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Hillary and the Bachtel Medical Story

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Who was Trina Bachtel? According to this NYTimes story:

Trina Bachtel . . . die[d] last August, two weeks after her baby boy was stillborn at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens, Ohio.

This has become a new source for Clinton Derangement Syndrome at an Obama blog because:

Over the last five weeks, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has featured in her campaign stump speeches the story of a health care horror: an uninsured pregnant woman who lost her baby and died herself after being denied care by an Ohio hospital because she could not come up with a $100 fee. But hospital administrators said Friday that Ms. Bachtel was under the care of an obstetrics practice affiliated with the hospital, that she was never refused treatment and that she was, in fact, insured.

Senator Clinton heard this story, from Ohio Deputy Sheriff Brian Holman:

The sheriff’s deputy, Bryan Holman, had played host to Mrs. Clinton in his home before the Ohio primary. Deputy Holman said in a telephone interview that a conversation about health care led him to relate the story of Ms. Bachtel. He never mentioned the name of the hospital that supposedly turned her away because he did not know it, he said.

Senator Clinton NEVER mentioned the hospital nor named Ms. Bachtel, she merely related the story, as politicians, even the sainted Barack Obama, often do. As we all know, if the Media or blogs were intent on finding misstatements and/or exaggerations in politicians' statements, even those of the sainted Barack Obama, they can be found. What was important here is the issue. If you are intent on hating Hillary Clinton, you can make a big deal about this honest potential mistake - which came from relying upon an honest Ohio Sheriff's Deputy. If what you care about is blasting Hillary Clinton - if you do not care about reforming health care in this country - then by all means - act as if you see this as a big Clinton lie.

But if you care about the health care issue, if you care about people like Trina Bachtel, you might want to ask why this Ohio hospital made such a big deal about this. You might wonder about this:

Mrs. Clinton does not name Ms. Bachtel or the hospital in her speeches. As she tells it, the woman was turned away twice by a local hospital when she was experiencing difficulty with her pregnancy. “The hospital said, ‘Well, you don’t have insurance.’ She said, ‘No, I don’t.’ They said, ‘Well, we can’t see you until you give $100.’ She said, ‘Where am I going to get $100?’ “The next time she came back to the hospital, she came in an ambulance,” Mrs. Clinton continued. “She was in distress. The doctors and the nurses worked on her and couldn’t save the baby.”

Since Ms. Bachtel’s baby died at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital, the story implicitly and inaccurately accuses that hospital of turning her away, said Ms. Weiss, the spokeswoman for O’Bleness Memorial said. . . .

(Emphasis supplied.) Since neither the hospital nor Ms. Bachtel were named in the speech or in any story, why would the hospital be implicated? Why would the hospital seek to INJECT itself into this story? Frankly, the Hospital's DESIRE to become a part of this story is simply bizarre and suspicious. And its statements are contradictory:

"[T]he O’Bleness health care system treated her, both at the hospital and at the affiliated River Rose Obstetrics and Gynecology practice," Ms. Weiss said. The hospital would not provide details about the woman’s case, citing privacy concerns; she died two weeks after the stillbirth at a medical center in Columbus.

“We reviewed the medical and patient account records of this patient,” said Mr. Castrop, the health system’s chief executive. Any implication that the system was “involved in denying care is definitely not true.”

(Emphasis supplied.) Of course, the hospital completely violated Ms. Bechtel's privacy by revealing what it did. Of course when it became convenient to the hospital, it decided that privacy concerns would limit what it would further say.

This is all very bizarre. A hospital injecting itself into a story to announce a patient died under its care, all in an attempt to attack Hillary Clinton. But of course, if hating Hillary Clinton is your avocation - the issue of health care reform, the bizarre behavior of the hospital in question and the death of Trina Bachtel are of little importance to you. Get Hillary!!!!! What has happened to the progressive blogs in this election season is simply awful.

NOTE - Comments closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Does anyone question that such people (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:35:26 PM EST
    and cases exist?

    If I were really cynical and nasty, I'd say that Obama cheerleaders do doubt that, and they are again attacking Hillary Clinton from the right. How dare they undermine the argument for Universal Healthcare! ::evil grin::

    Do they really exist? (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:11 PM EST

    Thats a fair question.  Urban ledgends really exist.  I would hope that policy is made on a more substantial basis.

    Senator Clinton NEVER mentioned the hospital nor named Ms. Bachtel, she merely related the story, as politicians, even the sainted Barack Obama, often do.

    But she was quite willing to present what was little more than rumor and without checking as fact in order to advance her policy agenda.   Sadly this level of reverence for the truth seems to be the storyline on Hillary these days.

    Parent

    "Bring me the head (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:37:43 PM EST
    of a dead uninsured pregnant woman!"

    Parent
    Yes. (5.00 / 5) (#98)
    by rooge04 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:38:37 PM EST
    What terrible agenda. Universal healthcare! How horrid an agenda for a politician in America to have! Ayn Rand would be proud.

    Parent
    Obama LIED about his own father! (5.00 / 5) (#99)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:40:49 PM EST
    >>>>But she was quite willing to present what was little more than rumor and without checking as fact in order to advance her policy agenda.

    and he was quite willing to present what was little more than rumor and without checking as fact in order to obtain the Kennedy endorsement and Camelot halo.


    Parent

    Well see right there you have a problem.... (5.00 / 8) (#112)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:57:05 PM EST
    ...because you so derisively describe her motives as "advancing a political agenda." By phrasing it this way you make it seem like something "wrong." Well some of us don't think universal health care is wrong.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#210)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:15:34 PM EST
    Is your point that telling fables is OK if you agree with the policy in question, but bad otherwise?

    Parent
    Better for a policy than for (none / 0) (#212)
    by RalphB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:20:50 PM EST
    personal ego building as Obama usually does it.  From local media accounts, via a link above, the story looks as if it may turn out to be true instead of a fable.  Won't that be embarrassing?


    Parent
    Hierarchy of Shame (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by Petey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:37:10 PM EST
    "of course, if hating Hillary Clinton is your avocation - the issue of health care reform, the bizarre behavior of the hospital in question and the death of Trina Bachtel are of little importance to you."

    The Obama campaign's Harry & Louise attacks on universal healthcare are even more shameful than what they're trying to with MI and FL.

    Almost, yeah (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:39:24 PM EST
    Paul Krugman is no dummy.

    Parent
    read his book (none / 0) (#185)
    by 1jpb on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:09:26 PM EST
    "The Return of Depression Economics," he makes predictions that have been proved wrong.

    He compares European health care programs to the HRC plan, even though the role of private companies in those countries is totally different, and those countries use price controls that are not in any mainstream reform plans here.  And, he ignores the great problems with the MA plan, which is much more informative than very different European plans.  Why is that?

    To be sure he's no dummy, but he does have a record of being wrong.

    Parent

    The MA plan would not be in such (none / 0) (#189)
    by RalphB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:25:09 PM EST
    bad shape, if they provided adequate subsidies.  But they don't!  By the way, cost reduction measures are part of all the Dem plans.  Better in the Clinton plan, but then Obama's is fairly milquetoast all around.

    Parent
    Our problem is the (none / 0) (#216)
    by 1jpb on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:36:53 PM EST
    Huh? (none / 0) (#204)
    by Petey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:51:43 PM EST
    "(Krugman) compares European health care programs to the HRC plan, even though the role of private companies in those countries is totally different"

    Krugman is correct and you are incorrect.

    The English healthcare system indeed has a different role for private companies than the Edwards/Clinton plan.

    But the French and German healthcare systems have a quite similar role for private companies as the Edwards/Clinton plan does.  And they produce very good results for their citizens.

    Obama has to bash universal healthcare.  Otherwise GE Healthcare would tell NBC to stop giving him in-kind contributions during the primaries.  That's the bargain he's made.

    Parent

    shame on this hospital and shame on (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by DandyTIger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:38:05 PM EST
    anyone trying to make something of this tragedy. This is a really sad story of a tragic situation. Anyone like this hospital or any on the extreme end of the supporters of a candidate (in this case orange madness and Obama) should be ashamed. I know this is politics, but do any of these people have a heart? Are they really that soulless and heartless? Anyone making hay of this story will be reaching a new low in my opinion.

    CNN is currently analyzing (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST
    Clinton and the headline below is "Did she 'misspeak.'"  Next story is the Clinton tax returns.  

    Completely ridiculous.  

    Parent

    anyone think CNN wants all Americans (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:26:07 PM EST
    to have access to affordable health care?
    This story is only a snapshot of pushback from the corporate media and press - bowing to their Insurance and Pharma masters - and degrading the only candidate remaining pursuing health care for all.
    Even Kerry and other Obama endorsers have bowed to Obama's inferior health care plan.
    Yet another reason for the corporate media to promote Obama.


    Parent
    CNN is currently alalyzing.... (none / 0) (#190)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:28:40 PM EST
    I'm having a psychic moment as I connect to the OPRAHSPHERE  through my special internet connection...... The latest is that HRC somehow conspired with the hospital.... It's not clear how or when but conspiracy of some sort at some level is certain....
    Details later at OBAMEDIA.... Hospital using the unfortunate story of this woman to pre-emptively what ?

    Parent
    Have they implicated Chelsea yet? (none / 0) (#193)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    Apparently she was there (according to WaPo article) when the story was originally told by the sheriff.

    http://tinyurl.com/2w7lcl

    Parent

    Don't you think (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:21:28 PM EST
    there's a likelihood that at least a small number of uninsured pregnant women might have been discouraged from seeking needed care, if this false story had not been refuted?

    Parent
    Thanks for the laugh! (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by angie on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:30:18 PM EST
    Yeah, the reason why uninsured women don't go to the hospital is because of what Hillary said.  So the hospital came out to encourage uninsured women to come on in.  That sounds just like every hospital I've ever seen -- opening their arms to people who can't pay.  Good god, man -- this spin doesn't have even a tangential relationship to reality.  

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:17 PM EST
    I don't think a campaign tale that brings to light the struggles of the uninsured is going to have any negative effect on the lives of poor, pregnant uninsured women when they have to make a decision.  They already know how unwelcome they are and how harsh the healthcare system is to them.  Thus it isn't a false story - it's a story that comes directly out of the American subconsciousness.  Look at the way this hospital is behaving.  

    We have an actual health care crisis.  We know this story is true in the sense of 'ecstatic truth.'  We know people die when they don't have to.  And the too-poor-to-afford-insurance folks know that far better than the insured do.


    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 5) (#101)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:42:48 PM EST
    ...just think about the story that made huge headlines last fall in LA. The woman who was trying to get care at an LA hospital that served a low-income community and she was ignored over and over again by ED staff. When someone called the police because this woman was writhing on the floor in pain and no one would help her, they decided to act on a previously issued warrant for her arrest and she died before they could get her into the police car.

    This stuff happens. It happens more than you would think. And if people want to make hay out of this story and whether she vetted it enough before taking the local sheriff's word for it, you will get a whole bunch of people who are willing to tell their own personal health care horror stories.

    The hospital has the incentive of protecting itself, and since people are already suspicious that hospitals will protect themselves before caring for patients, this doesn't help that image, at all.

    Parent

    Welfare queens were (5.00 / 0) (#132)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:20:59 PM EST
    part of the American subconcious too...Reagan told a lot of stories about welfare queens...

    I really think we should stick to the truth than some gut instinct about the American subconcious....

    Parent

    "Ecstatic Truth???" (none / 0) (#102)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:43:06 PM EST
    I never took philosphy or logic or whatever field this term comes from...but is this the form of "truth" that Bush uses to link Saddam, WMD and Al Queda? You say the story comes out of America's subconcious. Well, in 2003 70% of Americans believed Saddam was somehow responsible for 9/11. So the invasion came right out of our subconcious too, then. That's what you call a defense?

    Parent
    The term comes from the German director Herzog. (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:56:12 PM EST
    He directed "Grizzly Man" among other great movies.  It refers to representing reality in a way that is deeper than fact, deeper than the assumptions we make when collecting statistics.  You can argue with me about whether it is appropriate to link the health care crisis and stories that encapsulate it with a concept of ecstatic truth if you want.  To better describe my point, the story is true as an allegory might be true.  She did not, after all, mention the woman's name, or the hospital.  But it is a striking story because there are many similar cases out there and the story has the power to make us think of all those cases, of the vulnerability of the uninsured in this country, etc.
    That is why most people shouldn't, and won't, see this as a lie, aside from more obvious reasons that are pointed out elsewhere on this thread.
    It's why I used his term 'ecstatic truth.'  

    Obviously Bush was able to politicize widespread fear and get away with staggering lies.  That's what politicians do.  They politicize emotions.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#127)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:14:08 PM EST
    for taking the time to clarify. It strikes me that the concept of "ecstatic truth" might be abused to justify sifting actual data in order to confirm one's prior biases.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#155)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:44:18 PM EST
    it's probably a silly mistake to transfer it to politics the way I did.  But this story strikes a chord in a way that reminds me of that concept.  Having a politician trot around under some banner of ecstatic truth is not something I would ever want to see though.  

    Parent
    The term comes from ... (none / 0) (#196)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:15:34 PM EST
    I think anecdote is better..... I'm not judgin' I'm just sayin'...

    Parent
    No, none at all (none / 0) (#80)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:31:09 PM EST
    But thank you for your concern

    Parent
    A good question (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:41:18 PM EST
    Is this snark, DandyTiger? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Tortmaster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:22:56 PM EST
    I mean, you do realize that Hillary Clinton tried to "make hay" from the story, don't you? Except, the story HRC was speaking about never happened.

    To me, the answer is simple, HRC should have said to a subordinate: "Check out this story and get back to me. I may want to use it in a future speech."

    The subordinate then calls the police officer and finds out who he heard the story from, then the subordinate calls that person to find out who he or she heard the story from ... until the actual facts are known.

    That's kinda, sorta like what you would do to find out if a country was storing WMD.

    As important as Universal Health Care is, its proponent should be more careful to avoid giving ammunition to the enemy. What will the Republicans say? This just goes  to prove that health care IS available. So, HRC opened herself (and her main issue) to attack. Not a good move.    


    Parent

    Obama did "make hay" (none / 0) (#151)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:37:20 PM EST
    with his lies about his father's connection to the Kennedy family - which never happened.
    It worked - and is still not mentioned on Obama blogs.

    Parent
    Obama did make Hay.... (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:21:42 PM EST
    I was moved by the transcendent Selma Romance of his parents
    during the civil rights protests that led to his birth... Which ( his birth ) happened a few years before said protests.....

    Parent
    If HRC did not provide a name (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Molly Pitcher on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:43:59 PM EST
    Than who says this is the same person?  And it isn't so far fetched.  Wasn't it a Chicago hospital that refused care and was the impetus for a ruling that emergency rooms cannot turn people away?

    It was Bachtel (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:47:48 PM EST
    But no one knew this or the hospital until now.

    The hospital's behavior is simply unfathomable.

    Parent

    Releasing the name (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:22:04 PM EST
    was clearly wrong....Bachtel should not have to suffer this too....

    Parent
    She won't...... (none / 0) (#150)
    by michitucky on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:36:24 PM EST
    She won't suffer because she's dead.  Her family will suffer from this...They've lost her and her child.  Now she used as a pawn...Politics as usual.

    Parent
    Can the family sue (none / 0) (#186)
    by felizarte on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:14:07 PM EST
    for violating patient's privacy?

    Parent
    No idea. (none / 0) (#188)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:21:38 PM EST
    But it is clearly the hospital's fault.  When I was an employee, we were told to say nothing at all and refer all questions to the hospital's spokesperson.  Any employee can lose their job if they let any patient information slip, even if it was not intentional disclosure.

    Parent
    I hope you guys ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Tortmaster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:39:25 PM EST
    ... aren't representing me if I'm ever accused of killing a pregnant woman.

    I'm no big fan of hospitals, as I've seen too many medical reports "modified" and testimony made up to cover for negligence, even intentional actions, but I try to judge each hospital and doctor individually.  

    Does anyone know if this story was making the rounds in the local community? If so, the hospital should be allowed to defend its reputation -- especially when it has been accused of mercilessly killing someone. Using the young woman's actual name appears to be going too far, but I don't know what was going on in the local community.  

     

    Parent

    Hmm (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:09:11 PM EST
    I did not know they were accused of anything. Indeed, THAT is the point. No one knew about them until they decided to get involved. NOW they might get sued.

    You need representation like I give.

    Parent

    You make me blush! (none / 0) (#187)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:18:20 PM EST
    If a 35 year old is a "young woman" then I haven't even advanced to "matron" yet.

    The story to me is about someone who knew that she needed medical care, but couldn't find anyone to provide it.

    When the hospital you get admitted to airlifts you to another two hours away, you are in very, very bad shape.  (Total guess - OSU because it probably has the best adult trauma services in the region.)

    Parent

    I was baffled when i read the story this morning (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by fuzzyone on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:44:11 PM EST
    Its incredibly poorly written.  There is no explanation for the conclusion that the story Clinton tells is based on the case of Tina Bachtel.  Its really quite bizarre.  

    Now you can certainly question whether she should be including second hand stories that she has not verified in her stump speech.  After the Bosnia thing and given the press's hostility and love of playing gotcha she would be well advised, from a strategic perspective, to check and double check everything in her stump speeches.  

    I tend to agree (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:45:47 PM EST
    Of course America tends to also end up with leaders who spend more time scrubbing speeches than helping Americans.

    Parent
    Well, maybe she could just go with something (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:52:11 PM EST
    that Obama can relate to - she can just say this was a "composite" of so many stories she has heard, that are a terrible indictment of the state of health care.

    Parent
    Precisely (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:53:12 PM EST
    This is exactly why Obama supporters are foolish here.

    Parent
    That's what happens when....... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:58:06 PM EST
    ...you stay up all night looking for dirt in tax returns and find nothing.

    Parent
    It was based on Bacthel (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:46:58 PM EST
    What is unfathomable is why the hospital would want this story to be about it.

    Now it is the hospital where this woman died. Before no one knew it existed.

    Parent

    Correction - she died in Columbus (none / 0) (#131)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    Columbus is at about two hours away from Meigs County.  Columbus is also where you can find top notch medical care.  It's unlikely you could find that in Meigs County.  

    Parent
    If Athens is in Meigs County, (none / 0) (#148)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:34:38 PM EST
    it is the home of Ohio University, whose faculty and employees, I assume, demand proficient medical care providers.  

    Parent
    If it weren't for OU (none / 0) (#153)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:42:06 PM EST
    Meigs County would barely have an economy, let alone a hospital.  

    This really is Appalachia - beautiful, scenic and poor.

    Parent

    Agree. (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:42:48 PM EST
    It was based on Bacthel.... (none / 0) (#199)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:26:15 PM EST
    Sounds kinda like pre-emptive reasoning.

    Parent
    What's the real problem? (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by Anne on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:49:27 PM EST
    That the anecdote Clinton tells is one that people can relate to, because there are people without insurance, who have done without health care because they could not afford it, and any discussion of the state of health care brings up the competing plans and his plan suffers by comparison?  Is that the problem?

    So...when the attack machine goes into overdrive attempting to take down Clinton for some alleged problem with the story, do these people not realize how many people can and will come forward with their own experiences, which will only serve to keep a very unflattering light shining on Obama's plan and his disingenuous ads?

    Unbelievably short-sighted approach.

    there are several truly superb fpers at that blog (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Turkana on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:58:54 PM EST
    and they are among the best, anywhere. and they deserve better. i wish they'd start their own blog.

    Like Gore and Kerry, Clinton is a liar (5.00 / 8) (#40)
    by BDB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:59:12 PM EST
    and must be destroyed, and this time democrats will be the ones to do it.  (It's funny how any criticism of Obama is immediately met with "You're hurting the party for November" but repeatedly calling Clinton, who could still be the nominee, a liar, well that's not damaging at all.  Ask Gore.)

    It's been quite clear for some time that it's way more important for bloggers these days to save us all from Clinton and her Universal Healthcare than questioning the media or a hospital's cover story.  

    Or perhaps, you haven't heard, despite all the work done by the blogosphere, it's now accepted democratic wisdom "nobody could've predicted 9/11."  Pushback against media narratives and conservative framing?  Crazy talk that will only prevent us from achieving Unity.

    This is why I think (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:19:11 PM EST
    I used to think a Gore endorsement of Obama was a no brainer, but then I realize there is some real empathy between him and Sen. Clinton on this issue.

    And some concern on Gore's part to see the Obama campaign milk it for it's worth.

    I also feel really sorry for Kerry.

    But moreso because Obama is out there saying "...who didn't think it was a vote for war", which is, as much as anything else, a character attack on Kerry himself.

    But he seems to be OK with it.  So I feel sorry for him.

    Parent

    Quite sad this woman's memory and (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:08:10 PM EST
    predicament are now political fodder.  

    I agree wholeheartedly (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Suma on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:15:58 PM EST
    Here is a good, hard working woman who has devoted her life to public service. You may not like her as a candidate, but please, give her the respect she has earned and deserves for her accomplishments. She has had to put up with the garbage that has been thrown at her from the press and many Obama supporters and still keeps on going. She is a role model to me and many other "older" women like me, who have had to struggle through life.
    She gives nearly 10% of her income to charity and this is what she gets in return? No good deed goes unpunished!
    Sorry, but I just had to vent it out.

    Parent
    Having Set the Standard for Anecdotes (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by BDB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:09:11 PM EST
    I do hope every story Obama tells will meet it if he's the nominee.  Otherwise, having set this standard, how on earth will his supporters and the blogosphere push back against it when the GOP  apply it to Obama in the Fall?

    These folks cannot see around the next corner.  

    Like the one about passing nuclear legislation? (5.00 / 5) (#105)
    by Xeno on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:44:54 PM EST
    You know, the story Obama was peddling early in the campaign about how he passed legislation forcing nuclear plants to tell the public when they have leaks? When that turned out to be untrue, he faced real consequences. The press attacks on Obama's credibility for falsely claiming to have passed a law were swift and damning....

    Oh, wait. He never was held accountable for that outright lie. My bad.

    Parent

    As a healthcare provider... (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:19:57 PM EST
    I believe the hospital WAY overstepped in injecting itself into the mess and I cannot possibly fathom what drove them to do it...someone should check to see if the CEO is a donor to the Obama campaign or something.

    Clinton, rightly, did not mention the name of the woman or the name of the hospital. The NYTimes could not possibly have just respected that this woman has a right to privacy and simply had to go digging to find her name. Now the hospital feels like it is under attack because it is known where the still born child died. But the who is the hospital to say that the patient did not seek emergency care elsewhere? They have no idea if she went elsewhere and was denied care! They are breaking patient confidentiality by injecting themselves into this mess all together...

    On a personal note, I went to the ED for what turned out to be a minor condition. After I was taken back and waiting to see the doctor, a billing rep approached and asked me for my credit card. When I told her I had already paid my copay, she said that I had paid the wrong amount and they would not treat me unless I agreed to have more charged to my card. No matter how many times I insisted that I had paid the right amount and that she should just call my insurer to confirm, she kept insisting that I would not be treated unless I let her charge the additional $100 to my credit card. I was sick and needed to be seen, so I agreed. When I filed a complaint afterwards, the hospital admitted that I had been correct and that this woman had been wrong.

    In my case, the billing rep approached me after I registered my presence. But had she approached me before hand and had I not had a credit card to charge the extra copay amount to, I would have walked away. Who is to say that one rogue employee did not turn Ms. Batchel away? There would be record of it if she had not already been registered...

    Well, if they (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by rooge04 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:21:30 PM EST
    want a real story about the state of healthcare I'll give them one. Several years ago my appendix burst and I was in the hospital for about a month. No insurance, no coverage and my parents were not able to pay the bill. We paid the hospital something like 5K over the course of 4 year and got sued for the remainder 96K.  I almost died in the hospital because I had no primary care doctor since I was uninsured and no one was monitoring my fever (read: massive infection).  I got crappy care and almost died AND ended up owing 96K because I happened to be born to parents that could not afford healthcare.

    She can use that story.  

    sorry to hear (none / 0) (#168)
    by DandyTIger on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:15:17 PM EST
    that you had not only this money hassle, but of course the really nasty underlying problem. And of course what's sad here is that if you had insurance and thus periodic medical care, you probably wouldn't have gotten to the point of a burst appendix requiring a month in the hospital. That is a perfect example of why we need universal health care. This is completely intolerable that we allow this in our country. The other thing this sort of neglect of our system causes is longer term health problems that can result from lack of preventative care and in this case most likely massive amounts of infection. This sucks. We need a candidate who actually wants universal health care in the first place and will fight for it.

    Parent
    I've never believed Obama was serious about (none / 0) (#175)
    by nycstray on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:33:39 PM EST
    health care. The Harry and Louise ads did not help ease my mind on that front, and now I'm really wondering what's behind this story.

    Btw, my friend does have health insurance and still couldn't get the care she needs. She's landed in ER 3 times almost bleeding to death. Last time (Nov 07) they replaced all the blood in her body. She knew what was happening ahead of time since it had happened 2x's before. Still couldn't get in to head off the massive bleed out and had to rely on ER services yet again.

    Parent

    I'm sure John Cole at Balloon Juice will post (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    an update/retraction since he made a big deal of the story this morning.

    I'll sit down while I'm waiting.

    The NYT's story doesn't say much except it names the woman and says she was allegedly insured.

    It doesn't refute the $100 payment part (could it have been a co-pay?) nor does it say what caused the woman's death.

    Actually, the story is even worse if the woman was insured.  That means she paid for coverage and was denied care anyway.

    Michael Moore detailed similar horror stories in Sicko.

    x (none / 0) (#128)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:15:40 PM EST
    Exactly. I have no doubt that this story was true and that it happens thousands of times a year in American hospitals.

    I also have no doubt that the hospital would lie its a** off if it thought it needed to protect its reputation. We've seen insurance companies and hospitals cover up all kinds of wrongdoing in the past. With their hospital being highlighted by Clinton's story, who can really believe they wouldn't lie about what really happened?


    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#144)
    by americanincanada on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:30:43 PM EST
    people are jumping to a lot of conclusion based on a NYT piece that essentially proves...NOTHING. it has no proof and the hospital conveniently offers none either.

    Parent
    Tell me again who is tearing the party apart?? (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by MarkL on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:28:35 PM EST
    This is really disgusting---very Bush-like.
    If the Obama campaign has any connection to the hospital's bizarre actions, I will definitely NOT vote for Obama, period.
    That is one last straw too many.
    The politics of personal destruction were supposed to be part of the GOP playbook, not the DEMs'.

    Obama is not culpable for every story (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by demps on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:31:08 PM EST
    that attempts to undermine Clinton

    Parent
    And vice versa (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:32:15 PM EST
    Note that my writing does not blame Obama at all for this.

    Parent
    I know, was not suggesting that you were,and I (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by demps on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:13 PM EST
    agree with you in this case, it would be foolhardy as an Obama supporter to embrace this

    Parent
    I said "IF". Let me further qualify: (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by MarkL on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:35:16 PM EST
    If the Obama campaign USES this story to further attack Clinton's honesty, I am also through with him.
    Fortunately for the Democrats, my vote will not matter in the fall, but if it did, I would stay home in November with relish.

    Parent
    Staying home (none / 0) (#218)
    by vigkat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 07:43:11 PM EST
    I never thought I would ever consider it, but much more of this kind of thing is going to put me over the edge.  There IS a limit.

    Parent
    I work full-time (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:44:50 PM EST
    in a big city Emergency Room and have worked at several hospitals prior to this one. While you are quite correct that not all hospitals are like this, there are certainly some or many that are, and I believe you are more likely to see this kind of behavior in smaller community hospitals because they tend not to have as much funding to deal with uninsured patients.

    Not all hospitals (3.00 / 2) (#114)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:01:03 PM EST
    are like what, exactly? They contend they never denied the woman care. And that she actually had insurance. The deputy's story had no merit whatsoever. [And btw, it's unfortunate that the real problems with our helthcare system, of which I'm acutely aware, get smokescreened by this kind of BS. Posters are right that there are plenty of real horror stories out there. Why not use them?] Trust matters.

    Parent
    Isn't it possible (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:08:06 PM EST
    that she showed up at the hospital and was told she had a $100 co-pay and then said she couldn't pay it so the hospital registration staff told her that they couldn't see her without the co-pay? She would never have made it into the system as being there...

    Also, she could very well have gone to another hospital seeking care, neither Clinton or the individual who shared the story with Clinton ever implicated the hospital in the story, the hospital decided to inject itself into the story about the NYTimes said which hospital the infant was delivered at...

    If you think stuff like this does not happen in our health care system, you are blind to what is going on around you. Her story is so powerful because so many Americans have actually experienced such disturbing encounters with the health care system - it rings true because we can all relate to it!

    Parent

    As I said, (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:11:41 PM EST
    there certainly are real flaws in the system. This is a vital issue. That's wy trust matters. There are plenty of real horror stories out there, people with real stories to tell who I'm sure would volunteer to be cited by the campaign. It's irresponsible to run with hearsay like this which only gives the GOP ammo to cast doubt on any helthcare proposal.

    Parent
    But (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:16:26 PM EST
    you did not address the other issues I presented. Isn't it possible that she went to a different health care institution for Emergency care, and not the hospital that has come forward? The police officer who relayed the story to Clinton never told her the name of the hospital. And even if it was the same hospital, isn't it possible she was told by a hospital employee that if she couldn't afford her co-pay she could not be seen? If this happened to her before she registered, then there would be no record.

    I have had personal experience with this, I was told by a staff person in an ED that if I didn't pay what she thought was the correct amount of my co-pay, I would not be seen....I had already registered, so there would be evidence of my visit, but if she had told me this before I registered and if I could not afford the co-pay, I would have left....

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#157)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:46:06 PM EST
    your scenario is plausible, and you may have hit on the kernel of truth behind the story. And if that's the case, it's a great example of a flaw in our current system. It's too bad Hillary's staff didn't run down the facts and protect themselves (and the universal healthcare movement) from charges of fabulism. But the Clinton/Ickes/Penn team just can't seem to grasp that most voters don't care about "ecstatic truth;" trust is an important issue for the general election and in mobilizing support for any initiative she may offer if elected.

    Parent
    Here's the problem... (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:04:29 PM EST
    Clinton was telling a story about being told a story.  She made that perfectly clear.  The story was about the woman and the baby, but it was also about the people who told her the story expressing their concerns about what is happening in the healthcare system today.  She did not name names and only gave a general location as to where the story was relayed to her.  There is nothing in her telling that suggests that she was being anything but genuine in recounting the story that she stated up front was told to her by a voter.  The fact is that there are any number of these kinds of stories about our healthcare system today.  There is no reason for her to name names or investigate every anecdote if she is consistently hearing one horror story after another as she goes around the country campaigning.  People are telling her there is a problem.  People are telling her their personal stories and stories about people they know.  She recounted one of those stories.  There is NO crime in that and nothing to suggest that she was intentionally lying or fabricating a set of facts.

    You can go onto the Kaiser Family Foundation's website and read paper after paper after paper about the problems that the uninsured and insured people face in our healthcare system today.  There is plenty of statistical data to show that people aren't getting treated until they show up really ill in an emergency room.  There is plenty of statistical data to show that prenatal care is on a decline that is compromising infant health and the lives of mothers.

    (CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report.

    [snip]

    The report, which analyzed data from governments, research institutions and international agencies, found higher newborn death rates among U.S. minorities and disadvantaged groups. For African-Americans, the mortality rate is nearly double that of the United States as a whole, with 9.3 deaths per 1,000 births.

    has second worst newborn death rate in modern world, report says

    There are many studies underway and completed that show that women of color in particular are the most vulnerable and underserved where it comes to our healthcare system.  That group is more likely to be turned away when seeking care.  Black women are more likely not to receive care when they are diagnosed with breast cancer than white women.  Black men and women are less likely to receive life saving cardiologcal care and devices.  The list goes on and on and on.

    To attack Clinton on this front is to attack every single person who has been denied access to care who has told their story to any of the candidates; and it is really, really stupid and sad that the liberal blogosphere is leading the attack.

    Parent

    Yes.... (none / 0) (#195)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:10:13 PM EST
    Was that old woman wandering around in her hospital gown in LA  few months back part of this estatic truth you describe? She'd been dumped, why because she was poor. Alot of the poor are working poor, and don't smoke crack, drink themselves into oblivion or live beyond their means. Some of us are poor simply because of default. People who live pay check to pay check consider health care for themselves a sort of luxury they can't afford. My daughter was insured by her father until turning 18 last month at which time he announced that he wasn't required by law to insure her anymore even though he can afford it. He told her not to take it personally. I hope she can get student coverage of some sort if she goes to college, we have to wait and see about her finacial aid. Me aside from the tooth incident, haven't been able to afford a Dr.s checkup since 1999. HRC plan would give po' folks like me a leg up and that's all we'd like.

    Parent
    Yes! (none / 0) (#197)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:18:47 PM EST
    Your daughter can get access to pretty good, relatively inexpensive, health coverage by going to college, including at many community colleges.  It may not be the only or best reason to get a higher education, but it's not a bad one.  Good luck.

    Parent
    Still wrong on your facts (none / 0) (#115)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:04:20 PM EST
    Review your comment and find your errors.

    Parent
    I work full - time... (none / 0) (#194)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:51:13 PM EST
    Just wanted to interject my most recent experience as a member of the underclass. Had a severe tooth ache, went to the local po' folks county hosp, ( Which by the way is goin broke cause all the surrounding suburbs that aren't in the county dump their own poor there... I digress ) So my brother takes me and my daughter after he gets off his night job and The tooth reduces me to a scary mass of whimper to the PO' Folks County Hosp. After waiting in the ER waiting room for 4 1/2 hrs and receiving a bracelet with my name on it, but still no examination ( I was hoping to get a shot of antibiotics and perhaps enough pain killers to survive the weekend until I could go to the Po' Folks Dental school Clinic and get the thing pulled )... I went through the special doors to see what was going on that might be causing the hold up.There had been a multi car pile up, so the wait was understandable. Priorities are what they are and my tooth ache was sorta way down on the list, so I left. We drove to my mothers and because of her chronic health problems she had a ready stash of antibiotics and some super tylenol. I survived and got treatment. The Po' Folks County Hosp. sent me a bill for $399.00 for that fancy bracelet I recieved and the chance to ponder my navel and the mysteries of the universe in their waiting room. It's easy to judge the Poor and our stupid problems. Truth is we all begin in diapers and alot of us will end up in them too. Some of us will have special nannies. Alot of us won't and who knows maybe we'll end up as Soylent Green, But Universal Healthcare has to happen for everyone even the working poor.By the way, I don't blame the Hosp. I returned the bracelet.... Not my color and way too expensive.

    Parent
    Okay, that was weird. (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:04:43 PM EST
    Meigs County is a part of Ohio Appalachia - poor, rural, lightly populated.  And yes, I can believe a) that the first part of the story happened here.

    But the second part is strange.  Bechtel died in a Columbus area "medical center".  Columbus is far from Meigs County.  This implies that she may have been in bad enough shape that she was tranported to another, better facility.  OR her family or a doctor may have insisted she be moved.

    This does reinforce one point I try to make every time the opportunity presents itself.

    Women, can and indeed do, die as a result of pregnancy.

    x (none / 0) (#130)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:17:00 PM EST
    I seem to recall from Clinton's original story that she was transported to a second hospital when she had gotten much worse. Perhaps this news story is talking to the wrong hospital?


    Parent
    Gotten much worse? (none / 0) (#146)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:31:27 PM EST
    Likely excessive bleeding or sepsis.  I hope it wasn't sepsis or the original hospital may have delivered poor care.  Bleeding can happen with any pregnancy - placental abruptions are always a danger and one of the reasons that any bleeding during pregnancy is a major danger sign.  (Placental abruptions are when the placenta tears away from the uterine wall, usually causing the mother to bleed.)

    (Feel free to tell me to shut up on the medical stuff.)

    Parent

    From the Ross News link. (none / 0) (#167)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:14:05 PM EST
    Bachtel was in bad shape when she was transported to O'Bleness Memorial.  The baby was stillborn there and then she was airlifted to Columbus, possibly OSU.

    Parent
    Interesting (none / 0) (#140)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:25:05 PM EST
    If the story is not true, (5.00 / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:06:07 PM EST
    stop telling it.  It is that simple.  It is about a regard for the truth.  

    No one should blame Hillary for telling the story at first.  But if she repeats it while knowing it is not true or has been debunked, that is the issue.

    Reagan told many stories about welfare queens....to make what many thought a valid point.

    By repeating false stories, Hillary is undermining support for health care reform.  Many think that Hillary would be just the fighter needed to achieve health care reform.  The potential problem is getting people to believe her. Opponents of health care reform will simply say that she is not credible....

    Hillary and story telling is a`story now.....She would do well to drop this tale.  

    She has not (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:24:37 PM EST
    So your so called rationale for the story and dkos article is fallacious.

    Parent
    to answer one question (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by Lora on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:11:40 PM EST
    . As she tells it, the woman was turned away twice by a local hospital when she was experiencing difficulty with her pregnancy. "The hospital said, `Well, you don't have insurance.'
    She said, `No, I don't.' They said, `Well, we can't see you until you give $100.' She said, `Where am I going to get $100?' "The next time she came back to the hospital, she came in an ambulance," Mrs. Clinton continued.
    Since Ms. Bachtel's baby died at O'Bleness Memorial Hospital, the story implicitly and inaccurately accuses that hospital of turning her away, said Ms. Weiss, the spokeswoman for O'Bleness Memorial said. . . .

    (Emphasis supplied.) Since neither the hospital nor Ms. Bachtel were named in the speech or in any story, why would the hospital be implicated?

    If Hillary actually told the story as quoted above, she is implying that the same hospital that turned Ms. Bachtel away twice is the one in which the baby died.  To imply otherwise she might have said "a hospital," or "another hospital," not came back to the hospital.

    Not sure. (none / 0) (#137)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:24:13 PM EST
    But the odds are excellent that there is exactly ONE hospital in Meigs County.  The whole county has less than 25,000 residents.  

    Parent
    Please read (none / 0) (#147)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:34:03 PM EST
    NO facility was named. None. But the Hospital replied.  They could not do that just to defend themselves. It is against the law to tell who was or was not a patient and the circumstances of the admit.

    The reporter does not state where she got her information, she just inserts the hospital's comment.

    Anyway, so what? What is your point to analyze this over and over?

    See the above post for fabrication if that is what you are seeking.

    Parent

    Thanks Be To Obama Supporters (5.00 / 4) (#126)
    by BDB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:12:52 PM EST
    for setting me straight on what makes one a chronic liar, unfit for the presidency.  When I had read things like this and this, I thought little of them other than they were further proof of something I already knew, that Obama was a politician.  Of course, I was grateful it was Obama who exaggerated and lied and not Clinton, if only to spare me Keith Olbermann's Special Comment.  

    Now that I have been presented with the true standard by which a candidate should be judged - where even accurately repeating a story from a deputy sheriff makes one a liar and misstating a detail in a story makes one a fabricator - I see that I severely under-reacted to Obama's lies and distortions.  That he is, in fact, like - coincidentally, I'm sure - every other democrat of the last decade, a serial liar unfit for the presidency.

    So thank you, Obama diarists and supporters.  Without your help, I'd still be using common sense - instead of crazed overreaction - when evaluating my democratic presidential choices.  Now that I've applied the standard you've so efficiently imported from the GOP, I see my only choice is John McCain.*

    * Sarcasm alert for those who have attended the Obama Internet Training Camp that specializes in unlearning certain more rabid supporters of how to read.

    Clinton's mistake here (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by magster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:22:52 PM EST
    is not vetting the story first, especially after being left vulnerable after the Tuzla stuff.  If she could not confirm the story, she should not retell it.  You can complain about the refs not calling the same fouls on the opposing party, or you can stop fouling.

    The foul here is not lying, but carelessness.  Clinton has very little margin for error.  Mark Penn fiasco and now this makes for a bad weekend for Clinton, and both were avoidable by Clinton.

    I doi not think this story has made much (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:28:37 PM EST
    headway except at the Obama blogs.

    Parent
    Hmmm (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:24:58 PM EST
    I read this at another blog:

    If you can't verify the story ... don't tell it! It's that simple. And, if a newspaper can dig up the truth behind the story, then your staff should be able to, as well.

    That was my point about Obama's false statement that  the Kennedy family paid to bring his father to the U.S. It may have been family folklore, but he didn't check it and he was wrong.

    What's good for the goose....

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#142)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:27:50 PM EST
    What do you know is true or not here? Truth be told, I did not agree with your post.

    Parent
    Kennedy didn't pay for the airlift (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:31:04 PM EST
    until the year after his father arrived.

    Those who chastise Hillary for not checking a fact  should apply the same yardstick to him.

    I wasn't commenting on the Bachtel story, I haven't read it, I was commenting on what was said about it at the other blog.

    Parent

    I disagree with the yardstick (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:05:40 PM EST
    It just does not matter to anything and it is silly for Dems to be laying this game with fellow Dems.

    Parent
    Not knowing (none / 0) (#179)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:02:47 PM EST
    Not knowing Wright's politics now there is a doozer.  

    Parent
    Listen to this podcast of an interview with (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by hitchhiker on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:34:42 PM EST
    an Ohio reporter.  It's five minutes and 10 seconds into the one at the top of the list, 4/4/08.  Yes, two media people who actually did the work.  You'll be astonished at how badly the NYT has screwed this up.

    http://www.mynorthwest.com/rss/dave.rss


    Okay, here's what I got from that. (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:05:40 PM EST
    There is one for profit hospital in Meigs Co.
    They lost their nonprofit in 2001 and have no Emergency Services.  The County worked for six years to get Federal funding for community health care and finally got it in the end of 2007.

    They still have no Emergency Services, though.

    Unknown:
    Did Trina Bachtel(age 35) have any prenatal care?

    Apparently she did try to obtain care, but was turned away.  She may have been insured, but the hospital may still have demanded some form of pre- or co- payment.

    Insurance does not equal access to care.  


    Parent

    It sounds as if the story Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by RalphB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:42:32 PM EST
    actually told may be true.  she didn't say she was taken to the same hospital by ambulance. she said it was a different institution.

    the NYT hosed this all the way around.  not too surprising when you consider other stories like Wen Ho Lee, etc.

    Parent

    The sheriff may speak up soon (none / 0) (#178)
    by lilburro on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    which would be interesting.

    (pure speculation on my part btw)

    Parent

    Judith Miller Is Reporting (none / 0) (#206)
    by BDB on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:52:48 PM EST
    the hospital had WMD.  Hey, it's in the Times, it must be true.  Especially if it's a story about the Clintons.  It's not like the Times has a history of publishing false information about the Clintons...oh, wait.

    Parent
    Judith Miller is reporting.... (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:28:01 PM EST
    ............Having another pyschic moment...... Just tuned into the OPRAHSPHERE using my special internet connection and sources inside the OBAMEDIA have confirmed that yes.... WMD's were suspected to be at or near the hospital and that Clinton or someone that looked just like her was spotted briefly somewhere near the location.... What connection this could have with the alleged conspiracy between Clinton and un-named co-conspirators reported earlier remains unclear... What is certain is that some conspiracy related to the unconfirmed sighting is certain..... Details forthcoming from OBAMEDIA....

    Parent
    It's amusing... (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:45:04 PM EST
    ... to read the comments of so many people who couldn't give a whit about people like Trina Bachtel (mandates are evilllll!), but are willing to use her story to attack the only candidate left who proposes universal health care.

    I can't imagine this will become a big story--if the worst is that Clinton repeated a story she was told was true, and that she believed to be true, then no big deal.

    As for vetting every single story--you can't always do it. According to an earlier WaPo piece on Clinton's habit of telling heartrending stories on the trail, the campaign didn't know Bachtel's name; it was the WaPo that identified her, and the NYT that followed up.

    Shouldn't there be at least a little doubt cast on the hospital's version of events? I mean, they're hardly a disinterested party.

    From what I can gather, the version relayed to Clinton is this: Bachtel went to the hospital, where she was asked for $100 for treatment. She didn't have it, and left. She then went back a few weeks later in an ambulance. She lost her baby, was airlifted to Columbus, where she died.

    The hospital claims that she was in fact treated there, and was insured.

    I'm not sure there's a huge contradiction here. Is the following a plausible scenario?

    Bachtel goes to the hospital with some complaints. She is told she'd have to pay $100 out of pocket, even with her insurance. She decides she can't afford it, and decides against treatment.

    A few weeks later, with things going badly, she's taken to the hospital in an ambulance. The hospital admits her, tries to treat her, and has her airlifted to Columbus, where she dies.

    Isn't that consistent with both Clinton's account and the hospital's?

    I'm trying to figure out how any campaigning (5.00 / 3) (#158)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:49:23 PM EST
    politician could ever tell any anecdote in the future.  First, talk to the complaiinant; then do a thorough investigation, including interviewing all possible witnesses and documents.  If you can prove what the complainant sd. beyond a shadow of a doubt--go for it.  Of course, the pol. would have to constantly check back with everyone to make sure nothing new came up.  

    Parent
    I see two ways... (5.00 / 5) (#165)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:10:11 PM EST
    ... that pols can tell anecdotes relayed to them.

    (1) The first, as you say, is to thoroughly vet every single story told to them, if possible by using polygraphs and cavity searches where possible. The fact that reputable news organizations such as the NYT (Curveball), The New Republic (Scott Beauchamp), etc. often are taken in is no excuse. Nor does it matter if the story you are telling is true in spirit anyway, as appears to be the case here with Clinton. That's no excuse. You should know every single thing about every single story that you hear.

    (2) The second is simpler. Don't be named Hillary Clinton or Al Gore.

    Parent

    I see two ways... (none / 0) (#203)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:45:45 PM EST
    HRC can use my anecdote related about my tooth. I have two witnesses, but since they are related to me could appear suspect.... I'll give up my anonymous status and let myself be photographed even though I'm not particularly interesting looking.... I'll provide the tooth, but I sent back the bracelet. The whole thing is absurd. Anecdotes are what they are and HRC did nothing wrong, she related the story from a reliable source and didn't name names. Hsp. is clearly stupid and so is Obamedia.

    Parent
    Well...they all could (none / 0) (#182)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:05:38 PM EST
    except Hillary.  Cause the CIA and every reporter will go check every detail, until it's proven wrong.  But, heh, all that the others have to do is say:  Oops, did not know or my staff did it.  And its honky dory.  

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#160)
    by nell on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    The idea you present that she may have shown up at the hospital, only to have an employee tell her that  if she could not afford the co-pay she could not be seen, and then decided to leave...if they never registered her into their system, then there would be no record that she ever did show up and the hospital can claim that they never refused her treatment because there is no record of this refusal. She may have also gone to a different ED.

    I believe Clinton relayed the story as her being uninsured, and I am not sure if that is correct or not. The part about the $100 makes it sound like she had a co-pay, which more likely than not means she was insured through a private provider. But it actually makes it WORSE if this woman was insured and still turned away over a $100!

    Parent

    I checked the story. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:08:16 PM EST
    There is NO "other ED" in Meigs Co.  There was no other hospital in Meigs Co.  She would have had to gone out of county, something like an hour's drive to try to seek another source of health care.

    Parent
    I thought that part... (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:12:25 PM EST
    ... of the way Clinton tells the story is that her home county didn't have a facility, so she had to go to another one.

    The story has several morals--that everyone needs to have health insurance, that too many places don't have access to local health care, etc.

    Of course, the political press couldn't care less about any of that. They'd rather engage in stupid gotcha politics.

    Parent

    NYT front page today also features (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:18:46 PM EST
    an article about MA health care plan, long waits, not enough health care professionals, etc.

    Parent
    Have to check that. (none / 0) (#170)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:17:15 PM EST
    But if O'Bleness was the closest and still out of her home county - then anything else would have been  even further away!  I don't know how many nonprofit hospitals are out that way.  I'm guessing very few - small economy, small population.

    Parent
    You know what? (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:39:54 PM EST
    Clinton was told this story by some voters who lived in a small town and they told her the story they knew and she relayed it as a story told to her - she was perfectly up front about her source - she did not name names - she used it as an anecdote to illustrate how important access to care is - and the studies and statistics actually back up her anecdotal story about women who are at the low end of the wage scale not having adequate access to healthcare for a myriad of reasons and ailments - put that woman in a rural community and it gets worse - if the woman is black or Hispanic it is worse still.

    The Obama attack on Clinton's story is bull and I can only conclude that Obama's weakness on healthcare policy is so evident to his camp that they feel they must destroy not only Clinton, but also every proponent of good policy who would encourage Americans to demand better of them. I have tried thus far in this primary not to go after either Obama or Clinton too often or intensely and often have stayed out of these things or tried to develop some sort of reasonable consensus, but the Obama camp is attacking a progressive policy that I care deeply about and I am now this close woking my butt off to keep him from being the nominee.

    I might rather take my chances with Clinton.  At least she understands the universal importance of this anecdote.

    Parent

    There are only two facilities (none / 0) (#191)
    by Fabian on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:37:55 PM EST
    anywhere near Pomeroy(where she worked).

    The first is Holzer
    The second is O'Bleness

    The third one is in West Virginia.

    Parent

    From my point of view... (5.00 / 5) (#161)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:03:46 PM EST
    No candidate is worth this kind of sacrifice.

    I care that people have access to healthcare a lot more than about this stupid primary race - which is becoming more and more meaningless by the day if people are willing to give up these critical policies like universal or single-payer healthcare.

    I don't hold out much hope for Obama doing anything significant on the healthcare front, but I never imagined he and his supporters would position themselves in opposition to progress.  But they have.

    Yeah... (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by OrangeFur on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:16:35 PM EST
    ... this can of worms is something they don't want to get into. Even the NYT account makes it seem that at worst, Clinton didn't know all the details. Trina Bachtel really did die, after all. You don't want to look like you're trying to score cheap political points over a tragedy like that.

    I'm glad your own story has a happier ending.

    Difficult as it may be to believe... (1.36 / 11) (#2)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:36:21 PM EST
    there are rational reasons to dislike Hillary Clinton.  One of those reasons is her propensity to simply make things up.  I don't know that this particular incident is one of those, but it's not as if there is any lack of references.

    So this is her fault (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by andgarden on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:38:28 PM EST
    because, according to you, she's made things up in the past?

    Parent
    I never said that (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:41:43 PM EST
    I was only responding the Big Tent's repeated assumption that those who dislike HRC do so for only false or irrational reasons.

    Parent
    BTD never said dislike: (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by ahazydelirium on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:45:38 PM EST
    he said hate. And hate is always irrational.

    Parent
    I made no such statement (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:49:56 PM EST
    Now you rely on falsehoods. Your first comment was quite clear about your hatred being irrational.

    Parent
    you most certainly did say that! (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by cpinva on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:31:41 PM EST
    One of those reasons is her propensity to simply make things up.  I don't know that this particular incident is one of those, but it's not as if there is any lack of references.

    what else would you call that? you sir, are both a liar and a cad.

    Parent

    I never said this discrepency was her fault... (none / 0) (#208)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:01:54 PM EST
    In fact, I specifically stated that I didn't know about this incident (in the sentence immediately after the language you highlighted).  

    This makes me a liar? And a cad???  And a "sir"?!

    Parent

    I reject your "propensity (none / 0) (#103)
    by felizarte on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:43:28 PM EST
    to make things up"  that is like saying she is a habitual liar.  This is upsetting.

    Parent
    Your comment (5.00 / 8) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    is incredibly damning - of you. If you had read my post or the Times story you would know that the story came from an Ohio Deputy Sheriff.

    Indeed, there are rational reasons I do not like Hillary Clinton's candidacy - but this is not one of them. And Dems like you, assuming you actually are a Dem - disgust me.

    I have no respect for your dishonesty and complete indifference to actual issues. It bothers me a great deal that you are a typical specimen for what we see from Obama supporters in the blogs.

    Parent

    Sorry BTD, (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:53:36 PM EST
    But I am (and have been since I worked for Mondale) a Democrat. I consider honesty an actual issue, and, coming directly on the heels of this sniper nonsense, concerns over HRC's honesty are hardly irrational (or disgusting, or dishonest - thanks a lot).

    If ad hominem attacks are the sum total of your response (and I see little else), perhaps another "derangement syndrome" ought to be examined.

    Parent

    I've heard there wasn't actually (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:56:00 PM EST
    Sniper fire was there?

    Parent
    No not in that trip (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:23:23 PM EST
    But are you so sure there wasn't a threat or talk on another trip? Are you so sure its a falsehood and not just an error?

    Parent
    That's true (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:24:54 PM EST
    The security team there told her that sniper fire was a problem in that area and that things would be handled accordingly.

    Parent
    I've heard there wasn't actually.... (none / 0) (#207)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:59:38 PM EST
    There were evasive manuvers taken by the pilots. Joe Wilson wrote a great article about it. Kinda like Ireland, too bad Ahern and Adams both backed her up. The Brits behaved badly on that one. Tacky.

    Parent
    Then try BEING HONEST (4.42 / 7) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:55:06 PM EST
    You act as if we do not know if "Clinton made this story up." YOUR WORDS. I have no patience for dishonest poseurs. That means I have no patience for you.

    Parent
    We don't know... (1.00 / 1) (#77)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:30:17 PM EST
    the name of the woman, nor the hospital, yet we somehow know for fact that the story wasn't made up?      While I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt, recent events have made it painfully clear that Clinton's stories are not so deserving.

    I see no reason to grant the Kos entry (or the hospital's response) credence because, as mentioned in this post, we're not even sure if it is the same incident being discussed.  With the same token, HRC is not deserving of blind faith.  Truthfulness is a reputation which must be earned, and it is easily destroyed by getting caught in an untruth.  That is where Hillary stands today.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Trickster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:35:02 PM EST
    If you read the Times story--or even if you read the clips of it in this piece--you'll know that the times verified from the deputy himself that Clinton was told the story by an Ohio sheriff's deputy.  You'll also understand she had no way to vet the story because the deputy didn't know the name of the hospital.

    Parent
    Facts do not matter (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:36:52 PM EST
    to some. It is why I call them dishonest.

    Parent
    Reading is not your forte (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:36:26 PM EST
    I have no doubts about your bad faith now.

    Parent
    BTW (4.20 / 5) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:57:09 PM EST
    To date, you still have no corrected ytour falsehood - that it is possible that Clinton made this story up. You know, if you know how to read, that that is false.

    I levelled a substantive critique of you and your comment. You have no response for it, except more nonsense.

    I care not one whit what you think of me - your words are an indictment of yourself.


    Parent

    This propensity (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:42:26 PM EST
    Doesn't even exist.

    Parent
    To be fair, (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:44:45 PM EST
    this wasn't made up. This was passing along hearsay with no effort to confirm. Kind of like what Bush did with Curveball's warnings about Iraqi WMD. Meanwhile, re: the Media is Out to get Hillary! meme, keep in mind they had to find space for this in between vieo loops of Obama bowling and thoughtful commentary on his taste for $100 ham.

    Parent
    You are foolish if you believe (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:49:14 PM EST
    Obama does not do the same thing. It has been proven he does.

    Some Obama supporters are not smart it seems to me.

    Parent

    I didn't say (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:52:46 PM EST
    that he didn't, in fact I recall at least one instance where he did pass on heresay that was later disproven, and he (or the campaign) corrected the record.

    Parent
    Then you understand how foolish (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:54:07 PM EST
    the Obama blog was to play this game.

    Parent
    I didn't even read (none / 0) (#47)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:06:35 PM EST
    the "Obama blog," once I saw that it was actually just an item at Kos.

    Parent
    By the way, (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:16:39 PM EST
    where is the evidence that the hospital "injected itself?" Why don't you think the comments resulted from the Times going to them to confirm the story? Regardless of who initiated the contact, why is the hospital's only possible motive to attack Hillary - don't they have legitimate interests to protect their reputation, and the confidence of pregnant woman to seek medical care by refuting this false story? Do you think the story, if left unrefuted, might have discouraged any uninsured pregnant women from seeking emergency care?

    Parent
    Sorry, I think something is fishy too (none / 0) (#67)
    by angie on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:24:05 PM EST
    Did the Times go to every hospital in Ohio (remember, Clinton did not say which hospital) until they found one willing to disclose a patient's name, treatment, etc? Even if true, it doesn't prove that Hillary was talking about that hospital and that woman.  It is much more likely the hospital came forward for political reasons.  Heck, reading this story, I'm not even willing to believe that hospital exists.  

    Parent
    A quick Googling (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:31:25 PM EST
    suggests that O'Bleness is the only emergency hospital in Meigs County, OH, where the story was alleged to have taken place. That kind of narrows it down, no?

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:35:39 PM EST
    Clinton did not mention the county. Kee trying to rip her. Your efforts are revealing.

    Parent
    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:56 PM EST
    The hospital jumped into it on its own.

    Parent
    I suggest you read the story (none / 0) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:19 PM EST
    As it EXPRESSLY states that the hospital issued a statement and why.

    Reading is fundamental.

    Parent

    Clinton did not mention the county AFAIK (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by mattt on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:54:13 PM EST
    But she heard the story from a Meigs county deputy, at an event in Meigs county. Maybe the deputy didn't name the hospital because their was no need; in Athens OH I bet the phrase "the hospital" is less ambiguous than it may be for big city bloggers. At your polite request I have re-read the Times story, and still cannot find evidence that the hospital came forward, as opposed to answering question posed by the Times or another reporter. Evidently the Times did find the deputy, who may have told them which hospital it was (I doubt the reverse would be true, that the hospital would tell the Times who the deputy spreading rumors was.) And again, even if they did come forward voluntarily, the hospital has valid reasons for doing so other than attacking Hillary Clinton.

    Parent
    Ok (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:06:09 PM EST
    you just make it up now. This is actually Clinton Derangement Syndrome. you ignore the facts to create a scenario where you can damn her.

    What a ridiculous comment you just wrote.

    Parent

    No hyperbole here, no, sir (none / 0) (#211)
    by Camorrista on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:20:15 PM EST
    This was passing along hearsay with no effort to confirm. Kind of like what Bush did with Curveball's warnings about Iraqi WMD.

    What an apt comparison--Senator Clinton repeats an unchecked anecdote to make a point about universal health care and that's the same as George Bush exploiting a known liar to drag the country into war.

    I feel so stupid for not seeing the analogy, and  I can't tell you how grateful I am that you pointed it out to us.

    No doubt in a few days (or hours) you'll point out to us that the Clintons' donation of 10 percent of their income to their foundation is exactly the same as keeping the money for themselves.  (Hell, it's their foundation, and we know what that means).  And please don't forget to point out that just because the Clintons released a decade's worth of tax returns is no reason to take them at face value--after all, the Clintons  probably employ Mafia accountants.

    And when things get really busy, around convention time, you can always dredge up the Clinton-phobes' favorite comparison and point out to us that her vote on the war was the exact equivalent to sending 4000 young Americans to their deaths.  She's not merely a serial liar, she's a serial murderer (if only by proxy).

    In the words of the song, can't hardly wait.

    Parent

    No hyperbole here, no, sir..... (none / 0) (#217)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:47:45 PM EST
    .... Another psychic moment whilst tuning into the OPRAHSPHERE using my special internet connection.... Sources inside OBAMEDIA have confirmed that there is a definite link between Candidate Clinton and suspected employees within an un- named Clinton enterprise that may or may not be former or current members of the Mafia that is suspected of planting what appeared to be WMD's or at least being seen in the vicinity of the hospital currently under scrutiny for alleged involvement with Sen. Clinton in what appear to be a conspiracy of some sort....
    Although we can not name any sources, it has been confirmed that a conspiracy or what appears to a conspiracy has definitely could possibly and alledgedly occurred...... More details as they become available on OBAMEDIA......

    Parent
    I don't understand (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by delandjim on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:02:01 PM EST
    I don't understand what you mean by 'making things up'.  

    Do you mean like saying you were born because of something that happened when you were five years old?

    Parent

    That is insulting (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Marvin42 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:24:47 PM EST
    Can you list a number of proven things she said that are "made up" and not mistakes or slight exaggerations? Because there is a huge leap from being mistaken, or embellishing a story (we all do it, be honest) and lying purposefully as you accuse.

    Really what has happened to people? Why do some people just see in black and white and have to demonize "the opponent."

    Parent

    Sorry, I'm unable to respond. (none / 0) (#119)
    by fiver5 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:07:59 PM EST
    My guess is that it would take us too far off topic.

    Parent
    Top Secret, I guess (none / 0) (#215)
    by blogtopus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:33:00 PM EST
    Since you are so concerned with the well-being of this blog and it's readers, I'm sure you'll save us all the time of pointing you thorough debunkings of these 'lies' and find them yourself, no?

    Parent
    Obama simply makes things up! (none / 0) (#83)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:33:30 PM EST
    A year ago - Obama was claiming he "barely knew" Rezko - while simultaneously refusing to meet with Chicago reporters who knew otherwise.
    A year ago - Obama was claiming his father's connection to the Kennedy family. He cited it again during the Kennedy endorsement.
    Obama states he's "been against the war from the start" - ignoring his voting record on the war.

    Parent
    The issue here is... (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by mbuchel on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:47:59 PM EST
    not whether such cases do happen in the country.  There are thousands upon thousands of tragic stories related to the cost of health care in the country.
    The problem is that by telling a story that now appears to be untrue, the issue becomes HRC's relationship with the truth rather than the real problem of health care.
    As a candidate, if you have a reputation for stretching the truth/lying at will - take your pick, it makes it very difficult to win a debate, even if you are on the right side of the argument.
    This is why she is a weaker candidate than Obama come the fall.  Reputations matter, and hers regarding honesty and integrity is brutal.  Just look at the polling numbers.

    No the issue is (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:54:06 PM EST
    Obama supporters conflating every deviation away from absolute literal truth with lying and in so doing hurting liberal causes.


    Parent
    Go talk to Taylor Marsh (5.00 / 0) (#123)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:10:17 PM EST
    There is a lot of tearing-down-liberal-causes going around.

    Parent
    The mirror image of dailykos (none / 0) (#181)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 04:04:57 PM EST
    Exists only to provide balance.


    Parent
    That is what deranged Obama supporters say (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:58:24 PM EST
    But many of them have no interest in the issues.

    Certainly you seem not to.

    Parent

    Thanks for the delete (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:05:09 PM EST
    Not only does it take away the comment it disallows me the opportunity to escalate the conflict.

    Which is a good thing, I think.

    Parent

    you assume facts not in evidence. (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by cpinva on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:19:03 PM EST
    The problem is that by telling a story that now appears to be untrue, the issue becomes HRC's relationship with the truth rather than the real problem of health care.

    if you actually read the story (poorly written as it is), it specifically noted that sen. clinton never identified, by name, either the patient or the hospital. so, again, where is the "factual evidence" that she "lied"?

    please limit your response to confirmable facts.

    Parent

    Yes, and (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by plf1953 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:25:14 PM EST
    now that the hospital has come out denying this happened, it (the hospital) is now unquestionably telling the truth ...

    ergo, Hillary has "lied."

    Take it from someone who recently experienced the malpractice perpetrated by a hospital on his parents, one of whom died in the hospital's "care," hospitals lie to protect themselves and their holier-than-thou physician staff.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#96)
    by Trickster on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    The word "lie" connotes intent.

    Parent
    Sorry? (none / 0) (#172)
    by plf1953 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:20:04 PM EST
    In my parents' case, the hospital lied intentially to cover its a**.

    I don't believe for a moment that Hillary has lied.

    Its Obama-supporter hysterics that intend to imply a lie by Hillary.

    Parent

    x (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by CognitiveDissonance on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:08:29 PM EST
    This is really funny considering the very real and proven lies Obama has told about more important issues: 1-the long trail of lies about Rezko starting with he only did 5 hours of work for him leading up to he knew him for 17 years and the guy has been his biggest fundraiser, and he helped him buy his mansion; 2-the trail of lies around NAFTA-gate. First, the Canadian TV station was lying, no one had contacted Canada, on up until the Canadian embassy offered proof; 3-the lies about Rev. Wright and what he had heard in the pews - at least 4 versions, and he himself still confuses which is the latest version when someone asks him a question about it. Sometimes he goes to one of his earlier lies until it is pointed out what he said in his speech.

    And these are just the most material that relate to the presidency. There are so many lies in the Obama story that there are several sites devoted to just cataloging Obama's lies. There is one site that has 68 documented lies on various subjects.


    Parent

    You are no suspended (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:07:42 PM EST
    I deleted one comment hoping you would follow the rules of the site. Instead you went further. No more from you today.

    Parent
    NOW suspended (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:08:08 PM EST
    The issue here is... (none / 0) (#205)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:51:44 PM EST
    Rezko pot calling kettle.... What? LOL

    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#9)
    by maritza on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:41:39 PM EST
    this story is that big of a deal.

    it is to those who believe St. Obama never lies (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:50:24 PM EST
    this is a non-story, I would be very surprised (none / 0) (#12)
    by demps on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:42:50 PM EST
    if it gains much more traction

    KO's working on (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:44:26 PM EST
    A special comment right now.

    Nothing surprises me anymore.


    Parent

    yeah, Ko might, but I think even most supporters (none / 0) (#27)
    by demps on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:50:01 PM EST
    of Obama won't see much to this story, at least I don't.

    Parent
    For real??? n/t (none / 0) (#201)
    by Faust on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 05:35:28 PM EST
    I will take notice (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:43:49 PM EST
    That Diary is not recommended.

    Maybe a sign of some improvement there at the Obama blog.


    it was on the rec list earlier (none / 0) (#108)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:51:05 PM EST
    Seemed odd to me too. (none / 0) (#21)
    by ajain on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:47:16 PM EST
    Anyone else feel that the hospital was pushed by the Obama campaign. That's what I felt when I read the story this morning.

    Seems like opposition research work.
    Also seems they are baiting her into a hard-hitting campaign. I mean if they try to paint her as liar, she could paint him as a know-nothing baffoon - or something worse.

    I do not know WHAT pushed them (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 12:50:46 PM EST
    But their behavior makes no sense.

    Parent
    Because I get to suspend you (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:10:49 PM EST
    And because I can read.

    You are suspended. you know the rule that you do not get to attack me or the site.

    You just did it. No more from you today. And your comment will be deleted.

    This is for proseandpromise (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:11:49 PM EST
    Who is suspended for the entire weekend. All comment will be deleted.

    Parent
    jaman (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:28:37 PM EST
    You are suspended.

    Thank you BTD! (none / 0) (#86)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:34:14 PM EST


    BTD: I think some trolls (none / 0) (#100)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:41:10 PM EST
    actually get a kick out of getting booted or having their comments deleted.

    They come here just for that purpose.

    Sad, isn't it?

    Parent

    No off t comments (none / 0) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 01:46:43 PM EST
    BTD : I think some trolls.... (none / 0) (#209)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:07:25 PM EST
    I think they might compare digital pictures of notches on the bed post.... See who's up on the count.

    Parent
    I was thanking BTD for this diary (none / 0) (#174)
    by Josey on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 03:32:57 PM EST
    Sorry for the confusion.


    Parent
    I think they are responding (none / 0) (#120)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:08:04 PM EST
    to a question presented either by Sontag or someone else. It would be against the law to just come out and name the patient and circumstances. They had to be asked by someone.  

    If it was Sontag, she doesn't say she contacted the hospital nor asked questions.  Now I guess the question is; who contacted them and why they were contacted.  Since Clinton did not name the facility nor the patient, someone was trying to make a story out of it to use on Clinton.


    Answering a question (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:23:15 PM EST
    would be just as illegal as volunteering it.

    But you misread the story anyway. they came out an demanded Clinton stop telling the story.

    Parent

    This story reminds me of (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by myiq2xu on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:56:00 PM EST
    when Paula Jones emerged from nowhere to defend her reputation when no one knew who she was.

    Right-wing meme's and right-wing tactics.

    What happened to the Democratic Party?

    Parent

    Comments closed (none / 0) (#214)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 06:31:59 PM EST