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    It's a new day (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:59:28 AM EST
    It's a new nose it's definitely spring.

    I woke up this morning after finally giving up and going to the doctor yesterday for my epic nose/sinus revolt the last couple of weeks.  She gave me a shot and some pills and some prescription nose spray.

    A actually slept last night.  Something I have not really done the last few days because when I lay down I couldn't breath.

    I feel like a new person today.  Or if not new at least a different person.

    I was told there is something of a epidemic of this.  I guess it may be related to the weird spring following a pretty much absent winter.

    Hope you and your sinuses are happier.  Of not, to the doctor!

    Glad to hear you're ... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:09:07 AM EST
    feeling better.

    Sinus problems can be the worst.

    Parent

    Those rotten allergies can knock you down... (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:58:58 AM EST
    and out.  Good luck with them.  For some reason that I don't understand, mine have unusually light this year.  Generally, it's three weeks of sinus hell.  You know, "My eyes!  My eyes!"  Hey, I'm officially retired now. I guess I'll take care of my health now.

    Parent
    I have a long history of sinus problems (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:40:26 PM EST
    But not much n recent years.   For whatever reason tho, this year uhhhhhhhhhh.........

    Parent
    Planned Parenthood (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:16:33 PM EST
    ...is under attack by the Republican Party.  That is not a secret.  What IS a secret is... why?  What is it about birth control that must be destroyed?

    I have tried calling GOP members of Congress, using the name of a constituent because I live in a Democratic district.  Every staffer acknowledges that the hatred is there, but I can't get a straight answer as to why.  They are pretty slippery.  I even asked an Issa staffer, "Can you use the name Darrell Issa and 'Planned Parenthood' together in one sentence?  Any sentence?"  She wouldn't do it, said she would take my comment, even though I pointed out that it was QUESTION, not a comment.

    I'm looking for a suggestion as to whom one should call to ask about the reasons behind GOP policy decisions, if in fact there are any such reasons.  Maybe one of our right-wing shills (who will not be named here but we all know who they are) can help me.

    Anyway, it is one of those intriguing mysteries, right out there in plain sight.

    maybe I don't understand but... (none / 0) (#7)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:36:59 PM EST
    I can try to answer this. Though I'm neither right-wing nor a shill (whatever that is). The Republican Party has cobbled together several disparate groups including gun rights propnents, libertarian utopianists, and Christian groups that define their orthodoxy by certain social issues. For evangelicals (et al), abortion appears to be the most important social-political issue and the Republican Party caters to that wing of their party. Planned Parenthood is the most visible nation organization providing abortion services thus they receive the most vitriol.

    Parent
    Thanks for playing, anyway (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:19:05 PM EST
    Planned Parenthood is the most visible nation organization providing abortion services thus they receive the most vitriol.

    Not the answer, and I already knew all that.

    No federal funds are used to provide abortions by PP, it's already a law.  The federal funds provide birth control, cancer screenings, STD screenings, etc., and of course these are heinous things that cannot be permitted.

    So it is NOT because PP provides abortions, since the government does not pay for that service. Other organizations that provide abortion services do not receive the vitriol that PP does.  

    If the answer were easy to find, I would have found it, and your attempt to answer it does not meet the challenge.

    BTW, the federal government paid for a lot of abortions when I was in the Army in the '60s, long before Roe v. Wade.  I served in a medical capacity, and I knew which of the WACs went in for an abortion.  It was conducted under another term, D&C (dilation and curettage), which we referred to as "dusting and cleaning."  There were a couple every month on the base where I served.

    Parent

    To you, it's play. Not to many, many (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:51:52 PM EST
    females.

    Parent
    or, (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by NYShooter on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 12:23:42 AM EST
    their loved/loving males

    Parent
    Or to their fathers. (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 03:29:43 AM EST
    I want my daughters to continue to have the freedom to make their own decisions about such matters, not some cranky old white males.

    Parent
    whatever (none / 0) (#43)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:50:05 PM EST
    If you want a debate you will have to respond to TrevorBolder's posts. I was trying to be helpfull and couldn't possibly know what you already know.

    Parent
    Huh? (none / 0) (#45)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:19:27 PM EST
    All that some Republicans in Congress are trying to do is take away FEDERAL Funding from Planned Parenthood, NOT trying to close them down.
    So the only reason they are trying to strip away Planned Parenthoods FEDERAL Funding is because whether you say , oh, that money is only paying for our light bill, not that abortion, doesn't wash with the opponents of abortion.

    Parent
    From what my daughter tells me, (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 02:02:28 PM EST
    who works for Planned Parenthood, the accounting controls for how they use their federal dollars are incredibly strict.  So your statement, T-B:
    "Other than Planned Parenthood pledges, we have no evidence that taxpayer dollars aren't keeping the lights on and running the water in the abortion room."

    is just not true. They are relentlessly and vigorously audited, and to protect the vital and life-saving gynecological care and birth control services which constitute well over 95% of what they do, PP is highly scrupulous about the wall of separation they have built. Is is almost like two separate operations (unfortunately, in my opinion). In honor of PP's 100th anniversary this year, I hope many TLers will make a special contribution to PPFA.

    Parent
    Government funding, (none / 0) (#69)
    by KeysDan on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 03:56:44 PM EST
    75% comes from Medicaid billing for services.

    Parent
    Peter (none / 0) (#83)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:22:08 PM EST
    On paper, yes , it is totally possible to isolate funding, and say we only apply it to these functions. On paper, to comply with strict Federal rules.
    I do the same thing at work, we receive 9 million in Federal funds, get audited 2 or 3 times a year by the Feds, or they send a State representative.
    There are strict guidelines in how to spend the funding, WIOA funding, DHP funding, TANF funding (all are Dept of Labor programs)
    We use cost allocation methodology, dividing up all  costs to the applicable programs, per the Fed guidelines. It is all on paper.
    Now , for practical purposes, the way those opposed to PPP federal funding see it;
    Say a  PP facility has a $10 ,000,000 budget, 3 million from federal funding, and the other 7 million from fees and donations. Assume there is a 3,000,000 anticipated overhead costs, turnkey expenses. They do all the right bookeeping, and show that the 3 million federal funding  is never allocated for abortion costs.
    This facility say does 3,000 abortions and 10,000 general health examinations per year.
    Now if that 3 million federal funding was stopped, both the number of abortions and general health examinations would see a decrease. The overhead, turnkey costs , may decline slightly, but the available funding for medical exams and procedures would decline, and the number of abortions provided at that facility would decline. Not a specific amount per dollar eliminated, but they would decline. That is the argument given, that federal funds, despite how they are portrayed on paper, do add to the number of abortions done at a facility.

    You are correct though , on paper, they can show that not 1 dime went to pay for an abortion.
    Just wanted to try and show the other side of the argument,
    The abortion argument is not one I like to stray into, I think both sides have compelling arguments,
    I just wish it was as Democrats had once hoped for, Safe, Legal ,and Rare.

    Parent

    You have (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by FlJoe on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:22:03 PM EST
    zero argument, Governments and other Institutions regularly grant money to other Governments and Institutions with tons of strings attached and it's all on paper! You lay out exactly those points.

    You then you lay out a the fairly complex microeconomic description of the vision of "those opposed". I don't know what breed of "those opposed" you have in your neck of the wood's, but at least nine out of ten down here wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about.

    Down here it's abortion is a tool of the devil, period (unless a mistress is involved, then maybe, or your daughter gets in the family way with a one of "those people").

    Quit trying to put an intellectual spin on these God-botherers.  

    Parent

    It's not (none / 0) (#95)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:42:34 AM EST
    Complex.

    On paper you claim the federal funding only pays for overhead, everything else goes to the health procedures and exams.
    Take away the federal funding and the procedures prohibited by the Hyde amendment are  decreased.

    Parent

    Good idea (none / 0) (#96)
    by mm on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 06:12:26 AM EST
    Take away ... the Hyde amendment ....


    Parent
    Try re-running your analysis (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 08:20:24 PM EST
    with something like the actual figures. Not:
    This facility say does 3,000 abortions and 10,000 general health examinations per year.

    but rather: (In 2014) 324,000 abortions performed about of 2.5 million patients seen (for whom 9.5 million discrete services were provided) in all PP facilities nationally. Not 30% abortions, in other words, but no more than 0.13%. A critically important 0.13%, but still, nothing like you suggest. All of which were were safe and legal, and I would venture to say, rare as well. But not for you (or me) to decide when or whether any of those abortions was the right decision for that woman at that time.

    Parent
    Let me try the arithmetic again (none / 0) (#91)
    by Peter G on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 10:21:28 PM EST
    That comes to 13% of PP's patients (not 0.13 percent) in 2014 who needed an abortion, but those procedures amounted to only 3.4% of all services provided. Apologies for my weakness in doing fractions with seven-digit numbers.

    Parent
    I never commented (none / 0) (#94)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:39:20 AM EST
    Upon that.

    All I was trying to explain is why people feel that federal funds are contributing to the number of abortions.

    I did not research actual numbers, just showing how the accounting works out.

    Parent

    I do not agree with your statistical analysis (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Peter G on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:43:46 AM EST
    The real impact of a hypothetical loss of federal funding, most of which is Medicaid reimbursement for specific procedures and services for poor women, does depend on the relative size of each component of the total PP budget and program, including the cost of providing each kind of service, which of its costs are fixed and which are adjustable, and whether the organization runs a surplus or a deficit, and all sorts of other factors. Your whole analysis, TB, strikes me as simplistic baloney, I am sorry to say.

    Parent
    So the reason (none / 0) (#58)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:17:44 AM EST
    ...is a lie, in your opinion?

    Parent
    A little more (1.00 / 1) (#13)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:44:11 PM EST
    Than that.

    Money is fungible, therefore Planned Parenthood is receiving federal funding to provide abortions.

    That is the biggest reason for the Republican "war" on Planned Parenthood.

    If they didn't receive federal funds, or didn't provide abortions, there would be no "war" against Planned Parenthood


    Parent

    Sometimes money is "fungible" (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by christinep on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:11:10 PM EST
    sometimes it is not.  You made a leap in this instance, Trevor.  With such a charge, you really should back up your statement about "fungible" not with assumption but with facts.

    A good beginning for you on this subject would be to discern the difference between appropriation and allocation in the government system.  Another area to review with regard to PP has to do with legal restrictions attached to the allocation--e.g., the Hyde Amendment and related.  I would be interested in seeing what the specifics of your work product show.

    Parent

    Matter of Opinion (none / 0) (#27)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:19:07 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/ofofohz

     Since money is fungible, when Planned Parenthood is receiving over a half billion dollars annually--well over $127 million of that "excess revenue"--taxpayers are effectively freeing up other funds to pay for Planned Parenthood's abortion business. Other than Planned Parenthood pledges, we have no evidence that taxpayer dollars aren't keeping the lights on and running the water in the abortion room.

    One important admission from Richards' testimony is that a shocking 86 percent of Planned Parenthood's non-government revenue stream is from abortion. That abortion revenue appears to make up a sizable part of the $765 million profit Planned Parenthood has made over the last decade. More troubling still, in several instances Planned Parenthood directly billed and bills taxpayers for elective abortions.

    The article breaks it out, but basically, that is why Republicans wish to defund Panned Parenthood, to satisfy a part of their base that feels federal funds are going to abortion.


    Parent

    Let me fix that for you.... (none / 0) (#34)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 06:17:22 PM EST
    Republicans wish to defund Panned Parenthood, to satisfy a part of their base that wants to eliminate abortion. The funding angle is just one of many stategies toward that goal.

    Parent
    The question was (none / 0) (#35)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 06:34:32 PM EST
    Planned Parenthood (none / 0) (#6)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 12:16:33 PM EST
    ...is under attack by the Republican Party.  That is not a secret.  What IS a secret is... why?  What is it about birth control that must be destroyed?

    I tried to supply a possible answer.
    I do not believe Republicans want to eliminate abortion. A portion of their base does.
    Others actually would be satisfied with the old Democratic mantra, Rare, legal and safe.

    I share the The Notorious RBG's feelings here

     

    Ginsburg has also said that the ruling damaged the growing movement for abortion rights by going "too far, too fast" and catalyzing the conservative pro-life community, which considers Roe a monumental act of judicial overreach. Her words ring truer than ever today as the movement that was then on the decline has since has been successful at unwinding Roe protections in the Supreme Court and at dramatically curtailing abortion rights in red states, potentially nudging the issue back to the justices in the foreseeable future.

    "That was my concern, that the court had given opponents of access to abortion a target to aim at relentlessly," she told students at the University of Chicago Law School, as reported by The Associated Press. "My criticism of Roe is that it seemed to have stopped the momentum that was on the side of change."



    Parent
    That's nonsense. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 03:23:03 AM EST
    TrevorBolder: "I do not believe Republicans want to eliminate abortion. A portion of their base does. Others actually would be satisfied with the old Democratic mantra, Rare, legal and safe."

    Honestly, Trevor, are you for real? The following passage is the full GOP Platform statement on abortion, which constitutes the official stand of the Republican Party on the subject, as adopted unanimously by the delegates to the 2012 Republican National Convention -- you know, the same event where Clint Eastwood had his onstage conversation with an empty chair:

    "THE SANCTITY AND DIGNITY OF HUMAN LIFE: Faithful to the 'self-evident'" truths enshrined in the Declaration of Independence, we assert the sanctity of human life and affirm that the unborn child has a fundamental individual right to life which cannot be infringed. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment's protections apply to unborn children. We oppose using public revenues to promote or perform abortion or fund organizations which perform or advocate it and will not fund or subsidize health care which includes abortion coverage. We support the appointment of judges who respect traditional family values and the sanctity of innocent human life. We oppose the non-consensual withholding or withdrawal of care or treatment, including food and water, from people with disabilities, including newborns, as well as the elderly and infirm, just as we oppose active and passive euthanasia and assisted suicide.

    "Republican leadership has led the effort to prohibit the barbaric practice of partial birth abortion, permitted States to extend health care coverage to children before birth. We urge Congress to strengthen the Born Alive Infant Protection Act by exacting appropriate civil and criminal penalties to health care providers who fail to provide treatment and care to an infant who survives and abortion, including early induction delivery where the death of the infant is intended. We call for legislation to ban sex-selective abortions - gender discrimination in its most lethal form - and to protect from abortion unborn children who are capable of feeling pain; and we applaud U.S. House Republicans for leading the effort to protect the lives of pain-capable unborn children in the District of Columbia. We call for a revision of federal law 42 U.S.C. 289.92 to bar the use of body parts from aborted fetuses for research. We support and applaud adult stem cell research to develop lifesaving therapies, and we oppose the killing of embryos for their stem cells. We oppose federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

    "We also salute the many states that have passed laws for informed consent, mandatory waiting periods prior to an abortion, and health protective clinic regulation. We seek to protect young girls from exploitation through a parental consent requirement; and we affirm our moral obligation to assist, rather than penalize, women challenged by an unplanned pregnancy. We salute those who provide them with counseling and adoption alternatives and empower them to choose live, and we take comfort in the tremendous increase in adoptions that has followed Republican legislative initiatives."

    Now, why would Republicans adopt that plank in their platform, if they weren't serious about wanting to overturn Roe v. Wade and ban abortion? I, for one, take them at their word. If they're not serious, then their entire platform is a collective exercise in the disingenuous.

    So, before you start insulting our intelligence with statements which are so easily refutable that it took me less than 10 seconds to type "Republican Party platform abortion 2012" in Google to prove otherwise, you would be wise to actually first take the time to learn about the subject before engaging us. We didn't just fall off of the turnip truck, you know.

    Or do you still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, too?

    Parent

    You are involved in politics? (none / 0) (#56)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:23:13 AM EST
    Correct?
    You think we all just fell off a turnip truck?
    There are many Party platforms which are placed there to appease some portion of the base, but with no likelihood of ever passing, or even being introduced. It is called pandering, and Democrats do that as well.

    The only bills I can recall being pushed in Congress over the past y years were those banning abortions after 20 weeks, and eliminate federal funding for Planned Parenthood.

    So , I guess that plank was in there just for pandering purposes.

    The bills ACTUALLY pushed in Congress never suggested banning abortion.

    Parent

    Oh, for crying out loud, Trevor! (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 01:12:06 PM EST
    Don't be so damned literal and deliberately obtuse. Quite obviously, Republicans can't "ban" abortion because the current composition of the U.S. Supreme Court presently prevents them from doing so.

    But if one examines what they HAVE done to severely restrict and curtail a woman's access to family planning services and abortion providers in states such as Texas, Mississippi, Kansas and Ohio, et al., there is absolutely no mistaking Republican intent.

    Only a true moron would believe the crap you're spewing about the GOP's actual intent regarding a woman's right to reproductive choice, given all the evidence to the contrary.

    We're talking about women's lives here, and yet you're treating the issue as though this is some kind of phuquing political game in which your challenge is to glibly bullschitt people into thinking that most Republicans are somehow actually pro-choice and pro-family planning, all that aforementioned evidence to the contrary duly excepted.

    More to the point, the ultimate disposition of another woman's vagina and uterus, and any contents she may so choose to allow therein, is absolutely and positively none of your concern as a man to so legislate and restrict at your whimsy and choosing, your own self-perceived moral authority on the matter and accompanying self-righteous umbrage notwithstanding.

    So, mind your own business and butt out.

    Parent

    Thank you. (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 01:40:44 PM EST
    ok (none / 0) (#40)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:36:55 PM EST
    I understand {smile}.

    Parent
    You are aware of the Hyde amendment, (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:03:43 PM EST
    correct?  Federal funds to Zplanned Parenthood are suject to the amendment's mandates and, thus , are not "fungible."

    Parent
    Lol (none / 0) (#44)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:10:09 PM EST
    The federal government declaring money non fungible, does not make it so.

    That is the whole point, money is ALWAYS fungible.

    The linked Federalist article also provided specifics in certain states were federal funds were used, and not by Planned Parenthood.

    Just because the Federal Government decrees something, does not make it so.

    Check immigration laws.


    Parent

    I feel... (none / 0) (#25)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:16:43 PM EST
    ...the funding angle is just a convenient line of attack. Clearly the goal is to prohibit all abortion services. Funded or not.

    The dollar bills in your purse may be fungible but allocated moneys are not fungible on ledgers. PP is already defunded Federally. Not sure what the Republicans want to do - prohibit States from givIng grants to PP under some threat or penalty?


    Parent

    Birth control interferes with the pyramid scheme (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:24:57 PM EST
    Here in Michigan, all the local conservatives want to talk about is how "growth" will make everything right again.  On the surface they're talking about turning farmland into houses and more taxes, the better to kick the can down the road.

    The local "Conservatives" aren't interested in conserving anything but their confirmation biases.  If it's land, pave it.  The label seems to represent their close-mindedness more than the broader GOP-policy-wonk type stuff.  What's really unreal is that we've got tax and spend Libertarians here.

    In other words, as the original Mr. Natural says, "It's all bull$hit."

    Parent

    Really??? (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:21:20 PM EST
    Every staffer acknowledges that the hatred is there, but I can't get a straight answer as to why.

    Wow

    Parent

    Repack asked you for a possible answer, ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:56:52 PM EST
    ... not to play dumb about the issue.

    Parent
    Well, I was trying to be polite and not just say (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:49:36 PM EST
    flat out that I don't believe Repack. Plus:

    I have tried calling GOP members of Congress, using the name of a constituent because I live in a Democratic district.

    And using a false name seems dishonest to me... or at least that's what all you folks claimed about the dudes doing the "investigative interviews" with PP's management.

    But I'll try to help.

    I'm looking for a suggestion as to whom one should call to ask about the reasons behind GOP policy decisions, if in fact there are any such reasons.

    The only source I can think of for BOTH parties would be the people who write their platforms...which we all know is immediately discarded after the election.

    So Repack is just trying to pick a fight.

    Parent

    Not an alias (none / 0) (#101)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:51:12 AM EST
    And using a false name seems dishonest to me

    I don't use a false name.  I use my own name, because there are men with the same name living in virtually all congressional districts.  I can find several entries of my own name (but not me) in any telephone directory.  I assume that congressional offices have caller ID and know my name before they answer.

    The only source I can think of for BOTH parties would be the people who write their platforms...which we all know is immediately discarded after the election.

    I appreciate your attempt to direct my attention to the appropriate people.  Since you have kindly identified them for me, do you have a phone number where I can call these people?

    Parent

    New Orleans Public Defender crisis (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 10:54:15 AM EST
    New Orleans reporter Jed Lipinski hosts a reddit iAMA re the overwhelmed New Orleans public defender's office, which is refusing to accept new clients.  In a recent development, lawmakers have proposed funding the office by taking money from death penalty appeals.  The twitterstorm.  Missouri has the same problems, where one public defender handled 394 indigent youth criminal cases in a single year.  

    Don't really know (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Nemi on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 12:51:38 PM EST
    all that much about French popular music, but this number Est-ce que tu m'aimes? by Maître Gims has become a mega hit. Deservedly so - very catchy tune and an exceptional voice.

    Translation of the lyrics.

    How would Elizabeth Warren, favorite (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by caseyOR on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 01:42:14 PM EST
    fantasy female candidate of Sanders supporters, fare if she were running in this primary?

    Here is some interesting data from Warren's Senate race against Scott Brown.


    Despite those factors, Warren got tarnished quickly when it came to the topic of "honesty". Here's an example of a U-Mass poll from Oct 2012 - notice some of the remarkable similarities to the kind of language commonly reported by the media in descriptions of Clinton:
    Brown is also viewed as more likeable than Warren, but he is also seen as running a more negative campaign than Warren, the poll says. Brown performed better on a variety of personal traits compared to Warren. Voters thought Brown was more honest (38 to 30 percent), more experienced (47 to 22 percent) and more likeable (41 to 28 percent). The candidates were nearly tied when it came to who was more knowledgeable (35 percent for Brown, 32 percent for Warren).

    Brown is perceived as having run the more negative campaign with 45 percent of voters saying Brown was running the more negative campaign so far compared to just 26 percent who thought it was Warren's campaign that was more negative.

    "Even though voters perceive Brown to be running a more negative campaign, he continues to win the personality battle against Warren," Nteta says. "Brown's attacks on Warren's Native American ancestry and her relative lack of experience have been effective in leading voters to question Warren's trustworthiness and her preparedness for the office without adversely affecting his popularity in the state."

    "When asked for one word to describe Warren, the word `liar' appears more frequently than any other word, which was not even mentioned in the previous UMass Amherst poll nearly one year ago," La Raja says. "The next most common word is `smart'. For Brown, the words `moderate' and `honest' remain the top two choices of respondents as they did one year ago."

    Perhaps this vitriolic hatred that gets spewed at Hillary Clinton isn't really about Hillary herself so much as it is about her gender.


    I'm glad (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:57:27 PM EST
    you posted this.

    Parent
    After all that (none / 0) (#99)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:31:01 AM EST
    ...it's easy to see how Brown won.

    Wait.

    Parent

    ABC News is reporting (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by KeysDan on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:00:48 PM EST
    that the NBA will be cancelling the 2017 All Star Game in Charlotte, N.C.  

    The Mississippi Tourist Bureau may need to be concerned with the possibility of it's tourism business being raided by the more gay-friendly, Uganda.

    To Me... (none / 0) (#104)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:38:55 AM EST
    ... if either state gave damn about dollars coming in, they care about dollars, guaranteed dollars, leaving the state for places with less discrimination.

    This is good to some degree in that area, the deep south, is notorious for the grand tax incentives to get companies into their states.  Not only will it benefit other states, it will raise taxes by eliminating the folks who low ball companies with taxes.

    The cost of course is the dollars going into these communities, many of whom can't afford it.  Also, it just sucks for anyone who isn't straight, in that they are basically following the military's failed, Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy.  Because once they know, your job, your housing, your well being, your family, could be at at risk.

    On a side note, being in Texas sometimes it's best for me to keep my mouth shut in regards to politics, but from time to time I do remind people that a republican dream economy exists, it's called the deep south where all their policies have been implemented to perfection.

    This is just another republican dream that will accomplish nothing before it's overturned in the courts and cost the states untold millions in defending the bill and lost revenues.  Dollars neither state has and in the end, they won't be able to openly discriminate and have to go back to discriminating behind closed doors.

    Stay tuned for Tennessee, they are hashing over just how much religious freedom they need in order to properly discriminate against their fellow citizens, and in most cases, their fellow christians.

    Parent

    oh. two different bills (none / 0) (#3)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:41:52 AM EST
    I guess I got the Ms & Nc bills mixed up. The Ms bill is about (as I understand it) businesses being able to refuse service based based on religious conscious and the Nc bill is sbout transgender bathroon use? Is this actually about incumbent southern politicians passing "social issue" bills just prior to the election?

    I (none / 0) (#5)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 11:32:04 AM EST
    I read the article. (none / 0) (#8)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 01:24:30 PM EST
    I would need to know a lot more before I had an opinion. I searched for the Judge's full statement but couldn't find it. But I do confess that I have a pretty favorable attitude toward police. They always seem so professional and nice to me. Sadly, I'm not fond of the way BLM disrupts children's Christmas events or when they block traffic on the highway. Maybe they should reconsider staging those sorts of disruptions?

    Parent
    Yes, linea, (none / 0) (#57)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:22:30 AM EST
    It's also highly distasteful and uncouth when black lives turn into bullet riddled corpses in their misguided attempts to steal bullets traveling at high velocity from the gun barrels of those "professional and polite" policemen's guns.

    - Especially irking is when they do this while running away.  That forces the policeman to endure the public spectacle of having his backshooting labeled perfectly in accordance with "polite, professional" police department "Policy."

    Parent

    didn't mean to get you upset (none / 0) (#119)
    by linea on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:21:14 PM EST
    maybe if there is a dedicated BLM thread we can all have a more substansive discussion

    Parent
    Well the Obvious... (none / 0) (#120)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 10:05:35 AM EST
    ... is if they don't, no one cares, which is kind of their entire mission, you know to make people give a damn about black people.

    Your experiences with the police might be favorable, but surely you have read one or two articles about cops behaving badly.  A few are actually found guilty.

    Your complaint, as far as I can tell, is that they interrupt others.  That's pretty tame stuff compared to what bad cops do, wouldn't you agree ?

    Plus you are really comparing apples to oranges, for cops you don't use the news or their behavior nationally, only your own experiences to form an opinion.  Whereas BLM your opinion is based solely on what they do nationally, and I while I don't know, I can't imagine BLM has ever inconvenienced you personally.

    Why is that, police are sent to jail every day for really stupid S, stuff infinitely worse than interrupting events.  Yet you are not fond of BLM and have a favorable attitude towards the police ?

    Parent

    I vaguely remember the first trial (none / 0) (#14)
    by McBain on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:04:11 PM EST
    that ended in a hung jury. This time it was a judge trial.  I'm not sure if the judge made the right decision but I agree with his statement....
    "Regardless of my decision, there will be those who will use this to further their own agenda."


    Parent
    It (none / 0) (#19)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:32:45 PM EST
    should be on everybody's agenda, even if it's not murder, even it is not about race, we need to ask why an obviously unqualified person is allowed to have such life and death power.

    I would expect something like this to be in BLM's wheelhouse but so far crickets, IMO their agenda would be better served by shining a bright light on this case rather than harassing politicians.

    Parent

    BLM protest to what end? (none / 0) (#36)
    by linea on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 07:08:28 PM EST
    If he had not stood trial there would be some sense in demanding a grand jury review or special presecutor review or something. But the patrolman already stood trial and was found not guilty.

    Parent
    To (none / 0) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:16:06 PM EST
    what end do they confront politicians? To what end did they invoke Eric Garner and Michael Brown long after their killers walked? Do you really think that BLM would consider justice done in this case? I don't.  

    Of course what's done is done and this guy walks free but I think it's important to keep highlighting each and every instance of Black lives being snuffed out by the reckless behaviour of the police, if BLM doesn't do it who will?

     

    Parent

    You'd get some sympathy (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:18:48 PM EST
    if you didn't use Garner and Brown.

    Garner could have not resisted and nothing would have happened.

    Brown was fresh from a strong arm robbery when he decided to attack a police officer.

    In both instances they used very very poor judgement.

    In this case we have had two trials so I'd say the facts are pretty well known and they resulted in the policeman walking.

    If you want to question the lack of training, personnel selection, etc., I'd say you have a point. But if the 911 call says a gun is involved you gotta understand that the police will be setting on ready.

    BLM could be more productive if they went to Chicago. At least they'd get some sympathy and support from people who now view them very negatively.

    Parent

    In the circles you travel in (none / 0) (#73)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:52:15 PM EST
    people are "understanding" about police administering the death penalty for resisting arrest?

    Been traveling in North Korea lately, have we?

    Parent

    It doesn't make any difference who is (none / 0) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:59:53 PM EST
    right or who is wrong to the person who is dead.

    They're just dead.

    So the proper response should be to keep quite and wait for a lawyer to help you sort out who is right and who is wrong,.

    OTOH in Chicago we have:

    Year to Date
    Shot & Killed: 142
    Shot & Wounded: 756
    Total Shot: 898

    Total Homicides: 162

    You'd think that would be worth shutting down the Eisenhower or maybe the Dan Ryan.

    Parent

    It is being repirted (none / 0) (#10)
    by jbindc on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:17:22 PM EST
    That Hillary has won 26 of the 51 state delegates available in Laramie County in the Wyoming Caucus.

    Bernie will still win, but this is kind of shocking.

    That is where Bernie held his big rally (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by MKS on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 06:03:45 PM EST
    The most populous county (none / 0) (#11)
    by Towanda on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:27:01 PM EST
    (if in the least populous state).  Yeh, I was surprised, too.  This was supposed to be an easy get for Sanders.

    Parent
    Maybe it's pushback ... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 02:44:04 PM EST
    ... because of his recent remarks. I don't think that he helped himself this week by shooting from the hip and going negative, particularly with adult women. And the source of all this increasing vitriol appear to be his senior campaign management, namely Jeff Weaver and Tad Devine.

    Parent
    Agree Donald. Weaver and Devine (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Cashmere on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:02:23 PM EST
    have been particularly nasty of late.

    Parent
    They have good reason to be (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:06:25 PM EST
    Their paycheck depends on the campaign continuing.

    Parent
    And it is called "the Equality State" (none / 0) (#16)
    by Towanda on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:20:57 PM EST
    as the first state with woman suffrage -- full suffrage, in all elections -- upon statehood in 1890, and even the first territory with woman suffrage, in 1869.

    And the first state with a woman governor, in 1924.

    My mother was a woman from the West, in another state where women voted well before the 19th Amendment.  (Four states, all in the west, had full woman suffrage by the end of the 19th century.)

    That has led me to read a lot about women from the West.  I learned, early on, to not mess with women from the West.

    Parent

    Interesting. Tell, me, do you (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 08:06:55 PM EST
    read Wallace Stegner?

    Parent
    Years ago . . . (none / 0) (#46)
    by Towanda on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 10:49:22 PM EST
    and I ought to reread -- although the "dean of Western writers" was a Midwesterner, first (Iowa-born), and my favorite of his works is about his years in Wisconsin, in Madison: Angle of Repose.

    Parent
    My favorite too, and the first I read. (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 11:06:15 PM EST
    Another book I would highly recommend ... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 03:40:47 AM EST
    ... is "Pioneer Women: Voices of the Kansas Frontier" by Joanna Stratton. It was written 35 years ago, but its narrative still holds up today. Were I teaching U.S. history, I'd use it as one of my required books.

    Parent
    Great book (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Suisser1 on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:43:34 AM EST
    even now that my copy has split and cracked glue binding, pages falling out, always returned. Hoping my daughter will some day pick it up.

    Parent
    76% in (none / 0) (#17)
    by sallywally on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:30:23 PM EST
    Sanders 121, Clinton 87

    Parent
    Er, 97 (none / 0) (#18)
    by sallywally on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:32:13 PM EST
    In winning (none / 0) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:54:34 PM EST
    this is actually a bad result for Sanders as Clinton has picked up at least one more delegate than she needed to stay on path to the nomination.

    Parent
    Final (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by FlJoe on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 06:05:58 PM EST
    margin 11.4%, well under expectations for Bernie. Personally I was expecting a 25+ blowout. I think Hillary's camp is quite happy with those numbers, Sander's not so much.

    Parent
    Looks like (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:24:23 PM EST
    It's either going to be a tie or Sanders +1.

    Considering the resources he spent there,  and that it was supposed to be a huge win for him, this isn't the good news the Sanders supporters are tryin to spin.


    Parent

    Tie in Delegates 7-7 (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:29:11 PM EST
    Clinton took the last county (Goshen)

    Clinton takes 2 more delegates than needed to continue her quest to the nomination. Big setback for Sanders.

    Parent

    Tucson man has sued to decertify AZ election (none / 0) (#15)
    by sallywally on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    Result.  Wonder whose campaign would be doing this. Based on long lines.

    The Justice Dept (none / 0) (#50)
    by NYShooter on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 12:30:59 AM EST
    has launched an investigation into Arizona primary.

    Parent
    I saw both on the news. (none / 0) (#92)
    by sallywally on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:09:46 PM EST
    The one about the fellow in Tucson was in the crawler along the bottom of the screen and the other was in the regular news report.

    Parent
    Paging CST (none / 0) (#26)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 04:17:26 PM EST
    Any tourist advice for someone visiting on Patriots' Day Weekend?

    Go out of town (none / 0) (#97)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 09:53:06 AM EST
    Like I am :)

    I kid, I kid.

    What are you into?  Museums?  Food?  The marathon?  Historical cultural stuff?  Shows?  Shopping?  Sports?  Have you ever been to Boston before?

    One of my favorite things about this city is some of the venues for plays/shows like the Wang theater or the Boston Opera house which are worth checking out for the buildings alone (and usually have good shows as well) although at this point tickets might be somewhat expensive for that weekend.  I'm sure there will be lots going on in the theater district if that's your thing.

    The Boston Public Library main branch just underwent a bunch of renovations and is one of my favorite buildings just to hang out in, there is a fantastic atrium between the new section and the old section, and it's right by the marathon finish line so if you wanted to scope out the area before the race that's not a bad place to check out (and it's free).

    The downtown area is pretty small/walkable so you could see most of the city just wandering around.  Depending on the weather, and if you're into parks  the public garden/commons will be nice just for hanging out/people watching.  Lots of places to eat and shop around there, etc...  Also the esplanade on the charles and the arboretum in JP are really nice, the esplanade is more urban and closer to downtown, you can be in parts of the arboretum and forget you're in a city.

    For big museums we have the Museum of Fine Arts which is solid and the Science Museum which is honestly a bit... meh.  For weird local museums we have the Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum (very close to Fenway and the Museum of Fine Arts) which is basically what happens when a very rich woman becomes an art collector and then turns it over to the public.  It's different, she was a bit of a hoarder IMO, and not everything is to my taste but it's not a bad place to spend an afternoon.  Cambridge also has some pretty cool architecture and museums but to be honest I rarely cross the river and don't have as much advice about stuff on that side.  Some great bookstores in Harvard Square though, if you're into that.

    If you like beer I know that Sam Adams and Harpoon both do brewery tours.  Many years ago Harpoon also did free beer tastings at various times during the day but I have no idea if that's still going on.

    Castle Island is pretty nice in south Boston, and it's not too far from the JFK presidential library and the Edward M Kennedy Institute in Dorchester.  Those are also right on the water and really nice, but somewhat outside the normal tourist areas.

    Tons of places to eat, depending on your tastes, I'd rely more on yelp for that unless you really want to leave downtown and get into the neighborhoods more.

    If you have more details about what you're trying to do, I'll try to come up with more targeted stuff.

    Parent

    Advance warning... (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:01:42 AM EST
    looks like another TLer might be invading Beantown, I hope to be up at old Fenway for the Dead & Co. shows 7/15 & 7/16.  

    My Sister Warbucks is talking about treating her broke-arse brother to some high price after-market ducats, and I know better than to ever try to argue with my hard-headed sister. 38 years and I've never won an argument with her, why start now? :)

    Parent

    timing! (none / 0) (#103)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:12:00 AM EST
    Honestly I'd love to offer my services as tour guide or even just meet any of you but you're all picking the two times this spring/summer that I already know I'm out of town.

    Parent
    Oh well... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:18:31 PM EST
    I'll just have to settle for Bob Weir, Bill Kreutzman, Mickey Hart, and the gang.  

    Parent
    They're definitely (none / 0) (#109)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 01:55:28 PM EST
    way cooler than me.

    P.S. if you like Jazz, or if you're ever in Boston on a Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday hit up Wally's in the south end.

    That advice is for everyone, but especially you.

    Also if you're into cheap dive bars the Corner Pub on Lincoln Street is your spot and it's right next to Chinatown, so you can eat and drink well on limited funds, which is a lot harder in the rest of Boston than it used to be.

    Parent

    Many thanks for your great reply (none / 0) (#111)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 03:13:04 PM EST
    I have definitely put the Museum of Fine Arts and the Boston Public Library on the list.

    As for food I've been told I have to hit a bakery (the name I've forgotten), But for me personally with regard to eats, anything that would fit under diners drive ins and dives I'd try. But most important I need to find a somewhat bland but good Italian place within a 20 minute walk of Faneuil Hall. I suspect I have to search the North End for that.

    Can't leave town for this one. I have some plans for Monday that covers a few miles. The Esplanade on the Charles River may be just the ticket for the day after.

    Parent

    the bakery (none / 0) (#112)
    by CST on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:04:48 PM EST
    would be either Modern Pastry or Mike's Pastry.  They are across the street from one another in the north end.  Mike's has a bit of a reputation of being more for tourists and Modern has a bit of a reputation of having better "local" cred, but honestly, you'll probably do just fine either way.  If you decide to go after your Italian dinner on a weekend, you will have a lot of company, but the lines move pretty quickly.

    My only real advice about your bland but good Italian food in the north end is plan ahead and make a reservation.  You will have lots of company.  To be honest I haven't eaten there for dinner in years so you are better off looking to the internet for advice on which one but here are two links to get you started.  I don't have much to add other than I'd probably skip Regina Pizzeria.  Another place for good but not too exciting Italian is the Grotto, which isn't the north end but is close, near city hall.  You'll definitely need a reservation though as it's pretty small.

    Most of the good diners/dives are going to be outside downtown in the neighborhoods.  There are ones with good food in downtown but they aren't really cheap, and the cheap ones aren't as good - if you're going for American food.  Sam LaGrassa's which was on the show has pretty great sandwiches, but they're like $12+ bucks a pop.  Lucky's in the seaport isn't bad if you like the basement bar/speakeasy vibe, although it can get a bit crowded on weekends.  They have the best sliders in the city though, even if they will give you a heart attack and have a really pretentious name (high society sliders).

    I forgot to mention the ICA (Institute of Contemporary Art) which is also over by the Seaport.  The entire neighborhood in under construction right now - a formerly industrial neighborhood that is filled with cranes and glass towers under construction that seem like they've been cut off 1/3 of the way up because of the proximity to Logan Airport.  It's definitely something else to see though, just because it's kind of different to see literally an entire neighborhood under construction at one time.  Also you've got some great views of downtown/the waterfront.  There are some good seafood restaurants in the Seaport as well like Row 34 (hipster, expensive, very good food reputation) or Legal Harborside (kind of boring but reliable with amazing views), or Legal Test Kitchen (the hipster more interesting, not as nice views version of Legal Seafood), Barking Crab/Neptune (divey, decent seafood, not cheap), James Hook (takeout, lunch only, solid).

    Parent

    I still crave the clam strips I had (none / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:57:08 PM EST
    in a place I think on a pier...maybe near Faneuil Hall, if that makes any sense geographically.  Only been there once!

    Parent
    Had to look it up... (none / 0) (#118)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 08:02:41 PM EST
    Must have been Legal Seafoods, by Long Wharf.  It was so good!!!

    Parent
    Is (none / 0) (#124)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Apr 14, 2016 at 06:07:49 AM EST
    The No Name restaurant still open?

    That was a fun stop for me during a Red Sox- Yankees series in the 80's

    Parent

    Legal Seafood (none / 0) (#116)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 07:46:29 PM EST
    is a must.

    Parent
    Crab cake! (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 13, 2016 at 08:23:26 PM EST
    Gardener and Fine Arts museums.

    Parent
    Real life deserted island rescue (none / 0) (#30)
    by McBain on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 05:44:06 PM EST
    Three men spelled "HELP" with palm leaves and were spotted by the US Navy and Coast Guard.

    They were only there for a 3 days, but it's still a great story.  Anyone know of a long term situation, like the movie Cast Away?

    I was once stranded for 4 years (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by desertswine on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 09:46:03 PM EST
    in Oklahoma.  

    Parent
    A decade (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 12:48:18 AM EST
    I'll never get a decade back spent in Alabummer.

    I sent oculus an email outlining how I did the right thing Friday morning. There was an acre of land, a trailer house, several piles all over of what I call crap, and three same aged men puttering around collecting stuff.

    Parent

    Gilligan's Island (none / 0) (#31)
    by CoralGables on Sat Apr 09, 2016 at 06:01:16 PM EST
    A Couple of Months Ago... (none / 0) (#105)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 11:59:30 AM EST
    ... I found every episode.  I watched a few of the first season, but the B&W was too much.  I did watch every season 2 & 3 episode.

    What was interesting, they had the pilot, which was the exact same as the first episode, but the professor, Bunny(Mary Ann), and Ginger, were different actors and the theme song was really bad and they were shipwrecked in the Caribbean.

    Here is the original theme song.

    Parent

    How long did it take them to add (none / 0) (#113)
    by CoralGables on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:29:58 PM EST
    the Professor and Mary Ann to the series theme song? I never saw the pilot obviously as the song was unknown to me.

    Parent
    The Pilot... (none / 0) (#114)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    ... was the same as the first episode, just without the actors we know.  If you listed to the pilot theme song, Bunny & Ginger were secretaries and the trip was something 'all could not afford' and a 6 hour tour rather than 3.  The pilot never aired, but now it's available to watch.

    Prof & Mary Ann were added to the song and opening credits starting season 2, which was also in color. Seems like I remember reading something about that was part of their contract negotiations.

    It is insane that something got wiped out of my memory to make room for Gilligan's Island non-sense.

    Here is the pilot in it's entirety.

    Parent

    The remake, LOST (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:15:42 PM EST
    Was much better

    Parent
    Yes, I do. (none / 0) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:22:37 AM EST
    I would highly recommend "Pitcairn's Island" by Charles Nordhoff and James Norman Hall, which is the third novel of their acclaimed trilogy about the real-life mutiny which took place on April 28, 1789 aboard the HMAV Bounty, and its intriguing aftermath.

    Only in the case of Acting Lt. Fletcher Christian and eight of his fellow mutineers, they stranded themselves on that island with purpose, along with 18 Tahitians, and did not desire to be found for good reason. By the time the small but thriving mixed-race settlement on Pitcairn Island was discovered by American sailing vessel Topaz in 1808, only one of those original nine Bounty mutineers was still alive.

    I first read "Mutiny on the Bounty" in 9th grade English class. It was the last book we read that spring, and my teacher noticed that I was so intrigued by the story that she gave me copies of both "Pitcairn's Island" and the second book "Men Against the Sea" to read over the summer.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    "Men Against the Sea" (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:25:28 AM EST
    ...documents the second most amazing feat of navigation (by a European) in history.  The first being Shackleton's rescue voyage across the Antarctic Sea in a 14-foot boat, which managed to hit Elephant Island against the longest odds ever conceived.

    The qualifier "European" is because the Polynesians managed to find every speck of land in the Pacific Ocean, with only two exceptions, Pitcairn's and the Galapagos.  Any suggestion that they did not also find two large continents, North and South America, is ridiculous.  Of course they did, but there were already people there.

    Parent

    "Men Against the Sea" ... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 02:46:39 PM EST
    ... is probably my favorite of the Bounty trilogy. I've long felt that William Bligh has been unfairly caricatured by Hollywood over the decades as some sort of unyielding and even sadistic martinet, when the actual evidence of his personal character and professional conduct as an officer in His Majesty's Royal Navy clearly prove otherwise.

    The prolonged lingering of HMAV Bounty in Tahiti in late 1788 and early 1789, during which the ship's botanist gathered and cultivated breadfruit plants in preparation for their prospective transport to the West Indies -- allowed a good number of her young crew including Bligh's No. 2 in command, 25-year-old Fletcher Christian, to develop personal relationships with local women and conceive for themselves an idyllic island lifestyle for themselves, were they to somehow be able to remain in the South Pacific.

    Most likely, it was their consideration of their own perhaps bleak future prospects upon their return home to dreary Olde England, which prompted Christian and 18 members of the Bounty crew to mutiny and seize the vessel. Under British maritime law, theirs was a criminal act of the highest order, and one which was punishable by death.

    Eventually, once word of the mutiny had reached the British Admiralty upon Lt. Bligh's return home, the HMS Pandora was dispatched to the South Pacific to arrest the mutineers and transport them to England to stand trial per Royal Navy courts martial. By that time, Christian and eight men had already departed Tahiti for their eventual home on Pitcairn Island, having envisioned just such an occurrence.

    Upon HMS Pandora's arrival in Tahiti in March 1791, Captain Edward Edwards arrested the 14 men who had remained on that island, which included four men who had taken no part in Christian's mutiny against Bligh, but for whom there had been no room in Bligh's cutter when he and the men loyal to him were first set adrift by the mutineers in April 1789.

    The 14 prisoners were confined by Capt. Edwards in an open-air cage on the deck of Pandora for the voyage back to England. However, Pandora foundered on the Great Barrier Reef on August 29, 1791 and subsequently sank, with the loss of 31 crewmembers and four of the Bounty mutineers.

    Eventually, the ten survivors were taken back to England from Australia by another vessel, where the four men who had remained loyal to Lt. Bligh were promptly acquitted at trial upon the testimony of their former commander, who assured the court martial that they had taken no part in Fletcher Christian's insurrection, and further had been left aboard the Bounty only because Bligh could not accommodate their presence in his overloaded cutter.

    The remaining six mutineers were found guilty by a Royal Navy court martial and sentenced to death. Two of them received royal pardons from King George III, and one was later acquitted upon appeal by a legal technicality. The remaining three were subsequently hanged from the yardarm of HMS Brunswick at the Royal Navy's main base in Portsmouth on October 28, 1792.

    The fate of Fletcher Christian and the eight mutineers who had fled Tahiti with him remained shrouded in mystery, until the discovery of their Pitcairn Island settlement by the Americans in 1808. It was later determined that the mutineers' lifestyle proved to be not so idyllic after all.

    On September 20, 1793, Christian and three mutineers were killed by the seven Tahitian men whom they had taken as virtual slaves when they had left Tahiti four years earlier. Once Christian was dead, relative harmony was restored and leadership of the surviving group then fell to John Adams, who was the sole surviving mutineer when they were finally discovered 15 years later.

    As for William Bligh himself, he was honorably acquitted at the Royal Navy's official inquest into the loss of the Bounty, which further praised him for his subsequent feat of seamanship in guiding his boat and 18 loyal crewmembers to safety in the Dutch East Indies.

    Bligh continued to rise through the ranks of the Royal Navy, commanded several warships and served with distinction during the Napoleonic wars, and eventually attained the lofty rank of Vice Admiral of Blue in 1814. He died at his home in London in December 1817.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Not sure I agree with all of that (none / 0) (#82)
    by ragebot on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:10:02 PM EST
    Bligh deserves lots of credit for commanding a small open boat on a long open water voyage.

    What I disagree with is the level of sadism Bligh exhibited.  Life on any ship of that era was frightening by today's standards.  I would claim anyone involved with punishing another person with a cat o' nine tails is a sadist.  While the Royal Navy used the cat for formal punishment there was a constant stream of informal punishment administered on both naval and non military ships.  Often times sailors on both were pressed into service against their will, something of a punishment in itself.  Even today modern ships often don't meet OSHA standards but in Bligh's day it was far more dangerous, especially for somewhat new sailors pressed into involuntary service.

    Another problem was medical care.  In the case of the Bounty the ships doctor was basically a drunk who would be sued for malpractice if he lived today, except for the fact that he died during the voyage, shortly after Bligh confiscated his alcohol; and after Dr. Huggan had falsified a death report of a crewman.

    By most accounts Bligh was no worse than other naval officers of the time.  It is just that it was a hellish time for men sailing ships.

    Parent

    Life in the Royal Navy ... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 05:04:10 AM EST
    ... was generally a somewhat hellish experience for the ordinary seaman, regardless of whoever was in command. That said, while William Bligh had a reputation for running a very tight ship, and he was known to junior officers to have a very sharp tongue, there is no evidence that he was sadistic in his treatment of the sailors under his command.

    There is no shortage of speculation regarding why and how the mutiny on HMAV Bounty occurred. But from the official records, this was a crew that was younger than average; Fletcher Christian was all of 23 years of age when the Bounty departed London's Deptford docklands on October 15, 1787. So there's a good possibility that, having gotten a taste of South Pacific island life, many of the young mutineers were simply unwilling to return to the harsh and spare life of a British "Jack Tar" when the allure of Tahiti beckoned.

    Further, there is absolutely no evidence of any rancor between William Bligh and Fletcher Christian on the outbound voyage from England to Tahiti. Quite the contrary, relations between the two men had by all accounts long been warm and friendly. Christian was considered by many Royal Navy officers to have been Bligh's protégé, and he was certainly no stranger to the Bligh household and was well-acquainted with the family. Moreover, this was the third time the two had sailed together; Bligh had specifically requested of the Admiralty that Christian be appointed the Bounty's Sailing Master, or his No. 2 in command.

    Bligh's superiors respectfully declined Bligh's request, and instead gave that post to John Fryer. However, once the Bounty had put to sea, Bligh promoted Christian to acting Lieutenant and effectively demoted Fryer. This was clearly a sore point between the two, and Fryer accused Bligh of favoritism.

    Further, it should be noted that even though he had remained loyal during the mutiny, Fryer was a very harsh critic of both Bligh and Christian in his testimony before the official Royal Navy Board of Inquiry called by Adm. Samuel Hood, First Viscount Hood to look into the loss of the Bounty, and singled out Bligh for having promoted the very man who would later usurp his command by force of arms.

    It's my own considered opinion that the Bounty's five-month-long stay in Tahiti, while the ship's botanists cultivated and prepared the breadfruit plants for the long voyage to the Caribbean, led to an inevitable slackening of ship's discipline, a situation for which Bligh himself bears the lion's share of responsibility for having allowed it to happen.

    Although he remained chaste himself, Bligh clearly tolerated his crew's fraternization with the local populace, particularly their women. "The allurements of dissipation are beyond any thing that can be conceived," he wrote in his 1792 report to the Admiralty regading his men's sexual behavior in Tahiti. Indeed, the Bounty's logbook (which Bligh took with him following the mutiny) shows that 19 of the ship's 46-man crew -- including Fletcher Christian -- were treated by the ship's surgeon at some point for various venereal infections.

    What is clear that as Bligh sought to re-instill a sense of discipline among his officers and crew in preparation for the Bounty's departure, he was facing increasing resistance and hostility from them. Christian had since become romantically involved with a chief's daughter, ostensibly at Bligh's encouragement in order to curry that chief's favor and secure his cooperation. In January 1789, three men deserted, taking with them a small boat and some armaments. When they were caught three weeks later, Bligh had them publicly flogged in front of everyone.

    As British maritime historian Richard Hough noted in his 1972 book "Captain Bligh and Mr. Christian," by the time the Bounty departed Tahiti on April 1, 1789, Bligh had "failed to anticipate how his company would react to the severity and austerity of life at sea, particularly after five dissolute, hedonistic months at Tahiti."

    Instead, once they were at sea, Bligh cracked down on them, especially on Fletcher Christian, whom he berated in front of his fellow officers for having "gone native." He also resorted to punitive measures, such as the reduction of the crew's rum and food rations, for perceived slights in ship's discipline. Four weeks after leaving Tahiti, Christian and 18 of the Bounty's crew had had enough and decided to act.

    And the rest, as they say, is history.

    Parent

    My take (none / 0) (#98)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 10:14:55 AM EST
    is that different men had different reasons for acting.

    But any speculation about why the mutiny occurred must take into account actions common during that period that would be viewed as sadistic today.  Your post never addressed my point that using a cat o ninetales to administer punishment is sadistic, at least by my definition of the word.

    Another consideration is the importance of rum to sailors of the time.  Today we would never allow drinking while sailors were on duty; and actively discourage it while off duty.  But at the time it was a staple of the diet of sailors as water was often undrinkable due to the conditions it was stored under.  Same goes for a lot of the food.

    In fact my second favorite sailing movie (Capt. Ron is first) Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World has one of the best scenes illustrating the problem with food.

    The point is there is a great difficulty in viewing history through today's bias.  We tend to think it is normal for ideas like fair play, equal rights, due process, and other modern concepts are the norm.  In fact for much of history life was brutish (and in many areas of the world it still is) and sadism was common.

    Parent

    ... on the basis of current standards, rather than by the contemporary standards of his day. You do that enough in this field, and you'll find that most every historical figure you ever examine is going to be found wanting in key aspects of his or her life and character, regardless of era.

    By those aforementioned standards of his day, Bligh was considered a much better ship's captain than most of his contemporaries. He was singled out for praise by no less than Lord High Admiral Horatio Nelson, under whose command he served as a ship's captain in command of the 56-gun ship-of-the-line HMS Glatton during the Battles of the Nile and Copenhagen in the Napoleonic wars.

    Bligh was a highly educated man who believed in science, and who generally took a much more active interest in his crew's overall welfare than did most commanders of his era. He took great pains to ensure that his ship was always well-provisioned so that his men had a proper diet, and his ships were known for their (relative) cleanliness, which kept diseases like scurvy at bay.

    Bligh also resorted to corporal punishment far less than did other Royal Navy captains. He most certainly never had a man keelhauled -- a truly barbarous and often fatal form of ship's punishment, which was illegal under British maritime law by the time Bligh served -- as was wrongly suggested in Hollywood film versions of the Bounty saga. In fact, the first men he had flogged on the Bounty were the three who attempted to desert in Tahiti.

    Bligh's primary faults, according to contemporary accounts, were his relative aloofness, his impatience with others and his acid tongue, none of which would have likely endeared him to officers and crew alike. We would probably characterize someone like him today as an anal-retentive personality, which is hardly sadistic or sociopathic.

    If you're looking for an example of the stereotypical heartless ship's captain, you need look no further than Edward Edwards, commander of the frigate HMS Pandora, who arrested those 14 members of the Bounty's crew who had remained behind in Tahiti after Fletcher Christian decided to flee the island ahead of the Royal Navy's inevitable arrival. I've often felt that Edwards was actually Hollywood's inspiration for Bligh's character in the Bounty films, rather than Bligh himself.

    Edwards had his prisoners confined in an open-air cage on the Pandora's main deck, where they were exposed to the elements and subjected to half-rations and physical abuse. All would have surely drowned when Pandora foundered on the Great Barrier Reef, had not one of the ship's officers on his own initiative unlocked that cage just prior to the ship going under, because Edwards himself never issued that order according to the official inquiry.

    As it was, four of the Bounty mutineers drowned along with 31 of the ship's crew when the Pandora sank. Critizized at length by the Admiralty's Board of Inquiry over the loss of HMS Pandora, as well as his harsh treatment of prisoners and crew, Edwards was never again entrusted with a seaborne command, though he remained in the Royal Navy and was eventually promoted the the rank of Admiral of the White.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    As I posted earlier (none / 0) (#110)
    by ragebot on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 02:47:43 PM EST
    Bligh deserves credit for commanding a small open boat over a long voyage in the open ocean.

    But his uneven treatment by history is perhaps best described in this quotation:

    "an unsurpassed foul-weather commander ... I would go through hell and high water with him, but not for one day in the same ship on a calm sea"


    Parent

    Three People Abandon Extreme Conservativsm (none / 0) (#61)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 11:36:41 AM EST
    More double standards (none / 0) (#72)
    by smott on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:51:05 PM EST
    And shockingly, Clinton doesn't benefit!

    Clinton's subway-card difficulties a national joke  on SNL
    here

    While Sanders' apparent ignorance that tokens are still used is not even mentioned, much less mocked.

    Can you imagine if the reverse were true and Clinton seemed  to have no idea how the subway worked ?

    Just documenting the daily double standards.

    SNL (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by mm on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 04:59:55 PM EST
    ongoing caricature of Secretary Clinton is not funny and has never been funny.  

    Parent
    I thought it was funny. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:48:49 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton's issues with that card easily lent itself to physical comedy, while Bernie Sanders' belief that tokens were still used on subways -- well, SNL has mined the animated old curmudgeon bit for several months now, and maybe Larry David wasn't available this weekend.

    Anyway, yesterday's Wyoming caucus was a wash for Sanders, meaning that Hillary is still on track for the nomination. I wouldn't take the perceived SNL slight too seriously. It's only April, and you don't want to be blowing your gaskets before summertime.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Thought it was funny too (none / 0) (#87)
    by smott on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 07:13:26 PM EST
    Could have been funnier to juxtapose Clinton climbing the turnstile when the card didn't work with Sanders trying to use a token, but...whatever.

    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 06:59:58 PM EST
    though she probably just laughed about it herself.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#77)
    by KeysDan on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:12:19 PM EST
    they did have a joke on Bernie knowing about "tokens," pointing to the sparse, but prominently placed, minorities in a campaign shot. A jab at his rallies looking like the check-out line at Whole Foods.  

    Parent
    Better (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by smott on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:18:14 PM EST
    Than nothing I guess, Dan.

    But if Clinton had  appeared similarly clueless as Sanders, she would have been slammed.

    She was slammed anyway for a normal issue with cards/turnstiles.

    While Bernie's actual out of touch -ness...?
    Crickets.

    Yay, famously Free Press!  

    Parent

    Yes, Free Press, (none / 0) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:43:35 PM EST
    but not, necessarily, free of bias.  On the Republican side, Trump is golden for ratings; On the Democratic side, it seems to be animus to Hillary coupled with trying to gloom onto the Bernie advertising demographic.  

    Parent
    Or the More Practical Reason... (none / 0) (#106)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 at 12:24:32 PM EST
    ... that their HRC character is a member of the crew while Sanders character is not.  So overall, I would imagine that these travesties of justice against your candidate are more related to convenience than a secret plots.

    Not to point out the obvious, these skits are so biased and so defaming to HRC, that HRC has appeared in at least 3 of them, but probably more.

    The idea that someone who doesn't ride the subway knows how it works is funny, did it come to her in a dream, or did secret service tell her, seriously.  This is not an instinct one has, and she doesn't ride, so someone told her, and to Bernie's ultimate demise, no one told him.  The horror.

    This stuff is seriously getting to Fox News level of looking for bias and finding it.  Relax and please take HRC off the cross, there is no grand plot at SNL, and christmas isn't losing the war it was never in.

    Parent

    Problem is (none / 0) (#121)
    by mm on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 11:28:15 AM EST
    The false characterizations of Clinton take on a life of their own and gradually become set in concrete.  And influence people into saying she is the most dishonest untrustworthy politician to ever throw their hat into the ring.  I think I may have heard that once or twice.

    For example, apparently SNL did another skit this past weekend mocking Clinton wearing a NY Yankee baseball cap with the price tag still dangling from the hat.

    Message:  Hillary Clinton is a liar and a phony pandering politician.  Ha ha ha. So clever.

    This attack on her began I believe when she started her run for Senate in NY and innocently mentioned that she was a Yankee fan in her youth.

    Clinton Rule Number 5:

    5) Everything she does is fake and calculated for maximum political benefit

    How many people laughing their *sses off knewm that her being a fan of the NY Yankees when she was growing up in Chicago had been written about in the Washington Post in 1994 and was a matter of public record for years?

    Chris Matthews spent time on his show last night to show the clip and get a chuckle out of it even mentioning the price tag in case his audience might have missed it.

    I love it when progressives do the work of the RNC.

    SNL is quite often witless and unfunny.

    Parent

    Yeah... (none / 0) (#122)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Apr 12, 2016 at 12:44:16 PM EST
    ... if only there wasn't some truth to their humor it wouldn't be nearly as funny.

    Do that joke with Sanders, dead flat, and maybe you don't feel that she's switched positions, but when she goes from 'the gold standard' to opposing it when it would have been politically inconvenient to back-it, I see a person making decisions based on political popularity.

    And while that is a good thing, changing attitudes to match the general consensus, the notion that she doesn't do this is silly, and making fun of it is not the same, as you suggest, as making it up.

    This whole SNL line, is something I clearly remember republicans doing over GWB, somewhat, but the Palin whiners and their crying over the injustice of SNL making jokes on her behalf was as nauseating as this.  I mean perspective, HRC isn't offended enough to not participate, why are her supporters ?

    What exactly would you find acceptable comedy in regards to SNL and HRC ?  Or are you suggesting SNL not make fun of presidential candidates ?

    Parent

    Monday Night, April 11, in Denver, Ogden Theatre (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Sun Apr 10, 2016 at 05:33:11 PM EST
    The Parov Stelar Band, the full band, makes it's first ever U.S tour debut. They'll play a lot of Western cities, and Vancouver, as well as playing the Coachella Festival both weeks.

    Here's a taste of their current show from a big festival in Europe last year. (LINK)

    And sorry to whomever I bricked on replying to last week about it might be the first time two candidates with less money win, and how that's interesting with all the talk of too much money in politics, which was a perfectly fine comment, that I made the mistake of trying to read and reply to while playing poker. Not a good idea. What a maroon I was, IOW. Nothing new, as we all know.

    Peace out.