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The FISA Upshot

The Dem House version failed to get 2/3 votes needed, under the special rule to provide for immediate consideration. The Senate completely caved in to Bush and passed the McConnell-Bond-Bush version with the requisite 60 vote total. The Dem version, the Levin-Rockefeller bill, is presently in the process of failing to get the requisite 60 vote for passage.

What does it mean? That the just passed Senate GOP version will be offered in the House tomorrow and pass and the President will sign it. It is amazing how a President with a 25% approval can roll this Congress so easily. Pathetic.

Now guess what? This bill will sunset in 6 months. We'll be in an election year. Are you confident that these spineless Congresspersons and Senators will have more guts then? Me neither.

This ranks with the torture approving bill passed with the support of many Dem congresspersons prior to the 2006 election. Later we will provide the names of all the Dem Senators whose cowardice allowed this to happen.

No roll call vote available. On the flip I will list the ones I heard.

This is my it best recollection:

Feinstein, Salazar, Mikulski, Bill Nelson, Ben Nelson, Daniel Inouye, Landrieu, Lieberman, Conrad, Casey, Lincoln, Pryor, Klobuchar, Webb, McCaskill and Carper.

16 14 (probably 15 as I imagine Ben Nelson did too) from the Dem Caucus which means only 464 (probably 45) Republicans voted for it.

< FISA Amendment Update | FISA: The Power of Not Passing A Bill >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Start with my senator: Spineless Bill Nelson (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 08:58:56 PM EST


    And then mine (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:00:47 PM EST
    Ken "Nighthorse" Salazar.

    Parent
    Salazar is entirely Useless! (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Cugel on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:41:53 PM EST
    I sent him this e-mail yesterday, not that he's paying any attention to what the people think:

    Dear Senator Salazar:

    Currently the President is demanding that Congress pass "FISA Modernization." He has even threatened to  call Congress back into session to force you to give him the bill he wants if Congress adjourns without passing a bill he won't veto.

    This is just flat outrageous! I've been practicing law now for 17 years in state and federal courts here in Denver and frankly I don't even know why we need an FISA court to begin with. It seems to me that the regular federal district courts could handle requests for warrantless wiretaps or other surveillance by the government. Every federal district court judge I have come in contact with has the integrity to handle such requests just as normal wiretap requests are handled by our federal courts, and the hearings could be heard in closed court to protect national security where necessary.

    Clearly the FISA court was originally set up to provide a rubber-stamp approval for surveillance requests, and it has lived up to it's billing. Until recently, reports in the press have indicated that the FISA court has never turned down a request for surveillance. But, apparently even this court has had enough of the arrogant Bush administration flouting of our laws and constitution and has stated in a secret opinion that the practices of the Bush administration are illegal.

    Specifically, according to the LA Times, "One official said the issue centered on a ruling in which a FISA court judge rejected a government application for a "basket warrant" -- a term that refers to court approval for surveillance activity encompassing multiple targets, rather than warrants issued on a case-by-case basis for surveillance of specific terrorism suspects."

    Why does the administration NEED basket warrants? Why isn't the normal case by case approach good enough? Answer: as always they want to avoid even cursory oversight by any outside party!

    In typical Bush fashion, if the courts say that something that the administration is doing is illegal, instead of changing their practices, they rush to Congress to change the law so that it's now legal, and they scream "national security" holding it over the heads of the Congressmen like some sort of club.

    Well, I worked on your campaign and voted for you because I thought as a former attorney general you would put some badly needed respect for our laws and constitution into Washington. Naturally, I was horrified beyond measure when you voted for the torture bill. Now you have another chance to stand up to the Bush administration and just say "NO!"

    You can't trust Bush and you can't trust anyone in his administration, certainly NOT our criminal, perjuring attorney general Gonzales, who should be disbarred and sent to prison, not given the power to designate surveillance targets!

    Now I learn that the new bill will force telecom and internet companies to give U.S. spy agencies access to telephone calls and emails without court review.

    Why should we accept this?

    American citizens should not be subjected to ANY electronic surveillance for ANY reason without a court warrant! And there's no reason why the government ought to be able to spy on citizens whenever they are designated as "likely to be out of the country."

    Even based on the very limited evidence we now have before us, it's abundantly clear that this program is rife with abuses and violations of law.

    For far too long Congress has run scared from every complaint that they aren't doing "enough" in the "fight on terrorism."

    This entire program needs to be reviewed and standards for warrantless wiretaps and surveillance of Americans either at home or abroad needs to be tightened, NOT loosened!

    Certainly, just because Bush sends his official down to Capitol Hill and claims they "need" a bill is NO reason to roll-over and give in.

    Better NO bill than a flawed one. This entire matter needs to be reviewed a considerable length. Congress should certainly not let Bush rush them into hasty action.

    If he follows through on his threat to call Congress back into session you ought to adjourn again and tell him in no uncertain terms that you're not going to be rolled again! Tell him that the answer is "NO, we won't grant any such authority to the attorney general" until his perjuring, lying hack of a current attorney general resigns!

    Then Congress should take up in earnest what additional safe-guards should be written



    Parent
    No surprise here. n/t (none / 0) (#28)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:36:10 PM EST
    No surprise here. n/t (none / 0) (#27)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:35:45 PM EST
    Pathetic (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by BDB on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:11:25 PM EST
    So I guess terrorists don't have to bomb D.C. or otherwise violently attack the United States to get it to surrender our freedoms, our elected officials will give it up at the first sign of "chatter."  What others died for, these folks won't even risk re-election for.  Truly pathetic.

    But, But (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:22:36 PM EST
    Word was out.  Hadn't you heard? We were facing imminent attack during Congress' recess. The small circle around Bush had proof and it was very very secret. Way to secret to divulge to Congress. The only way to stop the attack was to let the pro's do whatever they needed to stop the evil terrorists: ergo the President's FISA bill.

    Works every time.

    Parent

    Feinstein (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by janinsanfran on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:27:58 PM EST
    When push comes to shove, my Senator never met an authoritarian measure she didn't like. Same when she was mayor.

    No surprise here either. n/t (none / 0) (#29)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:37:00 PM EST
    Argh (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by andgarden on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:30:15 PM EST
    It occurs to me that this is connected to the other problem you and I have with the Democrats. They refuse to use the "we won't do this" power.

    That is what will happen (5.00 / 4) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:33:23 PM EST
    in the House now.

    As I have always said, I do not expect much from the Senate.

    Tomorrow, when it happens, I blast the House.

    Parent

    My prediction: (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by andgarden on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:38:18 PM EST
    It passes with Republicans and Blue Dogs.

    Parent
    It passes with (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:39:39 PM EST
    300 tomorrow.

    Parent
    Maybe Chris Bowers will try to whip (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:42:48 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    Naw (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:44:29 PM EST
    He's got some inflated poll theory to pitch at YKos.

    Parent
    Thanks for your coverage (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by joejoejoe on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:39:34 PM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    I am so disheartened. (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by DawnG on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:52:50 PM EST
    Worst.president.ever.  Mister 25%.  he barks and everyone jumps.  they are dismantling our country bit by bit and democrats are holding the door open for them.

    WHY???

    Because something scary is supposed to (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 09:58:12 PM EST
    possibly happen while these guys are on break.  There's lots of "chatter" and the FISA courts are backlogged blah blah blah........sorry, I think it's all bunk and it probably is all bunk but will we ever know?

    Parent
    Webb? He voted for this? Way to be a maverick (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by bronte17 on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:12:29 PM EST
    Webb...or NOT.  And that McCaskill is turning out to be one royal WATB.

    Look how she puts an "American" before the "Democratic" in her Wiki profile.  It dilutes the focus on the "Democratic" after her name.  Wonder if any other Dems do this?

    Claire McCaskill (born July 24, 1953) is an American Democratic politician...


    People don't write their own Wikipedia bios (none / 0) (#26)
    by joejoejoe on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:35:38 PM EST
    That's awkward wording but it don't think it can be blamed on McCaskill.

    Parent
    They don't seem to care what people think. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Edger on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:09:52 PM EST
    It is amazing how a President with a 25% approval can roll this Congress so easily. Pathetic.... We'll be in an election year. Are you confident that these spineless Congresspersons and Senators will have more guts then? Me neither.

    They figure people are so afraid of the rethugs that they are dead in the water next year anyway, so the Democrats have no political price to pay next year, or if they do calculate one they figure it's too small to worry about, no?

    Why would they limit any of the presidential power that is going to be handed to them on a platter next year?

    If enough people (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Edger on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:44:08 PM EST
    made it clear to the Democrats that they will not vote Democratic next year or for anyone else, unless they start doing things like ending the Iraq occupation and standing up to Bush over things like this, they might start to think that the rethugs had a chance again, and they might actually grow some guts out of fear...

    It's a pretty big IF.

    Right now all the fear is in the voters.

    The Democrats have no fear.

    It should be the other way around. Who works for who here?

    Parent

    I don't think the fear is with the voters (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:02:49 AM EST
    (except Jim and a few others) the fear is with our leaders. I can't endorse not voting next year. All of the GOP front runners are authoritarians without conscience. It may be hold your nose and vote for the lessor of two weasels time, but not voting isn't going to work.



    Parent

    Ummm... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:07:49 AM EST
    hold your nose and vote for the lessor of two weasels... is voting out of fear.

    I will not do it.

    I have no illusions that in the next year or so enough people will rain letters, phone calls, and shouts at town halls down on  Democratic Congress members and put the fear of god in them telling them that they will not vote unless the start doing what they were elected last year to do... but I will not unless they do.

    And I believe they they will not change unless they are afraid of losing tens of millions of votes.

    This is where the line in the sand is for me.

    I will not allow myself to be placed in the position that giggling fools like ppj are now by having voted for someone who continues Bush/Cheney policies.

    Parent

    There is a difference in voting (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:35:54 AM EST
    out of fear of terrorist and Muslims (see Jim on Muslim extremists about to take over)  and voting out of fear of homegrown authoritarianism.

    That fact that some of these fools can be stampeded into voting for obvious unconstitutioal laws, does not translate to, if in power, they will continue to propose and try to pass unconstitutional laws.

    One fact I do know, is not voting Democratic will ensure contiuation of this obscenity. By all means, however, register your anger. Nelson will be getting an earful on Monday.



    Parent

    Nelson will be getting an earful on Monday. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    Take him for a walk. Out back behind the building.

    Tell him you have some friends you'd like him to meet.

    Make him an offer he can't refuse.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#60)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:10:11 PM EST
    There's bad, and then there's worse. Primaries are where the action has to be to get more progressive Dems. Not voting is not the answer even for a bad Dem - that's just shooting yourself in the foot by handing power over to someone even worse.

    But these Blue Dogs and Bush enablers must be shown up as the sleeper Republicans they are - we really don't have a majority at all.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:13:29 PM EST
    My intent in withholding support is to pressure them into doing what they were elected to do to retain that support.

    Giving them a pass is not the answer.

    Parent

    As if they care (none / 0) (#62)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:26:43 PM EST
    The fewer actual citizens engaged in the political process the freer hand it gives them to do what they want unencumbered. Unless massive numbers of people step outside the two party system it's throwing the little power you do have away.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:36:49 PM EST
    "massive numbers" is what I said above: "I believe they they will not change unless they are afraid of losing tens of millions of votes."

    I also said this is where I draw the line. They lose my support unless they do what they were elected to do.

    If they believe they will have the votes without doing what they were elected to do, and instead keep enabling Bush, then they have no reason to change and there is no effective difference between them and the rethugs.

    I will not, two years down the road, be defending myself for supporting people who enabled Bush when they had the power to stop him.

    Parent

    I also will not ::wait:: (none / 0) (#65)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:03:09 PM EST
    for millions or tens of millions of other people to use the threat of support withdrawal to pressure them before I will do so.

    Waiting for that to happen would mean someone else would have to go first, and would mean that I do not have the courage of my own convictions  but would stand with my finger in the wind...

    No...

    Someone has to go first. If it's me then so be it.

    I've stood alone most of my life.

    There are two taglines on my blog.

    One from Hunter Thompson: "The Edge... There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."

    And one from me: "The opposite of conventional wisdom is the likely truth of most things."


    Parent

    A man's gotta do... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:22:08 PM EST
    But I worry about the amount of bitterness and disillusionment people are expressing so many places now (except where it's suppressed at dk). I try not to contribute to that but sometimes it gets the better of me. If too many people just say f*** it and walk away that doesn't help us in the least either. Work from inside, work from outside - it's treated as an either/or, but it has to be both. Me, I think it's more than a political problem. You know like when people say This isn't a failure of conservatism, this is the natural result of conservatism. I'm starting to see what's happening as the natural end of certain deep aspects of the culture. Where do you go with that? I don't know.

    Parent
    Alien (1.00 / 1) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:37:02 PM EST
    (except where it's suppressed at dk).

    But I thought the Left was the last bastion of free speech!!??

    How can that be??

    Parent

    dkos isn't Left (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 02:08:15 PM EST
    It's a partisan Democratic site and doesn't tolerate support of other parties.

    Parent
    heh (1.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:42:35 PM EST
    And Limbaugh isn't a Rightie.

    Parent
    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:48:15 PM EST
    I'd call him a McCarthyite fascist myself.

    Parent
    Alien (1.00 / 1) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:12:44 PM EST
    Most of the folks here would think you are being too kind...

    But really. Kos is not a Left wing blog??

    LOL

    Parent

    I wouldn't be here if it were (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:50:35 PM EST
    But laugh on you fascist-worshipping ghoul.

    Parent
    Hah (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:57:52 PM EST
    Ghouls for Ghouliani.

    Parent
    Work from inside, work from outside? (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 04:14:50 PM EST
    Well... I think what I am suggesting is doing a bit of both. I think if someone wants support they have to earn support. And that a pitch for it based on only "we are not called republicans - ignore what we do" is not enough.

    Parent
    I also don't think that (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    a third party is needed to be able to pressure the Democrats into doing the right thing, and non of what I've said here  should be construed as advocating for that.

    Parent
    All of the GOP frontrunners (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:28:53 AM EST
    are authoritarians without conscience, yes.

    Read this or George W. Bush will be president the rest of your life

    This is another worth reading: The Bush Veto, the Democrats' Response, and Why Millions Must Break with the Politics of Empire:

    First the big lie. What the Bush Regime portrays as a noble effort to make the world safe from terrorism and bring democracy to the Middle East is actually a vicious war of empire to deepen the U.S. stranglehold on the Middle East and Central Asia --a war that is part of a broader effort to create an unchallenged and unchallengeable imperialist empire.

    This goal is not viewed as capricious or incidental by those in charge--whether Democrats or Republicans--rather it flows from the deepest needs and drives of their system: U.S. hegemony in the Middle East and global dominance is crucial for U.S. capitalism's ongoing functioning and U.S. global power.



    Parent
    I'm laughing and laughing (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:41:42 AM EST
    Seems like the Demos aren't as dumb as the Left thinks they are.

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:33:29 AM EST
    It seems like they are dumber than that.

    Parent
    A better way to look at it than 'spinelessness' (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by chemoelectric on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:56:29 PM EST
    This is co-dependency, therefore it doesn't really matter that much that the Leader is at 25% approval. There is a very, very sick man in the White House, who, if stood up to, would most likely go into a very public and very dangerous temper tantrum. Rather than face up to the need to risk this temper tantrum, the Dems implore the sick man to get some help, and say this is the last straw, but don't follow through, because they are afraid of the temper tantrum. And so on it goes, with the alcoholic sociopath in the White House, and the Capitol Hill 'family' that tiptoes around him.

    And the thing is, nobody has to like the alcoholic sociopath, because it is not the man's popularity that frightens the Dems, but the temper tantrum that would ensue should they truly stop taking the crap.

    I'm starting to think there is something (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:46:38 AM EST
    to this.

    Parent
    That you there Dr. Frist? (none / 0) (#38)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:01:59 AM EST
    Interesting (prophetic?) comment (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:00:23 AM EST
    from William K. Wolfrum today.

    Congress caves on allowing Bush free reign to spy on anyone, anywhere:

    There are men and women of integrity and strength of character in the U.S. Very very few of them, however, lower themselves to enter politics, however.

    And yes, the Bush administration will abuse this power. In fact, they already have for years. All because the Congress allowed the debate to become "Hey, you want us not to listen to terrorist plans?" instead of "Spy when you need to, just let us know about it."
    ...
    Regardless of my feelings toward him, I would never consider comparing George W. Bush to Adolph Hitler, or comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany. I would however compare this Congress to the German congress that voted itself out of existence to hand all power to Hitler and pals.

    When you toss them political softballs, they'll sneak something through. But when true backbone and integrity is needed and strength is requred, they tremble and allow George W. (34%) Bush walk all over them. Make no mistake about it, this U.S. Congress could easily be manipulated into making itself extinct.



    Yep....and he was Billy Wolfrum to me (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:46:00 AM EST
    Got linked to another story of Wolfrums a few months ago, recognized the name, then realized we'd spent a few childhood years together as friends and fellow baseball fanatics in LA.  At eight or nine years old we'd play ball in the street, or against his garage door from sunrise 'til sunset.  Now look at him, down there in South America blogging like a champ.  Small world doesn't even come close.    

    Parent
    No sh*t! (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    Heh! No wonder you say all the subversive things you  say, Dadler. Either he poisoned your mind when you were kids... or it was the other way around! ;-)

    Parent
    Who is there to monitor at the end of the day? (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:00:20 AM EST
    I think that jimakaPPJ's presumption that no one writing here is so interesting that the NSA would spy on them is foolish. It's not a matter of casting aspersions as to whom is unworthy of being spied upon.

    One need only read about what J. Edgar Hoover did with his information back in days where the tools of spying were far less acute to realize the dangers of spying on Americans. Hoover used his files to manipulate politicians. Maybe jimakaPPJ sees Bush, Cheney, Gates and the rest as honest, trustworthy public servants, but I have my doubts. Maybe an even better comparison was how organized crime allegedly used photos of Hoover and Tolson and very young men in order to keep the FBI at bay for decades. In fact, that may be the answer why such a bad piece of law would pass so easily: everyone's compromised.

    Yes, But (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 10:40:57 AM EST
    BushCo has improved on Hoover, Stasi, Goebbles, et al, and added the tried and true mafia method. He has dirt not only on the Dems but on his people. Keeps em good and dishonest.

    Gonzo will make sure that the new FISA method is not wasted.

    Parent

    squeaky (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 11:27:19 AM EST
    I love it when you play the Nazi card. Shows you can't refute my point.

    On a bigger scale, does this mean you are going to quit supporting the Demos?

    Be sure its true when you say I love you
    Its a sin to tell a lie
    Millions of hearts have been broken
    Just because these words were spoken

    I mean, where will you go??


    Parent

    Bob (1.00 / 1) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    Well, I didn't want to say anyone would be, because that would have been bad. So perhaps I should have just left the comment off.

    But having been designated by Molly B as one who is fearful, the devil slipped in and demanded a snarky reply.

    Hoover was, and remains, a bugaboo of the Left. But responsible politicans must balance the concerns of everyone, not just those with a paranoid view of the world.

    Indeed, if you will just remember, it was the FBI's unwillingness to scan the contents of a harddrive, out of concern of violating the firewall put in place by Clinton's DOJ, that was a major contributor to our failure to stop 9/11 before it happened.

    Think about that. What if 9/11 had never happened? How many would still be alive today??

    Parent

    I calls em as I see em & debunking myths (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:05:26 PM EST
    You were the one wailing about
    "radical Moslems who destroy all civil rights in any country/community they gain control of"
    as though a takeover of the US was imminent.

    As for Hoover, do you approve of wiretapping MLK and attempting to blackmail him? Or CointelPro? Or blackmailing of any politican, including Presidents into keeping him head of the FBI? Do you even know what I am talking about?

    The so called fire-wall predated President Clinton:

    In a recent Washington Post editorial, Gorelick wrote the restrictions on intelligence sharing date back to 1978- well before she came to Justice. "I did not invent the 'wall,' " she wrote.

    See also that known left winger and communist, Sen. Slade Gorton (R-WA)

    Additionally, the assertion that the commission failed to report on this program to protect Ms. Gorelick is ridiculous. She had nothing to do with any "wall" between law enforcement and our intelligence agencies. The 1995 Department of Justice guidelines at issue were internal to the Justice Department and were not even sent to any other agency. The guidelines had no effect on the Department of Defense and certainly did not prohibit it from communicating with the FBI, the CIA or anyone else.
        Congress created the walls that were in place before September 11 -- such as the National Security Act's prohibition on U.S. intelligence agency spying on Americans and the Posse Comitatus Act -- that have nothing to do with the Department of Justice memo. The Defense Department's own directives on sharing such information date from the 1980s. It is not clear that those laws would have prohibited sharing information in this instance.
        The fact is that the Justice Department guidelines sought to encourage sharing in a way that was consistent with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, or FISA. FISA enabled the government to conduct surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes under a lesser standard than typical criminal surveillance. To keep this power in check, the courts prohibited the use of intelligence wiretaps unless their "primary purpose" was intelligence gathering rather than criminal prosecution.
        Then-Attorney General John Ashcroft's department reissued and reaffirmed those guidelines in 2001, before September 11.
        Even when the Patriot Act eliminated the "primary purpose" test, it took an appellate court ruling to permit the Justice Department to change those rules.
        So attributing these procedures to Ms. Gorelick is wrong. If the Ashcroft Justice Department couldn't eliminate them with a stroke of a pen, Ms. Gorelick could not have created them with the stroke of a pen, either. (emphasis added)

    What if Bush acted on the Memo Bin Laden Determined to Strike US, instead of looking at the messenger and saying

    "All right. You've covered your a$$, now."?
    Better talking points please!



    Parent

    Molly B (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:18:34 PM EST
    Republicans point to a memo Gorelick wrote as a top official in the Clinton Justice Department, which critics charge put a firewall between law enforcement and intelligence agents and made it harder for them to share information and thwart terrorism.

    That policy remained in place under the Bush administration, until it was changed by the Patriot Act, passed after the 9/11 attacks.

    She wrote the memo. Bush got rid of it. That we know for sure.

    The confidential President's Daily Brief (PDB) for August 6, 2001 contained a two-page section entitled "Bin Ladin....

    In fact, he got information before that and had his NSA take action:

    At the special meeting on July 5 (2001)were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken."

    Link


    Parent

    Reading is fundamental! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:25:22 PM EST
    Go back and read that known leftist, Gorton, again. Z'ounds you can be dense!

    What part about Policy there since the 70's and her memo did not prevent the DOD from talking to DOJ did you not comprehend?

    You never did answer my retort about Bush, the infamous Bin Laden memo and his reponse about CYA. I wouldn't want to talk about it either, if I were you!



    Parent

    Molly's strawman (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:32:46 PM EST
    The hard drive in question was in the possession of the FBI. Who, I believe, is still part of DOJ.

    You never did answer my retort about Bush, the infamous Bin Laden memo and his reponse about CYA. I wouldn't want to talk about it either, if I were you!

    Are you blind??

    The confidential President's Daily Brief (PDB) for August 6, 2001 contained a two-page section entitled "Bin Ladin....

    In fact, he got information before that and had his NSA take action:

    At the special meeting on July 5 (2001)were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken."

    A reasonable person understands that Bush already knew.

    But that doesn't fit your world view, so you don't want to admit it.

    Parent

    Guess you'ld better tar and feather Ashcroft (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:39:18 PM EST
    Again:

    She had nothing to do with any "wall" between law enforcement and our intelligence agencies. The 1995 Department of Justice guidelines at issue were internal to the Justice Department and were not even sent to any other agency. The guidelines had no effect on the Department of Defense and certainly did not prohibit it from communicating with the FBI, the CIA or anyone else. ...

    Then-Attorney General John Ashcroft's department reissued and reaffirmed those guidelines in 2001, before September 11.

    Got the tar and feathers ready?



    Parent

    Molly loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:08:56 PM EST
    The harddrive I wrote about was in the possession of the FBI.

    What do you keep making thinks up that I never said??

    Parent

    More for Molly (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:40:57 PM EST
    Despite her repeated attempts to analyze the computer hard drive, Rowley met with an annoyed reaction and was finally told not to call anymore. The 9/11 Commission would be told that FBI officials feared breaching the 1995 "procedural barrier" that inhibited the sharing of intelligence information and criminal information between the CIA and the FBI. (This "procedural barrier" was later removed by The USA Patriot Act).

    As it happens, Moussaoui's laptop computer was finally deciphered in the months following September 11, 2001. To the shock of FBI investigators, his files disclosed that he had indeed received funding from Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the financial link to the 9/11 Hamburg cell that led the 9/11 attacks. Bin al-Shibh had also been the roommate of another person with links to Islamic terrorist groups in Israel and Germany. That person's name was Mohamed Atta.

    Link

    Since the harddrive was in the hands of the FBI, I have no idea as to why the CIA is brought up. But it is plain to see that the 1995 Firewall had them terrified of doing what was obvious they should do.

    Parent

    FBI reports to the AG (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Molly Bloom on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 11:29:05 AM EST
    If you think the guidelines were a problem, then take it up with Ashcroft, who reissued and reauthorized the guidelines in question before September 11th.

    Parent
    Read it Molly (1.00 / 1) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 10:56:26 AM EST
    Ms. Gorelick, as Deputy AG, wrote a memo in 1995 that added several layers of bricks to the top of the wall separating the FBI's criminal investigators and intelligence gatherers. It says, in part, "...we believe that it is prudent to establish a set of instructions that will clearly separate the counterintelligence investigation from the more limited, but continued, criminal investigations. These procedures, which do beyond what is legally required, will prevent any risk of creating an unwarranted appearance that [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act] is being used to avoid procedural safeguards which would apply in a criminal investigation." Appearances mattered more than allowing the investigators to put the pieces together before 9/11.

    Link

    Facts count.


    Parent

    Bugaboo? (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by tnthorpe on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 12:43:32 PM EST
    The US Government has used its vast capabilities to spy on civil rights advocates, labor leaders, students, feminists, and religious groups from MLK Jr. to the Quakers, all of which is well-documented. These are the sad facts, not a paranoid bugaboo. But of even more concern to me, jimakaPPJ, is the notion that you resolve an intelligence gathering flaw by according new powers to the executive branch. Sure, as technology changes, FISA needs to change, but the 4th Amendment is clear: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The Supreme Court in Johnson v. United States (1948) affirms that "The point of the Fourth Amendment, which often is not grasped by zealous officers, is not that it denies law enforcement the support of the usual inferences which reasonable men draw from evidence. Its protection consists in requiring that those inferences be drawn by a neutral and detached magistrate instead of being judged by the officer engaged in the often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime. Any assumption that evidence sufficient to support a magistrate's disinterested determination to issue a search warrant will justify the officers in making a search without a warrant would reduce the Amendment to a nullity and leave the people's homes secure only in the discretion of police officers.'' (For more go to FindLaw: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/02.html#f90)  Is this AG a "neutral and detached magistrate"? Can any AG be so when they are appointed by and serve at the pleasure of the President? So, we don't need a poorly written FISA expansion that vastly extends power to this or any other administration in a way inimical to the Constitution and the long tradition of American jurisprudence. When the 9/11 Commission called for "unity of effort" in the final section of their report, nowhere did they call for unifying all the functions of government under the executive branch. (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec13.pdf) The FISA bill passed by the Senate is simply poorly thought out and fails to protect the Constitution.

    Parent
    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 01:26:24 PM EST
     
    But of even more concern to me, jimakaPPJ, is the notion that you resolve an intelligence gathering flaw

    Using your logic you would tell us a truck is broken when the fact is the truck driver is not allowed to drive it.

    And we're not talking about searching a home, or a car... we're talking about telephone calls that orginate outside the US to a US number, or vice versa, and calls that merely tandem through the US, both orginating and terminating outside the US.

    All of which are judged to be connected to terrorists.

    Parent

    Read the 4th Amendment please (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by tnthorpe on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:32:34 PM EST
    There is nothing happening in the current so-called "long war" that merits suspension of long-standing civil liberties on the authority of unsupervised members of the executive branch. Absolutely nothing that merits the suspension of the 4th Amendment is occuring now. If technological advances have created a means whereby foreign to foreign communication is routed through American switches, then change the law to accomodate such developments. That's the flaw that needs to be fixed, not removing court supervision of surveilance through the issue of warrants. jimakaPPJ, you fail to recognize that lifting the requirement for a "neutral and detached magistrate" is a serious danger to the country, and that no AG could be or has previously been held to be such by any American court. The final sentence of your response is the crucial one, and the question is judged by whom? Only a "neutral and detached magistrate" meets Constitutional criteria, anything else is simply wrong.

    Parent
    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:25:54 PM EST
    First, you have exactly no information as to what is, or is not happening. And neither do I. But I am willing to admit that and not use false claims.

    FISA has been examined several times, and this is what is the result:

    John Schmidt, associate attorney general of the United States in the Clinton administration, superbly explains why the NSA intercept program is legal under all authorities and precedents:

     "President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.
    In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

    Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant."

    Schmidt quotes the same language from the 2002 decision of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review that we have cited repeatedly:

    "the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."

    Link

    Now I realize the above is disappointing to you, but it is factual. Perhaps understanding that will help you understand that, after milking all political advanatge they could for their base, they gave up and did the legal thing.

    And I again ask you why you think a call that originates and terminates outside the US should have any protection?? Do you even understand a tandem switch and what I am talking about??


    Parent

    At the end of the day (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 09:00:49 AM EST
    The Demos finally remembered that the polls were in favor of warrantless tapping when it was carefully explained that the taps were on calls from suspected terrorists aoutside the US to persons inside the US and vice versa.

    And no one could ever explain why a call that originates outside the US, tandems through a switch inside the US and terminates outside the US should have the same rights as purely domestic calls.

    Your fears, since you all seem so busy talking about fear, is that the evileeeeeee Bush will eavedrop on your conversation. Take heart. That hasn't been proven, and speaking frankly, I doubt any of you are of any interest.


    You're probably right (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 03:58:49 PM EST
    I consider you an authority on what isn't of any interest.  Did you happen to catch Wes Clark's speech at YearlyKos.  While doing dishes last night I realized that Wes Clark gave a complete and fully detailed example of how Iran is completely under our thumb militarily.  I'll see if I can find a youtube link.  I know, I know, I only offered an analysis from a bunch of silly barely field grade officers but this one comes from a past Supreme Allied Commander.  You'll probably think even less of his assessment.

    Parent
    Heh (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 08:07:10 PM EST
    All of TL is devoted to the FISA and it is of no interest? Does that also apply to your comments.

    And somehow I don't remember that assessment you gave... if you are trying to bring back my comments re whar might happen during our retreat from Iraq, I seem to remember you were incapable of quoting me correctly.

    As for Clark, he gave up being a General and started being a politican years ago.

    Parent

    And of course you the fabulous and (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    mighty ppj can make a much more accurate, unbiased and studied estimate of our military strength when compromised by an Iranian assault than that pathetic politician in General's clothing calling itself Wes Clark.  The minute Wes Clark became a politician his wife ran over to him in his lazyboy and sucked all of his brains right out of his right ear with a Dysan.  Just figure don't it?

    Parent
    Tracy - No No (1.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 05, 2007 at 08:24:56 PM EST
    Uh, please don't mix ice cream and salsa.

    My comments were exclusive.

    Ex-Gen Clark is now a politican and as such is likely to tell us what he thinks we want to hear.

    See the Demos latest debacle over FISA for a better understanding

    The other comment was about our surrender withdrawal, and how it could easily become a disaster.

    Clark didn't comment on that.

    Of course if you called him and got a response, then I am truly impressed.

    Parent

    Clark commented on our (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 06, 2007 at 10:51:02 AM EST
    military strength if confronted by Iran.  In your scenario we ended up having to nuke Iran.  Your scenario is so full of your own imagination it is pathetic.  Your scenario of how we would withdraw from Iraq states clearly that it is highly unlikely you have any real military experience at all, particularly Navy experience because you have no idea what sort of firepower sits on an American aircraft carrier. Stop acting like a person couldn't ask General Clark a question and get an answer from him.  I have asked him questions when he was live blogging and he even answered, AMAZING.  I'm sure that if I really needed to ask him another question I could.  I think what I dislike most about wingnuts is the idol worship they insist on.

    Parent
    They've been prepped (none / 0) (#15)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:07:39 PM EST
    by those warnings that there could be a terrorist attack on DC between now and Sept. 11. How could they act otherwise? If anything happens the blame would be placed squarely on the Dems, leading to a loss in '08. At least this is up for review in 6 months. I'm as hard on them as anyone here, but I can't see how they have anything but a losing hand on this, with a WH this willing to drive events at this level of unscrupulousness. It makes me shudder though to think how they're going to handle all the rest of the surprises that will be sprung on them over the next year and a half.

    At least - considering it's a Friday evening - it's not escaping coverage in the media.

    Thanks to all for the liveblogging.

    You gotta be kidding me (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:11:10 PM EST
    And you are an impeachment proponent?

    Your comment makes no sense.

    The Levin bill could have been offered.

    Parent

    I expect nothing of them anymore (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:20:54 PM EST
    They're utterly cowed.

    They're the perfect response to a populace that's willing to trade its freedoms for safety. They're afraid to go against Bush at 25% because that's what their constituents evidently expect of them. I can't conclude anything else at this point.

    Impeachment - ha. Don't make me laugh.

    Parent

    They're afraid........sadly (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:26:42 PM EST
    Waiting for the Dems... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 07:37:07 AM EST
    ...is on the precipice of becoming, BTD, as absurd as your oft mentioned point about the absurdity of Dems waiting for those Republican defectors to end the war.  Hell, my senator Not-So-Feinstein just gave another nutcase Bush judge a free pass in confirmation!  If they can't stand tough on this idiot's judicial stacking they'll never do a thing about this war.  Obviously.  

    Parent
    Stacked Deck (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:12:45 PM EST
    The Republicans have some pretty scary allies in this, real or imaginary. Win, win for the bad guys. We little people, both here and over there are the losers.

    Parent
    Okay, fess up (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:17:00 PM EST
    You're really Joe Biden aren't you ;)?

    Parent
    Yup, I knew it (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:19:06 PM EST
    and you blog here cuz this is a sexy blog.  I agree Joe, it is one sexy blog and you always = sexy stuff;)

    Parent
    I'm expressing realism (none / 0) (#24)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:27:16 PM EST
    not approval...


    Parent
    I'm just teasin ya a bit (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:29:25 PM EST
    Joe's sort of sexy.  In a scared sort of way ;)

    Parent
    THEY think it's a losing hand ... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:46:48 PM EST
    ...because THEY buy the Cheney-Bush Administration's spin instead of counterspinning.

    Parent
    To deal with it (none / 0) (#33)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:57:30 PM EST
    they need some leadership talent that clearly they don't have. The Dems seem old and tired - they've even put out the fire among the new blood.

    Of course you're correct, but to act on it would take more wit and more guts than they seem to have. Except for Feingold. How can he always be ahead of the game but none of the others? Like a Cassandra. It's very very strange.

    Parent

    Does anybody have the ... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:48:39 PM EST
    ...final name tally yet?

    Finally, yes (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by andgarden on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 10:56:11 PM EST
    You can see it here. Looks about as I remember. What it doesn't show is that Mary Landrieu flipped her vote three times.

    Parent
    Finally, yes (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Maeven on Sat Aug 04, 2007 at 05:06:07 AM EST
    I just love the AP's slant:
    "The 60-28 roll call by which the Senate voted to temporarily give President Bush expanded authority to eavesdrop on foreign terrorists without court warrants."

    And everyone else whose electronic communications are routed through those (and who knows what other) U.S. circuits.  Are all of those communications by "foreign terrorists"?

    No wonder it's next to impossible getting through to the fear mongered.  

    Parent

    i wasn't trolling (none / 0) (#35)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Aug 03, 2007 at 11:37:56 PM EST
    i actually did think dodd, hillary, barack, and reid wouldn't be voting here.

    thanks for deleting the posts though.