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Tuesday Night Open Thread

I'm out tonight, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    David Frum (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 01:30:21 PM EST
    called the majority of the GOP Vichy Republicans. Seems like a pretty apt name for them. They'd be willing to sell out the entire country to Putin in order to get less regulation for business or any of their other ideas enacted.

    Happy Birthday Old Man River... (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 02:19:13 PM EST
    My great-uncle who I have mentioned at times over the years turned 94 years old today...one of few and proud still around who took shrapnel from Gerry as a gunner on a Bomber in the Army Air Corp.  And since the war a charmed life...never had a boss, lifelong swinging bachelor who has leisure traveled 3 continents.

    Still got his marbles and a strong heart (the family jokes he will outlive us all), but the chronic arthritic knees leave him in serious discomfort most of the time.  Dragging those old legs behind his walker and pretty much housebound these days.  But he's a tough s.o.b. and stubborn, refusing my offer to move to my place to take closer care of him. Anxiety gets to him in unfamiliar environs.  

    So here's to him, Happy Birthday Uncle V!  

    Yes, Birthday Greetings (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 04:49:59 PM EST
    to great uncle, and great that Uncle V has such a nice grand nephew.

    Parent
    The House Select Committee (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by KeysDan on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 03:01:23 PM EST
    on Benghazi quietly filed its final report, December 7, 2016.  The findings were released last summer, but Chariman Trey Gowdy, (R.S.C) let the committee remain in place. Just in case.

     But, now, Gowdy says this is the final, definitive accounting.  The $7.8 million committee worked for over 2.5 years, faltered and embarrassed itself during  Mrs. Clinton's deftly presented 11-hour testimony, and came up with a report of 320,000 words (perhaps Gowdy needed all that time to count the words).

    Evaluated on the basis of the mission as offered by Kevin McCarthy, (R. CA), who was running for Speaker of the House at the time--- to cause Mrs. Clinton's polls to fall, that mission was accomplished.  

    But, despite Gowdy and his band of Republicans' best efforts, the Select Committee could not fully pull it off. Achievement of the mission needed to be augmented with the aid and abetment of Comey and the FBI (although it took a couple of tries), and the visible hand of Putin.

    While it is likely that not many opposed to Mrs. Clinton could accurately explain what crime lurked in the way she emailed (essentially the only revelation), it was clear to them that she needed to not only lose the election because of it, but also, be "locked up."  But, once again, the country has a notorious Mission Accomplished: Crooked Hillary lost; Never-tell-a lie Trump wins.  And, the House can now get on with the people's agenda of killing Medicare and Social Security, and teaming up with Putin against China.

    House Committee (none / 0) (#7)
    by KeysDan on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 03:02:24 PM EST
    A pained and truthful essay by Patti Smith (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Peter G on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:42:31 PM EST
    on her performance of Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall," at the Nobel ceremony last week. With an embedded video, to see and hear her rendition.

    Patti Smith is such a treasure... (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:50:36 AM EST
    I'll never forget when I saw her and her band open for The Balck Crowes on Halloween at the United Palace Theater years back, she was covering a Nirvana tune and Patti was passionately growling Cobain's lyrics, proceeds to clear her throat by hocking a giant loogie right on stage, and gets back to growling without missing a word.  So Patti Smith.

    A most fitting lyrical poet to help honor Bob's Nobel Prize.

    Parent

    Thanks, KDog (none / 0) (#115)
    by Peter G on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:39:51 PM EST
    for teaching me a new expression.

    Parent
    I was moved by her performance (none / 0) (#70)
    by Towanda on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 11:45:02 PM EST
    Thanks, Peter; I had not seen this backstory about her planning to perform one of her own songs, and then deciding to do a Dylan song, instead.  

    And listening to the lyrics again, in these times . . . a perfect selection, sadly.

    When I first saw it, I was moved by her performance (as were others, as we can see) and her humility -- and now, even more so.  By those measures, well, I cannot imagine anyone doing it better but Dylan himself.

    And his comments of acceptance were marvelous, too.


    Parent

    To be frank, I didn't care for (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peter G on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:41:50 AM EST
    Dylan's acceptance comment, insofar as he seemed to be equating or even comparing himself with Shakespeare, although I realize it was limited to the question of a popular writer's contemporaries asking "is it literature." Even if the analogy he was trying to draw is apt and intriguing, that choice for a historical example just grated. Of course, the acceptance comment is not his Nobel Address, which is to be delivered some months from now. Looking forward to that.

    Parent
    Bob's made a point of saying, (none / 0) (#124)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 05:10:23 PM EST
    in the last few years, that he's no longer the guy who wrote all those songs. He says he's been "transfigured", whatever he means by that..

    So now maybe he has to imagine back to what he thinks the guy who wrote all those songs would say in response to winning the Nobel.

    Maybe three hundred years from now, there'll be people claiming those songs were really written by Bob Nuewirth or Richard Farina, the way some people say William Shakespeare couldn't have written all those plays and sonnets.

    Parent

    Ah, yes, Richard and Mimi Farina (none / 0) (#128)
    by Peter G on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:50:17 PM EST
    That's the ticket! I was so lucky to see them in a guest appearance with her sister, Joan Baez, at Lincoln Center in 1966, not long before Richard died in a tragic motorcycle accident. (In the linked video, they appear on Pete Seeger's public television show, Rainbow Quest, performing his powerful anti-Klan ballad, "Bold Marauders.")

    Parent
    Good one (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:26:09 AM EST
    Aleppo - WaPost Editorial (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    "Above all, Aleppo represents a meltdown of the West's moral and political will -- and in particular, a collapse of U.S. leadership. By refusing to intervene against the Assad regime's atrocities, or even to enforce the "red line" he declared on the use of chemical weapons, President Obama created a vacuum that was filled by Vladimir Putin and Iran's Revolutionary Guard. As recently as October, Mr. Obama set aside options drawn up by his advisers to save Aleppo. Instead, he supported the delusional diplomacy of Secretary of State John F. Kerry, whose endless appeals to Moscow for cease-fires yielded -- as Mr. Putin no doubt intended -- nothing more than a humiliating display of American weakness."

    "On Tuesday, Mr. Obama's U.N. ambassador, Samantha Power, delivered an impassioned denunciation of the Aleppo carnage, which she said would "join the ranks of those events in world history that define modern evil, that stain our conscience decades later." She excoriated the Assad regime, Russia and Iran but offered no acknowledgment that the stain of Aleppo extends also to her, the president and American honor. Those who will live with the long-term consequences of the Syrian catastrophe are unlikely to be so forgiving."

    Editorial.

    At this point (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:10:28 AM EST
    why discuss it? Trump is aligned with Assad and Putin on this issue.

    Parent
    What does Trump have to do with what (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    is happening in Aleppo now, and what the US policy and response has been there?

    Yes, feel free to blame everything on Bush too.

    Are you fine with what is happening in Aleppo? Do you feel Obama and Kerry have done a good job there?

    Why do you so frequently try to change or deflect discussions? Why can't you just address the topic at hand?

    Parent

    Silly (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:46:54 AM EST
    Trump is going to be in charge of foreign policy is he not? He has repeatedly said that he sides with Assad and Putin. Obama is going to be out of office. That is the past and the one that actually was against Putin and Assad who ran for president you spent your entire time on this blog trashing. So excuse me if it seems like you really could care less about this issue. The GOP picked the candidate who is on the same side as Obama here. So why are you complaining?

    I am addressing the issue at hand. Why are you obsessed with someone that is leaving office in a month?

    Oh, yes, the GOP gas lighting term "deflect". C'mon grow up.

    Parent

    Nope, Trump is not the president now (none / 0) (#100)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    and has not been for the last 8 years. Obama and Kerry are in charge. People are being slaughtered in Aleppo right now, today. Many more will be dead by the time Trump is the president.

    Again, are you satisfied with how Obama/Kerry have handled Aleppo and Syria?

    Parent

    And what is Trump (none / 0) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:59:37 AM EST
    going to do to change the situation in Aleppo? Like I said Trump agrees with what Kerry and Obama have done. You are dwelling on the past. You don't like what happened in the past. I get it. But frankly why are you obsessing about the past when it's water under the bridge?

    Yes, many will be dead before Trump takes office but again, many more will die under Trump. So why do you support Trump if you think people dying in Aleppo is a problem? You only seem to care what Obama did but not the fact that Trump agrees. And frankly they are Muslims which most Republicans would like to die. So excuse me if I don't take your crocodile tears seriously.

    Parent

    No, I am not dwelling on the past (none / 0) (#105)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 12:24:38 PM EST
    I would like to know why the US, and international community, aren't doing more in Aleppo right now Like today. Tomorrow.  Why is this slaughter continuing without being checked in some respect. I agree with the WaPost editors' assessment.

    At this rate, by the time Trump becomes president, Aleppo will be over and thousands more will be dead.

    Why do you have to avoid all of the tough arguments. Your tactic is to bob and weave, change subjects, attack, and name call.  A sign of a complete lack of substance on the points being discussed.

    Parent

    Elections have (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    consequences and the consequences of Trump are that we sent the message that Muslims are only worthy of being harassed, trailed and put in registries and camps. I'm not AVOIDING anything. You are the one avoiding talking about consequences. You seem to expect Obama to solve your own problem. For some odd reason you want Obama to do something on his way out but thinking that Trump should do nothing. Where are the Republicans advocating for what you are saying? The only ones I could find is McCain and Graham issuing a statement about Aleppo. The rest of the GOP is doing a duck and run. You want to have it both ways. You want to run against Muslims as all being terrorists and then you want to complain about not saving Muslims. Where are the people of Aleppo going to go? We've already seen that they can't come here. All of Europe is fighting an anti-Muslim rear guard action from the Putin funded alt-right. We now have the alt-right running the government here in the US.

    Like I said you need to take responsibility for your actions. You supported the GOP and you can't scream at Obama to resolve you from your own poor choices.

    I'm sorry but you do not get to define the argument. It's another conservative gas lighting technique where everybody is supposed to say what Republicans want them to say.

    Parent

    Nope, Ga6 (3.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:49:14 PM EST
    Obama is the president now, not Trump. You just can't face up to explaining what's going on now, can you?

    I voted for Hillary, and supported her from the get-go. We still have our Hillary sign in the window of our house. Took down the yard signs, but kept the sign in window.

    You are unable or unwilling to have discussions or defend your points. You just try to change the subject, attack the poster or author, claim the poster said something he/she didn't. You must lack substance, and probably knowledge too.

    Pretty close to a name caller at times too. That's why you've had your posts deleted and received reprimands multiple times.

    Parent

    Well, aside from your snide comment (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:18:56 PM EST
    the answer appears painfully obvious:  Obama will be President for about 4 more weeks; he certainly is not in a position to start a new military action; Trump undercut any leverage Obama had with Russia and Syria by backing so strongly Russia and Russia's support of Assad; and Syria backed by Russia, PEOTUS's bff, is killing its own people.

    Obama has no practical ability to intervene militarily; Trump would certainly oppose and undo any such action.

    But I assume you know all that.    

    Parent

    Obama has been president for almost 8 years (none / 0) (#139)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:20:48 PM EST
    Perhaps he should have come up with a better plan long ago. The Syrian situation and crisis wasn't just invented.

    How would you rate Obama's performance in Syria?

    Parent

    So, your insistence (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:47:30 PM EST
    you were not looking backward, only forward, was just nonsense.  You do want to look backward.

    You expose your commentary as dishonest.

    Parent

    I'm looking at today (1.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:33:46 PM EST
    Are you unaware of what is going on in Aleppo? Read this WaPost op-ed, and report back to us.

    "Inconsequential action. There is the Obama doctrine"

    "After five years and more in which the United States' inaction in Syria has transformed our country into nothing other than a bystander to the greatest atrocity of our time, they have forfeited the right to this language. Their angry and anguished utterances are merely the manipulation of the rhetoric of conscience on behalf of a policy without a trace of conscience. You cannot be cold-hearted and high-minded at the same time. Historians will record -- they will not have to dig deeply or interpret wildly to conclude -- that all through the excruciations of Aleppo, and more generally of Syria, the United States watched. As we watched, we made excuses, and occasionally we ornamented our excuses with eloquence."

    I am embarrassed for our country and Obama. Simply a disgrace.  Not even idle eloquence. Just silence. Where is the America we used to know? Don't think HIllary would have let Syria and Aleppo go like Obama has.

    WaPost op-ed.

    Parent

    You change the subject again (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MKS on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 10:17:56 AM EST
    What is currently going on in Aleppo, you ask?

    First, you say, you are not concerned about yesterday only going forward.  

    Then, you say Obama's track record for the last 8 years is bad (you are wrong.)

    Now, come back again to today.  I already answered you:  Obama cannot realistically take military action today because Trump opposes it and would undo anything Obama could start.

    And, I also said, "Damned if you do (Libya) and damned if you don't (Syria.)

    You are not being an honest commentator here.  I answered your questions, as insincere as they were.  Go away.

    Parent

    Nope, none of that is correct. (1.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Green26 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 07:42:04 PM EST
    I provided a WaPost editorial and a WaPost op-ed. I agree with both.

    I know what is going on in Aleppo. I didn't have to ask. An atrocity, a slaughter. Russia doing what it wants, and showing no respect for Obama.

    Obama record on Syria is very bad. I agree with the 2 editorials. Even Hillary thinks and knows Obama has been bad on Syria.

    I didn't suggest that Obama take military action in Syria now. Don't know why you're talking about that.

    Ya I know what you said, but I said either don't go in, or go in and plan to get the job done. Don't tiptoe in and then freeze or back out.

    No, you stop being dishonest.

    Parent

    More dissembling (none / 0) (#204)
    by MKS on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 07:45:25 PM EST
    Go away.  There are plenty of anti-Dem blogs for you to visit.  

    Parent
    You are being a troll (none / 0) (#183)
    by MKS on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 10:19:32 AM EST
    and repeat yourself even though I have addressed your points.

    Parent
    MKS, feel free to defend Obama on (1.00 / 1) (#203)
    by Green26 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 07:43:42 PM EST
    Syria. Would love to see your defense.

    I like how you call posters trolls, when you have no response or argument to make. You lack the right stuff, even for a message board.

    Parent

    I did (none / 0) (#205)
    by MKS on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 07:50:06 PM EST
    And you failed to respond.

    You are just re-arguing what you have stated many times before.

    And now you are being dishonest (again.)  It is laughable.  First, you say Obama is President now, you are not talking about the past.  After I respond substantively, then you say, how do I rate Obama over the last 8 years.  What a joke you are.

    Then back to what Obama should do now.  

    If do not want a military response in Syria why don't you provide the strategy?  Rather than trolling.  Substance, now, pal.   Or, better, yet, just be quiet.

    Parent

    Obama threatened (none / 0) (#190)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 01:21:27 PM EST
    on 8/20/2012...he did nothing in 4 years and 4 years.

    Why? He didn't want to and, to be fair, the country didn't want to.

    Parent

    There is (none / 0) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:01:22 PM EST
    nothing to explain. Obama is a lame duck. Personally I don't think lame ducks should get involved in foreign interventions like Bush Sr. did in Somalia. Trump can do something or he probably won't. Like I said he sided with Putin on all this so he's probably okay with it all.

    You never supported Hillary. You were here the entire time shopping negative stories about Hillary. Again, quit attempting to rewrite your own history. All you did was concern troll about emails. I've got your number. So just take responsibility for what you have done and move on.

    Parent

    Sorry, but I voted for Hillary and supported (1.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    her the whole time. You don't have a clue. I wasn't shopping any negative stories on Hillary. Just found the emails interesting, provided my views and some information, and my views that the emails were damaging and would dog her in the campaign via drip, drip, drip or more were proven to be correct.

    You on the other completely misanalysed the impact of the emails and the strength of Hillary.

    Parent

    That's nice (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:25:39 PM EST
    Do you suppose anyone actually believes it?

    I know I don't.

    Parent

    So, I am not the only one? (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:53:15 PM EST
    I would ban his arse toot sweet.

    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#112)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 01:38:25 PM EST
    you who are bobbing and weaving, demanding that "more" be done, yet giving not one single possible option of what that "more" may be.

    Parent
    Have bobbed or weaved in any respect (none / 0) (#129)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:51:15 PM EST
    in this thread. Just posted part of a good WaPost article. Funny how none of you have the ability to even comment on it, one way or another. Just avoid the topic, and pick at other posters. Where's your substance?

    Parent
    Where is your (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:56:19 PM EST
    substance? All you want to do is scream at Obama. Whatever.

    Parent
    There is substance in my posts (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:13:40 PM EST
    You just avoid discussion. Obama is the president. If you are okay with 400,000 or so people dying in Syria, and a huge refugee crisis being created from there to Europe and elsewhere, then just say it. Just say it's just too hard, and you are fine with letting people get slaughtered and Syria die.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#150)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:34:26 PM EST
    point is, you and the Post are critical of Obama's actions, fair enough, but there is never any options put forth  of a path not taken that would have avoided this disaster.

    Maybe there were/are no good options, after all history has proved again and again in the middle east that there is no magic wand.

    Parent

    I posted substantive replies (none / 0) (#184)
    by MKS on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 10:20:47 AM EST
    to your trolling.

    Now, please move along.

    Parent

    Why? Did you not just see the elections in (none / 0) (#118)
    by vicndabx on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:56:10 PM EST
    Britain and the US?  Better question to ask yourself is why your fellow earthly denizens of first world countries are so d@mn selfish.

    Parent
    Because of Iraq and Afghanistan (none / 0) (#175)
    by Steve13209 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 08:17:08 AM EST
    The US went into both of those countries and totally botched it, militarily and "winning hearts and minds". Obama was not going to be another W and try to muscle in with no real end game possible.

    Parent
    Two different reasons (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 08:35:32 AM EST
    In Afghanistan we went in to destroy the Taliban.

    In Iraq we went in to get rid of Saddam.

    In both places we did what we initially wanted to do.

    But we hung around thinking we could start a western style democracy without absolutely destroying the culture. And even worse, we told the enemy we were leaving.

     

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:51:35 AM EST
    were you in favor of our intervention in Libya? Which was a similar situation.

    Short of direct military intervention against Syrian and possibly Russian forces(which would have probably been an order of magnitude harder both militarily and politically), it seems to me there were no good options.

    There is little doubt in my mind that Putin feels emboldened by Trump's victory and we will probably much more adventurism from him in the near future.

    Parent

    Just because something is hard and (5.00 / 3) (#102)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:59:09 AM EST
    the choices are tough, doesn't mean that the US should sit back, do little or nothing, let Putin and Iran gain the upper hand, and allow hundreds of thousands of people to be slaughtered.

    I didn't follow Libya closely but was fine with the initial US position and intervention. I would have continued to be more assertive, and would not have fallen back and tried to lead from behind. Intervening may or may not have been a mistake, but not following through was a huge mistake. Probably Obama's caution and timidity.

    Parent

    It's (none / 0) (#104)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:52:20 AM EST
    easy to criticize for not making the "tough" choices without delineating what those choices might be.

    This whole "leading from behind" meme is just a silly canard. The Libyan intervention was a fairly broad based international effort(driven largely by the French). The lack of follow up was also an international problem driven largely by the Libyans themselves wanting to go it alone.

    Remember the opposite of caution is recklessness. I am not saying that there is not some sweet spot perfect path between the two, but I have surely not seen that path described by any critics.

    Given the complexity of this modern world, I doubt anyone can come up the  Goldilocks solution to the multitudes of problems and conflicts facing us, thus leaning towards the side of caution should be applauded.


    Parent

    Libya (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:09:09 PM EST
    Either the US should have gone in stronger and kept it up, or not bombed and helped get rid of the dictator. Picking the middle ground, bombing and then backing off, was never going to work. Did Obama really not learn anything from Iraq. Bombing/invasion without a good plan or plans for the aftermath is virtually never going to work, maybe never.

    Libya and its people are worse off now. A failed state. A terrorist haven. The Libyan people's situation is even worse than before. The US with egg on its face.

    I agree with the WaPost that Obama's legacy in the Middle East is likely to be rated somewhere from bad to terrible. Pulled out of Iraq too soon and left no troops (please spare us the BS about he had to; he didn't), allowing Iraq to almost fall apart. Didn't handle Syria or ISIS properly, and allowed ISIS to further develop and thrive. Now Syria is a disaster. A huge humanitarian problem. Allowed Russia and Iran to sweep into the vacuum, and push the US aside.

    While who knows what damage Trump may cause in the world, I'd rather have his generals having significant input than have what Obama did in his 8 years. I think the Iran deal is not gong to turn out well either. But we'll see.

    Parent

    Correct (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:19:13 PM EST
    Libya was a multinational screw up, not just the USA.
    But we agreed to go along, so, yes, we also screwed up.
    Either the US should have gone in stronger and kept it up, or not bombed and helped get rid of the dictator. Picking the middle ground, bombing and then backing off, was never going to work.

    Correct, but then the administration was so proud of we came , we saw, he died.

    Syria, to be fair, the American populace was very tired of troops in the Middle East. But other measures could have been taken. It would have taken political courage to take humanitarian measures when the pulse of the country was not for it.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#162)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:08:50 PM EST
    that's the point, it's almost inevitable that interventions of these sort are prone to be "screwed up" one way or the other. I would argue that Bush's folly was a couple of magnitudes higher than the Libyan intervention.

    Everybody knows what a vipers nest that region is, but strangely enough the main criticism of Obama is his excessive caution.....gee maybe he reads history or something.  

    Parent

    All tedious nonsense (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:23:16 PM EST
    that has been discussed here many times before.

    Why are the anti-Dem people here in such force now?

    Ban 'em all, I say.  Blog cloggers all.

    Parent

    What does that even mean? (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:33:56 PM EST
    Either the US should have gone in stronger and kept it up, or not bombed and helped get rid of the dictator. Picking the middle ground, bombing and then backing off, was never going to work. Did Obama really not learn anything from Iraq. Bombing/invasion without a good plan or plans for the aftermath is virtually never going to work, maybe never.

    So what should they have done?  No air support and let Gadaffi continue to slaughter his own people?  Or invade and occupy Libya indefinitely.  It's funny how all the armchair generals always spout platitudes and generalities (pun intended).  Easy, ... but not remotely persuasive.

    I agree with the WaPost that Obama's legacy in the Middle East is likely to be rated somewhere from bad to terrible. Pulled out of Iraq too soon and left no troops (please spare us the BS about he had to; he didn't),

    Spare us the BS that he didn't have to - he did.  In the absence of a new SOFA (to which the Iraqi parliament was not going to agree) the US was legally required to get out of Iraq.  Fact.

    Parent

    Where do we put the refugees? (none / 0) (#123)
    by vicndabx on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 04:04:15 PM EST
    How do we house/clothe/feed them?

    Can any come to America?  

    Let's not pretend the climate was ripe in America under Obama to help refuges from that part of the world.

    Parent

    The French were (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:30:19 PM EST
    among those pushing strongly for us to intervene.  Many Arab states as well.  

    There was no real ability or will to intervene with ground troops.  Obama's cautious approach has worked in other situations--such as Kosovo.

    And, Libya was in the middle of a civil war with massacres looming.   An effort was made to prevent that from happening.

    The key wrong assumption you an your ilk make is that we waltzed into Libya and just took out gaddafi for sh*ts and giggles and created the chaos.

    The chaos and killing already existed. Before we became involved.

    Parent

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't (none / 0) (#154)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:43:07 PM EST
    We intervened in Libya, and that did not work; we did not intervene in Syria, and a massacres occur in Aleppo.

    If we had not intervened in Libya, a massacre would have occurred in Benghazi....

    So which approach is best?

    Parent

    The Best Approach Was (none / 0) (#179)
    by RickyJim on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:28:18 AM EST
    to do nothing.  That means Libya, Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq.  When he invaded Kuwait, Saddam told US diplomat Joseph Wilson IV that the US would be supplied with lots of cheap oil if it just let things stand.  However Wilson's boss GHWB didn't agree to that and his successors have continued that same misguided policy.  I can't find any evidence that meddling in the Muslim world has lead to lives being saved or greater US security or prosperity.  In fact my reading of the record suggests the opposite conclusion.  

    Unfortunately, the common wisdom seems to be that standing by and letting them kill each other is callous and heartless.  But a deeper analysis indicates it would save more lives, including ours, in the long run.

    Parent

    Where do you cone up with numbers (none / 0) (#185)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 11:56:53 AM EST
    ... for lives lost/prosperity in an alternate reality that,  by definition, never has and never will exist?  But the cheap oil promise was amusing.   As long as Saddam was telling the truth, and as long as Iran didn't decide they couldn't tolerate Iraq's invasion, or the Saudis didn't do the same ...

    ... erc., etc., etc.

    Parent

    The Burden of Proof (none / 0) (#187)
    by RickyJim on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 01:00:19 PM EST
    is on the party that decides to go war.  Of course we will never know exactly what would have happened if we kept out of all those conflicts in the Muslim world.  But if you add up the costs of our interventionism, could doing nothing have turned out worse?

    Parent
    Yes - it could have (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 01:08:05 PM EST
    Then you should argue with GWB.  But since he's not here,  and you're the one claiming - with absolutely no evidence - that "intervention" (in all it's forms) is worse than non-intervention,  the burden of proof is on you to support your assertions.

    BTW - I was not in favor of the Iraq invasion.

    Parent

    Trump's Denial About Russia, (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 12:50:11 PM EST
    NYTimes editorial, December 15, 2016 (the day of postponement-- Trump was to have a press conference and present his resolution to business conflicts)

    "Mr. Trump's reaction to the CIA's findings leaves him isolated, and underscores his dangerous unfamiliarity with the role of intelligence in maintaining national security.

     There could be no more "useful idiot," to use Lenin's term of art, than an American president who doesn't know he's being played by a wily foreign power.

     Or maybe it's as Mr. Trump says: He's 'a smart person,' and avoids presidential intelligence briefings because they repeat what he already knows.  If so, what else does he know about Russia that the intelligence agencies don't?"

    The final sentence is rather curious. What does the NYTimes suspect/assert, based on their investigative reporting?

    Obama and FBI knew in 2015 (none / 0) (#153)
    by thomas rogan on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:42:59 PM EST
    Or so says NY Times yesterday.  Obama only now promises to take action.  He's shocked, shocked.  Trump wasn't even the nominee in 2015, so the excuse that Obama didn't want to feed Trump's claims of a rigged election are lame.  Heck, why didn't the Obama administration tip off the DNC?

    Parent
    Why no link? (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 02:17:34 PM EST
    I'm guessing because your claim about the NYT is false.

    The FBI (not "Obama") knew about the hacking and their response was to leave a voicemail at the DNC's IT help desk, which is where your theory about Obama falls apart.   The FBI's half@$$ED response should be investigated.

    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#196)
    by KeysDan on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 03:42:12 PM EST
    That FBI story does not pass the smell test.  But, if this is the modus operandi of the FBI, save for the "intense public interest" in how Mrs. Clinton emailed, there should be a lot of "you're fired," going around like winter flu.

    Parent
    So what? (none / 0) (#156)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:45:33 PM EST
    This must be the new Fox talking point.

    The issue is the extent of the interference.  Russia interfering  in our elections is a problem.

    .
    .

    Parent

    A Fine Kettle of Phish. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:32:55 PM EST
    Trump did not twitter dis Putin's computer invasion of America, but did so in response to Vanity Fair's critical review of Trump Grill, calling the publication "dead."   Hope no one criticizes Trump's ability to tickle the ivories. Better look out.

    Back in the 1980s, the late Sam Kinison ... (none / 0) (#122)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 04:03:57 PM EST
    ... was one of the very few people who've found success by becoming their own best parody. In fact, that shtick worked out so very well for him that Trump and his supporters have apparently decided to emulate his example:

    "Russians? What Russians? Look, the CIA doesn't know squat, 'cause these guys get it wrong all the time. All. The. Time. For all they know, it coulda been the Chinese or the Koreans -- or maybe IT WAS SOME GAWDAMMED LOSER WHO'S LAYING ON HIS COUCH BACK IN NEW JERSEY AND STILL THINKS HE'S THE MUTHERF---IN' GOVERNOR!!! OH!! OH!! OOOOHHHHHH!!!!!!"

    Welcome to the next four years of our lives.

    Parent

    Death knell for death penalty (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Peter G on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:01:25 PM EST
    in Delaware. The state Supreme Court previously struck down capital punishment in the First State. Today, they held that ruling retroactive, thus clearing death row once and for all.

    Forgotten hero... (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by desertswine on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:54:32 PM EST
    Trump's Nat'l Security advisor... (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 01:59:50 PM EST
    inappropriately spilled classified information.

    A secret U.S. military investigation in 2010 determined that Michael T. Flynn, the retired Army general tapped to serve as national security adviser in the Trump White House, �inappropriately shared� classified information with foreign military officers in Afghanistan, newly released documents show.

    At the Republican National Convention in July, Flynn called on Clinton to drop out of the race for putting �our nation�s security at extremely high risk with her careless use of a private email server.� He egged on the partisan crowd in chants of �lock her up,� adding: �If I, a guy who knows this business, if I did a tenth, a tenth of what she did, I would be in jail today.�

    Maybe Flynn needs to be locked up.

    The Trump election (3.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:25:57 AM EST
    How great it is, even folks that were recently quite uncerned regarding the mishandling of classified material are now out to hold the administration's feet to the fire.

    Parent
    ROTFLMAO (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:51:59 AM EST
    You guys just can't let go of your fantasies and propaganda. Repeating a lie over and over doesn't turn it into the truth.

    Parent
    Even greater (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 12:49:19 PM EST
    Folks who were apoplectic over a tinfoil email conspiracy theory are suddenly silent about Trump's NSA unauthorized sharing of classified intelligence.

    It's almost like they never really cared about national security and their motives were entirely political.

    Parent

    Entirely political motives... (none / 0) (#110)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 01:15:35 PM EST
    alotta that sh*t going around my brother...and I'm not just talking about elected officials.

    Parent
    How (none / 0) (#88)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:41:57 AM EST
    great it is, even folks that were quite concerned with Putin's behavior are now willing to look the other way.

    Parent
    Sorry, I don't know why all those funny marks (none / 0) (#3)
    by desertswine on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 02:01:21 PM EST
    are in that comment.

    That's ok D-Wine (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 02:05:15 PM EST
    It kinda fits...many more questions than answers in these surreal days.

     

    Parent

    "Help me - I'm a goner." (none / 0) (#8)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 03:30:52 PM EST
    The National Transportation Safety Board today released the bridge audio transcripts of the last horrifying hours of the doomed container ship S.S. El Faro, which sailed directly into the path of Hurricane Joaquin and sank off the Bahamas on October 1, 2015.

    Per the NTSB transcript, Capt. Michael Davidson twice rejected recommendations from crewmembers on the ship's bridge that the El Faro return to port in Jacksonville, FL to wait out the storm. Instead, he appears to have sought to alter the ship's course in an ultimately futile attempt to somehow skirt the hurricane's edges on her way to San Juan, PR.

    It was an incalculable risk on Capt. Davidson's part in the face of a major Category 3 storm, and it proved fatal for both his ship and its entire 33-person crew. This tragedy was likely an avoidable and unnecessary one.

    My thoughts today are with the families and friends of the El Faro crew.

    The CIA (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 06:40:19 PM EST
    has now found a direct link to Putin with regards to the hacking. He wanted Trump to win because of the sanctions Hillary negotiated.

    BTAL requires (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Towanda on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 06:58:20 PM EST
    that you post all of the CIA's evidence.  

    It's okay to do so; we all have top security clearance.

    Parent

    NBC news (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:36:33 PM EST
    reported it tonight and Trump probably knew it was coming because he attacked them. There's a direct link to Putin now. Harry Reid said they have intelligence linking the Trump campaign to Putin also. Manafort? Carter? I guess we will find out.

    Parent
    So petty (1.00 / 4) (#12)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:10:29 PM EST
    You appear to be very much in one of the first 4 stages of grief.

    As to Ga6th's post.  It is so old news that there was resentment towards Clinton's actions/comments relating to the Russian election.

    Parent

    Good lord (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:30:40 PM EST
    what a smarmy condescending comment. I know Republicans are not concerned in the least about Putin and his hacking. Actually it's amazing how much they are embracing and defending Putin.

    Parent
    Oh grow up (2.33 / 3) (#17)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:56:10 PM EST
    Your postings here boarder on the absurd.

    Go read time.com report on Putin and Clinton regarding the 2011 Russian elections.  She poked the bear and he poked back.  Nothing to do with Trump being a Serbian candidate much less a Putin stooge as you toss out so liberally.  

    I spend my entire USAF career during the cold war - the then Soviets and now Russia under former KGB Putin is not a friend of myself or the Republican party.  

    Your McCarthy-ism is getting ridiculous.

    Parent

    So you're (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:04:56 PM EST
    okay with Putin doing what he did because Clinton stood up to Putin?

    The intelligence community disagrees with you regarding Trump. I guess you've forgotten about all Trump's ties to Russia.

    McCarthyism? ROTFLMAO.

    Why is the GOP attempting to cover all this up? It seems to me if there was no evidence they would be glad to have an independent panel investigate it. Nancy Pelosi has suggested that it be taken out of the hands of congress as to take the politics out of it.

    Parent

    No one (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:09:36 PM EST
    Said they are ok with it. You are just spouting off that all Republicans are ok with it. Republicans want to track down the source, and the how.
    Well, all except The Donald, lol.

    You are pulling off what Putin wanted, discrediting democracy.
    The election is over, Madame Sec said to respect the vote after The Donald said he would, if he won. Now Madame Sec said that even after all the Wikileaks info was already out there.
    So take Madame Sec to heart.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:16:49 PM EST
    Trevor outside of McCain and Graham who want a search for the truth the other Republicans appear to be attempting to cover it up. Ryan is trying to have it both ways saying the Russians are bad but we shouldn't investigate.

    Has it ever occurred to them that since Putin hacked some of their accounts too that he might have some good blackmail material on them?

    Putin is the one discrediting democracy and you guys are letting him. You have been spouting the Putin propaganda on this blog yourself. No one can trust the integrity of the election process with Putin's hacking.

    The good news is Trump is the weakest most disliked president elect in the country's history. And that happened even with all the help Putin gave him.

    Parent

    This is old news (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:19:10 PM EST
    Washington (CNN)Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell broke with President-elect Donald Trump over Russia on Monday, saying he supports a congressional investigation into findings that Russian hackers attempted to influence the election.

    "Let me just speak for myself: The Russians are not our friends," McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, told reporters at a Monday morning news conference.
    .
    House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wisconsin, took the same position as McConnell.
    "Any foreign intervention in our elections is entirely unacceptable," Ryan said in a statement.

    Parent

    Ho-hum old news.. (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:37:20 PM EST
    Yes, it's not like we're talking about the  Clinton emails, that were worth dredging up and parsing and reparsing and beating to death for months on end, as if the fate of the Republic hung in the balance.

    I mean, McConnell was talking about this on Monday. Talk about ancient history. Time to move on sore losers.

    Parent

    From (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:23:28 PM EST
    your same article

    Though he supported calls for an investigation into Russian hacking, McConnell poured cold water on the idea -- which McCain had proposed -- of a select committee to investigate Russian hacking


    Parent
    And? (none / 0) (#26)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:26:56 PM EST
    There will be a Congressional investigation

    Parent
    Attempting (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:38:38 PM EST
    to politicize something that shouldn't be politicized and attempting to control is what McConnell thinks he is doing. However things are going to leak out of the findings. Do you really think the GOP is going to honestly investigate their own party? McCain and Graham do not think the GOP is capable of doing that and it seems to me if you really are concerned about democracy you would not want the same people who benefited from Putin's hacking leading an investigation. We need a search for the truth not some crack pot nonsense McConnell is about to throw out there.

    Parent
    Too late (none / 0) (#34)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:43:12 PM EST
    You are pulling off what Putin wanted, discrediting democracy.  The election is over, Madame Sec said to respect the vote after The Donald said he would, if he won. Now Madame Sec said that even after all the Wikileaks info was already out there.
    So take Madame Sec to heart.

    The Cheetoh and his supporters did that months ago, when they started claiming (with zero evidence) that the election was "rigged".  He also did it in 2012, when he called for a "revolution" when he thought that Obama won without winning the popular vote.  

    BTW - Only a few Republicans have gone on record supporting an investigation - and those that have want one that they can control.  But it's nice you think that means they want to "track down the who and the how" (omitting the "why", naturally).

    Parent

    Because Clapperhimself (none / 0) (#38)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:46:28 PM EST
    Said they will not know the why, unless they actually have someone who actually planned the hack.

    The CIA leaker was just guessing

    Parent

    FYI - that wasn't just the "CIA leaker" (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:54:49 PM EST
    That was the consensus view of the CIA contained in their intelligence assessment as reported by the "leaker".

    Parent
    Oh, no, (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:49:36 PM EST
    they've caught some of them already. link

    Parent
    "Guessing" - heh (none / 0) (#40)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    Is that what they call intelligence assessments based on facts, now?

    Turns out that a doctor's diagnosis and an engineer's design are just "guesses".

    Heh.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#41)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:50:41 PM EST
    Thats what Clapper and the FBI both said

    Parent
    No it's not (none / 0) (#48)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:03:58 PM EST
    Which is why you always use your own, spinning "paraphrases", rather than actual quotes.  Do you want me to pull up Clapper's actual words from several weeks ago.  It's really quite easy to do.

    Parent
    Clapper (none / 0) (#52)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:07:33 PM EST
    Asked about Russia and Wikileaks, Mr. Clapper said, "As far as the WikiLeaks connection, the evidence there is not as strong and we don't have good insight into the sequencing of the releases or when the data may have been provided. We don't have as good insight into that.


    Parent
    See - you CAN do it (none / 0) (#54)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:11:23 PM EST
    Now see if you can tell the difference between what you claimed Clapper said and what he actually said several weeks ago before the CIA intelligence assessment briefing.

    It's not hard.

    Parent

    Yes, a red under every bed (none / 0) (#30)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:39:41 PM EST
    That's what you sound like.  See Trevor's comment below.  

    Parent
    Support (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:44:20 PM EST
    a search for the truth then. Support an independent panel investigating. I have to say though Vichy Republicans are amazing to watch.

    Parent
    I love how conservatives (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:54:45 PM EST
    suddenly seem to have a problem with red-baiting -- even though this has nothing to do with actual, historical red-baiting.

    It reminds me of Mr Support The Troops himself celebrating Trump's alleged opposition to the Iraq invasion, on another thread recently.


    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#33)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:42:00 PM EST
    Putin is laughing.

    He has his stooges,

    And it is the people running around around screaming Putin Stooges

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:46:00 PM EST
    Trevor it is people like you who spent a lot of time at this blog spreading Putin propaganda. You bought into reams and reams of his propaganda and repeated it over and over here. Just go ahead and own it. You did do it.

    Parent
    He does indeed (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:46:06 PM EST
    ... and their the same people who pushed the faux email "scandal" for the past two years, among other tinfoil CTs.  Not to mention the biggest, orangest stooge of them all.

    Parent
    Yeah - nothing to see hear (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:13:33 PM EST
    All Putin was doing was "poking back" ...

    ... by interfering and manipulating our election.

    No biggie ... just a little tit for tat.

    Oy.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:10:36 PM EST
    Is it "old news" that Putin was involved in manipulating the US election?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Excatly what did (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:51:17 PM EST
    Putin do?

    There are claims - which you and others will poo-poo due to the source that the Podesta's emails were provided by an internal DNC/Dem source due to their feelings that the primaries were "rigged" for Clinton.

    Additionally, there is yet one here who admits that the current administration knew about these supposed hacks well before the election and chose to do nothing.  Trump, Ryan, McConnell are not in the executive branch that controlled the CIA, NSA, FBI or any other resource that could have been brought to bear to counter this alleged hack/attack.  Where's the outrage against those in power who should/could have acted?

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:00:13 PM EST
    plenty of people are mad at Obama for not coming out with it in September when he first found out about it. McConnell of course wasn't going to say anything about it because Putin was helping the GOP. The CIA did say that Putin was attempting to interfere in the election and there were many articles talking about Putin's support of the alt-right in Europe and here in the US. Of course the alt-right candidate would be Trump.

    The whole rigged thing was part of the Putin propaganda scheme. It was to split the Bernie supporters off and it apparently worked with them. In case you didn't notice Trump was always screaming about things being "rigged" too.

    Parent

    Actually Ga6th (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:05:29 PM EST
    You should be venting your spleen at Obama, Clapper and all the other currently in power individuals since - they are/were in a position to do something.  Especially since you appear to have ALL the facts that Russia/Putin did all those evil acts.  To give all those in power a pass is pure hypocrisy.

    Parent
    You make (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:14:33 PM EST
    me laugh.

    Let's just have an independent investigation to find all the facts. Okay? Would you support that? They all would have to answer the questions.

    The GOP cannot do it because they have shown that they are too cowardly and too craven.

    Parent

    Plenty of people - Ga6th (none / 0) (#62)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:33:58 PM EST
    You are completely avoiding the facts.  The executive branch controls all the resources to act on a such a matter.  Neither Ryan, McConnell or Trump had any authority to take any actions.  To argue otherwise is pure hot air and deflection.

    Parent
    I said (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:02:37 PM EST
    would you support an independent investigation. You did not answer.

    Parent
    Define "independent" (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:19:46 PM EST
    I dare tou.

    Parent
    Out of the hands (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:06:42 AM EST
    of congress.

    Parent
    Huh??? (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:40:00 AM EST
    Out of the hands of Congress?

    Who?

    Remember Plame?? And Fitzgerald??? The SP who knew the answer but prosecuted Libby anyway?

    I think that is what you want.

    Parent

    Nobody said (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:50:23 AM EST
    anything about a special prosecutor Jim. An independent panel that is supported by Republicans and Democrats. It has to be moved out of congress because too many people in congress have probably been tainted by this. Paul Ryan's PAC accepted Russian propaganda and used it in their ads. McConnell knew about this and kept quiet.

    Parent
    GA, you do understand (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:36:29 PM EST
    That we have a Justice Dept and a Congress and all kinds of laws and procedures.

    You have gone over the edge.

    Parent

    "There are claims" - heh (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:13:48 PM EST
    There "are claims" that the earth is flat and the moon landings were staged.  They're just as credible.

    But you can have specifics right after you join the CIA and demonstrate a need to know them.

    Parent

    McConnell (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:20:08 PM EST
    knew about it and so did Ryan and Comey. They just didn't say anything because Putin was helping them. So while Obama should have said something the silence of the GOP speaks volumes too.

    Parent
    There was no outrage (3.00 / 2) (#45)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:57:28 PM EST
    A week before the election, and all the Wikileaks info was already out there.
    Because they knew Madame Sec was going to win in a landslide.
    This just makes them look like very sore losers, all of these complaints should have registered prior to the election. Madame Sec should have said the election is rigged, before the election. She had all this information prior to the election, but now they are crying?
    Putin Stooges, doing his work for him.

    Parent
    You weren't paying (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:04:03 PM EST
    attention because you were too busy pushing Putin propaganda on this blog. Yes, there was outrage. Most of it was directed at Comey who by the way knew about Russian interference also but did not care enough to not attempt to help Putin also. I called it a number of times and you were insistent that Putin had nothing to do with anything. Don't attempt to gaslight people on this blog.

    Parent
    Ahhh, but, if... (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:01:32 PM EST
    Madame Sec. had taken the position that the election was rigged - how would that square with the outrage that Trump was threatening the core of our democracy when he said "would wait to see the results" before he conceded.  

    Quick the corner to be paint oneself into.

    Parent

    Seems to me (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:18:39 PM EST
    Trump yelling rigged over and over actually helps us make our case against him. Hey, Trump said it is rigged, shouldn't we check that out? He said votes weren't counted. Shouldn't we recount every state then?

    Parent
    Need some help understanding? (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:23:33 PM EST
    Because they're entirely consistent.

    1.  She's never claimed the election was "rigged".  Pointing out that Russia interfered with our election by manipulating it is based on actual facts and evidence.

    2.  Trump didn't just say he would "wait to see the results".  He falsely claimed the election was "rigged" and that there was massive voter fraud without absolutely no evidence.  His attacks on the core of our democracy were based on tinfoil, conspiracy theories.

    Let me know if you need any more help.

    Parent
    No help needed (1.00 / 3) (#61)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:31:04 PM EST
    You need to read more closely.

    1.  "If" she said - which was the the point.  Again, there has been zero hard evidence that is the case.  No matter how much you want to repeat the claim.

    2.  Go back and review what was his answer when asked point blank in interviews.  If you want to take stump speech comments from the dais - then they (politicians) should be hanged for their falsehoods.


    Parent
    So your actually trying ... (5.00 / 4) (#80)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:13:34 AM EST
    ... to compare something you're imagining her saying  (which she never said) to something Trump actually/falsely claimed, while dismissing and excusing his false claims because they didn't happen during an interview.

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    Parent

    Ha. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Towanda on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:23:21 PM EST
    This is calling you out for your foolishness on that previous thread, if in vain hope that you would not go blogclogging here again.

    This is not petty; this is an attempt for us to be allowed to have a good discussion on this important topic, rather than have you blow it up again.

    Nor is this grief -- other than giving you grief for getting in the way of that discussion, again and again. But go ahead, blow up the blog, and then maybe you'll move on to screw up some other site.

     

    Parent

    What a snotty comment (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:01:46 AM EST
    You really come here to talk trash and rub it in.  

    I do not know why Mama Bear puts up with you guys.  You add nothing to the discussion; indeed, usually distract from otherwise interesting discussion.  If I had the power, I would have zapped you guys a long time ago.  I don't come here to here Fox News talking points.    

    Parent

    Frankly, I wouldn't mind it a bit (none / 0) (#13)
    by Peter G on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:13:24 PM EST
    if GA6 would post a link, so I could evaluate for myself the reliability of her source, rather than just post an assertion for which she clearly has no personal knowledge.

    Parent
    Here you (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 07:28:40 PM EST
    go

    Two senior officials with direct access to the information say new intelligence shows that Putin personally directed how hacked material from Democrats was leaked and otherwise used. The intelligence came from diplomatic sources and spies working for U.S. allies, the officials said.


    Parent
    I don't buy that Trump (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:26:24 PM EST
    has some sort of quid pro quo relationship with Putin. To me it's more likely that the Russian endgame is that they'd simply prefer that a group of in-over-their-heads, fumbling incompetents be in charge here in the U.S.

    The fact that the American right is reactionary and tends to be aquiescent to traditional authority, is just an added cultural bonus from the Putin regime's point of view.

    I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear what Putin says about Trump in private. Probably not that much different than what someone like Netanyahu says about him.

    Parent

    And what do you think (none / 0) (#27)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:31:16 PM EST
    He says about Obama?

    Parent
    That despite all his faults (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:39:49 PM EST
    and deficient p*ssy-grabbing abilities, he was a statesman.

    Parent
    Dang... (none / 0) (#32)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 08:41:12 PM EST
    A twofer.  Both agreeing with Jondee and giving a 5 rating.   What's this world coming to??  I must be one of those evil Putin supporting Marxist Socialists.  LOL

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:06:33 PM EST
    there's a great benefit to having Trump as President for Putin. Remember Trump changed the GOP platform to be more Putin friendly. He also wants to undo the sanctions that Hillary put on Russia and he supports Putin's move in Crimea. There's a lot of geopolitical reasons that Putin would want Trump in office. Besides that Trump has been effusive with his praise of Putin.

    Parent
    When your source doesn't use (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:32:26 PM EST
    qualifiers let me know.

    U.S. intelligence officials now believe with "a high level of confidence" that Russian President Vladimir Putin became personally involved in the covert Russian campaign to interfere in the U.S. presidential election, senior U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News.

    But since you seem to like speculation.

    With respect to potential computer intrusion by hostile actors, we did not find direct evidence that Secretary Clinton's personal e-mail domain, in its various configurations since 2009, was successfully hacked. But, given the nature of the system and of the actors potentially involved, we assess that we would be unlikely to see such direct evidence. We do assess that hostile actors gained access to the private commercial e-mail accounts of people with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from her personal account. We also assess that Secretary Clinton's use of a personal e-mail domain was both known by a large number of people and readily apparent. She also used her personal e-mail extensively while outside the United States, including sending and receiving work-related e-mails in the territory of sophisticated adversaries. Given that combination of factors, we assess it is possible that hostile actors gained access to Secretary Clinton's personal e-mail account.

    Link

    IOW Clinton allowed Putin to read classified material.

    Do you agree that she and Trump should be cell mates???

    Parent

    Shorter Jim: (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 12:56:59 AM EST
    LINK. FYI, the FBI's own report refuted Comey's speculation about the Clinton Foundation server possibly being hacked by an outside party. It wasn't, so stop trying to change the subject.

    Parent
    Too bad (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:41:57 AM EST
    Comey is the FBI.

    Parent
    My views on the Russian hacking/interference (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    are different.

    What are the rules? I assume there aren't any. Even if there were, would they be followed?

    In this day and age of hacks and cyber attacks, should we really be surprised that the Russians, or Chinese, or independents, or even the US, engages in hacking the computer systems of US companies, individuals and the government? I am not surprised.

    Given longstanding espionage, spying, intelligence gathering, etc., as well as interference with the governments of other countries, including by the US, why is it surprising, or especially horrible, that the Russians or Putin might do what some think they did?

    Was it okay for the US to listen to Merkel's phone calls?

    Would it be "illegal" or horrible if Putin had made public statements against Hillary and say she shouldn't be elected?

    Was it okay for Hillary to say what she said about Russia, which supposedly irked Putin? Was that acceptable "interference" in Russian politics? It was certainly fine with me.

    I'm all for full investigation. I'm all for the proper response. I am enjoying the news and discussion. However, I think it's just a fact of life in the modern technology world.

    Was it okay for Snowden to steal and release all the information he did? Did or could that have interfered with the election process or favored one candidate over another?

    There is alot of outrage now, but I tend to think it's being driven in part by Dems who can't believe Trump won.


    Parent

    The outrage (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 10:54:08 AM EST
    is about Putin. I was against Putin and called it months ago before the first vote was issued. The fact that the GOP is so pro-Putin is troubling to say the least. And when I was calling it conservatives on this blog were attacking me as a conspiracy theorist even though Putin being involved in this election was reported back in October. Hillary even pointed out that Trump was a Putin puppet in one of the debates. This is not new information. The difference now is the press is actually reporting on it. There should have been this outrage from the press back in October when the story first broke. IT IS the story of this election and the fact that the press was gas lighted by Trump and his campaign is to their eternal shame.

    The really troubling part is the Republican behavior in all this. They are perfectly fine it seems with Putin interfering as long it helps them. Gotta love them Vichy Republicans.

    Parent

    Where's your support for your statement (none / 0) (#145)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:27:17 PM EST
    that the "GOP is so pro-Putin"? I'm not aware of that. Trump, perhaps yes. Some repubs, perhaps yes. But the GOP is so pro-Putin. Doesn't sound right to me.

    Parent
    My views are different (none / 0) (#111)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 01:20:42 PM EST
    There is a lot of excusing/minimizing of Russian hacking and interference in our election right now, but I tend to think it's being driven in part by Republicans who are happy Trump won and couldn't care less about national security or the integrity of the electoral process.

    Parent
    Does anyone think that there won't be (none / 0) (#146)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:29:06 PM EST
    hacking, etc. done in future US elections? I sure don't. It's going to be a fact of life. Maybe the head of the Dem party and others should get some cyber security training in the future.

    Parent
    Nope - strawman "questions" (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:38:19 PM EST
    There probably will be, and they should increase security.  

    All of  which has absolutely nothing to do with your failed attempts to rationalize, justify and excuse the Russian hacking in this election.

    Parent

    I didn't ever try to rationalize Russian (none / 0) (#163)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:26:34 PM EST
    interference, nor did I support it, nor did I support Russia or Putin. Nice try. You have no argument or substance. Russian and other interference is just a fact of life. Hope the US responds. However, you and everyone else are just going to have to deal with it.

    Putin is a huge problem. Obama should have responded better long ago. He let Putin push him around.

    Where were you when Putin was pushing Obama around?

    Parent

    Many crimes are "facts of life" (none / 0) (#173)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 06:08:03 AM EST
    Some people choose to defend and rationalize the criminal behavior by blaming the victim.  I was right here,  mocking their attempts to do so.

    BTW - Speaking of a "lack of substance", other than attacking Obama's foreign policy,  you never actually say what you think he should have done in Iraq or Syria.  I wonder why that is ...

    Parent

    There was hacking in the 2004 election (none / 0) (#149)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:34:23 PM EST
    An independent (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 05:02:18 AM EST
    commission investigated Ohio in 2004 and two people went to jail for election fraud. I would be glad to have an independent commission check into election hacking in the 2016 election. Would you?

    Parent
    Now you have joined (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 08:18:24 AM EST
    That is when the vote shift happened, not predicted by the exit polls, that led to Bush's unexpected victory. Connell died a month and a half after giving this deposition in a suspicious small plane crash.

    Link

    the same types as those who tells us that Hillary has had all these people killed.

    including a bombshell email chain indicating that top federal intelligence agents admitted that Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster and Ron Brown
    .

    Link

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#178)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 08:51:03 AM EST
    Jim. This is an investigation done by the GAO not some silly person that died in a plane crash. You're the one shopping conspiracy theories not me.

    Parent
    We talked about the US eavesdropping ... (none / 0) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 06:54:09 PM EST
    Green26: "Was it okay for the US to listen to Merkel's phone calls?"

    ... of the German chancellor contemporaneously when it was first disclosed nearly two years ago. And if I remember correctly, the general consensus around here was that: (a) It was a terrible thing to do to an ally like Germany; and (b) The United States should not have done it.

    So, why bring it up now in this present context of Russian interference in our recently concluded election, if not to offer it up as a possible exculpatory excuse for the Kremlin's obvious meddling? Because it's not, for the simple fact that the former has absolutely nothing to do with the latter.

    So, if that was not your intent, please clarify. Aloha.

    Parent

    Didn't (none / 0) (#133)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:03:41 PM EST
    Obama try to tilt the last Israeli election. Additionally US funds were given to the Netanyahu  opposition.
    And Obama weighed in on the Brexit vote also.

    All attempts by a foreign nation to change a election.

    Oh, both unsuccessful as well.

    Parent

    The answer to your "question" (none / 0) (#140)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:23:16 PM EST
    No, he didn't.

    But your comparison of Obama's expression of his opinion to illegal hacking by the Russians was pretty funny.

    Parent

    Uh (none / 0) (#151)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:34:29 PM EST
    Yes he did.

    So interfering in a countries elections is all right if it is out in the open.

    Well, the election itself was not rigged, all the votes were counted accurately.

    So the problem is that voters had additional information not meant to be shared, but accurate information.
     Funny, no one was screaming about Wikileaks the week before, the day before the election. Everyone was ready to ACCEPT the results of the election.

    Although the US should plan some retaliation if they can definitely prove Russian government involvement, although Assange today insisted that Russia did not give Wikileaks the Podesta e mails, that no state gave them the e mails.

    Parent

    Uh - no he didn't (none / 0) (#155)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:43:44 PM EST
    Read the link.  Facts are a lot harder than silly CTs.

    BTW - Your comparison of Obama expressing his opinion to Russian hacking is laughable.  One is entirely legal and the other is entirely illegal.  It's like comparing someone making a withdrawal at a bank to someone robbing the bank and then saying, "Hey, ... they're both taking money out of the bank!"

    Too funny.

    Parent

    IDK (none / 0) (#158)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:49:53 PM EST
    Most countries do not appreciate anyone interfering in their elections, legally or illegally.

    But the vote count was accurate, as was the information leaked. And what was leaked was not that big a deal, it reflected more on the DNC than  the candidate.

    It resembles a lot of flailing around, instead of getting down to the real business of why from 2008  the Dems had the Presidency, Senate and House, and now none of the above.
    In addition to the even deeper losses across the state elections

    Parent

    "Interfering" - heh (none / 0) (#161)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:56:47 PM EST
    Well - at least you dropped that ridiculous analogy.

    The rest of your post is just more of the same, silly rightwing (and irrelevant) talking points.  But I guess if all you can do - apart from trying to defend the Russians - is to divert and distract from a failed and false argument, work with what you've got.

    Parent

    I recall little outrage in the US (none / 0) (#142)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:23:46 PM EST
    over the Merkel eavesdropping. Maybe a bit on TL.

    Parent
    Green26: "I recall little outrage in the US over the Merkel eavesdropping. Maybe a bit on TL."

    ... expressed in the U.S. over the electronic surveillance of the German government, including from President Obama himself, albeit well after the fact and only upon our country being caught with our pants down. But that's neither here nor there. I didn't have a problem with anything else you said. And I agree that this matter is of such vital improtane that it needs to be investigated thoroughly and dispassionately. Let the chips fall where they may.

    But in order to even get there, Republicans need to stop acting like Vichy France in 1940, which means that they best realize here that the Russians are not our friends, nor do they have the GOP's best interests at heart. And you know, I find it terribly disappointing to even have to point that out, given that it's something over which I had never before contemplated having to admonish them.

    Because now that the Kremlin has proved itself capable of targeting the Democratic Party for their own ends, nothing will stop them from eventually doing the same to the GOP, should ever the situation and opportunity present themselves.

    Our domestic political squabbles really need to stop at the water's edge. Instead, the accumulated evidence is suggesting that Trump & Co. openly curried favor with a malevolent foreign party, and then looked the other way as that party actively took their side in an election campaign.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    You need to consider limited the length of (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Green26 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:28:33 PM EST
    your posts. Too long. Doubt that many even read them. Consider some brevity.

    Parent
    Green, you have it backwards. (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by fishcamp on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 12:10:47 PM EST
    While some of Donald from Hawaii's comments are long they are always valuable and read enthusiastically by most of us.  He has a phenomenal command of both history and politics.  

    You, on the other hand, continually post comments about subjects that have previously been discussed days before.  You also try and camouflage your views with smarmy straw man questions.  While I do sometimes appreciate a few of your comments, you are basically a strange type of troll.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 03:00:22 PM EST
    The type of troll who says, "I voted for Obama and Clinton, BUT, blah blah blah blah.."

    In some ways, very much like the guy who says "let me just remind you all that I'm a social liberal, BUT, blah blah blah blah.."

    Neither passes the smell test.

    Parent

    And here I thought that he/she was (none / 0) (#197)
    by desertswine on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 03:43:49 PM EST
    a 19 year old Macedonian kid.

    Parent
    Meringue, meet Filling. (none / 0) (#201)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 05:31:03 PM EST
    The Kremlin (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 05:27:56 AM EST
    Has always targeted US political parties and companies for cyber warfare. This was not their first rodeo. Just their most publicized.
    Yes, during the election season, the actual act of cyber warfare was not played up, most likely because of the content of the released e mails.

    But any countermeasures would have been up to the Obama Administration. Russia took the N Korea Sony hack and upped the ante.

    And I think, or hope, that  we will design repercussions for any future nations hoping to wreak havoc with cyberwarfare

    Parent

    The Kremlin (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 06:04:41 AM EST
    finally has their guy going into the white house. I guess they are high fiving and saying mission accomplished. And the Vichy Republicans cheer him on.

    Parent
    See if you can tell ... (none / 0) (#109)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 01:11:05 PM EST
    ... the difference between sheer, fact-free speculation (i.email. Comey's statement that it's "possible" that someone hacked her account with absolutely zero evidence it happened) and an intelligence assessment based on actual facts.

    It's really quite easy.

    Parent

    "absolutely zero evidence it happened" (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by mm on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:36:16 PM EST
    Director Comey engaged the full resources of the Federal Bureau of Investigation desperately trying to find evidence, any evidence, that the former president's private server had been hacked.

    This was always a scandal in search of something scandalous to hang on her.  After all the smoke cleared, and it became obvious she did not do anything illegal and her predecessors had similarly used personal email for daily routine work, they were desperate to find something to embarrass her with.

    I would wager a good part of the reason Comey unnecessarily dragged the investigation out as long as he did was his frustration in not finding any evidence of hacking.

    I would also say, given the amount of time, expense and energy expended by our nation's premier investigatory agency, we can say pretty positively that the evidence now shows it wasn't hacked.

    That's what the whole pitiful circus of an investigation was reduced to.

    And then, even when he knew the efforts expended by his agency had uncovered nothing, he went out there in front of the country and insinuated it probably happened anyway.

    Then, there was Comey's entirely speculative and self-contradictory assertion that Hillary Clinton probably got hacked, because she wasn't using a system that was even as secure as a Gmail-type account, and even though he found no evidence of this, he expected to find no evidence of this, because hackers are so sophisticated, except he did find evidence of intrusion on other people's Gmail-type accounts, which he just said were more secure than Hillary's:

    LINK

    Parent
    You can't look at a computer, server, (none / 0) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 11:46:28 PM EST
    or phone that has been hammered into pieces.

    And yes, they had credible evidence.

    Question.

    If you think the Russians hacked into the DNC's email system...

    Why didn't they hack into Hillary's??

    Parent

    credible eveidence? (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by mm on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 06:41:40 AM EST
    where?

    a lot of evidence attempts were made.

    no evidence any were successful.

    How come we haven't seen any of these secret personal emails?

    Parent

    Let us see if we can get a small bit of logic (none / 0) (#189)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 01:08:44 PM EST
    into the conversation. From your comment:

     

    ...here was Comey's entirely speculative and self-contradictory assertion that Hillary Clinton probably got hacked, because she wasn't using a system that was even as secure as a Gmail-type account,...

    So we have hackers hacking away at the DNC's account and succeeding...

    And we have hackers who tried to hack and didn't hack into the RNC, because it was to secure..per the FBI..

    But, they didn't try and hack into the email account of the person who was widely expected to be the next president of the US....

    Really?????

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by FlJoe on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 01:51:55 PM EST
    logical construct enables the connection between desire and success? I would love to date Scarlett Johansson, but it ain't going to happen.

    I am quite sure that there are plenty of hackers who would love to get into Comey's email account, does that mean we should assume that the FBI's server have been hacked? That's where yours and Comey's "logic" would lead us.

    Given the fact that the FBI found zero evidence of hacking and zero emails from her private server have seen the light of day, real logic would suggest that it was not hacked.

    Parent

    You aren't the Russians (none / 0) (#193)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 02:19:56 PM EST
    and Scarlett Johnsson isn't Hillary's email server.

    So your analogy is false.

    But the bottom line, which blows all the claims that Putin didn't release emails from the RNC because he wanted to aid Trump is this.

    The FBI said someone tried but couldn't get in.

    But the real deal is this.

    Countries have spied on each other since Biblical times.... Remember Rahab;

    1 She hid the Hebrew spies (Joshua 2:1-7) Bible text below A woman in ancient Jericho, Rahab the prostitute, saved two spies who had been sent by Joshua to gauge the defences of the city.


    Parent
    Sorry you (none / 0) (#198)
    by FlJoe on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 03:51:20 PM EST
    are the one who tried to equate desire with success.

    You and the FBI(?) seem 100% sure that they did not hack the RNC yet you seem quite confident that Hillary's was hacked even though no evidence was found, If these alleged "super hackers" were able to hack Hillary's server without leaving finger prints then there is no server in the world that can be declared un-hacked (that pesky logic thing again).

    Parent

    you want to talk logic? (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by mm on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 02:28:19 PM EST
    let's talk logic.

    Secretary Clinton was crucified for not using state.gov email, an email system that  

    Federal law enforcement, intelligence and congressional officials briefed on the investigation say the hack of the State email system is the "worst ever" cyberattack intrusion against a federal agency. The attackers who breached State are also believed to be behind hacks on the White House's email system, and against several other federal agencies, the officials say.

    So, the FBI expended vast resources trying to prove Secretary Clinton was careless for not using the state department email system which was less secure than her own private server.  Figure that one out.

    Russian hackers, likely working for the Russian government, are suspected in the State Department hack.

    The FBI has been investigating the hacking activity.

    In part because of the Russian attack on State, U.S. intelligence officials have increased their warnings about Russian hacking activity in the U.S.

    You really are incapable of having an honest discussion.  You made a statement of fact - "And yes, they had credible evidence".

    I asked you to support that statement and instead you try to distract from the issue and just repeat your speculation apparently based on your faulty deductive reasoning.

    I didn't say there were no attempts to hack her server.  In fact I said the FBI found multiple instances of attempts, but none successful.

    You seem to be happy to accept the FBI when they said it about the RNC, even though that doesn't seem to be so clear cut:

    Russian hackers attacked email accounts linked to the Republican National Committee (RNC), according to a report late Sunday by ABC News.

    Yet as hard as they tried, they found no evidence the Clinton server was hacked and you insist it happened.

    Parent

    JimakaPPJ: "And yes, they had credible evidence. Question. If you think the Russians hacked into the DNC's email system... Why didn't they hack into Hillary's??"

    ... there were two specific attempts made by outside parties to hack the Clinton Foundation's server. And both times, the would-be intruders were thwarted when that server was immediately shut down for a period of time in response to those attempts at gaining entry.

    That's what the credible evidence actually says, Jim. You quite obviously did not bother to read either the FBI report or the IG report. Instead, you show up here armed only with a bucket of horse apples supplied by AM squawk radio hosts and Fox News squawking heads. It's hardly any wonder as to why you're misinformed.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    How Innocent is the CIA? (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by RickyJim on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:15:50 AM EST
    I've read Timothy Weiner's "Legacy of Ashes" which details the CIA's involvement is trying to steer foreign elections since World War II.  Can we assume that this activity has stopped and that under Obama it hasn't happened?  I think the official US response to the Russian intrusion has been muted because the Russians have evidence that the CIA has done similar things in their sphere of influence.  What's sauce for the goose ...

    Parent
    MAGA # 3 (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by vicndabx on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:53:39 PM EST
    it's ok to let your enemies eff with you if you did it to them first. #WINNNING!

    Parent
    Not OK... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 03:18:16 PM EST
    but what right do we have to b*tch about foreign influence when we the people's CIA has been fixing elections, supporting brutal dictators, backing or instigating a coup d'état of duly elected governments for over 60 years around the globe.  

    One way to look at it is an unduly elected Russian assisted Trump presidency is our just karmic desserts.  I don't like it anymore than anybody, but we are reaping what we've sowed.

    Step 1 for the USA to lead a credible worldwide agreement to not f*ck with each other's elections anymore is to apologize for over 60 years of the CIA, and stop doing it ourselves immediately.  Lead by example...and if they still go low, we still go high or higher.  If it is so wrong, and I think it is, don't f&cking do it.

    Parent

    Considering I haven't sowed anything (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by vicndabx on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 03:58:07 PM EST
    I'd prefer to not be on the karmic hook for someone else's.  Especially not sowing that's 50 years old.

    You know what would be nice?  Countrymen that didn't $hit on the floor in their own house.

    Parent

    But we have Vic... (none / 0) (#180)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:59:55 AM EST
    you pay taxes, and I pay taxes...we own it, we sowed it. We all sh&t the bed.

    Parent
    "What right do we have to b*tch"? (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:25:29 PM EST
    kdog: "[B]ut what right do we have to b*tch about foreign influence when we the people's CIA has been fixing elections, supporting brutal dictators, backing or instigating a coup d'état of duly elected governments for over 60 years around the globe."

    How about the fact that the target in this instance was our own country? (Never mind the fact that this Russian cyber-intel operation specifically targeted my own party with the intent to undermine its viability.)

    As deplorable and unethical as American meddling in the internal affairs of other countries has been for 200 years going all the way back to the U.S.'s deliberate undermining of Spanish sovereignty in Florida, this particular discussion in this thread isn't about what the we as a country did to Guatemala and Iran in 1954 or to Chile in 1973, or even to the Hawaiian Kingdom in 1893.

    Simply put, because those otherwise-worthy historical topics have nothing whatsoever to do with what just happened in the here and now, any contemporaneous debate about them offers no practical solutions to our current dilemma. As such, it's best that we save that argument for another place and time.

    Rather, our immediate concern should be focused on what may possibly be the biggest preach of our country's national security and integrity in either of our lifetimes, which has real world consequences both immediate and long-term, particularly with regards to the preservation of peace in Europe.

    And if the best you can muster here in response to a politically destabilizing cyberattack upon your own country is a banal "just karmic desserts," accompanied by a nonsensical demand for a U.S. apology that you know as well as the rest of us isn't likely to happen anytime in the foreseeable future, then I suggest that you go back to your room, light some incense, fire up the bong, and zone out to some old Melanie Safka and Tim Buckley albums.

    Because in my opinion, that's about all such an opinion is presently good for -- a reason on your part to once again set a bar so high as to avoid personal commitment, and thus further preserve your own ethereal political sensibilities.

    Sorry, but "Yeah, I'm with you -- well, sorta, kinda, maybe" doesn't cut it here. If you don't want to stake a personal position, fine. But don't expect me to respect that choice when you then use the occasion to first undercut your own country by offering historical rationales to excuse the Russians for what they just did to us, and then chalk it all up to some of our own accumulated bad cosmic blooey.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I disagree... (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 10:14:08 AM EST
    Russia wasn't the most pressing nefarious influencer of our elections in this cycle or any recent cycle in my bong-toking opinion...the domestic big money influence, and fake news/a loss of an journalistically ethical fifth estate are 1 and 1A.  

    Parent
    The electoral outcome is in part a byproduct of that, along with other events such as the torrent of "fake news" and FBI Director James Comey's own dubious conduct in the waning days of the campaign. That outcome is what it is and will likely stand, absent a change of heart by at least 40 Republican electors on Monday when the Electoral College convenes to formally cast their votes.

    The specific issue here is Russian meddling in our elections. And quite honestly, I would be just as incensed had their intended victims here been GOP candidates rather than Democrats, because the very fact of their unwarranted intrusion on any party's behalf into our domestic politics constitutes a gross violation of our national sovereignty by a foreign power.

    Our own country's past bad conduct in other countries is not the immediate problem here. Further, that history should not be used to condition our response to the Russians' present conduct, nor offered as an excuse to merely shrug our shoulders and do nothing at all. To do either of those is tantamount to acquiescing to the Kremlin's actions. And that is simply unacceptable.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Muslim woman made up Trump harassment story (none / 0) (#53)
    by McBain on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:09:40 PM EST
    according to police.

    A Muslim student who said she was harassed on the subway by drunken, hate-spewing white men shouting "Donald Trump!" found herself behind bars Wednesday after telling cops she made the whole story up.

    I'm curious what the penalty will be and if it's worse for bringing someone (Trump) into the fake story.

    18 year old college student (none / 0) (#63)
    by linea on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:46:59 PM EST
    Police sources say Seweid made up the story because she didn't want to get in trouble for breaking her curfew. Her [strict Muslim parents] then allegedly shaved Seweid's head because of the incident, sources say.

    ok. there's that. i suppose im the only person who sees a problem here?

    Parent

    Obviously (none / 0) (#57)
    by BTAL on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 09:15:44 PM EST
    I'm not an avid reader of The New Republic but this was linked via realclearpolitics.com

    Long article but well worth the time.  Beyond Hope

    First paragraph is a bit brutal on Obama but the later Q/A discussion by their panel is an interesting read.  

    This one (none / 0) (#72)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 05:23:03 AM EST
    Is quite lengthy, but did lend good insight on Obama and his administration.

    http://tinyurl.com/zo5mo9y

    My President Was Black
    A history of the first African American White House--and of what came next

    By Ta-Nehisi Coates

    Parent

    For our GOP (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 14, 2016 at 10:09:25 PM EST
    trolls an article by Max Boot

    FYI he calls Trump the most pro-Russian presidential candidate in the history of the country.

    Why do I listen to Morning Joe in the wee hours (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:24:19 AM EST
    here in Portland, OR.  The discussion was on Trump's business interests as POTUS and his kids being in on the meeting yesterday with tech gurus.  The panel was arguing that Trump has to find a way so that neither he nor his family make one dollar on his presidency.  Mika (Ms. I'm now best friends with Ivanka Trump) stated, "They won't.  I can assure you they won't".  How in bed with a presidency can Mika be?  How absurd.  She then was worried about her twitter feed and stated that she was not giving her opinion, she was giving facts.

    The fact (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:27:50 AM EST
    of the matter is Trump can do whatever he wants and no one in the GOP is going to do anything about it.

    Parent
    I keep pinching myself as I feel I (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:32:44 AM EST
    must either be dreaming or have awoken in a parallel universe.

    Parent
    Cashmere, that is early for you. (none / 0) (#79)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:46:15 AM EST
    You better head on in to my old grade school for a cool one after you take a nap.  McMenimin's Kennedy brew pub is excellent as you know.  Is there one out in Gresham, Oregon?

    Parent
    Oh fishcamp... I moved from Gresham LONG ago! (none / 0) (#81)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:20:34 AM EST
    The only thing I love near Gresham is the view of Mt. Hood from Bluff Road (have you seen this view?).  I get up in the wee hours here in Portland because I work for in transistor research, and we get things started early for our experiments.  I like to get ahead on the plans for the day from home.  :)  We now live in NE Portland on 28th, between Davis and Everett .. a few blocks from Burnside.  FYI -- we have snow on the ground this morning... several inches.

    Parent
    Your neighborhood is a very nice one, Cashmere. (none / 0) (#82)
    by caseyOR on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 08:57:07 AM EST
    Lots of restaurants along 28th. I was sorry a few years ago when Chin Yen closed its doors. In my early, and much younger days, in Portland, my friends and I were frequent visitors to Chin Yen. I know it did not really fit in with the new 28th, but I miss it.

    I have been talking with friends in Portland about your weather so far this winter. Pretty miserable out there, although not as cold as it is here. With the wind chill, we will hit minus 11 today. And that storm that just dropped all that snow on you will hit us over the weekend.

    Parent

    Hi caseyOr (none / 0) (#83)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 09:15:11 AM EST
    I live on NE 29th (a block off Ne 28th....  for some reason I always say 28th!).  Yes, the restaurant scene here is amazing.  Chin Yen was a HUGE loss.  We have owned this house for 20 years now, and they made the best mu shu pork I have ever had.  We miss Chin Yen too.  Such a small world.  

    Last night, people were stuck in traffic for 5 hours due to ~2 inches of snow!  The snow here, as you know, is typically wetter than many parts of the country, and there can often be ice underneath.  Combine that with the population explosion and super heavy traffic we experience now on a daily basis, and you have a nightmare scenario.  I chose to leave Hillsboro (where I work), yesterday around noon and was able to get home and miss the nastiness...  

    Parent

    Cashmere, I saw your snow (none / 0) (#116)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 02:41:59 PM EST
    on TV this morning as a bus slid into a SUV which slid into a car.

    Back in the 50's we got frozen rain on top of snow, several years in Portland, and we used to ice skate on it.  We put our states on at the back door, and scated across the yard, down the driveway, across the sidewalk and curbing, and go down to the corner to state under the street light.  It was always at night when it was cold and spooky out.  It didn't last long since either the ice or we kids would melt down.  Big fun back then.

    Parent

    Love it fishcamp! (none / 0) (#120)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 03:34:38 PM EST
    We had freezing rain last week... just snow this week.  Last week, the freezing rain caused our very tall bamboo to come crashing down.  Fortunately, once it melted, that bamboo popped right back up.  I'll have to find a pic and post for you of a huge ice storm we had about 10 years ago.  My old Saab that I had at the time had ice on it several inches thick!  That must have been similar to what you once skated on.  

    Parent
    The cancelled press conference.. (none / 0) (#78)
    by Cashmere on Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 07:37:43 AM EST