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How Not To Unify The Party

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only

Our friend Markos approvingly quotes this offensive comment:

It's bizarre, but I don't really consider [Hillary Clinton] a Dem any more.

It is bizarre that any Dem who wants to win in November with a unified Party would quote that approvingly. For the record, would "not a Dem" say this?

Obviously, we are still contesting to determine who will be the nominee. But once that is resolved, I think it is absolutely imperative that our entire party close ranks. That we become unified. I will do everything to make sure that the people who supported me support our nominee. I will go anywhere in the country to make the case. And I know that Barack feels the same way because both of us have spent 15 months traveling our country. I have seen the damage of the Bush years. I've seen the extraordinary pain that people have suffered from because of the failed policies. You know, those who have held my hands who've lost sons or daughters in Iraq. And those who have lost sons or daughters because they didn't have health insurance. And so, regardless of the differences there may be between us, and there are differences, they pale in comparison to the differences between us and Senator McCain. So, we will certainly do whatever is necessary to make sure that a Democrat is in the White House next January.

(Emphasis supplied.) I wonder who the real Dems are. The ones who say they will unify the Party or the ones intent on destroying Hillary Clinton. Some people need to take a real hard look in the mirror. I do not think that the Some people are Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. Get a grip, "Creative Class."

Update [2008-4-17 11:49:54 by Big Tent Democrat]: The Unity Schitck last night:

I don't think the Democrats have a monopoly on good ideas. I think that there are a lot of thoughtful Republicans out there. The problem is, we've been locked in a divided politics for so long that we've stopped listening to each other. And I think that this president, in particular, has fed those divisions. That's something that we've tried to end in this campaign. And I think we're being successful.

No, not exactly a Fighting Dem. But still a Dem.

< Boehlert's Revenge: Part II | Great News For Clinton: Zogby Says PA Tied >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Yeah, and Reagan Republican (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:49:59 AM EST
    Markos is a great choice for arbiter of Dem credentials.

    As Colbert might say (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Salo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:51:43 AM EST
    Kos is Democraty.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary is on Colbert tonight (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:56 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Democratiness personified? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:05:53 AM EST
    Except I don't thinks he sounds Democratty.  Maybe if I adjusted the spelling a little...?

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you who says Markos is a Dem (none / 0) (#145)
    by Salt on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:18:09 AM EST
    Obama co dependent maybe.

    [ Parent ]
    Who died and made a former GOP (5.00 / 8) (#2)
    by Salo on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:50:25 AM EST
    voter the arbiter of Democraticness?

    I am left (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Lahdee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:56:45 AM EST
    wondering exactly what was checked at the gate.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh, exmilitary Republican voter ;) (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:05:29 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The Rev Wright served too. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:15:35 AM EST
    I feel I should thank them both for their service - but that's all I'll thank them for.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't know that about Wright (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:23:00 AM EST
    Military service seems to nourish the fanatical in a personality ;)  I say this with much love as my husband can end his lecture now about locking all the doors when the house is empty and I leave one unlocked when I give him the cut off sign.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh... (none / 0) (#139)
    by kredwyn on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:13:06 AM EST
    I'm constantly leaving my keys in the front door.

    [ Parent ]
    That's funny (5.00 / 11) (#3)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:51:08 AM EST
    because I don't really consier Markos a Dem and haven't for a long time....in fact, I'd call him a "fauxgressive".

    Markos, maybe you don't consider her a Dem because you've redefined what a Dem is?  And if she isn't a Dem and you are, Markos, then why is she getting the Dem core voters, the ones who vote Dem consistently, and your candidate is getting the rest?

    i don't agree with the Kos comment.... (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:30:52 AM EST
    but I have seen TL posters call Obama again and again "not a dem".  or worse, a republican.  not once have i seen anyone call a poster on that.  

    it seems ironic given the response now.  

    [ Parent ]

    Do you see BTD or Jeralyn (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:32:51 AM EST
    say that Obama is not a Dem?
    What occurs in the COMMENTS of Orangistan is far worse, as you well know.

    [ Parent ]
    I call him not a Dem (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:36:01 AM EST
    and he deserves it.  Constantly bashes President Clinton and praises Reagan and Bush Sr.  Talks about the war on poverty as excesses.  Puts down the "culture wars", choice, gay rights. To me, he is not a Democrat.  

    [ Parent ]
    interesting... (1.00 / 4) (#76)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
    then i wouldn't get bent out of shape re: Kos comment.

    You guys are both ridiculous.  

    [ Parent ]

    Please don't name call N/T (none / 0) (#80)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:37:49 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    i meant (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:43:04 AM EST
    being ridiculous.  apology.  

    [ Parent ]
    I am not a premiere league blogger (none / 0) (#85)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:40:52 AM EST
    I am just who I am.  Mr. Kos, has responsibilities.  

    [ Parent ]
    No he doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:49:12 AM EST
    He's just a blogger.

    That's his excuse.

    A wise man once said "In dreams begin responsibilities."

    The Obama movement wants the fulfillment of a dream (and really it's not even a dream, it's just what they're selling), but they don't want any of the responsibility.

    Look at the way they dealt with Lamont losing.

    It will always be someone else's responsibility.

    He's just a guy with a blog.

    It's like Bush saying I'm just a guy clearing brush.


    [ Parent ]

    Well since in another comment you (none / 0) (#90)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:49 AM EST
    say that independents are making him a winner.  Why worry if someone doubts his Democratic credentials?  You worry me sometimes are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.  Question, are you a Democrat or an Independent?

    [ Parent ]
    independent democrat (none / 0) (#98)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:45:54 AM EST
    .

    [ Parent ]
    ah, just like Liebermen then (n/t) (none / 0) (#138)
    by DandyTIger on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:12:30 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    My thought exactly. :-) (none / 0) (#152)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:13 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    what? (none / 0) (#99)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:47:11 AM EST
    Talks about the war on poverty as excesses.  Puts down the "culture wars", choice, gay rights

    so he's put down choice and gay rights now... you guys really have to stop pushing this crap or someone might believe it.  

    careless.

    [ Parent ]

    he's a dangerous dem (none / 0) (#147)
    by boredmpa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    to post or not to post...

    i think maybe he's just a dangerous dem:

    social security (2042 seems like tomorrow!)
    clinton so bad (i had economic hope back then)
    flag pin (seriously???)
    SF mayor too close (sorry gays...and people with good hair)
    SF liberal image (when he [snark] takes the backdoor entrance at the getty house and gives the billionaires a good rimming)

    very dangerous dem that wastes political capital on stupid stuff.

    tosses gays under the bus, disses rural folks (holla, appa latch a), and totally screws the pooch on major policy talking points.  

    headdesk

    [ Parent ]

    Gavin Newsom (none / 0) (#179)
    by DaveOinSF on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:41:01 PM EST
    I love the Gav and he has a lot of positive attributes.  But good hair is not one of them.

    [ Parent ]
    Does it? (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:41:00 AM EST
    Then you are an idiot.

    Have you seen me say Obama is not a Dem?

    I repeat, then you must be an idiot.

    [ Parent ]

    easy BTD (none / 0) (#96)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:45:24 AM EST
    I meant the community of posters.  not you.  relax; i really wasnot talking about you/jeralyn.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry (none / 0) (#122)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    Your comment is idiotic. I rebuked Kos. You responded to MY post.

    [ Parent ]
    have you called the other posters (none / 0) (#130)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:02:37 AM EST
    idiots (thanks) as they've continually called Obama anything but a dem (even in this thread).  no.

    [ Parent ]
    That is not the point (none / 0) (#153)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:30:35 AM EST
    You can call them idiots as far as I am concerned. The point is my POSt is about what Kos did, not what some silly commenter did.

    [ Parent ]
    There are no personal attacks allowed on (none / 0) (#191)
    by digdugboy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:06:28 PM EST
    TalkLeft. You are suspended for the rest of the day. Comment no further.

    McCain
    [ Parent ]
    I don't think I can avoid (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by andgarden on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:51:37 AM EST
    personally insulting him for saying that, so I'll avoid comment.

    To be fair... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:52:45 AM EST
    I don't consider Markos a Dem anymore. I'm not sure he ever really converted from being a Republican in his heart. He certainly doesn't act like a Dem - he wants to tear down the Democratic Party (Crash the Gates) and put a different party in it's place, as opposed to making minor changes to improve it.

    It's amazing who aren't Dems anymore: (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by magster on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:50:41 AM EST
    Kos, AmericaBlog, TPM, Arianna Huffington, Keith Olberman, Chris Bowers/Matt Stoller, MoveOn, Blue Majority.

    It's a good thing Charles Gibson stood up for Dem values last night.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:54:29 AM EST
    and 70% of Americans supported the Iraq War when it started and it was a media darling too.

    Did that make it the right thing?

    Popularity is not judgment.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know about the others but, (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:56:12 AM EST
    Arianna Huffington is not a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    No. No. No. (5.00 / 5) (#123)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:58:25 AM EST
    Supporting Obama, or even attacking Clinton, doesn't make people "Not Democrat".  Markos has been doing a lot more than that. He has been promoting a vision of the Demoratic Party that is at odds with the values and beliefs of most Democrats. Sort of a libertarian/Republican hybrid with a few Democratic ideas thrown in. Have you read what he says about Dems? He doesn't like them much.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary (none / 0) (#121)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:56:49 AM EST
    Did you tell Kos what you thought?

    No you did come to tell us though.

    [ Parent ]

    Did Hillary post here? (none / 0) (#206)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 09:08:42 AM EST
    What do you mean?

    [ Parent ]
    who is or isn't a dem (none / 0) (#200)
    by moll on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:45:48 PM EST
    I think there are two Democratic parties - what has been described as the Stevenson and the Truman Democrats.

    And both apparently suddenly getting sick of the other, or at least fighting for control of the party.

    [ Parent ]

    Actually (none / 0) (#202)
    by cal1942 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:09:43 PM EST
    moll is right.  A big part of this is a fratricidal war. A serious fratricidal war with potential devastating consequences.

    I believe that there was a basic overconfidence coming into 2008; that it was our year, a slam dunk. A time when fighting it out for control would be no problem because 2008 would be soooo easy.

    Looking back to early fall or late summer 2007 it should have been apparent that the battle had been joined. Some people saw it.  Many didn't recognize it immediately (myself included) but it's unmistakable now and it's certainly possible that the war will blow the whole thing.

    Right now I'm pissed off at any number of establishment Democrats (Dean, Brazile, Feingold, Kerry, Kennedy, et al) and wonder what future the party has if these people prevail.

    [ Parent ]

    Arianna was a Repug (none / 0) (#209)
    by ginamc on Sun Apr 20, 2008 at 05:47:01 PM EST
    until recently.. I'm confused about her.  Flash back 10 years ago -- she was one of the main anti-Bill surrogates during Monicagate.  Then, she popped up claiming to be a Progressive.  Seriously, when did her transformation to being a Democrat occur?

    I've been a Democrat all of my life, born into a Demo family.  I'm a Hill delegate to my Texas State Convention, and I'm really furious because I'm feeling like my Party is being hijacked by the college kids and the fauxgressives, Independents and Obamacans.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd also mention (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by Nasarius on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:52:24 AM EST
    That his attitude towards women and feminism is terrible. I wasn't there for the "pie fight", but there were several other incidents. The one that comes to mind right now is Kos expressing utter disdain for a blogger who had received graphic death threats.

    I really don't mean to say that's why he's anti-Hillary or anything. But the notion that he's a liberal or "progressive" is laughable.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, that. (none / 0) (#125)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:59:05 AM EST
    It wasn't his fauz pas.  It was his resistance to apologizing for his misstep, despite pretty much the entire community insisting that he did indeed screw up and that an apology was the right and proper thing to do.  Reminds me of Obama.

    [Part X of Fabian's Advice for Newbies - Manners count.  Saying "Please" "Thank you" "Please explain" and "I'm sorry" go a long way towards earning others' goodwill.]

    [ Parent ]

    I tell you (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:52:54 AM EST
    clockwork orange gangs, but they use keyboards instead of boots.  

    Trusted party operatives (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by dianem on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:02:17 AM EST
    Sitting at their keyboards with talking points being text messaged to them. Each is assigned a blog or series of blogs, and they log on under different names and post the talking points. Last night the point was "the media are attacking Obama unfairly - attack ABC".  It started long before the debate ended and by the time regular people had gone on-line to see what the reaction to the debate was the comments threads were packed with people decrying the unfairness of it all and providing phone numbers to call and complain. It's disgustingly easy to manipulate public opinion. Just plant enough seeds - people tend to go along with the majority.

    [ Parent ]
    Some read the polls, I also read the trolls (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ellie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:53:34 PM EST
    This astro-trolling is so lame. Bad enough that TeamO has totally dropped all pretense of actively showing what this much hyped "new" politics is.

    The campaign has settled into a pattern of egregiously worse politics than before, wrapped in stitched together phrases from far, far better leader and even resorting to trolling to stop discussions and rote-clutter them to shut down the comments. (To the clutterbucks, what's so d@mn dangerous about people for or against exchanging news and views that aren't all about swooning before their guy?)

    Astro-trolling accomplishes nothing, doesn't fool anyone, and, as far as adding even a few unintended hoots to a thread, falls short of the mark.

    Even the concern trolls who try to blend in fall far short of the mark, though I do admit to a weird enjoyment of seeing what transparently ridiculous ploy is in the works when they attempt to use cunning stealth.

    Since they're not particularly bright, it's like being followed around by rustling rosebushes teetering on human feet wearing black chucks. And when you stop suddenly and whirl around and demand to know if the rosebushes are following you, they all say, "No!" "No way, not me" "Unh-uhhh, no!" except that one rosebush that's singing along with "I don't wanna go to rehab, uh-baby, uh-no no nooooo!"

    I do admit a personal fondness for the concern trolls that show up in a concern gaggle, bearing what are supposed to be confidence-eroding polls so devastating, they're sure to act like kryptonite to sap SuperHill of her superpowers. And zowie, each member of the gaggle is mysteriously armed with, like, a totally different negative poll so it looks totally casual and natural!

    Apparently the refrain for HRC to drop out before PA wasn't going anywhere -- despite logic as bracing as Aw come on. Oh you're mean -- so thankfully that stopped. The "insurmountable lead" baloney is also, thankfully, off the the strategery menu, since it didn't result in HRC doing TeamO a huuuuuge PR favor and dropping out before PA. (In passing, bwaaahahahaha; the gang has to deal with so many issues that would have "solved".)


    [ Parent ]

    This is exactly (5.00 / 14) (#8)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:53:05 AM EST
    my problem with Obama.

    He is dangerous to the Democratic brand.

    No praise for Carter. No praise for Clinton. No praise for FDR, LBJ or JFK.

    This is our moment in history, to make our positive case that we are the party of the people. Everyone hates Bush and Republicans.

    America is partisan for a reason. The two parties are fundamentally different and their policies have different effects on the middle and working classes.  

    Instead, Obama is blathering about how everyone hates government in general and how only he, post-partisan Magic Man, can save us from ourselves.

    He is a mind-blowingly bad candidate for the Democratic Party. He absolutely cannot be our nominee.

    He really should (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:57:22 AM EST
    run on a third party ticket if he wants his own brand.  I know, I know, third party bad.

    However, I think the only way to get out of this Democratic/Republican mess the country is in is if third parties become truly viable.  At present our two parties aren't really answerable to voters.  When threatened, all they have to do is put up the specter of the other side (e.g. Roe) to whip people in line to continue to vote for them.  Cause where else would they go?

    Third party is the only thing I can think of that would really solve things...but it's a long term solution and most people don't have patience for that.

    [ Parent ]

    He can get in office (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by waldenpond on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:10:48 AM EST
    and then drop his D and become an independent.  That would do a lot for the independent movement.  So I put this on him with no evidence he believes in it or would do it, but it's pretty much the same of any issue associated with me for him.   I am so sick of Dems right now.  If I voted my personal economic interests, I would vote Republican, but some issues are important to me (like health care as a human right).  We will have democratic leadership that doesn't see this as a priority and then we will see the party in control flip... now another 16 years with no health care as a human right.  sad.

    [ Parent ]
    3rd Parties Dilute the Vote (none / 0) (#45)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:24:53 AM EST
    Never forget how Nadar's 2000 campaign paved the road to Bush's victory.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes but long-term, (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:30:49 AM EST
    I think we must begin to go towards a more multi-party solution in America, as most other democracies have done, and to eventually embrace proportional representation.

    Public financing for elections would make many parties much more viable, and if the extreme left and extreme right were able to form their own parties, they would not be able to hijack the two main parties. We also wouldn't have to worry so much about "electability," because the parties would be clearly delineated and so would their beliefs and platforms.

    Imagine if Raygun didn't allow the religious right wackos into the Republican Party, for example, and we had proportional representation. The wingnuts would make up about 20 percent of Congress, rather than actually ruling as a majority for so many years.

    [ Parent ]

    three party (none / 0) (#201)
    by moll on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 07:55:23 PM EST
    The only way you're going to get three parties in the USA is to change the way votes are counted.

    If the system stayed the same, then a third party would just take the place of one of the two while the newly-replaced party would die. That's how it has always happened. You'd have to change the winner takes all to a proportional system (where if you get 12% of the vote you get 12% representation) before you get a multi-party system. And I understand they have their own problems!

    The one reform I think would do the most to fix the problem is to revive the idea of defined and enforced fairness in the media. If the voters had access to good information, instead of having the information and the advertising mixed up so you can't tell what was what, that would be a great help.


    [ Parent ]

    I'm tired of that rationale (5.00 / 2) (#166)
    by angie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:03:09 PM EST
    Nadar didn't cost Gore the election -- Gore should have gotten more votes and I mean that to apply to FL in that it should not have been that close for W & the USSC to "steal" it.  People have every right to vote for a 3rd party candidate without being dismissed as "diluting the vote."  If the Dems want to win (which I am beginning to doubt since Gore, Kerry and now Obama) then they have to earn the votes to do it -- not blame the "low information voters" or the rubes or the Nadars.  Earn the votes, dangit -- and that includes fighting back when the GOP start their hit job.  Remember how Kerry didn't think the swiftboat lies deserved a response? Poor Dems, always bring a knife to a gun fight.

    [ Parent ]
    It's Not A Rational (none / 0) (#188)
    by flashman on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    It's what happened.

    [ Parent ]
    This is the very argument that Somerby (none / 0) (#208)
    by gish720 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 at 12:09:31 PM EST
    rails against...the idea that Gore ran a bad campaign or that the right wing snuffed Gore out.  While the Republicans did have talking points, these talking points were channeled by the MSN all through Gore's White House run and in effect the The New York Times and the Washington Post chose our President for us. Kit Seele and Ceci Connolly two of the worst perps had narritives that were false and painted Gore as a liar which was rich considering the fact that THEY were the ones who were constantly lying.  It's a travesty Chris Matthews still plays this game against Clinton to this day as well as Keith Oblermann who's relatively new to the game.

    [ Parent ]
    So what happens when a person sees (none / 0) (#56)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:28:37 AM EST
    no difference between both candidates in the GE?

    [ Parent ]
    One gets a thorough checkup... (none / 0) (#148)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:23:04 AM EST
    ...vision, hearing, neurological, IQ test/retest...

    [ Parent ]
    Well, maybe (none / 0) (#180)
    by alsace on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:42:07 PM EST
    not "no difference," but perhaps a similar measure of undesirability, in different areas.  

    [ Parent ]
    True third parties (none / 0) (#65)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:31:21 AM EST
    wouldn't dilute the vote but would themselves have a chance of winning.  WEAK third parties (spoilers) dilute the vote.

    [ Parent ]
    Hating Government (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:24 AM EST
    Is a Republican value.

    Of course during his administration he will teach us all to love the government.

    [ Parent ]

    He will "transcend" our hatred!!1111!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:18:04 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Edgar 08 #32 (none / 0) (#167)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:04:58 PM EST
    Can you explain to me when it became all right for a Democratic candidate to insult, dismiss, and debase previous Democratic Administrations? I thought that was a big no-no. It's not as if we have much to celebrate over the past 40 years so I wonder why any Democrat would want to demean a popular former Democratic President.

    If Bill's campaigning for Hillary bothers them, wouldn't it have been better, and smarter, to just laugh it off by saying something like "of course Bill thinks Hillary is the better candidate, show me a husband brave enough to say otherwise", or some such nonsense. Or am I being hopelessly naïve?


    [ Parent ]

    It became alright when (none / 0) (#193)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:20:44 PM EST
    Hillary had the "audacity" to hope she still had a chance for the nomination, and therefore refused to crawl under a rock and die.

    [ Parent ]
    And all those new voters (5.00 / 8) (#37)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:18:46 AM EST
    that he's "bringing in to the party-"-what are they taking away from all this? How are they learning to talk about Democratic candidates and Democratic ideals? His constant putdowns of Dems and praise of R's is telling them:

    -Democrats are bad,

    -Republicans are better,

    -Vote for the Democrat who's most like a Republican.

    How anyone can see that as party-building is beyond me.

    [ Parent ]

    The younger voters (5.00 / 10) (#41)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:20:39 AM EST
    are not reacting to his message, they're reacting to his marketing.

    IMHO.

    They don't even realize what they're nodding their heads to.

    [ Parent ]

    There's a unity (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by Lahdee on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:54:10 AM EST
    statement if I ever saw one. I guess those who support Senator Clinton are not Democrats also?


    re: (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Double Standard on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:57:36 AM EST
    That thread is pathetic.  It baffles my mind to understand how people can be so bias and so blind to the actual truth.  I understand some bias is natural and there will be a natural inclination to defend one's candidate, but COME ON!!!

    Luckily, those people are the extreme left and they are not close to representative of Democrats as a whole.

    sorry...not extreme left (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:42 AM EST
    The extreme left has no interest in Obama or these Kos people.  These guys are Nouveau Dems.  Libertarians, who hate the war and have no political party and have glommed on to the Democratic party.  

    [ Parent ]
    You know what Stellaaaa (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:03:57 AM EST
    I can't call them Libertarians.  I have an extremely large Libertarian streak that according to Kos comes out of the West.  He wrote that once and the shoe fit and I agreed with him mucho on that.  Libertarians though don't care for all this religious and faith stuff that comes glued to Obama.  We are all about to each his own but don't be shoving your own in my face.  I disagree with them on so many things I can't attribute this Obama thing to Libertarian streaks.

    [ Parent ]
    Stand corrected (none / 0) (#29)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:13:36 AM EST
    there is this streak of laissez fairism, about "other people" that I call libertarian as an easy marker, maybe it's wrong.  

    [ Parent ]
    Actually they are not the extreme left. (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:01:08 AM EST
    The real extreme left would not back a candidate that praises Reagan and dumps on Carter.

    [ Parent ]
    Not to mention (none / 0) (#194)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:23:02 PM EST
    a candidate who wants "universal" health care that allows healthy young people to opt out of the system and therefore keep premiums higher.

    [ Parent ]
    They aren' t the extreme left though (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:47 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    to reply to you and the others above... (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Double Standard on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:13:02 AM EST
    I actually was going to take extreme left out and replace it with something like extreme Obama partisans, but got lazy and left it as is...they're extreme something, but democrats they are not.

    [ Parent ]
    That I heartily agree (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:32 AM EST
    Extremely something that I can't quite define.

    [ Parent ]
    Xtreme Politics! (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:21:11 AM EST
    Coming soon to a pundit near you!

    [ Parent ]
    Obama on past presidents (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:58:14 AM EST
    Gee, only George Bush.  Wow, first how ungracious second what a coward to not bring up Carter.  Heh, what about Gore, he was VP.  

    Yes, and isn't it amusing (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:59:20 AM EST
    that people say that we have to vote for him if he's the nominee because he would uphold Democratic principles!

    [ Parent ]
    Hey what about President Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Marvin42 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:36:42 AM EST
    I almost broke my TV when he skipped over the DEMOCRATIC president.

    Sheesh.

    [ Parent ]

    First thing I read this morning (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:58:55 AM EST
    What a total load of the worst sort of bull.  He might as well throw a women's studies comment on top of it.  I'm so sick of his crud anymore.  That boy's cheese (and I say boy because he is acting extremely immature) has slipped off his cracker!

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:00:42 AM EST
    Orangistan has really jumped the shark now.

    [ Parent ]
    You say that now.... (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:19:11 AM EST
    but just wait.  I'm sure there are more sharks in their future.

    [ Parent ]
    far from just Kos (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:20:07 AM EST

    the good news is according to alexa TL got almost twice as many page views as americablog last night.
    (if I read it correctly)


    [ Parent ]
    The data you're looking at (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:27:45 AM EST
    is from April 11.  Alexa is usually about a week behind.  It will be interesting to see how page views changed last night, though.

    [ Parent ]
    I refuse to go to the Blog That Must (none / 0) (#195)
    by litigatormom on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 03:26:08 PM EST
    Not Be Named, because I think it jumped the shark a long time ago.  

    By now, though, the theme from Jaws must start playing every time someone clicks to the front page.

    DA dum....DA dum...DA dum DA dum DAdumDadumDadum....

    [ Parent ]

    Fighting Dems (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    Gee, at what point yesterday did Obama defend or stand by the Democratic brand?  

    Obama Has Never Ran On The Democratic Brand (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:17 AM EST
    during the primary cycle. He has ran on the Obama brand. IMO he has done more to shore up the Republican party than strengthen the Democratic brand.

    Republicans the party of ideas rather than the a party whose ideas have been proven to be a failure.

    Reagan a transformation presidential and Clinton a failed president who hurt the country and the  party.

    Saying that  he will adopt a foreign policy like Reagan and Bush I and that he will put Republicans in the positions of Sec. of Defense and State, IMO reinforces the message that Republicans are better at foreign policy than Democrats.

    Claiming that the Democrats in DC are almost as much to blame for the gridlock  really helps convince the public that the Dems would be better for America.  

    Also, what kind of Democrat puts Social Security on the table and runs Harry and Louise ads against health care.

    Obama is the candidate that I have a hard time believing is a Dem.    

    [ Parent ]

    I finally squinted my eyes (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:04:33 AM EST
    and went and visited the link at Orange State.

    The headline of this teeny diary KOS felt he needed to create to present this drivel:

    Clinton's license to do harm

    Personally, I think that's what KOS domain registration has become: A license to do harm (to Democrats).

    He's not my (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:13:13 AM EST
    Friend.


    Now let me get this straight ... (5.00 / 6) (#30)
    by Inky on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:15:04 AM EST
    Hillary Clinton is NOT a Democrat, but Arnold Schwarzeneggar is.

    Got it. Thanks, Kos!

    Yuppers! Ahnold is the Governator (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:16:45 AM EST
    of Kos' fair state.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, snap! (5.00 / 6) (#35)
    by madamab on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:17:10 AM EST
    That pretty much sums it up: HRC is not Republican enough to be a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]
    At the beginning of this campaign I (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:19:17 AM EST
    thought that all those blogs had been invaded by trolls.  Now I realize that they must have been populated by them all along and only needed an incentive to show their true colors.  The Anti-clinton anti-carter (the only Democratic Presidents since 1968) in these blogs is to intensive to be casual.  These people IMO must have a deep seated resentment of Democratic presidents.  Heck they blame them for everything except the plague and maybe even that.

    It's all about comment moderation (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:20:51 AM EST
    and the views at the top.
    Markos never was much of a thinker, and when he decided to hitch his horse to Obama, he stopped having any standards at all, IMO.

    [ Parent ]
    his standards are $$$$ (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Josey on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:32:28 AM EST
    same with Josh Marshall, etal and the MSM - all manipulating public opinion to favor the "new and improving" Obama - the new American Idol.
    But the whining and outrage from Obama supporters today make him appear weak - like he couldn't take the hits during the general unless the media continued their red carpet treatment of him.
    Very elitist.

    [ Parent ]
    Another point that worries me (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Florida Resident on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:25:23 AM EST
    and this might be OT.  Why are so many leaders of the Democratic Party going along with this Anti-Clinton Anti-Carter therefore IMO Anti-Democrat propaganda?

    Carter and Clinton were outsiders (5.00 / 5) (#87)
    by eleanora on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:07 AM EST
    who blew past the presumed Dem candidates and actually managed to win the general election. And the party leadership made them pay and pay for it and hung them out to dry when the Republicans attacked them. In 92, Clinton especially was depicted as being white trash, laughed at, and cartooned as attending the inauguration in a pickup truck with a dog in the back. My first vote in an election was for him, and I was appalled at the way his own party sneered and derided his win.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. Class warfare... (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by oldpro on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:35:30 AM EST
    now full out divil war within the Democratic Party.

    That was the whole point of drafting Obama as point man to destroy the Clintons.

    Could it be more ironic, more despicable, than to do it with the race card?

    If this flys, the Democratic brand is over for the forseeable future.

    As a lifelong Dem, I'd say it's pretty likely that we're doomed.  This generation will search and destroy it.  The next generation, if they figure it out, can rebuild...

    [ Parent ]

    Carter and Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by OldCoastie on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 11:36:13 AM EST
    are considered a couple of hillbillies by some in the Obama camp and therefore were never really entitled to sit in the White House...

    it really is a class issue...

    [ Parent ]

    The funny thing about Markos (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by cmugirl on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:25:36 AM EST
    and the others (yes, I'm looking at you Josh Marshall), is that, like Rush Limbaugh, wouldn't it be BETTER for them for Hillary to win?  Then they can have more daily rants.  If Obama actually wins the election, what are they going to rail against? Are they going to blame him when things go wrong?

    Of course Obama will blame Bill Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by MarkL on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:27:47 AM EST
    for the nation's problems, if elected.
    Following in Bush's footsteps, he will take us further and further from that long nightmare of peace and prosperity.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, they will (none / 0) (#59)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:29:57 AM EST
    just as they blame all the non-progressive candidates they support.  They get behind them, root for them, and when they win and are just like they obviously promised to be, KOS is outraged.

    And he will be outraged at Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    give kookos the boot (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by pluege on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:27:39 AM EST
    a) who gives a rats-a*s what kookos thinks.

    b) he's hardly the arbiter of what a dem is.

    c) my vote is that kookos is voted off Democratic Isle for divisiveness, arrogance, self-absorption, being anti-democratic and anti-inclusive, elitism, abuse of power, and most of all for practicing wingnuttery, full-time.

    Much of Obama's Online Support (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by BDB on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:30:23 AM EST
    comes from children.  In real life, they seem much better.

    But then these are the same people who defended Obama's SF comments as being right, which turns out to be, well, wrong:

    Do small-town, working-class voters cast ballots on the basis of social issues? Yes, but less than other voters do. Among these voters, those who are anti-abortion were only 6 percentage points more likely than those who favor abortion rights to vote for President Bush in 2004. The corresponding difference for the rest of the electorate was 27 points, and for cosmopolitan voters it was a remarkable 58 points. Similarly, the votes cast by the cosmopolitan crowd in 2004 were much more likely to reflect voters' positions on gun control and gay marriage.

    Small-town, working-class voters were also less likely to connect religion and politics. Support for President Bush was only 5 percentage points higher among the 39 percent of small-town voters who said they attended religious services every week or almost every week than among those who seldom or never attended religious services. The corresponding difference among cosmopolitan voters (34 percent of whom said they attended religious services regularly) was 29 percentage points.

    It is true that American voters attach significantly more weight to social issues than they did 20 years ago. It is also true that church attendance has become a stronger predictor of voting behavior. But both of those changes are concentrated primarily among people who are affluent and well educated, not among the working class.

    So it's not my people who are voting wedge issues, creative class, it's yours.

    Thanks for the link (none / 0) (#181)
    by tree on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:48:45 PM EST
     I keep trying to find the lessons to be learned from this turd of a primary.(Perhaps akin to shoveling for the pony, I admit.) The link provides some very good counterbalance to the idea that "Obama was only telling the truth" in his "bitter-cling" comment.  

      Best as I can summarize now, one of the major lessons here is how prevalent all sorts of stereotypes and prejudices exist in people that don't consider themselves to be at all prejudicial.

    [ Parent ]

    Judgement (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:38:08 AM EST
     Since I personally never read or go to KOS before you all stopped going there, I proclaim that I have the upper hand in judgement and leadership.  So there.  

    SO? (none / 0) (#94)
    by Fabian on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:44:09 AM EST
    Is Hillary a Dem or not?
    [snark!]

    [ Parent ]
    Duh...yah... (none / 0) (#106)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:50:02 AM EST
    oops..did not qualify my <snark>  Yeah, she will stoop to being a Democrat.  

    [ Parent ]
    Hey Stellaaa (none / 0) (#170)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 12:12:31 PM EST
    Dint she pretty much stoop to being a Democrat for the better part of her life? I think I read that somewhere. :)

    [ Parent ]
    I think it's disturbing how contorted (5.00 / 6) (#82)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:38:10 AM EST
    the logic has to be these days for people like Markos, and those who follow along like sheep in his herd, to be able to keep Obama in the superior position.

    I don't know how anyone who heard Hillary's passionate declarations for the party and for party unity - regardless of who was the Democratic nominee - could believe that she is not a real Democrat.  I guess I am wavering between wondering if the Orange Crowd truly believes Obama has redefined what a Democrat is, and on that basis, Clinton does not fit the mold, or they so badly want Obama to be the nominee that it's the only way they can mentally cut Clinton out of the picture.  Either way, the news I have for Markos is that those Democrats who have been voting for Hillary know what a "real" Democrat is.

    I did not hear anything from Obama last night - other than a gratutitous word or two forced from him by the moderators - that reflected his pride in being a Democrat; she had to include him in the declaration that the party would come together, because she knew he would not.  

    I know the Orange Ones and the Marshall crowd were angry that their candidate was on the receiving end of unfair questions, but their lack of outrage at the unfair questioning and coverage that has been going on for months now leaves me feeling no sympathy at all.  I mean, they have been part and parcel of that, and I don't see them being capable of self-directed outrage, so now they are in a position of looking like spoiled and petulant children...I've seen that same attitude in Obama, so maybe there is an affinity there that we just don't understand.

    Come on, Tuesday - the suspense is killing me!

    shame (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by rose city on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:38:22 AM EST
    He should be ashamed, but he's not. Because he HAS no more shame. All he, and many others, have now is blind Hillary hate. And a willingness to destroy the entire party in order to take her down. This is the craziest thing I've ever seen.

    I think what Markos ought to ask himself... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:42:54 AM EST
    ... is are voters who agree with Hillary really Democrats? Or does he not want their votes anymore?

    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by OxyCon on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 10:44:18 AM EST
    Markos is the one who isn't a real DEM.
    He keeps going farther and farther left to the point where he is resembling the crazy, third world Leftists that cause countries all over the world grief. Especially the South American ones.

    There has never been a President in this country that was even close to being as far left as Markos and his gang.

    All he is doing is destroying the Democratic party by dragging it out of the mainstream with his slash and burn tactics against all the moderate Dems.

    America is a moderate country. It isn't far right and it isn't far left.

    Markos