Yesterday, I discussed again the problem of Netroots focus and the deterioration into being concerned only with electoral politics and not enough with issues. In the dailykos diaries, Eugene writes a good piece discussing the dilemma. But I was struck by this comment from Daily Kos Contributing Editor Meteor Blades:

I think one aspect of the disconnect is not knowing how to exert whatever clout we have as effectively in the majority as in opposition. And this will, I believe, become more obvious, and perhaps worse if and when a Dem wins the White House. The key, in my view, is for us to act as a perpetual opposition, within the party as well as a scourge against the Republicans.

This is where Markos and I diverge. He has always said ours isn't an ideological fight, but rather an effort to install Democrats who themselves fight. In truth, it is an ideological battle, as the FISA vote and the discussion around Obama's foreign policy speech and statements have proved, just to point out two examples of many.

I have always believed, and will continue to believe, that the ideological fight must run in tandem with the fight to elected the best possible candidates to wield electoral power, while recognizing that those best will be hampered by "establishment values" of the party in which most of them reside - define those values how you will. For me, however, the real fight, the long-term fight, the paradigm-shifting fight, lies outside party politics.

This is a great comment but I disagree with Meteor Blades' conclusion that the fight lies outside party politics. I think it lies in concentrating on the issues but also concentrating on INTRA-party politics and primaries. I'll explain on the flip.

TPM has the moment that is getting the most coverage from the YKos Presidential Forum.

Personally, I am skeptical about how important this issue is. I have been hearing about this stuff forever. But an entertaining exchange.

Update [2007-8-5 1:16:23 by Big Tent Democrat]: I do want to underscore a point I made in the Live Blog of the forum, having Matt Bai moderate was a grievous mistake. As Jane Hamsher states, and as a review of the forum and the coverage indicates, Bai's ego overran the forum and he clearly decided it would be the Matt Bai Forum, not the YKos Forum. The forum was pedestrianly okay, I thought the opening questions by mcjoan were excellent, but it was not a Blogger Presidential Forum imo.

I'm going to bed. What a depressing day.

This is an Open Thread.

House Dem Hall of Shame on the flip.

Update [2007-8-4 22:2:7 by Big Tent Democrat]: It passes. At least 43 Dems voted in favor. The list of shame will be posted here shortly. The capitulation is complete.

On C-Span.

Intelligence Chairman Reyes is giving a pathetic speech to support the bill.

Republican argument? President Bush wants it. And the kicker, the Repoublican argues that EVEN THOUGH the Dems are capitulating today, they still are emboldening the terrorisits because they did not immediately cave in. Dems will never learn. Idiots.

The Capitulation enters its final stage.

Live blogging on the flip. It is only a 30 minute debate. The House adopted a special suspension for this with only a simple majority needed to pass the bill, whereas the Dem bill required 2/3 passage. A complete capitulation.

Jim Webb likes to project "toughness." But when it came to FISA, he cowered before Bush. Here is his "explanation":

Yesterday I supported two measures to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. These measures were considered against the backdrop of heightened concerns from our nation's intelligence community abut the threat of international terrorism. The ramifications of the two amendments before us last night were not political. Instead they related to the urgent demands of national security. I chose to heed those warnings. We now have six months to work in earnest to bring full accountability to the process. This distinction and the threats to national security were stated clearly by Admiral McConnell as well as four of the eight Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. These members, Senators Feinstein, Mikulski, Bayh, and Bill Nelson, have extensive experience on intelligence matters and are respected champions of civil rights and liberties. They chose to give significant weight and deference to the intelligence community on FISA reform, and so did I.

The Rockefeller bill took care of the problem. What Webb is saying is he voted for the MCConnell bill because Bush threatened to veto the Dem bill. In short, Webb cowered before Bush's veto threat. Some tough guy. Showing the way to capitulation to Bush.

On this weekend of blogospheric celebration, someone has to rain on the parade. And that someone is me. One of our favorites, Avedon, links to LarryE lamenting the state of the anti-war movement:

the real reason that the antiwar movement seems unable to stop the war despite having the support of perhaps two-thirds of the public is that too much of that "movement" to too god damned concerned with its own image. Too god damned concerned with being "respectable," with being seen as "serious," as truly "pro-American." Too god damned concerned with politics over praxis, with positioning over protest. As a result, it has surrendered tactical decisions to the leadership of the Democratic Party and moral leadership to a crew of inside-the-Beltway wannabes both on- and offline who have mocked demonstrations and made Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi the arbiters of the acceptable limits of debate. And that has been a horrendous blunder, both tactically and ethically, with disastrous consequences for Americans and even more - far more - for Iraqis.

I think Larry is right about the anti-war Netroots failing miserably in 2007 but I think he is wrong on the why it is failing. I will explain my thinking on the flip.

NYTimes:

They have got us in a vise,” Representative Louise M. Slaughter, Democrat of New York and chairwoman of the Rules Committee, said as she left a Saturday afternoon meeting where senior Democrats were debating how to handle the issue in the final hours before recess.

If there is one thing Bush knows how to do well it is how to intimidate the useless Democrats in Congress. I have never ever seen a more pathetic group of negotiators in my life.

Congresswoman Slaughter, have you ever thought of actually just demonstrating some public resolve? Even if you plan to cave in later, do you think you MIGHT act as if you might stand up to Bush? He might give you a concession once in a while. Apparently getting pre-punked, as Sen. Obama was on the Iraq Supplemental (remember the not playing chicken remark?), is the SOP for Dems.

This quote is as pathetic and incompetent a piece of bargaining that I have ever seen.

Let's face it - Congressional Democrats stink at politics and stink at political bargaining. Utterly incompetent.

Final Update: The debate was a big coup for Yearly Kos and the blogosphere. It had buzz and electricity and while the questions were not great and Matt Bai was an odd choice for moderator, it was well worth the time and effort to attend. There was a sense of comraderie and unity in the hall -- an acknowledgment that we are all in this together and working for the same thing, to bring an end to the abuses of the Bush Administration -- that transcended individual candidate preferences.

****

Combining Big Tent's thread and mine. Big Tent said:

Gina Cooper, YKOs Director introduces Matt Bai of the NYTimes who apparently is moderating the forum. Extremely strange to me that a blogger conference has a NYTimes reporter moderating the event. But whatever.

Joan McCarter, Daily Kos Contributing Editor, and good friend of Talk Left will be the lead questioner apparently. Dr. Jeff Feldman, a friend of mine, will be fielding questions from the audience. It is being live streamed here.

(TalkLeft live blogging from the debate hall below)

McJoan: To Bill Richardson: He has said his model Supreme Court Justice would be Justice White. Would he reconsider?

"I screwed up on that." His court would have diversity and legal scholars. He would ask, "Do you believe Roe v. Wade is settled civil rights and privacy law? If yes, he might attend them.

Update: (Big Tent, please chime in) Obama is up now. He is against Bush's tax cuts. Our biggest fiscal problem is Medicare and Medicaid. We are spending too much on the war.

More...

I previously discussed Barack Obama's answer on the use of nukes and this important piece of information comes to us via Kevin Drum, the transcript of the exchange:

AP: Sir, with regard to terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan ...

OBAMA: Yeah.

AP: Is there any circumstances where you'd be prepared or willing to use nuclear weapons to defeat terrorism and Osama bin Laden?

OBAMA: No, I'm not, uh, there has been no discussion of using nuclear weapons and that's not a hypothetical that I'm going to discuss.

AP: Not even tactical?

OBAMA: No. I think it would be a profound mistake for us to use nuclear weapons in any circumstance. Uh, if involving you know, civilians... Let me scratch all that. There's been no discussion of nuclear weapons. That's not on the table so...

Emphasis supplied to the RIGHT ANSWER from Obama and the exact same answer given by Hillary Clinton. This is exactly what Obama should have said. Unfortunately, he did not stop there. His failure to adhere to his initial statement was his error. I wonder if now people like Matt Yglesias will retract their attacks on Hillary Clinton's response to this. As is apparent, Obama himself realized he made a mistake, "scratch all that." I hope they will "scratch all that" nonsense they wrote in criticism of Clinton on this subject.

I'm in the front row of a very packed room waiting for Hillary Clinton to arrive. She will speak at a breakout session here at noon.

Only problem for live-blogging is my battery is very low, so I won't be able to update until it's over and I get back to an electrical outlet.

If you're watching a streaming version, feel free to use the comments here to keep everyone updated.

Really big buzz in the room, lots of excitement. The entire Yearly Kos event seems to have come alive today.

More later...

The Senate's pathetic performance last night really did not come as a surprise. It has proven time and time again to be filled with Democratic members who talk tough and then capitulate at the first resistance (Senator James Webb comes to mind as possibly the biggest tough guy phony in that body.) Unlike many folks, I know that Leader Reid has no hand to play in the Senate.

To me the only hope for resolve against Bush comes in the House. But there is little evidence for my hope. Consider this from today's Times story on the FISA Capitulation:

The House is expected to take up the White House-backed measure on Saturday morning before going into its summer recess. Democratic leaders acknowledged that the bill would probably pass.

The question is why? Why can not Democrats in the House just say "Mr. President, we have offered you a bill that addresses the problem." Sign that bill. This is, of course, a reprise of the Iraq Supplemental Capitulaton.

More.

The Dem House version failed to get 2/3 votes needed, under the special rule to provide for immediate consideration. The Senate completely caved in to Bush and passed the McConnell-Bond-Bush version with the requisite 60 vote total. The Dem version, the Levin-Rockefeller bill, is presently in the process of failing to get the requisite 60 vote for passage.

What does it mean? That the just passed Senate GOP version will be offered in the House tomorrow and pass and the President will sign it. It is amazing how a President with a 25% approval can roll this Congress so easily. Pathetic.

Now guess what? This bill will sunset in 6 months. We'll be in an election year. Are you confident that these spineless Congresspersons and Senators will have more guts then? Me neither.

This ranks with the torture approving bill passed with the support of many Dem congresspersons prior to the 2006 election. Later we will provide the names of all the Dem Senators whose cowardice allowed this to happen.

No roll call vote available. On the flip I will list the ones I heard.