Is the Public Ahead of the Netroots on Iraq?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 10:48:10 AM EST
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Matt Stoller asks that question. The answer is obviously yes. I am a Centrist. And yet on Iraq, the voices joining me on the call to end the Iraq Debacle through the only viable way to do it, defunding, have been relatively few to my knowledge.

In this post, I warned of the Netroots forgetting the lessons learned from the intraparty battles on Iraq and other issues from 2003 to 2006:

Are we forgetting these lessons? I fear we are. The Netroots must not forget this fight, how we won it and how we must continue to win it in our Democratic Party.

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Maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by jdmckay on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:46:37 PM EST

I don't post much anywhere on this subject, mainly 'cause my view doesn't fit too well in current liberal community. Nor in winger land.

I've followed closely, devout independent progressive and spent many hours working for dem candidates since 2k debacle.

I've followed/read/thoughfully considered Juan Cole's migration on this subject: from disaster that would follow pulling out his current position supporting it. I understand the sentiment.

I go with more developed plan, based on Howard Dean's position, eg: (from memory): "We owe it to Iraqi people to fix the mess we've made there."

To me, this means...

boot current WH, try 'em for war crimes, get as much info on internal deliberations leading to war as can be had. Get every piece of paper Cheney ever made a note on (sic: Libby trial). Put oil executives under oath: "Was invading Iraq the essence of Cheney's energy policy?"
Tell the truth about all of it... the whole stinking mess. There's no other way. Say it publicly, say it loud. Expose CPA contract cronyism, and planned exclusion of Iraqis. Same w/torture & imprisonment: tell the truth about it. Everything, the whole magnificent ooze of black ops consciousness... fess up. It's the only way to get well.
Convene best & brightest from around the world, nation/infrastructure/institution building. Come up w/a real plan that's in Iraq interests, not a neocon "free market" abomination trojan horse with red stripes. And do it fast.
Take the best laid of these plans, get 'em ready fast, and start executing with open, unimpeachab/le integrity. CHEATERS GET THEIR BALLS CUT OFF!!!! Get Iraqis naturally involved. Stick to principles, rather than cheap soundbites of GWB.
Send AEI/AIPAC back to Israel, save those in W's war crimes trial. End the "US as Isreali Hard Liner Proxy" movement. Put the screws on Israel, make 'em start behaving like other civilized nations and settle Palestinian issue... give'me their land!!!

We have a long history of turning ME cultures upside down in pursuit of oil... and lieing about it. The world's getting smaller... an accelerating condition. It's time to start doing things right.

None of dem's plans, w/exception of Murtha, is IMO heartfelt. None of 'em take into consideration US' role as cause in the mess, long term implications if things continue with current US atrocities uncorrected (to the extent they can be w/honest effort), nor express sentiment such as Dean's.

I haven't heard a single public, capital hill debate taking apart current Iraq fundamentals in the context of what it means for the future and how antipathy (to put it mildly) towards US will drive that. To listen to these guys, bottom line is "Iraqis standing up." For crissakes... most of our lawmakers don't know difference between a Sunni and Shia.

IMO, we aren't even to the starting line yet.

: Can we fix it? (none / 0) (#25)
by MiddleOfTheRoad on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 08:34:58 AM EST

I like what you said because it seems heartfelt and not from any talking points.
Personally I doubt if there is any smoking gun paper trail about the Iraq war, other than what has already been demonstrated that the Bush administration hyped the evidence that supported going to war and ignored evidence which do not support going to war. I doubt that invading Iraq was part of the Energy plan.
Whether we can come up with a real plan is the trillion dollar question, and I am somewhat skeptical that we can do it by getting together the best and the brightest. We have opened a pandora's box in a region which is foreign to us and which we do not well understand.

[ Parent ]

No, they're not. (none / 0) (#1)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 12:04:02 PM EST

And if you are a centrist there is no middle and right.

You are, however, less radical than many.

Jim (none / 0) (#2)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 12:20:22 PM EST

Wake up, you are on the Extreme Right now.

The country has returned to sanity.

Have you read apoll lately? Checked an election result?

[ Parent ]

All of your politics are anti-war. (none / 0) (#7)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:43:55 PM EST

That devasted the Demos in the past, and will do it again.

Your demands to cut and run may force us out. Hard to say at this point.

But remember. Any bad thing, terrorist attack, etc., that happens will be hung around the Demos neck. And rightly so.

Remember BT, I voted Democratoic all my life until the anti-war radicals lost us the war in Vietnam. I even tried to kiss and make up and voted for Jimmy C, but he cured me. I almost voted for Clinton, but being familar enough with Sourthern politics I knew what he and Hillary really were and voted for the "Little Admiral" in protest.

Remember. The Repubs went from disgraced in '76 to a landslide in 1980.

Also remember that success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get.

I am also curious as to why we see nothing out of the Demos about National Health Care, Gay Marriage, etc... Could it be that our heros have deserted us? After all, the Demos did fight against Medicare RX Insurance.

[ Parent ]

hmmm... (none / 0) (#10)
by jdmckay on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:19:54 PM EST

All of your politics are anti-war.

Ridiculous. Balkan action was widely supported, and correctly AFAIC.

You make no distinction in "pro-war" position. No bad ones, you think? War is good?

What about US coup in '52 Iran... good? You aware of the causes and consequences of that one?

But remember. Any bad thing, terrorist attack, etc., that happens will be hung around the Demos neck.

Yah, probably. :(

MSM currently regurgitating WH accusations against Iran on front page while as each is proven false, this news makes pg. 18... if it gets printed at all. More "clear and convincing" evidence.

Deja vu.

And rightly so.

Don't think so.

I almost voted for Clinton, but being familar enough with Sourthern politics I knew what he and Hillary really were and voted for the "Little Admiral" in protest.

Ahhh yes... "southern politics", nice Red States.

So why are u a Bush supporter again?

[ Parent ]

The Iran allegations were proven false? (none / 0) (#12)
by roy on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:48:24 PM EST

That's news to me. Got a link?

[ Parent ]

Here ya go (none / 0) (#13)
by squeaky on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 06:55:49 PM EST


[ Parent ]

Here's a (none / 0) (#14)
by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:05:58 PM EST

good start, Roy.

[ Parent ]

Aside from... (none / 0) (#20)
by jdmckay on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 11:15:10 PM EST

squeaky & Edgar's links, there was Karbala incident a short time ago. Pentagon made up a story, WH & Pentagon accused Iran: both turned out to be lies. Then there's the exageration (lies?) taken w/Iran's nuke program, plus open disputes with IAEA. Of course, the IAEA claims that Bushco isn't quite telling the truth re: Iran are not new:

WP
Thursday, September 14, 2006
(...)
Officials of the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency said in a letter that the (House committee report on Iran's capabilities) report contained some "erroneous, misleading and unsubstantiated statements."

Hmmm...

And let's not forget Iran reincarnation of that fine neocon secret intelligence organization: Office of Secret Plans. Latest version: "Iran directorate" , staffed w/essentially the same crowd as before.

[ Parent ]

More here, Roy (none / 0) (#22)
by Edger on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 04:41:00 AM EST

Catapulting the propaganda... again

[ Parent ]

: And here. (none / 0) (#23)
by Edger on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 04:46:47 AM EST

Six Lies About Iran, and here: A pool of gasoline waiting for a match

[ Parent ]

anti-THIS WAR Jim (none / 0) (#16)
by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:38:56 PM EST

Like Obama.

I am no pacificist. I supported Desert Storm, Panama and Afghanistan.

I believe Islamic extremism is the major threat the US faces. I think the Iraq Debacle has harmed us greatly in that fight.

[ Parent ]

You supported Panama??? (none / 0) (#19)
by Dadler on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 11:05:39 PM EST

Egad, I had no idea. Try to explain that one.

Go back and look at the photos of the poor neighborhood where Noriega and his cronies hung their hats. And we didn't count civilian casualties back then either. I remember writing a scathing letter to Les Aspin, only to get a copy of the b.s. investigation into the matter. And it was b.s. A complete washjob.

The notion the United States had to murder scores of innocent Panamanians to "defeat" that silly piece of cartoon material is an insult to the intelligence and the moral core.

[ Parent ]

: Panama Deception (none / 0) (#21)
by Dadler on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 11:42:51 PM EST

Democracy Now link to documentary excerpts

[ Parent ]

Curious (none / 0) (#17)
by scarshapedstar on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 09:57:49 PM EST

Remember BT, I voted Democratoic all my life until the anti-war radicals lost us the war in Vietnam.

How many elections were you able to vote in before 1976? I mean, from the sound of things you've voted Republican for 30 years now, quite an impressive record for a social liberal. What's even more impressive is that to have even a 50% Democratic voting record, you would have to be 78 years old.

[ Parent ]

Trite and true (none / 0) (#18)
by Dadler on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 10:56:49 PM EST

Tell me you didn't just write "Also remember that success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get".

Neither success nor happiness will even piss on our legs in Iraq. Raw, rank, indefensible stupidity and hubris will do that to an occupying military empire.

[ Parent ]

Radical? (none / 0) (#4)
by MiddleOfTheRoad on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 12:55:17 PM EST

I think it is the neocon warmongers who are the radicals.

A solid majority of the people are against the Iraq war. Furthermore, the people see Afghanistan and Iraq as very different wars, despite the repeated attempts of the Bush Administration to spin otherwise.

On Iraq the public has been ahead. The next election should hopefully settle this issue.

[ Parent ]

Read my comment to BTD. As Paton said: (none / 0) (#8)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:46:32 PM EST

Read my comment to BTD. As Paton said:

Americans hate losers.

(Okay, I don't know if he said it or not, but it was a great line in the movie.)

BTW - I have long claimed that the far right and the anti-war left are on different sides of the same coin.

[ Parent ]

: It is a no win situation (none / 0) (#24)
by MiddleOfTheRoad on Wed Feb 28, 2007 at 08:10:56 AM EST

Nobody has defined what victory really means. And no, landing on an aircraft carrier and declaring victory does not mean achieving victory. We are in a no-win situation in Iraq.
It is not just the left that is against the Iraq war. Over 60% of the US population is against the Iraq war, over 60% thinks that it was a mistake to go in there, and over 60% thinks that we should set a timetable to leave.
You'd get no arguments from me if you lump the far left and the far right. But to lump the left with the far right is dishonest.

[ Parent ]

Looneytunes (none / 0) (#6)
by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 01:13:06 PM EST

Extreme right? No. Over the edge.

[ Parent ]

Edger - Do you know what phase (none / 0) (#9)
by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 05:48:00 PM EST

the moon is in tonight????

[ Parent ]

: Well finally a question from ppj (none / 0) (#15)
by Edger on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 07:13:00 PM EST

that deserves a response.
Whatever phase the moon is in tonight Jim, there is enough light for even you to read the writing on the wall by.
Just take a look around this thread, and watch your step, bud. while you were busy standing still with your blinders on, the entire universe swung to the left, and left you with no place to sta.........................
I's day it's been nice, but... well... you know how it is.

[ Parent ]

With (none / 0) (#3)
by jondee on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 12:38:27 PM EST

Jim its always '68 and he's wishing he were in Chicago with a nightstick in his hands. Of course, that would've probobly required showing up for a physical..

: HaHa... (none / 0) (#5)
by desertswine on Tue Feb 27, 2007 at 12:59:52 PM EST

1968? or 1868?

[ Parent ]