.

    If you think like that we will ... (none / 0) (#86)
    by bird on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:33:11 PM EST
    I was/am willing to work 100% for HRC.  I hope you are real Dems, and not Young Republican trolls that wish for McCain so you can say "I told you so".

    Healing starts from within.


    Quit (5.00 / 9) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:43:44 PM EST
    with the healing stuff. Obama does not want to heal the party. He wants to destroy it. The day he is nominated I will become an independent. I don't like the way he is being shoved down our throats. I don't like the way he "assumes" I'll vote for him. I don't like his condescending attitude. After seeing him in action, I now understand why so many people think that Dems are elitists. And Michelle, well that's an entirely different story. She's got a boulder on her shoulder. Besides, I'm tired of being called a racist because I don't support Obama. Obama has burned his bridges.

    McCain is reaching out to voters like me. Obama is not. Obama's surrogates have said that they don't even want my vote. I think I'll oblige him on that account.


    I agree with you. (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by AX10 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:12:10 PM EST
    Obama is the kind of Democrat that allows the party's opponents to paint it as the "elitist" party.  McCain will moderate himself and shove the right wing aside in order to win the moderates.  It's the only way for a Republican to win in this enviroment.

    I posted this on another thread, in response (5.00 / 4) (#147)
    by Anne on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:09:21 PM EST
    to someone who was complaining about what s/he read as "trash-talk" that was going to kill our chance to beat McCain if we didn't start the healing :

    Obama can go first, how's that?

    It isn't the "trash-talk" that is hurting our chances of beating McCain - it's the freakin' Democratic Party "elders" and "leaders," who won't listen to the voters, have no earthly clue how to conduct a free and fair primary, would just as soon consign the voters of Michigan and Florida to the trash heap, have looked down their wrinkled-in-disgust noses at hard-working people who just want some freakin' representation, who are drunk on Obama money to the point where they make no sense, make me mad as hell and have me thoroughly disgusted with a party that I used to believe in.

    We are real dems, even if Barack Obama and his merry band of failed president wanna-be's would rather we be more like "their kind" of Democrat.

    So, lately, when I hear people talking about "healing," I want to respond exactly as I did to this other poster:

    Go peddle your Kumbayah garbage to them, will ya?  Better have your checkbook handy, though.

    Give me a break, please.


    hopefully the people will say (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Lisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:40:11 PM EST
    Who is John Edwards?

    Realize today that I'm learning (5.00 / 9) (#115)
    by suisser on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:50:22 PM EST
    a hell of a lot from HRC.  Watching her in W. VA I realize that I have never seen a person so tapped into their core energy, or inner power, or whatever you want to call it.  She is radiates a strength that blows my mind. With each slam to her candidacy, when I just think my head is going to explode, I am learning to take a deep breath and ask "What would Hilary do?"  
    She'll carry on and amaze all who watch.

    Just got back from KY GOTV training (5.00 / 11) (#126)
    by davnee on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:56:35 PM EST
    The crowd was out the door in HRC's Louisville office.  Lots of hooting and hollering about never giving up.  And a few unkind things said about Edwards and of course some hissing for the KY supers who have already endorsed BO.  Lots of beefing about FL & MI.  One woman went off about the Dems being the party of civil rights or so she thought.  Diverse crowd.  LOTS of older people.  My favorite moment was when this older woman came up to me at the end asking where the food sign-up sheet was.  She said Hillary's soldiers weren't going to go hungry on her watch.  Runner up moment was when everybody audibly gasped when they announced that Big Dawg was going to be in town tomorrow.  Everybody was yelling "where, where?"

    Interestingly, I live in probably one of the crunchiest granola neighborhoods in the state and the HRC signs match (and in recent weeks have started to exceed) the BO signs.  I can't see the margins trimmed much.  Edwards will be next to useless would be my guess (at least as to changing any votes).  It's going to be all about the psychological warfare of turnout.

    Great report. Thanks. (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by chancellor on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:17:48 PM EST
    so encouraging! (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Klio on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:40:15 PM EST
    I'm traveling to Bowling Green on Friday to gotv until Tuesday night.

    I admit, today's events were dispiriting.  Thanks for the lift!



    Don't lose spirit (5.00 / 4) (#189)
    by nell on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:56:33 PM EST
    I actually think the events today will cause her supporters to rally to her side. I don't think many people really care about the fact that Edwards endorsed Obama, I think what is really going to stick is what an obvious dick move it was, for lack of a better way to describe it. He wanted to rain on her parade, and he did. Fine. Now a whole lot of people think John Edwards is not such a nice guy. As for NARAL, I cannot even imagine what on earth they were thinking. They may have gained political favor with him if he is the nominee, but they have basically shut themselves out from every other major women's group, not to mention pro-choice lawmakers. Who will trust them now? Not to mention the fact that they angered a huge portion of their base, if the comments on their blog are any indication.

    In my view, now even if the pundits keep telling us how bad the math looks, people will want to stick up for her...


    agree (none / 0) (#215)
    by bigbay on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:13:26 AM EST
    plus, the idea that people in Kentucky care about John Edwards is laughable. He has won, I believe, exactly 2 primaries in two tries as a presidential candidate.

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#166)
    by nell on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:25:53 PM EST
    I feel like you live pretty close to my sister in KY. She was at an event with James Rubin tonight and she LOVES, LOVES, LOVES him now. I haven't spoken to her too much about what it is looking like on the ground, but I hope you are right about the enthusiasm in Louisville.

    I am not sure if you can answer this demographic question, or if anyone else can, but what do we expect the turnout to look like? I know the proportion of African Americans in the state is low, but I wonder if we will see a surprisingly high turnout, as we did in Indiana, that will narrow the margins. In Indiana the polling looked good for HRC with 11 percent African American turnout (and I believe in the overall population, African Americans account for 8-9 percent in IN), but in reality, the African American turnout was 15-17 percent. Of course, the bigger turnout of any group, the better for democracy, and anyone and everyone who is registered should get out and vote no matter who they support. But I am just curious about whether the correct turnout model is being used...


    RCP Jay Cost (none / 0) (#178)
    by waldenpond on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:37:34 PM EST
    His worksheet projects 559,000 for KY.  He projected 306,000 for WV and the actual was 330,000.  OR he projects 740,000.

    Horserace.  Change the numbers and make your own projections....


    Kentucky's demos (none / 0) (#231)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:36:41 AM EST
    are insanely Hillary-friendly.  Only two largish cities in the state, Louisville & Lexington (well, and a lot of the Cincy suburbs), and there aren't huge latte-liberal communities in either of them.  Lex is a college town, but even it probably isn't going to take on much Obama flavoring.

    I just can't see voters in Muehlenberg, Trigg, Lyon, etc. counties voting Obama in any serious numbers.  Hillary is gonna blow off the doors, and I for one am gonna be happy as hell to be there Tuesday for a rip-stomping victory par-tay!!


    predictions? (5.00 / 6) (#143)
    by BellinKY on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:05:41 PM EST
    I live in KY and I can make on prediction:these damned obama commercial are really grating on my nerves, I am ready to throw my TV out the window(except the thing is to expensive). And if only half the people in KY are as fed up with this nonstop "I am Barrack Obama and I approved this message" (or is it misinformation, because it's mostly the I don't take money from lobbyists ad)than Mrs. Clinton will really have a blowout win.

    an O! supporter (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by jen on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:27:25 PM EST
    that posts at Clark's blog sez they're going all out in KY. Money, ads, volunteers, offices, brochures, surrogates galore, etc. Said they were barely even asked to phone bank in WV, knew they'd lose, and set up the scenario so that as soon as it was over, they changed the narrative w/ JE's endorsement.

    He's definitely going after the evangelical vote there in a big way, too. Ugh.

    Think of it this way: (none / 0) (#207)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:08:28 AM EST
    He knows that to lose by 30+ points in KY next week can't be brushed off his shoulder or wiped off his shoe. But unlike his six-week effort before PA, he's now got a mere 5 days to close the gaping margin in KY.

    Word (5.00 / 6) (#170)
    by sas on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:29:04 PM EST
    on some blogs that there has been so much emphasis on blacks as a bloc, perhaps not supporting Hillary, that there will be a huge bloc of women walking out of the convention, protesting the treatment of Hillary.

    Now wouldn't that be something?

    I'll be one of 'em n/t (none / 0) (#232)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:37:44 AM EST
    waste of bandwith n/t (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by angie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:30:02 PM EST

    I deleted that comment (none / 0) (#198)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:27:43 PM EST
    you are talking about.

    tell Obama to withdraw & we'll make nice (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by Josey on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:30:48 PM EST

    What it will take (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by barryluda on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:58:04 PM EST
    I think Clinton will win huge in KY but it's not enough.  To change the Super Delegate momentum what needs to happen is that both MI and FL need to be resolved in Clinton's favor (possible but not certain -- even as an Obama supporter, I sure hope this happens soon!).  Even that's not enough.  I think Clinton has to unexpectedly win one of these last races against Obama that everyone expects she'll lose, or Obama has to do something (or have something happen to or revealed about him) that's both NEW and that makes it obvious that he can't beat McCain.

    On this last point, what matters is the perception of the Super Delegates. Since they have not yet started switching and committing to Clinton, then there's not yet a "beyond a reasonable doubt" type of issue against Obama. If there is such an issue, I sure hope it comes out soon and not after Obama's nominated.

    If Clinton and Obama win and lose all of the states left according to what's predicted (even if Clinton wins "hers" by huge margins) then I suspect the Supers will end up going with Obama and he'll get over 2,209 (minus any delegates taken away as part of the MI / FL resolution) before the convention.  Sure, Super Delegates can change their votes up until the convention, but at that point -- although I'm not advocating it -- I do think Clinton would concede.

    Here's your problem (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:43:45 AM EST
    Obama is going to be politically radioactive in A LOT of states (Missouri, Ohio, Tennessee, etc.)  He's not going to automatically pick up supers in many of them because these people have their own political futures to consider.  Do they really want to go on record as having supported a guy with such poor judgment (Wrightgate, his having admitted doing drugs, his wife's serious attitude problem)...I strongly suspect more of them will go along with the direction their states and districts voted than has been assumed by many.

    Furthermore, Dems in states like Kansas, where Hillary has no chance but Obama's chances are -1000%, won't want to tie themselves to Mr. Liberal, either.  I think Obama's supporters have assumed a lot more support than they're likely to get right out of the gate on the part of the supers.

    Otherwise, why the big endorsement push?  I suspect they're starting to panic that they're not attracting more supers as a bloc, honestly.  Hell, these people can read - furthermore, they know their own states, and they know Obama can't win most of them.  The numbers are just not there for him, and he's made too many arrogant and stupid mistakes.


    This is pretty good: (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:39:39 AM EST
    David "Mudcat" Saunders, a chief adviser for Edwards on rural affairs during the presidential campaign, said the endorsement should take some sting out of Obama's resounding loss in West Virginia.

    "For Barack Obama, I think he ought to kiss Johnny Edwards on the lips to kill this 41-point loss," Saunders said.

    KY and WV (1.00 / 2) (#133)
    by uncledad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 09:59:10 PM EST
    "Add a shot of whiskey and a pinch of tobacco and, politically, Kentucky is a lot like neighboring West Virginia -- Clinton country.
    Both states are overwhelmingly white, largely rural and have a greater share of residents below the poverty line and without college degrees than the nation as whole."

    Ahh yes Clinton country: uneducated rual white folks that will never vote for a liberal woman in the general election, lets get real here. Rual whites have been voting against liberals for the last 25 years, and they aint gonna start now.

    That's the spirit (5.00 / 6) (#136)
    by Steve M on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:01:21 PM EST
    Bask in your superiority to those clueless rubes.  Doesn't it make you feel better?

    The creative class we can do without. (none / 0) (#210)
    by AX10 on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:38:42 AM EST
    We cannot do without the other 98% of the electorate.

    Um, they already have. That's what's (5.00 / 6) (#139)
    by MarkL on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:01:53 PM EST
    so remarkable about Hillary's appeal.

    Bill Clinton carried WV, KY, OH, PA, TN (5.00 / 5) (#144)
    by Lisa on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:05:48 PM EST
    1992 & 1996

    1992 & 1996 (none / 0) (#150)
    by uncledad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:14:22 PM EST
    Whoever said Bill Clinton was a liberal? He was the best "republican" president we ever had, but he aint no liberal!

    Digby's line. (none / 0) (#157)
    by masslib on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:18:15 PM EST
    Extremely inaccurate.

    I don't agree with that (5.00 / 4) (#145)
    by Monda on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:09:14 PM EST
    Excuse me but facts are facts.   Bill Clinton won West Virginia in 1996.  
    And enough with the "rural voters don't vote liberals" etc.  You need to broaden the coalition not marginalized it. While Clinton did not win them 50% plus, he won enough from them to carry him through two victories.  It was Kerry and Gore (and Obama) who don't get them, hence they lost/lose.  

    Bill Clinton won West Virginia in 1996. (1.00 / 1) (#153)
    by uncledad on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:15:24 PM EST
    Bill Clinton is not a liberal.

    Not a "Liberal" (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by cdalygo on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:18:41 PM EST
    Yeah but he did more for working people than the Republicans with whom you lump him.

    If I remember correctly too, Liberals haven't elected a president in decades (if ever).

    I'll take someone who delivers over a political purity test any day of the week.


    The saddest thing about your post (5.00 / 9) (#169)
    by angie on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:28:44 PM EST
    is that you probably think Obama is a liberal. For your information, liberals do not go around voting against consumers (as Obama did when he voted against the credit card interest rate cap). Liberals do not have to be talked out of voting for Roberts for USSC CJ (as Obama was). Liberals do not go around waxing poetic for the days of Reagan (as Obama does). Liberals do not attack Dems. on UHC (as Obama does). Liberals do not talk about how pro-choicers just don't understand the "wrenching moral decision" entailed in abortions (as Obama does). Liberals do not address females "sweetie" (as Obama does). Jeez Louise, this is just off of the top of my head -- I assure you, that Obama is no liberal.

    Hillary would have a shot in TN (none / 0) (#235)
    by Eleanor A on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:47:57 AM EST
    Absolutely.  Gore lost here because he totally took things for granted & didn't campaign.  I suspect HRC would learn from his mistake.

    A lot of people in this part of the country remember Clinton 1.  They were making money, their investments weren't tanking, they weren't stuck with real estate they couldn't sell.  Hell, Hillary would have a lot more than a shot in many of the borderline southern states, and we as a party are going to pay heavily for letting Obamites besmirch the memory of best President in the last 30 years.


    who you calling uneducated? (5.00 / 7) (#146)
    by BellinKY on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:09:20 PM EST
    I most definetly have more education than most and I live in KY. Be careful who you stereotype.

    Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:14:30 PM EST
    in the primary last night in West Virginia got 72% of the vote that Bill Clinton won the general election with in the state in 1992.

    Never vote for a woman in the general...honestly don't think so.


    Odd, they keep coming out and voting for her. (5.00 / 8) (#155)
    by masslib on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:17:11 PM EST
    Attitudes Like Yours Is Exactly The Reason (5.00 / 6) (#161)
    by MO Blue on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:21:14 PM EST
    Dems keep losing the WH.

    Does looking down your nose at other people make you feel better about yourself?  


    I would be appeased (none / 0) (#173)
    by nellre on Wed May 14, 2008 at 10:30:47 PM EST
    If Hillary was put on the supreme court.

    Supreme court? okay! (none / 0) (#206)
    by iago on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:03:35 AM EST
    Wanna cookie too? Perhaps someone can read you a story before beddie bye.

    Jeeez people she lost*. If she were to bow out gracefully she might have gotten something, doubt supreme court but maybe a cabinet position. As it is she's riding this ship to the bottom and will just get to be the junior senator from NY. Heck much of her influence came from the expectation that she'd be the nominee, without that she'll be much diminished in the senate.

    *There are no reasonable mathematics which give her the nomination. However if you think you have one please post it and I'll be happy to read it.


    Creative Class? (none / 0) (#205)
    by thentro on Wed May 14, 2008 at 11:58:34 PM EST
    Here is a question for everyone. It has been said here many times here that "demographics are destiny" and thus Hillary will be able to win in the general because of the greater strength of her demographic. But isn't Hillary in great danger of losing as many "creative class" voters, and black voters, come November? Or at least, not getting the kind of numbers she needs to win?

     It's the catch-22 of this race I think. Some kind of truce will be key.

    Bonus question. Can some one describe "creative class"  and why it became a cuss word? It is starting to sound more like "red neck" every day.


    Wikipedia has an article about (none / 0) (#211)
    by oculus on Thu May 15, 2008 at 12:39:02 AM EST
    "Creative Class,"  but I have no idea if this is the accepted definition.

    Recent polls:70-79% AAs say will vote for Hillary (none / 0) (#220)
    by itsadryheat on Thu May 15, 2008 at 01:29:50 AM EST
    If she becomes the Democratic choice.

    Comments Now Closed (none / 0) (#236)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 15, 2008 at 02:49:50 AM EST