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ISIS Mass Massacre in Tikrit: "Down By the River"

By Jeralyn, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:42:00 AM EST
Tags: ISIS (all tags)
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I can't bring myself to watch (and won't link to) the ISIS video of the massacre of hundreds of Shi'ite Muslims and army deserters in Tikrit. Almost all are in their 20's and 30's. The video is 36 minutes long, and the real horror is in the last 6 or 7 minutes. Shorter version: There are trucks loaded with hundreds of terrified young men. First they make them lie down in the sand. Then they shoot around 50 of them in the head, one by one. Then there's a scene of an open area packed with more than 100 bodies. And then:

The 36-minute video ends with a scene in which fifteen young men are being escorted to a blood-soaked path along a river, where masked gunmen await, one of whom is holding the Islamic State's flag. The victims are each shot in the head and dumped into the river one by one.

Video above: Neil Young and CS&N, Big Sur Sept 6, 1969:

"Down by the river, I shot my baby
... This much madness is too much sorrow...."

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    ISIS Mass Massacre in Tikrit: "Down By the River" | 110 comments (110 topical)

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    This is (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 06:45:15 AM EST
    the humiliating and hateful legacy of GW Bush.

    Liberals for American Exceptionalism? (5.00 / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:18:46 AM EST
    We control the world. Had we put in a stronger and kinder dictator in Iraq everything would be peachy.

    Wake up call:

    US does not control the world
    US actions are not the greatest and most supreme actions that affect the course of world history.

    Your belief that Bush wars are responsible for ISIS is the same as PPJ blaming Obama for the situation in Iraq now.

    Some things happen in the Mid East and world in general that have nothing to do with US imperialism despite the pervasive belief among Americans that US is the center of the world.

    Parent

    The conditions might not be so ripe (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:24:32 AM EST
    for the ISIS to take over in Iraq if we hadn't invaded it in the first place.

    Parent
    Really (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:36:05 AM EST
    Your use of the subjunctive seems iffy, no?

    Do you think that Saddam was the right man for the job to keep the Shiities in line? Or do you think that Saudi Arabia should have replaced Saadam?

    And, had things been the same, which of course is never possible,
    how do you imagine that Iraq would be now, with aging Saadam at the helm?

    Imagining that things would now be the same (or better?) in Iraq had we not invaded is wishful thinking at best.

    There are forces at play in the Mid east and Iraq, that have NOTHING to do with the US, which is hard for some Americans to fathom.

    Parent

    Did Bush cause the current situation in Syria too? (none / 0) (#93)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:26:01 PM EST
    As you know, ISIS gathered, gained strength and grew out of Syria.

    Parent
    If Bush hadn't invaded (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:22:27 AM EST
    None of this would've happened. That's the bottom line.

    If Carter had supported the Shah (1.00 / 2) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:52:06 AM EST
    then none of this would have happened......

    Or as Dandy Don said, "If if's and but's were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

    You cannot excuse the mistakes of acts done now because of things done in the past.

    We are not responsible of our father's sins.

    And we can't use them as an excuse for our wrongs.


    Parent

    OMG (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:56:41 AM EST
    You're still on this?.........sigh

    Parent
    Highly (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:03:21 AM EST
    ironic for someone who wants to hold George W. Bush accountable for NOTHING.

    Parent
    How many (or what percentage) of... (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by unitron on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:21:03 AM EST
    ...the Shah's "own people" would we need to have helped him kill to achieve an ongoing Persian Paradise?

    How many "collaterally damaged" innocent bystanders do you suppose would have said "Sometimes these things just happen, so I'm not going to take it personally"?

    Parent

    And, if the CIA had not (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:22:31 PM EST
    toppled the Iranian government and installed the Shah in 1953.

    Take a stand, Jim.   Do you support the 1954 CIA coup in Guatemala and Reagan's 1980s policy there?  

    Parent

    The Shah was a murderous thug (none / 0) (#6)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:58:21 AM EST
    that we supported, while ignoring intelligence and obvious signs that he was unpopular with his 'subjects' until it was too late for him.  Your revisionist history cannot change those facts, or your fulminations dispel them.

    Nice try.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:21:56 AM EST
    Maybe, since we are imagining outcomes by changing the past, better to imagine that Jesus was not born, or that the dinosaurs did not die.

    Certainly Bush's war was horrible, unnecessary and continues to cause suffering in Iraq, but to predict that there would be peace in Iraq or the mid east had Bush not invaded Iraq is a stretch.

    Parent

    The point is... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by unitron on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:36:33 AM EST
    ...Bush's invasion didn't improve things any (except for Halliburton shareholders and whoever got those pallets of cash, I suppose), and it created a power vacuum and chaos surplus that helped already bad situations become worse.

    Parent
    Hard to Tell What Would Have Happened (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:41:17 AM EST
    Had Bush not been elected, or had he not invaded Iraq.

    It is absurd to blame ISIS actions on Bush, IMO.

    And I detest BushCo and the war crimes they perpetrated.

    Parent

    If ISIL/ISIS didn't exist... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by unitron on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:29:00 AM EST
    ...would Tom Clancy have had to have invented them?
    Ah. Religion. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:05:47 PM EST
    Such a wonderful man made concept. The earth would be a much saner and safer place to live if we could just eradicate the "invisible man in the sky" and other mythologies invented over the course of human history.

    Perhaps (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:18:01 PM EST
    But there is also tremendous beauty, creativity and fabulous imagination that is also born of religion and mythology.

    I do not think that I would want that to disappear, or have not been a source of inspiration for me as a non-believer.

    Quite a rich history, and yes a destructive one as well.

    Parent

    The difference between religion... (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:37:38 PM EST
    ...as we know the meaning of the word, and mythology, is the difference between membership and free association. One requires fealty to a system of pre-ordained and often irrational belief, the other requires a heartbeat and strictly rational curiosity.

    A normal human being had all these thoughts before any later human beings decided to codify them a some sort of fixed "moral" law. Therefore, the chicken IN the egg came well before the coop.

    IMO anyway.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:48:48 PM EST
    Spirituality and organized religions of the world has given us a great many gifts as well as horrors.

    I for one, am too greedy to imagine a world without those treasures.

    People are capable of misusing secular government just as people are capable of misusing religion to gain power and destroy others.

    I think that the problem is people and what they do with the means at hand, not so much religion per se.

    Parent

    Sorry. (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 01:22:10 PM EST
    But people invented religions. To me, they are one and the same. Religion is people. And religious people are responsible for more hate, death and destruction in the course of human history than any other force. This thing in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shi'ite is religious blood feud over basically, nothing. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland in years past, killing over nothing.


    Parent
    Really?? (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:20:25 PM EST
    Have you ever heard of the French Revolution??

    Hitler? Stalin? Mao?  Pol Pot?

    Parent

    And the current situation (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:24:05 PM EST
    in Gaza....

    Parent
    Israel turned Gaza over (1.00 / 2) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:19:23 AM EST
    to the Palestinian Arabs. They have taken Hamas as their government. Hamas has attacked Israel.

    Israel is defending itself.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 02:06:29 PM EST
    People invented governments too..  

    Parent
    One could argue (none / 0) (#38)
    by vicndabx on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:18:43 PM EST
    religion is the basis for any moral restraint people have.  Indeed, the concept of what is right and what is not in our laws have their basis in concepts first codified by religion.

    If one wanted to, one could see parallels between ISIS and its effort to control and our own American revolution against England, i.e. a struggle for supremacy between different ideals.

    Parent

    Actually, I do not agree (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:29:10 PM EST
    that moral restraint is based on religion.

    It is based on compassion.  Which is an inherent human trait...sometimes overcome by other human traits.

    Parent

    I love religious iconography (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:05:38 PM EST
    I collect it.   From many different religion.  I understand the impulse.  
    Me, I would be willing to see how that creativity expressed it's self without the horror wrought on history by religious fanaticism.  I believe it would have found expression.  We were painting on walls long before there was churches.

    Parent
    That said (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:55:30 PM EST
    But people invented religions. To me, they are one and the same.

    I agree with this.  It is part of us.  As much as I might not like that.  It's not lost on me that the impulse to do those cave paintings on the wall I mentioned is the same one that led to the inquisition.

    Parent

    Religion is about (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:25:24 PM EST
    us, not some objective, cosmic truth.

    So, there is much beauty in religion.  And, there can be other things too.

    Parent

    I do, too (none / 0) (#72)
    by sj on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:50:43 PM EST
    I love religious iconography  (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 06:05:38 PM MDT

    I collect it.   From many different religion.

    And me, too:
    Me, I would be willing to see how that creativity expressed it's self without the horror wrought on history by religious fanaticism.  I believe it would have found expression.  


    Parent
    "strictly rational curiosity" (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 01:46:36 PM EST
    egad. meant to whack that. and replace with "a curious mind."

    i am editor, and i does suck.

    Parent

    I dunno (none / 0) (#77)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:30:16 PM EST
    I think your original statement was quite good....it was an interesting and illuminating turn of phrase.

    Parent
    I can't watch it either (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by sj on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 01:27:29 PM EST
    Just reading your description make my heart hurt and my eyes well up.

    Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 04:54:57 PM EST
    ^^^^perfect example of goal post moving. Since we have Christian terrorists now "I don't know of Baptists" killing Methodists. Well, yeah, as a whole Baptists aren't killing Methodists in some sort of Baptist vs. Methodist holy war but Christian terrorists do kill other Christians but they look at it like like conservatives do: they're just collateral damage and the cost of "doing business".

    No. There are no (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:22:23 AM EST
    Christian terrorist organizations with military weapons invading other countries.

    And there are none with nation state support.

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:42:32 AM EST
    for moving the goal posts once again.

    Parent
    Christian is as Christian does (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:57:32 AM EST
    according to your logic, the authors of the Holocaust were Christians. Maybe you should reflect on that before you continue to reduce spirituality to a tawdry, world-wide public relations contest.

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:02:07 AM EST
    Hungary is coming awfully close, as is the Russian Orthodox church in Crimea and Ukraine. Ukrainian Christians, Jews, Muslims and Koreans are being oppressed by State sanctioned Russian Orthodox Christians.

    Jobbik, the Movement for a Better Hungary (Hungarian: Jobbik Magyarországért Mozgalom), commonly known as Jobbik (pronounced [ˈjobːik]), is a Hungarian radical nationalist[3][4] political party. The party describes itself as "a principled, conservative and radically patriotic Christian party", whose "fundamental purpose" was the protection of "Hungarian values and interests."[12] Jobbik has been described as fascist,[13] neo-fascist,[14] Neo-Nazi,[15] extremist,[16] racist,[17] anti-Semitic,[18][19] anti-Roma[20] and homophobic.[21] After the Hungarian parliamentary elections on 6 April 2014, the party polled 1,020,476 votes securing 20.54% making them Hungary's third largest party in the National Assembly.


    Parent
    the topic here is ISIS (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:27:05 PM EST
    thread cleaned of insults and name calling between commenters and off topic comments

    Blaming Bush?? (1.00 / 1) (#2)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:08:43 AM EST
    How disgusting.

    I'm sure he also caused your ingrown toenail.

    I quote again.

    "That's not true," Obama interjected. "Oh, you didn't want a status of forces agreement?" Romney asked as an argument ensued. "No," Obama said. "What I would not have done is left 10,000 troops in Iraq that would tie us down. That certainly would not help us in the Middle East."

    Link

    You elected Obama to fix things.

    He has made them much worse.

    So having US troops (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:09:59 PM EST
    in the middle of the slaughter is a viable alternative to you? You are the prime example of the adage that "young men die in old men's wars." You are no different than that evil crank Cheney. You have no qualms sacrificing someone's life for your own selfish reasons.

    Parent
    Young men have always fought in old (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:03:26 PM EST
    men's wars.

    When it was my turn I volunteered and served 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    So I did my share.

    It looks like you are a prime example of:

    Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accept the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

    ― Robert Heinlein



    Parent
    Still waiting to learn in which war you so bravely (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Angel on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:33:38 PM EST
    fought.

    Parent
    Crickets (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:20:12 PM EST
    Oh, yes ... the Cold "War".

    There were training accidents - just like any period in military (or civilian) life, don'tcha know.

    Parent

    When I saw the aftermath... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by unitron on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:37:47 PM EST
    ...of the helicopter which had passed right over our house and then come apart in mid-air maybe 5 or 10 seconds later and fallen into a grocery store a few blocks away, as I looked at the boot with a little bit of leg still left in it and a helmet I was fortunate enough to have only seen from behind, I was thinking to myself "I bet those guys were really glad they got cuisinarted by the rotor blades here during training instead of over there in Vietnam".

    I bet the next crew to fly weren't a bit afraid because after all it was only training here stateside and not actual combat.

    Parent

    Ridiculous (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:17:04 PM EST
    The risk of serving in combat is not remotely comparable to the risk of serving in peacetime.  People die in all types of peacetime accidents whether they are in the military or not.

    Some people are happy to do the latter and then claim that they served in a "war".

    Parent

    Whatever war it was (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:49:19 PM EST
    it was more than you did.

    ;-)

    Parent

    Give us the facts, Jim. Don't be a coward. (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Angel on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:55:28 PM EST


    Parent
    We know which "war" it was (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:17:42 PM EST
    An imaginary one ...

    Parent
    Slogans (none / 0) (#78)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:31:24 PM EST
    Nonsense.

    We are better.  We are out of Iraq.  That is better.

    Parent

    Crocker: ISIS "want to come after us". (none / 0) (#8)
    by RickyJim on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:03:58 AM EST
    From an interview with former US ambassador to Iraq, Ryan Crocker.

    They are far stronger; they are far more numerous. They have thousands who hold foreign passports and require no visas to get into the United States or other Western countries.

    They are well funded, they are battle-hardened, and they are well armed. And they now control far more territory exclusively than bin Laden ever did. They have the security; they have the safety to plan their next set of operations; and they are a messianic movement.

    Believe me, they are planning those operations. That's why the Saudis moved 30,000 troops up to their border. They know that ISIS wants Mecca and Medina.

    They also want to come after us. And I can tell you, as we sit here today in Washington, they're sitting in Mosul figuring out how they're going to get at us next.
    Bahahahahaha! (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:17:26 AM EST
    Dean of the Bush School of Government and Public Service.  Two areas that the Bush family has severe deficits of both knowledge and service in :)

    Parent
    It's like being the Speer Professor (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 02:24:47 PM EST
    of Architecture.

    Parent
    fear mongering will get you (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:48:20 PM EST
    nowhere here. You can read ISIS publications and news releases for  yourself. Or any number of knowledgeable analysts who have studied the Middle East and ISIS and related groups for years, in Syria and Iraq.

    Parent
    I am not Fear Mongering (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by RickyJim on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 01:49:56 PM EST
    I think our security is in more danger if we go after ISIS militarily now.  I think the Frontline program made clear that the main reason they get support is because so many Sunnis have been hurt by the Maliki and Assad governments.  I posted Crocker's statements because I think it is important to point out that there are influential people who are fear mongering.

    Parent
    Well, Crocker (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:33:00 PM EST
    is the last guy to quote....No credibility.

    Might as well post someting by Cheney.

    And if you disagreed with him, it was hard to tell.

    Parent

    There are dozens of experts saying (none / 0) (#92)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    what Crocker is saying. Some big name people with significant experience in the Middle East. Some people saying it's a bigger threat than 911.

    Parent
    This is fear mongering though (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:28:48 PM EST
    You act as though existing authorities are ignoring ISIS, and as I have said before and will say again...our President has placed a Joint Special Operations Unit in Bahgdad and the CIA is monitoring also using the embassy.  

    Parent
    It isn't fear mongering if (none / 0) (#96)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 03:16:03 PM EST
    it's correct, and my view is that these experts are likely correct. I don't believe I have said anything for several weeks about what the administration is or is not doing regarding ISIS. I have merely been trying to provide some information and my views on the ISIS threat. My views and assessment disagree with some of you. I truly don't understand why some of you want to minimize the magnitude of the the threat and are ignoring a growing number of experts in the West who have stated that they believe ISIS is likely to become a significant threat to the US and Europe, both via expansion and destabilization in the Middle East and support of direct terrorism directed at the West.

    If you want to move the discussion back to whether Obama is and has been doing enough, we can do that.

    Parent

    A Statement Like... (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 03:34:30 PM EST
    ..."Bigger Than 9/11" is fear mongering, even if it's true.  The entire point of using 9/11 is to induce fear.  It's not related in anyway; bigger than 9/11 would assume some sort of an attack, not a war or skirmish, that would be bigger than WWII or some such comparison.

    If you are going to use 'experts' you should have the courtesy to list them and links to what they said so we can judge, and not just take your word for it that "There are dozens of experts..." saying this or that.

    Are we talking about the experts that swore up and down Saddam had WMD's or experts who still believe he has something to do with 9/11, or just good ole chicken hawks who love scaring people.


    Parent

    Like I said, if it's true, it's not (none / 0) (#102)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 04:06:53 PM EST
    fear mongering. Why don't you list and link all the experts who are saying ISIS isn't and won't be a threat to the US and Europe?

    Parent
    ISIS is not a clear and present (5.00 / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:58:22 PM EST
    danger to the U.S.

    They can threaten all they like.

    They are most a regional threat.  In terms of individual terrorists, those exist all over the world, and ISIS is just another group of such.

    Parent

    Is there a problem of semantics? (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:17:08 PM EST
    I don't think it's being said ISIS is not a threat and never will or could be?   IMO if that is being said it's not correct.  
    I think the point is that most people including me don't believe they are an imminent threat.  They are hilariously out gunned.  I doubt a member of ISIS could break wind without the CIA knowing about it.  
    If the mess WITH US we can squash them like a bug.  
    Anyway, that is, I think, the point.  Relax.  We are fine.

    Be glad you don't live in Gaza.

    Parent

    What experts? (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 04:58:38 PM EST
    And we did not have an existing Joint Special Operations prepared and capable of working seamlessly with the CIA as well as NATO prior to 9/11.

    President Obama was our CIC when we built that capability with NATO, he was also CIC when Joint Special Operations really hit their stride....in its recent incarnation the brainchild of Generals Stanley McChrystal and David Petraeus.

    The President gets so much crap from his base too for his responsibility in enabling Joint Special Operations on one hand....and because it is excessively classified gets dealt crap from nutters as well proclaiming he is doing nothing....except unleashing the most invasive clandestine military force to info gather on ISIS.

    Also, you realize that Obama okay'd Baghdadi for droning, and then a bunch of ISIS militants got hit....by something :).  And he was wounded and rushed to Syria and the last rumor we heard he was in a coma?  But hey, Obama is doing nothing :)

    And ISIS fighters generate loads and loads and loads of metadata that is being collected....but hey....Obama is doing nothing to keep anything or anyone safe :). They are going to hit us tomorrow, numerous experts say so.....sigh

    Parent

    No one has said or suggested (none / 0) (#105)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 05:42:17 PM EST
    that Obama isn't doing anything. The question is whether he has done enough, or should be doing more. He missed a big opportunity in Iraq by not bombing ISIS immediately after they grabbed the humvees, tanks and other military equipment in northern Iraq and as they transported them over the border, in my view.

    Parent
    Obama missed nothing (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 05:53:02 PM EST
    There is no military solution for what ails Iraq.  There is only a political solution that could heal the country.  Maliki and his supporters must either be removed from power or they must evolve.

    The marginalized Sunnis of Iraq are angry militant flypaper, until they are given a seat at the table Northwest Iraq will host fighter after fighter after fighter.

    If Obama attacked the current fighters, no solution would follow...only more fighters would follow, fighters who would now also recruit individuals to now also attack the United States.

    I want to reiterate, THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION FOR WHAT CURRENTLY AILS IRAQ!

    Parent

    Who was talking about Iraq? (none / 0) (#109)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:54:42 PM EST
    I was talking about ISIS and reducing the amount of weaponry and military supplies they grabbed in Iraq and transported to Syria.

    Parent
    What makes you think Obama (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:56:47 PM EST
    Should be involved in that?

    Parent
    What makes you think Obama (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:59:28 PM EST
    Should be involved in that?

    Parent
    Experts fear mongered (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:04:40 PM EST
    about Saddam Hussein too.

    Gulf of Tonkin is perhaps destined to be repeared forever...

    Parent

    Here's the start of my list (none / 0) (#121)
    by Green26 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:54:20 PM EST
    Haven't tried to assemble all of the names from Europe but a few popped up when looking for the US experts.

    Richard Barrett, former head of counter-terrorism at Britain's MI6 and now senior vice president of the New York-based Soufan Group

    British Prime Minister David Cameron: "the most serious threat [returning foreign fighters] to Britain's security that there is today"

    Cressida Dick, head of specialist operations for London's Metropolitan Police until recently

    Ryan Crocker, Dean of Bush School of Government and Public Service Texas A&M and US Ambassador to Iraq from 2007 to 2009 under Bush and Obama

    James Stavridis, Dean of Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts and former NATO commander from 2009 to 2013

    James Jeffrey, former ambassador to Iraq and currently senior fellow at Washington Institute for Near East Policy  

    Attorney Eric General Holder: "In some ways it's more frightening than anything I've seen as Attorney General," "9/11 was something that kind of came out of the blue. This is a situation we can see developing and the negative potential that I see coming out of the facts in Syria and Iraq now are quite concerning." NBC and ABC interviews on 7/14/14.

    Ret. General Peter Chiarelli  

    Army Col. Kenneth King  Michael Morelli, former acting CIA director and CBS analyst on intelligence, national security and counterterrorism

    Robert Ford, the former American ambassador to Syria until February: "ISIS represents an immediate threat to the United States." Q&A with Issac Chotiner in New Republic on 7/9/14.

    Michael Leiter, NBC News' counter-terrorism and national security analyst  

    Juan Zarate CBS National Security Analyst

    Brian Zimmer, NBC News counter-terrorism and national security analyst


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    Also Retired General Jack Keane (none / 0) (#122)
    by RickyJim on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 10:01:08 PM EST
    This much I do know is that ISIS should be our focus, because this is a menace to the region of the Middle East. Jordan is their next objective, and they certainly would go down that peninsula long term.

    It is a threat to Europe and the United States eventually directly because of terrorism, and we need to focus on it. The fact of the matter is the vehicle to address that is through Iraq and through Syria, and we should be doing something about it through both of those countries.

    Keane is currently the head of the "Institute for the Study of War" and is given credit for developing the "Surge" strategy for the Bush administration.  Some of his suggestions for combating ISIS

    We should be engaging them with air power. We should be robustly assisting the Free Syrian Army with equipment and also with training. And I mean, put it on fast forward -- we have a tendency to do this in half measures -- and move that thing forward.

    The fact of the matter is it's one of convenience, and that means that we can reach out to these Sunni tribal leaders. Many of our Americans who have relationships with them, those relationships are still there, and we could use that to get back the dialogue with them.

    I'm convinced what is absolutely needed right now is Ryan Crocker in Baghdad with a team of people that he would hand-pick based on previous relationships to assist him.

    The United States could facilitate a coalition arrangement. We have the skill sets to do it, but most importantly, we have the relationships to do it. I don't believe the current diplomatic team has those relationships and can come to the ball. You need this team that operated in the past to do it.


    I am amazed that Frontline hosted such a "neocon reunion".  

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    Yes....and nobody is paying attention (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 09:08:13 AM EST
    Nobody is gathering information on the fighters.  President Obama and NATO are just ignoring this.

    AND AS IF, this is the only conflict capable of creating such returning fighters.  Our President and NATO have already worked together to intercept such danger in the past.  So all these blowhards....I have no idea what they are actually blowing about other than this is a conflict currently in the public eye because of ISIS fighter's twitter accounts and they have a moment to collect a "consultant" paycheck or feel relevant.

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    They just lay down (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:05:19 AM EST
    6 or 8 guns and 20+ victims.  They are going to kill you, fight them!  Wrestle for one gun, in the chaos and distraction jump the others.  They are like lambs led to slaughter.  These young men were not raised to fight, and that's okay....I hate my men mean.  When the chips are down though like this, fight these ba$tards...there is nothing left to lose at this point.  Never lay down and just let someone put a bullet in the head of the person next to you, and then you, and then the other person next to you.  So sad

    I watched the video (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 09:25:42 AM EST
    I have a pretty high tolerance and honestly I was curious about what they wanted me to see.  
    I have wondered the same thing before when I have seen this type of thing.  Why just lay down.  Run at least.   OTOH maybe they have seen what happens to people who run and prefer a quick death.  Who knows.   Love to hear a psychologist opinion of that behavior.  

    One thing I couldn't help thinking about watching it is how much worse is it than a typical day in the US where according to the numbers I just googled 289 people are shot and 86 of them die.  

    Maybe if we were forced to watch videos of that happening it would stop

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    Was just talking about this with spouse (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 06:44:13 PM EST
    Of course, if anyone during these activities did fight back.  Not such a great video.  Because this is all about propaganda we will only see videos demonstrating ISIS total power over the situation.

    Some of the most depressing videos I have seen though.  If anyone ever lines Talkleft up, for the record I'm fighting.  I'm dead anyway without fighting so I'm fighting.  The worst death to me in this circumstance is a quick easy one, it only makes things worse for my children and grandchildren if I allow anyone to treat me like chattel.

    So just know, I'm jumping one of them even if all I accomplish is clawing his eyes out while the others shoot both of us.  One thing I have learned from soldiers, bullets skip along the ground so crouch taking cover during gunfire, then you are more likely to avoid a fatal wound...your feet, legs, and butt in the most danger.  If it is blast of any kind to include a grenade, lay flat :)

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    Never know what I'm gonna learn (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 06:57:20 PM EST
    When I come here -

    One thing I have learned from soldiers, bullets skip along the ground so crouch taking cover during gunfire, then you are more likely to avoid a fatal wound...your feet, legs, and butt in the most danger.  If it is blast of any kind to include a grenade, lay flat :)


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    Reminds me of the advice (none / 0) (#59)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:13:14 PM EST
    William Manchester gives a newbie at the beginning of his memoir about his experiences in the Pacific theater during WWII.

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    Fear could have really been (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 10:37:58 PM EST
    paralyzing.  Maybe, they thought, if they just complied, they would live.....

    You are clearly right.   But people are often quite compliant in the face of authority....

    Raised to fight.....To not comply.....Yes, that does seem right.

    But with the cops in the U.S., what do you teach your son?

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    This is supposedly a captured army though (none / 0) (#85)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:46:39 AM EST
    And they know ISIS is going to murder them.  They aren't civilians coming up against their once accepted police force.

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    They actually had a chance (none / 0) (#87)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:26:13 AM EST
    They outnumbered their guards.....If they could have overpowered one or two of them and gotten their weapons, they could have escaped, or inflicted tremendous damage.

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    Such a warrior (2.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:31:12 AM EST
    It's clear you have a lot of experience having automatic weapons pointed at your head and rockets - oh, sorry, fireworks - pointed at your house.

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    It isn't a harsh judgement (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:49:13 AM EST
    At least not on my part.  These poor men are beyond all judgement now also.  It is just a little puzzling for some of us, how ISIS continues to get videos with such overwhelming compliance. And the soldiers should have some exposure to combat stressors.

    It takes me back to the interview that Ruffian heard on NPR of the Iraqi troop who said that they aren't important, their government does not care for them or about them and they receive miserable pay....yet their country is awash in oil.  Where are those profits going?  They should be going toward building a strong nation of cared for people.

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    Didn't think it was (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 04:02:04 PM EST
    And those guys didn't look like very hardened troops to me.
    I mean most soldiers are young but they don't usually have hipsterish haircuts.
    Or maybe they do.  They just looked like terrified kids.

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    Heartbreaking (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 04:42:31 PM EST


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    Just talking (none / 0) (#91)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:30:11 PM EST
    I upthread said how I could understand why they acted as they did.

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    Please, believe me (none / 0) (#98)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 03:49:39 PM EST
    in situations like that there is no time to think. That's done on purpose by the captors. Remember those scenes from the death camps, and, armed guards yelling, "Snell, Schnell!" Or, our own police today, " Get on the ground, Down on the ground!!" And, that's why you see the puzzled look on the captor's faces, afraid to do anything, or make a move that could trigger an already trigger-happy finger. That's when the batons come out, swing and flailing. Explanation later...."The perp refused to comply." (No sh!t, Sherlock, he's scared out of his wits, and, you made him this way.....on purpose, I should add)

    Howdy is right, when a guy with a loaded weapon pointed at your heads yells orders at you, you are going to comply; no time to think about what is going to happen 15 seconds later.

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    Howdy (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:41:18 PM EST
    You went all Howdy Doody on me with this snotty comment.  The personal attack is not appreciated.

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    You are going the way of the hawk (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:44:01 PM EST
    I do not agree with your take on Israel.  Or ISIS.

    Too bad. We have agreed on much in the past.

    But leave out the personal attacks.

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    "Going the way of the hawk" (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:00:43 PM EST
    I like it.  Maybe I will get a beret.

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    Don't go the way of Judy Miller (none / 0) (#114)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:02:37 PM EST
    It really never ceases to amaze me how many liberals buy into the hyping of national security threats....

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    If we're defining Cheney's catspaw... (none / 0) (#117)
    by unitron on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:34:09 PM EST
    ...as a liberal, then the word no longer has any meaning.

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    Miller Liberal? (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:39:13 PM EST
    certainly not, but the liberals who wet their beds worried about their way of life, and the way of life their Israeli friends were living, were buying her words hook line and stinker..

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    Did she have a beret? (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 07:41:16 PM EST


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    Like Monica Lewinsky? (none / 0) (#120)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 08:06:19 PM EST


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    speculation on why they didn't fight (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jack203 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 11:24:00 PM EST
    1.group think, nobody else was resisting
    2.fear of a harsher death than just a bullet in the head
    3.they weren't 100% sure they were going to be executed

    I would think after this video if a group of a couple hundred men are being huddled together to be executed by men with guns they outnumber > 10 to 1.  They will rebel.   Similar to a hostage situation on a plane.  After 9-11 I am certain there would be an open rebellion by the passengers before allowing terrorists to use a plane as a missle again.

    Atrocities in war are typically a sign of weakness and a byproduct of desperation.  The way these lunatics openly gloat about the atrocities they commit takes their desperation to a new level.  

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    It reminds me of the horrible Nazi footage... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:40:27 PM EST
    ...of those Jews hurrying off the trucks and into their places on the firing squad line, blasted and then collapesed into their ditchgraves.

    When all hope is lost, deathly escape becomes a surreal fetish.

    Yes, thank you (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 02:32:55 PM EST
    There are times when reference to the Nazi machine is appropriate, and, necessary if we're going to have meaningful teaching moments. Standing on self-imposed slogans, like "Godwin's law" dictates, is, sometimes, just plain dumb.

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    Godwin's Law... (none / 0) (#46)
    by unitron on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:47:56 PM EST
    ...doesn't say you can't mention them, it just says that the longer an online conversation continues, the more the chance approaches absolute certainty that someone will .

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    Yes, you're correct (none / 0) (#99)
    by NYShooter on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 03:54:00 PM EST
    that's the way it should be interpreted. But, usually what happens when someone make a Nazi reference (appropriately,) is that someone groans, points out Godwin's Law, and, the point of the thread is forgotten.

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    I don't see how anyone who has (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 03:59:35 PM EST
    Seen those WWII films would not think of them looking at the ISIS video.  

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    Factual? So were my points (none / 0) (#47)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    about the intelligence and lack of support from his 'subjects'.  

    We switched to the Saudis to be our local clients when we 'lost' Iran, at least they're still 'ours' for now.

    You are the one making things up.

    What color is the sky in your world, again?

    Murderous thugs are just fine ... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Yman on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:15:43 PM EST
    The question is.... Was he on our side.

    ... as long as they do our bidding.

    And you say you're not a conservative ...

    Sorry but these clowns just don't scare me. (none / 0) (#66)
    by Jack203 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:54:16 PM EST
    These are the guys that got their ass kicked by Assad.  So they moved to easier targets.  Lawless, hellhole cities in Iraq with majority dispossessed and angry Sunni populations.  ISIS just haven't done much to impress me yet. If they actually do, I'll take notice.

    One day Assad's Syrian forces will commit an atrocity, the next day ISIS will commit one, the next day Maliki's Iraqi government will.

    Whose side are we on today, will be on tomorrow.  Who the hell knows.

    Crazed RW patriotism (none / 0) (#126)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 09:02:24 AM EST
    is one hell of a drug.

    Patriotism (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 09:04:27 AM EST
    "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde

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    Jim (none / 0) (#129)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 10:03:10 AM EST
    Your willful obtuseness precedes you at this point.

    Is Christian is as Christian does really too heady a concept for you? Apparently so.

    Right-wing christians (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 11:33:50 AM EST
    are saved by faith, not works. And by sending checks to The 700 Club.

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    That Was Fricken... (none / 0) (#131)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 01:57:56 PM EST
    ...hilarious.

    And the bombing of Muslim women and children won't keep you out.

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    ISIS Mass Massacre in Tikrit: "Down By the River" | 110 comments (110 topical)

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