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FBI Agent Used Friendship, Not Torture, to Get Info From Saddam

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:39:00 AM EST
Tags: Saddam Hussein (all tags)
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FBI Special Agent George Piro spent 7 hours a day for 8 months with Saddam Hussein after his capture. The goal: to get him to confess to crimes and get information out of him.

He didn't use torture. He used friendship.

Instead of bright lights, loud music or waterboarding, the Beirut-born Arabic speaker - who immigrated to the U.S. as a teen - built a rapport with the dictator nabbed in a spider hole. He treated him with respect and took care of his every need.

And, he got results. Piro's account is contained in a new pro-Administration book, "The Terrorist Watch: Inside the Desperate Race to Stop the Next Attack."

Until 9/11, Saddam thought UN sanctions would go away and he could make a nuclear bomb. His prewar weapons of mass destruction deceptions were a ruse to convince Iran - whom he feared - that he had an arsenal.

Other disclosures:

Saddam never used body doubles - as was widely believed - because no one could "play" him, Piro quoted Saddam as saying.

He admired Americans, particularly ex-Presidents Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan - but loathed the two Bushes he fought wars with. The "Butcher of Baghdad" also confessed he ordered Kurdish civilians gassed and slaughtered thousands more, their remains left in mass graves.

The book was released yesterday.

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    FBI Agent Used Friendship, Not Torture, to Get Info From Saddam | 75 comments (75 topical)

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    Agent Piro (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 02:17:02 AM EST
    must not have watched enough 24.

    The irony that the US Gov't didn't torture a known torturer because it wanted to accurately determine how much torture and murder that person caused is surely lost on the pro-torture apologists in Washington. (I include pious handwringing Dem presidential candidates who can't be bothered to filibuster Mukasey and Sens. Schumer and Feinstein among them. Glenn Greenwald has their number.)

    I want my walkman (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:31:32 AM EST
    As you read this, remember what this man was convicted of doing.

    But I am sure you will emote for hours over the horrible treatment he is undergoing.

    [ Parent ]

    Your (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:33:19 AM EST
    intellectual buffonery knows no bounds.

    Why don't you go emote over the rabid frothings at Gates of Vienna?

    [ Parent ]

    Why don't you go emote (1.00 / 2) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:58:37 AM EST
    at the doors of Senator Dodd's office.

    where he claims he was tortured severely...Whether he is lying or not, by our actions we have allowed Khalid Mohammed to claim the moral high ground. Khalid Mohammed plays martyr to a world that is inclined to believe it.

    The radical Moslem terrorists have caught on that they should claim torture at all times.

    Waterboarding is not torture.

    Dodd's lack of defense of the US... his country...is disgusting.

    Especially when a stone cold killer is involved.

    [ Parent ]

    You miss the point (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:08:54 AM EST
    as usual

    Your betrayal of American values is stunning, but typical of a certain strain of far right buffoonery.

    The post is about how unnecessary torture is and how much more effective other techniques are.

    But that seems, like most good sense, to have gone right over your head.

    [ Parent ]

    Please try to be accurate (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:10:45 PM EST
    no matter how unusual it is for you. Trust me. You can. But it removes much of your position.

    I have never approved of torture. In fact, as I demonstrate in my archived comments in my reply to Jondee, I have long called for "investigate, indict, convict and punish."

    I do not consider waterboarding as torture. And as I have also noted, I do not consider sleep deprivation, temperature extremes, acts that supposedly insult their sexuals hangups/mores and religious beliefs.

    Waterboarding is the most aggressive of these techniques, and as I have commented in the past, I would use it very selectively.

    So your attacks on me are based on your desire to limit all questioning of terrorists and suspected terrorists. Thus you seek to claim that what is not torture to be torture.

    But whatever you call any method of obtaining information, that information can be vetted for truthfulness.

    The argument against torture should be made on a moral basis. Not that if we do it that justifies them doing it and vice versa. And that somehow protects the troops, because we know the terrorists pay no attention to such things. Not on "the information" can't be believed. All information is always vetted, no matter how obtained.

    I suggest you stop your simplistic attacks. That dog doesn't hunt.

    [ Parent ]

    Still hoping against hope (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:27:25 PM EST
    that one day you'll find someone here stupid enough to think you make any sense, are you?

    You've had this problem for years now, ppj.

    You don't think it's the lack of stupid people here that is your problem, do you?

    [ Parent ]

    Actually edger (1.00 / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:24:14 PM EST
    I have long known that you are beyond help.

    [ Parent ]
    The question went right past again, huh? (5.00 / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:29:34 PM EST
    You didn't hear the whizzing sound?

    [ Parent ]
    your post (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:05:05 PM EST
    is typical since  most defenders of torture  falsely define away much of what is torture in the real world. So you are defending it, just like Yoo and Gonzalez and all of Bush's enablers in his continuing Iraq catastrophe.

    Stop the childish semantic games. Your position is morally bankrupt, intellectually obtuse, and damaging to US interests in the long term.

    You make wholly ignorant assertions about my "desire to limit all questioning" based on goddess knows what crystal ball you have next to your monitor.

    Give it up!! Torture is wrong, waterboarding is torture. The laws are clear on this. Read them. Read The Administration of Torture by Jaffer and Singh to find out how knee deep in depravity the Bush Administration is. You are wrong to advocate torture in any circumstance.

    IT IS NEVER RIGHT TO TORTURE.

    It's that simple.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:06:13 PM EST
    Waterboarding is not torture.

    then I invite you to arrange for yourself to partake in a session of waterboarding, seeing as you seem to think it's good clean fun, totally disregarding the lawyers of the justice department, whose job it was to decide whether or not it was torture, judged it was.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, since you claim that it is (1.00 / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:17:55 PM EST
    I think you need the experience.

    And who might those lawyers be????

    I wait your information anxiously.

    [ Parent ]

    Wait as long as you want buckwheat (none / 0) (#39)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:29:33 PM EST
    I am under no obligation to do your homework for you. If you own a TV, read a newspaper, it's all there.

    As for my experience with it:
    I had a loverly parental unit waterboard me (washcloth shoved in my mouth, and covering my nose, while he dumped water from a bucket over it), so yes, it is effing torture. Try it, it you think otherwise.

    [ Parent ]

    It has long been considered (1.00 / 2) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:22:37 PM EST
    proper form, and part of being considered a serious commentator instead of a troll, that he who makes the claim provides the evidence.

    As for your parental unit's actions I would consider them to be overly aggressive in a situation that (I assume)had nothing to do with national security and/or keeping US troops safe.

    I would say it is close to assault, if not assault.  But not torture.

    BTW - Calling a black person "Buckwheat" is generally considered to be an insult. I am not black, so it doesn't bother me.

    But you didn't know that. So it is evident that you would have no problem insulting a black person who disagrees with you, based on their race.

    Think about it.

    [ Parent ]

    you claim waterboarding (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Jen M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:00:09 PM EST
    is not torture

    This makes it crystal clear that you have never read a single word of the US and UN and treaty definitions of torture that have been posted or linked to here on talkleft.

    Posting any information to answer YOU is obviously futile, since you will ignore it as you have in the past.

    [ Parent ]

    Probably is futile (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:01:00 PM EST
    But I had to try.

    [ Parent ]
    Just because (1.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:29:07 PM EST
    the UN claims something is real doesn't mean that intelligent people believe it.

    I reference the "Oil For Food Program" which was actually "Bribes for Officals."

    I reference the "man made GW" nonsense which is actually, "Give us your money and control of your country."

    I ask again. How can a feminist not routine and regularly condemn the radical Moslem terrorists??

    That you decline to answer raises many questions.

    [ Parent ]

    Your Law And Order (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:42:23 PM EST
    Positon is a sham. Illegal acts are OK if they are against Muslims and Undocumented workers, just like illegal acts were OK when they were against blacks.. Well if the blacks are looting it is OK to shoot them.

    It is US law that waterboarding is torture. Molly Bloom has posted the link at least 10 times demonstratig that Japenese were put in US jails for using waterboard as torture.

    Nothing is torture as far as you are concerned. And it is telling that whenever a torture thread comes up you are the biggest commenter. It is yOur favorite subject.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 09:53:30 AM EST
    It is US law that waterboarding is torture.

    If it is, then Molly should be able to post that law. She has not. I have seen no one else do so.

    Ergo. No such law exists.

    My favorite subject is letting those who have no appreciation of the fact that we truly are engaged in a global war, both military and cultural, with radical Moslem terrorists, display their true selves.

    You do a wonderful job.

    You chastize me for "intellectual honesty," yet you are the one who said that facts didn't matter.

    Edger calls me a liar and when he is immediately proven to be wrong, he will not apologize.

    Jondee makes false claims time and again, and is proven wrong with information from the archives. Yet he continues with his false claims...

    I have asked you what liberties you are willing to give up... women's rights....gay rights... freedom of religion....etc... and you don't respond...

    Edger comments that the terrorists who are killing thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens are not terrorists but are just trying to get rid of the US...

    And you say things like:

    Nothing is torture as far as you are concerned.

    You have no proof, yet that doesn't matter to you. After all, in follow up, one year after your declaration of not needing facts, you wrote:

    ppj does as ppj does (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 09:58:35 PM EST

    (I had written)So because Rove is doing wrong, it is okay for you to do wrong?

    (You replied) I have no problem with alleging that Rove's grandparents were Nazi's. Even if they were not, he uses Goebbels' propaganda techniques as a bible and may as well be a born and bred Nazi.

    Do you realize that is the same position that you claim the government has adopted re torture?

    Doing wrong for the "greater good?"

    So please continue with your off the wall attacks. They demonstrate thoroughly who you are.

    [ Parent ]

    You have heard of the (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:46:50 AM EST
    Geneva Conventions? The Constitution? I suggest you go read up on this and stop posting foolishness.

    There has never been any doubt that waterboarding is torture until this morally desolate administration decided to make themselves over into little tyrants.

    You can shout and whine and post irrelevant material and make ludicrous comparisons but the fact is that torture is prohibited by law, doesn't work, and is immoral.

    You hide behind specious claims of global war, a Podhoretzesque fantasy that only a wingnut could love. If someone isn't on board with your Strangelove ideology they must be jihadis or fellow-travelers. Pathetic, but phone up Giuliani, he might have something for you.

    [ Parent ]

    Me? Racist? (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:00:12 PM EST
    choking with laughter You have no idea how funny that is.

    You will say or do anything to try to make yourself the victim, even if it's of your own venom.

    I have the 'evidence' bookmarked, just waiting for your above rhetoric to spew forth. Here you go, buckwheat!

    Waterboarding  deemed torture.

    Buckwheat is also used as an allusion to a farm hand, and ignoramus. Again, i am under no obligation to do your homework for you, but you do need object lessons ONCE in a while.

    It wasn't assault, it was done repeatedly until I did what the bastard wanted me to do, thereby defined as TORTURE. Kerhisting hell, get a clue, would you!

    [ Parent ]

    tehe (1.00 / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:49:20 PM EST
    You will say or do anything to try to make yourself the victim,

    Well, duhhhh. Did you read what I wrote??

    I am not black, so it doesn't bother me.

    Is there something there that you don't understand??

    And really. Do you actually think "Buckwheat" is a word to use on blacks??

    HOUMA, La. -- A state (Democrat) representative in a runoff election infuriated civil rights leaders after she ended a conversation with the mother of the NAACP's local president by saying, "Talk to you later, Buckwheat."

    Link

    As far as Daniel Levin's opinions re waterboarding, will this shock you when I say that his opinion is about as useful as mine? Or yours?

    We know it is a nasty deal. But are nasty things torture??

    According to the Left, this is a CJ problem and should be dealt with as such.

    Can you say USS Cole? 9/11? African Embassies???

    Insanity is many times defined as doing the same thing time and again and expecting a different result.


    [ Parent ]

    BTW (1.00 / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:57:37 PM EST
    Do you want to give us a complete description? Or do you want to try and play games....

    So, based on your most recent claims, it was torture because it was repeated?? I have no particular problem with the "repeated" part. I just don't believe the act itself rises to torture.

    There is also the important matter of what is allowed by who. War is sanctioned killing. If civilians do it they are terrorists. Aggressive interrogation by the police is illegal, but perfectly ok when done by national security people...

    Try and not see the world only as "black and white." It isn't.

    [ Parent ]

    Why is use of physical abuse to elicit information (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:25:53 PM EST
    of such importance to you?

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Evidently you just pile on (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:01:35 PM EST
    without reading. Oh, but you did.

    Now you say "physical abuse."

    Care to make any more changes???

    [ Parent ]

    I am not making any changes (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:29:35 PM EST
    You support water boarding. Water boarding is physical abuse of prisoners. You support physical abuse of prisoners.  That is moral depravity.  What darkness exists in your soul?

    Who would Jesus water board and under what circumstances?

    Its your position Jim. I've told you before not to blame me if you discover you don't like your position.

     

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    I can't answer for Jesus and (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:03:26 AM EST
    I doubt you can.

    Can you answer for the current group of radical Moslem terrorists that keep sawing off heads....flying airplanes into buildings.... blowing themselves up in restaurants filled with civilians.... kill women who they claim have dishonored the family...etc.....

    And I am not going to let you change the subject, which is torture. I do not support torture.

    Waterboarding is not torture.

    You are merely trying to establish that any interrogation that doesn't start with,"You have the right to be silent,"is torture. I suspect this is because you are a criminal defense lawyer. No problem. Works fine with me for US citizens and non-citizens legally in the country.

    The rest get a tribunal. And aggressive interrogation where deemed necessary.

    [ Parent ]

    Still hoping, huh? (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:08:50 AM EST
    Heh!

    [ Parent ]
    As usual you are wrong (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:30:41 AM EST
    I am a property lawyer.

    Jesus can answer for himself and perhaps you should review his position

    I have no need to answer for:

    the current group of radical Moslem terrorists that keep sawing off heads....flying airplanes into buildings.... blowing themselves up in restaurants filled with civilians.... kill women who they claim have dishonored the family...etc.....

    Their behavior is not the American standard, though their behavior may be your personal standard.

    Eliciting information through physical abuse of prisoners does not work. They will say anything their abuser wants to hear to stop the abuse, true or false. Every study shows this. Abusing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed got us false information. Congratulations! You endorsed physical abuse and you got false info in return.

    Physical abuse of prisoners does not work and moreover is morally depraved.  What is your other rationale- because they do it to us?  So you are no better than a Moslem extremist? Congratulations!

    "Once in a while you get shown the light In the strangest of places if you look at it right"
    [ Parent ]

    Your post (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:49:29 AM EST
    presents a typical wingnut dilemma: if you oppose torture because it goes against American values, you must be a Saddam sympathiser. You need to get over yourself and realize that the tough thing to do is not to exact revenge in the most barbaric manner possible.

    This country is not protected by turning the Constitution over to Blackwater and their thugs for safekeeping.

    This country is not protected by phony wars and corrupt GOP politicians, no matter how much you may wish it were.

    The country knows this, why don't you?

    [ Parent ]

    My my .... (1.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:10:36 AM EST
    You must not believe in the rule of law.

    An al-Qaeda operative serving life in prison for his role in the bombing of American embassies in Africa

    Now. Was he executed?? Nope. He was convicted and allowed to live. (I find that shameful. He deserved death.)

    The bombings -- which came within minutes of each other on Aug. 7, 1998 in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya -- killed 231 people, including 12 Americans.

    Do you defend this man? This poor baby who helped kill so many innocent men, women and children now complains and wants:

    In a new U.S. District Court lawsuit, Al-Owhali wants a judge to order prison brass to provide him with expedited mail services, expanded phone privileges, and access to radio and TV news broadcasts and English and Arabic newspapers and magazines.

    And you close by:

    This country is not protected by turning the Constitution over to Blackwater and their thugs for safekeeping.

    Show me where there is any proof of that statement. You can't. It is just BDS in full bloom causing you to mouth overheated rhetoric.


    [ Parent ]

    more buffoonery (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:14:31 AM EST
    what has this got to do with anything? Talk about moving goalposts!

    Pathetic.

    More wingnut dilemmas.

    Try a new tactic, but try to stay on topic.

    [ Parent ]

    In case you didn't read the post (1.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:23:34 PM EST
    and since you forgot what you wrote:

    The irony that the US Gov't didn't torture a known torturer because it wanted to

    My response was dead on topic, and specifically showing that here we have a killer of hundreds that is being allowed to live because of the rule of law in this country.

    It is called a rebuttal. Use a dictionary.

    [ Parent ]

    your post (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 01:07:38 PM EST
    like most of your posts was not "dead on topic," but dead in the water, intellectually, morally, and politically.

    Your particular corner of the wingnutosphere may think that coming online saying something rude and irrelevant constitutes argument. Pathetic.

    You advocate torture, which is unAmerican, worthless as a means of gathering information, and illegal, and now you seem to want to bob and weave in typical wingnut troll fashion. You lost the argument, deal with your manifest failure.

    [ Parent ]

    He's Our (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 01:17:57 PM EST
    Very own low hanging fruit or pinata as some would call it.

    [ Parent ]
    Do you still beat your wife?? (1.00 / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:06:24 PM EST
    I have specifically noted, years ago as my response to the smearer Squeaky demonstrates that I am not for torture.

    So, based on your repeated false claims when you know they are false, I crown you "tnthorpe Squeaky."

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    Wear your crown in good health. You certainly have earned it.

    [ Parent ]

    awww (5.00 / 0) (#67)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:15:40 PM EST
    you just go ahead and think that.

    you just go ahead.

    Because only you are buying what you're trying to sell.

    [ Parent ]

    HhahahhhahahHAHA (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by squeaky on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:29:50 PM EST
    He fancy's himself as Karl Rove, he is a cartoon character here.
    So, yes he is delusional.  


    [ Parent ]
    And squeaky wrote what he wrote... (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 15, 2007 at 11:05:12 AM EST
    that is proven.

    [ Parent ]
    my, my (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:21:12 AM EST
    I missed the part where someone said he shouldnt be in prison.

    Please direct me to that post, Jim.

    [ Parent ]

    I said he shouldn't be in prison. (1.00 / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:05:05 PM EST
    He should have been hung by the neck until dead.

    There. I hope that clears things up.

    Heck. I knew no one around here would think he should have been hung. I mean, most didn't want Saddam hung.

    Absolutely Right! (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by JHFarr on Sat Dec 30, 2006 at 12:31:15 PM EST

    We are all tainted by the vengeance in our name.
    It's just like a lynching. There most certainly was NOT a "fair trial." If there had been, we'd have heard all about current Bush administration officials' dealings with Saddam in the past. We'd have heard lots more, too.

    The whole thing makes me sick. A lynching, absolutely. Illegal, immoral, and dirty as hell. I honestly don't think America ever will recover from the Bush years. "Tainted" doesn't begin to describe what's happened to us, frankly.

    Link

    I can just see JHFarr stamping his foot and shaking his finger, saying:

    There most certainly was NOT a "fair trial."

    lol

    Of course this guy wasn't hung. Instead he was spent to Florence. What does the Left in general think of being allowed to live? Well, Moussaoui's sentence caused a gaggle of blather about the inhumanity, etc. of the facilities.

    Re: Moussaoui Arrives at Supermax in Florence, Col (none / 0) (#16)
    by cpinva on Sat May 13, 2006 at 09:43:30 PM EST

    the "eye for an eye" crowd, as usual, misuses the bible for their own perverted purposes. it was a warning, not a mandate. well, it would appear my contention, that mr. moussaoui, was, indeed, the winner, has been borne out, by his incarceration in detention facilities that are the very essence of the 8th's prohibition against "cruel and unusual punishment". i'll bet their mothers are so proud! this merely serves to prove, to the fanatics, the corruption of the christian west. could we possibly be any stupider? i think not.

    Tell me. What can these people do that you would hang them for?

    [ Parent ]

    Not locating your neighborhood (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:37:43 PM EST
    yet. Falls under the heading of criminal incompetence.

    You certainly have a thing about hangin' though --as your idea about what to do with disobedient U.S soldiers proved awhile back..

    The Abolition of Lynching and it's Discontents?

    [ Parent ]

    Let me help you. (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:53:33 PM EST
    There are certain acts/crimes by military persons that rate execution. Hanging is fine by me. Firing squad also works.

    And I see you try to play the race card.

    Just can't resist, can you?

    hehe

    [ Parent ]

    Turnip truck politics (none / 0) (#4)
    by Rojas on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 07:26:16 AM EST
    Schumer, that grandest of 'centrist' crusaders, defended our actions when we decided the natural end to the Davidian problem lie in torturing and killing children to effect their parents religious beliefs. I see no irony in this.

    The partisains have control and they have successfully marginalised those who dare to question this detour from our core convictions. With the broken alliance of left with the civil libertarian right the bottom rail has taken it's 'right-full' position at the top.

    It was about civilization, not the burned-out and decayed world of Mad Max where all claims become outrageous. It was about building, not burning, and faith, not fear. Things needed for the requisite time and space, and peace that enables men to save their souls.

    The state cannot deliver such a world. With no plan of their own to welcome miscreants back into the fold, no plan for the redemption that tempers the wind for the shorn lamb, they will always be driven to live behind the inky blackness of felt tipped pens, deny their transgressions, and blame their victims for their own demise.



    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, but... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by TomStewart on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 03:32:14 AM EST
    Since he didn't use torture, how do we know it doesn't work?

    How do we know he told the truth?? (1.00 / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:39:46 AM EST
    People will say anything in casual conversations with their jailers.

    Why some people in jail have been known to make up things and tell them to the police to help themselves.

    [ Parent ]

    and (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by Jen M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:02:47 AM EST
    people under torture will give up the lineup of sports teams.

    [ Parent ]
    So??? (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 09:27:29 AM EST
    The point remains. People lie about things to their captors.

    If you care about the accuracy of their claims, you vet them.

    The methods are not new, or unusual. You just ask questions and cross check the answers.

    Jen, you live in a world that is made safe by tough, hard men and women doing tough hard things.

    Be thankful you were born into this world rather than in a Moslem theocracy. I would also guess that you consider yourself a feminist.

    Sometimes when you have a few minutes I would appreciate a comment on how anyone who believes in women's rights can have anything but 100% scorn for the lack of women's rights in those theocracies.

    Looking forward to reading it.

    [ Parent ]

    Not on this thread (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:53:38 AM EST
    Please stay on topic

    [ Parent ]
    "Tough and hard" (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 11:57:35 AM EST
    and with just the right admixture of sadism and pecking order obedience. And to Hell with long term vision, moral standards or moral credibility.

    We cant handle the truth.

    [ Parent ]

    And the "world is made safe" (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:00:43 PM EST
    the way the 9/11 victims world was made safe.

    [ Parent ]
    I have far more scorn (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Jen M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 01:46:36 PM EST
    for things that torture


    [ Parent ]
    And even more (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    For those who advocate torture.  :-/

    [ Parent ]
    There is none so blind (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 04:36:36 PM EST
    The point remains. People lie about things to their captors.

    If you care about the accuracy of their claims, you vet them.

    Torture does not, never has, never will equal the truth! People will sell out their own children, their parents, the neighbors, say anything the torturer wants to hear, regardless of the validity, to make pain stop. Torture doesn't equate good data. Why is that so effing hard to sink in for you????

    Good god, man, where the hell is your humanity? And do not give me the rhetoric of how the bad guys do it, because if we have to use them as a moral compass, that is even more frightening.

    [ Parent ]

    So??? (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:29:12 PM EST
    The issue wasn't about what people may say, but a point that whatever they say can be vetted.

    And I certainly hope that we don't start using the radical Moslem terrorists as an example... we would have to:

    Kick all females out of school.

    Kill all gays.

    Approve honor killings of females who have "embarrassed" the male members of the family.

    Stone females who have been accused of cheating on their ruler/owner/husband.

    Train our young men and women on how to blow themselves up to kill innocent men, women and children who are not of the correct faith/sect.

    etc, etc...

    And most of all... stop placing panties on their heads, all acts that insult their sexual hanguops and, of course no waterboarding.... but sawing off heads instead...

    That DOES NOT work for me. YOU???

    [ Parent ]

    even Jeralyn you (none / 0) (#40)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:30:43 PM EST
    Stay the hell on TOPIC!!!!!

    [ Parent ]
    The topic is torture (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:49:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Disregard the rating (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:55:10 PM EST
    It was an accident.

    [ Parent ]
    You actually rate? (1.00 / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:09:55 PM EST
    You actually think I care??

    How drool.

    [ Parent ]

    Not it wasn't (none / 0) (#46)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:54:34 PM EST
    It was the same rant that Jeralyn chastised you for, with different wording.

    [ Parent ]
    No. Read. (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:08:45 PM EST
    She was saying take the "feminist position re the terrorists" to an open thread, not here.

    [ Parent ]
    Jen (1.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:19:09 PM EST
    I invite you to use an Open Thread.

    [ Parent ]
    no (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Jen M on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:38:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    OK (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:49:49 PM EST
    I can live you supporting a double standard.

    [ Parent ]
    I present to you, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Nowonmai on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:55:55 PM EST
    The Highly Polished Mirror award, aka Pot calling kettle black.

    [ Parent ]
    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:11:58 PM EST
    I'll be very glad to give you my position, including links to the archives, when you ask the question on an open thread.

    Jen has said she won't.

    Now concentrate.

    See the difference??

    [ Parent ]

    sorry, i'm having a difficult time stopping (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by cpinva on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:09:06 AM EST
    laughing.

     "............the desperate race to stop the next attack"

    what a breathless title. you just know those little jihadists are all lined up around the corner, waiting for us to turn our backs so they can strike. now, here, this very instant!

    um, yeah, ok. that, and .50, might get you a small coffee at 7/11. just too damn funny for words.

    So? (1.00 / 0) (#3)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 06:51:19 AM EST

    What works for some won't work for others.  People are not all the same.  

    Signature Song

    How's this? (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:58:42 AM EST
    Torture of the sort popularized by GOP frontrunners doesn't work at all, though it gets people to say whatever they think they need to. Of course, that doesn't seem to matter to an administration that only likes to hear the sound of its own voice anyhow.

    [ Parent ]
    That was for ppj (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 10:22:44 AM EST


    Actually mescaline (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:05:09 PM EST
    and the Brandenburg Concertos would probobly soften them up better, but it wouldnt be as much "fun" for the Blackwater brownshirts and people like Jim would be deprived of the exciting possibility of more Abu Ghraib-type photo spreads.

    [ Parent ]
    Another smear from Jondee. (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 12:49:21 PM EST
    What a surprise, eh? Let's look at what I have written in the past about claimed bad acts by our military.

    CA - Well, whatever happened, my first question is what is an Iraqi doing in Afghanstian? Taking the waters? Getting a high mountian tan? That must be it, because we know that there are no terrorists from Iraq. (Yes, dear CA, that is sarcasm.) Now to the unproven charge. If it happened, it shouldn't have. As before. Investigate, charge, try, convict and pubush. IF you have evidence. Until then, keep on ranting. You never had it so go.

    (Now, I don't know who wrote this reply, but I am including part of it for the staggering lack of logic it displays.)

    Re: Documents Describe Torture at Bagram in Afghan (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 18, 2005 at 07:02:15 AM EST

    Did it ever occur to you PPJ that the Iraqi in Afghanistan could have been sent there after being picked up in Iraq and then rendered to a facility outside of his home country?

    Link

    I have more if you want. Much more.

    And you know that. You are worth only enough attention to allow you to impeach yourself, time and time again.

    [ Parent ]

    Go ahead and impeach me (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 01:00:21 PM EST
    Starr.

    Just please think about giving the human race another go -- once you get the symbol usage and bipedal locomation down, it's really not as tough as you think.

    [ Parent ]

    You do it yourself (1.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 05:47:30 PM EST
    Making claims that are always proved false by links to the archives is not conducive to being taken seriously.

    [ Parent ]
    Saddam (none / 0) (#69)
    by diogenes on Wed Nov 14, 2007 at 08:34:13 PM EST
    Saddam was never a suicide bomber and stayed holed in his bunker, not fighting when he was caught.  He was a man who enjoyed mistresses and the soft life; the soft, flattering approach works on such men.  Flattery is lost on a real suicide bomber who happens to have been caught before the act.  Good agents tailor their approaches to the person that they are questioning.

    FBI Agent Used Friendship, Not Torture, to Get Info From Saddam | 75 comments (75 topical)

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