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About Those Proud Hillary Haters

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Media
Posted on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 05:59:43 PM EST
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By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

In a response I took to be directed at Jerome Armstrong, Tom Watson and me, Markos writes:

You know those rabid Clinton supporters who think everyone is a sellout because of inadequate Hlllary worship (like this site, Keith Olbermann, Howard Dean, Stephanie Miller, etc)

I do not know what Howard Dean and Stephanie Miller have to do with it, but if Kos is equating his site to Olbermann's antics, that is saying he is proud to be a Hillary Hater. But to bring Markos back to the point, he endorsed this:

It's bizarre, but I don't really consider [Hillary Clinton] a Dem any more.

If refraining from saying Hillary Clinton is not a Democrat constitutes Hillary worship for Daily Kos, I think he confirms my point - the destruction of the Clinton Wing of the Party, Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Legacy is what his web site is about now. Drumming Clinton supporters out of the Democratic Party is what his web site is about. If that is what Barack Obama's campaign will be about in November, he will lose. The Creative Class Wing of the Democratic Party is not enough.

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    About Those Proud Hillary Haters | 183 comments (183 topical)

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    The rumor of their greatness (5.00 / 10) (#1)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:06:34 PM EST
    is greatly exaggerated.

    And the working class will finally disappear. (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by Lysis on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:07:32 PM EST
    Two major parties represented by elites with disdain for the common man.

    Finally, those pesky working class people will disappear.  Political conversation will continue as if they never existed.

    Hillary's the only one left speaking for us, and the deck is stacked against her.  

    And the working class will finally disappear.... (none / 0) (#173)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:56:23 AM EST
    and become the new base for Bloomberg/Hagel third party...LOL
    Dean the putz et,al. will look up and see that 2/3 of the traditional democratic base are gone as the WC don't like the party built by FDR being HIJACKED by the left, a rigged election, and a 48 state strategy. I swear sometimes I think Dean et, al are at best apolitical....at worst republican operatives, they have bungled this so badly....

    [ Parent ]
    I Will Be More Than Happy To Let The (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:11:11 PM EST
    Boys In The Blogs bring in Obama's victory in November without me.

    The most infuriating aspect of this for me (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:14:22 PM EST
    is that if Obama is nominated, my least bad remaining option will be to do everything I can to make sure that he's elected President.

    He doesn't deserve it, and neither does the Hillary-hating "creative class," but NO ONE deserves John McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    I have a slightly better option, IMO (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by ahazydelirium on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:23:47 PM EST
    If Obama is the nominee, I devised this middle-of-the-road approach for myself: I will actively campaign AGAINST McCain on the issues without actually actively supporting Obama. My own personal nonpartisan, nonprofit 527. Or something.

    It's the best my conscience will allow at this point, but I still haven't solved the quandary of the vote in November. Not sure what to do about that: I can't vote for McCain, but will that be enough to assuage my problems with voting for Obama? Unclear.

    [ Parent ]

    I will talk down McCain (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:25:50 PM EST
    and vote for Obama. Figuring out how to talk up Obama will be difficult. I sure hope he gets a new shtick--though I doubt he will.

    [ Parent ]
    This is MY problem (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:10:28 AM EST
    We are in deep do do right now. It will take experience and Washington Know how to get it all straightened out and on the road back to normal. I truly in my heart do not believe that BHO is that person. Truly. I use to think he might be, but I now realize he is not. I don't want McCain, but I do not want Obama either. The person elected MUST turn the country around. I am afraid that BHO can not do it and the Democrats will be out in the cold for a very long time. At the same time, in as much as I am no longer a Dem according to the other blogs because Hillary is no longer a Dem, I am under no obligation to vote for Obama. I won't vote for McCain but I guess I will have to do a write in. It would be the first time in my long voting for the Dem candidate (insert name).But I have to stop that as I would not vote for someone I did not feel was qualified for the job. I still can not understand with the millions of people in this country, we are left with few choices. Well, on to Tuesday voting. I will go Tuesday and cast my vote and hope she wins big. The weather looks pretty good if the showers hold. You know us old people over 40, can't get wet. Might melt. Not.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't Lie Well Enough To Campaign For Obama (none / 0) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:42:48 PM EST
    He doesn't need my money and I will not contribute to someone who has crossed so many of my personal boundaries of what is acceptable.

    There is an extremely slim chance he could get my vote. If contrary to current polls, he is close enough to beat McCain in MO in November I might rather than contribute to a McCain win. A lot depends on how many more issues I consider core Democratic values and programs he is willing to put on the table like Social Security during the run up to the election.

    [ Parent ]

    I will vote for him without compunction (none / 0) (#40)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:45:08 PM EST
    It won't be the first time that I've had to compromise on my values to choose the lesser of evils, and it won't be the last either.

    That's democracy.

    [ Parent ]

    That Of Course Is Your Choice (none / 0) (#44)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:50:28 PM EST
    I've voted for the lesser of two evils on a regular basis but right now I'm not sure that Obama will be less harmful in the long run than McCain. No question that McCain will be harmful but Obama might be as bad but in different ways.

    [ Parent ]
    You said it. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by LHinSeattle on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:10:07 PM EST
    Why would I vote for a "Dem" who admires Reagan, wants his foreign policy to be like that of Bush I, etc?

    [ Parent ]
    exactly (none / 0) (#171)
    by moll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:33:07 AM EST
    Why would I vote for a "Dem" who admires Reagan, wants his foreign policy to be like that of Bush I, etc?

    ...and in the name of the Democratic Party.

    That's what kills me. I am afraid he would be doing Republican politics but in our name.

    Who'd be opposing?

    [ Parent ]

    I think of (none / 0) (#180)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:36:31 AM EST
    Obama and his supporters as being like the Blue Dog Democrats in Congress. And I know how I feel about them.

    [ Parent ]
    I am far more uncomfortable (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:39:46 PM EST
    with an Obama presidency than a McCain presidency.  As far as Republicans go, McCain isn't difficult to stomach.  We know where he stands and it's closer to the center than the right on most issues.  He seems like a reasonable enough guy to me.

    I've said before that I believe a McCain presidency would be the same as GHWB - one term with a Dem congress and nothing getting done.  Then Hillary will have another chance in 2012.  By then, Obama will have had plenty of time to be fully vetted and exposed for the same-old-politician he is.  

    Obama is simply not an option for me.  He may be great with a prepared speech, but listen to him in the debates. The uuuuhhs and the stammering alone are a dealbreaker.  I can't tolerate another president who's utterly incapable of thinking on his feet and speaking off the cuff.

    I choked back bile when I voted for Kerry.  I'll never do that again.  If I can't have Hillary, I'll vote for McCain without losing a blink of sleep.  

    [ Parent ]

    I know what you (none / 0) (#182)
    by kenoshaMarge on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 09:41:57 AM EST
    mean about voting for Kerry. I loathed the man but I loathed Bush more.

    I vowed after Kerry didn't put up a fight for every vote in Ohio that I wasn't gonna hold my nose and vote for someone I didn't respect ever again.

    I cast my first vote for Humphrey in 1969. I didn't like him but I held my nose and voted for him. And then I did the same for Kerry in 2004.

    I don't know how many more elections I'll be around to vote in  but I promised myself that every vote I cast from here on out will be for someone, not against someone else unless that against vote is on a par with Bush/Cheney.


    [ Parent ]

    I know - It is really a bad situation (none / 0) (#60)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:08:47 PM EST
    I wrote earlier that we are obligated to do as much as we can to get Obama elected to maintain our and Clinton's influence in the party.

     Is that still the right approach?  I don't know anymore.  If there were no troops in Iraq I would be tempted to just let McCain beat these idiots like a drum.  But I'm not willing to let more troops die there under McCain for four years just to prove a point.

    I'll hope Obama talks some sense into the boyz at some point.

    [ Parent ]

    My husband and I are standing... (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Shainzona on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:44:51 PM EST
    right next to you!

    Come this November, we will vote only down-ticket if Barack Obama is the Dem. nominee.  AND, we will evaluate down-ticket races based on his/her support for HRC in the primary.  

    We have been saying that for two months and Obama supporters scoff at us.  But trust me....they are wrong - wrong in their support of an inexperienced candidate at this most important time in the history of this country...and wrong about my husband and I not voting for him.  Ever.

    [ Parent ]

    I've gotten this (5.00 / 4) (#152)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:34:42 AM EST
    from active dues paying Democratic Party members.  Won't support the top of the ticket if Obama is the nominee. Support the rest of the ticket but not the top.

    Obama is not the example of a Democratic president I want and I'm not alone.  

    I looked forward to 2008 as the chance to elect a strong Democrat.  Someone with good Democratic Party values and not just for the current crises but for a long term Democratic ascendancy and with that the moderation of the GOP.

    That's why I supported John Edwards with every dollar I could give.  

    In recent weeks Hillary Clinton's bold proposals to deal with some of our most pressing domestic problems, her detail plans for straightening out the executive branch, to completely turn back privatization in government, including the elimination of private armies like Blackwater have made me an enthusiastic Clinton supporter.  I've always admired Hillary Clinton for her striking intelligence, tireless work ethic and resilience to the most shamefully dishonest, cowardly attacks that anyone in public life has been subjected to in my lifetime.  That she's withstood the onslaught with grace and dignity is testament to both her splendid temperament and intelligence.  An ideal president. Hillary Clinton is the Democrat we need in the White House to begin an era of Democratic ascendancy.

    Given ALL evidence, his lackluster domestic policy proposals, his personal judgement and brittleness, his shameful personal attacks on a fellow Democrat and his willingness to sacrifice critical bedrock progressive programs; Obama is NOT the example of a Democratic President that is needed to establish that ascendancy.

    [ Parent ]

    amen, sister! (none / 0) (#137)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:41:37 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Elsewhere on the big orange (5.00 / 10) (#4)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:11:47 PM EST
    Markos commented in another thread that he wished that Clinton would stop demonizing San Francisco. His link on that comment, presumably the "evidence" that Clinton was trashing San Francisco, was to an Americablog post linking to ... Markos and another dKos blogger. The echo chamber is complete.

    Hillary in SF (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:13:12 PM EST
    I saw her there and she did not insult anyone.  She sort of united everyone.  Not putting people down, you know.  

    [ Parent ]
    That's impossible. Obama is the uniter. [nt] (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by ahazydelirium on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:18:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That description doesn't work for them (5.00 / 13) (#14)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:19:03 PM EST
    They have to believe that Clinton is evil, or they will feel guilty about tearing her apart in the name of getting Obama elected. There is no room for reality in their world.

    [ Parent ]
    that desription... (none / 0) (#174)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:02:24 AM EST
    it's a common fasist tactic....Demonize the opposition. Obfuscation...Obfuscation...

    [ Parent ]
    Wow really! (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:27:23 PM EST
    Unless you already have shared, please share!  I will look and see if you posted elsewhere about this though.  Cool.

    Also, demonizing San Francisco?  C'mon.  There are way more important battles to fight.

    [ Parent ]

    Mayor Gavin newsom is her (none / 0) (#56)
    by hairspray on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:05:02 PM EST
    San Francisco chair and a big supporter.  He even went to Iowa to walk the precincts for her one weekend.

    [ Parent ]
    I remember, long ago in a galaxy (5.00 / 9) (#41)
    by litigatormom on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:46:08 PM EST
    far away, Markos repeatedly reminding people that the mission of The Site That Cannot Be Named was to elect Democrats.  So naturally, since the Oracle has decided Clinton is evil, she can't possibly be a Democrat.

     Markos is not interested in unifying the Democratic Party. He is not interested in ensuring that those of us who have not supported Obama in the primaries bring our enthusiasm and dedication to the general election.  

    So he has decided that he doesn't need us, and that we're not really Democrats.

    All I can say is, it looks like Bob Shrum isn't the worst Democratic political strategist ever. Or maybe he is, since for my money, Markos isn't really a Democrat. No one who is more interested in grinding half the party down than winning the general election could possibly be a real Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't even think he cares if we win (5.00 / 6) (#50)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:56:55 PM EST
    If he cared even a little bit about winning the Presidency, he would be using his weight to moderate the Obama supporters. He isn't. I think he see's this election as a tool that will destroy the Democratic Party and create a new coalition of young people and idealists who can rebuild the party in a "better" way.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:12:35 PM EST
    He is just interested in playing kingmaker.  The policies of the king are immaterial.

    [ Parent ]
    I have to believe this is true too. They want to (none / 0) (#159)
    by thereyougo on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:29:58 AM EST
    fashion the "new democratic' party with Republican lite ideals. Remember Kos USED to be a Republican.

    Their so called progressive goals for the people powered politics is leaving me in the dust and alot of us baby boomers who thought Democrats were doing ok we weren't complaining, until the Rs began to steal elections.

    I'm not sure where these 30 something year olds are thinking they're going with their strange ideas, but they can go without me.

    [ Parent ]

    new party alignments? (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by moll on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 06:40:52 AM EST
    Maybe all the former Democrats flooding in to the Republican party have a shot at stealing that party back from the wingnuts. I am not optimistic, though.

    I am concerned about how the center seems to be disappearing here in America - it is already all but gone in places like Israel, and see how that is turning out?

    At this point, I would defend the existence of the political center above my love or my hate of either party. When the Democrats are as bad as the Republicans, things are really bad.

    [ Parent ]

    I sent a lteter to the DNC/Dean today (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by hairspray on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:10:43 PM EST
    and said in essence:

    I expect the DNC to treat Hillary fairly.  That means that the SD's vote after all the votes are counted and that includes MI and FL.  If that doesn't happen, this long term dues paying hard working woman will register independent and leave the pary.

    [ Parent ]

    Hilarious (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:44:57 AM EST
    That's reminiscent of Cheney citing a New York Times article to make his point when all along the administration had leaked the Times' article.

    Sites like KOS and TPM are really into using Cheney style dishonesty. Talk about going over to the dark side.

    [ Parent ]

    Are the republican roots of Kos (4.20 / 5) (#36)
    by Leisa on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:40:39 PM EST
     showing?  

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't notice any lovefest for Obama or (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by Teresa on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:12:01 PM EST
    Clinton either last night. I thought Edwards stole the show.

    Edwards was WONDERFUL (5.00 / 8) (#30)
    by litigatormom on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:35:58 PM EST
    The "Ed WORD." Brilliant.

    [ Parent ]
    All 3 did well (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by oldpro on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:40:08 PM EST
    performancewise...Edwards got the best material from the writers, tho...he had the longest and funniest bit and he hit his marks 'on the money!'

    Very funny...

    Wonder if he and Hil had a few minutes to talk in the green room?

    [ Parent ]

    That broke my heart (5.00 / 6) (#43)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:50:20 PM EST
    I want Edwards to be the candidate so much. We would not only be a shoe in to win, but he is  ridiculously qualified and it's a tragedy that he had to drop becaue the media wanted a black man v. white woman contest.

    [ Parent ]
    I still think... (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by NWHiker on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:06:39 PM EST
    that Obama and Clinton should drop out and ask their delegates to vote for Edwards.

    When chicken have teeth, right?

    [ Parent ]

    Yup. (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:06:31 PM EST
    I'm still a Gore supporter.

    Who can really compare to Gore?  Too bad he's too smart to set foot in politics again.

    [ Parent ]

    broken heart... (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:07:10 AM EST
    You can thank Kerry for that one...The back stabbing in endorsements in this election has gotten sickening. Don't count Edwards out, as he has handled himself excellently and has a bright future. He's solid.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't either (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:47:17 PM EST
    Colbert interviewed a pro-Obama polician who wrote a bood about his experiences in Iraq.  He was pretty enthusiastic about Obama and Colbert played along - but you can never tell when Colbert is serious and when he's play-acting. The Clinton bit was amusing if stilted. Edwards showed no preference at all. I stopped watching before Obama came on, but what I read didn't indicate anything special.

    [ Parent ]
    Me too (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:13:55 PM EST
    He both got the best of the writing, and gave the best performance.  It was a joy to watch, and well-deserved.

    [ Parent ]
    Quiz for KOS and his like (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:12:09 PM EST
    Question 1: Now which wing of the Democratic Party won two terms of presidential office in the last umpteen years of the 1900s (too lazy to look itup, but you get my drift)

    Answer 2:  The Clinton wing.

    Question 2:  Who do you think might have a formula for obtaiing the presidency and competently and popularly keeping it?

    Answer 2:  The Clinton wing.

    Abandon the Clinton wing at your and the Democrats' peril, KOS.  

    The Obamican wing is not the way.

    They have not learned! (5.00 / 7) (#18)
    by felizarte on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:21:52 PM EST
    Gore distanced himself from Clinton during his campaign and ended up losing his own state of Tennessee and a couple more states that could have made Florida not so pivotal, knowing that Jeb Bush was governor of the state.

    Well, I still cling to my faith that someone up there is still looking out for this country.  And like the words of the beloved Kate Smith song, ". . .  stand beside her, and guide her, through the night with the light from above." And that is my prayer too, for Hillary.

    The evil that has been perpetrated must not be allowed to continue.

    [ Parent ]

    They have not learned... (none / 0) (#176)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:13:16 AM EST
    I agree with you...Although Gore has not come out publicly to endorse Clinton..Like the Clintons he is a ( New Democrat ) and that is the centrist platform she is representing. The party either continues the centrist path interrupted in the HIJACK of 2000 or it veers back to the left ( Kennedy, Pelosi, Kerry ). That is what this is about. The left did'nt want to give up the power they had held throughout the 70-80's.

    [ Parent ]
    Bill Clinton was the only Democrat (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:10:59 PM EST
    to win two terms in the White House since FDR.

    Truman and Johnson were not elected to their first term, they took over when the predecessor died.  Carter was a 1-termer.

    [ Parent ]

    Not Sure What Crawled Up Kos' Behind... (5.00 / 9) (#9)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:15:04 PM EST
    But it isn't pretty and he has become exactly what he started DailyKos to rail against not having a place for leftwinger's voices to be heard.  He has become much too big for his britches and drunk with power, not unlike Rush Limbaugh.  There is no room for your voice unless it is to stroke Obama's ego. And, if I want the kind of vile spew I see on there, I should just go to a rightwing nut site or HuffPo.

    In his latest Newsweek column (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:32:01 PM EST
    He argues both that Clinton's actions are destroying the party and that the long campaign is good for both the party and for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Is he still using that stupid meme? (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:08:49 PM EST
    Destroying the party?

    I must have missed all the Ds fleeing the party and voting for Ron Paul in the R primary.

    [ Parent ]

    I definitely can live with differing views... (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by rghojai on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:37:40 PM EST
    ...but what's been unfortunate and perplexing about a decent bit of the Big Orange stuff doesn't hold water--things like it being fair game to run amok on Clinton because it's over (putting aside the question of whether or not it is)... when it was clearly going on a long time ago.

    Not a huge deal, but a bit sad to feel like there's a fact-based view that the approach taken over there is not one of honesty and integrity.

    [ Parent ]

    I believe (none / 0) (#154)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:51:22 AM EST
    it's because KOS fancies himself to be a king maker.

    His ego was getting out of hand before the primary season.

    [ Parent ]

    I frankly think (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:15:26 PM EST
    this is kos just making noise for the sake of making noise. But it's posts like that that make me glad I don't participate there anymore.

    Suppose that is true (5.00 / 7) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:20:12 PM EST
    then he is being incredibly irresponsible.

    [ Parent ]
    Being a loose cannon gets you hits (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:23:07 PM EST
    and if you're big enough already, it can get you quoted by the big boys.

    [ Parent ]
    I suppose the alternative observation (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:24:37 PM EST
    is that he actually thinks he's making sense. That would explain the self-satisfied attitude.

    Who knows.

    [ Parent ]

    I wonder when he'll realize (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:12:01 PM EST
    that he hasn't Crashed The Gates at all and that his blog has been co-opted by The Establishment.  (Or become it - same difference.)

    I might have a different opinion if the community said one thing and the front pagers another.  

    [ Parent ]

    He has crashed them. (none / 0) (#169)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 04:39:38 AM EST
    Look how many people profess to never reading Dk now.

    [ Parent ]
    Destroying Democrats was always his goal (5.00 / 6) (#12)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:17:26 PM EST
    Markos has never been a fan of Clinton OR the Democratic Party. He wants to "Crash the Gates" of the party, essentially tearing it apart and rebuilding it in his image, using an army of bloggers. His site has never been very sympathetic to the complexities or subtleties of politics, nor is there any evidence that he or most of his adherents have read historical accounts of what happens in most revolutions. They think that it's simply a matter of being right. If Pelosi really wanted to end the Iraq War, she could. If Reid really cared about bringing Bush to justice, he could. And if they won't do it, then we'll just get them out of office and do it for them.

    Donate Now! (5.00 / 6) (#26)
    by lansing quaker on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:30:56 PM EST
    To Ned Lamont?

    Every time I see dKos spiral more and more into the Anti-Anything Clinton (or "DLC"), I just wax harmony on Ned Lamont.  They screamed and screamed on the Primary, and those netroots couldn't carry him on his own in a GE.  

    Not to say Lieberman and Hillary are even comparable, but I think the "WIN WIN WIN!" goal in this Primary is comparable.

    This need for righteousness is virulent.  Even on the small scale Michigan-centric blogs, the chorus rang up that our Governor is "DLC" and not progressive enough.

    It's not the party or even about ideology and policy anymore.  It's devloved into this binary war for being "right."

    [ Parent ]

    The charge against (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 12:59:41 AM EST
    Granholm by these clowns is another example of the unrealistic world these people live in.  They seem to have forgotten that Republicans control the state Senate and they've done everything possible to thwart even the most arcane sensible acts.

    [ Parent ]
    National Blogs. (none / 0) (#183)
    by lansing quaker on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 10:18:08 AM EST
    National blogs don't understand State politics, and they often could care less.  

    Michigan is a "blue" State.  Texas is a "red" State.  And it is never more nuanced than that.

    The cries against Granholm came well before the primary fracas, because a lot of people fail to realize the State isn't just Ann Arbor and the college towns.  She's centrist!  Aiieee!  

    The sad part is that most of these "centrists" try to get "Creative Class" more political clout, but also realize they have to win elections by doing things for those horrible clingers, too.  

    C'est la vie.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama supporters think ALL Centrists (none / 0) (#71)
    by Josey on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:20:34 PM EST
    are members of the DLC. Oops!
    Obama has been identified as a Centrist by reporters, media pundits, and Dems endorsing him - while his DK followers claim he's a Progressive.
    Obama is so shallow and noncommittal that he's whatever people need him to be to satisfy their desperation for "hope and change."

    [ Parent ]
    The dkos obection to DLC only shows (5.00 / 6) (#84)
    by tigercourse on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:25 PM EST
    up when they disagree with the politician. They really like Richardson, Napolitano and Sebelius over there. Kos want 2 of those 3 as Vice President. All of them are DLC. All are more conservative then Clinton. They don't apply the "down with DLC!" rule universally.

    [ Parent ]
    Kos is doing his job well (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by cygnus on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:26:24 PM EST
    I will never vote for Obama. There's something very disturbing about that whole Fingergate video.  The pathological narcissism, the creepy Obamtrons in the crowd.  I shudder to think what he's going to do to the Democratic Party.  

    I am not going to watch a vid (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Fabian on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:14:42 PM EST
    to see if Obama did or did not flip the bird.

    There's plenty of evidence of his MO and his goals that one gesture won't make a difference to me.  (Unless that gesture was a long winded and heart felt concession speech.)

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe I am too old to get it (none / 0) (#46)
    by litigatormom on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:52:18 PM EST
    I watched two different versions of the video -- one that was dead center, and one that was to Obama's right.

    In the former, he looked like he was flipping the bird -- but because of the angle, it was hard to be sure.  But in the latter, it looked like he was using his pinky finger to scratch his face. I watched that clip five times to make sure.

    Is there some significance to the pinky finger, or was there more than one finger incident?

    [ Parent ]

    pinky finger (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by angie on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:24:06 PM EST
    common sign on the streets that your man has a tiny you-know-what.  I think he did give her the bird for the following reasons: 1. The crowds' reaction; 2. An AA guy in glasses and an orange shirt laughs and leans over to a guy next to him immediately afterward, apparently explaining what happened; 3. Obama's grin after the alleged "scratch;"  4. what he was actually saying at the moment, and his significant pause to "scratch;" and 5. seconds later he does the "dirt off the shoulders" sign from the Jay-Z video.   The reason he did it is because he knew he could get away with it because a. people who are too good themselves to believe he would actually do that would give him the benefit of the doubt and b. he and his supporters would drown out the voices of those who do believe he did it with their "outrage" that we could be so evil to think he did.  However, points 1-5 above belie the arguments of b.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama definitely learned... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by white n az on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:48:11 PM EST
    (from Jeremiah Wright perhaps), how to gesture to keep people engaged.

    He makes a lot of hand gestures, twisting the knife, brushing off his shoulder, etc.

    These gestures don't just happen by accident...like scratching his cheek with his middle finger at the exact moment he refers to Hillary before he takes a pregnant pause to gauge the response.

    [ Parent ]

    the pinky finger was at the start... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by white n az on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:45:40 PM EST
    of the longer video...the bird flip came in at approximate 1 minute 20 seconds in that video. If you are listenting to the audio, the clue is when he is talking about Hillary being in her element.

    In the short video, there is only the bird toss from a shallow angle and of course the Hillary in her element words.

    [ Parent ]

    I think there are two videos (none / 0) (#53)
    by dianem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:59:55 PM EST
    I saw one with the possible flip-off (I don't think he did it intentionally) and another in which he scratched his face with his pinky and then, later, did some kind of elaborate brushing of dust off his clothes. It was a bit strange, actually.

    [ Parent ]
    it's the same speech (none / 0) (#83)
    by angie on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:18 PM EST
    he "scratches" HIS left cheek (on the right when viewing) with his pinky.  Moments later, he "scratches" HIS right cheek (on the left when viewing) with his middle finger.  Moments after that, he does the "dirt off your shoulders" sign (from the Jay-Z song/video).  I think you have seen two different parts of the same speech.

    [ Parent ]
    pinky finger (none / 0) (#163)
    by Zee on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:53:32 AM EST
    You just didn't watch the right clip, or else didn't watch long enough.  Before he flipped the bird he scratched or touched his face with the pinky.  Then he used the middle finger.

    Later on he did the other lewd gestures of brushing bird poop off his shoulders and wiping dog sh!t off his shoe.

    [ Parent ]

    Unbelievable (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by standingup on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:30:59 PM EST
    I clicked thru on the link and see they are trying to make the Clintons into bigots now too.  What's left that they haven't used?      

    A few months ago we were united (5.00 / 10) (#29)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:34:27 PM EST
    and Hillary was the frontrunner.

    Then Barack Obama came along to "unite" us.

    What happened?

    The tendency at DKos... (5.00 / 8) (#31)
    by citizen53 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:37:31 PM EST
    is movement toward a totalitarianism that would make Orwell shudder.

    Too much ideological rigidity that overlooks principles in the fight for the cause of electing a candidate who spends more than anyone in history to market an illusion of change.

    It is like the Revolutionary Guard weeding out any and all dissent.  Look how wonderfully that Iranian group has evolved.

    It is antithetical to progressive principles of tolerance, respect, and diversity.

    After being called a Red Stater over there for making criticism from the left side of the spectrum, I see a site as a place filled with power hungry people who have no real sense of history or context or proportionality.  It thinks that conformity to the leader, Kos or Obama, is what defines what is right.

    That type of behavior was once owned by Free Republic, but no longer.  The hate spewed now at the so-called reality based community shows that it is not any smarter, despite the claims to the contrary.  

    You're absolutely right. (5.00 / 5) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:42:57 PM EST
    What I see is a mirror image of the Bush supporters. Anything Obama does is okay. It doesn't matter that for years everyone was for universal health care but now isn't because Obama isn't for it.

    [ Parent ]
    No no no (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by litigatormom on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:53:08 PM EST
    Obama's proposal IS for universal healthcare because he is proposiing it.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm still scratching my head... (none / 0) (#102)
    by white n az on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:52:06 PM EST
    on how universal health care allows people not to be enrolled. How is that universal?

    I always thought universal meant universal...I mean dictionary.com says...


    1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience.

    2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.

    3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service.

    I must be reading the wrong dictionary because nowhere does it say most or some.


    [ Parent ]

    Perhaps overstated (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:40:26 PM EST
    but not by much.

    [ Parent ]
    Give it time (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by citizen53 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:54:16 PM EST
    Sadly, the Obama model is eerily Bush like, the way it uses the tools of money to manipulate.  1/4 Billion dollars has worked to perfection.

    Most sad is that if they turn off too many in the electorate with their tactics and behavior that contradict their stated purpose, we end up with McCain.

    I suspect that Obama will govern no differently than he has campaigned, purely top down, insulated, self-promoting.  Give them a slogan to adopt and they will fall over themselves.  It is all about illusion anyway.  That much we have learned about America, money, celebrity, and manipulation.    

    Imagine how bitter it will be when they turn on Obama and his marketing techniques for governing.  They invariably turn on everyone.

    [ Parent ]

    Time will tell (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Sunshine on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:38:36 PM EST
    I look at some of the blogs supporting Obama and some of them are downright nasty, like Americablog, it is hard to imagine that if Obama wins the nomination, they are going to expect Hillary supporters to fall in line and support Obama... I just don't know if I could ever vote for Obama, I am just not use to being treated this way... I will vote for Democrats in ever other office..  I also don't think I could vote for McCain...  Being in Texas I don't think I will swing any election but there must be people in states where it will count that must feel the same way....  Divided gouvernment might not be so bad, it worked pretty well under Clinton...

    I believe (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:40:00 PM EST
    that Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall and can't be put back together. The more this goes on, the less likely it'll be that either Obama or Clinton can win in Nov. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but I know lots of people who will abandon the party in Nov. if Obama's the nominee.

    I had a dinner party the other week and the talk turned to politics. Anyway, most were saying Obama vs. McCain is the absolute worst choice the've seen in a long time.

    Sadly, I agree (5.00 / 8) (#86)
    by Leisa on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:28:48 PM EST
    It is just a travesty, how quickly some people in our party will resort to hateful tactics if you disagree with them.  I am white 42 year old woman, and I support Hillary. That makes me a laughable, uneducated racist who no longer happens to be a democrat as well... or so I am told.
    I had reasons other than the hyperbole that fills the media for supporting Hillary.  I am a Texan, and when I went to vote in my precinct caucus convention, I was dismayed by the atmosphere there.  It was very uncomfortable to be a Hillary supporter.  It was even worse if you were black or a man and supported her, no black person I know likes being called an Uncle Tom or a house slave and I have never met a man that likes being told he is castrated...  It felt like Mob rule... even so, I still felt that I would vote for Obama if he were the nominee.
    Fast forward to now... I was part of a group that challenged our caucus results, rules were broken and subject to voter fraud (like no ID's being verified, ballots passed around unchecked, calling friends and filling in information for them).  They were just unprepared to handle the crowds and it was out of control. Now we have been cast as evil for challenging that situation and bringing it to light.  Were we undemocratic to object to running a caucus this way?
    The tone and downright disrespect of Obama and his supporters toward anyone who challenges them has given me pause.  I have encountered blind, passionate hate from many Obama supporters and I will not be bullied.  The irony is that right wing republicans  have been accused of being brown shirts (esp 2004 http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0902-08.htm)...  now, I  am feeling that many Obama supporters are behaving that way.  I feel that a vote for Obama is a vote against democracy at this point.  I just do not think I will ever be able to bring myself to support him.
    If more Obama supporters behaved like BTD, and Obama himself was not so arrogant and duplicitous himself, I would reconsider.  
    Thanks for giving a true voice to democrats BTD, you are a true democrat and patriot.  

    [ Parent ]
    From one 42-year old white woman to another (none / 0) (#140)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 10:55:54 PM EST
    ..what an excellent, beautifully written post.  Thank you for expressing my sentiments exactly.  :)

    [ Parent ]
    Another 40 something white woman to another... (none / 0) (#177)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:20:08 AM EST
    Leisa...sickofhypocrisy...Ditto that sentiment. The pressure on members of the Congressional Black Caucus is particularly disturbing...among other things.

    [ Parent ]
    What will the (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Coldblue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:50:32 PM EST
    'Creative Class' do when Obama begins to run to the right? Nothing, imho.

    See I don't believe that their hatred of all things Clinton has anything to do with policy, lobbyists, dynasty, or any other false pretenses that get mentioned. It is a generational battle that they're fighting and Obama is the one-eyed man in their quest.

    Yes... (5.00 / 6) (#52)
    by citizen53 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:59:09 PM EST
    and this generation will discover that the more things change, the more they remain the same.

    The current generation seems more prone to manipulation than any group of progressives and Democrats I have seen in a long, long while.

    So much that they actually believe they are immune from the very forces that control them with slick viral marketing.  If only they could see themselves from the outside looking in.

    [ Parent ]

    Whatever their motivation is (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Coldblue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:14:01 PM EST
    I don't understand their willingness to be manipulated either.

    But I'm just a older liberal so what would I know?

    [ Parent ]

    Balkanizing the Party of FDR.... (none / 0) (#178)
    by workingclass artist on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 07:23:56 AM EST
    This whole thing has gotten way too tribal...The msm has really driven it and the DNC and it's inept leadeship has played right into it. HOpe HRC just creams the PUNDIDIOTS in PA.

    [ Parent ]
    a high school taacher friend of (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by hairspray on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:22 PM EST
    mine says that it is frightening that this generation that comprises Obama support (18-30) is one of the worst in terms of entitlement and material wealth that she has seen for a long time. She thinks they have no sense of proportion, and are sorely lacking in respect for history and people over 30.  Sort of like the '60's except this group has never really gone without (generalizing to middle class of course,) material comfort.  At least the '60's kids had the draft to contend with.  I certainly don't want to be stampeded into chosing a president based on that quality of power.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe it's the age of self-esteem... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by citizen53 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:15 PM EST
    so they do not know how to deal with things not complimentary to what they do.

    I never liked getting a trophy just for showing up.

    [ Parent ]

    Citizen53 (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Gabriele Droz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:12:34 PM EST
    I remember you and I arguing a lot over at DKos  (about Wes Clark, remember?), and I never could have imagined we'd ultimately end up on the same side.  I love it - thanks for your great comments lately.  Peace.

    [ Parent ]
    I won't rekindle the past... (none / 0) (#165)
    by citizen53 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 02:18:13 AM EST
    and say thanks.  Have a great weekend.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with that.. (none / 0) (#184)
    by FlaDemFem on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 11:44:27 AM EST
    The kids today have had people so worried about their self-esteem that they have basically told them they are wonderful because they are breathing. I had a little run-in with my niece a few years ago. She was going on and on about being in a program called ILAC, meaning I am a Loving And Caring person. Right. I told her that saying she was didn't cut it, BEING a loving and caring person was in actions, not in words. And a loving and caring person would not have been rude to her great-grandmother as she had been the previous weekend. Her mother nodded, and the kid looked confused. We had to explain to her the meaning of "lip service".  

    They have been taught that saying something is the same as doing it. Which would explain their infatuation with Obama. Someone needs to explain to them that just because someone says the moon is made of cheese doesn't mean the moon rocks are Stilton.

    [ Parent ]

    Gen. Y (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by angie on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:55:38 PM EST
    or better, "Gen Why?" I've read some interesting studies on them -- they're known to be mainly followers who like being told what to do, as they're entire lives have been micromanaged, from play dates, to soccer practice, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    When Obama Runs Even Further To The Right (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by MO Blue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:12:59 PM EST
    they will rationalize how he is proposing absolutely the most marvelous and far sighted ideas they ever heard no matter if they had denounced the same things 5 minutes ago.

    [ Parent ]
    But (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Coldblue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:23:53 PM EST
    its the unity that we all want, isn't it?

    </snark>

    [ Parent ]

    Hi Cb (none / 0) (#88)
    by bumblebums on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:35:59 PM EST
    Speaking of running to the right, what do you think of Hillary's "umbrella of deterrence" to reign in Iran? That sounded like it came straight from Krauthammer's keyboard.

    [ Parent ]
    Hi b (none / 0) (#94)
    by Coldblue on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:44:03 PM EST
    I thought it would be good tactic. Deterrence works with the a smart person at the helm.


    [ Parent ]
    Bubmlebums, (none / 0) (#113)
    by Gabriele Droz on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:14:32 PM EST
    are you the same BB that used to be a Clarkie?  Just curious.

    [ Parent ]
    Hi Gabriele (none / 0) (#115)
    by bumblebums on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 08:17:14 PM EST
    Nope - I wasn't a Clarkie - I supported Dean. Seems like a hundred years ago.

    [ Parent ]
    No actually (none / 0) (#157)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:18:54 AM EST
    it wouldn't have come from Krauthammer's keyboard.  He's more the bomb hell out of them type.

    Deterrence and containment was the way the Cold War was fought.  We had Iraq deterred and contained until GW Bush and company decided to become war criminals.

    [ Parent ]

    bingo! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kempis on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 06:57:45 PM EST
    "Drumming Clinton supporters out of the Democratic Party is what his web site is about."

    ****

    And he's succeeding. So are Arianna and assorted others who find the centrist/pragmatist wing of the party too "Republican-lite." They're the left equivalent of those horrid rightwingnuts who are always attempting to make moderate Republicans (RINOS) unwelcome in their party. Both parties are dominated by ideological loudmouths.

    I am quite serious--and I say this at least once a day at HuffPo because I want these people to hear this--about leaving the Democratic party after 32 years of being a member. I'll say more about why later, but for now it suffices to say that Markos and other condescending, rabidly ideological, "progressive" purists have made me embarrassed to be a Democrat.

    I'm in PA and I hear that the GOP is making sure that registration forms are available at polling stations this Tuesday so that GOP members who changed their party registration to vote in the Democratic primary can readily switch back. I'm grabbing one and re-registering as an Independent.

    I'll vote for Obama in November, but I'll not be a Democrat again until the snooty Kos wing of the party learns to zip it and let the party truly become a party for working people, not the self-righteous and, I hate to say it but it's true, liberal elites.

    Except that they are not... (5.00 / 9) (#54)
    by citizen53 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:01:49 PM EST
    the left, as their practices evidence.

    They are the illusion of the left, and their cause of change is an illusion as well, as it is antithetical to progressive practices and believes of tolerance, diversity and respect to all.

    [ Parent ]

    good point (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by kempis on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 07:26:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Problem is (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by cal1942 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 at 01:28:52 AM EST
    these people are hardly what I'd call left.

    They're supporting the most conservative "Democrat" to get this far in many years.  If anyone's Republican-lite it's Obama. In fact, really not so lite.

    Obama, Wall Street and the insurance industry aim to make sure there's no universal health care, no prosecution of financial crooks and no direction changing policy at all except to put Social Security at risk.  Obama's economic advisor Jeffrey Liebman wants to privatize Social Security, make a giant tip jar for Wall Street. Obama is Goldman-Sachs man of the moment.

    How in hell does any of this qualify as left-of-center?

    [ Parent ]