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Late Night: Post Debate Thread II

(Comments now closed, new thread is here.)

Via No Quarter:

We're having server issues due to traffic spikes or something like that. While Colin, our webmaster works on it, here's a new thread to discuss the debate and other topics.

I also have to finish deleting the insults and personal sniping from the first debate threads.

Please, keep it civil. We are almost at the end of this interminably long primary process, with just a few weeks to go. There are two remaining candidates. State your opinions without rancor.

Update: Debate transcript is here.

< Texas Post-Debate Live Thread | Texas Debate: The Morning After >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Kathy, I've also gotten emails (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:21:36 PM EST
    about the xerox line.  Spoke to my son after the debate and the first thing he said was that he liked the xerox line.

    I swear journalists have absolutely no idea what strikes the guy on the street as funny and effective.


    I liked the Xerox line too (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:22:39 PM EST
    In fact I think I said it in one of the Talkleft thread....I'm guessing Hillary plagierized(sp) me.

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto -- I said I liked it because (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:27:28 PM EST
    I like a fighter, and I like a memorable line.  She doesn't do a lot of them, but this one will stick . . . like a bad sheet of paper caught in the Xerox machine tray, if ya know what I mean. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Just watched the local news - (none / 0) (#13)
    by liminal on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:33:26 PM EST
    - and they highlighted the Xerox line.  The local news broadcasts into Ohio as well.  I bet it gets a lot of play on broadcasts people actually WATCH (you know, because there is a winter storm going on and we need to know where it is going and what it will do), as opposed to the hyperbolic echo chambers of the cable news channels.  

    [ Parent ]
    Huff Post, of course, has Xerox (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:36:58 PM EST
    line and booing as title of debate article.

    [ Parent ]
    Good - Hillary is using her enemy (none / 0) (#50)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:53:29 PM EST
    The Clinton team knows that her enemies in the media will love to talk about how she got booed for being negative with that line, but what they will create for her instead is a continuing narrative of the Obama plagiarism story for FREE.

    The more they keep bringing up the "change you can xerox" quote the more that non-politial junkies get to hear about Obama's habit of copying.  They will wonder -- what's this xerox thing about?  And then they will find their answers.

    It is obvious to me that the Clinton team knows the plagiarism/phony Obama stories were working in her favor so they put out a well crafted line that is sure to be quoted in all the papers.

    The positive ending with standing ovation negated any possible narrative that Hillary was angry or desperate in this debate (which she wasn't at all of course)  But the media was going to try...  

    It's brilliant strategy.  Oh by the way, the last 2 days Hillary has caught up in the Gallup tracking numbers.  The Obama momentum is vulnerable.

    [ Parent ]

    I have to watch the video of the (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:57:39 PM EST
    ending because my computer kept freezing up, probably because I had both TL's live blog and CNN.com open.  

    [ Parent ]
    here is a link (none / 0) (#73)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:03:53 PM EST
    just in case that doesn't work (none / 0) (#92)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:15:05 PM EST
    I love irony. (none / 0) (#75)
    by GV on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:05:30 PM EST
    If you want to watch the ending of Hillary's speech, just go here.

    [ Parent ]
    good, Edwards rocks (none / 0) (#98)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:18:13 PM EST
    Edwards supporters can find a home with Hillary! lol.

    [ Parent ]
    obama fizzle (none / 0) (#179)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:15:10 AM EST
    thats because his momentum is hollow, and based mostly on irrational teen fans who don't know what month the general election is in... I can't beleive it when i hear supposidly rational adults questioning their own judgment in the face of the Pundits grand announcement, "Well, the kids are doing it!" What was the last major decision you left up to irrational 18 yr olds who you didn't know????????? Trust me! I'm a young Hillary voter, and i can't believe what i'm seeing from some ADULTs this year!

    [ Parent ]
    Ralph (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:25:29 PM EST
    Sometimes I think, "did I have a mini stroke and didn't notice?"  because it seems like the pundits see things that I don't.  I am just gobsmacked by some of the comments being made tonight, and that crap about the "swan song" and bowing out gracefully is just ludicrous.  They are treating it as a done deal.  2% separates the two of them in delegate counts.  There are three more huge states to go.  It's just like Bush with Florida when Fox was saying that there had to be a recount, and we were all, like, "what?"  Only, now the folks who so ardently led the charge to count all the votes are telling her to throw in the towel.  They don't even talk about Huckabee this way and there is no way he can possibly get the nom.

    This should be a Twilight Episode.  It really should be.  She was brilliant, she brought the audience to their feet and that Xerox thing is going to score big time.

    [ Parent ]

    I know. They are so bad calling it her ending (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:35:58 PM EST
    They even suggested that she will throw in the towel and be classy so she can run in 2012. What is with that? I hope not. I was for Edwards and I felt he got out too soon. He kept the debates going. I am in Penna and I want a chance to vote in this primary. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry got to vote for the Democratic candidate. At least I am a Democrat who wants to vote and not have it all chosen and closed by the time it gets to me.

    [ Parent ]
    i agree!!! (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:38:56 PM EST
    Is it just me, or does CNN have an unspoken endorsement for Obama... Even Bill O'Reilly talked about it the other night. He said the liberal media has jumped on board for her downfall... I had to agree with him. My girlfriend says it's because she's a woman, and this is American mysogeny at work...I don't know...I used to like CNN.

    [ Parent ]
    Media (none / 0) (#172)
    by ChrisM on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:10:23 AM EST
    Both CNN and MSNBC have become Obama Central, just like FNC used to be Giuliani central.

    I used to like watching Keith Olbermann but I can't anymore. The pro-BO is way too pronounced for my taste. Even the great Rachel Maddow is hard to watch in that respect.

    Don't get me wrong, I think HRC has received bad advice from her campaign. She should focus on her strengths... like tonight when she talked about foreign policy, she owned the place.

    One thing no one ever questioned is her smarts and command of the issues. She should focus on that.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama on foreign (none / 0) (#192)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:33:40 AM EST
    policy sounded quite good.  I think he did better on Iraq, and Hillary didn't have quite as much gas here...Particularly when Obama said staying in Iraq 100 years is not just about soliders dying but also about all the money being spent....He sounded more able to take this to McCain.

    Hillary did well in being personable.....I too thought that her final statement was "validictory"--it sounded to me as if she were saying goodbye and she was receiving a thank you from Democrats....I just saw tonight how she would accept defeat....

    Obama looked like the nominee....looking toward McCain....Hillary talks about Bush, not McCain.

    I heard that Congresswoman Tubbs said after the debate that Hillary made it to the mountaintop tonight just as did MLK--unfortunate comparison.....Hillary's last, best moment....

    But time will tell....

    [ Parent ]

    Mini-strokes must be going around :-) (none / 0) (#21)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:38:17 PM EST
    That swan song stuff has got to be because lots of people have no idea of graciousness.  Seemed to me that she was showing good manners and that's hardly bowing out.

    Twilight Zone is an apt description of this whole campaign season.

    About "xerox", a guy at work has got several videos of Obama/Patrick "sharing" and even a couple of Obama "sharing" Edwards speech fragments from '04.  He's a Republican so those will probably go to the RNC once he has compiled enough of them.  Certainly more than a couple now.

    Local TV a bit earlier showed the debate watch party when Clinton was there.  Room looked full and loud.  Just went back to it for Obama's appearance and it's no longer full.  Don't know what that means but FWIW.


    [ Parent ]

    did you see the vanilla ice one? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:43:09 PM EST
    check out No Quarter.  Hilarious.

    I wonder, though--is someone tracking down the "2 times" statement?  Because I was under the impression that it was more than twice; or perhaps I am confusing it with other folks he's "shared ideas" with?  I think that might be an issue.

    Also, the Clinton campaign (sorry for posting this twice) pointed out that Obama has waffled on the Cuban embargo, which will matter to Cuban Americans (and frankly should matter to all of them)

    I think she's going to nail him on the waffling vis-a-vis sitting down with world leaders.  He already gave a disastrous photo op in Kenya.  Perhaps he's learned from that mistake?  At any rate, I don't know what the difference is between "preconditions" and whatever word he used--negotiations?  He was basically saying what she said, but used more words and made it less clear.

    I mean, how many times did he do that?  Say exactly what she said, or say I agree with her, but I would do X, only she had already mentioned X?  Cream, you were right about the classroom analogy.  He is just like every ninth grade boy I have ever seen--loves the sound of his own voice.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama waffling on Cuba (none / 0) (#42)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:49:00 PM EST
    I forget who said it on CNN, but they said his position had become "more nuanced" in the debate followup. Clinton would have been waffling, pandering, triangulating, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Problem is that I was talking about (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:49:37 PM EST
    those ninth-grade boys who grow up to be professors and still talk like that.  I start to zone . . . but then, I did that a lot in ninth grade, too.  Luckily, I'm a boomer, so with sixty and more of us in every classroom, the teachers didn't notice me doodling instead of taking notes.

    Btw, about Obama's nonstop writing on his legal pad, is he writing?  I have this weird sense that he's doodling, too, until he gets a chance to talk again.  I still do that in meetings, too.:-)

    [ Parent ]

    I think his writing (none / 0) (#51)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:54:34 PM EST
    just goes to the same problem I have stated from the get-go: he is unseasoned.  Look at Clinton while he Obama talking--nodding, smiling, engaged.  Even when he's attacking her, she's smiling.  Now look at him; his face is a mask and even when he's not furious or annoyed, he looks it because he's just got that kind of face.  He's writing, he's looking down, he's waving his hand in the air to make sure they know he doesn't agree with her.  All of these mannerisms are going big problems when the media doesn't adore you anymore.

    Remember what they did to Al Gore with the sighing?  Obama has got to realize that he is on camera at all times and needs to look as if he is paying attention, even if he isn't.  This public face during debates is a real issue, and if he manages to get the nom and goes up against McCain in the ge, Obama is going to look like an antsy kid next to the more seasoned, rehearsed McCain.  (apparently, it matters more when it's two men)

    People say they want politicians to be genuine and unrehearsed and "real"...ask Howard Dean how that worked for him.

    [ Parent ]

    Check out the Meyers-Briggs type (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:59:00 PM EST
    analysis at Saloon.  He's a doodler alright.

    [ Parent ]
    Oops. It is at Slate. (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:14:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And here I was hoping that (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:24:44 PM EST
    there really is an online magazine called Saloon.

    Now I'm always going to think of Salon that way. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    Yes! the Vanilla Ice clip is hilarious (none / 0) (#45)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:51:04 PM EST
    and the Bamboozled video over there is also great.

    There's certainly more than 2, unless the guy where I work is doing more than 1 of each.  I'll see what I can find out from him on Monday.


    [ Parent ]

    understand (none / 0) (#169)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:06:24 AM EST
    you're right! He always says "Understand..." AS IF WE DIDN'T! This is the most important election in a long long time. I sure as heck understand...That's why i voted for Hillary in MA!

    [ Parent ]
    won't they freak when she wins!!!! (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycvoter on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:44:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    That line played better than some think (none / 0) (#40)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:48:43 PM EST
    it did not get a negative reaction from focus groups.  Just because a few people in the audience booed it doesn't mean it didn't serve a purpose.  It guarantees that the plagiarism story makes it on all the papers tommorrow!

    [ Parent ]
    Are you serious (none / 0) (#44)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:49:58 PM EST
    Where did you see this? I'd would be happy to be wrong on this.

    [ Parent ]
    CNN focus group (none / 0) (#56)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:55:55 PM EST
    they had a dial meter focus group...

    Also FOX News had a focus group with similar responses (that people liked the line) but take that one with a huge grain of salt.

    But even if you disregard focus groups, consider the fact that this line will now be quoted in all the newspapers guaranteeing that the "Obama copies speeches" narrative lives on and people who had not heard about it will now do so.  They will make the final judgement on whether they think it matters though.  But at least know it's out there big time.

    [ Parent ]

    I am so proud to be a Hillary supporter (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by athyrio on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:23:50 PM EST
    and believe she totally looked presidential tonight.....Go Hillary!!!

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by kiriacon on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:28:16 PM EST
    Hillary is so clearly much more qualified to be President. I don't know what the talking heads and other blogs were watching tonight, but it was not the same debate I saw. I think a lot of people want an Obama nominee because they can beat him.

    [ Parent ]
    Amen to that! (none / 0) (#145)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:46:26 PM EST
    Hillary is the best qualified candidate by far! I am a young voter and i feel insulted every time the media says Obama wins all the youth vote. There are thousands of young voters in MA who worked hard so she'd win here. I'm no way near Texas, but i know for a fact that RI students LOVE Hillary...Hillary's inspired me in a profound way this year, and whether she wins or looses, i will never forget it.

    [ Parent ]
    That is wonderful to hear -- and (none / 0) (#153)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:53:14 PM EST
    we won't forget what Massachusetts, with all its campuses, did.  You keep it up -- even with your primary over, you sound like someone who would be great at the Clinton phone-banking to other states.

    [ Parent ]
    aparently (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:28:35 PM EST
    there was an up-tick with the CNN focus groups that rate what the candidates say (you know what I mean).

    Regardless of what the pundits say (and frankly I haven't been watching them) everyone is talking about the xerox line and her closing statement--that can't be bad for her.

    And, BO's last words were "that's it" and then got up.  So I don't think he thought it went so great for him, or he just really wanted to get out of there.

    His campaign was quick to attack her closing statement saying it's similar to something Edwards said, though I've heard others say it was more like  BC.  Either way, that standing ovation was for her, and I hope that's how it plays in Texas.

    looked to me (none / 0) (#11)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:30:00 PM EST
    like he jerked her chair back.  Like, "let's go."

    [ Parent ]
    Here's what Edwards said in the October (none / 0) (#24)
    by ding7777 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:39:22 PM EST
    debate in Philly
    The truth is, when this election is over, I'm going to be fine. Senator Clinton's going to be fine. Senator Obama's going to be fine. The question is, will America be fine?

    and from a December 13, 2007 debate in Iowa

    All of us are going to be just fine no matter what happens in this election. But what's at stake is whether America is going to be fine
    .


    [ Parent ]
    when I heard her say it (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by nycvoter on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:48:01 PM EST
    I thought of Edwards, but it aint what obama did, no way

    [ Parent ]
    I did too. What she said was an introduction (none / 0) (#52)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:54:46 PM EST
    to how much better off she is than the veterans she visited in the hospital. I'm not sure there was a better way for her to get there without saying a fairly normal statement like that. It definitely doesn't compare to quoting someone else quoting MLK or JFK.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama's Use of Patrick's Line (none / 0) (#207)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:55:23 AM EST
    I've been bothered by the counter reaction from Obama's supporters, some in the media and his campaign in their attempts to throw the criticism back at the Clinton campaign.

    In the 1988 primary season Joe Biden used unattributed lines from a speech by British Labor party leader Neil Kinnock. The Dukakis campaign called him out and the media jumped on it.  Biden's campaign was ruined and he quickly faded. There was an irony in that Biden had credited Kinnock on all other occasions except that one. Apparently Obama used Patrick's lines on several occasions but never once gave attribution.

    So what does that say about what's happened to our standards over the past 20 years?  

    Is a particular candidate allowed carte blanche and does it have something to do with excusing any behavior in pursuit of demonizing his opponent.  Is this what we've become?

    [ Parent ]

    Hardship you can xerox? (none / 0) (#187)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:30:07 AM EST
    Huh, I guess Hillary only knows aobut Hardship you can Xerox.

    [ Parent ]
    It is good... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ding7777 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:28:49 PM EST
    CLINTON: Well, I think that if your candidacy is going to be about words, then they should be your own words. That's, I think, a very simple proposition.

    (APPLAUSE)

    And, you know, lifting whole passages from someone else's speeches is not change you can believe in, it's change you can Xerox. And I just don't think...

    But isn't the whole xerox thing (none / 0) (#47)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:51:51 PM EST
    undermined by her lifting lines from Edwards and her husband? What is she going to say? "I can plagiarize because my campaign isn't about words but about ideas uncluttered by words."

    Silly, but sometimes silly wins votes.

    [ Parent ]

    BinP - its sop 101 (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by ding7777 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:27:04 PM EST
    for a politico to declare that s/he will "be fine" no matter the outcome of an election.

    [ Parent ]
    But Clinton has not based (none / 0) (#173)
    by standingup on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:10:30 AM EST
    her campaign on being audacious, authentic and an agent of change.  What is one is to believe when they discover portions of his speeches are not authentic but have been used by other candidates who shared a common campaign manager with Obama?  Describing it as plagiarism is wrong and misses the point.  Is Obama who he says he is or is he an image that has been crafted by a consultant or manager?    

    [ Parent ]
    Curious about this -- (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:35:37 PM EST
    from the last thread, but it closed before there could be much in the way of a reply.  Are these actually the Obama stances?  (It's from an Obama backer.)

    SSA and Medicare are "not good" things, as "those are budget busting programs that are poorly managed. I do wish he would have pointed to Harold Pollack et. al.'s letter. Tying her to fines and garnishing wages was good for him. Got in a dig on transparency and her arrogance in '94. He took that exchange."

    I thought Clinton got Obama on his plan for fines and penalties.  But heavens, I also thought that Dems were for Social Security and Medicare.

    Also: ""He did not flip-flop on Cuba. He said an agenda for the talks would have to be set. He did not say, like she did, that they would have to meet any preconditions other than setting the agenda. . . ."

    I thought this was a switch for him on Cuba -- and of course, I though that as soon as he said he would not have preconditions, he started listing his preconditions (a preset agenda, etc.).

    "He continues to embarrass her on the "Day 1" question: his judgment is better than hers, and he's not afraid to point that out. He can combat McCain on Iraq with more authority; that's just a fact.  Now, at the end of the day, he improved vastly while she continues to tread water. Her best moments continue to be times when she gets emotional and her voice shakes."

    Well, I just didn't see any of that, but it's just opinion.  However, on the preceding points, these are stated as factual on Obama's stands -- and is he buying into the attacks on Social Security and Medicare, etc.?  If so, how can Kennedy and Kerry back him?  (And I will write my governor to ask how in the heck he can support him.)  

    What is going on -- is the frontrunner Dem really not for historic Dem programs and policies, those that are our hope for hanging onto working-class support?  And, for that matter, AA support?

    Obama and SS (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Prabhata on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:46:46 PM EST
    Obama keeps hitting Clinton on SS.  He is saying that SS needs to be fixed.  He buys the idea that SS is going belly up.   Hillary simply says that SS is fine, and all we need to do is to change the present limit, so that those who make above 35K (current SS limit) will pay SS on the money above the present limit.

    [ Parent ]
    he has also suggested (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:47:47 PM EST
    that the retirement age should be raised, which I don't quite think all those baby boomers whose kids convinced them to "switch" will like.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't tell Josh Marshall! (none / 0) (#100)
    by herb the verb on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:18:47 PM EST
    His head might explode!

    [ Parent ]
    He said he would have "preparations" (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:51:38 PM EST
    first, as opposed to preconditions. Huh.

    [ Parent ]
    Preparatins -- didn't she say that first? (nt) (none / 0) (#48)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:52:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Preparation H? (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:54:59 PM EST
    before negotiations  :-)  Think I'd prefer preconditions.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't know (none / 0) (#55)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:55:43 PM EST
    maybe I was checking talk left at that point.  But my take when I saw it is that he was drawing a distinction between "preparations" and "preconditions". Now I'm curious if I missed something.

    [ Parent ]
    You probably missed the sam thing (none / 0) (#66)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:00:11 PM EST
    I missed, the phony distinction between their positions on diplomacy.


    [ Parent ]
    So I pulled the transcript (none / 0) (#185)
    by Practically Lactating on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:26:36 AM EST
    courtesy of the link at talkleft, and he was the first person to use that word. Assuming my search function is working, this is the first mention of "preparations." Interesting distinction he made here.

    Obama: "I would meet without preconditions, although Senator Clinton is right that there has to be preparation."

    Transcript

    [ Parent ]

    The Point at which I knew Obama (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:54:57 PM EST
    was all talk and no substance was very early on and it's germaine to his answers about Diplomacy.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/27/115434/268/910/363194

    The point is not so much what Obama's stance is, it can be willingness, commitment, whatever, the point is how he's confused about where Reagan and Kennedy stood on the issue.

    Obama says "I want to get back to Kennedy and Reagan" but gives different answers than they did.

    Clinton gives the same answers Kennedy and Reagan did.

    And that has been the entire story of the campaign for me.

    Clinton is what Obama talks about.

    [ Parent ]

    GREAT line--and so true (4.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:02:12 PM EST
    Clinton is what Obama talks about.


    [ Parent ]
    "all talk and no substance" ?!?! (none / 0) (#69)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:01:33 PM EST
    The debate was full of talk and substance from both candidates!

    Obama says "I want to get back to Kennedy and Reagan" but gives different answers than they did.

    Clinton gives the same answers Kennedy and Reagan did.

    Huh?  Giving the same answers that Reagan did is not a plus!

    [ Parent ]

    Kennedy and Reagan (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:02:44 PM EST
    Read the link.

    Obama's the one who wants to be most like Reagan anyway.


    [ Parent ]

    um... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:50:32 PM EST
    It is a plus, if you claim to be like them...You can't claim to be like them, and then not be like them. Thats lying. Or at least a little hypocracy...I mean this w/ all due respect. Obama is a good guy, but he's not ready.

    [ Parent ]
    um 2... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:53:06 PM EST
    I don't know why he'd want to be like Reagan though... Kennedy, i understand...But not Reagan...

    [ Parent ]
    Because he was (none / 0) (#203)
    by oldpro on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:45:37 AM EST
    'the great communicator' with a sunny disposition telling the american people that there was nothing wrong with America or Americans and that it was 'morning again in America!'

    Now, do you remember?

    [ Parent ]

    Because he was (none / 0) (#205)
    by oldpro on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:47:54 AM EST
    'the great communicator' with a sunny disposition, telling Americans there was nothing wrong with American and nothing wrong with Americans...that it was 'morning in American again!'

    Now, do you remember?

    [ Parent ]

    Social Security (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:17:57 AM EST
    Jeffrey Liebman, an Obama economics advisor favors privatization of Social Security.  

    Another of his economics advisors, david Cutler, wants to keep health care industry profits high as an incentive.  

    Edwards and Clinton offer government insurance to compete with private companies.  Obama has no government insurance offering in his health care proposals.

    Obama's woeful solution to the mortgage crisis (a $500 tax credit)came from economics advisor Austen Goolsbee.

    Obama is the most conservative Democrat I've seen get this far in the primaries.

    I was an Edwards supporter and I believe policy tells a lot about the candidate.  For me it was an easy switch to Clinton.

    What bothers me is that if Obama is nominated and elected, what happens to potential progressive legislation and will we see a continuing erosion of the middle class?

    Apparently this is what he means by reaching across the aisle, about reconciliation.  So there is a strong possiblity that the progressive change that the nation wants just won't happen.  

    But the biggest worry of all is, what's to become of our political system if people never get the changes they need?

    [ Parent ]

    Obama has spoken dismissively of (none / 0) (#26)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:41:37 PM EST
    "big government' programs.

    [ Parent ]
    Isn't that RW talk for Dem programs? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:45:12 PM EST
    What are Kennedy, Kerry, Durbin, et al., doing to us?

    [ Parent ]
    Well of course. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:48:51 PM EST
    I had a comment removed yesterday wherein I likened Obama to liberal Republicans of the past, but I think it's a fair comparison.
    He does not share my values, or yours.
    Philosophically, he favors private initiative and enterprise; whereas I favor what WORKS.


    [ Parent ]
    Well, they are a little delusional after all. (none / 0) (#29)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    No, I don't think Obama feels that way at all. His supporters just use that argument because it is the anti-Clinton point of view. I don't think they are speaking for him.

    One thing's for sure, he is going to disappoint either his conservative/Independent voters or his liberal voters. He can't please them both.

    [ Parent ]

    except for the guy posting here (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:58:07 PM EST
    ... I have never heard an Obama supporter speak dismissively of SSA.  Let's not tar all the supporters because of one guy's comments please.

    [ Parent ]
    I suppose I'm as hard (none / 0) (#77)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:06:39 PM EST
    anti-Obama as anyone and even I don't think he wouldn't protect SS.  If I had to guess, that poster is not for any Democrat in the race  :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Privatization would be an easy sell, for (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by MarkL on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:08:06 PM EST
    a Democrat. I don't trust Obama on SS---period.

    [ Parent ]
    Well I was wrong (none / 0) (#102)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:20:55 PM EST
    turns out he does support Obama and is spouting more of that junk downthread.  Real winner that one :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Here's the distinction (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by oldpro on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:05:15 AM EST
    and it's the same one Paul Krugman made when he took Obama to task for his comments on Social Security:

    There is a difference between a problem and a crisis.  The crisis meme was what the Republicans pushed so they could convince the public that the only way to save SS in the future was to privatize it now.  Obama's words echoed those R talking points and made it sound like an imminent threat.  It's not.

    Yes, there is a solvency problem long term and it must be addressed...as it has been in the past...adjustments/choices must be made.

    Interestingly, SS has the lowest overhead of all government programs at around 3% and gets awards for being the best managed.

    Also, let's keep in mind that SS was originally a 'widows and orphans' safety net which expanded and expanded and expanded to include more and more marginal folks who now collect social security as dependents of one kind or another.  Those expansions alone have accelerated the difference between income and payout, bringing the problem closer than it otherwise would have...that, and the fact that people are LIVING so much longer than anticipated when SS was designed...and redesigned.

    That's how I see it, anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    Hi DC wonk, I tried to reply to you (none / 0) (#83)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:09:44 PM EST
    in the last thread but it closed on me before I could post it. I am so glad you agree with what I said about the party being more important than the Presidency and it being a healing moment. You are a great Obama supporter and I really respect your honesty.

    I actually have had that SS/Med argument with some young Obama supporters on DKos. I know they are just uninformed and don't represent what Obama stands for and I agree they are in a minority. I do think he was wrong to even hint at the social security crisis stuff.

    My delusional remark was just being snarky because he said tonight that his supporters aren't delusional. Some of them really are but so are some of Hillary's.

    [ Parent ]

    Well thank you! (5.00 / 3) (#111)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:25:05 PM EST
    I appreciate your comments (it's the first nice thing anyone has said to me in the past couple of weeks here).

    Frankly, I think a lot of supporters -- on both sides -- can learn from both Obama and Clinton tonight.  Like you, I also thought it was a healing moment for both of them and I'm very proud to support a party that winnows its candidates down to these two, who both are clearly trying their best to win in the dirty world of politics and yet are trying their best to both take the high road.  It'd be so easy for either of them to fight dirty, but there's been fairly little of it in this campaign (and the little that's been looks even smaller if you compare it to any other prez campaign).  I think it's high testament to both of them.

    You can look at all my posts, I have never ever said a bad word about Clinton, I think she's awesome, and I thought she was awesome again tonight.  (Despite what others here think, not only do I think the Xerox comment not go over well, I thought that she regretted saying it herself -- it was the only time she didn't take the high road.  But a minor blip, as far as I'm concerned, in 90 minutes of debate).

    (I have criticized Hillary's advisors, I think some of them have occasionally wanted to take the low road -- but, and perhaps I am naive, I think Hillary's own instincts resist that sort of thing).

    As I've said from the beginning, I think both candidates are exceptional (and I take offense when anyone insults either of them unfairly -- and I have complained to other blog-masters about how they've portrayed Clinton), and that reasonable people can disagree as to how to weigh their strengths and weaknesses.

    I wish the other supporters here could get along as well as you and I seem to do!

    [ Parent ]

    I want to reiterate (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:28:33 PM EST
    You are an asset to the candidate you are supporting.  I understand some of your frustration, and I think it is warranted.  You provide a needed balance on this site, and I appreciate that.

    [ Parent ]
    Whoa! Two in one night! (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by A DC Wonk on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:51:11 PM EST
    Thank you.  Actually, I am blown away by how nice that comment is.  (And just think, a few hours ago I was just this close to leaving this site)

    I'm a fairly un-reconstructed hippie who believes in love and peace and all that apparently old-fashioned stuff.  I'm not naive, but, at the least, I think that, we need to play fairly.  And so on this site I've been defending Obama (and defending Clinton too), and on other sites I've been defending Clinton.  (I wrote to Josh Marshall and complained about his claim that Clinton wanted that MSNBC guy fired.  I explained what I thought was the whole context and a reasonable inference.  He wrote back, was pretty nice about it, but basically said he disagreed on the interpretation.  I still think he's very wrong on that issue, but he kept my respect with his answer to me)

    My son recently had to do a report on MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech.  And so we found it on YouTube and watched it.  In that speech MLK talks about  how that even though blacks are getting physically and mentally brutalized, they shouldn't  stoop to that level and lose the moral authority of their argument.

    I see an analogy to what's going on here.  Both Obama and Clinton are fighting the good fight, and, for the most part, they are taking the high road (despite what must be enormous pressures to the contrary).  If we want the other to not engage in dirty politics, then we have to be above it, too.

    And so I wish the supporters would do the same.  I know, I know, it's hard when we're so passionate about it.  But, hey, we can look at it as practice -- being masters of our own passions is a good things.

    Criticism is fine if it's fair and relevant, imho.  Want to criticize Obama for missing a vote, that's fine.  Want to say he's got no substance, and that's just plain untrue and unfair.  

    So, yeah, when I see stuff unbalanced and unfair, I have the urge to try to step in and balance it.

    It's very comforting to know that a few people here have noticed that I have tried my best to be fair.  I was getting the feeling that I was completely useless here.

    Every little bit helps.  Think globally and act locally, ya know!  Let's all raise the level of our discourse.

    And, again, thank you very very much for your comments.  They are very much appreciated.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't even think about leaving. You're one (none / 0) (#157)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:59:48 PM EST
    of those fair minded people who make me realize the whole world's not gone crazy!

    [ Parent ]
    I second what PL said about you. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:46:57 PM EST
    I wish all of us could feel the way you do. I'm frustrated that so many people can't see the good that came from that moment rather than to turn it into something to be critical about.

    I only have two problems with Obama: his unity message, because we have backed up too far in the past seven years to compromise with anybody right now, and I really don't think he is as committed to healthcare as HC is. That is very important to me.

    I think the reason so many HC supporters are angry right now is because of the media. It absolutely blows my mind. That moment tonight made me feel real warmth toward him because she seemed to feel genuine about it. I hate to see people mock it for that reason. When/if she gives up her campaign and endorses him, will they make fun of her even then? She is going to ask her voters to support him and they will probably blow her off and say who needs them. They being supporters like the ones at other blogs, not here. We have got to come together.

    Thank you for listening to me :)

    [ Parent ]

    I understand your frustration (none / 0) (#177)
    by A DC Wonk on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:14:54 AM EST
    I've said many times here that Hillary's treatment by the media has been consistently awful.  A disgrace.  And, yeah, that's incredibly frustrating.  Plain and simple: it's just not fair.

    I hear what you're saying about Obama's unity message, and, if I may elaborate a different take on it (not that I think you'll agree, but perhaps you'll better understand where some of his supporters are coming from):

    I think that people are overstating what his "unity" message means.  He doesn't mean, at all, to compromise with people that are just unalterably opposed to his ideals (e.g., rabid anti-abortionists).  Clearly, no compromise can be made with them.  Period.  Furthermore, of course he's not naive enough to think that the RW Noise Machine is not going to do their best to rake him over the coals.

    But I think (and I hope) that his message will appeal to some decent percentage of people that this hyperpartisanship has got to stop.  Look, we all know that the Dems will not control 60 votes in the Senate, and that, if the hyperpartisanship doesn't stop then a minority of 45-or-whatever GOP Senators can stop everything that any Dems want to do: health care and everything else.

    So how do we get past that?  In part, we get past it by getting our own citizens who vote to demand something better.  In part, we keep talking about getting people to focus on the bigger picture (health care for Americans) rather than scoring political points.

    Will it magically make everything good?  Of course not.  But changing our attitudes about this stuff requires a leader who will challenge us to change our attitudes.  When JFK said "ask not ...", he was challenging American citizens, and those citizens responded.  Some of the "best and brightest" saw public service as a high ideal -- and it brought us everything from Peace Corps volunteers (spreading good, and goodwill about America, across the world), to the Great Society (which, despite some overreach, did reduce poverty in America quite significantly).  But it took a leader to inspire us to do that.  With words.

    Will Obama be able to inspire at least some folks to change their ways?  I don't know, but, to many, it's worth a shot.  It's worth a shot because it's an empowering message.  It's a positive message.  And, Obama's right that the last American leader to have a powerful positive message was Reagan.  The left (and I am a proud member of the left) complains too much, while the right is proud about this and proud about that, and etc.

    Will it work?  I don't know.  But to many, it's worth a shot.  To paraphrase that slogan: "perhaps we can" <g>  The hyperpartisanship (and, yes, I'll place almost all the blame on the GOP for it) has got to stop.  It's killing us.  Obama's right in that all the good candidates have 10-point plans.  The question is: will the plans die in Washington?

    Like I said: I'm not trying to convince you.  And I'm not even asking you to agree with me.  But I guess I do kinda hope you can at least say, "OK, I can hear what you're saying."  

    [ Parent ]

    Great analysis DC Wonk. That's some of (none / 0) (#198)
    by Teresa on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:42:52 AM EST
    the stuff I tell myself. Kind of giving the power to us to force our Republican rep's to go along because we are demanding that they do. I'm just scared that there aren't too many persuadable Republicans in Congress right now. If he wins big enough, it could work!

    Some great things happened in the 60's along with the sadness, didn't they? I don't remember any of it but I do know that some great Democratic programs came to be then.

    I do hear what you are saying and you say it much more effectively than anyone else does.

    [ Parent ]

    I just quoted you -- and anyone can go see (none / 0) (#99)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:18:40 PM EST
    that.  I'm glad to know these are not Obama's stands on Social Security and Medicare.  

    But I'm puzzled as to how they can be your stands -- unless you're not a Dem?  Maybe an Independent who hasn't read the Dem platform and principles and thinks they're not Obama's platform and principles?

    Start with those policies.  They're crucial, they define the party, they define who is a Dem.  

    [ Parent ]

    Or maybe those are Obama's stands . . . (none / 0) (#101)
    by Cream City on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:19:59 PM EST
    from Prabhata's and Kathy's comments below.  If you can clarify that they are your stands and not his, fine.  Or I'm going to have to head to his website again, but it takes so long to get through it. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    "People like me" get Dems labeled (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:07:30 AM EST
    as Socialists?  Actually, where I come from, that's the party that led my area to our best decades, and for almost five decades that didn't end so long ago.

    But you apparently don't understand American Socialism and are making more clear with every missive that you may not understand what the Dem Party stands for, either.  So I repeat:  Have you ever read the Dem party platform and statement of principles?  Are you sure you're a Dem?  

    [ Parent ]

    Universal health care is (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by Cream City on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:44:17 AM EST
    "socialized medicine" to you.  That puts you in interesting company -- several of your comments are so close to those on The Hillary Project site. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    OM - You are a chatterer and now limited (none / 0) (#209)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 01:01:22 AM EST
    to 4 comments a day. I've overlooked your shilling for Obama for weeks but warned you about it. Now you are insulting. Some of your comments have been deleted. If you don't abide by the limit, you will be banned and every comment you have made on this site will be deleted.

    [ Parent ]
    You are in the wrong party (none / 0) (#128)
    by RalphB on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:35:55 PM EST
    or have read one too many press releases from the American Enterprise Institute.


    [ Parent ]
    Don't waste your time (none / 0) (#132)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:36:40 PM EST
    if you know what I mean.  I usually lose a few brain cells by engaging, which would be better spent on a nice brew.

    [ Parent ]
    honestly, you are over the top. (none / 0) (#208)
    by hellothere on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:58:06 AM EST
    i cannot believe how rude and insulting you are. please refrain from calling fellow posters names. i suggest you go and study hillary's proposals and then come back. clearly you haven't done that. guess what? there is a boomer generation and we aren't going to die to please youl.

    [ Parent ]
    It's the number one concern in Texas and (none / 0) (#104)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:21:38 PM EST
    in the top two of every exit poll.

    Do you think the American people like the idea of adding another entitlement program the size of UHC to their already overburdened tax bill?

    In that Iran vote, Obama is a hypocrite. If he really thought that gave George Bush permission to go to war with Iran, why did he go on his campaign trip the morning after notification of all Senators that the vote would be held the next day. Why didn't he mention it in the debate that very night? Biden and Dodd did. He didn't because he knew he made a bad decision and he only decided he would captialize on her vote when he realized the media would let him.

    [ Parent ]

    who wrote that poll? (none / 0) (#159)
    by notableabsence on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:00:30 AM EST
    Yeesh.  Talk about a push poll..."entitlement program" and "already OVERBURDENED tax bill?"

    [ Parent ]
    Right on Day ! gimmie a break (none / 0) (#171)
    by Dcrpfs9668 on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:09:52 AM EST
    He says he will be right on day 1...how about day 2?...Or day 3? Will he be right, every day, for the rest of his life? Is he just smarter than us? He hasn't always been right in the past! Cocaine doesn't sound right to me...Unless you went to the George Bush school of Politics... You can't always be right, but you can be ready. She is.

    [ Parent ]
    you're on the wrong site (none / 0) (#199)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 12:42:54 AM EST
    if you want to criticize him for acknowledging using cocaine. Please don't do it again.

    [ Parent ]
    and we know HRC (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by NJDem on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:58:11 PM EST
    most of us have "known" her for 16 years.  

    So his closing statement, which was really all about him, doesn't really resonate.  

    But when she said that we all know that she's been through crisis, we all were right there with her.  And she got a huge applause, which to me was s sign of compassion and support.    

    crap (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:12:46 PM EST
    now I gotta go to bed with 'ice-ice-baby' in my head.  Couldn't they do Milli Vanilli?  At least I don't get my weird David Bowie with a knife juggling monkey dreams.

    Anyway--

    The Obama/Patrick cases are clear-cut, apples for apples, lifting of whole phrases and lines.  Ya know, in college, we learned that you can use someone's intent so long as you restructure the comments to make them your own.  I remember zillions of 3x5 cards I made with exact quotes I'd copied from books that I kept by my side at all times to make CERTAIN I did not somehow plagiarize someone else's words.

    Thus, "The apple trees are lovely when the breeze rustles through the leaves" became: "The wind shook the apple tree."

    The above is not plagiarism, and how what Clinton said at the end tonight is plagiarism is just as thin an argument.  Actually, it reminds me of our McCain discussion here on TL today, where I said then (as I believe now) that the way the story was reported is serving to muddy the real issue of the letters written on the woman's behalf.

    The "plagiarism" charge here is meant to muddy the fact that Clinton, as usual, knocked it out of the park.

    I know what would (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Practically Lactating on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:22:46 PM EST
    have gotten me written up for academic dishonesty / expelled and what wouldn't have. And that's how I approach this issue.

    It floors me that supposedly educated people, professional journalists, cannot understand the distinction.

    [ Parent ]

    Check out Digby's 2 posts (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:16:13 PM EST
    today on McCain matter.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm really not into this Obama and Clinton camp... (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by tsteels2 on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:17:47 PM EST
    ...stuff simply because I think both Senator Obama and Senator Clinton looked very presidential.  I was impressed with both of them and refuse to bash either one.

    As far as some of the comments about Senator Obama looking mean, etc...  He looks like that a lot.  He has a serious demeanor.  Reminds me of a college professor I had.  Nothing wrong with a serious demeanor.

    And every man in my family pulls chairs out for women to sit (myself included) as a sign of respect.  It's the mark of a gentleman.  And Senator Clinton doesn't object and she DOES NOT look weak in accepting the gesture.

    They just look more presidential than John McCain.


    universal health care (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by joei on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 11:29:18 PM EST

    why is this not a big issue?

    it did not hit me until hillary made a reference to social security.

    i think there is big difference between hillary and obama, it is the whole philosophy and approach.

    Debates are funny (none / 0) (#4)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:24:49 PM EST
    Peoples impressions of debates always amuses me.  Whether it's a primary or GE debate, a candidate's supporter always sincerely feels their person won.

    It's totally subjective (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by vj on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:44:54 PM EST
    81% of people at dailykos think Obama won.

    I thought Hillary won, but not by a whole lot.  Not enough to change the dynamics of the race.

    [ Parent ]

    The CNN focus group thought Clinton did (none / 0) (#36)
    by diplomatic on Thu Feb 21, 2008 at 10:47:14 PM EST
    The last impression counts for a lot, I think.  All people are talking about is what Hillary said tonight -- can hardly remember anything Obama said.

    [ Parent