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Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phenomenon'

By TChris, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 06:50:43 AM EST
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by TChris

The killings in Haditha are not an isolated incident, according to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

In his comments, Mr. Maliki said violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people."

"They crush them with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion," he said. "This is completely unacceptable." Attacks on civilians will play a role in future decisions on how long to ask American forces to remain in Iraq, the prime minister added.

The U.S. shouldn't wait to be asked to leave. The war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi public has been lost. It's time to bring the troops home.

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    Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phenomenon' | 68 comments (68 topical)
    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#1)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 07:36:14 AM EST
    I would be in favor of a 6 month withdrawal with 10 billion a month sent in aid for 12 months to rebuild what we have destroyed. Let the subcontracts go to Iraqi firms through american companies to demonstrate our committment to making life better under a new regime. Having a constitution means squat if they do not have electricity, running water, roads etc. I don't like the thought of massive instability with Iran creeping on the fringe.....

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 07:45:37 AM EST
    I'm all for the Iraqi PM speaking his mind and calling out bad troops if they indeed have commited such crimes. Shows me he's ready to step up and lead his democratic country. But to favor a complete withdrawl now is silly. Better to let US troops be back-up and slowly bring back our daily presence. If we left today the whole place would blow up. Is that what TL and others are in favor of?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 07:51:06 AM EST
    This is a tough subject to be sure. While I support the troops, I hate to see these kinds of tragedies. I believe it goes to the bigger point that our troops are being pushed to, and in some cases, beyond the breaking point. Multiple deployments, under equipped, under nourished - how can our government possibly think this is acceptable treatment of people who are being asked to risk their lives every day? On another note, I wanted to say how much I have enjoyed Talk Left. I have been a daily visitor for a few months now and have told many about it. I have it linked on my little blog and have linked to several of your stories. I really enjoy the in depth analysis you provide to your articles, it makes for a great read every day! Thanks!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 07:55:19 AM EST
    Slado, I agree and I lean left. An immediate withdrawal will lead to severe unstability. What is more important though is getting some of those troops home who have been exposed to the elements for too long. We need to demonstrate clear progess in Iraq and have not done so. The soldiers are pushed to their psychological limits, have been involuntarily extended and are not seeing progess from our government and the Iraqi gov't. As that situation becomes more tense, bad things will happen. I feel bad for troops that have to shoot cars that fail to stop and kill people out of fear. Crappy situation to be in and our gov't has not given them any hope as to the end of the conflict and returning home to their loved ones.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#5)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:00:25 AM EST
    JVL I don't buy the pushed to the limit theory. I mean in certain circumstances people have reacted from indiviual situations like seeing a buddy get killed or feeling like their not making a difference. But it's too easy for people to claim that our military is strapped or pushed to far. Some soldiers are some aren't. We are asking a lot from our soldiers and while we should punish the ones that don't meet our high standards we should also reward and recognize the 99% that do. To paint all the soldiers in Iraq as Rep. Murtha has is to tarnish the majority that are doing their job correctly.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#6)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:01:29 AM EST
    If we left today the whole place would blow up. Is that what TL and others are in favor of?
    If we leave tomorrow it will blow up, if we leave the next week it will blow up etc. Iran has been arming the Shias especially those associated with Sadr. The Saudis have been arming the Sunnis. As soon as the Shias feel we are not killing enough Sunnis for them and they are well enough armed to battle American troops they will kick our a** out and kill them themselves. There is more to democracy than elections. What is it like in Baghdad from Salem Pax in Baghdad
    In the 80s Kanan Makia wrote a book about Iraq under Saddam called The Republic of Fear. Today Saddam is in prison and we Iraqis are constantly being told that we have been liberated but when I look around I still see a Republic of Fear. Life seems to have lost its value and we are shutting up and shutting down because of fear. This is about how when everyone came to destroy what was wicked they killed what was good as well.
    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#7)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:06:05 AM EST
    The soldiers are not being pushed too far. This is done on purpose and represents what has been call the "El Salvador" option after Negroponte. The basic idea is that if you are brutal enough the protest will stop. The US soldiers are just one of many death squads currently roaming Iraq. Usually the US does it by proxy.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#8)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:06:46 AM EST
    Soccerdad when you refrence what its like in Baghdad please also mention what its now like in Kurdistan and the Shiite south so we can get the whole picture.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:10:50 AM EST
    The Shia south is in the process of throwing the British out and is where Sadr has instituted many of the fundamentalist dictums concerning dress etc. Kurdistan is all by itself but eventally the issue of kirkuk will bring that to a boil. There has already been a lot of killing in Kirkuk. Ethnic clensing is in full force, if you call that democracy so be it.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#10)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:15:05 AM EST
    ah yes the south. Lets look at Basra
    Iraq's new prime minister declared a state of emergency Wednesday in the southern city of Basra, vowing to crack down with an "iron fist" on rival gangs battling each other for power. . . . "We shall use an iron fist against the leaders of the gangs or those who threaten security," he said earlier in a speech, apparently referring to the militias as well as rival tribal groups. "And we shall ask all security departments to draw up an effective and quick plan to achieve security." . . . Shouting broke out in the auditorium before al-Maliki delivered his speech, with several tribal leaders accusing local officials and security forces of being behind the mounting violence.
    as noted by Needlenose
    In other news, al-Maliki announced that foxes will be posted in all Iraqi henhouses overnight to keep an eye out for predators...
    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:22:51 AM EST
    Let's face it - we have no idea how bad things really are because things have become because the violence has prevented reporters from travelling very far from the Green Zone. What we do know is that while some areas are safer than others, the entire country is experiencing civil war and unrest. Let's not forget about the 100,000+ people who have fled their homes and are now living in tent cities set up outside the hotzones. Let's take off the rose colored glasses, shall we? Our troops are brave, but let's face facts - their only mission now is to survive.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:34:07 AM EST
    Posted by Jlvngstn June 2, 2006 08:36 AM I would be in favor of a 6 month withdrawal with 10 billion a month sent in aid for 12 months to rebuild what we have destroyed. Let the subcontracts go to Iraqi firms through american companies to demonstrate our committment to making life better under a new regime. Having a constitution means squat if they do not have electricity, running water, roads etc. I don't like the thought of massive instability with Iran creeping on the fringe.....
    What WE have destroyed? The f**king terrorists are blowing things up faster than we can build them-that is where the blame lies. The only reason it is working is that the leftists of the world are falling into line and blaming America first-rather than the terrorists. They blow up a power plant and a-holes like you say "look at how bad America is, there was better electric service under Saddam!"

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#13)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:38:38 AM EST
    The f**king terrorists are blowing things up faster than we can build them-that is where the blame lies. The only reason it is working is that the leftists of the world are falling into line and blaming America first-rather than the terrorists.
    You mean all we have to do to make everything allright is stop "blaming America"? Then the terrorists will stop blowing things up? That's an interesting theory.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:48:33 AM EST
    Quaker... You mean all we have to do to make everything allright is stop "blaming America"? Yeah...kind of. If America was truly united in this effort, the war would have been over by now!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:49:25 AM EST
    There only serious weapon is the world press. If they knew that the world was united against them they would soon realize that their efforts were futile. You are a tool of the terrorists. They blow up civilians every day and you only focus on the mistakes of our troops-it is disgusting.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:51:00 AM EST
    THEIR only...

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:58:19 AM EST
    There only serious weapon is the world press. If they knew that the world was united against them they would soon realize that their efforts were futile. You are a tool of the terrorists.
    ROTFLMAO now I have to clean up the coffee that I spit out laughing so hard.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:00:35 AM EST
    We absolutely could not have defeated Japan and Germany under these circumstances. Imagine if Hitler had blown up his own people and power plants and the American press focused on the atrocities of dead civilians in Dresden.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:03:24 AM EST
    What WE have destroyed? The f**king terrorists are blowing things up faster than we can build them-that is where the blame lies
    I got news for you pollyanna, there is no money for reconstruction this year. The fact that the US was unprepared to secure peace after the fall of Saddam is clearly the fault of the morons who planned this diaster, and who, by the way, ignored the advice of the militarty experts. You guys obviously in your hearts realize that Iraq is FUBAR and being the promoters of individual responsibility that you are, are now blaming all the usual scape goats instead of looking in the mirror. Truly pathetic.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:03:48 AM EST
    JRT - Read some Colin Powell. Have you forgotten "shock and awe". That is your last biscuit troll boy.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:05:17 AM EST
    Think about it Soccerdad-why are they killing their own people? They want chaos-and why do they want chaos? They want tools like you to say "look how f**ked up everything is- GD that George Bush! We better pull our troops out." If you don't agree please tell me your theory on why they are blowing up their own people.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#22)
    by aw on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:05:50 AM EST
    Yeah...kind of. If America was truly united in this effort, the war would have been over by now!
    Sorry we're not all drones.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:12:45 AM EST
    Think about it Soccerdad-why are they killing their own people? They want chaos-
    Your level of ignorance is truly breath taking. The Shias hate the Sunnis because Sunnis were the main member of Saddam's government. So the Shias want power and revenge, the Sunnis don't want to lose power and want to avenge the Shias killing their family members. Al Qaeda is there just plain throwing gasoline on the fire as are the American troops, the former on purpose the latter because of stupidity of their leaders. The various factions have hated each other for hundreds of years and you expect them to have an election then get together and sing kumbaya

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#24)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:21:16 AM EST
    If America was truly united in this effort, the war would have been over by now!
    If we were "truly united" would there have been a better plan in place for dealing with the aftermath of invasion? Or maybe a "truly united" country would have sent more troops? Perhaps you're arguing that a "truly united" country would have used its telepathic powers to make all the IEDs fail to explode? Get real. The little electrons we press into service to explain our view of the world do not have the power to change reality! Sheesh.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#25)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:31:24 AM EST
    I'm game. Let's give it a try. I'll holler "Hooray for us!" and we'll see if nothing gets blown up today, OK?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#26)
    by Jlvngstn on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:46:25 AM EST
    Hooray for US!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:51:58 AM EST
    SD -you have stated the obvious- my question is what is Al Qaeda's strategy other than to creat chaos and civil war and how can it work without people like you as tools?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 09:59:04 AM EST
    Slado, Anyone who thinks "pushed to the limit" doesn't mean anything for the behavior of soldiers OR civilians in Iraq needs to do some serious psychology study. A good place to start is with the film THE HUMAN BEHAVIOR EXPERIMENTS. We ARE a free country, after all. And WE are the ones who are supposed to know better, act better, with a broader base of knowledge.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 10:01:32 AM EST
    JRT, Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or Al Qeada, until we decided to make Iraq a giant petrie dish of violence. Playing the terrorists' game, rather than using your imagination to create another one (and thus bring the rest of the world into the fold) is just disgraceful for a "free" country. Who exactly is a "tool" is certainly an open question.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#30)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 10:25:21 AM EST
    my question is what is Al Qaeda's strategy other than to creat chaos and civil war and how can it work without people like you as tools?
    That's actually two questions. 1) What is Al Qaeda's strategy other than to create chaos and civil war? A: None, probably. It seems rather obvious that is the main strategy Al Qaeda in Iraq employs. 2) How can it work without people like you as tools? A: Wrong question. If its a matter of convincing the terrorists that they can't possibly win, then people like you need to wish harder and clap louder. The fact that the terrorists continue to believe they can win is testament to yourfailure to convince them otherwise, you slacker. Why do you hate the troops?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 10:36:28 AM EST
    Take al Qaeda out of the equation and Shias and Sunnis will still kill each other in large numbers.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 10:45:24 AM EST
    look, bush has stated that the generals have all the troops and equipment they need. How could it possible be our fault that the war isn't won? You wanna find fault, look to the guys who said 'we'll be greeted as liberators', 'they have WMDs and we know where they are', etc. it's no the left's fault that you ba$tards started an illegal war and did take anything into account about the region!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#33)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 11:09:24 AM EST
    BTW, the aforementioned film, THE HUMAN BEHAVIOR EXPERIMENTS, airs tonight on the Sundance Channel. Heady viewing for those who care to enlighten themselves.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 11:13:56 AM EST
    "It's time to bring the troops home." That is not sufficient. We must also find a way (within the Constitution) to figuratively (and possibly also literally) hang all those who enabled this fiasco. That way, we avoid the "tail between the legs" aspect of a retreat. Our apology _must_ include at least a figurative killing off of those responsible. That way, we can hold our heads high. Otherwise we end up slinking away and will enjoy a crippling lack of global cred. which will be horrible in the coming years as China/whatever takes from us whatever energy reserves there are.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#35)
    by DonS on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 11:57:25 AM EST
    If America was truly united in this effort, the war would have been over by now!
    OMG they're at it again! Vietnam redux. Oh yeah, almost forgot: "Hooray for us"!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 12:21:24 PM EST
    "Vietnam redux" Im convinced that a good segment of the right has been searching for some perverse form of vindication/vengence ever since.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#37)
    by roger on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 12:22:23 PM EST
    Sky- I prefer a firing squad

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 01:42:40 PM EST
    aw... Sorry we're not all drones. I'll go you one better,,,as far as I'm concerned, you're not even Americans!

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 01:53:04 PM EST
    I'll go you one better,,,as far as I'm concerned, you're not even Americans!
    BB's white supremacist credentials come to the surface. Before, it was that they weren't Germans. Now we are not Americans. 29% and sinking fast. No wonder they have to cheat, lie and steal all for political gain. Nothing else works at this point with bb's morally bankrupt minority.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 02:21:35 PM EST
    what is Al Qaeda's strategy other than to creat chaos and civil war and how can it work without people like you as tools?
    Of course! The people of Iraq are sitting around glued to their computer screens (on those occasions when they have power) reading the words of TalkLeft commenters. Without our efforts, and perhaps those of the traitorous librul American media, Iraqis would never notice the car bombs going off, the death squads disappearing their families and friends, or the ethnic and religious differences that have led to violence.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#41)
    by Al on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 02:44:59 PM EST
    To blame America for not being united enough for the Iraqi quagmire is like blaming the fans when your football team loses, because they weren't cheering loud enough. Don't blame the war opponents for the Iraq fiasco, BB; go and ask Rumsfeld why after three years the mission hasn't been accomplished. While you're at it, ask him what the mission is.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#42)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 02:51:36 PM EST
    Al, The sports analogy is spot-on. Bravo. How do those Yankees EVER win a game with such tough fans to worry about?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 04:31:32 PM EST
    Here are more examples of why we lost the hearts and minds of the Iraqi and Afghanistani people. The Haditha massacre is not an isolated incident.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 04:38:06 PM EST
    I'll go you one better,,,as far as I'm concerned, you're not even Americans!
    Oh, but we are because we had the good sense to choose our parents wisely. Next he'll say we are sub-human. And I disagree with the sports analogy, it's a lot closer to Tinkerbell, and we just aren't clapping loud enough.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:40:38 PM EST
    And I'm still waiting for the wrongwingers to admit that "violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people." And we did support Saddam against his people, where do you think he got his weapons? BTW, where do you think the taliban got their weapons?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 02, 2006 at 08:45:30 PM EST
    Robert Fisk cuts to the chase:
    Could Haditha be just the tip of the mass grave? I suspect part of the problem is that we never really cared about Iraqis, which is why we refused to count their dead. Once the Iraqis turned upon the army of occupation with their roadside bombs and suicide cars, they became Arab "gooks," the evil sub-humans whom the Americans once identified in Vietnam.


    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 01:11:19 AM EST
    And we did support Saddam against his people, where do you think he got his weapons?
    BTW, where do you think the taliban got their weapons?
    Easy sailor, you are gonna make their heads explode by asking stuff like that. Remember, being a wingnut means never having to know anything about (much less learn from) past U.S. foreign policy disasters.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#48)
    by john horse on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 06:11:32 AM EST
    Ernesto, Being a wingnut also means never having to say you're sorry or admit you were wrong. According to the Iraqi PM, among coalition troops there is "No respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch. It's unacceptable." What right do we have to enter another country and violate the rights of the people in that country to life and liberty? This is not our country. If Americans violate the rights of Iraqis in Iraq why are they not answerable to the government in Iraq. They would be if the government in Iraq was a legitimate government. The Bush admninstration boasts of Iraq having a legitimate "democratic" government but this government cannot do anything to protect its citizens from abuse by foreigners. As it is the only thing that the Iraqi PM can do about the "unacceptable" abuse of his citizens is to feebly protest. He is a political eunuch.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#49)
    by soccerdad on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 06:29:18 AM EST
    Remember, being a wingnut means never having to know anything about (much less learn from) past U.S. foreign policy disasters
    excellent point note the current problems in Somalia

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#50)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 08:45:45 AM EST
    "We fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" is the most inherently racist defense of the war ever promulgated.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#51)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 09:57:38 AM EST
    Rogan, Go read some history. We supported and armed Saddam Hussein for quite awhile, until we couldn't use him anymore. Seriously, are you unaware of our role in the past? That we also had Iran's last genuinely democratically elected leader assasinated? As proud as Americans are of our independence and heritage and history, we tend to forget the awful. And those awful things are PART OF ANOTHER NATION'S RECENT HISTORY. Now, imagine how that must have affected things there? Or affected the citizens' mindsets?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 12:52:13 PM EST
    Did ANYONE watch "The Human Behavior Experiments" last night on the Sundance Channel?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 01:18:55 PM EST
    Dadler - Alot of that segues into the "manufacturing of consent" phenomena. For some examples of its darkest sides and the thinking of the minds behind it, check out the histories of programs like Operation Northwind and the C.I.A's MK-ULTRA program. The people must be lead.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 01:50:38 PM EST
    The above should read Operation Northwoods btw. Northwind was part of the WWII Normandy invasion.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#55)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 02:17:34 PM EST
    Jondee, Yep yep. I only recommended this documentary because it's brand new and, among other compelling things, takes a great look back at the Stanford Prison Experiment of the early 70's, and how the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib mirrors it in an especially and eerily prescient manner. Where both in that experiment AND in Iraq, the prison guards were given little to no guidance -- essentially told to "do what you have to do".

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 02:42:39 PM EST
    So we learned our lesson and stopped arming Saddam. Iran's president was assassinated by lord knows who years ago. If you think arming Saddam and the Taliban was a mistake then you should support rectifying those errors. The US opposed Saddam for 12 years--strange how his evil acts are not his fault but ours. Actually, the lesson from history is that multiethnic states seldom work and that Iraqi self-partition is needed. "Iraq" was a colonial creation anyway. It would be poetic justice that the Sunnis wouldn't get any oil.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 02:55:27 PM EST
    rogan - The mistake is placing the protection of interests above morality. and the same thing will keep happening again and again until we and the rest of the world realize and act on it.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 03:26:24 PM EST
    Of course "nobody" (the Right) is interested in having a TRUELY VIABLE governing body that places international law above Tammany Hall.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#59)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 03:35:47 PM EST
    Rogan, Well, we agree it was a colonial partition. I'd say we disagree on just how to go about making things better. The bull in a China Shop has gotten us the Iraq bloodbath and civil war. Perhaps some freedom-inspired, imaginative diplomacy and example setting, and HUMILITY, would get us much further. And we didn't oppose Saddam until Kuwait, which he f'ing ASKED OUR PERMISSION FOR, and we said, in effect, we don't care. As for Iran's elected Prime Minister's assasination in 1953, be a serious American, we know plenty well what happened. Can you for a second imagine that the tables were turned? That Kennedy were our first elected President, but then Iran said, no, he's too liberal, we have to organize a plot to assasinate him -- and then did just that? When does history run out of impact for you? At twenty years, at ten, at five months? When? I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia, or a Chaldean for that matter, or a Kurd, or a Persian, before this war started, or have any clue about the cultural tensions simmering for decades, and how war wouldn't soothe them but unleash them. If we can't win the rhetorical game, which we aren't even close to doing, if we can't win the hearts and minds, which we're certainly not doing enough of in enough places (if at all), if we can't be smarter and more imaginative and be able to use the TOOL OF FREEDOM, without resorting to massive slaughter and the chaos that ensues, well, then I just don't think we've got much going. To put it nicely. Have a good one.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#60)
    by Dadler on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 03:40:50 PM EST
    Link to info about our role in the assasination of Iran's elected Prime Minister in 1953.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#61)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 10:44:51 PM EST
    Dadler...you're wasting your time. The wingnuts don't know history for a reason: it would destroy every one of their talking points forever.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 10:55:17 PM EST
    Ernesto, You're right about the reason they don't want to know history. But I really don't think Dadler is wasting his time at all. There are many hundreds if not thousands who read TalkLeft who rarely or never comment here... you know?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:06:35 PM EST
    Yes edger, that was a poor choice of words. But you know the wingnuts will not wanna read it, see it, or eeeeever wanna believe it. I guess my question is, why don't they teach this stuff in schools?

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:42:12 PM EST
    Nope. I know their talking points better than they do. Anything unsavory that the U.S and its close allies have been involved in since 1945 is completely excused by invoking that righteous holy war to end all holy wars (till the latest one) The Cold War. Everything from machine gunning entire peasant villages, to dosing U.S citizens with hallucinogens, to exposing Army personnel to radiation at test sites, to the totalitarian suspension of civil liberties is made reasonable and excusable as long as The Cold War is invoked. Now they have another war that they can invoke to excuse anything.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:46:23 PM EST
    The only history that matters is the history of the tribe and its self-interest. Till fall-out do we part.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sat Jun 03, 2006 at 11:49:05 PM EST
    Jondee, you are speaking of the wingnuts that will even acknowledge that these things happened. Most won't.
    The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
    ~George Orwell

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 03:07:39 AM EST
    Ernesto: I guess my question is, why don't they teach this stuff in schools? Educated people dont't make willing cannon fodder. They ask too many questions.

    Re: Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phen (none / 0) (#68)
    by roger on Sun Jun 04, 2006 at 04:06:37 AM EST
    Besides, educated people are never "real Americans" Just ask BB

    Violence Against Iraqi Civilians A 'Daily Phenomenon' | 68 comments (68 topical)