home

Saturday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:10:01 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

I'll be out and about today. If you've got something to talk about, here's a place. Please be civil.

< The Top Ten Myths of Jury Trials | Hillary and the Bachtel Medical Story >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Saturday Open Thread | 65 comments (65 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    Just have to say, (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:17:58 PM EST
    as a longtime reader, that I was unable to comment on Jeralyn's "methodology" in her recent post on popular vote counts, because I was reduced to staring in slack-jawed amazement. I understand you're an advocate by training and vocation, and that's what you're doing now for Hillary Clinton. But you have to know this kind of...stuff is going to affect your credibility with some people, long after November. At least it will, with this person.

    Your dispute is with super-delegates (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:26:27 PM EST
    who are counting the popular vote just that way -- I read of one recently saying so.

    You can't refute that there are many ways to count the popular vote this year, because of the DNC and the Obama campaign (exploiting that the DNC let so many states set up caucuses and that the DNC screwed up how to handle FL and MI).  

    You count them differently, that's all.  Not that it matters how you or Jeralyn or I count the popular vote.  It's how super-d's do so, so talk to yours.  

    Parent

    I had the same reaction (none / 0) (#18)
    by fuzzyone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:51:19 PM EST
    The idea that the votes of 40 states is some reasonable metric to use makes no sense to me.  More importantly it does not seem likely to convince many superdelegates.  

    I have not seen the Clinton campaign make the argument which is smart. If you think not seating MI and FL will piss off those states how do you think the caucus states will feel if the SDs base their decision on a popular vote that excludes them.  

    The bottom line is that popular vote does not count at all.  The only way to use it is as a persuasive device and the count that Jeralyn used does not strike me as at all persuasive.

    Parent

    What poll (none / 0) (#37)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:20:15 PM EST
    and where is the link? All poll are different and we need to know which one you are referring.

    Parent
    Obama and MLK 40th anniversay (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Saul on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:20:15 PM EST
    I think it was a mistake for Obama not to attend the Memphis anniversary of MLK assassination .  He also did not show up in New Orleans which was another previous black function on Katrina.  However, Hilary went to both of them.  Does he feel he got the AA vote so secure that he can ignore these important functions.

    I agree with you... (none / 0) (#5)
    by proseandpromise on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:24:50 PM EST
    Obama should have gone to Memphis.  But I think the reason probably wasn't the AA vote.  I think he probably is focused on catching up in PA and IN.  Clinton can get around a little more because she's got a solid lead on the ground.  Obama is campaigning hard to narrow gaps in those states.  Still a mistake though.

    Parent
    So - (none / 0) (#16)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:47:39 PM EST
    campaigning was more important to Obama than appearing in Memphis to commemorate the 40 year anniversary of King's death??
    I don't see how that's a viable excuse.


    Parent
    He doesn't need an excuse (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    Who is criticizing him for not being there, other than people trying to make political points off of it?

    Parent
    most criticism seems to be (none / 0) (#31)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:11:37 PM EST
    from Obama supporters who think Obama should have been in Memphis rather than Indiana.


    Parent
    MLK (none / 0) (#34)
    by 1jane on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    Senator Obama spoke at King's Church earlier, and personally talked with the King family yesterday. Some would say he didn't need to appear in Memphis because he has and is continuing MLK's work. McCain and Clinton have to prove their credentials.

    Parent
    In what way is Obama continuing (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:17:31 PM EST
    Martin Luther King, Jr.'s work?

    Parent
    Didn't you know? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kayla on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:02:03 PM EST
    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. wanted a black person to be president more than anything in the world.

    (To be honest, I think King would be happy to see a woman as president, too.  Or see John Edwards working towards ending poverty.  But that's just me.)

    Parent

    I anticipated the reply would include (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:16:06 PM EST
    a reference to Obama's speech after his relationship w/The Rev. Wright was subject to media attention.  

    Parent
    1jane, what has Obama done (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:21:58 PM EST
    for civil rights -- specific laws, etc.? You clearly do not know all that Clinton has done for civil rights, starting in her college days -- but you also clearly don't want to know, so we won't bother with you on this.

    Parent
    WTF? (none / 0) (#38)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:23:31 PM EST
    McCAIN has to prove his credentials.  Clinton does not.  How you can lump the two of them together is beyond me.

    Parent
    1jane's comment was qiote non-sentient :-) (3.00 / 2) (#56)
    by RalphB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:06:44 PM EST
    oh and Obama so far is about as far from continuing the work of MLK as McCain.

    Parent
    This is way too easy (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:36:01 PM EST
    Does he feel he got the AA vote so secure that he can ignore these important functions.

    Yes

    On the other hand, he will probably show up for the next big white people event.  Wow - is the Indiana primary before or after the Indy 500?  Genius!!!

    Parent

    Aw, the unspoken analogy (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:41:21 PM EST
    Jessie has the appearance and I say appearance of a angry AA man who shows up at injustices to the AA person. Someone needs to but when you see Jessie, you are reminded of the angry AA man and if you are BHO, that is not the person you want to be standing next to. The AA community already loves BHO and I believe he does not want other people to see him as a Civil Rights crusader being his #1 goal while we have so many other issues that need to be taken care of right now. If Hillary and McCain can be there, then he should have been there too. Just like not having committee meetings and showing up to vote. He was out campaigning. Right. There are certain things you do to show respect. BHO chose to not attend. I understand why but I think it was the wrong choice. He can not have it both ways and he is trying to.

    Parent
    Many blacks who support him (none / 0) (#30)
    by Saul on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:10:59 PM EST
    are criticizing him for not showing up.  It was a matter of showing respect for MLK not a vote getter function attempt by any of the other candidates.  

    Parent
    OK, I have not seen this (none / 0) (#40)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:30:58 PM EST
    and I'm certainly not going to tell someone how they ought to feel about it if they were offended.

    I stand corrected.

    Parent

    Not going to Memphis was gold (none / 0) (#54)
    by Joan in VA on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:42:10 PM EST
    for him yesterday. CNN showed his campaigning juxtaposed with Bobby Kennedy campaigning on the day of MLK's death. Bobby announced his death to his supporters. Then they showed O with his supporters. It almost seemed coordinated between CNN and O's campaign. O was shown as the modern day Bobby. Coincidence?

    Parent
    No comparison (none / 0) (#69)
    by Saul on Mon Apr 07, 2008 at 08:04:11 AM EST
    I lived through all the assassinations .  John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy to include Martin's death.  Obama might be charismatic and can give flowery speeches but he does not even come close to any of these bigger than history icons.

    Parent
    I was listening to Bloomberg radio news this (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by tigercourse on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:23:30 PM EST
    morning. They had an interview with Bayh, and then  bunch of pundits. They asked the pundits who a good VP for Obama would be. Margaret Carlson (I think) said a great choice would be George Mitchell, former Senate Majority leaded, because he would bring "gravitas". Either she's a fool, or she wants the Democrats to lose badly (possibly both). Mitchell is 3 years older then McCain and has Prostate Cancer. He hasn't been in office in 14 years, he is from a small state and hardly seems like a top notch campaigner.

    He would be a terrible choice. The other name I heard mentioned was Joe Lieberman. I don't know what else was said because I punched my car radio. Never, ever listen to "pundits".

    We are talking about THE Margaret Carlson, right? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:31:16 PM EST
    She's a fool

    Parent
    A good VP choice for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Manuel on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:36:58 PM EST
    would be Ed Rendell assuming Hillary doesn't take it.  For party unity he needs to pick someone from the Clinton camp.  Rendell has been a loyal and effective Clinton supporter.  I am biased but I think he has consistently gotten the best of the Obama surrogates on the news programs.  Throw in PA being a key state and his executive experience and this would be a good choice.


    Parent
    But Obamans already called Rendell (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:24:08 PM EST
    a racist last week for something he said, so there goes another Dem leader -- along with our best, Bill and Hillary Clinton -- who can't campaign for Obama, if he's the nominee. More reason why he ought not be.

    Parent
    He's been great for Clinton (none / 0) (#14)
    by magster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:44:12 PM EST
    while being gracious to Obama.  That would be a good choice for Obama.

    Parent
    The problem with Ed is that he doesn't (none / 0) (#15)
    by tigercourse on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:47:01 PM EST
    help Obama at all with foreign policy or defense. He's got alot of domestic experince, but nothing that can counter McCain. But you are right, he would help retain Pennsylvania, a weak state for Obama and one we can't afford to lose.

    Parent
    Was Joe Lieberman mentioned (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    as McCain's running mate?  That would make sense, and would not surprise me at all.   Anyone but MCCain would feel obligated to pick someone that was good for the future of the Republican party.  McCain, however, having gotten what he wanted out of them, is likely not to care much about that.

    Parent
    I think they said that he would be a good (none / 0) (#17)
    by tigercourse on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:48:17 PM EST
    running mate for either one. As someone who remembers 2000, I strongly disagree.

    Parent
    Me Too! (none / 0) (#22)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    McCain obviously likes Lieberman personally, but I doubt the serious thinkers in his campaign are considering Lieberman as VP material.

    And Lieberman has endorsed McCain - how can he be a Democratic VP candidate?  That is just insane.

    Parent

    Daydream (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:32:19 PM EST
    Wouldn't it be wonderful for our country if McCain decided to turn his party back towards the center and picked Christine Todd Whitman as his VP?  

    A girl can dream....

    Parent

    The Generation Gap (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Manuel on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    I found this column by Ellen Goodman in yesterday's Seattle Times interesting.

    The last time we had such a generational divide in the Democratic Party was 1972.  I was on the side of the new generation for that one.  Will we be able to unite the party this time?

    Perhaps it's generally true (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by stillife on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:24:57 PM EST
    but it doesn't apply in my life.  I realize this is purely anecdotal, but my 82-year-old mother is an Obama supporter.  I know quite a few young people (under 25) who support Hillary, both male and female.  That said, I do read comments from young people who say that everybody they know at college is supporting Obama.  It's like he's the cool new brand.  

    Unlike 1972, which was about the Vietnam War, I don't think the 2008 Democratic primary elections are about ideology, unless vague promises of hope and change can be considered ideology.  

    I was 17 in 1972, too young to vote, but old enough to be politically aware.  There was a real generation gap back then.  We thought we could change the world, which didn't work out too well for us in 1968 or 1972.  The millenium generation or whatever it's called, is a generation which doesn't really have a defining issue.  It's best summed up by the Le Tigre song "Get Off the Internet" or Stephen Colbert's scathing commentary on the "Don't Tase Me, Bro" incident (don't get involved, but record it on your cellphone).

    I've discussed this often with my 18-year-old daughter who is envious of those of us who lived through the 60's when young people actually took to the streets and protested.  IMO, the Obama movement is more about trendiness and an Obama button is the ultimate hipster accessory.  It's revolution-lite.

    Parent

    I was discussing this recently (none / 0) (#55)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:03:49 PM EST
    with a friend who kept asking why people are not en masse protesting the war in Iraq.  I said I figured that it is basically understood that nothing will change until Bush is voted out (Cheney:  "So?" didn't really create a lot of uproar).  I also said our goals are unclear and not exactly agreed upon.  Americans seem anxious that a withdrawal is well-planned.  Responsible withdrawal inspires more thinking than marching.

    My own stance is I am willing to give any Democratic president time to get the ball rolling.  But if in a few years we are still in Iraq, we still don't have universal healthcare, and the government lets companies shaft us with impunity, then I think we might have more people on their feet.

    That said, the college kids who marched down the highway for 7 miles in Texas to get to their polling place were amazing.

    Parent

    When students ask me about marching (none / 0) (#62)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:27:58 PM EST
    against the Viet Nam War, I do have to remind them that it was a thirty years' war -- the first U.S. military death there was in 1945 -- and that we didn't start protesting 'til twenty years later. And then I tell them to just be ready to protest the Iraq War in 2023, when their sons and daughters are still being sent there. That gets 'em thinking. As does the realization that the Viet Nam War did not end for another decade after we started protesting.

    Parent
    Thanks. I've always enjoyed Goodman's (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:36:12 PM EST
    writing.

    Parent
    Unlink Popular Vote from Delegate Counts (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Athena on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:33:23 PM EST
    Why must these be linked?  Even if MI and FL don't get delegates - why is Clinton denied the votes she got?

    By my calculations, Clinton is being denied 1,185,359 of her votes (about 1.2 million) - now deducted from her popular vote total.

    Give Clinton her actual human votes.  They are manifestly real, even if they don't translate into delegate representation.

    She is clearly ahead in the votes cast so far.

    I agree that makes no sense. (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by eleanora on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    People in two states voted for her, for Obama, for Edwards and the others. All of those votes exist in reality and should be attributed to their proper candidates, no matter what the DNC does with the delegates. Sometimes I feel like we're in crazyland, "Quick, throw a bedspread over those votes and maybe no one will notice them!"

    Parent
    Another April Anniversary (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:48:33 PM EST
    Apr 19 will be the 13th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing. I happened to be in OKC for work that whole spring, and saw firsthand the damage done to that friendly and hospitable community. After the first raw emotions wore off, my thoughts were that this must be a little small taste of what it would be like to live someplace like Sarajevo.  It was so easy for McVeigh to do this - it could easily happen every day in some city in America.

    I bring it up in conjunction with the anniversary of MLK's assassination because I believe that it is because of the heroism of MLK and other non-violent leaders that more American cities do not look like OKC did on that day.

    That is why, although it is easy to ascribe political purposes to Clinton's visit to Memphis (so easy that I did it myself), we do not acknowledge often enough that white people in America owe a huge debt to MLK.  I know plenty of people who write off his birthday and the anniversary of his death as events only important to African-Americans, and I think white Americans need to nip that attitude in the bud whenever possible.

    Not sure I have any particular point beyond that. Just feeling philosophical on a rainy day.

    Does anyone know the debate (none / 0) (#1)
    by Teresa on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:17:01 PM EST
    schedule? Are there going to be three? One in PA, one in NC and one in IN? I've been buried in basketball and limiting my cable viewing so I need to catch up.

    Obama supporters are all hyped up (none / 0) (#20)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:55:53 PM EST
    about Hillary "lying" about a woman denied hospital care.
    But nothing from Obama supporters about Obama creating a false narrative of his father's connection to the Kennedys.
    And Obama seems to use the Civil Rights movement when it's convenient, but couldn't even attend the MLK event yesterday.

    >>>Contrary to Obama's claims in speeches in January at American University and in Selma last year, the Kennedy family did not provide the funding for a September 1959 airlift of 81 Kenyan students to the United States that included Obama's father....
    In his speech commemorating the 42nd anniversary of the Selma civil rights march, Sen. Obama linked his father's arrival in the United States with the turmoil of the civil rights movement. Although the airlift occurred before John F. Kennedy became president, Obama said that "folks in the White House" around President Kennedy were looking for ways to counter charges of hypocrisy and "win hearts and minds all across the world" at a time when America was "battling communism."

    "So the Kennedys decided 'we're going to do an airlift,' " Obama continued. " 'We're going to go to Africa and start bringing young Africans over to this country and give them scholarships to study so they can learn what a wonderful country America is.' This young man named Barack Obama got one of those tickets and came over to this country. He met this woman whose great-great-great-great-grandfather had owned slaves. . . . So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born."

    WaPo, March 30, 2008

    After Tuzla hype (none / 0) (#29)
    by magster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:09:38 PM EST
    there is zero excuse for Clinton to not vet these anecdotes a little more.  Deserved or not, Clinton's got the spotlight on her on the issue of truthiness from Tuzla, and she should have been more careful on this (especially when there's no shortage of real health care horror stories).

    Parent
    but my point is - (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:19:01 PM EST
    there is no spotlight on Obama's lies.
    What did Hillary gain by embellishing Tuzla? nothing
    What did Obama gain by weaving a false narrative about his father and the Kennedys?  the Kennedy endorsement

    After his initial lies about Rezko, Obama really should vet his narratives a little more.


    Parent

    I understand your point (none / 0) (#41)
    by magster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:32:07 PM EST
    "But the he did it too" defense sounds weak.

    Parent
    On it's own, yes (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:04:30 PM EST
    But "he does it too" AND "they'll start in on him too in the general election."

    Might be more formidable.

    And then when you add even another component.

    1.  he does it too.

    2.  they'll start in on him in the general election.

    3.  And there will be no defense because it was already established as a legitimate attack by Obama himself in the primary.

    Then everyone gets to decide for themselves if the answer is still weak.


    Parent

    Kennedy's don't know their own history (none / 0) (#42)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:33:55 PM EST
    It would have been funny if Obama had tried to tell Ted that story and Ted had said, "uh, Barack, that was Eisenhower."

    Parent
    we can also assume the Kennedys (none / 0) (#45)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:07:23 PM EST
    are aware of google but chose not to access it to verify Obama's claims.
    Makes the Kennedys appear as opportunistic as Obama - parading their candidate into the Dem establishment.

    Parent
    Magster, read the link first (none / 0) (#63)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:30:03 PM EST
    and see that Obamans are talking about a woman and a hospital that Clinton did not name, so how could she be responsible for vetting a story about someone that she didn't talk about?

    Parent
    The more people talk (none / 0) (#65)
    by Fabian on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 07:51:28 AM EST
    the more I realize that we know almost nothing about Trina Bachtel's medical care.

    She was admitted to O'Bleness Memorial and delivered a still born babe.
    She was airlifted to Columbus and later died there.

    Various parties claim she did or did not have prenatal care.  They claim she was or was not refused care.  We have proof of none of this.

    Teh Narrative is "Clinton Lied".  The reality is that we don't know what the truth is or who is telling it.

    I find the story interesting because of what it may say about the relationship of the insured and uninsured and their access to actual health care.  I'm hoping real journalism will find out more facts, but right now it's mostly rumor and innuendo.

    Parent

    Why can't the Caucus states be counted? (none / 0) (#24)
    by eleanora on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:01:48 PM EST
    Real people voted in each of those contests as well and their votes should be attributed to their proper candidates. I know some states haven't released caucus vote totals as yet, but they must have them or else how would they know who caucused for which candidate enough to allot delegates?

    Um, this was a reply (none / 0) (#46)
    by eleanora on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:18:32 PM EST
    to someone saying caucus states shouldn't be left out of the vote count. IDK where the original comment went :(

    Parent
    Obama admitted choosing campaigning (none / 0) (#25)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:03:43 PM EST
    over the MLK event.
    imho -Obama has the AA vote sewn up. That's not even an issue.

    Has Clinton ever been there before? (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:12:01 PM EST
    I don't think it is cynical to think that politicians are politicians.  It does not mean her reactions and words there were not sincere. But in a tough campaign with severe time constraints, they go where they think they can do themselves the most good.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that, on anyone's part.  

    Is anyone listening (none / 0) (#33)
    by suisser on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:13:17 PM EST
    to "On the Media" Public Radio, right now?
    As the BURY Hillary???

    The softening of support (none / 0) (#44)
    by Arcadianwind on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:44:59 PM EST
    for "the Changeling" is heartening to see, for many of us. He has a very tough row to hoe from here on out. Assuming the Obama camp doesn't grab Dems for a day-repubs en mass in PA, it will be a 13 point loss, or more.

    For those feeling a bit low right now, maybe needing a little inspiration, check out the Jan. 3, 1993 NFL game between Houston and Buffalo. I'm not big on sports metaphors, but this was a truly inspirational game. It was 35 to 3, Houston on top in the third quarter. Warren Moon was QB for the Oilers, and Frank Reich for the Bills. I won't give the final score, in case anybody wants to watch it and not already know the ending, but it was the greatest comeback in NFL history. Maybe it's out there somewhere on DVD or in the archives?

    Anyway, it's interesting that the look on Obama's face lately is the same look on Warren Moon's face in the forth Quarter of that game!

    Obama's cousin (none / 0) (#47)
    by TalkRight on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:20:32 PM EST
    Obama always brings up this fact again and again, and I just heard today again, on ballot bowl, in North Dakota .. "we will be happy Bush and my cousin won't be on ballot this Nov..."

    Now I get it why he voted for Cheney's Oil Bill!! That one for you my cousin.!!

    Richardson's reason.. Obama should endorse Clinton (none / 0) (#48)
    by TalkRight on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:25:17 PM EST
    I was looking into an old clips of Richardson who while trying to come up with a reason for his endorsement would always bringing up the fact that Obama helped him during the debate because he gave him a clue to the topic being asked... by that reason, Obama should endorse Clinton, because she not only gave clue's as to what the topic was being asked but would give him the full answer... all he had to do was say... ditto!!

    In case you were wondering, Mimi (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:31:49 PM EST
    yet again died at the conclusion of La Boheme, today's Met broadcast.  

    I have a question for this community. (none / 0) (#58)
    by halstoon on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:52:33 PM EST
    What is the general attitude toward the Courts' declaration that home schooling is essentially illegal in California? The news makes it out that this is a Democratic position, but I cannot imagine how so.

    Are you all--the TL community--supportive of this ruling?

    Humorous, but sad. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:54:32 PM EST
    For "churches" that use coercive tactics, one study found that that people had their personality types changed by their participation.

    There was a clear pattern of changing from introversion to extraversion, from intuition to sensing, from thinking to feeling, and from perceiving to judging.

    So....
    Introverson  >  Extroversion
    Intuition        >  Sensing
    Thinking     =>  Feeling
    Perceiving   =>  Judging

    This is accomplished by immersing people in small groups called "cells" ostensibly for Bible study, but in reality for a Leader led lecture.  Participants are regular, often daily contact with their leader.

    No one says that people can't do these things voluntarily....

    Clinton reaffirms gay rights stand to Ellen (none / 0) (#64)
    by Cream City on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 08:22:17 PM EST
    DeGeneres on her show airing Monday: Clinton pledges her support of gay rights Democratic Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton told Ellen DeGeneres that she will work to ensure that same-sex couples such as the talk show host and her partner, Portia de Rossi, are treated fairly. "I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that people like you and Portia and others have a chance to have, you know, rights to be able to go to the hospital, to inherit property, to make sure that you can list somebody as a beneficiary on an insurance policy," Clinton said in an interview to air Monday on "The Ellen DeGeneres Show." "That's all we want is to be fair," DeGeneres responded. "I like it. I like it." Clinton has said she would defend gay rights as president and eliminate disparities for same-sex couples in federal law, including immigration and tax policy.

    Obama's Image (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:18:40 AM EST
    Here is an interesting report on deconstructs Obama's image and subsequent appeal. Both McCain and CLinton are steeped in modernism, while Obama has gone PoMo. That explains his appeal to the younger set and others who have rejected modernism.

    Link (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 11:20:06 AM EST
    IHT

    Parent
    Fourth Amendment Protection (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 12:37:44 PM EST
    And the collection of discarded DNA without a warrant for use in criminal databases seem really wrong.

    The privacy implications of surreptitious DNA sampling may extend beyond individual investigations. The police could collect DNA deemed "abandoned" from targeted individuals and monitor their movements even if they are not suspected of committing a serious crime. Innocent people whose DNA turns up unexpectedly may find themselves identified by a database file that they did not know existed.

    "Police can take a DNA sample from anyone, anytime, for any reason without raising oversight by any court," said Elizabeth Joh, a law professor at University of California, Davis, who studies the intersection of genetics and privacy law. "I don't think a lot of people understand that."

    Law enforcement officials say they are just trying to solve crimes.

    IHT
    Another reason to make sure we all vote for the Democratic Party nominee for POTUS. McCain's SCOTUS lust outweighs any personal dislike of Clinton or Obama.

    Saturday Open Thread | 65 comments (65 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment