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George Zimmerman's Bond Revoked

Even driving to Aspen I can't escape the news (I stopped for gas and turned on my iPad.)

Judge Mark Lester has revoked George Zimmerman's bond.

Here is the Motion to Revoke Bond filed today, and the partial transcript of his wife's testimony at the April bond hearing.

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    not the brightest (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CST on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 02:45:34 PM EST
    crayon in the box.

    Every step of the way he's been his own worst enemy.

    no name calling (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:34:36 PM EST
    I was nearly banned for it.

    I agree with you though. And it started with his decision to carry a gun.

    Lying to the judge does bring it to an entire new level.

    And now for my not a lawyer stupid question.

    Is lying to the judge evidence that could hurt him in his murder trail?

    Parent

    point taken (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by CST on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:36:16 PM EST
    I thought I was being generous...

    Parent
    I doubt it is admissible. Unless Mr. (none / 0) (#44)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:56:33 PM EST
    Zimmerman or a character witness touts his reputation for honesty.  

    Parent
    If he chooses to testify -- (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:26:24 PM EST
    and it is pretty hard to win a self-defense case without testifying -- then his credibility is on the table, and instances of lying in relation to the same case will definitely be usable against him on cross-examination. Of course, he can deny and/or explain any claims that he knowingly lied (or tried to obstruct justice by concealing a passport, etc.).

    Parent
    But does "the same case" include (none / 0) (#186)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:38:48 PM EST
    bail hearing?  Doubt it.  

    Parent
    I did not mean to imply that instances of lying (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:02:45 PM EST
    under oath, if the jury finds them to be lies, can only be used if they arose in the same case.  Cross-examination for credibility is actually much more open-ended than that.  But as to your precise question, Oculus, I have no doubt at all that the truthfulness of testimony offered at a pretrial hearing in the same case (such as the bail hearing) would be considered highly pertinent by any judge, and probably by any jury as well.

    Parent
    I'm not as sure as you are. Yes, if defendant (none / 0) (#202)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:12:54 PM EST
    testified at the bail hearing as to the circumstances surrounding the alleged offense.  And chooses to testify at trial about those circumstances.  

    Parent
    May I ask what jurisdiction you practice in, (5.00 / 3) (#206)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:24:10 PM EST
    if you are a lawyer, with how many years' experience, and in what specialty?  Because your "guesses" and opinions, Oculus, over and over seem outside the range of reasonable differences of professional opinion and experience, to me (based on 35 yrs or so in criminal law, mostly federal and some Pennsylvania, including six as a professor of law, and briefing hundreds of appeals).

    Parent
    Yes, it sure would seem to (none / 0) (#204)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:21:21 PM EST
    impact the SYG hearing by this judge--who revoked rather than increased the bail, at least at this time   However, it has long been my view that it would be difficult for Mr. Zimmerman to obtain a favorable decision in a SYG hearing, and it would, at least, go to the DCA for appeal.  The credibility seems so shaken as to merit  pause on the part of the defense as to not requesting a SYG hearing and going directly to trial.  But, the charge is so serious that the defense probably will be willing to take whatever risk there may be in so doing.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#4)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 02:53:44 PM EST
    From Jeralyn's link:

    "SANFORD - Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester has revoked George Zimmerman's bond in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

    Zimmerman now has 48 hours to turn himself in to authorities.

    The decision came after the revelation that Zimmerman and his wife may have conspired to lie about thousands of dollars in donations they'd collected before his bond hearing.

    In a new motion, prosecutors accused Zimmerman and his wife of lying to the judge during a bond hearing about money they collected for his defense.

    Prosecutors allege Zimmerman's wife knew about the donations her husband had collected through a PayPal account, but didn't mention the money at his bond hearing.

    The account ultimately collected about $200,000, his attorney later revealed.

    "Defendant has intentionally deceived the court with the assistance of his wife," the motion says. "During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing."

    Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda told the judge today that "this court was led to believe that they didn't have a single penny" at the earlier bond hearing.

    Zimmerman's wife "flat out lied to this court," de la Rionda said. Lester agreed, revoking Zimmerman's bond. He must turn himself in, the judge said.

    Argument on the bond issue came after Lester heard argument about whether he should seal key evidence in the case from the public, including the names of witnesses and the statements Zimmerman made to law enforcement."

    If that's true, dumb doesn't even begin to describe it.

    Parent

    Help me out here (none / 0) (#5)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 02:57:37 PM EST
    wasn't the fundraising website common knowledge by this time?

    Parent
    Yes, I think so (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:05:25 PM EST
    But the big issues are that there seem to have been significant assets in it when they were in court during the bail hearing claiming not to have any money and according to the prosecutors, they might knew the money was there and conspired to conceal that fact.  That's a pretty big deal.

    Parent
    Of greater significance, in my opinion, (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:13:54 PM EST
    is this part:

    "During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing."

    Seems to take some of the "innocent mistake" quality out of representations made on Zimmerman's behalf.

    I can't imagine Mark O'Mara can be any too pleased by this, and it's clearly not sitting well with Judge Lester.

    Parent

    O'Mara (5.00 / 0) (#135)
    by expy on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:37:09 PM EST
    really should have insisted on a full accounting before even bringing the initial bail motion.

    I think that's a significant lapse on the attorney's part. You don't go into court and put your client & family members on the witness stand without at least having previously assembled simple documentation like recent bank statements.  

    Of course... it is possible that O'Mara did ask for those things and was presented with false or incomplete information. (Such as statements from different bank accounts, such as a personal PayPal account instead of the one linked to the web site for donations).  It does seem clear from the jail phone conversation that Zimmerman & his wife were intent on moving money around.  

    Parent

    Wonder when he had a facepalm moment... (none / 0) (#13)
    by magster on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:15:15 PM EST
    Code charge ridiculous (none / 0) (#14)
    by Cylinder on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:18:53 PM EST
    The speaking code claim is ridiculous. His wife said 15 to mean 15,000. Some code.

    Parent
    Good luck with that (none / 0) (#15)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:29:43 PM EST
    It doesn't have to be US military grade code but seriously, GZ now has a couple of problems.  

    It looks like they knew money was in the account before the bail hearing but, to try and get  bail, they claimed during the hearing they didn't have any, or very little, assets and didn't mention that money in the account.

    They might have conspired to conceal that they knew money was in the account before the bail hearing.

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#20)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:34:56 PM EST
    They might have considered that the money in the PayPal account was for his defense and "their" money was something completely separate.

    Parent
    Uh....who is paying for his defense? He would be (none / 0) (#22)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:38:45 PM EST
    responsible,no?

    Parent
    But that account was frozen (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:54:06 PM EST
    From April 26th  Anderson Cooper show on CNN:

    COOPER: Mark, we spoke earlier this week and you told me that you had conflicting information on how much money had been raised through George Zimmerman's Web site, the account that he set up. You said you'd been told that anywhere from $700 to $800 to a couple of thousand dollars. You now say it's much more than that.

    How much money specifically to your knowledge has been raised by George Zimmerman and -- and his supporters?

    O'MARA: Well, my understanding was there were two accounts. One with about $700 and one with about $2,000 by some friends of his. In talking to George, after I was trying to shut down his full Internet presence, because of some impersonators and other problems with Twitter and Facebook, he asked me what to do with his PayPal accounts. And I asked him what he was talking about. And he said those are the accounts that had the money from the Web site he had and that there was about $200,000, $204,000 that had come in to date.

    COOPER: $200,000 to $204,000. That's obviously a very significant amount of money.

    O'MARA: Yes.

    COOPER: When did you learn that?

    O'MARA: Yesterday?

    COOPER: OK. So --

    O'MARA: Yes, I was sort of surprised. I think you and I had talked on Monday about it and I'd said about the two that I did know about. When he advised me yesterday after we were closing out all of his Internet presence and the PayPal accounts is when we found out about it.

    COOPER: Would this have affected his bond hearing? Because you told the judge basically he was indigent. He got $150,000 bond, he only had to pay about 10 percent of it. Would that have made a difference had the judge known that he had $200,000 in PayPal accounts?

    O'MARA: It might have. I'm certainly going to disclose it to the court tomorrow. Coincidentally, we have a hearing. Certainly we'd acknowledge that he did not have funds available to him and these were. I'm not certain that he thought in some sense that they were available to him because even after the bond was granted, it was the family who was trying to come up with enough money for the bond.
    And I guess if they thought that they had full, easy access to it, they simply could have used that. But now that I'm aware of it, we're certainly going to deal with it in a much more transparent way, probably bring in someone like an accountant to assist me with administering it, and just deal with it very openly.

    COOPER: Do you worry that some people are going to believe that you misled the court or the court itself might believe that you tried to mislead him and there are some people who are going see this and wonder how a defense attorney couldn't know that his client's financial situation, that he had $200,000 in PayPal accounts?

    O'MARA: True. I'll deal with that fallout if it's there. I don't think Judge Lester is going to believe that I misled him. I told him what I knew at the time, which is exactly what I was aware of. As soon as I became aware of more money, we dealt with it affirmatively. Put it into an account where it's protected so that it is now secure. I'm not touching it, nobody is touching it until we figure out how to handle it.

    And then we disclosed it actually to everyone we could, including this program since it was on this program that we had talked about there only being the two Web sites and PayPal accounts that I was aware of.

    COOPER: Are you upset that George Zimmerman didn't disclose this to you earlier? Do you -- I mean do you feel like he was trying to keep it from you? Or what?

    O'MARA: I truly don't think so because it was almost offhand that we discussed, and he said what to do with all the money in the PayPal accounts after we closed out his presence. And I asked him what he talked about. He told me the amount. I said, well, that's a significant amount of money, we need to secure that because we need to make sure that we administer it properly. And it came right to me. He'd literally FedEx'd me the checks.

    Look, I'm not saying this isn't a big deal - it is a very big deal. This will hurt his credibility. But I can see how he and his wife were talking about the "15" being the 10% bond he needed to post coming from this account.  Zimmerman was arrested on April 12, these conversations with his wife were between April 12 and the end of April.  O'Mara informed the court about the accounts.  Now, I think his wife might be in trouble, depending on what she actually said, as opposed to the paraphrasing we are reading about in the reports.

    But I don't necessarily think overall that it will oblieterate his case - that being, determining if he shot Martin in self-defense or not.

    Parent

    O'Mara doing very good work for his client but.... (none / 0) (#51)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:03:06 PM EST
    I'm not certain that he thought in some sense that they were available to him because even after the bond was granted, it was the family who was trying to come up with enough money for the bond.

    that is pure spin. The calls in the Motion show him and his wife talking about the account, directing funds, transferring funds and talking about using certain amounts for bail.  

    Parent

    That would be more convincing (none / 0) (#25)
    by Karl Baden on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:41:21 PM EST
    if she hadn't said "That's what it's for." (IIRC) during the phone call when they talked about posting bail.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#26)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:42:09 PM EST
    When Zimmerman set up the website and began soliciting funds, he said the funds raised would be for legal expenses and personal living expenses, since he could not work.

    I have created a Paypal account solely linked on this website as I would like to provide an avenue to thank my supporters personally and ensure that any funds provided are used only for living expenses and legal defense, in lieu of my forced inability to maintain employment. I will also personally, maintain accountability of all funds received. I reassure you, every donation is appreciated.

    He also used @ $50,000 of the $200,000 raised to pay living expenses, debts, etc.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#37)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:51:28 PM EST
    he used 50k in what, a month or so of "living expenses"?

    Parent
    I think part of that ... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:14:58 PM EST
    ... $50,000 was for his bond, some for Paypal fees and @ $1,000 for phone cards and the prison commissary, with the balance being used to pay for housing and payoff debts.  O'Mara had a statement on his website, but it seems to have disappeared.

    Apparently, the pace of fundraising has also slowed greatly.  After O'Mara set up his website, they collected about $15,424 in @ 2 weeks, according to a statement on O'Mara's site.

    Parent

    And another thing....I believe the PayPal account (none / 0) (#27)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:42:18 PM EST
    must have had his bank routing number on it since he set it up.

    Parent
    Check out the Motion to Revoke (none / 0) (#35)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:49:09 PM EST
    It looks telling. If those conversations between GZ and SZ are accurate, it seems they both kept track of and knew how much was in the Paypal/website account and were actively directing the funds from that account to the Credit Union account before the bail hearing. But they claimed indigent during the bail hearing and the wife claimed she didn't know what was in the account.      

    Parent
    you're kidding, right? (none / 0) (#155)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:52:05 PM EST
    "They might have considered that the money in the PayPal account was for his defense and "their" money was something completely separate."

    And it makes perfect sense to not share that information with the judge nor your lawyer.

    Geeze. Are you kidding around or what?

    Parent

    i didn't say (2.00 / 0) (#158)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:53:52 PM EST
    I believed it.  But a 2nd year law student could make the argument.

    Parent
    If he didn't want to be a 3rd yr law student (5.00 / 4) (#159)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:55:04 PM EST
    Do you mean the charge was ... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:34:44 PM EST
    ... "ridiculous", or the code itself was ridiculous?

    BTW - Where did you read the "15" - "15,000" claim?

    Parent

    de la Rionda's oral argument (none / 0) (#31)
    by Cylinder on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:44:31 PM EST
    That was from de la Rionda's oral argument. What I find strange is that he used that language in court without mentioning the word [i]dollar[/i] and in the motion, he uses the dollor sign ($) instead of the transcribed word dollar.

    I wonder what the recording shows.

    I realize that sounds a bit tin-foil, but it seems odd to me how he's touting that stupid code thing.

    Parent

    I think the 'code' thing (none / 0) (#45)
    by Karl Baden on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:58:27 PM EST
    was just a slightly clumsy attempt to say that they sounded unusually terse and as if they didn't want to give away more than necessary.

    Parent
    O'Mara's reaction (none / 0) (#24)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:41:10 PM EST
    O'Mara seems to have a better understanding of the whole situation and the context in which it occurred.

    Outside the courthouse, O'Mara said he hopes the judge's revocation of bond would be temporary. "I hope he'll give us a day in court to explain George's behavior and look at all the circumstances," the lawyer said. "I understand the state's position; I disagree with it."

    Parent

    What else would you expect? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:43:45 PM EST
    A public chastising of his own client on the courthouse steps in front of the media?

    Parent
    Well, of course he would say that. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:44:31 PM EST
    I would be surprised if he didn't make that particular comment.

    Parent
    I can't believe it didn't come up with (none / 0) (#11)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:13:49 PM EST
    his attorneys prior to the hearing . . .
    I mean, really? A site to raise money for the trial and nobody checked?

    Trying to hide it sounds equally as dumb . . .

    Parent

    lying under oath (none / 0) (#17)
    by Clara Bow Again on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:34:34 PM EST
    Was Sheila Zimmerman under oath when she spoke at the hearing? George Zimmerman is the son of a judge, you would think, he would understand the ramifications of such actions. It is becoming more & more apparent, he is really a loose cannon.

    Parent
    Sworn Telephone Witnesses (5.00 / 0) (#192)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:47:09 PM EST

    I've heard audio of that part of the hearing. There was someone in the room with the telephone witnesses with authority to take their oaths. They were all sworn.

    Parent
    According to (none / 0) (#93)
    by MarvinM on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:44:27 PM EST
    a local TV news report I just watched, a reporter in Sanford said SZ gave her testimony by phone and had been sworn in.

    He also reported that she wanted to testify over the phone because she did not want to be seen on the TV and have herself be more identifiable.  I can totally understand that.

    The reporter also said the judge adamantly wants the two of them to explain themselves about this to him face-to-face and suggested the judge would not allow phone testimony this time.  

    This short report didn't have much more except that it didn't make much of the passport problem, but only in reference to that the judge apparently didn't think Z's having the two passports was a big deal, but did not go into what size deal the judge might have had regarding what Z said about his passport and the actual facts.

    Parent

    I knew of the website, even went to it to see what (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:37:13 PM EST
    it was all about.  There was a PayPal link on there.  

    I have two PayPal accounts that I manage through my work and I know they send an email every single time we have a donation or payment come through.  Plus, I get a monthly statement electronically.  Plus, plus I have online access 24/7/365 to view any and every transaction.  

    No excuse to claim they didn't know if or how much money was in the account.  

    Parent

    That's what I thought (none / 0) (#41)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:54:52 PM EST
    been awhile since I used PP, but I seem to remember any money transaction was followed up by an email.

    And since they were planning on living off the funds, you would think they would have kept up with the amount, right?

    Parent

    They kept up with it enough to spend 50k of it (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:56:56 PM EST
    Pretty hard to believe they did not know what they were doing.

    Parent
    The amount of $$$ in the paypal (none / 0) (#7)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:05:18 PM EST
    account did not come to light until after Zimmerman had been granted bail. At the time, Zimmerman and his wife claimed they did not know they had all that money in paypal.

    This sounds like Judge Lester has now determined that the Zimmerman's lied at the time bail was set.

    Parent

    How could they not know? (none / 0) (#10)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:11:14 PM EST
    Paypal sends emails iirc. Plus, it's one of the easiest things to check . . . and you would think they would since it was $$$ specifically for this purpose (the trial etc).

    Dumb.

    Parent

    Remember... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:43:46 PM EST
    ...they were saying they didn't know it was so much and that only his brother knew the exact amount, who at the time couldn't make it to court they said.

    I called BS then, they were supposedly broke and no one mentioned a large sum of money before a hearing that would require a large sum of money.  It simply wasn't plausible.

    What I don't get, is why hide it ?  They clearly have enough to post a large bond which they would eventually get back.  And if they prove he lied... well it might be deal time for GZ.  I am assuming that lying to the judge is admissible if it goes to trial.

    And I find almost insulting that every GZ post has had these deep and lengthy analysis, all pro GZ, except the one about him lying in open court.  All we get is a blurb.

    Parent

    I didn't know he was so young (none / 0) (#63)
    by IgnatiusJDonnely on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:12:53 PM EST
    "Late teens" "I don't know where the kid is."
    He lied at the Bond hearing too. "i Didn't know he was so young."
    I've always felt that he spun the events of 2/26  in his favor as well. Zimmie is a comfortable liar.

    Parent
    Paypal sends you an email once a (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:46:55 PM EST
    month. Not on daily changes.

    Parent
    No, that's wrong. They send an email every (none / 0) (#36)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:50:39 PM EST
    time you get money in your account.  You also get an electronic statement monthly.  And you have online access 24/7/365.  See my comment #21 in this thread.

    Parent
    Zimmerman was in jail. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:53:42 PM EST
    He did not have access to the internet in jail and could not check his emails until after he was released.

    Parent
    He could have asked his wife or father to (none / 0) (#42)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:55:39 PM EST
    retrieve his emails.  Double duh.  

    Parent
    I think you should read the motion (none / 0) (#43)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:55:55 PM EST
    that bmaz linked to, below.

    Parent
    Other people besides George Z are involved... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Addison on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:47:22 PM EST
    ...and their statements at the bond hearing (which they apparently knew to be false) are at issue re: the amount of his bond and the revocation of that bond.

    Parent
    Completely untrue (none / 0) (#56)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:06:59 PM EST
    Paypal notifies you by email for every deposit.

    Parent
    Credibility in question now, IMO. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:33:52 PM EST


    good grief (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:00:04 PM EST
    Amazing.

    http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=16476183&sid=81

    "In recordings of conversations released today during a court hearing, Zimmerman and his wife, Shelly Zimmerman, cryptically talk about his second passport in a safety deposit box they shared.

    Although one of his passports was due to expire in May, prosecutors said today, Zimmerman applied for a second passport, informing the State Department that the original had been lost lost or stolen."


    First (none / 0) (#52)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:03:52 PM EST
    He should have told his lawyer about the second passport and turned it over.

    But other than that - so what?  I thought I lost my driver's license and gotten a new one, and then the original showed up weeks later when I was cleaning - it had fallen behind a desk.  I kept both of them.  The only thing that I can see being nefarious about a "second passport" is if it had a different identity on it.  I mean, George Zimmerman is known throughout the world at this point - you think he's gonna use a passport with his name on it and try and escape?

    Parent

    lost passport (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:34:47 PM EST
    If he turned in the passport that was due to expire and kept the new one he has a big problem.

    Let me see if I can follow you here.

    I lose my passport.

    Apply for a new one.

    Find the old passport and turn it over to the court as required.

    New passport shows up in my safety deposit box.

    I didn't know anything about the 2nd passport.

    Yeah right.

    Parent

    Except he did know about the second, more (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:38:41 PM EST
    current passport because he told his wife to keep it in the safe. See item #10 in the motion.  Wonder how he's going to explain that one.

    Parent
    Okay (none / 0) (#55)
    by sj on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:06:27 PM EST
    I see your point.  But I don't see how he could "forget" that he had two.

    Parent
    Stress of being arrested? (none / 0) (#57)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:08:08 PM EST
    I dunno, but if it was in a safe deposit box, is it necessarily the first thing you think of - especially when you have the original?

    I think he and the Mrs. are in a world of hurt here and O'Mara is going to have to do some pretty incredible tap dancing to get around it.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#81)
    by sj on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:29:40 PM EST
    It isn't something I would remember until I needed one.  I use my passport only upon occasion.  I never think about it until I need it.  So yes, under my present circumestances I would remember that I had two of them.

    Now if I used my passport frequently and had it readily available to use on a moment's notice I might not recall that the one I usually grab wasn't the only one I had.

    However, If I were asked to surrender my passport, I'm pretty sure I would recall the backup version.  And it sounds like they knew he had another one in their "back pocket".

    What on earth did they think they were going to do with that,  I wonder?  

    But really, what do I know?  And why the heck am I in a Zimmerman thread?  Outta here.  See you later.

    Parent

    Did you read the motion and the parts of the (none / 0) (#59)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:09:20 PM EST
    recorded conversations related to the passport?  Zimmerman told his wife to keep the second passport, which was the current replacement passport.  The other passport (the one reported as stolen) was about to expire.  (Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I read the motion.)

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#61)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:11:03 PM EST
    I'm not excusing it, but then again, I've never been arrested for murder either.  He could have told her that one day, and then at the bond hearing, forgotten about it and thought he answered truthfully - I have no idea. It SEEMS like that's something you would tell, but who knows?

    Parent
    I'll bet he remembers next time (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:09:05 PM EST
    "He could have told her that (2nd passport) one day, and then at the bond hearing, forgotten about it and thought he answered truthfully"

    I'll bet he remembers next time.

    Zimmerman made an incredibly stupid choice to lie.

    And will likely get to enjoy a jail cell until the trial for it.

    And it is so richly deserved.


    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:25:10 PM EST
    Even if you give him a pass on the passort issue, how can you ignore what appear to be rather blatant falsehoods about the money and claims of being indigent?  

    Parent
    He's Done (none / 0) (#125)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:31:33 PM EST
    The entire case is hinged on his version of the events which means the jury has to believe him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't make a run for it and if I was his family, I would keep an eye on him.  If he was depressed before this could be too much.  Once he turns himself in, he isn't going to be free for a long time IMO.

    Parent

    Wow (4.00 / 3) (#69)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:20:24 PM EST
    The law and order fanatic thinks it's time to give murder suspects the benefit of the doubt about concealing a duplicate passport.  He had mind enough to discuss it with his wife, but I guess it just slipped his mind when the judge made him surrender one of them.

    Didn't you just post something about Obama drones infinite hypocrisy ?  Might want to check the pot there Ms Kettle.  Because the knots republicans are tying themselves into over GZ is pretty damn funny.  There is something about the law and order types falling over themselves to give this defendant every benefit of the doubt, even after he lied to a judge.

    Parent

    exactly (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:12:04 PM EST
    "The law and order fanatic thinks it's time to give murder suspects the benefit of the doubt about concealing a duplicate passport.  He had mind enough to discuss it with his wife, but I guess it just slipped his mind when the judge made him surrender one of them."

    Exactly.

    Parent

    You say that (none / 0) (#73)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:22:47 PM EST
    "Law and order types" like it's a BAD thing. Nope, it really isn't.

    I don't think, as I said below, the passport thing is a big deal - thejudge gave him 48 hours to turn himself in.  If they are so worried about him fleeing, he would be in jail right now.

    Parent

    Of Course You Don't... (4.00 / 4) (#86)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:36:27 PM EST
    ...not a republican on the planet today thinks it's a big deal.  What could one do with a duplicate, it's all a mistake, and 50 other reason why this is no big deal ?  Never mind the that pesky fact that he lied to a judge, we don't need to bring that up, and what does that have to do with a second passport...

    But today the "Law and Order" types have suddenly found some compassion and more importantly, they are standing inline to give a murder suspect who lied to a judge, the benefit of the doubt.  

    When is the last time that happened ?  At least you could put some sort of effort into not being so ridiculously transparent.  After all you get warned weekly about slamming defendants or calling for harsher penalties, but today you found some sort of enlightenment.

    I am literally so amused by this, that I am staying late to take it all in.  I am definitely bookmarking this post for future reference, so please continue...

    Parent

    Good (none / 0) (#92)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:40:52 PM EST
    You are cracking me up to with your puffery and indignation. It's truly hilarious.

    Sue me - I believe that to live in a civil society there must be rules and that people must follow the rules.  If they do not, then there are consequences.  I don't understand why that's controversial or complicated to understand.  I think we make too many excuses for people who screw up.

    If it turns out he really did lie about this stuff - throw the book at him.  I just see very easy arguments on the other side.

    Rah, rah, sis boom bah!

    Parent

    I Couldn't Resist (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:09:14 PM EST
    I mean seriously, there is no one who gets more warnings about laying off defendants than JB.  How am I to resist a day when she jumps the fence and her posts appear as if they were all written by the most ardent defendant loving liberal.

    Feel free to return the favor should I ever slip to the other side in a post.  

    Parent

    keep 'em coming (none / 0) (#160)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:55:54 PM EST
    My coworkers are loving it.

    Parent
    A false stolen passport report (none / 0) (#136)
    by the capstan on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:37:19 PM EST
    is a federal offense, I believe.  When a passport expires, the last time I got one at least, you sent in the old one and it was defaced in some fashion before being returned.  I've a faint memory of my husband's passport 'going missing' and some resulting upset--but then he was a physicist with gov't clearance who traveled abroad a good bit during the Cold War.  Not really the same situation.

    Parent
    Here's the State Dept. form for (none / 0) (#165)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:15:16 PM EST
    "lost or stolen" passport.  Must be signed under penalty of perjury:

    link

    Parent

    Here is a sample form DS 11, (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:37:58 PM EST
    application for passport/card.  It must also be signed under penalty of perjury:  link

    Parent
    You Gotta Admit... (none / 0) (#66)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:14:40 PM EST
    ...GZ is the brightest fellow.  I can't imagine why he would lie to a judge in court or follow a suspicious person who he thought was packing at night.

    And you don't think now that maybe he isn't the most credible person.  Good gravy, he knows there is a really good chance they are going to want his passport and he doesn't think he should mention that he's applied for another ?  

    I don't like what he did, but I have been giving him the benefit of the doubt, but the 'awe shucks i didn't know' bit has ran out.  

    No one is that stupid.

    Parent

    And yet (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:16:50 PM EST
    He still has injuries with someone who was beaten up.  That's not made up.

    As CST said - I don't think he's the brightest crayon in the box.

    Parent

    Looks Like He's a Lying One as Well (3.00 / 2) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:22:55 PM EST
    But keep falling over yourself to defend this murder suspect, it's great Friday afternoon entertainment.  

    You couldn't be more transparent.

    Parent

    Whatever (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:25:38 PM EST
    I'm not defending anything, but I don't drink the Kool-Aid.

    Parent
    KoolAid ?? (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:39:18 PM EST
    You might wanna Wiki that one, I am not the one falling over myself vehemently defensing a murder suspect who lied to a judge.

    Parent
    It is wonderful you are advancing (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:35:49 PM EST
    the purposes of this defense-oriented blog while J is away.  [snk.]

    Parent
    Community service. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:36:54 PM EST
    I was wondering about the overlapping (none / 0) (#53)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:05:37 PM EST
    passports. . . . .

    Parent
    Man (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:13:32 PM EST
    do I feel sorry for his lawyer. You know he had to be lying to his lawyer the entire time for all this stuff to be coming up. I'm sure his lawyer would have been able to advise him on what to do with this situation.

    Okay.... (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:17:12 PM EST
    I linked the motion before I got back from court and had a chance to really read it.  Both the money issue and the passport issues do make Zimmerman look bad, but I am not sure that is fatal.  Calling how he and his wife are talking about "10" or "15" as code is asinine.  That is how people talk about money every day.  If I was talking about moving ten or 15 thousand among our accounts with my wife, that is exactly how I would talk.  I think a story can be crafted to clean this up, and that it probably is not quite as bad as it looks

    The passport deal, my guess is, he says "hey that one was never used and I had no intention of using it, I didn't even think it was active" or some spiel like that. Lame to an extent, but what else is he going to say?

    Neither one are quite the blockbusters they are being made out to be, but they still make Zimmerman look pretty bad.  I would think bond would be reset for him, but who knows. The best thing he has going is that he has always turned himself in and never has ran; I assume he will do just that again. We shall see.

    The problem is not just the "code" (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:40:05 PM EST
    That's just the prosceutor's drama.  The main problems are that it appears that they knew money was in the account and were actively directing and moving moving funds before the bail hearing.  But, when they got to the bail hearing, they claimed indigent and the wife claimed she didn't know if any funds were in the account.

    I think the judge rightfully called it a material falsehood and I don't see how that can be cleaned up.

    Parent

    It's DEFINITELY how you ... (5.00 / 0) (#96)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    ... talk about money when you're claiming to be indigent, and you're discussing the options of paying $10,000, $15,000 or $100,000 in cash, versus a 10 percent bond.

    "If the bond is more than 15, pay the 15.  If more than 15, pat the 10 percent to the bondsman.

    "You don't want me to pay $100?"

    "I don't know"

    "All right, just think about it."

    "I will"

    "That's what it's for".

    BTW - Maybe you omit the "thousand" when discussing payments of $10,000, $15,000 or $100,000, but that's not how "people talk about money every day" - particularly those who are unemployed and claiming to be indigent.

    Parent

    Bingo (none / 0) (#99)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:57:18 PM EST
    It also shows active planning and knowledge before the bail hearing whether you find the "code" angle interesting or not.  

    Parent
    And so you say (none / 0) (#103)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    I could fashion together a story to make all of it look innocuous.  It is all in what is sold and what is bought.  Those here claiming DOOOOM for Zimmerman are nuts, as for that matter is anybody who thinks it is all totally explainable and irrelevant (although I have seen none of that here).  

    All that has been submitted to record lately is the spew of de la Rionda who is not, in my book, the most astute or forthright of prosecutors.  We shall see where the actual facts take us; they are not all in yet.

    Parent

    Yes I believe that... (none / 0) (#110)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:09:07 PM EST
    I'm sure you could fashion a story.  It would still probably fail but tou could fashion a story.  Also, you are exaggerating the "Doom" thing.  I don't seen anybody claiming that except you as a rhetorical tactic.

    Parent
    On a jail phone (none / 0) (#104)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:01:53 PM EST
    this is exactly how you speak unless you want other inmates to overhear how much money you might have in order to prevent potential theft, stalking of wife or blackmail.

    Parent
    You've missed the point (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by expy on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:26:27 PM EST
    The issue isn't the language used in describing the funds.

    The issue is that the wife subsequently testified in court that she did not know what funds were available or in the account.  The recordings made clear that she was directly involved in making money transfers and clearly knew what the account balance was.

    Parent

    4 days (none / 0) (#167)
    by friendofinnocence on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:30:30 PM EST
    The last discussion referred to in the motion was four days before the bond hearing.

    Parent
    Which, of course ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:39:17 PM EST
    ... is an entirely different theory than the one I was responding to.

    No more believable, ...

    ... but different.

    BTW - Were they also afraid of the judge doing these things (theft, stalking and/or blackmail) when she testified re: their lack of assets?

    Parent

    Code (none / 0) (#122)
    by friendofinnocence on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:26:53 PM EST
    Zimmerman and his wife had plenty of time to discuss not using large dollar amounts on the telephone while he was in jail during the run up to his arrest.

    Do you know exactly which phone Zimmerman was speaking on during these conversations and how many inmates could overhear their conversations?

    Have you not wondered where the conversation is in which they decided not to use the money for bail, and the reasoning behind it?

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#175)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:42:26 PM EST
    Good luck with that.

    Parent
    I can't believe I'm hearing this (none / 0) (#183)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:31:48 PM EST
    the sad fact is that now the judge, the cops, and the lawyers know that the Zimmermans are LIARS.

    Doesn't matter what these geniuses here, with their Monty Python, hilarious "Explanations" of blatant, bald faced lies being told to the trial judge believe.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#70)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:21:05 PM EST
    It seems like if the passport was really a big deal, the judge wouldn't have given him 48 hours to turn himself in - he would have issued an immediate arrest warrant.

    Parent
    Zimmerman turned himself in before (none / 0) (#124)
    by expy on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:29:05 PM EST
    And if he doesn't show up within 48 hours, then clearly an arrest warrant will issue.

    Parent
    why would he have turned himself in? (none / 0) (#156)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:52:08 PM EST
    They didn't have enough to arrest him at that point with SYG

    Parent
    keeps getting better (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:20:24 PM EST
    "Prosecutors say he had $135,000 at the time Zimmerman's wife, Shellie, told the court, under oath, that they were indigent."

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

    And as posted somewhere else the hilarity of the entire event is the $200,000 donated by the right wingers ended up sending Zimmerman and now possible his wife, to jail.

    Now that just makes my day.

    Right (1.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:35:53 PM EST
    wingers are the most gullible people on the face of this earth I have decided. Look at how many people have been able to grift money off of them before even the GZ case came into the spotlight.

    Parent
    who are you profiling as 'wingers' (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:45:43 PM EST
    I have never voted for a republican in my life. I marched in just about every protest against Bush and the war in San Francisco back when Kos convinced so many dems protesting was counter productive. I was actively involved in gay marriage rights and medical marijuana legalization in CA.

    I voted for Obama. I am fiercely indepedent. I am pro-justice. Take your prejudice and stereotypes and shove them...

    Parent

    Excuse (5.00 / 0) (#162)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:02:09 PM EST
    me but was I responding to you? No, I was not. The post above referred to right wingers giving money to GZ. You're awfully defensive about a post that wasn't even directed to you.

    Parent
    Yes you were talking to me, I support (none / 0) (#164)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:12:58 PM EST
    the Zimmerman defense fund and will donate more in your honor.

    Parent
    give generously (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:28:21 PM EST
    "Yes you were talking to me, I support (none / 0) (#164)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:12:58 PM EST
    the Zimmerman defense fund and will donate more in your honor."

    You had better give generously. The price of keeping him out of jail has gone up a lot.

    And good luck. Fine decent clear thinking person you have chosen to associate with.

    And you might consider ponying up for the Mrs. as well. Looks like she's now gonna need a lawyer with the perjury thing and all.

    Parent

    From your link (none / 0) (#128)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:33:34 PM EST
    Lester appeared angry that the court had not been told about the money. "Does your client get to sit there like a potted palm and let you lead me down the primrose path?" he asked Zimmerman's lawyer. "That's the issue."

    The judge is hot.  

    Parent

    Too bad he did not practice his potted palm (none / 0) (#130)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:35:14 PM EST
    imitation on Feb 26.

    Parent
    what is it they say? It's never the crime (none / 0) (#129)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:34:03 PM EST
    It's always the coverup that gets you in the end.

    Parent
    Alleged crime, I should say (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:36:18 PM EST
    and alleged coverup.

    Parent
    "In your opinion"? (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:51:46 PM EST
    Truthfully claimed she had no estimate it seems. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:37:00 PM EST
    135,000 to 200,000 is a huge difference. Seems like nobody had the ability to make and an reasonable estimate. She was not lying when she stated "Currently, I do not know."

    Q: Were you aware of the website that Mr. Zimmerman or somebody on his behalf
    created?
    A: I'm aware of that website.
    Q: How much money is in that website right now? How much money as a result of that
    website was ---
    A: Currently, I do not know.
    Q: Do you have an estimate as to how much money has already been obtained or
    collected?

    A: I do not.


    Parent

    She did not know to the penny, I believe that (5.00 / 0) (#140)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:42:24 PM EST
    I  frankly do not believe she could not give an estimate, even if it was hedged to the max, like
    'I don't know for sure but somewhere between 100 and 200 thousand dollars. ' They were already spending the money on living expenses.

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:46:20 PM EST
    Clearly she had an estimate because the conversations you didn't excerpt show her being actively involved in "managing" (tracking and moving funds)in the account and discussing what amount to put toward bail with GZ.

    Parent
    That's not all she testified to (5.00 / 0) (#178)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:56:24 PM EST

    O'MARA: Do you own the home that you live or lived in?

    S. ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

    O'MARA: Other major assets that you have which you can liquidate reasonably to assist in coming up with money for a bond?

    S. ZIMMERMAN: None that I know of.

    O'MARA: I discussed with you the pending motion to have your husband, George, declared indigent for cost, have I not?

    S. ZIMMERMAN: Yes, you have.

    O'MARA: Are you of any financial means where you could assist in those costs?

    S. ZIMMERMAN: Not that I'm aware of.

    Even if you want to stretch to claim she couldn't give an estimate as to the Paypal balances because she didn't know the exact balance, these statements are demonstrably false.

    Parent

    Great catch (none / 0) (#193)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:48:15 PM EST
    SZ will be very fortunate to avoid a perjury charge.

    Parent
    How do you know she wasn't lying? (none / 0) (#142)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:44:36 PM EST
    Media at it again (5.00 / 0) (#169)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:35:51 PM EST
    Just heard an ABC news report on Young Turks that says the new passport was "acquired two weeks after the shooting". Can they really not even be bothered to read the motion?

    Perhaps that is when the lawyer (none / 0) (#174)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:42:14 PM EST
    "acquired" it from his client?

    Parent
    I suspect they didn't read carefully. (5.00 / 0) (#181)
    by Karl Baden on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:17:43 PM EST
    Zimmerman reported his passport lost on 3/8/2004 (and received the new one on 3/26/2004). That is about two weeks from the day of the shooting, except it is 8 years off.

    Parent
    I don't think so - he didn't even have this (none / 0) (#177)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:54:39 PM EST
    lawyer 2 weeks after the shooting, which would have been the 2nd week in March.

    Listened to it again...unidentified reporter says  'prosecutors accuse Zimmerman of deceiving the court about his finances, and about a 2nd passport, which he apparently acquired 2 weeks after the shooting'

    Parent

    Yeah, my brain hiccuped (none / 0) (#179)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:56:48 PM EST
    I was thinking trial, not shooting. So, no idea  where ABC developed this story :)

    Parent
    Does (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:42:31 PM EST
    this surprise you? It shouldn't.

    Parent
    My y'all are feisty (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:58:29 PM EST
    when Jeralyn is gone. 1. People shorten amounts of money to "10" or "15," and they rarely say "dollars" unless they have to differentiate dollars from some other thing, such as cents. This can be frustrating for reporters and editors (of which I was one) because you have to put [$10,000] in brackets like this, or differentiate it in some other way.

    1. I'm not sure how anyone could hear that conversation and think that GZ and SZ were referring to 10 dollars or 8 dollars and 26 cents when they discussed moving money into accounts. (I don't remember the exact number mentioned).

    2. In the phone calls, they note the calls are being recorded. So, either they are the dumbest conspirators around or they somehow thought what they were doing was legit. At least, that's my opinion.


    How could they possibly think ... (5.00 / 0) (#203)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:20:51 PM EST
    ... that what they were doing was legitimate, when she testified just a few days later they had no major assets for bond and no financial means to pay for legal expenses?

    Parent
    Really? I think it's been pretty tame and (none / 0) (#197)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:03:38 PM EST
    polite.    

    Parent
    Will you admit it is amusing? (none / 0) (#199)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:09:17 PM EST
    Yes, very!! (none / 0) (#200)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:10:22 PM EST
    rickroberts (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by jharp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:25:09 PM EST
    His decision to carry a gun ... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by rickroberts on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:43:49 PM EST
    was to protect himself, his neighbors, and their property from the thieving little punks who had had their way for far too long. We should all do the same.

    Yeah right. And it turned out so well for Trayvon, Zimmerman, their families, and us taxpayers.

    We should all do the same.

    God help us.

    Re: Zimmerman's innocence (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by unitron on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 04:58:31 AM EST
    I'm beginning to think that the one thing of which George Zimmerman is totally innocent is being smart.

    However, while he was waiting for the bail hearing he might not have had internet access to check the latest total in the PayPal account, the so-called "code" could be nothing more than the prosecutor's fevered imagination, and I haven't seen anything to discredit the account that he acquired the gun in response to dog trouble upon being informed that pepper spray wouldn't work quickly enough to disable an attacking dog.

    Just as with the 46 calls from 2004 being mis-reported as being from the previous year, the passport replacement obtained this year story indicates a deplorable tendency to publish first and verify later, if ever.


    read the motion (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by lawstudent on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 07:20:15 AM EST
    Speaking of "a deplorable tendency to publish first and verify later," people really shouldn't be commenting on this thread until they've read the motion.  Whether you think the prosecutor's characterization of GZ's actions are overstatement is one thing, but it's pretty difficult to read the motion and not find something terribly wrong with GZ's representations to the court about his passport and the paypal account.  

    It's not about what he knew or didn't know because he didn't have internet access, or that he "forgot" he had a second passport.  His phone conversations were recorded, and he knew and remembered all of these facts.  He then concealed them from the court.  Doesn't mean he didn't act in self-defense, but clearly, misrepresentations were made to the court and that is a problem for his credibility moving forward.

    Gun was already cocked (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by willisnewton on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:16:03 AM EST
    That's a lot of conjecture on your part, fredquick.  

    GZ's weapon was fully loaded and double action.  Didn't require cocking most likely unless what you claim to hear is him putting a seventh round into the chamber and reloading the clip, while walking, carrying a cell phone, black flashlight and being in a probably dark space where he was unsure if he was alone or not.  

    Lots of other people think these sounds are GZ's banging on his black flashlight later found by the body.  The particular brand has customer complaints about the switch being faulty.  I'm unsure but it does seem to make sense that since his keychain flashlight was found lit he may have switched to using this smaller flashlight for that reason.  

    I happen to think he will get a trial on the facts alone and that will be sufficient to administer whatever justice a judge and jury decide is right.  

    Fred - there's an open thread (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by Anne on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:32:44 AM EST
    where you can discuss Zimmerman - this one is effectively closed.

    But as long as I'm here, the new passport was obtained two weeks after it was reported lost/stolen in 2004, not two weeks after the shooting; it was a 10-year passport with a 2014 expiration.

    The credibility issues don't go away - he's making them worse as time goes by - but you should read the motion itself and not rely on media reports for your facts.

    @ANNE i stand corrected and apologise (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:56:25 AM EST


    @fredquick21 (5.00 / 1) (#226)
    by unitron on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 10:21:37 AM EST
    Speaking of apologies, go read the initial police report to get the brand and model of Zimmerman's gun, and then go read up on it and learn what "hammer block safety" means, and how most owners of that particular weapon carry it ready to draw and fire with one hand and just a pull on the trigger,  after which I believe you will find that you owe an apology to willis for an entirely uncalled for level of snark to someone who did not deal with you in that fashion.

    Perhaps one other (2.00 / 0) (#208)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 09:05:54 PM EST
    significant statement was by O'Mara on CNN's Anderson Cooper. When asked about the shot to GZ's credibility he responded that all parties would need to establish their creditably at trial including Trayvon Martin.

    @WILLIS NEWTON Gun cocked and loaded.. (1.00 / 1) (#220)
    by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:33:27 AM EST
    since you obviously were there walking beside Mr Zim. just curious are you a witness in this case if not maybe you should call Mr.O'Mara as he may need your eyewitness testimony but remember you are UNDER OATH....

    Great link (none / 0) (#1)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 02:39:52 PM EST
    Thanks Jeralyn.  

    How does this affect, if at all... (none / 0) (#3)
    by magster on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 02:48:44 PM EST
    ... GZ's option of taking the stand in his own defense now that he might be impeached with a finding that he lied in these proceedings? Is is 404b evidence not relevant to the issues from the night of the incident, or is it all considered as part of the whole shebang and admissible?

    yet to be determined (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:00:56 PM EST
    but it sure cannot help his credibility with Judge Lester, who would hear any SYG/Dennis hearing.

    Parent
    Having GZ testify, even though it seemed... (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by magster on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:11:01 PM EST
    ... brilliant at the time and caught the prosecution flat-footed in the bond hearing, may not have been so great an idea after all?

    Parent
    If he testifies in his own defense at trial (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:37:03 PM EST
    then his credibility is fair game, and these issues will be admissible on cross-examination by the prosecutor. No question in my mind about that.

    Parent
    Here is the Motion to Revoke (none / 0) (#23)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:39:09 PM EST
    This makes things a lot worse, (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:47:16 PM EST
    in my opinion.

    O'Mara must be feeling more than a little sick right about now.

    Parent

    Will Mr. O'Mara petition the court (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:58:49 PM EST
    to be relieved as counsel for Mr. Zimmerman?  Lawyer's reputation in the community is at stake.  Plus his client is not cooperating with him.  

    Parent
    No. It's not nearly that bad. (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:39:46 PM EST
    Not really that unusual for something like this to develop in a criminal case.  I'm sure O'Mara will rally and persevere.

    Parent
    Perjury charges? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Clara Bow Again on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:52:29 PM EST
    Will there be any perjury charges filed against either of them?

    Parent
    Where is the code? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:08:45 PM EST
    I did not see any secret code explained by the prosecution.

    Parent
    Read it again. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:10:41 PM EST
     

    Parent
    They don't explain it (none / 0) (#65)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:14:13 PM EST
    Since this is a motion, and not evidence, the word "code" is the prosecution's spin on what they were saying.

    Parent
    "44 dollars and 46 cents" (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by expy on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:00:51 PM EST
    There's a line in the motion quoting Zimmerman as making that statement, spelled out. (at page 5 of the motion).  

    I agree that it is sloppy transcription after that, using $ signs instead of indicating when and where Zimmerman and his wife actually said the words "dollars" or "cents."   But I would assume that the the actual recordings as well as actual bank account records are now available to the defense counsel and the court - and if there was a discrepancy between transcription and words spoken, it is something that would have been raised.

    I actually think the passport issue is far more damning than the money -- but taken together, the bottom line is that Z. & his wife made deliberate misrepresentations in court relevant to his bail hearing, on matters directly relevant to the setting of bond and conditions for release.  

    Parent

    The bottom line (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:04:19 PM EST
    I actually think the passport issue is far more damning than the money -- but taken together, the bottom line is that Z. & his wife made deliberate misrepresentations in court relevant to his bail hearing, on matters directly relevant to the setting of bond and conditions for release.

    Well said.

    Parent

    Prosecutor calling defendant a liar before trial? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    Is that ethical?

    Making a statement to the press using the word "misleading" is one thing but using the phrase "blatant lie" goes too far and jeopardizes the defendants right to a fair trial by impartial jury.

    "It was misleading and I don't know what other words to use except it was a blatant lie," said de la Rionda.

    Isn't that a factual statement? (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:59:57 PM EST
    Zimmerman did not lie. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Oats on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:28:42 PM EST
    At most you can call his wife a liar, but Zimmerman himself never made a single comment on his finances or his family's finances.

    Parent
    Not directly, but he let his lawyer make (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:16:20 PM EST
    a motion claiming he was indigent.

    Parent
    Which GZ Had to Sign, No ? (none / 0) (#137)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:37:50 PM EST
    Probably not, unless his declaration (none / 0) (#144)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:45:08 PM EST
    was attached to the motion.  He may have had to fill out a bail application form listing his assets, employment, etc. and sign that under penalty of perjury.  

    Parent
    When I started out practicing criminal law (none / 0) (#190)
    by Peter G on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:45:37 PM EST
    over 30 years ago, a prosecutor's use of the terms "lie" and "liar" in reference to the defendant was typically considered unethical name-calling.  More recently, that is, in the last decade or so, I see appellate courts routinely allowing it, where there is a reasonable basis in the evidence for the accusation.  I am not a Florida lawyer, however, and don't know the case law there.

    Parent
    The PayPal thing isn't the only problem. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 03:59:21 PM EST
    He has a passport problem, too.  Only turned in one passport when he presumably had two in his possession.

    Hmmmm. Surprised he hasn't (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:00:44 PM EST
    left the country already. Will he surrender w/i 48 hrs.?

    Parent
    How do we know he hasn't? (5.00 / 0) (#151)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:49:30 PM EST
    GPS, never mind (5.00 / 0) (#152)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:50:09 PM EST
    Stay tuned. Cuba? (none / 0) (#153)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:50:32 PM EST
    Not going to get far (none / 0) (#161)
    by Lora on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:57:20 PM EST
    with a passport that has the name George Zimmerman on it ;-)

    Parent
    Passport (none / 0) (#62)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:12:37 PM EST
    IMO, that's not a huge issue since it looks like he applied for it a couple of years (exp 2014) after he thought lost the first one (exp. 2012) which was well before all of this stuff.

    The problem is that in the Motion, there's a conversation with his wife about holding onto a passport for him (not sure which one) and when he went to court he hung O'Mara out to dry by letting him turn in his passport and claim that it was the only one.  He's lucky that the judge didn't smack him on that one as well.  

    Parent

    He turned in the passport that he had reported as (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:22:38 PM EST
    stolen!  And that one expired in May 2012, shortly after he turned it in.  The other passport, the replacement one which had an expiration date of 2014, was in the safe at his house, and he kept that passport.  I see a huge problem with this.  He could have skipped the country with that passport.  And he had knowledge of both passports based on the recorded conversation with his wife.    

    Parent
    The motion doesn't say that (none / 0) (#75)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:25:00 PM EST
    It says he filed with the State Department that his passport had been "lost or stolen".

    Parent
    Oh, please. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:27:08 PM EST
    Lost or stolen, it's his subsequent actions that are in question.

    Parent
    True, but (2.00 / 0) (#79)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:28:35 PM EST
    I was correcting you

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#82)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:33:38 PM EST
    I didn't know which passport they were referring to in the conversation.  Again, he's very lucky the judge didn't drop the hammer on him for that as well.

    Parent
    lost or stolen? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Clara Bow Again on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:32:17 PM EST
    George Zimmerman had two passports because he lost or thought someone stole his passport in 2004 & he applied for a new one.

    However, he must have then "found" the "lost/stolen" passport at some point & therefore, he had two current passports.

    And, when he goes to jail he just by chance turns in the "lost/stolen/expiring" passport & keeps the current one in a safe deposit box.

    This guy is just full of surprises.

    Parent

    As previously stated (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by Dilbert By Day on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:15:11 PM EST
    the problem with the passport is that the copy surrendered to the court at bail setting was the outdated issue. Was the active passport initially held back in a safety deposit box? Which is which?

    Excerpted from the State's Motion to Revoke: Jailhouse phone conversation.

    Bolding mine.

    "Defendant: Do you know what? I think my passport is in that bag.

    Shelly Zimmerman: I have one for you in safety deposit box.

    Defendant: Ok, you hold on to that."

    Can the state raise the passport issue at a subsequent bond hearing?

    *Retired concrete contractor talking law - Buyer Beware.  

    Parent

    The active one was the one held back (5.00 / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:23:46 PM EST
    According to the motion, the one that had been replaced was the one they turned in.

    Parent
    Maybe it had a better picture? (5.00 / 0) (#121)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:26:46 PM EST
    Thinking about it, it is amazing how much (none / 0) (#126)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:32:12 PM EST
    the court takes on faith. I would think if I were the judge I would somehow pull a search beforehand and find out how many passports had been issued to the guy myself. Maybe our 'permanent records' are not yet as accessable as I feared!

    Parent
    That's what I was thinking about (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:40:42 PM EST
    the PP account. You would think they would have had to have statements submitted verifying the various account balances prior to/or at a bail hearing.

    And really, how many people forget how many passports they have?

    Parent

    2 passports (none / 0) (#139)
    by Clara Bow Again on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:41:26 PM EST
    When you think about it - How many people tend to have two "current" passports because one was lost/stolen & then found?

    Parent
    I have to think the one that was reported (none / 0) (#146)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:46:14 PM EST
    lost had its number deactivated by the state department and would have been rejected when scanned for entry someplace. Which would really wreck your vacation.  But it strains credibility to think you would forget you even had it - and he did not forget - he knew it was in "that bag".

    Parent
    Plus One Would Have to Live in Cave (none / 0) (#141)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:42:48 PM EST
    ... to not know who GZ is and what he looks like.

    TSA is rummaging through diapers, but the idiots at the passport office didn't notice an infamous defendant was getting another passport.

    What up with that ?

    Parent

    He had it prior to this (none / 0) (#148)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:46:36 PM EST
    if I'm following along correctly . . .

    Parent
    He got the "replacement" passport (none / 0) (#149)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:46:58 PM EST
    in 2004, I believe, before he was "infamous."

    Parent
    He got the second one in 2004 (none / 0) (#150)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:47:04 PM EST
    Not quite infamous yet.

    Parent
    Thanks ruffian (none / 0) (#163)
    by Dilbert By Day on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:06:49 PM EST
    I understand from reading the motion that the outdated passport was surrendered at the bond hearing on April 20. What I'm not clear about is which "one" was in the safety deposit box on April 17, when the following conversation was recorded at the Seminole County Jail.

    "Defendant: Do you know what? I think my passport is in that bag.

    Shelly Zimmerman: I have one for you in safety deposit box.

    Defendant: Ok, you hold on to that."

    I'm also wondering if the state can raise the passport issue at the next bond hearing in an argument for denial, or a substantial increase.

    Thanks again.  


    Parent

    I see what you mean. I guess he (none / 0) (#172)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:39:41 PM EST
    could have been telling her to hold onto the one that he wanted to surrender and not been firm in his belief he had one in the bag and one in the box.

    Parent
    What a terrible decision... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Addison on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:45:22 PM EST
    ...what was going through his mind? As transcribed in the court document his conversation about the passports shows so much knowledge and planning! And then to come to court and allow the number of passports he held to be misrepresented? Even if you don't think Zimmerman is plotting to flee the country (I don't) that is some suspicious behavior, ensuring that you retain your unexpired passport in a safety deposit box and allowing people to believe you don't have it. I sort of don't think any of this will add up to anything TOO terrible (a higher bond) but what poor decision-making on his part.

    Parent
    Unfortunately for him, I think it (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:36:44 PM EST
    lends some credence to the perception that Zimmerman was also taking matters into his own hands the night he shot Trayvon.  At the least, it opens the door to that argument.

    I'm frankly pretty stunned at the hubris of someone who had to have known his calls from jail were being recorded.

    Parent

    Exactly (none / 0) (#157)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:52:49 PM EST
    The brazeness of it is telling.

    Parent
    Like ducks on a June bug (none / 0) (#194)
    by Rojas on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:53:49 PM EST
    Have you hugged a prosecutor today?

    Parent
    Ha. (none / 0) (#198)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:04:37 PM EST
    Too many "oopsies" (none / 0) (#97)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:52:43 PM EST
    The Passport issue is one thing but when you add in the money stuff and recorded statements and statements in court...well...

    Parent
    Yes, it suggests a pattern of deceit (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Towanda on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:45:02 PM EST
    that is persuasive to the court.  I understand the apologists saying that he could have forgotten one, he could have forgotten the other, he might not have understood his wife, yadda yadda -- and the court might be understanding about one "oops."

    But a pattern of deceit is deliberate.

    Parent

    To be clear... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Addison on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:35:38 PM EST
    I sort of don't think any of this will add up to anything TOO terrible (a higher bond) but what poor decision-making on his part.

    I mean to say that I think he may get a much higher bond. But not sure about charges stemming from anyone's misrepresentations, or actual effect on the Murder 2 case (even if it's brought up at some point).

    Parent

    Me thinks they're both in a heap of trouble. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Angel on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:06:16 PM EST


    What about the prosecution's misleading? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:21:16 PM EST
    Will this judge hold Dale Gilbreath, Bernie de La Rionda and Angela Corey accountable for their lie about Witness #2 at that very same bail hearing?

    Will this judge hold Dale Gilbreath, Bernie de La Rionda and Angela Corey accountable for their lie about not having access to Zimmerman's medical records at that very same bail hearing?

    Is Zimmerman able to play the plausible deniability game like de La Rionda, who was under oath when he denied seeing the medical records and claiming they had a witness who saw two shadows even though the witness had already changed her testimony to one shadow by the time of the hearing?

    Keep swinging (3.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:40:30 PM EST
    Maybe somebody will buy it ...

    Parent
    They are.... (none / 0) (#100)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:57:22 PM EST
    ...EXTREMELY good questions, and very germane (although I do not believe de la Rionda was under oath).

    Parent
    No, they are not (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:02:24 PM EST
    They are certainly not germane.  None of the prosecutors were claiming indigent (falsely it loks like) while applying for bail.

    Parent
    Good Point (none / 0) (#78)
    by IgnatiusJDonnely on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 04:27:44 PM EST
    About Corey et al.

    Do ya think the money will hurt Zimmie's fund raising though?

    Parent

    Plausible deniability has to be plausible (none / 0) (#102)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:01:04 PM EST
    Zimmerman's denials fail that test.

    Parent
    You know (none / 0) (#106)
    by bmaz on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:02:51 PM EST
    NOTHING of the sort as Zimmerman has not made any explanations for this yet. get a grip.

    Parent
    OK, I prepare to be dazzled (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:05:45 PM EST
    regarding the passport. But I always found it implausible that he did not know how much money was in the account.

    Parent
    Waiting to be dazzled as well (none / 0) (#115)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:18:34 PM EST
    The record is the record.  The wife tesified that she wasn't aware of how much money was in the account but there are conversations between her and GZ which seem to clearly show that's not true.

    Parent
    She also implies that she does not (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 05:27:30 PM EST
    know when the web site was set up because she is not with her husband in hiding. Then she says she talks to him every day.

    I wonder if testifying by phone makes it all seem a little less real.

    Parent

    Depose 50 witnesses? WOW! (none / 0) (#168)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:32:27 PM EST
    No wonder the defense team keeps growing.

    O'Mara said he expects to call on 50 witnesses who need to be deposed before he decides whether to file a "stand your ground" motion which would ask for a hearing before a judge without a jury.

    Wow. Mr. Zimmerman may be (5.00 / 0) (#173)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 06:40:56 PM EST
    in custody pending trial for a very long time.  

    Parent
    Uhoh (none / 0) (#188)
    by Jack203 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 07:43:32 PM EST
    I've stuck up for George from day one, but this takes poor judgement.to a whole new level.

    The most telling part is when DLR even says she is "confident that OMara knew nothing about this". Of course she is!. It was pure stupidity by GZ and his wife, and OMara would never in a million years advise GZ and them to try and pull this stunt.

    The ONLY defense I can think of...if I'm right...is that the website only was setup 48 hours before and everything happened so fast, they just (very stupidly) thought it would be easier to stick to their original plan at the bond hearing and just play dumb if they are pressed about their new website....Because playing dumb almost never gets you caught.

    Except this time it did....big time.

    No more suspense. The Martin family (none / 0) (#201)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:10:55 PM EST
    lawyer did find it necessary to speak publicly re today's bail revocation:  

    Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for the Martin family, said, "Judge Lester's decision is the most important ruling in this case so far because it focuses everyone's attention back on the credibility of George Zimmerman, which is the crux of the matter in this case." Mr. Martin, 17, who was unarmed, was killed on the night of Feb. 26 after an encounter with Mr. Zimmerman that turned violent.  [ NYT.]


    Perhaps the most pertinent revelation (none / 0) (#205)
    by lousy1 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 08:23:08 PM EST
    came during the media's contention that  of the viability of a gag order when one side felt that Zimmerman's statements were classified by the Prosecution as a confession but by the defense as exculpatory.

    O'mara contended that the defense had not characterized Zimmerman's statement as of yet.

    The Judge Lester interjected -I have read these statements. The defense will argue these statements as being exculpatory.

    Rojas! (none / 0) (#209)
    by ks on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 10:43:33 PM EST
    Good jab! LOL! No I haven't hugged a prosecut or today or any other day but do you have one in mind for me to hug? Thanks!

    If Jeralyn drove up to Aspen (none / 0) (#210)
    by fishcamp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:32:59 PM EST
    this afternoon, registered for the NORML convention, schmoozed with her pals at the venue, had dinner in town, and then drove out to Owl Farm to stay with Anita Thompson she should be coming online very soon to dazzle us with some PP and passport info we could never dream up.  I hope she does because it ain't looking good for Geo right now.

    But the first thing she (none / 0) (#211)
    by fishcamp on Fri Jun 01, 2012 at 11:37:21 PM EST
    will do is shut down this thread since we are way over the 200 comment limit.  When the cats away the mice will play.

    What are the options? (none / 0) (#212)
    by CherokeeNative on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:23:24 AM EST
    Judge Lester could up the amount of the bail or he could revoke bail entirely, right?  If so, it would stand to reason that he would not raise the bail to such an amount that it would cause GZ to lose his defense funds in order to be free and then be indigent - especially since this would most likely p.o. the taxpayers. Depending on how angry he is over being lied to, he may make GZ stay in jail pending trial.  Also, I found it interesting that the Judge mentioned that he was surprised the state had not initiated something (perjury charges) against GZ's wife and at the PC DLR said it wasn't up to him to bring such charges.  So who is it up to?  Prosecutor Corey? The Judge?

    Wolfinger? (none / 0) (#213)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:54:08 AM EST
    Also, I found it interesting that the Judge mentioned that he was surprised the state had not initiated something (perjury charges) against GZ's wife and at the PC DLR said it wasn't up to him to bring such charges.  So who is it up to?



    IT'S amazing to Me (none / 0) (#216)
    by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 08:59:47 AM EST
    How many of you ZIM supporters will continue to follow and make excuses until the cold steel bars slam in his face. I don't understand how anyone who watched this 2nd bond hearing or read the transcript can STILL believe this was an innocence mistake. I watched this live on tru.tv and the judge was furious. The judge said he (ZIM) upon return would have to "TAKE THE STAND" to explain this. The phone conversation (some of them) were the day B4 his 1st bond hearing and the one abt transfering money to the wife's credit union was made"WHILE SHE WAS AT THE CREDIT UNION". She and ZIM lied under oath. Also the judge they lied to is the judge who will decide if SYG can be used to give ZIM immunity and this is the judge who will sentence him. Remember the police on scene didn't believe ZIM's version of events of that night and wanted to charge him with "HOMICIDE". ZIM has since given 4 more accounts of that night according to prosecutors and they have inconsistencies and contradictions to the 911 tape and the evidence collected and witness testimony. Note listening to the 911 tape after "DS: "What is your name?... ZIM : "George"... "He ran.. DS: OK.. What is your last name?...*CLICK,CLICK (gun being cocked) .. ZIM : Zimmerman.... *PLEASE RELISTEN IF YOU HAVEN'T HEARD THIS...

    Passports are not the issue but... (none / 0) (#218)
    by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:26:07 AM EST
    ZIM got one in 2004 it was set to expire in May 2012 he reported it lost or stolen then applied for a new one " TWO WEEKS AFTER THE KILLING OF TM". The one he initially turned in was the 2004 passport set to expire in May 2012. The new one was in his p.o.box as heard on the tape or read on the phone conversation transcript.... The money and blatant lying are the real issue because they go toward ZIM's credibility which is all this case is hinged on since only he survived and his testimony and credibility will decide his ability to use SYG for immunity which seeing that the judge who he lied to is also the person who will decide this... NOT GOOD ZIM

    Discovery (none / 0) (#221)
    by labrat on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:35:19 AM EST
    The original purpose of this hearing was the public release of discovery. Does anyone know what the results of that portion of the hearing was?

    @ANNE you are wrong.. (none / 0) (#222)
    by fredquick21 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:39:25 AM EST


    @fred....no she isn't. Read the motion. (none / 0) (#223)
    by Angel on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 09:40:43 AM EST


    From the section headed (none / 0) (#225)
    by Anne on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 10:01:54 AM EST
    "Defendant's Passport," Items 8 and 9:

    8. On 3/8/2004, the Defendant filed a claim with the Department of State Passport Office alleging that his United States passport was lost or stolen and applied for another United States passport.  See attached Form DS64 Statement Regarding a Lost or Stolen Passport.

    9. On 3/26/2004, Defendant obtained another United States passport #017355779.  This passport is currently valid until 2014.  See attached United States passport application.

    He reported it stolen on 3/8/04 and applied that same day for the new passport, and received it a little over two weeks later, in 2004.

    The fastest way to not be taken seriously here is to keep misstating the facts.

    Regarding second passport (none / 0) (#227)
    by Darby on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 10:29:02 AM EST
    Apparently this isn't as damming as what is portrayed here. At least according to ABC news
    "But after his bond he did turn the second passport into his attorney who quickly notified the court. The judge agreed with his attorney, that the second passport, which was never used, was not being hid maliciously. "

    The money issues looks bad for him, but can't quite figure how they were intentionally being deceitful when in the recording thet admit to knowing they are being recorded. Will wait to hear what they have to say in their own defense.

    Agreed it looks bad for Z, but being an idiot and a liar doesn't mean that someone is guilty of murder 2. From the evidence yet, I don't see where he is guilty of murder2. Even manslaughter given the eyewitness testimony etc.

    That said, it doesn't mean I credit Zimmerman for being for being an honorable or brilliant person, or someone I would chose to befriend.

    Release of Discovery (none / 0) (#228)
    by CherokeeNative on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 11:54:12 AM EST
    The original purpose of this hearing was the public release of discovery. Does anyone know what the results of that portion of the hearing was?

    The motion filed by ASA de la Rionda asked Judge Lester to suppress a wealth of evidence subject to public disclosure.

    It encompasses the names, addresses and phone numbers of 22 witnesses, crime scene photos and autopsy photos and any others showing the victim's body, the 911 call that captured the shooting (already widely available on the Internet), Mr. Zimmerman's statements to police, and cell phone records.

    MOM claims that disclosure will "adversely affect the proper administration of justice in this case, and may make it impossible to find an appropriate jury unaffected by this information."

    Attorneys for the news media argued that this "far exceeds what the law permits to be treated as a confession."

    The Court indicated that he would review the records but that it would take about 4 weeks to do so.  He is expected to give his ruling after a 30-day review period. No new evidence will be released to the media until that ruling.

    Although Lester told the court he agreed with arguments from the defense and prosecution to keep information sealed, he said "the law is against us."

    Lester refused to seal the 911 call, saying that it was a "non-issue" since the tape had already been leaked, but he agreed to review the arguments over the rest of the evidence.

    http://www.nbc12.com/story/18677692/prosecutors-want-zimmermans-bond-revoked-evidence-remains-unseal ed

    I am of the opinion that none of the requested exclusions would qualify as exemptions. While confessions are exempt, GZ has not confessed to any guilt. What the prosecution is seeking to exclude GZ's statements because they are "contradictory and inconsistent with the physical elements and statements of witnesses; or statements that could be used against him."

    thank you (none / 0) (#229)
    by labrat on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:11:49 PM EST


    Good Morning... (none / 0) (#230)
    by DebFrmHell on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:27:51 PM EST
    What the prosecution is seeking to exclude GZ's statements because they are "contradictory and inconsistent with the physical elements and statements of witnesses; or statements that could be used against him."

    I am confused.  The Prosecution or the Defense?

    Prosecution (none / 0) (#231)
    by CherokeeNative on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:31:57 PM EST
    G'morning Deb.  The prosecution is seeking to exclude GZ's statements claiming that they are "confessions" because they are contradictory and inconsistent with the physical elements and statements of witnesses.  But they aren't really "I am guilty" statements in other words. JMHO.

    re: release of gz's statements to police (none / 0) (#232)
    by willisnewton on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:37:45 PM EST
    IANAL but it seems to me that part of the strategy by the prosecution is to delay the release of GZ's statements to Sanford PD so that the defense does not see them until the last possible moment and thus have time to prepare a way to deal with whatever is in them vis a vis possible inconsistencies, etc.

    By claiming to want to keep them from the media, they are able to stall turning this material over to the defense.  Eventually they will have to turn over all the materials to the defense but as far as I can tell the only thing the defense has is what the public has already seen.  

    I may be totally wrong however as IANAL.  

    As for the defense, I'm less sure of what their underlying motives are.

    Cell phone records may include intemperate remarks by the defendant in the form of text messages.  The prosecution brought up something about a text making reference to  "a reverend" at the first bond  hearing but an objection from the defense was sustained.

    I'm sure others have thought this through more than I however.

    Link (none / 0) (#233)
    by CherokeeNative on Sat Jun 02, 2012 at 12:40:02 PM EST
    I should have given a link.  http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/zimmerman_state_motion.pdf

    Which states, in part:

    "...Defendant has provided law enforcement with numerous statements, some of which are contradictory, and are inconsistent with the physical evidence and statements of witnesses.  Defendants statements are admissible and in conjunction with other statements and evidence help to establish Defendant's guilt in this case."