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Krugman: War in Iran Follows Iraq

Krugman gets it:

So the administration has always had it in for the Iranian regime. Now, let’s do an O. J. Simpson: if you were determined to start a war with Iran, how would you do it?

First, you’d set up a special intelligence unit to cook up rationales for war. . . . Next, you’d go for a repeat of the highly successful strategy by which scare stories about the Iraqi threat were disseminated to the public.

This time, however, the assertions wouldn’t be about W.M.D.; they’d be that Iranian actions are endangering U.S. forces in Iraq. Why? Because there’s no way Congress will approve another war resolution. But if you can claim that Iran is doing evil in Iraq, you can assert that you don’t need authorization to attack — that Congress has already empowered the administration to do whatever is necessary to stabilize Iraq. And by the time the lawyers are finished arguing — well, the war would be in full swing.

Yes, you have read similar arguments here on a number of occasions.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Iran: the ally of our allies (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Dadler on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:00:19 AM EST
    Getting warmer..... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:21:59 PM EST

    One expert on Iraq asked me  in perplexity: "Even if Bush does launch a war against Iran,  where does he think it will get him? He will still be stuck in  Iraq and the Iranians are not going to surrender. He will just  have widened the war."

    The answer to this question  is probably that the anti-Iranian tilt of the Bush administration has more to do with American than Iraqi politics. A fresh demon is being presented to the US voter. Iran is portrayed as the  hidden hand behind US failure in both Iraq and in Lebanon. The  US media, gullible over WMD, is showing itself equally gullible over this exaggerated Iranian threat.

    The Bush administration has  always shown itself more interested in holding power in Washington  than in Baghdad. Whatever its failures on the battlefield, the  Republicans were able to retain the presidency and both Houses  of Congress in 2004. Confrontation with Iran, diverting attention  from the fiasco in Iraq, may be their best chance of holding the White House in 2008.

    Patrick Cockburn


    Casus belli (4.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:04:02 PM EST
    Supplying weapons is not a casus belli. If it were, the whole world would have gone up in flames long ago.

    No proof (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:19:38 PM EST
    that iran is providing weapons
    Top American General Disputes US Military Claim on Iran

    The top American military officer, General Peter Pace, declined Monday to endorse the conclusions of U.S. military officers in Baghdad, who told reporters on Sunday that the Iranian government is providing high-powered roadside bombs to insurgents in Iraq.



    Parent
    No, that's not what he said. (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:52:28 PM EST
    General Pace said he was not aware of the Baghdad briefing, and that he could not, from his own knowledge, repeat the assertion made there that the elite Quds brigade of Iran's Republican Guard force is providing bomb-making kits to Iraqi Shiite insurgents.

    "We know that the explosively formed projectiles are manufactured in Iran. What I would not say is that the Iranian government, per se [specifically], knows about this," he said. "It is clear that Iranians are involved, and it's clear that materials from Iran are involved, but I would not say by what I know that the Iranian government clearly knows or is complicit."

    What he said was, "I haven't seen it."

    That's a far cry from "No proof."

    But a nice try at parsing.


    Parent

    Still no proof (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:31:08 PM EST
    "I would not say by what I know that the Iranian government clearly knows or is complicit."


    Parent
    What he said was: (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:44:07 PM EST
    by what I know

    Still trying to make something out of nothing are you??

    What I know is a "qualifier."

    Give up sailor.

    Parent

    parsing in his pants (none / 0) (#76)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:13:09 PM EST
    'proof' and 'qualifier' are mutually exclusive.

    Parent
    Al (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    It is if we say it is.

    Parent
    That's pretty arrogant. And foolish. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:46:30 PM EST
    The US supplies weapons to Israel. So a country at war with Israel would be justified in attacking the US? For example, in its attack on Lebanon last summer, Israel used cluster bombs supplied by the US, among other things. Would this justify attacks against the US in your view?

    Parent
    nope (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:00:17 PM EST
    because ppj is a 'my country right or wrong' kinda guy and he thinks bush is the country.

    Heck, bush could have people tortured, murdered, kidnapped, sent to secret prisons and it would be A-OK with ppj.

    Parent

    Didn't someone here quote OBL (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:37:08 PM EST
    The US supplies weapons to Israel. So a country at war with Israel would be justified in attacking the US?
    as using US bombs and/or warships in the '82 Lebanon War as his casus belli?

    Parent
    Al writes (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:46:53 PM EST
    Would this justify attacks against the US in your view?

    Only if I had a death wish.

    Remember... you don't pull on Superman's cape... you don't spit into the wind... etc and etc....

    Parent

    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:12:43 PM EST
    Please look up the word "justify" in the dictionary, and try again.

    Superman's cape? What makes you think a campaign against Iran would be any more successful than the campaign against Iraq?


    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:34:33 PM EST
    What makes you think it wouldn't??

    Parent
    Uh, Because (none / 0) (#50)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:09:11 AM EST
    It's the same people deciding to do it, and the same people running it?

    Parent
    Hello Glanton (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 06:57:00 AM EST
    And the same people running around opposing it?

    Hey! Where'd you come from? ;-)

    Of course it would be fought with different tactics by different leaders..

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#60)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 09:08:13 AM EST
    Most of the people who were right in 2002-2003 that the WMD talk was just pretext, they're right again that the Rethugs are looking for pretext only.

    And no, not different people deciding whether to go to war, not different people running it.  Same CIC in both cases.  What a joke this Administration is.  

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:15:30 AM EST
    So you think Bush will opt for a aerial attack followed by a land invasion?

    No. Nada. Not. Never.

    Parent

    It doesn't matter (none / 0) (#72)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:45:37 PM EST
    what Bush "opts" for. He and the Republicans have proven themselves dangerously reckless, and foolish, and duplicitious, in determining the need for, and justifying warfare. They are very good at exploiting the state of war that they create for political gain at home, however.  I'll give them that.  Now, some think that's a coincidence.  But then some think "Intelligent Design" is a scientific, falsifiable theory that merits respect.  I would guess that many of the same people think both things.  

    They have also proven themselves. by the way. not very capable of planning ahead for the consequences of starting wars.  They don't ven know how to define winning. But they are, indeed, arvellously skilled at authorizing attacks.

    Parent

    Four years of miserable failure (none / 0) (#88)
    by Al on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:09:15 PM EST
    in Iraq, and nothing to indicate a single new idea.

    Parent
    I like this version of Jim (none / 0) (#51)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:11:45 AM EST
    Better than the one who kept passing off weird arguments to morally justify Republican wars.

    The look how many bombs we have argument.  Real manly.  

    Parent

    Glanton old bean (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:01:41 AM EST
    Huh?

    You are known by what you do.

    BTW - Did you see 24 last night?

    It turns out the nuking of LA was the fault of the evil Russians...

    Whoolywood can't get away from the Cold War no matter what... plus we now know it was the evil businssman who was the go between the Rooskies and the misunderstood Moslems.

    There now. Feel better??

    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#58)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:58:18 AM EST
    If you actually read my posts on "24" (instead of just snarking and pretending) you'd know I don't much care whop they represent as enemies.

    Now the pro-torture thang, well, that's another story.  Because I'm not pro-torture.

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:17:25 AM EST
    Well, I'm glad to know you aren't pro torture there.
    I mean for a second I had my doubts about you.

    And my advice is to select your friends more carefully than your enemies.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#71)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:38:47 PM EST
    I think we're at a point where people need to assert whether or not they are pro-torture.  This is absurd, as the very democratic ideals that supposedly underpin the United States cry out against institutionalized torture.

    But wait!!  With the rightlawyer speak, a la Bybee at al, we have found that all we need to do is trouble the word "torture" to make it mean basically whatever the current government wants it to mean.  No organ failure, no death?  Then it's not torture.  Good thing that finally got cleared up, all those humanitarian dummies all over the world and in this nation had been muddying things for far too long.

    Oh, and what if there is organ failure, what if there is death?  Well, we can explain that away, too, simply by arguing that it was an accident.

    How convenient.  People like you get to say to yourselves and everyone else that you're against torture, but endorse it all at the same time.

    And BTW, very few people on any side of the political spectrum aho are at all remotely familiar with "24" disupte the pro-torture argument of the show.  It's called the "ticking time bomb scenario," a hypothetical beloved by intellectual reptiles like Dershowitz, Gonzales, and, apparently, yourself.

    Parent

    There ye go, Jim (none / 0) (#49)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:08:06 AM EST
    Doesn't that feel better, and come much easier, invoking Might, than struggling to make it sound Right?  

    Parent
    Speaking (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:04:10 AM EST
    Doing what??

    I wasn't in town that day.

    Good grief.

    Bought your prayer mat??

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#59)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 09:04:27 AM EST
    Really, Jim?  

    "Bought your prayer mat?"

    You're really going with that, now?   I really, really hope you don't actually harbor such parnoiac fear.  I hope, for your sake, that you just cynically throw such language around to pi$$ off reasonable people, and to gin up fear in those weak-minded enough to fall for it.

    But if you really believe it, then it's like you think you're in some Lord of the Rings movie or something.  And wow, that must suck.  Sorry for you.

    Parent

    Glantin, say, "Ouch." (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:20:22 AM EST
    It's called saying things to remind people what the absolute extreme result of their current activities and beliefs will be.

    Like, "Bought your portable oxygen tank yet?"

    Parent

    Hate Speech (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:40:32 AM EST
    "Bought your prayer mat?"
    Is nothing like:

    "Bought your portable oxygen tank yet?"

    It is more like Bought your Yarmulka yet?

    Did you get that line from hate radio? or did you come up with it all by yourself?

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:50:14 PM EST
    Which line are you protesting?

    The pray mat is just a reminder that if the country becomes Moslem, you will need one.

    The second was a reminder to ask your MD about the drug Chantix to help you quit smoking.

    And I have no information that tells me that the Jews are trying to attack our interests world wide and take over the country.

    Do you know something I don't??

    Maybe that will explain all the anti-Jewish stuff I see floating around from the Islamists..


    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:51:40 PM EST
    The pray mat is just a reminder that if the country becomes Moslem, you will need one.

    You really don't see the ridiculousness of that statement, do you?  A foreign poliocy guided by the fear that the United States is in danger of being "Muslimized" makes sense to you, doesn't it?

    Good grief.  Little Green Footballs world.  On that site, in case you've never been (yeah right), if there's a shooting anywhere in this country their commenters start chattering away, "has it started?"  The derangery does have a final stage, it seems.  

    You know, I'm pretty positive that even George W. Bush knows how whacked you guys are, with your fear of prayer rugs sweeping the nation.
    And that's saying something.  

    Parent

    Unmitigated Bigotry (none / 0) (#75)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:10:59 PM EST
    and racism. The same fearmongering used against de-segregating schools, KKK anti immigration of Catholics. And the most direct example we have in recent history is Nazi fearmongering in Germany. The jews, if not stopped, were going to take over Germany and then the world.

    No wonder that ppj has tried to hide his hand when confronted with his vile remark:

    "Bought your prayer mat?"

    by saying it was akin to

    "Bought your portable oxygen tank yet?"

    Poor diversion ppj. Your hand is called for what it is: Bigotry and racism Jacksonian style.  

    Parent

    Squeaky's Education (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:45:38 PM EST
    Your lack of knowledge re Jackson is obvious.
    Try studying, reading, etc..

    Just for your benefit and to show how agonizingly dumb you can be. I wrote:

    It's called saying things to remind people what the absolute extreme result of their current activities and beliefs will be.

    And yes, the need for a a prayer rug will be very real in 30 to 50 years... much shorter for those who live in Europe because they don't understand that they are being out bred by the Moslem immigrants who the Europeans did not demand assimilate into the European culture.

    So you have second gneration citizens that have not assimilated and think that the country is "theirs." Note how many of the terrorist attacks have came from second generation Moslem citizens.

    We're a little better off, but not much.

    The statement:

    Like, "Bought your portable oxygen tank yet?"

    Was made to remind Glanton of his stated desire to quit smoking, and what those who don't cam look forward to. That is, the Big E. Neither example seems to have worked.

    Both plights are not yet cast in concrete.

    BTW - Your attempt to smear is juvenile...

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    Since your (much) later defense was that since the  subject was Rove it was okay because you would only do it against Rove. When I noted that two wrongs never make a right under any curcumstance you ran away and hid. (I also knew you had and would do it against anyone who you disagreed with.)

    Further, as you know, you had attacked Rove bcause his grandfather was supposedly a Nazi.

    When I pointed out that blaming people for their Grandfather's sins was wrong, you again ran away and hid.

    You like the B and R word. Let us exaime what they mean and compare them to your actions and statements:

    Bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    I return you to your own statement:

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    and

    Racist: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    I again return you to your own words:

    I read that Rove's grandpa was a major Nazi, built a death camp. ....If your father was a Nazi, ppj, I would feel sorry for you...

    I would agree that Nazi is no more a race than  Moslem is, but if you want to use broad definitions, works for me. The point being, of course is that you blame Rove for the "race" of his grandfather, something he had no control over.

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#114)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:56:44 PM EST
    When will TL finally limit this commenter to 4 posts a day!?

    Parent
    The sadness continues (none / 0) (#120)
    by glanton on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 11:18:38 PM EST
    And yes, the need for a a prayer rug will be very real in 30 to 50 years

    I there really are people who think this is a credible statement about America's national direction; there really are people who hold this fear as a guiding principle for foreign policy.

    Stay alert.  

    Parent

    Bla, bla, bla (none / 0) (#121)
    by squeaky on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 12:34:11 AM EST
    Whatever you say, ppj. Glad to be so inspirational.

    to show how agonizingly dumb you can be

    hmmmm sounds like

    TW - Your attempt to smear is juvenile...

    Isn't that what you are doing?

    And yes, the need for a a prayer rug will be very real in 30 to 50 years

    What a load of horse pucky.

    "Bought your prayer mat?"
    is still nothing remotely like

    Like, "Bought your portable oxygen tank yet?"

    No matter how much drivel you exude.

    It is the same thing as Bought your Yarmulka yet?

    Racist, bigot, however you try to squirm out of it, your hate speech against moslems is analogous to Nazi hate speech against jews seventy years ago.

    Dishonesty is your signature. poker player jim is  an eponomyous moniker.
     

    Parent

    Funny you should ask (none / 0) (#74)
    by Peaches on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:07:59 PM EST
    what if there is something you don't know, Jim? Would it really make any difference?

    Cheering Movers and Art Student Spies: Was Israel Tracking the Hijackers Before the 9/11 Attacks?

    Now, three of these guys were seen on the morning of September 11, just after the first plane hit the North Tower, quote-unquote, "celebrating" on the New Jersey waterfront. Now, that's -- I put the quotes around that, because it comes from a FBI BOLO, or "be on lookout," an alert that was put out regarding these men that day. The celebration apparently consisted of high-fiving, according to one FBI official, of holding up cigarette lighters, as if they're at a rock concert. So, remember, the plane has just hit the tower, exploded in the tower, and these three men are behaving rather oddly. Later in the day, they were picked up. Two other men apparently joined them in a van. They were -- the case was immediately handed over to FBI counterintelligence. The men were held for 71 days. They were repeatedly interrogated. They repeatedly failed lie detector tests. And then, after those 71 days was up, they were sent home, apparently under pressure or because of pressure brought by the Israeli government and by certain players in the US government. And the story sort of disappeared from there. I mean, 20/20 covered this -- ...what's interesting there is that, you recall after the first plane hit, no one really thought that this was a terrorist attack. I mean, most people thought -- and I was there, you know, on the Brooklyn waterfront watching this whole thing. Everyone thought it was an accident. These guys, when they were interrogated by FBI, told them that -- essentially said that they immediately knew it was a terrorist attack. And they actually told the FBI that the reason they were celebrating was because the attacks would be beneficial to Israel, that it was, quote, "a good thing for Israel" -- that's according to the FBI spokesman who spoke on the record about this -- and that it would bring sympathy for Israel's political agenda in the Middle East.

    ...two of those movers were identified as Mossad agents. And they were interrogated about it. ...they were indeed recognized as Mossad agents who were essentially tracking a Muslim activist in the New York/New Jersey area. ...They were sent home to Israel in, I think, November, if I remember, allegedly for immigration violations, and they're home.



    Parent
    Peaches (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 04:50:44 PM EST
    Peaches... You admitted to having some weird beliefs.

    I never challenged you.

    Parent

    PPJ, this is too insane even for you (none / 0) (#89)
    by Al on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:12:50 PM EST
    So if we don't attack Iran, the US will become Muslim?

    Parent
    Well, Al.... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:33:12 PM EST
    He has admitted to having some weird beliefs... heh.

    Parent
    Al, what will you give up?? (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:56:18 PM EST
    Al, the issue is that this is a culture war. I understand that you think we can just withdraw to the US and pledge not to fight, but if you are paying any attention at all to Iran you know that they are pledging to destroy Israel, attack the US, etc and etc.

    And you forget what OBL said in this interview with Peter Arnett of CNN in 3/97.

    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world

    Link

    So here we have a clear indication that we must let the Moslems, as a group, do as they like "in the whole world." The last time I checked that included the US.

    Now this obviously won't happen all at once. It will be over time, and will include a series of negotiations to establish what they can, and cannot do. So the question is, what will you be willing to give away, first?.

    Freedom of religion? Freedom of the press.. can't have those nasty newspapers and internet blogs criticizing Moslems. Women's rights? The rights of Gays and Lesbians to live??

    Tell me, Al. What will you be willing to give up for a few more years of peace??


    Parent

    Brought to you by the inventors of the GWOT. (4.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Bill Arnett on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:55:11 PM EST
    An invention, a construct of men who don't mind killing relentlessly when it serves their purpose.

    A fairy tale to kill and die for.

    limited military strikes against nukes (2.00 / 1) (#21)
    by diogenes on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:55:16 PM EST
    The world would be a worse place if a "limited military strike" took place against Iran's nuclear infrastructure?  Didn't the Israelis do such a limited military strike against Iraq's nuclear infrastructure in the eighties?  Is the world a worse place because Saddam had a crimp put into his plans?

    simple answers (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:37:23 PM EST
    The world would be a worse place if a "limited military strike" took place against Iran's nuclear infrastructure?
    Yes.

    Didn't the Israelis do such a limited military strike against Iraq's nuclear infrastructure in the eighties?
    And that's still working for them isn't it?

     

    Is the world a worse place because Saddam had a crimp put into his plans?
    Yes, 3,000+ Americans and hundreds of thousands of iraqis have died for a lie.

    Parent
    Sailor lives in a two dimensional world (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:50:04 PM EST
    And how many Americans, not to mention Itaqis that would have been killed by Saddam, are alive because we didn't let him get back into the WND business, as David Kay said he was trying to do??

    Parent
    In fact (none / 0) (#40)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:17:58 PM EST
    as you very well know, David Kay found exactly nothing.

    Parent
    Al, you need help (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:52:23 PM EST
    Please be accurate.  David kay found no weapons per say, but he did find delivery systems (rockets) that were in violation of the UN sanctions, and the attempt by Saddam to purchase even longer range rockets.

    I wonder what he wanted those for? Hmmmmmmmmm?

    He also found concrete evidence that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business as he noted in his reports. His last word on the subject was:

    "There were continuing clandestine activities but increasingly driven more by corruption than driven by purposeful directed weapons programmes," argued the 63-year-old former diplomat and sleuth.

    Link

    If you assune for a minute that we had not invaded, the regime would now have had almost four years to get back into the business. Does the thought of WMD's being built by a corrupt regime bother you?

    Perhaps the most interesting thing is this:

    Saddam Hussein's regime offered a $2 million (£1.4 million) bribe to the United Nations' chief weapons inspector to doctor his reports on the search for weapons of mass destruction.

    Rolf Ekeus, the Swede who led the UN's efforts to track down the weapons from 1991 to 1997, said that the offer came from Tariq Aziz, Saddam's foreign minister and deputy.

    A clean report from Mr Ekeus's inspectors would have been vital in lifting sanctions against Saddam's regime.

    Link

    Now let me see. Saddam hadn't done anything, wasn't planning to do anying so he tried to bribe the head inspector to tell the truth???

    Huh??

    Come on Al. Use that noggin for something besides a hat rack.

    Parent

    ppj is wrong again (none / 0) (#64)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 11:11:51 AM EST
    from ppj's link
    Even since Kay's seminal testimony there have been attempts to reinterpret what he actually said. The media has been accused of focusing on a single soundbite, ignoring the ISG's findings that the Iraqis had indeed been trying to develop long-range missiles they were not entitled to
    The inspection were working, nothing was there and yet a increasingly shrill and small percentage of fools continue to lie about it.

    Does the thought of WMD's being built by a corrupt regime bother you?
    Yes, that's why we need to impeach bush.

    Now can we get back to the subject of iran?

    Parent

    Sailor... trying to confuse (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:41:12 PM EST
    The point is not that no WMD's were found. That is not in discussion. And you know that, and that is why you keep trying to confuse the issue.

    The issue is that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business. (See the links in my reply to Al, below.)

    And here is what the report said.

    With regard to delivery systems, the ISG team has discovered sufficient evidence to date to conclude that the Iraqi regime was committed to delivery system improvements that would have, if OIF had not occurred, dramatically breached UN restrictions placed on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War.

    Detainees and co-operative sources indicate that beginning in 2000 Saddam ordered the development of ballistic missiles with ranges of at least 400km and up to 1000km and that measures to conceal these projects from UNMOVIC were initiated in late-2002, ahead of the arrival of inspectors. Work was also underway for a clustered engine liquid propellant missile, and it appears the work had progressed to a point to support initial prototype production of some parts and assemblies.

    Now, tell me sailor. What did Saddam want with these delivery systems??? Why would he risk being found in violations if these were not important?

    You know the answer as well as I do. He wanted a delivery system for his weapons. A 1000KM is a long range tactical missile, and if adapted to ship board launch would make it a perfect weapon to be launched from off the shores of the US to a large variety of US cities.

    Parent

    Using my noggin (none / 0) (#90)
    by Al on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:24:26 PM EST
    he did find delivery systems (rockets) that were in violation of the UN sanctions

    No, he didn't.

    He also found concrete evidence that Saddam was trying to get back into the WMD business as he noted in his reports

    Again, no, he didn't. He said he did, but he didn't come up with anything. Where's the beef?

    As for your quote from the Telegraph,

       Saddam Hussein's regime offered a $2 million (£1.4 million) bribe to the United Nations' chief weapons inspector to doctor his reports on the search for weapons of mass destruction.

        Rolf Ekeus, the Swede who led the UN's efforts to track down the weapons from 1991 to 1997, said that the offer came from Tariq Aziz, Saddam's foreign minister and deputy.

        A clean report from Mr Ekeus's inspectors would have been vital in lifting sanctions against Saddam's regime.


    please note that (a) we don't know if Ekeus said this. Christopher Hitchens said Ekeus told him this. (And we all know how reliable Hitchens is). And (b), it refers to the period 1991 to 1997. In 2003, there was no indication that Saddam was pursuing WMD's. The UN inspectors that were dismissed by Bush didn't find anything, and neither did anyone else. There were several attempts at concocting evidence, including Colin Powell's infamous show-and-tell at the UNSC, which he himself later admitted was all wrong. But it is an indisputable fact that Iraq was occupied for reasons that were entirely false.

    And I don't wear a hat.

    Parent

    Fallon has no proof either (none / 0) (#106)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:08:05 AM EST
    Asked in a CNN interview whether he believed Iranians were shipping weapons to Iraq, the top commander in the Middle East said Tuesday he didn't know. "I have no idea who may be actually with hands-on in this stuff, but I do know that this is not helpful to the situation in Iraq," said Navy Adm. William Fallon.


    Parent
    Sailor, will uou get serious (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:23:52 PM EST
    Saying he didn't know is just that.

    It doesn't prove anything.

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:21:53 PM EST
    Why do you make such claims? I have linked and will link again. None of these are from bloggers and/or Hitchens... They are from recognized hard news sources.

    Re the bribe attempt. This is what he said. It is a direct quote.

    Link

    Mr Ekeus told Reuters news agency that he had passed the information to the Volcker Commission. "I told the Volcker people that Tariq [Aziz] said a couple of million was there if we report right. My answer was, 'That is not the way we do business in Sweden.

    Here are Kay's actual words on the start up.

    "There were continuing clandestine activities but increasingly driven more by corruption than driven by purposeful directed weapons programmes," argued the 63-year-old former diplomat and sleuth.

    From  the Kay report and in his words.

    With regard to delivery systems, the ISG team has discovered sufficient evidence to date to conclude that the Iraqi regime was committed to delivery system improvements that would have, if OIF had not occurred, dramatically breached UN restrictions placed on Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War.

    Detainees and co-operative sources indicate that beginning in 2000 Saddam ordered the development of ballistic missiles with ranges of at least 400km and up to 1000km and that measures to conceal these projects from UNMOVIC were initiated in late-2002, ahead of the arrival of inspectors. Work was also underway for a clustered engine liquid propellant missile, and it appears the work had progressed to a point to support initial prototype production of some parts and assemblies.

    Why do you continue to deny?

    Parent

    simple question (none / 0) (#37)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:15:05 PM EST
    Is the world a worse place because Saddam had a crimp put into his plans?

    What plans?

    Parent
    By that token, (none / 0) (#1)
    by unbill on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:21:55 AM EST
    by the time Congress is finished arguing - well, the war would be in full swing as well.

    All it takes is one cruise missile to start a war, provided that the other side fights back. There are numerous examples of this, and many more when the US attacked somewhere (I am thinking of Libya, for example) and didn't get a warlike response.

    This is the crux of my argument on this whole legalistic debate that BTD is bringing. That, and even if the US left Iraq tomorrow, there would still be enough troops in the region to carry out the first stages of an attack.

    So the Iranians (none / 0) (#2)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:35:11 AM EST
    are supposedly sending in explosives. Big surprise. The border is a sieve. The cascade of unintended consequences continues to fall on the heads of our troops. The Saudis, meanwhile, are sending millions to the Sunnis.

    Let's see. Who to attack first? The ones with the bombs/oil, or the ones with the money/oil? Either way, this is all a result of the destabilization of the region by guess who. We have created a proxy war b/w Iran and SA. Which brand of islamofascism should we enable today?

    Ask the Decider.

    I was thinking April, but we may be bombing Iran by the end of this week. The media heads are about to explode over this.

    WASF.

    Madness - On Purpose (none / 0) (#3)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:50:47 AM EST
    There is madness in their methods, to be sure, but no bumbling. Only purposeful manipulations.
    "I'm the grandson of one of the late Shah's ministers," said Soroush, "and I simply want to say one U.S. bomb on Iran and the regime we all despise will remain in power for another 20 or 30 years and 70 million Iranians will become radicalized."

    "I know," President Bush answered.

    "But does Vice President Cheney know?" asked Soroush.
    President Bush chuckled and walked away.

    Link

    edger, double dip, eh?? (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:15:10 PM EST
    Perhaps you can tell us, edger.

    If we do nothing, will the radicals disappear? Will they declare that the nuclear program is stopped and throw open their doors for inspection? Will they start celebrating Jewish holiays and tell Hezabollah they are last year's friends and to not expect any further arms?

    Yes, the situation is bad if we do, but worse if we don't.

    Better now than when they have nukes.

    Parent

    Attack Iran For Whose Benefit, May We Dare Ask? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:29:49 PM EST
    It shouldn't come as a shock to anyone if the evidence recently uncovered in Iraq supports the accusations that Iranian weapons have found their way into the hands of the insurgents. However, considering this as the proof of Iran's attempts to kill Americans would take the presumptuousness of such allegations to new heights.

    It is time to cut through the proverbial crap.

    Let's not kid ourselves. The movers and shakers in Washington were not misled by faulty intelligence to start the invasion of the Middle East, and are not pushing forward under some other mistaken guidelines. The Israeli Likud leadership is not driven by a genuine fear or paranoia that the Jewish nation is under an existential threat by Iran. And finally, the Iranian regime does not consist of a bunch of fanatic, suicidal maniacs who'd sacrifice their own lives and their country's very existence for some archaic ideological ambitions.

    No, the intelligence was not faulty, it was deliberately distorted and doctored up in order to rationalize the course of actions for which the events of 9/11 had fortuitously paved the way.

    Propaganda Extravaganza
    Under what circumstances would the following criteria for a news story ever be considered "journalism:"

    1). Reporters met with experts and analysts who would not provide their names, background, or any identifying information
    ...
    2). The allegations that Iran was responsible for the downing of US helicopter in Iraq by using advanced weapons were based on a set of photographs of unknown origin, date, time, or any other contextual information that could be confirmed or debunked. In other words, the facts of the story are unsupportable and cannot be in any way explored.

    3). The White House led officials present at the briefing would not give their names either, despite this presentation being cleared by the White House. In other words, despite this not being a leak, no one would stand by the story.



    How odd ... (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:35:41 PM EST
    the same admin that accussed iraq of having capabilites to make sophisticated sinister weapons now claims the iraqis are too primitive to make sophisticated weapons.


    Parent
    Wingnut logic (none / 0) (#11)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:45:43 PM EST
    Upside down, backwards, inside out, stupid, wrong, and works like a charm on the peasant who:
    cannot protect his country as he believes he is doing because by his indifference, ignorance and credulity he cannot differentiate truth from falsehood.


    Parent
    Faith Based Presidency (none / 0) (#13)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:57:22 PM EST
    aka Presiential Simulacrum

    The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

    NYT

    In other words:  If I say it, it is true because I am the decider

    Parent

    What if???? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:21:55 PM EST
    war lovers (none / 0) (#14)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:58:23 PM EST
    Ex-Bush Iran official: US seeks pretext for conflict with Iran

    A former top Bush administration official for Persian Gulf affairs has said in an interview this morning on CNN that the US may be trying to spark a conflict with Iran.

    Hillary Mann is the former National Security Council Director for Iranian and Persian Gulf Affairs. She warned in the interview that the recent flare up between Iran and the US over the former's alleged assistance to Shi'a militias results from a US desire to provoke conflict with the Iranians.

    "They're trying to push a provocative, accidental conflict," Mann said.

    She added that the administration hopes to goad Iran into an overreaction so that it can have justification to carry out "limited strikes" against nuclear infrastructure and Revolutionary Guards headquarters buildings in Iran.



    Another payback. (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:11:35 PM EST
    From the post's link:

    Hillary Mann is the former National Security Council Director for Iranian and Persian Gulf Affa

    Looks like she is about four years former, and that in December she tried to publish some things that he  government thought were too sensitive to be in the NYT...

    This whole thing smells of an agenda driven pay back.

    Parent

    only to someone ... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:32:48 PM EST
    ... who believes bush's fairytales no matter how many times he's lied before.

    Good think 70% of the country disagrees wiith ppj.

    Parent

    Glenn (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:54:39 PM EST
    Greenwald has an excellent post today on why the democrats are getting a pass on ending the war and why the netroots are not hammering them nearly as much as they should be to cut funding... and how fear is causing the republicans to once again be in control of setting terms of debate:
    This unbelievably irrational, even stupid, concept has arisen and has now taken root -- that to cut off funds for the war means that, one day, our troops are going to be in the middle of a vicious fire-fight and suddenly they will run out of bullets -- or run out of gas or armor -- because Nancy Pelosi refused to pay for the things they need to protect themselves, and so they are going to find themselves in the middle of the Iraq war with no supplies and no money to pay for what they need. That is just one of those grossly distorting, idiotic myths the media allows to become immovably lodged in our political discourse and which infects our political analysis and prevents any sort of rational examination of our options.

    That is why virtually all political figures run away as fast and desperately as possible from the idea of de-funding a war -- it's as though they have to strongly repudiate de-funding options because de-funding has become tantamount to "endangering our troops" (notwithstanding the fact that Congress has de-funded wars in the past and it is obviously done in coordination with the military and over a scheduled time frame so as to avoid "endangering the troops").

    IMO there are two kinds of people the world: actors and reactors.

    Actors lead, take chances, and set goals while everyone else follows. Sometimes they fail. But they pick themselves up and keep trying.

    Reactors watch and follow...

    It's time for the democratic leadership to stop being reactors, stand up and lead, and take charge.

    Or watch an attack on Iran any day now...

    wouldn't it be easier (none / 0) (#23)
    by HeadScratcher on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:30:42 PM EST
    If you would just say that the world shouldn't care if Iran has nuclear capabilities? And they're support of Hezzbolah isn't a big deal? And that the bombings of the U.S. Military base in Khobar isn't a sign of things to come? It would be a lot easier to say these things than to defend all the other hair-splitting rationals.

    Been said. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:39:02 PM EST
    By me, Aug 25, 2006

    As far as Iran developing nuclear weapons is concerned - Uranium enrichment centrifuges and nuclear reactors can be used to produce slow reactions to generate electricity, and fast reactions to generate explosions. We all know this. Fire can be used to cook and keep warm with, and it can be used to burn, kill, and destroy.

    Shall we go after everyone who wants to use fire, because they may attack you back if you attack them? This is turning into the stupidest argument in the history of man. Anyone attacked will use any methods available to fight back. Every country on this planet will eventually acquire nuclear technology just as all of them at one time or another in the past acquired fire.

    There is no way to stop this eventual development, short of stifling and blocking scientific and technological progress, nor would anyone who isn't living their life quivering in fear of life want to. That has been tried in the past. One of the results was the dark ages.

    Every country on the planet will eventually acquire nuclear technology: perhaps at that point no country will risk attacking another, though there will always be psychotic nutjobs who want war no matter the cost, and want to retain enough power to lurch around the world like a nazi monster with hate and fear in their hearts, taking, at gunpoint, with no regard for anyone else - which has been the basis of US foreign policy in the Middle East, and everwhere else except where countries have grown strong enough to deter them. Russia and China for example.

    This is the real reason for wanting to attack Iran - to keep them weak enough to be able to continue the foreign policy of greed that has been pursued by successive US administrations for nearly a century. Every other reason advanced by those who want to attack Iran now is smokescreen.

    The cowards are too insecure and full of hatred to be able to work with the rest of the world. They think that for them to gain, someone else must lose. They have such limited imagination and confidence that they can see no other way.

    Did they really think the bill would never show up in the mailbox? Apparently so...

    The people who want to attack Iran want to do so because they are terrified that unless they do so now Iran will grow strong enough to fight back.


    Parent

    Edger...realty escapes you. (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:57:19 PM EST
    As far as Iran developing nuclear weapons is concerned - Uranium enrichment centrifuges and nuclear reactors can be used to produce slow reactions to generate electricity, and fast reactions to generate explosions. We all know this. Fire can be used to cook and keep warm with, and it can be used to burn, kill, and destro

    The excuse Iran gives is that they want to develop nukes for electric power.

    Given that they have one of world's largest oil fields, why do they want to go nuclear?

    If we believe what the environmental wackos have been saying for years, this will cause all the Iranian babies for the next 1000 years to be born with six toes and two heads... (They wouldn't lie to us, would they?? The environmental wackos I mean...)

    As for Iran. Yes they have. Yes they are. Yes they will. Lie that is. They want nukes to terrorize and control the ME. Wiping our Israel would do that.

    Too bad the Left can't grasp that.

    Parent

    No, no and No! (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:59:55 PM EST
     
    of the results was the dark ages.

    No. It was the failue of the Roman Empire to defend itself that led to the various invasions and subsquent loss of civilization.

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:54:33 PM EST
    Edger and dollars (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:01:23 PM EST
    They think that for them to gain, someone else must lose. They have such limited imagination and confidence that they can see no other way.

    If you are a capitalist in international affairs, why are you a socialist on economics??

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:10:00 AM EST
    Uh-oh (none / 0) (#39)
    by Al on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:05:53 PM EST
    Edger, now you've made PPJ really mad: He thinks you're dissing the Roman Empire.

    Parent
    That's ok, Al, heh. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:05:51 PM EST
    It's just another delusion he's having. Along with the delusion that he'll get a response. But he can't help it, I guess. He just hasn't figured out yet that the post he's trolling after is a refutation of his delusions, so there isn't any more need to respond to him, as if there ever was. You'd think he figure it out by now. It's cute, but kind of sad, really... I guess he just wants some attention.

    I'm sure I'll find out now why the left hates the Romans. ;-)

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:59:17 PM EST
    No, I am realizing that he knows nothing about history. You see Al, Edger is anti-war and has stated he won't fight.

    To justify that position he must continually opine that Iran won't attack us, terrorists are insurgents, etc., etc. That is how he justifies his world view. But when he starts making historically incorrect statements I feel it necessary to correct him.

    Ah, such is life.

    Parent

    If they do... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:49:33 PM EST
    ...attack Irans' nuclear facilities and use tactical nuclear "bunker buster" bombs the enormity of the resulting nightmare is mind numbing:

    Medical Consequences of a Nuclear Attack on Iran
    --Physicians For Social Resonsibility, May 2006

    From our map we can see that within 48 hours, fallout would cover much of Iran, most of Afghanistan and spread on into Pakistan and India. Fallout from the use of a burrowing weapon such as the B61-11 would be worse than from a surface or airburst weapon, due to the extra radioactive dust and debris ejected from the blast site. In the immediate area of the two attacks, our calculations show that within 48 hours, an estimated 2.6 million people would die.
    ...
    Over 1,000,000 people would suffer immediate injuries including thermal and flash burns, radiation sickness, broken limbs, lacerations, blindness, crush injuries, burst eardrums and other traumas.


    Parent
    Since when does someone (none / 0) (#32)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:55:19 PM EST
    have to mess with us for us to attack, Jim? Bush needs no provocation. That much is now certain.

    Pay attention. (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:06:30 AM EST
    They've been messing with us for almost 28 years.

    You just haven't been paying attention.

    Parent

    Che, (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:14:46 AM EST
    As usual, he's got it upside and backwards again.

    When can their glory fade?
    O the wild charge they made!
    All the world wondered.


    Parent
    War? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:30:12 PM EST
    "Wars do not determine who is right. Wars determine who is left."

    --anon



    Think about it (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:20:04 PM EST
    The fact that even 20 percent of people are gullible enough to fall for this BS again means that the mainstream media has amazing power...to do ill. And the Democrats are doing exactly nothing to stop this train wreck. No real surpise there.

    Israel bombed Iraq in 1981 (none / 0) (#45)
    by diogenes on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:26:51 PM EST
    On June 7, 1981, Israeli warplanes destroyed Iraq's nuclear capability.  Was the Middle East any less safe from 1981 to 1991 because of this act?  Were the Israelis drawn into a quagmire in Iraq? If it is dangerous now to bomb working nuclear plants in Iran it is because we were too stupid to bomb them before they were operational.  
    Those of you who think that such an act would violate international law llive in a world where Iran is building nuclear weapons, and where the status of North Korea's weapons (assuming they don't hide some away) depends on whether their psychotic grand leader decides to comply with a treaty or whether this treaty talk is a way to further delay international action.

    The failure of the Roman (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:55:32 PM EST
    Empire "defend itself." Where do you even begin with a gross, heavy handed, oversimplification like that?

    To paraphrase Wanda Gurshmitz: Apes read history, they just dont understand it.

    Diogenes (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:57:21 PM EST
    whats your proof that "Iran is building nuclear weapons"?

    Here's some proof (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:55:14 PM EST
    Looks like we have our smoking guns... 800 of them.

    Austrian sniper rifles that were exported to Iran have been discovered in the hands of Iraqi terrorists, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

    More than 100 of the.50 calibre weapons, capable of penetrating body armour, have been discovered by American troops during raids.

    The Steyr HS50 is a long range, high precision rifle. The guns were part of a shipment of 800 rifles that the Austrian company, Steyr-Mannlicher, exported legally to Iran last year.

    Within 45 days of the first HS50 Steyr Mannlicher rifles arriving in Iran, an American officer in an armoured vehicle was shot dead by an Iraqi insurgent using the weapon.



    Hardly proof (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:02:42 PM EST
    Proof of what ppj. Certainly not proof that the Iranian government has provided Iraqi's with weapons.

    If you think that is proof then it follows that the US government is also providing Iraqi resistance with weapons, because many US weapons have also been discovered in the hands of the Iraqi resistance.

    We should start callling you silly gism.

    Parent

    squaky (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:29:11 PM EST
    The National Iranian Police Organisation bought the rifles allegedly to use them against drug smugglers in an £8 million order placed with Steyr in 2005.

    The company was given permission to export them by the Austrian government, which is not a Nato member

    .

    No proof??

    Parent

    no proof (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:36:50 PM EST
    no proof (none / 0) (#77)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:23:00 PM EST
    A total of 100 HS50 Steyr-Mannlicher rifles were discovered during raids in Baghdad, the British Daily Telegraph reported Tuesday quoting [anonymous] US military sources.
    [...]

    Franz Holzschuh, Steyr-Mannlicher's new owner, said he had no evidence that the rifles in question were produced by his company. So far, there had been none of the official inquiries common in such cases, he told the Austrian Press Agency.

    so an anonymous US military guy makes a claim in a foreign newspaper that iranian rifles were found yet he hasn't bothered to check with the mfg'er to see if serial numbers match.

    BTW, these guns cost $20k each. I'm sure iran is just going to give them to insurgents.

    Doesn't pass the smell test, but wrongwingers will be all over this as 'proof.'

    Parent

    Propaganda Extravaganza (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:36:17 PM EST
    British Daily Telegraph reported Tuesday quoting [anonymous] US military sources.
    ...
    none of the official inquiries common in such cases
    Propaganda Extravaganza:
    So, we have source of unknown credentials, allegations based on evidence that cannot be vetted or properly investigated, officials who despite being authorized to present this information to the press are unwilling to go on the record, and a motive for providing this information that appears to be disingenuous. What then, I ask, makes this news? Furthermore, what makes this front page material with titles ranging from the mild "Iran arming insurgents sources say" to the absurd "Iran killing US soldiers in Iraq?"
    what makes this front page material?

    Answer: it works like a charm on the peasants.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:33:16 PM EST
    Now let me see, my company has just been nailed over selling weapons, after protests from Britian, to Iran. Said weapons have been found in use by terrorists in Iraq killing US and British forces.

    Yeah, I would want to talk about it. Uh huh. Sure...
    This place got a back door?

    And who said they were in use by Iraqis????

    Can you spell Iranian???

    Parent

    No proof (none / 0) (#86)
    by Sailor on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 06:17:21 PM EST
    And who said they were in use by Iraqis????
    Exactly. Who did say it?

    bushco makes claims, doesn't have any proof and doesn't make any attempt to verify it.

    Haven't we all seen this movie before?

    The ironic thing is last time bushco had their stalwarts (AKA cheney, powell and rice) make false claims, now they rely on anonymous sources.

    Parent

    Re: Austrian sniper rifles (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:29:31 PM EST
    Catapulting the propaganda... again
    Larisa, at-Largely, February 13, 2007
    Consider for a moment the absolute lazy logic this implies. If we assume (and there is no reason to believe these allegations) that arms purchased by the government of Iran via an Austrian company were actually the NUMBERED/TRACEABLE weapons found in Iraq (which we don't yet know, they are just the same guns), that still does not implicate the Iranian government, does it?

    Here is a brain exercise in Americana format: If the DOD purchased Lockheed weapons that were also found, for example, in the arms of Al Qaeda, would that mean that the DOD was arming Al Qaeda or that even Lockheed was arming Al Qaeda?
    ...
    [3 scenarios]
    ...
    What I am attempting to show in these three examples is that it is a serious jump to conclude that because a company in Austria sold these types of weapons to Iran and because these types of weapons happened to be found with Iraqi insurgents, these two events illustrate that the Iranian government is involved in arming the Iraqi insurgency. But to use these allegations as the basis of so called intelligence and a pretext for yet another war is not simply lunacy on the part of the administration.

    See, the allegations do not need to make sense or even be true. This information is not targeting people who can think for themselves and it does not pretend to. The target audience for these allegations is the Republican base and as long as they are convinced, then the administration can maintain some support for their crazed plans.
    ...
    See, propaganda does not need to be tasty or even digestible. It just needs to be swallowed, without question.



    Parent
    edger - Occam's Razor (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:26:43 PM EST
    You fail Occam's Razor by making more assumpations than necessary.

    The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one.

    1. We know that these weapons were sold to the Iranian government to supposedly be used by the police in stopping drug traffic.

    We know that large quantities of these weapons have been found in Iraq being used by Shia insurgents.

    We know that Iran is a Shia Theocracy and a foe of the US and Iraq but not certain Shia organizations within Iraq.

    It is logical to assume that the weapons were provided by the Iranian government.

    Your posit:

    2. Weapons manufactured by Lockheed and sold to DOD have been found in large quanties being used by al-Qaida.

    We know that Lockheed is an American company with no past record of unlicensed sales of these weapons.

    We know that if caught doing so Lockheed would face huge fines, heavy criticism, future business loss and jail terms for some executives.

    We know of no sale of these weapons to any organization supporting al-Qaida.

    It is logical to assume that these weapons were stolen or taken in battle, but not sold to any organization supporting al-Qaida.

    It would not be logical to assume that Lockheed has sold them due to the multiple penalaties involved and lack of record.

    Parent

    Front Page (none / 0) (#79)
    by Peaches on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:49:51 PM EST
    The story broke on front page of the Nytimes and the author was reporter Michael R. Gordon. If anyone remembers, Gordon and former New York Times reporter Judith Miller co-authored the infamous September 8, 2002 piece alleging Iraq attempted to purchase aluminum tubes towards developing nuclear weapons.

    Same old story. Why is the Times running this stuff and not doing any reporting (checking sources, getting direct evidence and creating proper context/perspective-for instance that Suadi Arabia funds Sunni insurgents who have posed a much greater harm to US troops), when they admitted they got it so wrong in the leadup to the invasion?

    Democracy Now asks these questions and more today.

    I'm laughimg at you (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:23:18 PM EST
    to keep from crying.

    Well, well boys and girls, I haven't seen so much denial since Aunt Jane developed a huge bulge in her  lower front area of unknown origin.

    The Foreign Office expressed "serious concerns" over the sale of the rifles last year and Britain protested to the Austrian government.

    A Foreign Office spokesman said last night: "Although we did make our worries known the sale unfortunately went ahead and now the potential that these weapons could fall into the wrong hands appears to have happened."



    Is this the same Foreign Office (none / 0) (#92)
    by Al on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:33:12 PM EST
    that was telling us that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear weapons program? Are you kidding?

    Parent
    Al, that's a strawman (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    Iraq had a program. Israel crippled it.

    Iraq restarted it..

    We crippled it..

    Parent

    Explosively Formed Distractions (none / 0) (#84)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:48:28 PM EST
    From TomPaine today:
    Well, the long-delayed other shoe has finally dropped. The U.S. government has for months been promising "slam-dunk" evidence that the Islamic Republic of Iran is providing weapons to militias attacking American troops in Iraq, a causus belli that would at least justify whacking Iranian targets in Iraq, if not direct strikes against Iran. Either way, it's sure to do only two things: start a much larger war and unify the Iranian people around their leaders.

    Ray McGovern has done an excellent job of casting aside the distraction of the Bush administration's case against Iran and looking at the potential nuclear standoff in his call for Congressional action today at TomPaine. But he does not address the substance of the latest round. The Bush administration has repeatedly delayed a public presentation of this evidence, reportedly after the intelligence community demanded the report be "scrubbed" of hyperbole and exageration. This is the precise parallel to the possibly illegal manipulation of intelligence produced by Dougles Feith's office in the runup to war with Iraq in 2003--and discredited by the Pentagon last week. Finally, on February 11, major papers across the Unites States reported on a briefing given to reporters in Baghdad by three government sources, who insisted on anonymity. They detailed the supply of the new "IED", the "EFP" or "explosively formed penetrator," allegedly made solely by Iran and used exclusively by Iranian-supplied militant groups in Lebanon and Iraq. They are allegedly the most deadly weapon facing U.S. forces on the Iraqi battlefield. You can see some of the props presented to reporters yourself here.

    Charges of this seriousness require serious scrutiny. While some questions were raised by the mainstream accounts of this briefing, they were deliberately crippled by the terms of the briefing: complete anonymity and

    No TV cameras or tapes were allowed in, and journalists' cell phones were taken away before they entered the briefing room.

    But many questions remain. The case made by the administration focuses on Iran supplying "rogue" elements of vocally anti-American Moqtada al-Sadr's Jaish al-Mahdi. But the briefing seemed to acknowledge that Iranian diplomats and security officials had been "caught red-handed" only in the company of U.S. allies such as a proto-consulate in Kurdistan and in the offices of SCIRI leader Abdel Aziz al-Hakim, a supporter of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and honored guest at the White House.

    ...
    Does any of this seem familiar? Can we stop this nightmare from happening all over again?


    Brainwashed and (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 05:52:47 PM EST
    spin dried.
    Deception and lies worked so well for Bush/Cheney and the neocons the first time around that surprise, surprise - they've rolled out the same smoke and mirrors show again, with the same actors, and once again insult Americans and the world with the assumption that they are so stupid they'll fall for it one more time.

    The only thing worse than being suckered is staying suckered while knowing you had been, and letting yourself be suckered by the same thing from the same people, again.
    ...
    'NYT' Reporter Who Got Iraqi WMDs Wrong Now Highlights Iran Claims



    Parent
    Edger That's a strawman (none / 0) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:22:29 AM EST
    Uh, so you want to igore the Telegraph?

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:28:55 AM EST
    Above link "spin dried" is to Edger's blog, not to a third party.

    Parent
    Page taken down (none / 0) (#93)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:23:38 PM EST
    The page on iraqslogger referenced in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph has been taken down sometime since it went up about 3 hours ago, as you'll see if you click the link (repro'd below):

    You can see some of the props presented to reporters yourself here.

    However, the Google Cache of that page is still active -- here.

    Parent

    This time around (none / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 07:07:49 PM EST
    The deceit and the lies and the manipulations of bushco, and the glazed eyed stiff armed heel clicking credulousness of their drooling sycophants is being exposed, highlighted, documented, and recorded, blow by blow, in real time, as it happens. It will be as clear as can be that the only thing left to do with these kind of people is marginalize them off the cliff so that this kind of sh*t never happens again.

    There is no way the attack on Iran will not go forward, in my estimation, failing defunding the Iraq occupation, forcing bush/cheney to withdraw the troops there, and impeachment of both of them.

    Even the threat of impeachment may tilt them over the edge and speed up an attack on Iran.

    It's time to dust off the Nuremburg procedure manuals...

    Edger (none / 0) (#96)
    by glanton on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:36:26 PM EST
    I agree its inevitable that the blunderers will blunder right into Iran and pretty soon.  And there's no way in Hades anybody's getting impeached.

    All there is to do is laugh.  The thing has become an absurdist play, and must be treated as such.  Somber speeches from these greenbloods, the perpetual playing of TAPS as if these lives aren't being literally pi$$ed away, no longer need to be met with outrage, or even refutation, but just with satire and revelry.  Play the fiddle as the ship goes down, as it were.  

    Parent

    It would be laughable I guess (none / 0) (#97)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 03:51:15 AM EST
    if they really were "blundering". But I don't think they are:
    I've said repeatedly that I believe the situation in Iraq is, and has been since the invasion, exactly what Cheney/Bush et al want it to be. I believe they have worked towards toward this moment for six years, if not longer.

    "a terrorist act or some provocation blamed on Iran" is now probably the most likely event that will spark a US attack on Iran. It may happen today or any day in the next few weeks or months, it will kill large numbers of Americans, and it probably will come in a form that will be impossible to trace back to or lay at the feet of the Bush Administration, but it will be one that they are directly responsible for creating nonetheless

    More...



    Parent
    Edger - That's deceptive (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:18:34 AM EST
    Hey edger... Isn't linking to a comment made by you on your blogspot deceptive??

    Links are usually used to provide some proof for or against a comment made by someone. Many times the reader just sees the link and assumes that a third party agrees with the comment.

    That isn't true when you link to your own blog and your own comments.

    So if you want to link to your blogspot, why not put the name in the link. That way all would know that all you have done is used TL as a forum to get visitors to the blog!

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#105)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:03:49 AM EST
    Edger (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:20:14 AM EST
    The above link, "more" is to Edger's blog, and is not representative of a third party's opinion.

    Parent
    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#107)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 10:26:45 AM EST
    Jornalismnists (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 08:48:43 PM EST
    If there was any independent sources, other than the US gov they would most likely find that the "discovery" was bogus. Austria is cooperating with the US. Who's to say it aint so?

    Michael Gordon?

    hahahaha

    ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own realityreality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out.

    from Ron Suskind's Without a Doubt

    Oh the humanity! (none / 0) (#103)
    by jondee on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:36:23 AM EST
    As if an orangutan (or even a Fox watcher) couldnt figure that out.

    Aw jondee, don't be so mean (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 09:53:34 AM EST
    He was having his very first "eureka!" moment and you went and poured cold water all over it... You wrecked his buzz. ;-)

    Parent
    "I Intend to do something about it" (none / 0) (#109)
    by Peaches on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:00:47 PM EST
    Mr. Bush said, alluding to the armor-piercing weapons.

    From today's news conference.

    Bush Says Iran is Source of Deadly Bombs

    iow, Let the bombing commence.

    God help us.

    This man (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 01:37:45 PM EST
    Ahh, now bush issues a detraction ... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Sailor on Wed Feb 14, 2007 at 05:59:08 PM EST
    ...sort of:
    Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called into question assertions by three senior U.S. military officials in Baghdad on Sunday who said the highest levels of Iranian government were responsible for arming Shiite militants in Iraq with the bombs
    [...]
    On Monday, Pace said he had no firm knowledge that the Iranian government had sanctioned the arming of the insurgents

    Navy Adm. William J. Fallon, the top commander in the Middle East, said he didn't know.

    "I have no idea who may be actually hands-on in this stuff

    a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad would not confirm recent military statements that Iran's leadership is directing the production of an armor-piercing explosive said to be supplied to extremists in Iraq.

    "I think people want to make an inference," Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said at a briefing. "I think people want to hype this up.

    At a White House press conference Wednesday, Mr. Bush acknowledged that the United States had no proof that top Iranian leaders  such as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had approved the shipment of the explosively formed penetrators.
    [...]
    "What's worse? That the [Iranian government] knew? Or that it didn't know?" said Bush

    Just to recap; An Army general and official spokesman, on the record, says it's hype. The top military commander in the Middle East says he has no idea and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff says he has no proof. And finally, Bush says he has no proof.

    What's worse, Bush getting caught lying about it or getting caught lying about it and still trying to justify it?

    What's worse? His audience. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:58:30 PM EST
    What's worse, Bush getting caught lying about it or getting caught lying about it and still trying to justify it?

    ...the allegations do not need to make sense or even be true. This information is not targeting people who can think for themselves and it does not pretend to. The target audience for these allegations is the Republican base and as long as they are convinced, then the administration can maintain some support for their crazed plans.
    ...
    See, propaganda does not need to be tasty or even digestible. It just needs to be swallowed, without question.

    And Bushs' audience will get down on their knees and open their mouths wide.

    Parent

    Al - You gotta believe sometimes (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 02:39:54 PM EST
    I was also there when my parents told me that Santa Claus was real.

    I was also there when a buddy proved otherwise.

    So, according to your logic I should not believe anything that my parents told me later, and everything my buddy did.

    Al, being an adult means that you must have the ability to sort through a variety of information, understand where it came from and use as required.

    Hopefully with as little bias as possible.