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US Airstrikes on ISIS in Raqqa

Update: Here's a You Tube video of civilians being pulled out of the rubble (you can't see faces.) Multiple reports on Twitter say ISIS was not around, the strikes hit a Jabhat al Nusra headquarters in Kafrdiyan, and a munitions factory near near Sarmada. There are also reports of dead JaN militants in Aleppo. The communications tower was hit so there aren't any tweets coming from official ISIS sources yet. ISIS has been anticipating the strikes in Raqqa for days and moving their heavy equipment elsewhere. A lot of fighters also went to fight the Kurds in Kobane. They aren't stupid, so I'm taking the news reports of massive ISIS casualties with more than a grain of salt. There are also reports and a photo of a plane being shot down, but it does not seem not to be a U.S. plane. No confirmation yet.

Original Post

The U.S. and partners launched airstrikes in Raqqa, Syria tonight, where ISIS has its headquarters. The photo above is a shot from them. There are reports civilians were killed. Power just came back on after a 2 hour outage. [More...]

News article:

A statement from a Pentagon official said the decision to strike was made earlier today and “partner nation forces” were also involved in the action.

“I can confirm that US military and partner nation forces are undertaking military action against ISIL terrorists in Syria using a mix of fighter, bomber and Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles,” a Pentagon official said.

Those involved: Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Jordan and Qatar.

Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby said: “Given that these operations are ongoing, we are not in a position to provide additional details at this time. The decision to conduct these strikes was made earlier today by the U.S. Central Command under authorisation granted him by the commander in chief. We will provide more details later as operationally appropriate.”

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  • Display: Sort:
    The involvement of several Sunni states... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by mike in dc on Mon Sep 22, 2014 at 10:59:19 PM EST
    ...is not insignificant.  It does not guarantee success, but it is far preferable to the alternative.

    Perpetual War since 1991. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by desertswine on Mon Sep 22, 2014 at 11:45:23 PM EST
    And we're no safer. So I guess it will continue.

    According to the NYT (Sept 23), (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 11:21:07 AM EST
    weeks of airstrikes against ISIS have failed to dislodge ISIS in Iraq.   However, these airstrikes have impacted their momentum in the march to Baghdad.   Which, it seems, gives some time for other components of the plan to ripen  Key to which is the rebuilding of the Iraqi government by al Abadi so as to include Sunnis, and, thereby, give some modicum of assurances to the disenfranchised Sunnis.  A big part of the problem in dislodging ISIS is that so many of the Sunni tribes are staying aloof from the fray, or, more likely, acquiescing.

    The airstrikes in Syria seem premature, placing the military horse before the political cart.  Bombing ISIS is a little like squishing mercury--it just moves elsewhere. Although, it probably will be a boon to the Toyota pick-up truck sales division.  

    The alleged Sunni country ( Saudi, UAE, Qatar) involvement will help blunt the US lead, but in Syria the civil war is a sectarian one. Gain Sunni love, Lose Shia.  And, where is Turkey, Sunni and a member of NATO,  especially in curbing the transport of ISIS oil and hindering arms running.

     In Iraq the key is Shia including Sunnis in government; as the border is crossed into  Syria, it is the overthrow of Assad's primarily Alawite (Shia)  government by multi-Syrian Sunni rebel and tribal groups, including ISIS.   A complicated face off- involvement in Syrian civil war against the Assad government and against ISIS which is against the Assad government, and against other Syrian Sunni rebels, and with, on our team,  a few Saudi trained "moderates."  

    Maybe some of you should read (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 02:36:44 PM EST
    Digby.

    Here's a bit (hope her good grammar isn't a total turn-off):

    So, last night I noted that the array of friends and enemies in our bombing campaign in Syria is ... complicated. It's even more complicated than the fact that our close friend Saudi Prince Bandar (aka Bandar Bush) is implicated in creating ISIS as a way to defeat Assad. Today we're seeing more reports about the shadowy group called Khorasan which is allegedly even worse than ISIS which is worse than al-Qaeda which is actually the group behind Khorasan.

    According to a source familiar with the situation, U.S. officials have been familiar with Khorasan for months. And Rep. Peter King, the former Homeland Security Committee chair, said that members of Congress have "known about it for several months."
    "I'm surprised it [the name] even came out," King said. "It was supposed to be top secret, classified, and it wasn't until last week that an AP story had it in there. But we weren't supposed to talk about it."

    "The intelligence community has known about it ... [Khorasan] are extremely lethal and dangerous," King said.
    Rep. Adam Schiff, a Democratic member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said "we have been briefed on the Khorasan group for some time."

    I don't know why they have inflated the threat of ISIS over this other group which some are saying is the real threat to the west, being al Qaeda and all, but they have. (According to the article, some people doubt that this group is actually more dangerous than either ISIS or al Qaeda ... oy.) Certainly it makes little sense when you consider they have used the 2001 AUMF as their legal rationale for acting --- it specifically requires an al Qaeda connection, which they are saying is closely linked to Khorasan while the connection to ISIS is much more vague. (Remember all the blather about how al Qaeda kicked ISIS out of the clubhouse because it was too brutal?)

    Anyway, when you see this kind of contradictory and confusing rationalizing after the bombing campaign has begun, it's probably a good idea to be skeptical that it's all on the up and up. It's happening, whether we like it or not, and the American people seem to be on board.  Those videos were a master stroke.  But we really have no idea what's really going on.

    Yes, like I said - it's hard to know who or what to believe; apparently, I'm not the only person who feels that way.

    But when Clinton is President (3.67 / 3) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 03:49:26 PM EST
    You will be the last one around here running to Digby or anywhere else seeking a voice to condemn her counter terrorism actions.  When Clinton is President you will magically understand that revealing classified counter terrorism operations makes her chances of commanding a successful address of such entities that much more unlikely or risky.

    See, to me it is all the same because those that will address ISIL or Khorasan place their lives on the line whether they be Sunni, Shia, Kurdish, American, British, French, Australian, Polish, etc, etc, etc  I am okay that these people have found a way to work together to take down such evil, with so many chiefs I doubt this is rife with corruption.

    And wail away about Bandar, as if your own culture, nation, and government wasn't also saddled once with a Cheney.

    You and Digby don't really care about understanding anything about the Khorasan group though anymore than you cared to understand the makeup of the Taliban or the Pashtuns or the Haqqani network.  This wailing is all for show and is only used to justify your right to wail, even on Digby's part.

    Parent

    Saddam Hussein was every bit and more as (5.00 / 5) (#53)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:56:14 PM EST
    evil, powerful, and vicious as ISIL...and yet I still thing we were wrong to go in there and depose him.

    Why should I support this any more than I supported that?

    Parent

    Completely disagree (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    What terrorism did Saddam recently sponsor?  He had been chastised and defanged, he was terribly paranoid, couldn't sleep in the same bed more than one night he had become so paranoid.  


    Parent
    Did Saddam trumpet his goal to (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:58:32 PM EST
    obliterate us?

    Parent
    No, but he certainly had (none / 0) (#56)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:02:25 PM EST
    more capability to do so. Do you really thing ISIL is a threat to obliterate us?

    Parent
    He didn't ruffian (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:55:39 PM EST
    Come on, you know this.  The weapons inspectors said there were no WMDs and there weren't.  His military was almost all conscripted, they split the minute anything got hot.  The only forces that put up any fight was the Republican Guard and it didn't take much to take them out. Most of his bases and airfields had been destroyed by Bill Clinton.  The electrical plant at Al Asad had a giant warhead lodged in the middle of it that had yet to explode.  The base was abandoned.  The runways were bombed full of holes.  Only the Australians had the courage to take off and land there, jockeying around the holes in the runways.  He had buried all of his MiGs in the sand.  My husband was part of a scouting party that found some, the sand had completely destroyed them.  He had nothing and nobody.

    Parent
    Still, he had more weapons than ISIL (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:05:19 PM EST
    WMD or not.

    And he was not a terrorist to anyone but his own people, true.

    But I don't think ISIL is a serious threat to anyone outside that region either.

    Parent

    Recruiting from countries all over the (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:14:26 PM EST
    World, and then those members make videos about their plans to return "home" and commit acts of terror?  No threat?  Even if I agreed with that part, why would we, why should we turn a blind eye to genocide?  Everytime we have we have regretted it, and this genocide has some of our fingerprints on it.  Doing the next right thing for me does not mean I just sit back and watch the genocide show.

    We tried to stay out of it, everyone did, that only seemed to encourage them onward and into more and more horrific genocidal acts.

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


    Parent

    I just think sometimes (none / 0) (#75)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:23:44 PM EST
    good men doing the wrong thing does not help the situation either. Until there is something resembling inclusive government in that region, grievances are going to be stoked by this or that group. A political solution is necessary. Maybe I am wrong and this military solution will help get us there int he long run. Jury is out and I am skeptical.


    Parent
    You can say political solution all you (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:48:13 PM EST
    Want, but what exactly is that solution?  And while leaders are figuring that out, terrorists should be allowed to commit genocide and behead and terrorize innocent people and threaten the world?

    Parent
    Long term it is an Iraqi government (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:13:11 PM EST
    that includes all of the groups and makes them all feel they have something at stake and something to gain by being a country. Then maybe their military will fight terrorists on their turf themselves. Or maybe it is not possible and they have to break up the country into how ever many entities THEY decide. Same way with Syria.

    Of course it is hard to get there. It may never happen. How do we protect ourselves in the meantime? I guess the option we have chosen is going and blowing a bunch of people up every 2 or three years as they pop up, whack-a-mole style. I'd rather be more restrictive in who we let into the country from the Middle East - if you left the US on a US Passport and went to Syria or Iraq or Yemen, you should have a lot of 'splaining to do to get back in.  Use or global coalition to pass that kind of information around. I am fine with using our new surveillance state to do that.  

    Parent

    I agree with all that (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:22:18 PM EST
    one of the things O has done right is getting rid of Maliki first. And then there is this -

    WASHINGTON -- President Obama will preside this week over an unusual meeting of the United Nations Security Council poised to adopt a binding resolution that would compel all countries to put in place domestic laws to prosecute those who travel abroad to join terrorist organizations and those who help them, including by raising funds.


    Parent
    I think this administration is doing all it (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:50:49 PM EST
    Can to encourage a political solution. And I don't think things could be worse.  I have read critics who think we should be friends with Iran, as if you can place the responsibility for such a relationship on one entity.  Iran has a population that wants to be Americans, and religous leaders willing to kill everyone before they would allow such behavior.  That is one reason why their leaders don't have a welcome mat out for us.

    Iraq seems very much like my husband thought it would pan out.  A population cowed for so long it just needs another bully.  In sha'Allah are words that cause him to bristle, mostly because he saw Iraqis do horrible things to each other and as the living cried over the dead they would say In sha'Allah.  It means something similar to God's will, but these deaths weren't God's will, they were the will of other men....but too many can't grasp that concept.

    The most secular community has to constantly fight to survive, everyone hates Kurds except Kurds.  And American soldiers love Kurds it seems, they must share social similarities with us.  Even Turkey would love to commit some genocide there though.

    I can't believe one area can espouse so much hate.

    And how do you build a functional military out of so much loss and hate?  For how long did the people of Iraq simply hope to survive?  And they must pull pride in themselves and their country out of their arses and develop into a functional nation with a functional military?  How does such energy and order come out of wreckage?

    Parent

    Does your husband also bristle when (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 06:37:43 PM EST
    people here use the phrases "God/Jesus called them home", "God needed another angel",etc.,if someone is murdered or killed in an accident?

    In sha'Allah are words that cause him to bristle, mostly because he saw Iraqis do horrible things to each other and as the living cried over the dead they would say In sha'Allah.  It means something similar to God's will, but these deaths weren't God's will, they were the will of other men.

    Insha'Allah translates to "If God wills" or "God willing". It is used for future events. For example, if I were to say to someone, "I will see you tomorrow" the response would be "Insha'Allah".
    I have never heard people crying over the dead saying "Insha'Allah". It would make no sense.
    What they are probably saying is "Ya Allah". As in "O God" or "My dear God".

    but too many can't grasp that concept.

    I am sure the natives appreciate the condescension. Your husband might want to work on his Arabic and his cultural sensitivity.

    Parent

    You may take it as you like (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:05:37 PM EST
    My spouse is very anti-religion now, all religions.  He always questioned the need for it but serving in Iraq caused him to view religion as something that does not benefit mankind.  People can point to the "good" that comes from religion but he claims we could simply choose to do those thing without it too.  He has seen religion used to tear people apart physically and mentally.

    He said that mostly, in a time that people needed to think clearly in Iraq, he saw it confuse people and steal their personal power away from them and their ability to seek accountability for actions.

    He still sees it as the "thing" that prevents the region from experiencing true peace in their daily life.

    You can go ahead and be offended.  You have a right to that every bit as much as he has a right to his view on religion and the horror that too often comes of it in the Middle East right now.

    Parent

    I am not defending religion. (none / 0) (#97)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:34:51 PM EST
    I personally don't believe in any of them.
    But, the majority of the people in this world do. And, for many of them it is a source of strength and comfort in trying times. Sometimes it is their only source of hope and the only thing that keeps them going.

    What I objected to and was offended by was the attitude that those poor Muslim ignoramuses "just don't get it". I am pretty sure that everyone of them is aware that their loved ones were killed by another person/s and not the God that they believe in. Understanding instead of bristling would be a lot more helpful if you really wanted to win hearts and minds.

    Parent

    Personally (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:40:14 PM EST
    i think it would be better if you did not presume to tell the uniformed military how to process the horror they are subjected to.

    Parent
    I think it is pretty funny that someone (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:54:01 PM EST
    who freely shares his opinions on anything and everything under the sun, feels the need to tell me to be quiet.
    Even funnier to see that you have decided to pull a JimakaPPJ and declare that I should not be critical of someone in the military.

    Parent
    I'm very glad you are amused (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:57:47 PM EST
    BTW (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:00:52 PM EST
    one thing you haVe never seen me do is personally insult the spouse of a commenter who is actively engaged in defending my sorry a$$.

    Parent
    If that makes you feel superior, good for you. (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:45:19 PM EST
    Btw, I am glad there is someone out there you don't feel the need to insult. You've never given the impression that discretion is your strong suit.

    Parent
    Funny (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:16:30 PM EST
    How the self righteous crowd here is so easily insulted (often on other's behalf) acting as if they are on some higher plane of civility and then hurl insults.

    Talk about acting superior....  thin, very thin.

    Parent

    Question (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:22:11 PM EST
    are we witches or b!tches?

    Parent
    I Think It Switches (none / 0) (#120)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:56:39 PM EST
    Jekyll and Hyde sort of thing..  

    Parent
    Thanks, Squeak. (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:02:30 PM EST
    Reading your insults to other posters was making me feel neglected and unloved. Not good for my self-esteem. I feel so much better now.

    Thanks again. G'bye and G'night!

    Parent

    You are though (none / 0) (#113)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:38:59 PM EST
    Without being there, I presume without your skin in the game.

    I think Iraq broke my husband's heart twice. First it broke his heart because why he was there was lies and based on greed, but then that aside...to then work to help the people.

    And for whatever reason it was easier to help and work with the Kurds.  I think so many soldiers have a fondness for the Kurds because there was a positive outcome they got to be a part of.  Was it because the Kurds are less hampered by religion?  I wish I knew.  I think it may be, because it is easier to be rational when religion is light. It is not only my spouse either who has this attachment to the Kurds.  I hear it repeated over and over again from those who served in Iraq.  It's usually something pretty visceral about getting over there and helping the Kurds.

    Parent

    I think it is quite fair for him (none / 0) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:04:48 PM EST
    To feel how he feels about it.  He views it in context too.  He understands that first of all Iraqis lived under a ruthless dictator.  Add to that embargo.  We did it to defang Saddam, but the people paid the price.  Saddam continued to live in marble palaces.

    He said they were accustom to having almost no say over their lives, so many hardships upon hardships and they simply had to endure them. He often lost them rationally in problem solving and working with them.

    And I think it was heartbreaking for him, because he wanted to help.  They did not have the same concepts of their personal freedoms yet.  Particularly the women, and that is hard for him too. Those were the individuals who would suffer the worst and have no concept of a justice due them.  What was happening to them was not God's will. And the easy acceptance of God's will prevented those he worked with from understanding the human dealings that had brought everyone to certain outcomes.

    Parent

    You are missing the point again. (none / 0) (#111)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:27:23 PM EST
    I have no intention of telling your husband or anyone else how they should feel about something/anything.

    Your husband is there to do a job. Not an easy one by any means and I am sure it is incredibly frustrating for him. But, he is the professional with all the training. I am assuming condescension and intolerance are not part of that training.

    And before CaptHowdy gets his p@nties in a bunch again, let me say, I do not know your husband. I do not know how he behaves while in Iraq. I am going by your comment and it was not flattering to him, IMO.

    Parent

    I just spoke with my husband on the phone (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:45:07 PM EST
    He called to check in, and he says the phrase is used for future reference but also used in horrible crisis and loss in a way indicative of "God works in mysterious ways", and there is nothing to be done about this suffering.

    But if God is allowed to continue to work in these mysterious ways in my husband's opinion everyone will suffer forever. But you aren't to worry about that because God will sort it out.

    Parent

    vml, I guess you didn't get the (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:05:13 PM EST
    memo: today is Tracy's day to bully and beat up on people; she even has her own little crew for backup.  I kind of think of them as Witches and B!tches...

    Maybe she's missing her husband (who's in Korea, by the way, not Iraq), maybe her kid's having a tough time - who knows?  But when she gets on a tear like this, when she will brook nothing if it doesn't agree with what she thinks, when she flips from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde, I can assure you - it isn't you, it's her.

    We honor her husband's service, we admire her strength in dealing with the challenges she's talked about here, but that's not a license to roll over people like a tank.  She may forget that, but we don't have to.

    Parent

    Thanks, Anne. I noticed! (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:52:19 PM EST
    Fortunately, I am not easily bullied. I guess I did not get the memo telling me that as someone raised in the middle-east I should be submissive, easily cowed and bullied... :-).
    Honestly, I stopped reading her comments a while back. Very difficult for me because I am a compulsive reader.
    I took a break from TL during my move and just started reading again. Forgot my own rule and got sucked in!

    Btw, I am sure this is not funny to you but I laugh every time she mocks you for your grammar, spelling, punctuation...
    I just don't get how anyone can insult someone for proficiency in a language. Isn't that a sign of an educated person?
    And of course, the fact that I grew up in the middle-east means my understanding of Arabic pales in comparison to her and Capt"wiki quote"Howdy's understanding of Arabic. Mind boggling!

    I know I have said this before, but, I will say it again. I don't always agree with you but I always enjoy reading what you write.

    Another thing, I have always appreciated about you, Zorba and sj is your unfailing compassion and empathy for her hardships no matter how many times she flings cr@p at all of you.
    I wish I could say the same about myself.

    I think I need another break from TL.


    Parent

    I mocked her once (none / 0) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:05:59 PM EST
    Sorry I haven't been a laugh a minute.  I'll work on it.

    Parent
    How could my husband be (2.33 / 3) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:05:01 PM EST
    In Iraq today Anne?  We aren't supposed to have boots on the ground remember?

    I don't really think this is about honoring my husband's service.  I do think it is about being willing to understand and deal with realities and not just quickly jot off kneejerk leftwingerisms for left blogotopia.

    This is happening on our watch and some hope to wish it away, hope to kick all this down the road into someone else's lifetime of responsibility so that you don't get any on you and smudge your self righteousness, keep the reality so peripheral that your ignorance sounds insightful.

    I don't admire your strength Anne, because I don't see that you have any.  And it is a free country, you don't have to have any.  But it is okay to have some too Anne.

    When I get on a tear like this?  Hands down horror of horrors, Obama has stepped into a combat type situation.  And I'm sorry I didn't just STFU up Anne and let you have your little kneejerk Obama sux tear without any deeper thinking than puddle depth, but I didn't feel like it today.  And that's okay too.

    Parent

    Wow...how long have you been (3.33 / 6) (#125)
    by Anne on Thu Sep 25, 2014 at 07:34:10 AM EST
    waiting to fling that one, Tracy?

    You don't think I have any strength?  Is that supposed to hurt me?  Does it make you feel better about your sh!tty life to assume you've cornered the market on strength?

    Jesus.  

    Get some help.

    Parent

    One thing you aren't Anne (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 25, 2014 at 09:35:18 AM EST
    Any sort of authority on mental health.  Pretty sure you are only an authority on bookkeeping :)

    Parent
    And I just read that (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:26:18 PM EST
    In places the phrase is used as slang to avoid commitment.  So, it would seem that street language differs from book version.

    Parent
    Yes, it is sometimes used as sort of (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:42:08 PM EST
    the english version of "let's see", "let's wait and see" when you don't want to commit to something. Which would make even less sense for your husband to hear it when people are crying over the dead.

    Parent
    Wiki (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:47:14 PM EST
    The phrase also acknowledges submission to God, with the speaker putting him or herself into God's hands.


    Parent
    Isn't that exactly what I said in my (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 07:59:52 PM EST
    comment #94.
    Insha'Allah = "If God wills", "God willing".

    The phrase also acknowledges submission to God, with the speaker putting him or herself into God's hands.


    Parent
    So whats Your point (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:01:36 PM EST
    I was going to ask you the same thing (none / 0) (#109)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:07:42 PM EST
    because I was not sure what your point was with the wiki quote. But, then I thought maybe you missed my explanation the first time.

    Parent
    Missed your "explanation" (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:10:18 PM EST
    of how it makes no sense to say you are putting yourself in gods hands after the death of a loved one?

    Parent
    Thank you Captain (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:06:11 PM EST
    When were you last in Iraq? (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:05:22 PM EST
    If we are going to play stupid games... (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:36:36 PM EST
    I guess I would say I was in Iraq about the same time you were. I would also say being married to someone in the military is not the same as being in the military and does not qualify you as an expert on all things military.

    But, I do not want to go down that road with you. So, I'll say Good-bye.

    Parent

    Past regrets (none / 0) (#83)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:21:08 PM EST
    I keep thinking about Rwanda ... at the time, so many of us thought we should not get involved (even as the face of genocide stared at us)... and, now today and with many others, I regret my personal passivity while the pain played out on TV.  It is a moral culpability that I feel.  

    As the President says, there are times when we can have a marked positive effect internationally.  He emphasized, of course, acting in a smart way.  When I recall Clinton's decision to use forceful air strikes during the Bosnia-Herzegovinia conflict--in the face of the obvious genocide at the direction of Milosevic--I am reminded that the outcome can definitely be better than if left unchecked.  

    Parent

    I think we have a moral obligation to (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 05:12:59 PM EST
    Address genocide, sometimes a public vocal challenge has affect, ISIL is something very different.  And this genocide is some of our doing...at least Bush/Cheney's doing.

    ISIL gained power and had power because the infrastructure is a shambles. Stability isn't going to be as easily attainable as Bosnia.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 05:39:58 PM EST
    And, from what I have read, a lot of the leadership is from the Republican Guard...  modern day Freikorps....

    ..After 1918, the term was used for the paramilitary organizations that sprang up around Germany as soldiers returned in defeat from World War I. They were the key Weimar paramilitary groups active during that time. Many German veterans felt disconnected from civilian life, and joined a Freikorps in search of stability within a military structure. Others, angry at their sudden, apparently inexplicable defeat, joined up in an effort to put down communist uprisings or exact some form of revenge (see Stab-in-the-back myth)...

    Numerous future members and leaders of the Nazi Party had served in the Freikorps...



    Parent
    I really did think I would support this (none / 0) (#86)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:25:16 PM EST
    kind of action...until it happened and it just does not sit right with me. Maybe I am too pessimistic about it.

    Parent
    IMO you are not (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:29:21 PM EST
    you are just pessimistic enough.   If you are not pessimistic you have not been paying attention.

    Parent
    Skepticism in light of recent history (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:26:22 PM EST
    suggests sanity.  But there are reasons to be hopeful.   IMO.

    Parent
    I want to know what you think (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:34:08 PM EST
    The right thing is

    Parent
    Not all of us. (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:50:22 PM EST
    To be fair MT (none / 0) (#30)
    by CoralGables on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:18:25 AM EST
    Isn't that the pre-determined gameplan of survival for most political blogs? It was adopted from the Fox News Playbook and is now the title of Chapter One in Blog Survival 101:

    "Wailing for Clicks"

    Parent

    Well...President Clinton will at least explain (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:44:28 PM EST
    the options we face and her decisions better...explaining things is what she does best.

     

    Parent

    Crystal Ball? (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:04:44 PM EST
    Why do people imagine that Politicians will act in a way that they want them to?

    Funny.

    Parent

    Just based on past performance (none / 0) (#58)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:06:24 PM EST
    ...I'm not saying I will agree with her positions...but I am 100% certain she will explain them better.

    Parent
    That's true, she does (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:26:00 PM EST
    She is a Better Liar? (none / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:37:16 PM EST
    Heh, that too :) (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:43:45 PM EST
    She couches distasteful subject matter beautifully.  Like nobody else.  The military loves her for that :). She is a great strategist, a capacity for the occassional well dressed lie must be part of that I suppose.

    Parent
    Do you have any thoughts re Obams (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:49:35 PM EST
    de planing while holding a coffee cup and also saluting the troops. Would a non-com be busted for that?

    Parent
    Everyone would be except the President (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 02:00:00 PM EST
    The President carries the weight of the world and the whole country and all civilian concerns on their shoulders though in the military mind.  They get to salute crappy sometimes.  Did you see the photo of Dubya carrying his Scottie dog and saluting?

    Parent
    Googled Bush saluting with dog (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:03:43 PM EST
    How many photos of W Bush exist where he is saluting trying to contain his dog at the same time?  It looks like oodles.  It looks like it was a daily ritual.  That seems very disrespectful, to do that over and over and over again, not just one thoughtless act one day.

    Parent
    Dear god (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:21:37 PM EST
    I had not realized we had another "he won't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem" thing.

    But if course we do.


    Parent

    Nothing makes wingers (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:33:17 PM EST
    Orally frothy like a Democrat Usurper having a good bombing day :). We are now back to he disrespects the troops, the people who are really responsible for this GREAT day we are all having.

    He mentioned his grandmother's village at the UN too, Fox News had a group seizure.

    It wasn't enough for him to delight in standing in the church of Satan, he had to proudly admit he is from the loins of the Devil.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:49:42 PM EST
    I loved the village comment.  That must have been satisfying for him.

    Parent
    Isolationists can go eff themselves :) (none / 0) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 03:54:54 PM EST
    Oh yeah, I forget, that is their only option :)

    Just watched B Clinton w/ Jon Stewart talk about the cure for world disorder, inclusion.


    Parent

    Semper Chai (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:21:22 PM EST
    I would expect to see a discussion here (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 04:45:00 PM EST
    of the decision of the county procecutor to send the Tony Stewart case to the grand jury and the grand jury's decision not to indict Stewart.

    Parent
    maybe in an open thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 06:03:34 PM EST
    Wasn't defeating Assad... (none / 0) (#34)
    by unitron on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:15:49 AM EST
    ...already going on?

    Perhaps not with overnight success, but as indicated in this article, it was already underway before ISIS came along.

    Maybe what Bandar and the Saudis fear is really a non-authoritarian democratic government doing well and providing an example visible to those on the lower rungs of the ladder in the land held by the House of Saud.

    Parent

    Drones aren't capabile of accomplising these (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 22, 2014 at 11:52:36 PM EST
    results, w/perhaps, fewer civilian deaths?

    NO (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 09:41:09 AM EST
    Drones are only as accurate (none / 0) (#4)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 05:15:11 AM EST
    as the information used to decide their targets.


    Parent
    It's my opinion that no matter (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by fishcamp on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 09:40:37 AM EST
    what we do nor which group our leaders decide to bomb we are not going to stop the hate groups from forming over and over in the centuries old hideous religious terror wars that are ongoing.  I say get the f outta' there and let them kill each other.  We're not getting any more oil out of the mess, like we were supposed to, from the Iraq invasion and they don't give a sh!t about our democratic humanitarian beliefs.  In fact that's one of the reasons they want to kill all of us.  What a mess.

    Parent
    What gets me is that we're getting ready to (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 10:10:11 AM EST
    drop a sh!tload of money into the giant, gaping, insatiable maw that is the Military Industrial Complex's Middle East Branch- AGAIN - and it won't be long before it's going to be the featured excuse for why we can't afford to treat our own people better.  The calls to cut SS, cut Medicare, cut food and nutrition programs, allow infrastructure to crumble into dust will get louder and louder.  All so we can keep feeding the war beast.

    Ugh, I hate it - all of it.

    Parent

    First of all (3.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 12:26:59 PM EST
    You have no evidence as to what our monetary outlay will be and what partner nations are contributing.

    Second, go ahead and ignore ISIL Anne and see what that costs you in two or three years because they weren't going to just leave you alone.

    Third, stop spending so much time writing grammatically perfect diatribes at Talkleft and go to work supporting tax reform.  Perhaps actually participate in organized fighting for retirement benefits like military spouses did when we organized Keep Your Promise.  We got legislation overturned!

    Parent

    Welp, alrighty then. (3.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 01:25:39 PM EST
    Never said anything more than "here we go again;" based that on a little thing called history.  No reason to trust anything we're being told.

    I feel like we're playing into ISIL's hands; do you have any evidence that we're not, or that that isn't going to be the end result?  The rebels we arm and train today will be the next enemy we have to vanquish.  Getting kinda tired of that cycle.

    Sorry my grammar offends you; in the future, I'll try to tone it down, throw in some "aint's," some misspellings, see if that helps.  All the while trying to remember that you're the only one who's ever allowed to rant because you've got the monopoly on all-things-military.

    Just bite me.

    Parent

    Here we go again (3.67 / 3) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 01:33:01 PM EST
    Is not even accurate in describing what is occurring.

    What I really want to see Anne is your plan for containing ISIL.  In your endeavor to only be a voice that nobody could want to accuse of being wrong, you are behind nothing.  You have no plan other than to constantly wail and screech.

    Parent

    It isn't just us choosing (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 12:15:43 PM EST
    Look, if Islam is going to survive there must be some social evolutions that occur.

    And it isn't people fighting the Jihadists that breeds them.  It isn't people fighting the religious nutjobs in our country that breeds them either, often is it the lack of arguing with them that causes them to become a haven for bullies.

    This is a power thing linked to religous fervor, and if these freaks are allowed to run wild all over the globe, which they will do even if we "leave them alone", that will REALLY bring about global Muslim hate.

    ISIL is no better than the Nazi SS, and the world has said no...to include Islam.  This "problem" isn't going away by itself and has only become a goal and safe haven for the highly functioning mentally ill and given them a means to prey on others.

    Parent

    I'm conflicted (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 04:28:43 PM EST
    on one level I agree with you.  On another I understand and sympathize with every reservation that has been expressed.

    The truth is I am glad it is not my decision.

    I will say this:  this certainly is not what Obama wanted his legacy to be.  I don't think anyone could argue in good faith this is something he would choose blithely.
    That makes me think there are things we don't and likely will never know that might make our assessments of the risks and reactions different.

    Parent

    That's where this sucks for just about (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 04:45:28 PM EST
    Everyone.  I know enough about my husband's past orders under this President that I trust. But there are things about his orders that I will never know as well.  Almost everything has become classified concerning rules of engagement in every zone.

    What I do know, my husband returned from Iraq spiritually broken.  Under Bush's command he watched a military run wild, off the tracks, even somehow forget the Geneva Conventions.

    He stayed on for the Hope of Obama though, and Obama was not my first choice for the job but my husband returned home serving this President and the military this President would have and his spirit was restored.

    The threat is real, it is global, we aren't doing this alone.  But you and I don't know enough about what is being undertaken, how can good people of conscience rest easy at this moment?  They can't, and I'm sorry for that.

    My husband sees the coalitions being built as possibly part of healing our world more.  The scars of Iraq will never go away either but perhaps we can find a way forward and into a deeper secularism, a deeper respect for humanist principles.

    Parent

    Something being repeated (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 06:13:09 PM EST
    on cable news today that does seem an interesting point is that our allies last night were all the monarchies.   It is ironic that after all the talk of and hope for the Arab Spring it may end up being the monarchies that saves the ME from this horror.

    Parent
    There are lessons for the monarchies (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 06:58:05 PM EST
    In having to deal with ISIL.  I have not given up on the Arab Spring.

    I was thinking of something my father predicted over 20 yrs ago.  That the next big fight would be in the ME, and he thought it would have a hidden psychological agenda rooted in preventing ME women from enjoying the basic freedoms that other women enjoy.  My father was the first feminist I ever knew.  And he said the men of the ME had spent so many generations superior to women they psychologically couldn't  deal with losing that superiority, so the world would begin to become their enemy in their own eyes.

    I think a lot of this crazy extremism is psychologically rooted in that.  Even Lawrence Wright who was friends with members of the Bin Laden family said that Osama bin Laden's real hatred of America came from having female American soldiers in Saudi Arabia.  If it wasn't going to be that "female" transgression it would have occurred elsewhere shortly because Western women will not agree to be subhuman, and the world only becomes smaller and more interconnected with each passing day.

    I think the invasion of Iraq sped up the timeline though

    Parent

    On monarchies and lessons (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 07:09:45 PM EST
    Upton Sinclair

    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (in this case kingdom) depends on his not understanding it."

    I'm lookin at you Saudis.

    Parent

    The legal justification (none / 0) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 12:52:25 PM EST
    for the attacks in Syria are based on the 2001 AUMF, the 9/11 2001 planners al Qaeda, Taliban and "Associated Forces."  Since ISIS originated from al Qaeda in Iraq, ISIS is  being considered as associated forces.

    Moreover, a back-up is the AUMF of 2002 regarding  a"continuing threat by Iraq," in which Congressional intent involves Saddam and WMD. The Administration only recently asked Congress to repeal the AUMF of 2002 noting that it was no longer necessary.

    At best, this seems to be a legal stretch. Congress authorized about $500 million to fund the training and arming of Syrian "moderates," but has not provided a new AUMF in Syria or Iraq. And, Congress is adjourned and, apparently, views a new AUMF as being as radioactive to their electoral prospects as many of them once thought  for Saddam's WMD.  While the Administration claims they do not need any additional authority, they would also welcome Congressional action that is to their liking.

    It seems to me, that the Administration's legal posture is, indeed, stretched to the breaking point.  However, having said that, it is my view that any Congressional action should be avoided like the fearful plague that has overtaken so many of them.

    At this point, a Miss Lindsey-type congressional authorization at this point could emerge that would warm the cockles of Cheney's implanted heart.  An AUMF that a future administration could cite for at least another decade--long after not only ISIS is gone, but Syria, as well.

     It may be constitutionally questionable to continue as the Obama administration is, but the attacks have begun. It is exceedingly unlikely that the Republican House will institute impeachment proceedings. And, even less likely that President Obama will do jail time.  But, our country is more likely to be locked-up and the key thrown away by a AUMF 2014.


    Not really sure that your fear (none / 0) (#12)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 01:02:52 PM EST
    of precedent setting is worse then the current precedent being set by this president.

    ISIS was started because their leader wanted his own group even more fanatical then Al Qaeda..

    There is zero legal justification of this president starting a new shooting war based on the AMF from 2001.

    Now, since it's an election year the republicans are scared to call him on it and the democrats are scared to hold him back.   The president doesn't want the embarrassment of the Syrian Red Line vote so nothing is done.

    The precedent being set is if a sitting president starts a war without an AMF then nothing will happen unless the congress reacts with legislation.   IE, nothing will happen.

    Make up any legal justification you want future president.  You can just order troops into combat and if the congress doesn't do anything.  Nothing happens.

    To me, it can't get much worse then that.

    Parent

    From my perspective, (none / 0) (#19)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 04:01:36 PM EST
    The Libyan airstrikes constitute the more questionable precedent.  It was claimed that the War Powers Act of 1973 did not apply since the air campaign fell short of hostilities. UN Security Council Resolution 1973 provided international legality but the justification elided the criticism that NATO did not stick to protection of civilians.  Indeed, Sarkozy's rightward thinking advertised that creeping mission as a precedent for Arab counties to note.

     While we have not had a formal declaration of war since WW!! (and, it is not clear that such is required, as contrasted with congress declaring or consenting in some manner. The War Powers Act of 1973, itself  has been questioned as to its constitutionality.)

    President Truman did not seek a formal declaration of war in Korea, but did seek congressional support and funding.  Bill Clinton justified the Kosovo bombing with the consent of Congress in the form of funding for the Kosovo campaign.  It was short and successful so that worked.

    President Obama, reversed his plans for striking Syria in 2013 and asked Congress for approval ( the serendipitous  diplomatic solution that subsequently occurred, was in my view, one of President Obama's major foreign policy achievements).

    The present air campaign justification is weak tea, but, in a way, it shows the continuity and continuation of the mess authorized in 2002.

    My thinking is that, at this time, we are better off (does not mean we are well off) without a new AUMF and muddle along on the creaky AUMf that we have.

    Better the one we know than the one we don't., especially one that is likely to be written with the hysterical hand of Miss lindsey et. al.

     And, it may made it more difficult for a future president to wage war in say, UAE in 2027, on the basis of the 2002 AUMF owing to a new off-shoot of a second cousin of ISIS.  

    Parent

    Another View (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 01:38:37 PM EST
    Eric Posner:

    Ackerman is right that the Obama administration's reliance on the 2001 AUMF is phony, but he's wrong to say that Obama has broken with American constitutional traditions. That tradition dictates that the president must give a nod to Congress if he can, but otherwise he is legally free to go to war, subject to vague limits that have never been worked out. That's not to say that Congress is helpless. It can refuse to fund a war if it objects to it. But the real constraint on the president's war-making powers is not law, but politics.


    Parent
    I think his legal standing is (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 01:56:11 PM EST
    Pretty sketchy :). It definitely needs a renewal, but nobody will even give him a vote on it.  So should he just sit there and do nothing?

     And then, not only will ISIL terrorism run rampant but he will be accused of allowing an ISIL attack somewhere in the world. And that will be used against the Democratic Party by McGraham with Koch frosting sprinkled with sobbing screeching skeered Americans?  What if the attack was so successful it completely destroyed Clinton's chances?

    There are a few folks on here who will be equally as upset with Clinton's counter terrorism choices.  I have a pretty good idea who they are, and I have respect for their voice.  There are some folks around here though who when Clinton is President won't give two figs about her making such choices, they just hate Obama right now.

    Those folks piss me off :)

    Parent

    There are people who will vote for (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:31:33 AM EST
    whichever candidate has the (D) behind his or her name, and regardless of whether that voter has been in favor of or opposed to the policies and agenda of the eventual Democratic president, he or she will be loyal to a fault.

    We've seen it here.  How many people who supported Clinton in the primaries over Obama just flipped a switch when Obama got the nomination, and chose to either forget about all the policy differences, or flat-out just did a 180 on them?  Hell, there were people livid and hysterical over the Bush/Cheney policies who, once Obama was president and engaging in those policies himself, found ways to defend them!  I don't understand how that works.

    If Clinton gets the nomination, and is elected, I fully expect her to be an order of magnitude more hawkish and authoritarian than Obama - and that is probably the biggest reason why, if she's nominated, she won't be elected with my support.  And I'm someone who did support her in the 2008 primaries.

    You have your reasons for supporting Obama's positions and decisions, and it isn't up to me to deem them valid or not; I wonder though, if you would be as offended to have them deemed the result of Obama-love as those of us who take issue with his policies are to have them deemed the result of Obama-hate.

    Just my opinion, but I think there are very few lazy thinkers here, and chalking critical comments up to Obama-hate is as lazy an argument as chalking the positive ones up to Obama-love.

    Parent

    The policy differences between Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:53:38 AM EST
    And Obama were minute. And after the primaries, moving on is what functional people do Anne.  It's a primary. If you claim your Obama hatred is a product of the policy difference between Obama and Clinton, that's pathetic.

    And Clinton is just a tad more hawkish as well as having a better understanding of the military mindset.  She tends to develop close relationships with the military leaders she works with.

    I anticipate she will be our next President and by God I had better see you on here dissing her just as hard for her hawkish choices.

    Parent

    Anne (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:54:33 AM EST
    seems to really care about issues. Just IMO.

    The only thing that bugs me about the whole Clinton/Obama exercise is that there are people that make excuses for Obama doing something that would never give Hillary the same break.

    Parent

    Absolutely (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:01:23 AM EST
    There are plenty of commenters at Orange that have a bizarre Hillary hatred even though there is little difference between the two on most issues.

    Perhaps Anne is someone who cares about the issues beyond who came out on top in the 2008 primary.  Hopefully time will tell because I desire a President Clinton.

    Parent

    Hillary and Obama are as pedestrain (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jondee on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 11:44:55 AM EST
    as they come. Corporate suits with some residual liberal sentiments that any sentient biped on the planet can't help having from time to time.

    I've yet to see any evidence that either O or C have the will, guts, or, capability to think and convey anything resembling a brave, creative, or inspiring idea or plan that isn't some cleverly reworded version of realpolitik business-as-usual.

    The Born Again, scorched earth libertarian knuckle walker's have really lowered hopes and expectations in this country: people just can't wait for an Obama or a Clinton to get elected -- even if they have trouble articulating in detail exactly why.  

    Parent

    It works both ways (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:35:30 AM EST
    True (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 10:40:29 AM EST
    I realize I am not one of those people (3.67 / 3) (#42)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 11:25:33 AM EST
    for whom you have even a smidgen of respect, but it would be appreciated if you would refrain from casting everything I say as a product of Obama-hate.

    I do not hate him any more than you love him.  You agree with him more often than you do not; I feel like I could agree with him on more issues if he would just take about two giant steps to the left, and stop catering to and accommodating Republicans who are never going to meet him halfway on anything, unless "halfway" is defined as "the point where we get what we want."

    It was my opinion - and perhaps I was wrong even then - but in 2008, I did not feel like there wasn't more than a dime's worth of difference between Clinton and Obama.  I saw major differences on the domestic side, and always felt Hillary would be better in that arena.  I had my concerns about her on foreign policy issues - I still have those concerns, and in fact, they have deepened.  

    I have no idea why you have ordained that I'd better show up to dis Hillary for her hawkish choices as President Clinton, considering that I've already had plenty of criticism for her.  I'm not one of those people who forgets about issues in order to show loyalty to party - now, there are some people I can't respect.

    I'm sorry you feel the need to trivialize my opinions; I may not agree with you on some things, but I don't take the kinds of shots at you that you take at me.  I probably consider your perspective on the military side of things more than I do the perspective of others who don't have the same background you do, but so what?  Who cares?  Not you.  

    The efforts of your mouse friend to pile on are really kind of sad, but I guess some people will do anything to feel like they have a friend.  And - bonus! - it always helps to have a few people around who can deal with the uncertainty of the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing.

    I'm just over it, all of it.

    Parent

    I'm just over it, all of it. (2.67 / 3) (#44)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 11:57:44 AM EST
    Glad to hear that..  I am not holding my breath though.

    Never been called a mouse before, I like it!

    squeek

    Parent

    The mouse that (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:23:28 PM EST
    Roared

    Parent
    Loved That Film! (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:41:03 PM EST
    You've been called worse things. (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:52:29 PM EST
    Will the coaltion bomb Algeria now, following the beheading of the French civilian?

    Parent
    I heard they have sworn allegiance (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 02:14:43 PM EST
    To ISIS.  If they weren't being closely monitored before, they are now.

    Parent
    But I asked about bombing. (none / 0) (#68)
    by oculus on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 02:20:09 PM EST
    You act like making those decisions are (none / 0) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 02:37:40 PM EST
    Just a head nod, when you know they aren't

    What can Algerian authorities do to address this?

    How long did joint operations have a group in the Iraq/Syrian area gathering intelligence on ISIS and other terrorist affiliates?  They did announce that oculus.  That is where all this starts for the Obama administration. Addressing the local authorities and if there is none then intel gathering and assessments.

    Parent

    Yes (2.25 / 4) (#35)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:18:50 AM EST
    Amazing to read someone who appears to be intelligent say such drivel. Of course the vast policy differences could never be described.

    Guess having good grammar is about all some people have.  

    Parent

    How else... (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by unitron on Thu Sep 25, 2014 at 04:29:36 AM EST
    "There are people who will vote for...whichever candidate has the (D) behind his or her name..."

    ...other than doing that, does one keep Republicans out of office?

    Parent

    Labeling somebody (none / 0) (#32)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 08:40:51 AM EST
    An Obama-hater or apologist based on their opinion on a given point is a reductive POV that saves many people from examining their own POV in any great detail.

    Whatever intellectual sins you could be charged with, being the opposite of an Obamabot isn't one of them.

    Parent

    Interesting observations, Anne. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Green26 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 11:02:28 AM EST
    I pretty much agree with what you said. I like how you articulated your observations. While I am aware of whether someone is a D or an R, I focus more on the candidates, both of in terms of their views and positions, and my perception of their level of experience and competence. I also focus on issues that are more important to me.

    While I liked HIllary's positions more than Obama's, where there were differences, Hillary was far more experienced and had shown she was more than competent. I worried from day 1 about Obama's lack of experience, and wondered if he was competent.

    I'm hoping that since this thread is about to go off the radar, that we're okay straying from the topic.

    Parent

    I can't decide if Tom Kaine (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 06:16:03 PM EST
    really gives a sh!t or if he is considering running for president.

    Parent
    Jim Webb is also on record (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 02:23:41 PM EST
    as considering a presidential run. As a Senator he was a real deficit hawk pushing the president to form the cat food commission after the attempt failed to achieve cloture in the Senate.

    His domestic policies  would be a disaster for this country.

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    Ugh! (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 08:12:03 PM EST
    Wants to run!

    Obama is just doing it
    Hillary would have just done it sooner
    Kaine...look at this kingly and queenly lawbreaking not a white guy bunch!  Hire me, I am the non polarizing white guy and I don't like ISIL either.

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    VP try-outs, perhaps?? (none / 0) (#52)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:55:00 PM EST
    If iOS8 sounds like a terrorIst group, (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 23, 2014 at 07:43:36 PM EST
    it does, Khorasan sounds like vinyl flooring -

    What is Khorasan Group, and why are we at war with it?


    I forget where.... (none / 0) (#28)
    by unitron on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 01:04:41 AM EST
    ...I just recently saw it (might even have been a post of yours elsewhere), but someone said it sounded like the name of an Enron-style energy conglomerate.

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    Where's Ricardo Mantalban? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Mr Natural on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 05:28:51 AM EST
    rich, Korosanian leather...

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    I hear it with a Spanish accent too (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:50:08 PM EST
    as in corason.

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    Ha! I hear it with a Japanese accent. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by vml68 on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:53:27 PM EST
    Khora-san.

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    For some (none / 0) (#93)
    by Zorba on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 06:37:19 PM EST
    D@mned reason or other, I am thinking "Khorasan: must be a Kardashian cousin.  Khorasan Kardashian."
    Okay, okay, I know.  Totally trivializing the whole thing.
    But, OTOH, have we heard from Kourtney lately?  Where is she, anyway, hmmm?    ;-)

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    Coordination (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 09:38:17 AM EST
    A seeming contradiction depends on what the word "coordination" means.
    (Reuters) - A Syrian government minister said U.S.-led air strikes against militants are going in the "right direction" because the government had been informed before they started and they were not hitting civilians or Syrian military targets....

    ...The United States said on Tuesday that Washington's envoy to the United Nations had told her Syrian counterpart air strikes would take place, but it has ruled out coordinating with Assad, whom Washington sees as part of the problem.

    Reuters

    Coordination...or communication? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by christinep on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:59:55 PM EST
    Or the role of "nuance" in international relations?

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    I still think Assad (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 24, 2014 at 12:26:23 PM EST
    and Russia will not like how this ends.  


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