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Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcript

As several commenters have noted, the transcript of the eyewitness identification procedure used by police in having the accuser ID players is here. It's a big topic, and deserves its own thread.

I just finished reading it and I believe it is even more flawed than previously reported.

The first thing that leaps out at me is police failed to tell her the suspects may or may not be in the photos. This instruction is essential. (See here (pdf), pages 41 to 43.) Research is clear that if you don't give that admonition to the eyewitness, there will be more "false hits" and the chances of a reliable ID are dramatically reduced. From Wisconsin's guidelines(pdf):

Witnesses viewing photo arrays and lineups should be instructed that the real perpetrator may or may not be present and that the administrator does not know which person is the suspect.

At first glance, it might seem that informing an eyewitness that the perpetrator may or may not be present in an array or lineup would be stating the obvious. However, eyewitnesses may feel pressure to identify someone from a lineup or array because they believe the police would not be presenting the individuals if all were innocent. When the true perpetrator is not present, this tendency may influence eyewitnesses to identify an innocent person. Studies show that telling the witness that the perpetrator may or may not be present counteracts the tendency to identify the person who looks the most like the perpetrator and reduces mistaken identification rates by as much as 41.6%.11 Telling witnesses that the administrator does not know who the suspect is will also help prevent witnesses from mistaken.

The second glaring error is that the officer says he only used photos of those believed to be at the party. He even told the accuser that the photos were of those of players whom police believed to be at the party. This may be the most egregious error, as I've written before. First, it tells her she's looking at a group which police believe include her attackers. Second, there are no foils.

The third problem is that she says one of the assaulters had a mustache. She says one of the photos looks like the guy except he doesn't have a mustache. This is another improper ID technique. Once they knew one of the guys she described as her assailants had a mustache, they should have shown her photos only of guys with mustaches, including of course, many who were not on the team.

In fact, they should have done three separate procedures, each one with guys who resembled her descriptions of a particular attacker, not lacrosse team players who did not resemble her description.

Some other notes:

  • Reade Seligman is the one she identified with 100% accuracy as the guy who was in front of her and who made her perform oral sex.
  • She describes image 34 as the guy who made the comment about the broomstick. He was not one of her assaulters.
  • Colin Finnerty, image 40, is the one she identified as the second man to rape her. Finnerty is not, she said, the one who strangled her.
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    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#1)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 12, 2006 at 04:24:48 PM EST
    Regardless of the intent of the broomstick comment don't discount how sick it sounds. When hiring strippers to perform, you need to carefully define what you are requesting when you call. If you expect to get a sex show with toys, you need to ask for it when you call, and confirm it when the gal shows up. If the AV was planning on just doing a topless show with simulated acts on another dancer, she could easily have been revulsed at the expectation that she have brought sex toys. She would have been rightfully pissed off/scared out of her wits when some jerkoff makes a comment about using a broom. And she would be right to end the show then and there and not give any money back. If they had brought a bodyguard/bouncer, that's what would have happened. When performing in an exposed manner, the minute you allow someone to cross the line, they'll find a new line to cross. It's just human nature.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#2)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 04:30:21 PM EST
    per wral.com, the defense attorneys are holding a press conference at 8:00. They will carry it live on their site. Maybe some of the cable channels will also.

    Bob,
    I have also found it a little peculiar that for a half-hour one guy was in front, one guy was in back, and Mister 90% only got scratched for all his criminality.
    She already stated the reason. She was left breathless because he was strangling her. She scretched for her life.

    SuddenImpact posted:
    There are some men in their 50s that would be happy with five times!
    I'd be happy to have it BACK after one time. I have asked earlier why she did not just bite it right off, and the answer was, "Well, maybe she was intimidated." Well maybe she was, and maybe she was not THAT intimidated. Who knows for certain ahead of time how she might react? I certainly would not bet my own d*ck on it. It is an after-the-fact observation to say that Reade Seligmann survived intact after an oral sex assault he allegedly made. From Reade's point of view at the time he had to BELIEVE confidently ahead of time that she would not just bite it right off! Usually that kind of intimidation is accomplished by holding a deadly weapon to the head or throat of the victim before the demand is made. Verbal threats might work too, or they might not. I'm just not convinced that verbal threats against the AV would be adequate enough to convince Seligmann ahead of time that it was worth betting his own d*ck on it.

    I'm just not convinced that verbal threats against the AV would be adequate enough to convince Seligmann ahead of time that it was worth betting his own d*ck on it.
    ammm, Do you think it is possible he was drunk?

    ammm, so drunk that he wouldn't care to protect his johnson from getting bitten off?! You must not have one...

    ammm, so drunk that he wouldn't care to protect his johnson from getting bitten off?! You must not have one...
    Don't worry mine is safe I don't use it in rapes.

    Posted by Hicht:
    Don't worry mine is safe I don't use it in rapes.
    Ammm. Maybe that's the point. Maybe Seligmann doesn't use his in rapes either.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#9)
    by january on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:31:29 PM EST
    She already stated the reason. She was left breathless because he was strangling her. She scretched for her life.
    If she was scratching for her life, why wasn't there more DNA under her fingernails, and why wasn't it more conclusive than "consistent with"? Or am I way behind here and somebody's already said. I don't know - I'm just asking.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#10)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:32:39 PM EST
    uh oh. Male genetic material found in vaginal swab. Not good for accuser.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#11)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:34:21 PM EST
    Single male source who is known to the police. Must be the boyfriend.

    uh oh. Male genetic material found in vaginal swab. Not good for accuser.
    Did he say police knows the identity of the person from whom DNA came.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#13)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:37:02 PM EST
    A little probability: if an individual is chosen randomly from a group of 46, and an individual is again chosen randomly from the same group of 46, the chance of the same individual being selected both times is: 1/46 X 1/46, or 1/2116. So, about a one in two thousand shot of the same guy being ID'd as the alleged choker and having the DNA match, if it was a random selection both times. (We hope that it wasn't random, of course!) If the DNA match is correct and the AV picks the alleged choker randomly, she'd have a 1/46 chance of picking that guy. Not all women who are attacked are willing to inflict serious and deliberate harm on their attackers, btw. I don't know if I could. I'd have to be trying to save my kid's life or something. I'm pretty non-violent. I'd have to overcome some incredibly strong inhibitions, even if I was being hurt or forced to do something I did not agree to do. Also, she said she was afraid they were going to kill her. If she bit the guy, she might have feared that he or one of his buddies might have killed her. And they might have.

    Case over? Semen is boyfriend's? Is that what Teresa and Orinoco are saying here?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#15)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:41:47 PM EST
    Lawyers know who the dna belongs to but won't id him. Maybe not the boyfriend after all? I wish an independent dna person could interpret for us.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#16)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:42:17 PM EST
    Not so fast, Ori. The defense lied early on then, or perhaps they were merely mistaken. They said the first DNA tests showed that she hadn't had any sex with anyone recently. NOT! And...we don't know if the investigators asked her, and if she answered them, about having had sex before the party.

    Lora, You wrote:
    A little probability: if an individual is chosen randomly from a group of 46, and an individual is again chosen randomly from the same group of 46, the chance of the same individual being selected both times is: 1/46 X 1/46, or 1/2116.
    James pointed out that the chance of the same individual being selected both times is 46 times what you report here, because each of the forty-six individuals have a 1/2116 chance of being chosen twice.... 46/2116 = 1/46. No?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#18)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:47:39 PM EST
    Nothing in report about pubic hair.
    Did someone ask that question to him? Did he say there were 7 nails not all from the trash?

    I don't see what has changed. Any healty 26 years old person have sex regularly. Obviously they will claim anal, vaginal injuries came from this sex. But even without existing of DNA they would claim the same thing. I agree it is not a positive point for AV, butt I dont see Why case is over?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#20)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:48:07 PM EST
    If she made a wrong ID about who was at the party, so what? That has nothing to do with whether or not she was raped and assaulted. Our memories are not 100% accurate. Doesn't mean we are lying.

    Well, if there was "male genetic material" and it doesn't belong to one of the 46, then that's a problem for Nifong. I thought defense lawyers said "There is no DNA evidence of sexual evidence with anyone AT THE PARTY" If Nifong indicted the three knowing that there was nonmatching male genetic material, then there's a big problem here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#22)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:48:50 PM EST
    Male "known to PD". name on report.
    So is it possible she admitted to having to the poice she had consensual sex with her boyfriend? All that means is that any alleged rapist didn't "finish" in her. Not at all suprised. And yes, the defense team just contradicted themselves.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#23)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:49:59 PM EST
    Orinoco, I didn't hear the pubic hair question. Did you?

    If Nifong indicted the three knowing that there was nonmatching male genetic material, then there's a big problem here.
    Nifong indicted two. Defense confused you. Still mr 90% should be the one partially matched.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#25)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:51:47 PM EST
    dna of boyfriend/whoever isn't conclusive either? Her body must expell dna or something. Are you sure you didn't hear about 7 fingernails?

    Guys relax, Nothing much changed, Defense confusing you.

    What has been said about pubic hair? I missed that.

    Someone post a link so I can hear!

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#29)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:56:45 PM EST
    Well, crap. I don't know anything I didn't know before except that at some time she had sex with someone not a lacrosse player. Wonder who he is? They said they didn't want to drag him through the mud?? And I guess the nail wasn't unused after all since it had multiple dna on it. Orinoco, I must have dreamed the 7 nails and not all in the trash. I have to leave for a while so I'll look for a transcript later.

    There is nothing tying RS or CF to this false accuser other than her id.
    We have already knew that for last 3 days mr case over guy

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#31)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 05:57:37 PM EST
    PB, No. Not if our set-up is the same. Mine is: 2 random picks of one individual out of a group of 46, with replacement. Independent events. First pick: 1/46. Second independent pick from the same group of 46: 1/46. You multiply them together, because they are independent. You have 46 ways to choose the 1st time. Then, given each of those choices (46 of them), each one could be paired with 46 choices for the second pick. That's 46 X 46 possibilities. Any of those combinations has a 1/46X46 chance of being selected, or 1 out of 2116.

    How accurate was the id of the guy connected to the fingernail. Or is nobody talking about that?

    Orinoco wrote: If she made a wrong ID about who was at the party, so what? That has nothing to do with whether or not she was raped and assaulted. Our memories are not 100% accurate. Doesn't mean we are lying. We could be wrong. A wrong id or an inaccurate id has the same value as a lying id. >> Does that mean that the Captains were lying when they left off Reade's name on the attendee list?? 45 attendees is a lot to remember<< Teresa wrote: Lawyers know who the dna belongs to but won't id him. Maybe not the boyfriend after all? >>I'm sure the boyfriend has provided DNA to keep the case moving....<< If there is anything that would help the defense, I'm sure they would be sharing all they can to get the charges dropped on the 2 in question.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#34)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:02:30 PM EST
    Orinoco, If someone from a crowd assaulted me, and I was sure that was the guy, but I was mistaken about who else was in the rest of the crowd, big deal. I can still ID the guy who hurt me.

    Hicht, going back to your comment on my comment, if she is being raped for a half-hour and is breathless for a half-hour, she's dead. You have to breathe. A half-hour is a long time. Fifteen minutes is a long time to be raped. There is a guy right in her face. Why not scratch the guy in front of her?

    Lora, You wrote:
    Any of those combinations has a 1/46X46 chance of being selected, or 1 out of 2116.
    Each of the 46 individuals has a 1/2116 chance of being selected twice, but since there are 46 of them, the overall chance of a double hit occurring is 46 times greater than that, no?

    Two weeks later it's not uncommon to misidentify someone. That's why when someone is charging someone else with a serious crime it's very important to make sure the identification is correct. That's why people who aren't part of the possible group of criminals are put in there. It helps to ensure that the identification is correct. If the AV is wrong about the guy standing in front of her and the identification was improper, and that's all that they have, the case has very serious problems. If the only DNA is her boyfriend's then that suggests that the rape kit could be out, depending on what she told the nurse. Still, there's always tomorrow.

    Bob wrote: Fifteen minutes is a long time to be raped. There is a guy right in her face. Why not scratch the guy in front of her? >>The accuser said she was restrained, they had to grab her arms and push her to the floor. So she was scratching before she was restrained. How many seconds does it take 3 MEN to restrain a woman--weighing maybe 130lbs?? She was impaired, so her coordination was not 100% or her aim. It was at least 3 guys taking turns, possibly FOUR.<<

    Bob, He was strangling her and probably at some point became to agressive to a point she can't breathe. At that point she scratched him. He got the message and let her breathe, I dont think they intended to kill her after all. Other than that she didn't struggle much because of intoxication and/or intimidation. And if you wanna speculate more maybe Seligmann was not in front her at that moment but already left the scene and walking to his taxi. Just speculations. I am out for the weekend. I hope Orinoco doesnt close the case till I come back ;)

    Orinoco wrote:
    We know now that the SANE report is useless. There is no case against RS or CF.
    Were you worried, Mr. Case Closed Guy, that the SANE report was going to id RS or CF? If so, you were alone in that regard. What Seligman and Finnerty have to fear is the possibility that among the various people attending that party will be someone who can place them in the bathroom alone with the accuser at the approximate time she says. Maybe there isn't such a person, but IF there isn't, I'm certainly in no position to know it.

    SuddenImpact: If the AV was restrained with her arms held behind her for a half-hour, on the floor, why doesn't she seem to have any problems with her arms after the fact? If she's restrained flat on the floor how does Seligmann get his dick in her mouth? I am beginning to see engineering problems and design flaws in this scenario. Is she on her back? On her stomach? Teresa, have you tried out any of these positions?

    With regard to the probabilities, I think we are jumping the gun. Perhaps I am confused, but I believe people have said that the DNA material from the fingernail does not conclusively match the 90% ID guy. But, there is a bigger problem here... I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the AV said that the 90% guy had a mustache. If the defense has photos or testimony from credible witnesses that indicate that 90% guy did NOT have a mustache, then the ID isn't 90% - it's zero. The double-edged sword for both the DA and the defense is that the AV sounded rather precise in her descriptions of various players (person mixing drinks, person lifting broom, etc.). Thus, to say that a person looks like the assailant, but that the assailant had a mustache, means that if the person didn't have a mustache, the jury would really have a tough time with that ID. Her IDs will become even more probablematic if the Seligman ID doesn't hang together become of the time-line alibi. She was 100% on him. If the DNA is only a partial match, and the assailant resembled one of the team captains, but had a mustache, shoud the DA be looking for a relative of the person she has identified.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#43)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:25:54 PM EST
    Is it just me or are we all getting a massive dose of deja vu? "Defense Team releases new information! Blah blah blah" Suddenly certain posters quickly regurgitate the conclusions the defense team ask us to believe - over and over and over. Overly excited Egyptians claim this is proof that no wrongdoing occurred. Egyptians repost a bunch of previously proven inept reporting as further evidence that the boys are vindicated and Nifond is inept. We get a chance to see the real evidence / original documents. People are able to understand the true implications of the evidence. "Defense team is full of it!"

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#44)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:27:32 PM EST
    PB, No. 1,1 1,2 1,3 1,4....1,46 (46 possibilities here.) 2,1 2,2 2,3 2,4...,2, 46 (46 more possibilities = 98 so far.) 3,1 3,2 3,3 3,4...3,46 (46 more = 144.) And so on, up to 2116. So, 46 rows of 46 possibilities, with a particular individual showing up twice only once. I forget this guy's number, but it would be that pair, and only that pair. See, we're assuming that only one will have matching DNA. And we're assuming that only one will be ID'd as the choker. There are 46 pairs of matching numbers, true, but only one pair would be right. For 1/46 to be correct, it wouldn't matter which individual was chosen. You would be looking for the probability of all matching pairs, not the probability of any one single individual being chosen twice.

    Lora, I've got a quick pick for the Mega Millions tonight. Odds?

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#46)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:30:41 PM EST
    Bob, et al who are speculating on 'positions'. Feel free to speculate amongst yourselves, but all I've gotten out of the testimony shared thus far is that she was in the bathroom with three guys who did various things to her in probably various positions. And no, there isn't a mandatory class that all strippers go through (or women in general) which teach them to bite off the dick of anyone who sticks it in your mouth against your will. Once they start assualting you, the natural reaction is to go into shock. The loss of control is completely understandable.

    Lora, I think partial match coupled with her identification approaches the results to a "certainty" level. I dont think nobody can argue with that.

    With regard to the line-up, we've spent a lot of time discussing the legalities - but what struck me was the huge chance the DA was taking with this procedure. Specifically, most line-ups involve asking the AV to ID the person who did it...end of story. In this case, the AV was asked to ID a large number of people who were at the party, regardless of whether they were assailants or not. What stikes me as extremely risky (for the DA) is that anyone is likely to make errors in this sort of line-up. I sure I would make false negative errors (failing to ID someone who was there), and false positives (IDing someone who wasn't there). This can only hurt the AVs credibility in the eyes of the jury. Can someone explain to me why Nifong had the AV engage in such a risky procedure? What does it gain for her? Why not simply ask for the assailants?

    Bob wrote: If the AV was restrained with her arms held behind her for a half-hour, on the floor, why doesn't she seem to have any problems with her arms after the fact? >> Envision her wrists as being criss-crossed. And her elbows at the side of her ears. Envision Read with knees to the floor and straddling her face. As far as problems with her arms we dont know her injuries. But anyone at that age most likely has good flexibility and that is nothing more than an exercise move if the arms are flat to the floor. Scenario TWO==>Her arms restrained at her sides and Reade is in her mouth in an upside down fashion, thrusting in her mouth while holding the sides of her face. Her arms were not behind her while on her back.

    Pat, You wrote:
    Her IDs will become even more probablematic if the Seligman ID doesn't hang together become of the time-line alibi. She was 100% on him.
    The characterization of her id of Seligman as 100% is an interpretation I do not share. The accuser claimed that she was 100% sure that the person in the photo looked like Seligman. If the person who attacked her looked like Seligman but is not Seligman, that claim on her part would not be even slightly mistaken. Why treat witness identification as if it is a "unique identifier?" We all know that it is not. You wrote:
    If the defense has photos or testimony from credible witnesses that indicate that 90% guy did NOT have a mustache, then the ID isn't 90% - it's zero.
    Complementarily, if the defense has photos or testimony that indicate he did have a mustache, that might shift the accusers assessment in the direction of certainty.

    Did anyone hear the degree of the match with the third person.

    azbballfan, Absolutely. The defense releases something, Nifong leaks something, everyone jumps to a conclusion. I missed the press conference so I've just got the info posted here. However, if one of the residents handed the cops the fingernails, and if another resident threw the fingernails into the garbage, that would raise possible contamination problems. I'm not sure what the other semen means. She's could certainly have sex with someone else prior to coming to the Buchanan house, that's her prerogative. It might be a problem if she did not tell the SANE nurse about having sex earlier in the evening and the nurse thought that she was collecting evidence from an assailant. That would mean that the nurse was misled as to how the semen and any possible vaginal and/or anal injuries may have occurred. If neither Seligmann nor Finnerty were having sex with the AV for thirty minutes and neither one had an orgasm (or left any other DNA evidence), there must be something in the water in Durham. Most 19 year-olds measure the length of their first sexual encounter of the night in seconds, not minutes. Thirty minutes without an orgasm is a mighty long time. Lest IMHO or chew2 raise the specter of limp dicks again, that might fly for oral sex, but not for vaginal or anal sex. I am reminded of a Margaret Cho joke about the magician stuffing a silk cloth... Never mind.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#53)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:51:42 PM EST
    Teresa, did you hear in the beginning that the players "handed" (exact quote?) the nails to the cops?
    Yes I did. I still think he said not all of them were in the trash and that there were 7. I was playing with a dog so I may have dreamed it though.

    azbballfan, I find it incredible that a woman is raped for a half-hour or a similarly long time and never scratches the person who is directly in front of her. I find it incredible that a man participates in a rape holding the victim's arms for thirty minutes and never gets an opportunity to rape her himself. I find it hard to believe that if the woman were flat on the floor in a bathroom that three-way sex could have been done with a fourth person holding the victim's arms. SuddenImpact raised a scenario. I find it implausible. I find it implausible that someone's arms were held behind her back for a half-hour and then minutes later she shows no sign of discomfort. Did it happen? I don't know. But I've got a pretty good imagination and I can't figure out how this happened. It's like the "magic bullet" theory in the JFK assassination. If you say it happened, tell us how. If it doesn't pass the laugh test then you better hope you don't have to convince a jury.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#55)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:58:13 PM EST
    Teresa, have you tried out any of these positions?
    LOL. Not lately Bob. I think we need to forget about a 30 minute rape. That just doesn't happen. I'm sure 5 minutes would feel like forever. IF they were holding her down, I guess the bruises on her arms, shoulders and neck, if any, would show that. The defense had already said she had not had sex and now they say an inconclusive amount of male material was found, but what does that have to do with a SANE exam? If she has any serious injuries, I guess Mr. Anonymous will be blamed?

    PB, if the 100% identity leads to a false indictment, that's very problematic, especially for the indictee. She didn't say, "This guy looks like Seligmann." She said she was 100% sure that this guy was the one who forced her to give him oral sex. With the rigged identification process he was shooting fish in a barrel and it looks like she still missed the barrel. Not good.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#57)
    by azbballfan on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:06:44 PM EST
    Bob, We all know you don't need new evidence to be released to find ways to argue with yourself. At times it's amusing, at times it's confusing. Try not to take so many of the statements so literally, "handed the fingernails to the cops" Police don't allow this in search warrants. They require you to tell them where things are and they take them. SOP What is much more feasible is that the Egyptian is regurgitating some defense team statement that the lacrosse team "handed over" evidence. Again, lame defense team wordsmithing which is annoying when they say it, more annoying when repeated. "Raped and assualted the girl for 30 minutes". Read - an incident of rape and assualt which combined took roughly 30 minutes. Pretty common for guys at that age to resist the need to ejaculate in their partner. Again, SOP in college - you never know if the gal is really on the pill - do you want to risk child support for 18 years? (Kanye West has some words for us here) For aggrevated rapists, the thrill is not the physical stimulation, it's the emotional gratification of taking something previously withheld by force. Gang rape is about sharing the experience with your buddies - sort of a bonding act of group superiority. Speaking of limp dicks, I think it's time to go visit the local stripper joint and ask for their take.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#58)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:09:49 PM EST
    With the rigged identification process he was shooting fish in a barrel and it looks like she still missed the barrel. Not good.
    I wouldn't say she missed the barrel Bob, I'd say she got damn lucky she picked the one guy with probable dna on her nail.

    Teresa, Yes, I think the 30-minute rape is out too. That could be another embellishment of AV's story, even if a rape occurred. I mentioned this before, but if the AV is claiming rape and the SANE nurse examines her, the nurse must have to ask her if she had any other sex partners that evening prior to the rape. If the nurse didn't, or if the AV lied or misled her, that means that any vaginal injuries (or anal injuries, for that matter) that may have happened during sex with a boyfriend or customer earlier in the evening and any semen collected would necessarily be reported as evidence consistent with a rape having occurred. If there is no DNA connecting Finnerty or Seligmann to having sex with her, what do we have for a case? No really, Teresa, I'm asking you: What do we have for a case? I want your respected opinion here.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#60)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:16:03 PM EST
    Why did they refuse again to release the results? They can easily black out the names. That excuse sounds lame to me. If what they say is true though, this case will never make it in court. It probably wouldn't anyway, but even if she was raped, now they can point the finger elsewhere which would give reasonable doubt. Why did they say yesterday the fingernails in the trash were unused and now we know at least that one wasn't? I'm not 100% sure of anything until I know this. Also, Cheshire said it would be "stunning" if there was no DNA after being in the trash. Why then wasn't there DNA matches to several players?

    az, As far as handling the fingernails, SOP is for the police to collect them. There's an SOP for identifications, too, and the Durham police seemed to have strayed from that. If the fingernails are in the garbage and the AV didn't put them there herself someone else did. Possible contamination there. That doesn't preclude someone from coming down the next morning, picking up a fingernail and saying, "Yech! what's this?" More contamination. Maybe a couple of the guys passed it back and forth during breakfast, stuck it up their noses, played tiddly winks with them. If the DNA matches someone in the house, there's a distince probability of his DNA being on it. I'll wait for Lora to figure out the odds on it, but I'm not ready to send three guys to prison yet.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#62)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:23:56 PM EST
    Bob, heehee, I'm not a gambler, sorry! (I do tutor elementary statistics, though ;-) I don't know when during the alleged assault she was punched and kicked, but that might have slowed her down, kept her from struggling at that point. How about this possibility? I'm wondering if the alleged attackers may have had consensual sex in mind, maybe even figuring she owed them for not dancing much, but she may have objected and then they just went ahead anyway. This could explain having condoms handy. Maybe she even cooperated with oral sex, thinking that would be it and she could go. Without more details of the attack it is hard to figure out the logistics.

    Didn't say anything about a fourth person touching/choking/raping the AV simultaneously. She's only got 3 orifices for gratification Re-read my post... I speculated on possible positions...and that Reade could have taken his turn and left.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#64)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:25:31 PM EST
    No really, Teresa, I'm asking you: What do we have for a case? I want your respected opinion here.
    Even before today this case would never make it past a jury in my opinion. I have a question about the male "material" that was found on her that I wish we knew. I read somewhere that sperm leaves DNA for up to 72 hours. If the amount was so small to not even show up on the state lab tests, I would guess it is a couple of days old. If she has major injuries and not just minor swelling, would a SANE nurse be able to tell the difference? Those are questions I would have if I were on a jury. How serious and how old or new are these injuries? I think the DA needs to do some serious leaking about his evidence if he plans on indicting another player.

    Earlier today I was questioning how the AV and three young men could all fit in one bathroom, even if nothing were going on. I think Seligman and Finnerty are both 6'0 plus and close to 200 lbs, and if the other player were even close to their size . . . consider the logistics for what was alleged to have happened to be physical possible. I looked up the 610 E. Buchanan Blvd. house: 1470 sq ft, two bedroom/two bath, built in 1910. Believe me, houses that small and that old do NOT have large bathrooms, if the 2000 sq ft/1920s built house was any example. I am picturing my bathroom back then, and thinking it would take 30 minutes to figure out how to do that consensually. And according to her statement from the search warrant, she said that it was not a serial type situation: not one or two men in with her, then one leaves and another returns to take his place. She said all three of the players were there at the same time, if I recall correctly. And if the outside of the house is any indication, I don't think there was a master bath hidden inside.

    Maybe I'm dumb, but if I were a lacrosse member and helped the AV when she was stumbling off her single shoe and got skin on a false nail and if she could pick three team members out of 46 of a hat, wouldn't she have a one in 15 chance of picking me? Or if she ID'ed three people in the lineup out of thin air and one has "innocent non rape-connected DNA", she'd be right once in fifteen times.

    Here's a thought regarding a third indictment Monday: If there is nothing to link Seligmann or Finnerty to a rape, and if Seligmann's alibi is as good as it seems, if the semen found belongs to her boyfriend, wouldn't that put the kabosh on the third indictment? Nifong would be in a position to know all of the above. If so much about her story is really falling apart, proceeding with an indictment of a third person would really smack of some kind of prosecutorial malfeasance.

    SuddenImpact, When I said a fourth person, I was talking about the man who was supposed to be holding her while the other two raped her. That's really crowded. Not impossible, but it seems really hard if she's on the floor. That's all. Let me sleep on it.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#69)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:43:28 PM EST
    Nifong would be in a position to know all of the above. If so much about her story is really falling apart, proceeding with an indictment of a third person would really smack of some kind of prosecutorial malfeasance.
    If he does indict someone he must have some evidence we don't know about. The News & Observer is trying to get a comment from him. Sharon, in a two bedroom house that old, there must have been some remodeling to build a second bathroom. Would any small house that old have two originally?

    Another possibility is a third indictment might speak to the strength of the evidence the prosecutor has. No one has seen the pictures from the medical exam. No one has heard what the captains claimed during their interviews. No one knows if there is an extremely cooperative witness. I'm not suggesting that this is likely, only that it's a realistic possibility.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#71)
    by weezie on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:48:14 PM EST
    Any theories as to why Nifong's office would leak a "sure" match with a third player, days in advance of the report being released, when he must have also known that her boyfriend/pimp/consultant's DNA was also found in her body? What possible advantage could he have been looking for? Didn't her family say he had met with them and promised good news in the forthcoming results? I really think we are all in a Twilight Zone episode.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#72)
    by weezie on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:55:28 PM EST
    What is the point of indicting a ham sammich if everyone is going to laugh and point at you? Do DAs get extra pay bonuses for indictments? Tt's time for Nifong to set that crack pipe down.

    Orinoco, does FA = AV?

    Orinoco, I'll have to watch the press conference later. The Giants are on. Bonds was intentionally walked in the 1st. Wasn't one of the leaks about a mystery witness?

    Weezie: Indeed - this is well beyond the Twilight Zone. While we are all trying to infer the rationale(s) for the actions taking by the DA from a limited set of incomplete data, it does appear that he acted prematurely. If someone raped the AV - they should go to jail. And, to that extent, I'm glad Nifong "went to bat" for her. But, his M-O seems to be ready, shoot, aim. For example, during the line-up, the AV stated the Finnerty used his penis to have vaginal and anal sex with her. It would seem that the next question that the investigator should have asked was, "did he wear a condom?" I could understand that she might say that she couldn't tell....fine. But, the question was never asked and clearly, Nifong expected the first-round of DNA results to conclusively ID someone. When this didn't happen - he then said the assailant(s) may have used a condom. He may be right, but her credibility was hurt because everyone expected the DNA to show something. Now, we have gone through two rounds of DNA testing, and (per the defense attorneys), we have no matches to Seligmann and Finnerty, and a partial match to someone who lives in the house (who may not match the description given by the AV in the line-up (no mustache)). Worse still, we have semen DNA from someone else - which indicates that she had sex with someone else - which will cause doubt about the injuries she suffered (especially if the defense has photos of injuries). Gee - no fiction writer could ever sell this novel. But, I guess we will have to wait for tomorrow's headlines, since there is bound to be another twist somewhere - maybe the NSA has a recording of Seligmann's phone calls!

    If there were seven nails in the bathroom, would that go to the story that the AV (I'm still using the term at least until the indictments are dropped) was in the bathroom doing her nails? It's my understanding that the money was still in the bathroom. Is that true? What prevented her from going back into the bathroom to get the money?

    Orinoco, Nifong may have been right. The DNA evidence very well may exonerate the innocent. Just not the way he thought it would.

    I see SharonInJax is back, so before this case gets completely solved I wanted to post this:
    Posted by SharonInJax May 12, 2006 11:21 AM
    By the way, it bothers me that the search warrant affidavit misstates facts that the Durham police should have known by then: the AV did NOT report a rape, much less the details thereof, in the 911 call from the Kroger, as stated in the affidavit. According to the Durham City Manager, she did not give details until a day or so later. I suppose it is a small matter, but as I said, it bothers me.
    Yes, SharonInJax, it is beginning to bother me too. At about 1:30 AM the police arrive at Krogers and transport a "passed out drunk" female passenger to the equivalent of the city jail drunk tank. At some point she changes from being "intoxicated in public" to "possible rape victim." By around 2:30 AM she has been transported to the Duke University Medical Center as an AV in a suspected rate case. After three hours of tests and evaluations she is then released. 1) How was she transported from the drunk tank to the Duke Medical Center? Was it in an ambulance, a police squad car, in the car of the person who first dropped her off at the party who may also be her boyfriend? Was she coherent enough to talk during that ride? Did she discuss the alleged rape with someone else before she arrived at the Duke Medical Center? While at the Duke Medical Center, how specific was she in her details of the alleged rape? 2) If she was so hysterical, screaming and crying, why was she not kept for observation for her own safety? Why was she simply released after only about three hours? And into who's custody was she released? 3) When she was released from the Duke Medical Center about three hours later, where did she go? Did she go straight home? Was she driven to a boyfriend's house? Who drove her there? Was she driving her own car later the same day as the alleged rape? Did she talk to a boyfriend or some other personal friends about the alleged rape? Did she work out more of the details? Was she coached by anyone on how to handle any of her upcoming statements? 4) Almost 30 hours after the alleged rape occurs she finally makes a detailed statement to the police about the incident. By this time, how many of these details has she already rehearsed in conversations she has had with someone else before she makes her official statement? And in the end, just how detailed is her final statement? I think the answer to a lot of these questions is, "We don't know." And maybe those are small matters. But as you said, it is starting to bother me too.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#79)
    by Teresa on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:14:31 PM EST
    Was there any mention of the pubic hair? I guess it could belong to the boyfriend/whoever but I didn't hear anything about it.

    SLOphoto, I talked about the delay between her hospital examination and her statement. Police have people on their staffs especially trained to take rape assault statements. If they've got a victim at a hospital, they've got to send someone there to get that statement. If she refused to give a statement then, that should have been a clue that something was wrong. If she continued to refuse to give a statement for another day you've got problems.

    Bob In Pacifica
    If she continued to refuse to give a statement for another day you've got problems.
    I thought so. Thanks.

    Pat posted:
    For example, during the line-up, the AV stated the Finnerty used his penis to have vaginal and anal sex with her. It would seem that the next question that the investigator should have asked was, "did he wear a condom?"
    It would seem so, but no he did not ask her that. However if you have not seen the transcript, I don't think you would believe what he DID ask her.
    Bob posted:
    Police have people on their staffs especially trained to take rape assault statements.
    I would hope so, but do you mean trained people like this? IMAGE 40 (Collin Finnerty) Sgt: So that is the gentleman who put his penis in your anus? The "gentleman" who put his penis in your anus? The meaning of that word seems to have changed since I first learned it.

    The only thing that will keep this case alive is a cooperating witness. Perhaps the DA has one or more of the players indicating that something happened in the bathroom. Other than that, I see no way this case can proceed.

    From the AP tonight: But Stan Goldman, a Loyola Law School professor and former Los Angeles County public defender, said he would be surprised if Nifong went ahead with the case unless "they really have something significant that they are not revealing to us" -- such as a lacrosse player willing to testify he saw a rape. "There has got to be some really good prosecution explanation as to why the DNA evidence does not exist and why someone else's would be there," Goldman said.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#85)
    by Lora on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:47:17 PM EST
    Orinoco refers to the AV as False Accuser. I should then refer to her as "rape victim," if I had as little respect for all the unknowns in this case. But I won't, because I know that there is plenty we don't know, something that Orinoco seems unwilling to admit. I believe the AV was kept for 5 hours at the hospital, not 3. Maybe she calmed down by then. And if you are hysterical, you are not refusing to give a statement, but you may be unable to give a coherent one. And...I have never heard that she refused to give a statement, just that it took that long to get a complete statement from her. That's possible, she could have remembered more details as time went by. Also there is no reason for anyone to interrogate her on details such as condom or no condom during the ID process. This would have been done before. The defense seems all screwed up about the meaning of the DNA. Nifong always held out the possibility that the DNA might not return anything meaningful. He said anyway, you can't base a case on it, you needed other evidence.

    Bob in P. You wrote:
    PB, if the 100% identity leads to a false indictment, that's very problematic, especially for the indictee. She didn't say, "This guy looks like Seligmann." She said she was 100% sure that this guy was the one who forced her to give him oral sex. With the rigged identification process he was shooting fish in a barrel and it looks like she still missed the barrel. Not good.
    Victim: He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me. Sgt: How sure of that are you. Victim: 100% [The victim then went on to describe which assault she was referring to.] Comment: It is very clear to me that what the accuser actually said is not what you attribute to her. She did not say "she was 100% sure that this guy was the one who forced her to give him oral sex." That's just something you attribute to her. Errantly.

    Bob in Pacifica: The Raleigh News & Observer had an article that included comments from the City Manager, (who I think in the Durham government is somehow responsible for the police department,) the context being his explanation for why it took so long to obtain and execute a search warrant (I tried to find the article again, but couldn't, this is my best recollection) on the house. He said they couldn't move any faster because it was 31 hours before the AV was able to give them details about what happened. If I can find the article again I'll post a link. If accurate, the length of that delay is another part of the case against the Duke players that bothers me, not because I think it was due to some nefarious scheme by the AV, but more because I don't understand it: a woman may hesitate before filing a rape charge because she knows and fears what prosecuting the case will involve. But once the charge is made, wouldn't she be ready to move forward? At least far enough to tell the police what to look for, and where to look, with a search warrant? Wouldn't the police have known that the longer the delay, the better chance that evidence would be either lost or contaminated? Nifong seems to have shown more urgency about and enthusiasm for this case than either the AV or the Durham police.

    Re: Duke Lacrosse: Photo Lineup Procedure Transcri (none / 0) (#88)
    by weezie on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:55:58 PM EST
    If the money was still in the bathroom, could FA have planted/hidden it there to bolster her accusation? Can't imagine three guys cleaning up, picking up gross plastic fingernails and tossing them into the trash can all the while overlooking $400. Actually, I can't imagine guys cleaning anything up anywhere but play along here.

    Chew2: Okay, I'll grant you that it does not say that is when she made the accusation. But won't you admit that it is a misleading way to word it? Why not, after describing the Kroger call say something like, "when this officer interviewed the victim on March __, 2006, at ______ o'clock"? Picky, I know, but I think the vast majority of people reading that affidavit would think it meant what I did.

    SharonInJax, Thanks for the reference to the article. The rape was reported that night. The AV's story was a day late. I don't think it's inconceivable that the AV had a blackout and really didn't know what happened. She woke up in the drunk tank with bruises and tried to piece together what had happened while she was away. If she had been gangraped when she was 14, it's not out of the question she had some kind of flashback to it.

    SharonInJax, There are a lot of official documents that are badly written. Here we are, two months after the night, and we are guessing about all sorts of times, etc. I said a few days back that they should send all the police to night school to improve their writing, but now I think there's an intentional vagueness to all this.

    Quite plausible, and possible, Bob. And if the DNA wasn't from her boyfriend, if it were from an earlier engagement/escort that evening, she might have had some bruises and some more bad memories she would like to forget. She may just have been caught up in more pain than I can imagine. Pure, or impure, speculation, I know, but it drives me crazy not knowing what really happened that night. Drives me even crazier knowing that we may never know.

    Actually, I can't imagine guys cleaning anything up anywhere but play along here.
    Innocence demonstrated by virtue of sloth.

    PB, Let's keep it simple here. Did she identify Seligmann or didn't she? Because if she didn't identify him, she sure fooled Nifong. Are you saying this man was indicted even though she didn't identify him, or are you saying that 100% means that Seligmann's picture looks 100% like the guy, or that she's 100% sure that Seligmann only looks "like" the guy? So I'm 100% sure I look "like" Colonel Sanders because I have two eyes, a nose and a mouth? The woman was sitting there for the purpose of identifying men who raped her. You're saying that she didn't understand that? So she either identified Seligmann as the man who forced her to perform oral sex or she didn't. Which is it?

    From ESPN:
    Cheshire said the testing did find some genetic material from several people on a plastic fingernail found in a bathroom trash can of the house where the team held the March 13 party. He said some of that material had the "same characteristics" -- a link short of a conclusive match -- to some of the players, but not the two who have been charged with rape, kidnapping and sexual assault.
    The "news" here is that more than one player's DNA has apparently been inconclusively linked to the accuser's fingernail. Obviously that is something the defense has an interest in underplaying. But anybody who is honest has understood since the very first reading of the search warrant that the material under the fingernails is really the hot stuff. Modelers with expert witness credentials willing support the defense attorneys position on how the players dna got on the accuser's fingernail would be wise to raise their rates tonight and send out their resumes. The Duke-oisee will pay whatever is necessary for a good storyteller at this juncture.

    PB, who put the fingernails in the garbage? Did they wear sterilized gloves? I think the news here is that someone else's semen was in her. Not the defendants', not any of the lacrosse players. Go back to my 9:44 post and see what law professor Stan Goldman says about this.

    Modelers with expert witness credentials willing support the defense attorneys position on how the players dna got on the accuser's fingernail would be wise to raise their rates tonight and send out their resumes.
    There's nothing in any report that suggests that "the players dna got on the accuser's fingernail"--the only conclusive match is to a man not on the team who had sex with the accuser. Whiler Nifong will no doubt continue his judicial Ahab in search of the great white whale, it's hard to see how a judge could let stand any charges given that the only evidence of sex came with someone never investigated by the police. Moreover, we now know for sure that the DNA of neither Seligmann nor Finnerty was found from the rape kit evidence or the fingernails. So what will Nifong do now--drop the indictments against them and seek indictments against players to whom DNA material had the 'same characteristics' -- a link short of a conclusive match"? This is why Nifong might have been better served by not indicting anyone until all the DNA evidence came in. But that, of course, would have required him to wait until after the primary.

    Without an eyewitness this case is legally over. Whether a rape occurred or not, there is