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Yes, The DLC 'Supports' Obama

By Big Tent Democrat

NOTE- The DLC does not support either candidate officially. My post was not intended to state that, but to discuss why many DLC-type figure do support Obama. Sorry for any confusion.

There is something both sad and hilarious about Kagro X's outrage that that the DLC and Lieber-types like Dan Gerstein are on the Obama bandwagon:

Please, God, don't let Harold Ford clamber onto the back of this [Obama] bandwagon now. . . . Allowing them suckerfish themselves onto what Obama's managed to build for himself would be an unimaginable tragedy. Allowing them to do it while they're also endorsing Republicans for Congress is a recipe for disaster.

UPDATE: Lord help us, it's a trend:

2 . Friday February 15, 2008

. . . Bill Bennett discussed the political landscape with Democratic strategist and Obama supporter Dan Gerstein . . .

This is sad and hilarious because not for one moment can Kagro imagine WHY the DLC and Dan Gerstein might support Barack Obama. He can not imagine that Obama's Unity Schtick is precisely what the DLC and Joe Lieberman have been preaching for decades and that the progressive blogs were supposed to be fighting AGAINST.

Excuse me, but has anyone in the progressive blogs actually been paying attention to what Obama has been saying? Probably not, too busy slamming Hillary Clinton.

NOTE - comments are now closed in this thread.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Sen Obama (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    supporters have been very precise on who are the
    "Dividers".

    Posted this one earlier...

    The irony here is that the "Unity" message only works if there is a perceived "Divide". The current "Divide" is

    The Clintons
    Dems and Repubs in Washington
    Clinton Supporters
    Dem base

    Perceived "UNITER"

    Sen Obama
    Independents
    Obama supporters

    Lieber-types, I would think, would be on the UNITER's list. Maybe this is shifting.


    Obama wins (none / 0) (#6)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:19:49 AM EST
    both among independents and the most liberal wing of the party (part of his "donut" coalition). He loses against the moderates within the party

    [ Parent ]
    Actually that has flattened (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:23:27 AM EST
    He does most poorly with demographics that are not ideologically based now.

    Chris Bowers wrote about this the other day.

    That donut disappeared.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (none / 0) (#27)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:33:50 AM EST
    Do you have a link? Must have missed that post...

    [ Parent ]
    Not off the top of my head (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:37:06 AM EST
    Sorry.

    [ Parent ]
    mmm... (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:13:55 PM EST
    donuts...

    This thread points to a greater problem, which is that the democratic party is on the cusp of changing so much that the core dems might very well bolt.  


    [ Parent ]

    I think what you're describing (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:19:39 AM EST
    is that cognitive dissonance of the netroots.

    DLCers are Republicans now. (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Teresa on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:21:24 AM EST
    Intuitively, you are saying to yourself, "How can we expand our party by kicking people out."  Sometimes logic is counterintuitive.  It's very simple.  These DLC types represent 1-2% of the American people.  That's 3-6 million individuals and yes their votes count.  But if we kick these 3-6 milllion people out and show the American people that we will not tolerate bad Democrats who sell out the middle class to special interests, we'll gain 40 million new voters.

    I read that last night on diary over there. They want to kick these people out and gain 40 million Independents. Yay!

    By the way Kagro, Obama campaigned very effectively for Harold Ford.

    Yes he did (5.00 / 5) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:24:59 AM EST
    They are kindred spirits.

    [ Parent ]
    They both disdained (5.00 / 8) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:25:52 AM EST
    Daily Kos too. It seems to me that bandwagon jumping here can also be thrown at daily kos regarding the Obama campaign, if you want to get nasty about it.t

    [ Parent ]
    Yup, that's what's happened (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:27:43 AM EST
    and it's pretty icky to watch.

    [ Parent ]
    I remember (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:06:43 PM EST
    but why the fierce determination to get Obama elected when both he and Ford affirmatively discounted DK progressives.  I also remember Ford doing a segment for TPM Cafe where he was soundly dismissed.

    Is it about Hillary hatred or about women or just sensationalism.

    [ Parent ]

    "Icky?" Jeralyn, this is too, too (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:49:23 PM EST
    bland.  

    [ Parent ]
    Yep, and they need to compare Ford vs (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Teresa on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:28:50 AM EST
    Cooper. I'll take Ford anyday. Had he represented a blue state like Obama does, they'd be very similar. They preach exactly the same unity message.

    [ Parent ]
    Except that when Ford (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:31:11 AM EST
    did his "I love Jesus" campaigning , he was criticized on Daily Kos.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama was excoriated on DKos (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:37:32 AM EST
    in a diary there, before he was anointed by Markos.

    [ Parent ]
    That was me (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:38:56 AM EST
    I excoriated him.

    [ Parent ]
    Before he was anoited and (none / 0) (#92)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:05:23 PM EST
    then discarded after he lost and became head of the DLC. And that is what is scary about mob rule. No one looks at what the candidate is actually saying or not saying. They just start shouting and stoning the other person.

    Marcos said when he was getting ready to cast his absentee ballot why he was going to choose Obama. It was a process of elimination. He could not go for Edwards only because he was taking Federal funds. He liked Hillary personally but could not go for her because of the group she represented. He decided to go for Obama although he had reservations about him. He said that after listening to Obama speak, he was always left wondering if he had said anything. That there was no substance to the speech. People forget he was the one to say that. So even he is favoring the person he thinks can win which is exactly why he anoited Ford.

    [ Parent ]

    Harold Ford is terrible (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:22:11 PM EST
    Sorry, he is.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree once again (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:04:24 PM EST
    When he was running, I was like everyone else. We go with the candidate that we think has a chance of winning. I was appalled at any racial slurs against him. But when I would listen to him being interviewed or giving a speech, I was wondering if he was the right candidate. I knew he had the best chance of winning but I did not see him as a very strong Senator. I really was surprised to see him elected to the head of the DLC.

    [ Parent ]
    Kos had no love for Edwards (none / 0) (#116)
    by Josey on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:21:21 PM EST
    even BEFORE he accepted public financing.

    [ Parent ]
    That explains everything. (none / 0) (#158)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:50:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ford just said on TeeVee (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:35:40 AM EST
    That Chris Shays was the best representative in Congress. It's one thing to be a moderate in a moderate state. It's another to attack the party and actively undermine it, as Ford has a history of doing.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes indeed (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:38:34 AM EST
    It is bad to criticize the Dem Party. I HATE it when Dem candidates make the "pox on both houses" argument and decry "partisanship" as if both parites are equally at fault.

    Now can you think of a Presidential candidate that has done that? Hmmm?

    [ Parent ]

    Yes (none / 0) (#55)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:43:21 AM EST
    because Obama has a history of saying that the Democrats are also at fault...oh wait he hasn't ever said that actually.

    He's said consistently that people want to move in a progressive direction and that only by unifying the population will we be able to overcome Republican interests in Washington.

    Believe it or not, but he's never said it's the Democrats fault (except maybe to call out the sell-out Dems, which I have no problem with).

    [ Parent ]

    There must be two Obamas running. The (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Teresa on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:45:40 AM EST
    one you heard, I like much better than the one I hear.

    [ Parent ]
    You must be joking (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:51:59 AM EST
    Seriously you must be joking.

    I have written constantly about his saying JUST THAT.

    Excuse me but you suffer from blind love.

    [ Parent ]

    No, BTD is right (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:58:42 AM EST
    below is a "pox on both the houses" snippet w/ link and that was a quick search, his rhetoric very much lets the Republicans off the hook with the "everyone" is at fault logic

    In effect, this seems to lift some of the blame for the war from the Bush administration and place it on the backs of Democrats, an unlikely tack in a Democratic primary. "There are those who offer up easy answers. They will assert that Iraq is George Bush's war, it's all his fault. Or that Iraq was botched by the arrogance and incompetence of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney," Obama said in Coralville. "The hard truth is that the war in Iraq is not about a catalogue of many mistakes -- it is about one big mistake. The war in Iraq should never have been fought."

    Obama offered a similar argument two days later at a Boys and Girls Club in Waterloo, saying that the country was "failed by a president who didn't tell the whole truth" but that it was "also failed" by the rest of the D.C. establishment. But the crowd broke into such loud applause after his charge against Bush that his broader criticism of the Washington system sounded like an afterthought. Similarly, those moments on the trail when he allows himself to take clear shots at Bush -- on issues such as torture, military contractors and education funding -- tend to win him his loudest cheers.



    [ Parent ]
    I hate it about the Iraq War vote (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:19:29 PM EST
    Kennedy, who was in the Senate when voting for the Iraq War, could say that Hillary, Kerry, and Edwards should be forever spanked because they voted Yes based on the doctored information that was presented to them.94 Senators voted for the possibility of going for war as a united strength. I suspect that if Obama was sitting in that chamber that day, he would have voted on the war based upon that same information. I even might have. So when he says he was against it and was not even in the Senate at the time, I just feel like yelling at him that he didn't get to vote because he was not there and didn't know the facts that they had been given. It is not a fair argument and he gets a pass on this all the time. I can say this because I saw him take a vote only after Hillary voted. Why wouldn't he be the first one up there? He is waiting. He seems like a future leader, but right now I think he is still a follower. He makes his vote different only when he knows it does not matter.

    [ Parent ]
    To me it is similar to people (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:53:24 PM EST
    criticizing a jury verdict when they weren't on the jury, didn't hear the evidence, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    So... (none / 0) (#169)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:57:15 PM EST
    why did a majority of Dems in the House vote against the war, and also almost all of the Dems in the Senate that actually read the intelligence completely?

    It didn't take a rocket scientist to see that the case for war was using cooked intelligence. Even I knew that back then. Clinton took probably an opportunistic political stance to the right on the most important issue in Bush's administration. And she refuses to apologize for it.

    [ Parent ]

    He's right (none / 0) (#167)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:55:21 PM EST
    the Democrats really screwed up by not opposing the Iraq War. He's calling out the moderate Dems that gave Bush a free pass. I am totally fine with this kind of criticism.

    It's criticism from the right against Dems by Dems that I have an issue with. I have not seen Obama do this in any concerted way.

    [ Parent ]

    Now that I'm no longer a Dem (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:57:01 AM EST
    but an Independent, cool -- Obama will be reaching out to me, at last.  I await the awakening, praise Jesus.

    [ Parent ]
    Just look into his eyes (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by BernieO on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:19:57 PM EST
    and you will be saved

    [ Parent ]
    You realize that (4.66 / 3) (#159)
    by riddlerandy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:50:21 PM EST
    you are starting to sound like the left's version of Hannity and Limbaugh

    [ Parent ]
    Progressives RIP (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by koshembos on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:24:08 AM EST
    has anyone in the progressive blogs actually been paying attention to what Obama has been saying?

    Of course, you provide the answer yourself. I don't believe the Democrats had ever been seen a hate based movement. What this may imply that the progressive movement is the casualty. The Nation and Kos, Josh and others have forfeited their standing as spokepersons for a movement that is suddenly rudderless. It might take a generation and self examination to dig ourselves out of the mindless hate pit.

    This is a mighty and sad change.

    Hate based? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Jgarza on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:35:18 AM EST
    I don't believe the Democrats had ever been seen a hate based movement.

    jeez, if this isn't the most ridiculous statements i have ever heard.   I just went to an Obama rally last night(it was huge i got to shake his hand).  There is rarely even mention of Hillary Clinton.  Contrast that to her rallies as of late, you have surrogates insulting Obama supporters, she asks rhetorical questions about Obama to which her crowd yells NO!!!

    The idea that there is anything hate based about Obamas support is silly.

    [ Parent ]

    You have been going to Clinton rallies too? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:42:01 AM EST
    Very open minded of you.

    [ Parent ]
    I hope, hope, hope (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by oldpro on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:59:54 AM EST
    he got to shake her hand!

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:03:47 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hate based - I hope! (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:59:11 AM EST
    Well, history may paint a different picture.

    The ferocious attack on Sen Clinton from the media and blogs paint a differnt picture than the messainic display at the rallies.

    Sen Obama has the advantage of letting the subordinates do the dirty work ... and they can get away with more sexism and mistatemants under current atmosphere.

    I would hope that these normal citizens who have a basically good being.... are acting out due to intense dislike (hate). I can't believe that the name calling and sexist remark that have been thrown at me for being a Hillary supporter are due to the "Love".

    [ Parent ]

    On the blogs there is hate (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by BarnBabe on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    Some diaries are so offensive and the comments worse. The problem is that so much is not based upon actual facts but on one candidate is God and the other one is SheDevil or Satan. Yes, there is hate. As bad as the Right Wingnuts saying that if you didn't vote for GW, you are going to Hades. Well, we went there. So much for that theory.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, actually, (none / 0) (#148)
    by Boston Boomer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:44:42 PM EST
    the Democratic Party in the South used to be pretty hate-based before LBJ signed the Civil Rights bill.


    [ Parent ]
    It is hilarious. Over at Dailykos a week (5.00 / 7) (#23)
    by tigercourse on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:32:03 AM EST
    or two ago, the big man himself was saying that his dream ticket would be Obama/Sebelius or Obama/Richardson and I had a big old laugh. Many of their favorite political figures are straight up DLC or just moderates who were never asked to the party. Mark Warner will probably be their favored candidate in 2012 if Obama loses the general.

    Barack Obama is almost a perfect personification of the DLC ideal. He's their Howard Roarke.

    Mark Warner has been a favorite over there (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:33:27 AM EST
    for ages.

    [ Parent ]
    I know, it simply makes no sense. (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by tigercourse on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:40:58 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Hey now (none / 0) (#85)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:02:36 PM EST
    Mark Warners was a good governor, but more importantly, he single handedly reversed VAs "RED" to a trending "BLUE" by using his popularity, and by strengthening the economy (which created jobs that brought in emigrants from other states that vote blue)

    [ Parent ]
    Like Jerome (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    Markos wanted Mark Warner to run for President.

    [ Parent ]
    He might still get his wish. If we don't win (none / 0) (#56)
    by tigercourse on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:44:19 AM EST
    this election, I think the party will flock to the Southern moderate white guy. President Warner, Vice President Bill Ritter. That's my prediction.

    [ Parent ]
    Mark Warner (none / 0) (#42)
    by Nasarius on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:39:42 AM EST
    Ah yes, I remember Kos's brief love affair with Mark Warner, when only a governor could possibly win the Presidency. Obama may have been a turning point for some progressive blogs, but I think a lot of very diverse people have coalesced under the anti-Bush banner, and many of them weren't particularly liberal to begin with.

    [ Parent ]
    Jim Webb is a good example (none / 0) (#90)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:04:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    When Rahm Emmanuel (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by ivs814 on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:39:38 AM EST
    told Bill to ratchet down the "racist" comments, you had a sense that the rats were jumping off the ship they were only too delighted to sink.  Kos, TPM and company have become what they professed to despise. They are now in bed with the likes of Andrew Sullivan and will come to wonder how they woke up with whores after an intoxicated love-fester of monumental proportions.

    Good post. (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by my opinion on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    I believe many of the pro-Obama bloggers are aware of this. Doesn't say much for their integrity.

    My two cents worth (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:41:44 AM EST
    Obama's Campaign staff is riddled with advisors who worked for Clinton during the 1990's and belong to some fairly to very conservative think groups and institutions.  Obama like Clinton appears to be a centrist in my opinion.  

    It's a matter of degrees (none / 0) (#61)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:46:02 AM EST
    Clinton and Obama are both moderate in a larger sense (they'd probably be conservatives in Europe); but Obama's advisers, in general, skew toward the more progressive end than do Clinton's supporters.

    [ Parent ]
    Not on economic policy (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    That is flat out false.

    [ Parent ]
    No, you're incorrect (none / 0) (#74)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:54:33 AM EST
    see here and here

    They are about the same.

    [ Parent ]

    So now they are about the same (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:02:43 PM EST
    Before Obama's were more progressive. Make up your mind.

    [ Parent ]
    I said in general (none / 0) (#152)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:47:07 PM EST
    Let's look at their foreign policy and telecom advisers shall we?

    [ Parent ]
    I do not know about telecom advisors (none / 0) (#175)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    but I am very skeptical of the claim on foreign policy advisors.

    Wes Clark supports Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    Sure, let's compare (none / 0) (#187)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:09:24 PM EST
    links here here and here

    Gist:


    And especially Richard Holbrooke, who is going to be probably the next secretary of state under a Clinton government. It's very important to remember that Richard Holbrooke, when he was assistant secretary of state for East Asia, he was propping up Ferdinand Marcos, the dictator of the Philippines when he was alive, and also dictator Suharto in Indonesia in terms of repression of East Timor. Richard Holbrooke is kind of a hawk, actually. He says that Iran is a threat, and Ahmadinejad is Hitler, which would easily put him in the neocon column for that matter. Basically, most of the Clinton advisers were pro-war on Iraq, while Obama's advisers, most of them were against.


     They have also included some of the more enlightened and creative members of the Democratic Party establishment, such as Joseph Cirincione and Lawrence Korb of the Center for American Progress, and former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke. His team also includes the noted human rights scholar and international law advocate Samantha Power - author of a recent New Yorker article on U.S. manipulation of the UN in post-invasion Iraq - and other liberal academics.


    The well-publicized contrast between Hillary Clinton's early backing of the Bush administration's war effort and Barack Obama's early opposition, has to a degree been replicated in the less visible network of foreign policy advisers that each candidate has cultivated -- the early war opponents by Obama, and the one-time hawks by Clinton.

    The differing histories of the candidates on Iraq, reinforced by the parallel commitments of their advisers, suggests - but does not guarantee - that Clinton and Obama would, if elected, adopt substantially dissimilar approaches to international relations and to national security threats. If the past and the advisers are a guide, then Clinton would be expected to adopt a tougher line, and would be likely to threaten, and perhaps use, force more readily than Obama.



    [ Parent ]
    His health care plan (none / 0) (#119)
    by BernieO on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:23:58 PM EST
    clearly is to the right of hers. And he lied about it in the ad that says his plan covers more people than hers does.

    [ Parent ]
    Not on health policy either. n/t (none / 0) (#121)
    by standingup on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:25:19 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I think the healthcare issue alone (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:07:32 PM EST
    disproves this statement...

    Obama's plan is a "poison pill" plan, so he can say "there I tried" or if he wants it to pass, it can EASILY be watered to down to keep "all sides"

    Thats not a slam on Obama though, just a policy difference, and a political calculation (probably a smart one at that)

    [ Parent ]

    Here is a couple of names to keep in mind (none / 0) (#126)
    by Florida Resident on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:27:05 PM EST
    they are economic advisors to Obama

    David Cutler: Harvard economist who believes
    that high health costs are good for the economy

    Jeffrey Liebman: another Harvard economist and
    former Clinton adviser who favors privatizing social security

    Research them and see what you find.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been lurking on this blog for a while... (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:50:35 AM EST
    ...but this thread inspired me to register so that I could comment. This is exactly what I've been telling my husband since the beginning of this campaign. Not that he's a Hillary basher, but he has bought the unity promise hook, line, and sinker. And when I've pointed out to him that it will mean compromising with the Liebermans and Gersteins of this world, he keeps insisting that Obama doesn't really "like" those people.

    It doesn't mean compromising for Obama (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:08:32 PM EST
    Obama IS a Lieberman/Gerstein...it means compromising for the rest of us...

    [ Parent ]
    My feelings exactly. nt (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Maria Garcia on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:16:15 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Right. The one thing Obama clearly says is that he (none / 0) (#151)
    by derridog on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    for unity. He doesn't mean with the Democrats, obviously, but he DOES mean with the Republicans. Take the man at his word! BTD is completely right about the irony here.

    [ Parent ]
    Lieberman (none / 0) (#123)
    by BernieO on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:25:57 PM EST
    was Obama's mentor in the Senate.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you, BTD (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by annabelly on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:14:01 PM EST
    for saying this:

    "He can not imagine that Obama's Unity Schtick is precisely what the DLC and Joe Lieberman have been preaching for decades and that the progressive blogs were supposed to be fighting AGAINST."

    Because that is the truth of the matter. You nailed it right there.

    Just have to say (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by MichaelGale on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:08:10 PM EST
    this is the most interesting thread.

    Thanks

    The Non-story (5.00 / 1) (#222)
    by pluege on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 02:34:54 PM EST
    everyone except Obama's blinded followers know that Obama is an establishment insider, more so than even HRC. Its perfectly natural and expected that for the DLC and Lieber-types to support Obama.
    .

    But it's a different wing (none / 0) (#224)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 04:18:58 PM EST
    of the Establishment. NOT the wing of the DLC and Lieber-types. Very few are blind enough to think he's any kind of an outsider.

    [ Parent ]
    So why (3.66 / 3) (#2)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:16:57 AM EST
    is Clinton's campaign run by the biggest DLC players of the last 20 years? The people you pick as your: 1) adviser 2) spokesperson 3) fundraising chair say absolutely nothing about the values you are likely to espouse as president?

    By way of contrast, Axelrod is a student of Saul Alinsky's community organizing philosophy, and has specialized in putting real progressives in office. Same with David Plouffe.

    You mean Mark Penn of course (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:20:28 AM EST
    I am not sure if he is tied to the DLC, but philosophically his politica; theory is very much DLC.

    The funny thing is so is David Axelrod's. They are peas in a pod. That is the funniest thing of all.

    But I look at what is being said by the candidates, not who is running the campaign and clearly you KNOW you can not deny my point on WHAT OBAMA HAS SAID, especially as compared to what Clinton has said.

    Your resort to straw makes my point.

    More significant than Mark Penn or David Axelrod is Jim Cooper. Look him up.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not sure the Jim Cooper (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST
    really reflects all that well on the Clintons either.

    Regardless, I'm a big fan of the theory that policy positions announced on the campaign trail are less indicative of the kind of president someone will be, as opposed to the kind of people they surround themselves with.

    Look at Bush - Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the whole crew was a massive tell about his foreign policy strategy, despite what he said on the campaign trail.

    And in that regard, while Obama's advisers aren't the perfect grouping of people I'd pick, they are light-years better than Clinton's team.


     On June 15, 1993, Cooper met with Clinton to discuss their differences. Clinton was "ice cold" at the meeting, Cooper recalls. "It was the coldest reception of my life. I was excoriated."

    Cooper told her that she was getting pulled too far to the left. He warned that her plan would never get through Congress. Clinton's response, Cooper now says, was: "We'll crush you. You'll wish you never mentioned this to me."

    In the weeks and months following that meeting, the Clinton administration reached out to Cooper. As David Broder and Haynes Johnson wrote in "The System," their history of the health care reform effort, President Bill Clinton invited Cooper to go jogging and play golf. Others in the Clinton White House thought Cooper was right on the merits, and privately let him know.

    link

    [ Parent ]

    I think he reflects incredibly well on Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:35:21 AM EST
    Jim Cooper is someone I would want to have against me, not with me.

    He will fight progressive change tooth and nail. If he is on my side then he must think I am not for progressive change.

    BTW, you know Hillary Clinton was an Alinsky disciple? Not that that means anything to me. I here Alinsky bandied about all the time but no one ever explains to me what Alinsky accomplished.

    I do always like one thing Alinsky said - politicians do what they do and activists MUST do what activists do. The "activists" in the progressive base have stopped being activists.

    [ Parent ]

    I can think of a book (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:38:28 AM EST
    "From Activists to Shills: How the Netroots Learned to Stop Worrying and 'Embrace the Change'."

    [ Parent ]
    Sounds like a real page turner. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Boston Boomer on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:28:30 PM EST
    Are you going to write it?

    [ Parent ]
    Ugh (none / 0) (#137)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:33:53 PM EST
    I don't think I care enough anymore.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary and Alinsky (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:11:55 PM EST
    When she did her thesis on Alinsky, she interviewed him and he liked her so much he offered her a job.  She had in the meantime wanted to go to law school.  

    Alinsky wrote books but really was the force behind the community development activism of the 70's and 80's.  The up shot really of what he did is that most of the affordable housing development and economic development has shifted from being privatized and or owned by local governments, through Housing Authorities, to being developed owned and managed by community based non profit corporations.  The non profits started with resisting urban renewal efforts or other "blight removal" government financed for the private benefit.  

    I guess not to sound obsessive, this is where I had my falling out with Obama.  In his answers to the Sun Times about the failure of Rezko's projects, he answered that affordable housing fails because of "neighborhood demographics" "crime" and socioeconomic conditions.  Now, for him to claim the banner of Alinsky after saying this is frankly incredibly offensive to Alinsky and everyone who has worked to create affordable housing in Low income communities.  

    This is why I do not believe any part of the Obama narrative.  

    [ Parent ]

    Alinsky quote (none / 0) (#109)
    by Stellaaa on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:18:19 PM EST
    Change means movement. Movement means friction. Only in the frictionless vacuum of a nonexistent abstract world can movement or change occur without that abrasive friction of conflict.
    Saul Alinsky

    I want to see how the change without friction will take place.  Alinsky organizing is very confrontational.  Basically, it was the non socialist/commie left of the 60's and 70's.  

    [ Parent ]

    No she isn't (none / 0) (#46)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    She wrote her senior thesis at Dartmouth saying how wrong that philosophy is.

    Alinsky in a nutshell:


    "There's another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families - more than seventy million people - whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year [in 1971]. They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don't encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let's not let it happen by default.."

    Alinsky is often credited with laying the foundation for the grassroots political organizing that dominated the 1960s.[3] Later in his life he encouraged stockholders in public corporations to lend their votes to "proxies", who would vote at annual stockholders meetings in favor of social justice. While his grassroots style took hold in American activism, his call to stock holders to share their power with disenfranchised working poor only began to take hold in U.S. progressive circles in the 1990s, when shareholder actions were organized against American corporations.

    link

    [ Parent ]

    No that is incorrect (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:45:11 AM EST
    She did NOT excoriate Saul Alinsky. Just as is the wont of Obama sycophants, any critical word about a hero is unacceptable. It was apositive piece on Alinsky.

    BTW, I know some of you like to think of Clinton as a Republican, and Dartmouth fits the bill better, but I believe she attended Wellesley. but perhaps she took a semester at Dartmouth.

    [ Parent ]

    You can read it for yourself (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:50:57 AM EST
    The Boston Globe's assessment: found the thesis nuanced, and said that "While [Rodham] defends Alinsky, she is also dispassionate, disappointed, and amused by his divisive methods and dogmatic ideology."

    Not exactly a major supporter of him. She called him "the great seducer of young minds".


    her thesis in full


    [ Parent ]

    Nuanced (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:55:01 AM EST
    That is a synonym now for excoriation?

    You are too funny.

    What is not nuanced is the view you have of Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (none / 0) (#118)
    by spit on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:23:52 PM EST
    that's not what I get from reading it at all. She's critical of Alinsky in some places, and spends a good deal of time on what the "modern" (1969) context might mean for some of Alinsky's earlier work, but overall the piece is full of respect for him.

    I've not read the whole thing yet, but your quote seems way off to me.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama supporters (1.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:36:30 PM EST
    don't do nuance.

    [ Parent ]
    Apparently not (none / 0) (#162)
    by spit on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:52:30 PM EST
    because even what I've read is really very positive toward him, though certainly nuanced in that it looks at potential limitations or problems in his form of movement building for effecting radical change (which is what one would expect in a solid thesis).

    It's actually a pretty impressive paper so far, IMO. I'm sorry I hadn't read through it sooner.

    [ Parent ]

    I like to think (none / 0) (#193)
    by hvs on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:17:40 PM EST
    my support of Obama is well-reasoned as well as principled; as is my opposition to Hillary Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    do you understand (none / 0) (#134)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:32:07 PM EST
    that this is editorializing, and that you are quoting an OPINION someone has of the original piece rather than the original piece?

    "she is also dispassionate, disappointed, and amused by his divisive methods and dogmatic ideology."



    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of senior theses, Michelle (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    Obama's now has been "released" and made available.  have you read it?  Interesting topic -- disappointment with what W.E.B. DuBois called the "talented tenth," other African American alumni of her Ivy League alma mater but who became less radical.

    [ Parent ]
    Mark Penn = David Axelrod? Not. (none / 0) (#196)
    by AdrianLesher on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    As The Nation notes, "[c]olleagues point out that he's uncommonly idealistic for someone in his line of work" Does that sound like Mark Penn? No.

    Instead, Axelrod seems to have been drawn to Obama early on because he inspired him:

    Fifteen years ago, David Axelrod was a political consultant based in Chicago, where Barack Obama, fresh from Harvard Law School and largely unknown, was coordinating a voter registration drive. One day Axelrod got a call from a friend.

    "She said, 'I just met the most extraordinary person,' " he recounted. " 'I think he may be the president of the United States one day.' And I thought, 'That's kind of a grandiose thing to say.' "

    The men met and became friendly. When Axelrod heard in 2002 that Obama was considering a Senate run, he thought, "What a difference he could make."

    Notably, Axelrod is named by Ed Rollins as someone who knows how to fight back against Republicans:

    In his 1996 memoir "Bare Knuckles and Back Rooms," Ed Rollins, the Republican strategist, put Axelrod at the head of a list of "Guys I Never Want to See Lobbing Grenades at Me Again."

    It is also good news that , as Wired magazine notes, he is one of the most effective users of "new tech strategies" in getting out the vote. This compares favorably with the Clinton campaign's hamhanded use of new technology (we do want to win, don't we?).

    Penn, on the other hand, is clearly a corporatist and a person who would like to push the Democratic party to the right.  His DLC connections attest to this as do his corporate clients with Penn and Schoen (McDonalds, British Petroleum, Microsoft), Metlife, etc). and at Burson Marsteller (whose clients appear to include a large part of the corporate universe).

    Penn's vast corporate contacts, of course, raise vast conflict of interest questions that would embarass even John Mccain, as noted in this Nation article entitled "Spinning Hillary Centrist."

    Additionally, of course, it is Penn who has long sought to curry favor with more conservative voters. As noted by fellow-hack David Brooks:

    In a series of D.L.C. memos with titles like "The Decisive Center," Penn has preached that while Republicans can win by appealing only to conservatives, Democrats must appeal to centrists as well as liberals. In his new book, "Microtrends," he casts a caustic eye on the elites and mega-donors of both parties who are out of touch with average voter concerns.

    David Axelrod actually seems to have progressive instincts. The same cannot be said for corporate hack Mark Penn.

    [ Parent ]

    Ahhh THE NATION says so (none / 0) (#201)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:22:45 PM EST
    then it must be so. Are you freaking serious?

    [ Parent ]
    BTD (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Kathy on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:26:17 PM EST
    you are forgetting your own rules.  When Obama supporters and paid advisors have these links, it's because he's a unifier and has brought them to his vision.  When Clinton supporters and paid advisors have these links, it is because she is evil...the same type of evil on display when she tried to get ratings on violent video games.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you think (3.66 / 3) (#5)
    by standingup on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:19:44 AM EST
    they, all the progressive blogs that have been so pro-Obama, honestly did not see the DLC connection with Obama?  I have assumed that it was simply their hatred for Hillary that allowed them to appear so hypocritical when it came to Obama and the DLC.  

    What DLC connection? (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:21:26 AM EST
    Obama fought to have his name taken off the DLC website and has worked hard to try and keep them away from him.

    Clinton, on the other hand, practically has the DLC central committee on retainer for her campaign.

    [ Parent ]

    The rhetorical connection (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:24:17 AM EST
    The Third Way connection.

    Think Bill Clinton circa 1992 and think Obama circa 2008. Very similar.

    That is the connection.

    [ Parent ]

    We are back to this (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jgarza on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:30:25 AM EST
    argument?  
    rhetorical connection

    That just a silly statement. It is clear the DLC is not a relevant organization in the Dem party, so they are jumping on the guy who they perceive as the winner, to try and argue that they are.

    [ Parent ]

    Silly to you (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:32:29 AM EST
    not to me.

    [ Parent ]
    The only way you could believe this (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by andgarden on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:32:38 AM EST
    would be if you were completely unfamiliar with the rhetoric of the DLC over the past 8 years.

    [ Parent ]
    The past 8 years? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jgarza on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:38:23 AM EST
    You mean the time that Hillary has been involved with them.

    I really don't see how acknowledging you republicans support to get legislation passed is DLC, it is reality.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama was involved with them too (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:42:55 AM EST
    Dirty little secret that.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes (none / 0) (#57)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:44:33 AM EST
    So involved that he demanded that they take his name off their website and has not had anyone that has any DLC connection in his top leadership positions.

    Unlike, say, another presidential candidate.

    [ Parent ]

    And but he was involved before that (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 11:54:04 AM EST
    Of course after that he requested it be removed because well, the DLC was out of favor.

    But he WAS involved with the DLC prior to that. That is a fact.

    [ Parent ]

    Not to mention the Lieberman connection (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Virginian on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:10:42 PM EST
    BTW is there some unspoken rule about mentioning this?

    [ Parent ]
    Links? Data? (none / 0) (#149)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:44:44 PM EST
    I want to see it.

    [ Parent ]
    The DLC site (none / 0) (#160)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:50:21 PM EST
    covered the imbroglio at the time.

    I am sure you could find it if you wanted to.

    [ Parent ]

    I've seen a lot of smoke about this (none / 0) (#176)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:00:25 PM EST
    but never any fire. Lots of people "say" he's been part of the DLC but I've never seen any actual evidence.

    [ Parent ]
    I doubt you ever will see it (none / 0) (#180)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:03:22 PM EST
    And not because it does not exist.

    [ Parent ]
    Being a member (a fact) (none / 0) (#190)
    by andrewwm on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:14:11 PM EST
    and being accused by people on blogs of running a DLC style campaign (an opinion, and unrelated to what you are claiming) are two wildly different things.

    [ Parent ]
    Involved with (none / 0) (#199)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:21:26 PM EST
    does not make a member.

    I never said he was a member.

    [ Parent ]