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Thursday Morning Open Thread

I mentioned this speech from FDR in my appearance with David Waldman on Daily Kos Radio yesterday, and Ed Kilgore dug up the You Tube:

Notice the similarities between Bill Clinton's lines and style in the You Tube below and FDR's speech. Our 2 best pols of the last century might be worth studying for the Obama/Biden reelection campaign.

I've often said Obama is a great politician, but maybe not so great in a slugfest filled with lying liars. Worth looking at a couple of the great ones in such a situation.

Open Thread.

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    No comparison between Obama and others. (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Sweet Sue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:23:06 AM EST
    I'd take Bill and Hillary before, during and after the debate.

    Unless were talking (none / 0) (#43)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:26:09 AM EST
    actually accomplishing anything in the Oval Office, then I'd recommend Obama.

    Parent
    Of course YOU would (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:26:27 PM EST
    Actually (none / 0) (#140)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:54:08 PM EST
    Most other people would did you look at your link? Obama has a higher approval than disapproval rating.

    Parent
    Looked at it (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:36:40 PM EST
    Obama's at 49.8% (+2.2).  Clinton left office with the highest approval rating of any POTUS (66%).

    But go ahead and tell us how the Republican healthcare plan of '94 was an "accomplishment" worth wasting the large majorities he had his first two years, making backroom deals with big Pharma, tossing his promised public option under the bus, and all the other broken promises ...

    Parent

    Check again (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:59:50 PM EST
    after Obama has been president for eight years and then you can compare eight years of the presidency.

    Just comparing their first four years, Clinton ranged from 38-60 and Obama has ranged from 38-69. Definitely comparable on that stat.

    Parent

    No need to "check again" Coral (none / 0) (#209)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 06:10:49 PM EST
    Obama came in with near historic high approval ratings - Clinton not-so-much.  Guess that's why you prefer looking at averages.  OTOH - the thesis was that Obama accomplished much more than Clinton, yet his numbers are no higher.

    Go figure.  

    BTW - Care to place a bet on who's end-of-term numbers will be higher?  You pick the amount and the escrow account.  I'll even spot you 5 points, to make it interesting.

    Parent

    Hey (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:26:46 AM EST
    There is a run on Big Bird costumes for Halloween.  Wish I could have foreseen that job creating investment opportunity :)

    SCOTUS Gifts U.S. TeleCriminals Immunity (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:27:10 AM EST
    US supreme court finalizes gift of immunity to the telecom giants

    In 2008, the industry obtained an extraordinary act of Congress that gave them the gift of retroactive immunity from all criminal and civil liability for their participation in the illegal eavesdropping programs aimed at Americans on US soil. The immunity was enacted by an overwhelming bipartisan vote, with the support of leading Democrats including Barack Obama, who had promised - when seeking his party's nomination - to filibuster any bill that contained retroactive telecom immunity.

    Doubtless all those pro-choice Justices voted to hear the case, eh?  Yeah, sure, just like Eavesdropper-in-Chief Obama kept his promise.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:44:50 AM EST
    BTD I am going to have to disagree about Obama being a good politician. He is an awful politician and you're pretty much saying it when in a different way when you say he can't handle a slugfest. If you can't handle a slugfest then you are a poor politician and frankly dealing with today's GOP and the garbage that they sling, you've got NO business at all being in politics. One of Obama's main problem is not that Romney lies but that Obama has never had a "REAL GOP opponent. A lot of what Romney has been doing is pretty much standard fare for the GOP. This is one thing that maddeningly irritating about Obama and it was that he bought into the crap that the GOP was awful in the 90's because of Bill Clinton and he thinking that it would be different for him because of who he was or whatever. Now he's getting the same treatment and he has that deer in the headlights look to him.

    Do you think he bought into the Clintons (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:53:40 AM EST
    being bad?  He sure needs them an awful lot now.  I think he is still enchanted with Lincoln, and somehow some journalist made a connection to his Presidency and Lincoln's the other night and I don't know how you do that without some kind of encouragement to see THAT.  None of us were alive during Lincoln's presidency :)  He wanted to have a Lincoln-like presidency whether it is possible or not.  Issa's coming after him over Libya, he has to go through Hillary though.  I think we have a rock solid Clinton/Obama alliance.

    Parent
    The Republicans voted (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:39:46 AM EST
    to cut funding for Embassy security.

    Parent
    Yes, and they outed our separate CIA (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:59:14 AM EST
    compound in Benghazi yesterday.  Can't help but wonder if that wasn't deliberate, making certain that the groups behind the attack know that the CIA is there.

    I was confused by a few reports that said that two compounds in Benghazi were "involved", the Republicans cleared that confusion up for me.

    Now that I know more about the weapons in Libya that were free to fall into extremists hands I'm not sure we had a choice as to whether or not we would be involved in Libya.  And still tens of thousands of surface to air missiles are missing while the Republicans are tipping off those who have them that the CIA is active in Libya.  It is phucking horrible what they have done if you ask me.

    Parent

    Chaffetz, the Romney (none / 0) (#60)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:00:20 PM EST
    cheerleader from Utah, is a nitwit nincompoop.

    Parent
    He's dangerous (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:04:52 PM EST
    I caught (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:28:42 PM EST
     a little bit of the Republicans skewering the Obama team (on C-Span.) They were "investigating" the Libyan tragedy. The lifeless, passive masochism at the hands of the Neanderthals (Dan Burton!!!?) made me want to join the flaming monks.

    How can the entire Obama Administration be so inept politically?        


    Parent

    I think they have been terrified about their (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:48:29 PM EST
    Choice to be involved in Libya being used against them politically.  They seem to be overly terrified about potential political attacks.  His base has never been happy with him over his involvement.  The Indies have been up in the air about it.  Even my spouse wasn't happy about it.  I don't know why you can't say that we have to know who has certain weapons, I guess it's too controversial to openly admit such things.  Plus, the State Department knows certain secrets that they must sit on, so they just sit there.

    The SEALs who were killed have been running around Libya destroyiing weapons caches when they found them.  That was their mission and I guess we can't be overt in our intentions.  I dunno......

    Parent

    Now I understand what the big deal was (none / 0) (#75)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:34:03 PM EST
    about images that could be pulled up via google.

    Thanks, missed that during the hearings, don't think it was discussed specifically.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:50:05 PM EST
    You are creating a controversy in your mind to excuse the one that is in plain sight.

    This administration screwed up royally.


    Parent

    How? (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:55:56 PM EST
    Was it when the Republicans voted down giving them the money to provide the security they needed in Libya?  You are delusional.

    Yes Obama Administration, secure real weapons of mass destruction in Libya with bailing twine and spit.  What is great about America though?  The truly brave and genuinely serving show up for the job because it has to be done.  Shame on Republicans in Congress....SHAME SHAME SHAME!  They got our Ambassador killed and three others, and now they have jeopardized the CIA finding out who has some very dangerous weapons.

    Parent

    So your agurment (none / 0) (#96)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:04:01 PM EST
    is that since overall department funding was cut that is why the State Department denied additional requests for security?

    Nothing to do with the political beliefs of this administration and it's overall foreign policy?

    If State had wanted to increase security they would have.   Congress is responsible for the overall budget.  Not how that budget is spent.

    Bottom line is this administration and State didn't see this attack coming.   It's a screw up.

    Trying to find a convoluted reason to blame republicans for something just shows you agree.

    Parent

    They had a very long list of costly (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:18:17 PM EST
    Things that were done to improve security.  But if Republican aren't going to give us the money to build a real consulate, it was already said by some military suit that they couldn't have repelled that attack with just beefed up security and another foot added to the wall.

    If the Obama administration had gone rogue and built what they wanted in Libya without Congressional approval of any kind, that wouldn't have triggered a Darrel Issa witch hunt abuse of powers investigation....not ever.

    And still thousands and thousands of surface to air missiles out there and the CIA exposed.  

    There is not one thing being done by Republicans over any of this that is making the world safer and saner for anyone but please....continue.

    Parent

    How did they "screw up royally"? (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:01:44 PM EST
    Be specific.

    This should be good.

    Parent

    BTW - include some links ... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    ... to actual news sources.  Breitbart, Human Events and Fox News are good for a chuckle, ...

    ... but that's about it.

    Parent

    This is the lamest of Obamabot excuses (none / 0) (#80)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:42:23 PM EST
    There was plenty of money to go around.

    Apprently there was enough money to buy Chevy Volts even.

    Lybia was possibly the most important embassy in the world post the fall of the regime.

    They had 2 security guards and a ramshakle group of lybians.   Many requests where made for extra security and they where denied.

    There is no sugar coating this.  It was a collossal screw up on the part of State and this administration.  If they didn't know it they wouldn't have spent the past few weeks lying about what happened in order to cover it up.

    They should admit to the mistakes and move on.  Otherwise this story will last until the election.  The cover up and the press trying to cover for them is only making it drag out.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:02:13 PM EST
    Breitbart, Rep Mike Kelly, whose website sets off my McAfee Security software?

    They actually had 5 Diplomatic Security Officers in Benghazi at the time of the attack.  The extra staff was requested for Tripoli and would not have been in Benghazi.

    Parent

    So why is the administration (none / 0) (#98)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:04:45 PM EST
    lying about the attacks?

    No reason? Nothing better to do?

    Parent

    I don't know (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    why did you molest that child last week? (/s)

    It's a silly question, no one is lying.  Check the video from your peoples at 8:40.  Who is lying?

    Parent

    Why, oh why (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:39:17 PM EST
    would you guys attempt to rebut a poster whose idea of "National Security Done The Way it Should Be" is George Bush's monumental, and historic, disaster known simply as IRAQ?


    Parent
    If the Ambassador (none / 0) (#156)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:49:16 PM EST
    thought he was in danger, he probably would not have left the embassy in the first place on 9/11.

    Parent
    I understand the testimony (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:09:11 PM EST
    was that the additional requested security would not have made a difference.

    Some of the items were pretty small stuff, such as a higher wall, and the like.

    Given the magnitude of the assualt, it would appear an entire company or platoon of Marines would have been needed--and I do not believe that was the nature of the request for additional security.

    And the whole idea is to make the story last until the election--that was the reason for yesterday's premature hearing when Congress had already adjourned unitl after the election.

    Parent

    Well obviously (none / 0) (#119)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:35:01 PM EST
    As BTD always states pols will be pols.

    One set of pols (dems) spent 3 weeks lying about what they knew and when they knew it.

    Another set of pols (repubs) smelled blood in the water and are now calling them on it.

    Doesn't change the fact that an ambassador was murdered on this presidents watch.

    Blame who you want, get suddenly offended that republicans are using it for political advantage but the facts are the facts.


    Parent

    I'm so (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:01:07 PM EST
    glad you're finally holding George W. Bush responsible for all those American deaths on 9/11/01

    Parent
    BS (none / 0) (#135)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:34:04 PM EST
    One set of pols (dems) spent 3 weeks lying about what they knew and when they knew it.

    Proof, ... or it's just more typical, winger BS.

    Parent

    It is BS (none / 0) (#158)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:52:37 PM EST
    I have had the displeasure of seeing my doctor twice this past 10 days.  That group has Fox News on in the lobby, both times, about a half hour each time, they where beating the drums about Obama lying.

    But they never connected it to any point, like why would they lie about it.  This morning Peter King going on and on about how they lied.  

    But I got the impression it didn't matter why, and for the exact same BS to be on this morning as last Monday, as in 10 days ago, seems like they are pretty damn fixated.

    Drum beating at it's finest.  And I assume this is their "He's weak on foreign policy" mantra, but they never said it.  If a winger feels like explaining why it matters this much, I am all ears.

    Parent

    It apppears tha the root problem (none / 0) (#143)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:58:50 PM EST
    was having a consulate in Benghazi in the first place.  Typically, we must rely on the host country to prevent military-style assaults on our consulates.  "Security" that we provide is apparently designed to just prevent lone gunmen and isolated bombers, etc.

    In this case, I can see how one might think that the rebles in Benghazi were our allies and liked us.  That was and is probably true.

    The problem here is that the rebels did not have complete control over the area.  It was still too unstable.

    The requests for higher walls and more security guards would not have done anything to stop the military assault, according to yesterday's witnesses.

    So, I believe that in time we will come to learn that we should have pulled our people from Benghazi, or least not have our Ambassador there instead of in Tripoli at the main Embassy.

     

    Parent

    Know your venue, (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:27:12 PM EST
    and your enemies.

    It's the Election, stupid!

    The votes each side needs aren't going to be won by facts, reason, and/or logic. The Lying Bastards are displaying the notion that they're more concerned about protecting American lives & Blood than Professor Obama.

    I would rip into them about the countless deaths and broken bodies that are still piling up due to the last time America made the tragic mistake of letting Republicans handle National Security.

    How about one of the President's staff, when attacked by the Sub-Humans begin his/her response with, "HOW DARE YOU!!!"

    Parent

    They should certainly hit back (none / 0) (#186)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:36:23 PM EST
    my sense is that they will.  

    Parent
    It wasn't an (none / 0) (#142)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:55:38 PM EST
    embassy for one get your facts right.

    Parent
    The embassy was not attacked (none / 0) (#155)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:45:18 PM EST
    the consulate was.

    Parent
    All I can (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:53:45 PM EST
    go by is what he said and implied and that's exactly what he did four years ago. He wanted nothing to do with Bill until his a** was on the line and apparently had his people call Clinton's people back in 2011 when he realized he was not going to be able to sail to reelection.

    Maybe he still holds the Lincoln fantasy. I really don't know about that one.

    I told some other Republicans that if they were serious about Libya, they would pull Issa off the committee. The only thing Issa is capable of leading is a clown posse.

    Parent

    You kept saying he was an awful (none / 0) (#45)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:28:08 AM EST
    politician all through the primaries and he kept winning, you kept saying it through the last week in October 2008 and he won a landslide, forgive me If I take BTD's judgement to be less biased than you're own on this issue.

    Parent
    Winning... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:58:11 AM EST
    ...is the way to judge an politician, that would make GWB one hell of a politician, along with countless other republicans who have spent their entire lives in politics.

    I can't imagine anyone losing to the GOP in 2008.  And now Romney, who's own party has pretty much said isn't worthy of the nomination, but they got no one else.  This is the guy giving Obama a run for his money.  

    Obama has only succeeded because the competition has been so extraordinarily poor that he can't help but fall into winning.  But even now, he's having a hard time doing that.  How someone struggles to beat a man who want to bring back GWB's policies is mind boggling.

    He's an alright politician who mistaken thinks he is gifted enough to bring the country together and is willing to give a mile to get an inch.  His song and dance from 2008 isn't working, he's failed on way too many promises and his interest in jobs was pretty much non-existent until the campaign cycle.  And then only in lip service.  So he's left with his record, and while he does have some real solid accomplishments, he's failed in what most people care about, jobs.

    Parent

    You don't think Hillary was good competition? (none / 0) (#71)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:21:20 PM EST
    I mean I think she was horrible at running her campaign but from a straight up stand point she shes to be a decent politician who had a great brand name to run under.

    Parent
    I have to disagree with BTD on this (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by kmblue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:40:40 PM EST
    I don't think Obama is a great politician because he begins with compromise instead of taking a strong position in the first place.  Plus, he keeps pushing Simpson-Bowles, which is another way of compromising early and beating the rush.

    Parent
    Rewriting History (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Sweet Sue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:05:23 PM EST
    Hillary's campaign was horrible?
    Is that why she won all the big state primaries?
    Why do we keep forgetting that the DNC put its big fat thumb on the scale for Obama?
    Ask the voters in Michigan and Florida how it feels to be disenfranchised. You don't need those ID shenanigans, just make new voting rules on a voice vote.

    Parent
    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:22:48 PM EST
    Hillary was a formidable candidate and handed him is azz in every debate and every blue and swing state, and made him sound like a weak "whatshesaid" on policy.

    As it turns out, the RBC was quite tough competition also.

    Parent

    Really everry swing state (none / 0) (#145)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:02:31 PM EST
    She lost Virgnia, Wisconsin, Indiana, North Carolina, Colorado, Iowa, etc- last I checked those were swing states.

    Parent
    You need to differentiate (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:07:08 PM EST
    between primaries and caucuses.  Two very different animals.  I love caucuses -- I've run caucuses -- but they are not democratic.  

    And not that any of that matters anyway, your false claims, notwithstanding.  O needs to stand on his own.  And this hugely successful (according to you) President is on the verge of of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  Apparently most of America is not on your page.

    Parent

    North Carolina, Indiana, and Wisconsin (none / 0) (#184)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:34:50 PM EST
    were all primaries.

    Parent
    Additionally (none / 0) (#185)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:35:45 PM EST
    virtually every available EC projection has Obama above 300 which, last time I checked would be enough for re-election.

    Parent
    "Virtually" - heh (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:40:23 PM EST
    Funny what you can write after such a qualifier.

    Maybe you should check again.

    Parent

    So if the election were (none / 0) (#188)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:37:48 PM EST
    held today, he'd win.  Okay.  It's not being held today.  

    (Although I expect early voting has begun in some places)

    Parent

    Her campaigns flaw (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:59:20 PM EST
    was thinking only big states matter and ignoring everything else, whereas the Obama campaign fought hard in every state outside of Appalachia.

    Parent
    ZOMG Iowa!! (none / 0) (#147)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:08:21 PM EST
    Stop it you're scaring me....

    Parent
    Yeah, but while Hillary's campaign was ... (none / 0) (#198)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:46:57 PM EST
    ...concentrating on a big state like California, they forgot the small caucus-oriented states like Hawaii, Alaska and Idaho. Thus, whatever significant advantage she derived by winning the California primary, some 38 delegates (204 to 166), were more than offset by the sharp losses she incurred in the party caucuses in those three small and "insignificant" states.

    For example, Hawaii had 29 delegates, and 23 of them were ultimately pledged to Obama. In Alaska Obama took 16 of its 22 delegates, and in Idaho he took 22 of its 30 delegates.

    Thus, if you add together the delegate totals of California, Hawaii, Idaho and Alaska, it's readily apparent that Hillary actually suffered a net loss of three delegates.

    That's why her campaign's decision to focus on the big state primaries to the near-exclusion of the small caucus-oriented states was a huge mistake.

    Parent

    I Do. (none / 0) (#77)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:37:38 PM EST
    And if I had to do it over, she would get my primary vote.  But her campaign faltered to say the least.

    I said the guy was alright, he's certainly had me excited in 2008.  But that isn't who is in this election, Obama 2012 is not Obama 2008.

    There's no hope left in him after failing at bringing us together and giving away the farm in the process.

    Parent

    The fact that (none / 0) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:05:39 PM EST
    he won has nothing to do with him being a good or bad politician. I mean by those standards George W. Bush was a GREAT politician. You could say the tea party has produced great politicians back in 2010. A good politician produces good policy. A good politician would have spent the entire term working on our largest problem--the economy instead of wasting a year on the ACA.

    The Obama that showed up in Denver is the Obama that I saw back in 2008. And he has largely not disappointed me on that account.

    Parent

    30 million Americans on Healthcare (none / 0) (#146)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:05:12 PM EST
    the goal of every Democratic pol since FDR and to you its wasted time. I mean I guess he could have set up midnight basketball, gutted entitlements and massively deregulated the financial sector like Clinton did but he choose another path.

    Parent
    CBO disagrees (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:15:01 PM EST
    Did you (none / 0) (#190)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:39:40 PM EST
    really just cite CNS news to make a point, what's next NewsMax and and WorldnetDaily?

    Parent
    This (none / 0) (#196)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:45:40 PM EST
    is a ridiculous conversation and just a way of avoiding the train wreck that could potentially be setting up.

    Way to focus on the trees and forget the forest.

    Parent

    So even the hacktackular (none / 0) (#193)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:41:23 PM EST
    source you used states that the Supreme Court doubled the number left uninsured post-ACA and even with that it takes 14 million out the uninsured pool- literally saving 10,000s of lives annually.

    Parent
    The goal (4.50 / 4) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:25:06 PM EST
    has been universal healthcare not a bailout of the insurance companies which is basically what the ACA does. Do you think buying junk insurance is really going to get people healthcare? I had cancer last year and I have insurance and I have bills out the ying yang because we had a 3K deductible which is pretty standard in a lot of places this year if not even up to 5K for the deductible. The insurance companies have it figured out what to set these things so you end up bearing most of the cost of a procedure. They have actuaries who do nothing but sit in rooms and figure out how high deductibles need to be and what percentage they are going to have to pay out in order to make money.

    Parent
    So what (3.00 / 2) (#195)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:43:54 PM EST
    Obama should have just pulled a Clinton and given up entirely instead of getting an imperfect solution that is still a huge step forward. Let me guess FDR was a racist sell out since Social Security was specifically structured to exclude the vast majority of African Americans.

    Parent
    Or, he could have just ... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:50:18 PM EST
    ... let the Republicans write Obamacare in order to achieve such a "huge step forward".

    Heh.

    Parent

    In about a year (none / 0) (#200)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:51:25 PM EST
    all of this Obamacare bashing is going to start to seem very silly.

    #solidbet

    Parent

    #stupidbet n/t (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:55:42 PM EST
    So you think (none / 0) (#202)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:52:17 PM EST
    ... in two Friedman units, then?

    Parent
    Obama's man problem dealing with Romney is (none / 0) (#54)
    by Farmboy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:41:49 AM EST
    that Romney is strong in Heisenberg-fu, and Obama keeps trying to pin him down. It has been the basic strategy of Mitt's campaign to take every position on every issue so that he can't be held to any particular view. He did this during the primaries and he's doing it during the general. The media loves it, and lately the people love it. It's the art of the deal, writ large.

    However, this approach absolutely isn't standard fare for the GOP. They want the appearance of a purity of ideology out of their politicians. With Mitt they're settling for a chance at getting Obama out of the White House and their drones back in. On a personal level I'm convinced they can't stand the Mittster, and don't trust him beyond the shared yearning for power.

    Parent

    One of my winger friends from Wyoming (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:03:20 PM EST
    Chose to toy with me this morning.  I reminded him that Mitt Romney has 5 sons and while he supported the Iraq War nobody served.  Joe Biden's family had survived a horrible tragedy, yet when the nation was at war one of Joe's two sons went with the unwashed.  Pointing certain things out to the righteous patriotic purity wingers makes them pretty crazy.

    Parent
    There must be a way for Biden to work this fact (none / 0) (#122)
    by mogal on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:46:28 PM EST
    into the debate tonight.

    Parent
    I am thinking more and more (none / 0) (#123)
    by the capstan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:50:41 PM EST
    that we are going to be looking at a GOP presidency (making Hillary run in '16?)  I guess I will survive--being well over 65--but my kids will be heading into trouble (and my son's marriage will become illegal, so I may lose him to another country).

    Parent
    Thx for the FDR video, always (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:54:28 AM EST
    worth seeing again.  It's been shown several times on Msnbc and Current in the past two weeks.  

    But it's a speech, not FDR in debate.  Not sure if he ever had to debate.  Two entirely different skill sets, speechmaking and debating.  We know Roosevelt excelled at delivering the prepared political address, like Obama.  But we can't really say anything about his debating skills.

    The two best Dem presidents at debating were JFK (my favorite 20th C prez) and Clinton.  Obama should be spending a good deal of time in the film room reviewing how those two masters of the form took care of business.  

    Especially on point would be Bill's three encounters with another smart, elitist and kinda slick talking GOP mouthpiece, also someone who conveniently shifted positions out of political expediency, one George H W "Poppy" Bush.

    Obama needs to learn how to be tough and aggressive without going into Angry Scary Black Guy territory, which a lot of his big fans seem to think is what's holding him back.  

    The Angry Scary (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:58:30 AM EST
    thing strikes me as apologist from start to finish.  As if one must either be passive milquetoast or raging bully.  I'm surprised that such a "centrist" as Obama can't find the middle between those two polarities.

    Parent
    I thought so too until I saw (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:13:09 AM EST
    a sociology (I think) professor on Current talk about it. She said research has found that people see black men as threatening before they even say or do a thing, and that knowing that many black men, and probably Obama, have grown up with a habit of trying extra hard to appear non-threatening.

    I do agree that it is time to find the balance.

    Parent

    Okay, I see what you are saying (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:29:36 AM EST
    But we're talking about a man who has years of public life and is now the POTUS for crying out loud.  It's long past time to find the balance, but better late than never.

    Parent
    I Agree... (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:09:17 PM EST
    ...this is a know personality, the President of the United States I think can get angry without scaring white folks.  I don't remember anyone making that claim when he was called out on the Senate floor and got angry.

    I don't buy that people think Obama is threatening at this point in the game.  Making the whole premise not workable.

    Parent

    Saw that prof too, Brown U (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:02:18 PM EST
    woman.  I thought she was running a little too hard with one bit of research that may be out of date, flawed, or just taken too much as an insurmountable barrier.  Iow another way to excuse his lame debate performance.

    Smart successful pols find a way around the barriers.  As with Kennedy and Catholicism, Clinton and women/the draft. Work the darn problem rather than letting the problem work you.

    Parent

    And the GOP.... (none / 0) (#67)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:11:14 PM EST
    ...has spent fours years claiming he's weak, that one is scared of him.

    Parent
    They do that with one side of their mouth (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:20:41 PM EST
    while the other side reminds people he is black. Very good at appealing to both kinds of emotional reactions. People afraid of blacks and people in need of a strong daddy figure.

    Parent
    I didn't get the impression she was putting it (none / 0) (#151)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:23:35 PM EST
    out there as an insurmountable barrier, just a factor in why he may have developed a more reticent personality than some of us would like.

    Parent
    I think this is pretty good (none / 0) (#133)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:29:55 PM EST
    a slightly bemused, fired up and AWAKE President.  TPM

    Parent
    You can't compare a stump speech (none / 0) (#138)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:45:57 PM EST
    with a debate or town hall.  No one is talking back on a stump speech.

    Parent
    I meant to add (none / 0) (#139)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:50:10 PM EST
    that, even though speechifying is different than debating, it looks like there is something there for him to tap into.

    Parent
    Embrace the Angry Black Guy (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    Wouldn't you want a bad as* motherf*cker to be your Commander in Chief?  Osama, say hello to Shaft.  I know, I know, stereotypes are not good, and this is an exaggeration, but work it if it helps you.

    Or, as Bill Clinton would say, it is better to be wrong and strong than right and weak.

    People need to see Obama as strong in the next debate.  The details of all of Romney's lies need not all be corrected during the debate.  But projecting strength is critical.

    Parent

    Absolute worst thing he can do (none / 0) (#41)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:19:34 AM EST
    when the only folks that should need convincing at this point are holdouts in the middle.

    IMO.

    Parent

    With Obama, the risk is being (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:28:42 AM EST
    too compromisng, not too confrontive.  He is not really an angry person, but he needs to punch it up.

    Parent
    Oh, I get it (none / 0) (#53)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:40:40 AM EST
    and personally, would live to see a little righteous indignation.  For where things are at now however, I agree w/Lilburro's analysis below.  

    Parent
    Perhaps that's who he is. (none / 0) (#55)
    by robert72 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:44:31 AM EST
    The guy at the debate may be who Obama is. Remember the picture of the meeting on the decision to go in and get Osama Bin Laden? That little guy in the corner on the stool, with the bent over apologetic body language was the same one who was debating.


    Parent
    I saw a fiercely determined look (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:58:44 AM EST
    look in Obama's eye in the iconic photo.

    I also remember Obama's comment in the 2008 debate against McCain that he would "crush Al Qaeda and kill Bin Laden."  It made me sit bolt upright when he said it.

    Your comment, however, does emphasize the need for Obama to look strong in the next debate....

    Parent

    Don't think that (none / 0) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:03:30 PM EST
    photo you are referring to was a meeting on the decision to go in and get Osama bin Laden.  It was a photograph of the assembled principles during the execution of that  decision.  To me, that photo (with Secretary Clinton holding her hand over her mouth), was one of a leader permitting key operations officers to execute the decision.  The photo we would need would be of the meeting(s) in which the decision was made based on the information available--including some safeguards such as the second helicopter which proved to be a good call by the president.  

    Parent
    Haven't seen that photo (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:15:57 PM EST
    The photo of Obama sitting in a corner looking "little" as was derorgatorily put above, was the photo with Clinton with her hand over her mouth.

    It takes quite a strethc to call Obama weak based on that photo.

    Parent

    Yeah, I have seen some stretches (none / 0) (#136)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:37:11 PM EST
    but that might be the farthest.

    Parent
    Just channeling my inner Bill Maher (none / 0) (#42)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:23:18 AM EST
    Maher gave $1 million (none / 0) (#173)
    by sallywally on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:18:19 PM EST
    to Obama. I don't think Bill thinks he's weak.

    Parent
    MKS (none / 0) (#189)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:39:38 PM EST
    I agree with you.  I believe the fear of looking like an ABG is what happened in that first debate.  He needs to turn that "negative" into a positive.  Hit hard, make cool quips and fluster Romney and make him look old and out of touch.

    Parent
    That would help (none / 0) (#194)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:42:26 PM EST
    Do you want to bet any virtual cocktails that it will actually happen?

    Parent
    Sorry ABG (none / 0) (#210)
    by kmblue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 06:10:56 PM EST
    I think you're way wrong.  Obama's contempt for Romney was palpable, which worked to Romney's advantage.  Obama's irritation at even having to be there was also keenly felt.  Obama is incapable of speaking clearly and plainly (um, you know).  And to top it off, Obama thought his performance was successful until he saw his aides heading for the fainting couch.  Wait until you watch Obama be cool instead of caring and concerned to his questioners in the town meeting format.

    I don't think I can watch.  I would be delighted to be proved wrong, but I am not hopeful.

     

    Parent

    So CNN is showing photos of Paul Ryan working (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:22:41 AM EST
    out with weights today, and his running claims don't make his weight lifting photo op a sort of shameful show?  How does that work?

    How transparent can you get? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:08:21 AM EST
    We know Paul, you are younger than Joe Biden. So what?

    Parent
    Oh my (none / 0) (#111)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:03:04 PM EST
    Those pictures are unintentionally hilarious.  The photos are available at a link from here.  The macho posturing/posing makes him look ripped but not too bright.

    Thank back to his misrepresentations of his fitness level:  this could potentially be a gift.  If used right...

    Parent

    Those pics... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:16:39 PM EST
    look like stills from a gay pron flick right before the "bom chika wah wah".

    Parent
    Uh, no. (none / 0) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:35:26 PM EST
    Don't leave us with bad visuals like that, kdog.

    Besides, everyone knows that über-studly, pro-life (and probably married) GOP congressmen like Paul Ryan are far more likely to get caught on audiotape compelling one of their girlfriends-on-the-side to seek an abortion, than to appear on video in gay porn.

    Parent

    I did laugh out loud. Not what I was expecting. (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    What goofy looking pictures.

    Give me the Scott Brown centerfold anytime.

    Parent

    Gross (none / 0) (#115)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:06:24 PM EST
    there seems to be a perception in the media that people find Paul Ryan attractive.  I think he looks like Pinocchio, which is convenient.

    Parent
    Nope. Not Pinocchio. (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Zorba on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:42:14 PM EST
    He looks like a slightly older Eddie Munster.     ;-)

    Parent
    with buggier eyes (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:58:14 PM EST
    He bears a strong resemblance (none / 0) (#125)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:00:40 PM EST
    to a very good friend of mine, so be kind :)

    The difference is my friend also has a good heart, mind and spirit.  Plus he can knock back shots of tequila like you would not believe.

    Parent

    Paul Ryan looks like (5.00 / 4) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:11:53 PM EST
    a tax cheater to me.   I hope that VP Biden weaves in the fact that Ryan and his wife recently filed an amended tax return (on the same day that Mittens released, finally, his 20ll return).  Ryan, the "numbers guy" told the IRS that he "inadvertently" failed to report $61, 122 in income on his personal 20ll tax return.  The $61, 122 in skipped income represents 20% of his total income bringing his income for the year to $323, 416 and increased his income taxes for that year from about $20,000 to $65,000.  This lapse would give opportunity to resurrect the coveted tax returns of Romney, as well.

    Parent
    Good lord the pschoanalysis (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:12:09 AM EST
    Obama wants to be liked, Obama has issues because of his parents, Obama thinks he's the greatest thing since baked bread.  Sheesh, with all due respect, a bunch of you are projecting quite a bit methinks.

    IMO, its much more simple.  He believes in the middle ground and wants to see it work because that's what we want.  Further, history has shown, compromise is where the big things get done.

    BTD is talking style in selling to the public, and indeed, O needs to work on the sell.  Trusting us to "get it" isn't going to work.  Who cares about why he's selling?  

    Yeah (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:26:19 AM EST
    the psychoanalysis is silly.  

    Obama isn't going to come out angry per se, he can't be seen as the Angry Black Guy.  He can be the reasonable, realistic black guy, which I think he has been at his strongest in political situations (think debt ceiling negotiation press conferences).  I don't think you have to come off as angry to poke holes in what Romney is saying, anyway.  He doesn't have to take it personally, he just has to flummox Romney and make Romney look like the snide person he has presented himself to be for most of the campaign.  IMO anyway.

    Biden can probably be a lot angrier, if that is needed.  Overall I would assume the Obama team is meticulously polling in swing states and nationally to determine what people are looking for from the President.  What they find is what we're going to get.

    Doesn't explain whatever the hell happened in Denver, but that's all I've got.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#108)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:42:50 PM EST
    "....he can't be seen as the Angry Black Guy."

    Maybe you're right; look how portraying "an angry black guy" destroyed Clarence Thomas's candidacy.

    Parent

    When was Thomas an angry black guy? (none / 0) (#112)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:03:39 PM EST
    No one cares if conservative black guys are angry anyway; it only counts in a liberal context (in which anger is read as "kill whitey!!")  

    Parent
    I didn't think anyone could (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:06:44 PM EST
    forget the "high-tech lynching" Thomas deemed the testimony of Anita Hill to be at his confirmation hearings...he seemed plenty angry that day.

    Parent
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#131)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:22:23 PM EST
    I was pretty young at that time.  My other point holds true I believe.

    Parent
    One doesn't need to dial up anger in (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:33:17 PM EST
    order to project passion - and it's passion that Obama lacks.  Yes, he's the president, so there's a certain amount of being above the fray that goes along with that, but I think he could maintain that and still do it with some enthusiasm and passion.

    What hurt him was projecting an aura of I'd-rather-be-anywhere-but-here.

    Parent

    lilburro is (none / 0) (#192)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:40:45 PM EST
    channeling me with these comments.  All of that is exactly right.

    Don't hate him for it.

    Parent

    Thomas was not (none / 0) (#161)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:59:20 PM EST
    running for popular election

    Parent
    He was also trying to (none / 0) (#207)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:56:07 PM EST
    protect himself vs some serious charges against his character.  A little more leeway allowed there.

    Parent
    Just to contribute to the multitude of opinions. (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 02:59:08 PM EST
    I just think O needs to keep it natural and not get tied up in debate rules and over-preparation. To me, he is at his best when he is natural and just himself - at campaign events, etc.   He is likable, appealing, smart, direct, etc.

    I just felt he was hamstrung by too much 'debate-itis'.

    For the next debate, I hope he is encouraged to be himself.

    Parent

    I think so too (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:41:31 PM EST
    plus just plain rusty at that fake format where no one in the audience is allowed to utter a word and you have to stand there and be aware of how you look for the camera even when you are not talking.

    Yes, he should have known all that and done a better job but I don't read a lot of deep meaning into it.

    Parent

    too funny (none / 0) (#51)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:36:43 AM EST
    while you are busy dismissing others because they are projecting, you are -- at the very same time -- projecting all over the place.

    Parent
    No actually (none / 0) (#57)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:58:29 AM EST
    I'm not.

    Parent
    Your not-projection: (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:10:51 PM EST
    IMO, its much more simple.  He believes in the middle ground and wants to see it work because that's what we want.  
    There's projection all over that -- not only on O but whomever you decided "we" might be.

    It doesn't bother me any more than anyone else's "projection."  It's human nature to seek understanding.  

    And finding middle ground is way, way, way down on the list of things I find important.  Way, way, way down.  Probably non-existent, in fact.

    Parent

    x 2 (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:27:12 PM EST
    I imagine what you think we all want is what you want, certainly not what I want.

    What I want most of all is a job for any American who wants one.  The other stuff is fluff.  It's not right in land of so much that people who want to turn their skills into dollars can't.

    I could give a F about the GOP, they have liars who in my lifetime have failed at every turn, from Wars to the economy and I don't give what they think.  I have no interest in befriending hateful bigots who lie pathologically.

    Parent

    No, there's not (none / 0) (#81)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:43:14 PM EST
    Understand what projection is first, it's not what you think:

    a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings

    An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another person or object.

    The "we" I refer to is polling that indicates Americans overwhelmingly want D's & R's to work together on tough issues.

    Parent

    Thank you for that definition (none / 0) (#88)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:52:52 PM EST
    I repeat: you're projecting all over the place. But I'm done talking about it.

    Parent
    I would also reiterate (none / 0) (#82)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:44:38 PM EST
    the psycho analysis of motivations doesn't matter.  What matters is the end-result and impact on citizen's lives.

    Parent
    Genius (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:30:16 PM EST
    In the 1950s there was a television program called "Kukla, Fran and Ollie". It is, I suppose, a puppet show - but it is such great art I am awestruck.

    Recently, the Estate of Burr Tillstrom, the puppeteer, has issued two DVDs which contain films of some of their earliest broadcasts. It is amazing to watch these show, unfolding on live television- and to a large extent improvised.

    The "puppets" are so infused with original personalities that it is impossible not to think of them as real - and having lives of their own. Fran Allison has to be seen to be appreciated. She interacts with Kukla, Ollie and the other puppets in a truly human, kind and personal way.

    There is no agenda.

    But there is incredible charm and sweetness.

    I think these DVDs contain great art. Unique art.

    Wow, hate to admit it but (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by fishcamp on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 06:42:12 PM EST
    Kukla, Fran, and Ollie were the first "people" I remember on television and they were terrific.

    last paragraph (none / 0) (#1)
    by antagonist on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:15:58 AM EST
    big tent you may want to re-write it again,  it is very funny. clue  who are the liars? Roosevelt and Clinton?

    I'm comfortable with my phrasing (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:24:47 AM EST
    It takes someone wanting to willfully misread the post to doubt it.

    For some reason, I think you know what I mean, and I am pretty sure I know what you mean.

    Parent

    not willfully (none / 0) (#3)
    by antagonist on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:37:29 AM EST
    but yes you are only talking to the congregation


    Parent
    You don't like FDR? (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:04:08 AM EST
    Even Reagan said he liked FDR.

    Parent
    mks (none / 0) (#26)
    by antagonist on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:23:42 AM EST
    I was commenting on the phrasing of  the sentence how it could be misread. I like to antagonize those with big egos
    I prefer Clinton

    Parent
    Really? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:51:54 AM EST
    You like to antagonize?  I think that's rather unpleasant.  Now mind you I'm not above antagonizing someone but that's usually an inadvertant product of personal indignation.  

    I hope you don't pick fights intentionally, because seriously?  I don't see how that sentence can be easily misread.  Someone has to either really look it sideways/upside or be unfamiliar with English syntax.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:24:08 PM EST
    I actually think about 1/3 of the people who visit sites like TL and dKos are there to antagonize. I seem to get jumped on quite a bit by those who I actually agree with.

    Parent
    I have to download the Stitcher still (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:11:13 AM EST
    To hear you and David.  I know, I'm dragging my feet because technology intimidates me.  I figure I'm going to screw it up first right out of the gate and I have to prepare myself.  Thank you for the FDR video.  I think Biden will do well tonight and hopefully the President can be better prepared for street fighting.  Dan Senor was on the tube this morning for the Romney campaign, almost made me vomit.  He was so self assured and polished to a high shine, the spinmaster for Paul Bremmer in Iraq.  My husband was sending home letters that he feared de-Baathification was going to burn the Sunni triangle down, and it did and people died by the 1,000s and Dan Senor smiled and glowed on.

    Obama's real problem is... (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:31:04 AM EST
    that people are tired of hearing that the financial crisis was Bush's fault - and even less interested in hearing that the truth is a bit more a story of bipartisan fault.  Either way they're ready to believe in whoever proposes magic beans or fairy dust to rebuild a structurally defective economy.

    Parent
    I think you have a point (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:57 AM EST
    He isn't making his case, and he has done some things right.  Regulation hasn't been enacted to the degree that it should be at this point does him few favors.  BUT...one of the items that is going to be discussed in the Caymans with Dubya Bush as their keynote speaker is "How to Survive or Deal with Regulation" or some such thing.  So things have changed for the economy gutting 1%.

    ACA only fully kicked in for children, the rest of America has had a few items kick in but has not experienced everything that is there for them that will dramatically improve their quality of life and their peace of mind.

    I do not think that most Americans believe that fairy dust can fix anything at this point.  We sense the cliff that Bush pushed us off of that we can continue to fall off of under Romney.  I think the majority of us have an idea that just voting in the other guy can really phuck us.  Being disenchanted with a President on some issues doesn't mean you should go with Satan :)

    The people who I know who have firmed for Romney were Conservative to begin with, they didn't like him though...now they like him.

    Can the President become enough of a street fighter and throw some punches (because he has them to throw even though they don't get highlighted much) to firm up the middle?  I think he can.  If this guy can decide to go for Bin Laden and if he can request a plan that includes enough troops for the soldiers to fight their way out of Pakistan if needed, he will fight the rest of this out whether he likes to fight or not.  He knows how to fight, he just doesn't like to fight.

    Parent

    First time unemployments claims (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:01:45 AM EST
    just dropped by 30,000 to lowest level since February 2008.  

    Gallup, fwiw, has shown a drop in the unemployment rate to 7.3 from 7.9 in the last week.

    U.S. debt, which inludes private debt,  is at a four year low.

    And the federal government was in the black in September for the first time in a long time.

    Housing prices are up.

    Parent

    Punches to throw (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:03:16 AM EST
    Throw em

    Parent
    I hope Biden tonight uses (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:05:38 AM EST
    the drop in unemployment claims that just came out.  It is fairly dramatic decrease.

    Parent
    Did you see the latest Pew Poll? (none / 0) (#100)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:14:57 PM EST
    They claim that the public, Re: "likeability," chooses Ryan over Biden by a pretty big 10 points.

    I mean, I've got my beefs with Biden too....but Ryan???

    Just another reason Obama's debacle can't be overstated. His (pre-debate) lead over Romney seems to have been pretty soft. When that weasel, "Granny Starver," goes into his debate with a 10 point lead, what does that tell you about the knowledge the great unwashed possesses?

    Parent

    I have to wonder how well (none / 0) (#106)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:30:30 PM EST
    they really know Ryan. Next to Mittens, he prob does come off as pretty likable . . .

    Parent
    Biden has been painted as just this side of (none / 0) (#154)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:29:47 PM EST
    a raving lunatic by the press and the GOP. I hope he takes the opportunity to dispel some myths.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#167)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:11:20 PM EST
    he does have a delicate task ahead......if he's to take Ryan (and Romney by proxy) to the cleaners.

    My advise:

    1'st...For substance, and discipline's sake, not one word about "working together to solves America's problems." This truly is War; for each percent compromised, countless lives will be lost, depreciated, and/or diminished.

    2'nd..Put moderator on notice; This is serious business, treat it as such. No more non-answer answers, no "gotchas," and no Barbara Walters, Founder of the, "if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?" questions.

    And,

    3'rd.. Like any good lawyer, intimate early that every word of Romney's first debate was a lie. Then, attack, attack, attack. Don't be diverted, pick out three or four whoppers, bite into his ankle. And don't let go till the punk`s tears are flowing.

    Basically, Obama screwed up big time a few days ago. Everyone's sure a big turnaround is coming. The Romney boys have shown they're not stupid. They're doing to "O" what "O" did to Hillary early in their Primary. Trust me, they're not stopping after the "whupping" they administered to Obama.

    "Bring it home, Joe!" (and leave the blinding smile at home)


    Parent

    Right off the bat (none / 0) (#174)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:19:55 PM EST
    your #1 poked punctured any momentum #2 and #3 might have gathered.

    I will be very, very happy to be wrong and to have Biden not even suggest that we should "work together", but I don't think that's going to happen.  I haven't seen that lesson learned AT ALL.

    Parent

    I'll tell you something, sj (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:46:53 PM EST
    The baseball playoffs coinciding with this election have put me in a real foul mood. Watching all those teams, having endured the better part of 200 games each, and now in the playoffs, fighting their "effing" hearts out for all the right reasons: their fans, their cities, their families, their teachers and coaches, The Country, and, of course themselves.

    And, it's only a game. But, "The Game" is a metaphor for all the qualities our Founders prayed for when they designed our country.

    I would just like to see our "leaders" display 1/100th. of the effort these young guys do for "a game."

    I'm sorry, but, Obama just reminds me of the spoiled, overpaid "Phenom" who won't run out a ground ball."

    Parent

    Well technically all he did (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:11:55 AM EST
    in those instances was to order others to fight.  We'll see if he personally knows how.  Or at least to throw some sharp elbows and often.

    Because frankly I have difficulty conjuring up the image of Obama the pugilist in the ring.  And I worry that nearly all his political career he hadn't really had a tough opponent he had to conquer.  Hillary was bested only in one part by a good O campaign, less so in debate combat.  And O was greatly assisted in victory by a lousy HC campaign and by an anti-Clinton MSM.

    I doubt Willard is shaking in his Brooks Brothers boots either over the prospect of facing some tough fighting version of Obama.

    Parent

    Obama can make a few simple (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:37:09 AM EST
    changes and be much better.

    Don't look down.  Have a crisp, punchy closing.  Those two changes alone would have been a vast improvement.

    Obama will never have the fluidity and rapid fire style that works best in debates.  But even with his own style he can confront Romney and be strong.

    Parent

    I don't want Romney scared (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:24:15 AM EST
    I like him his sedated and automated self please :)

    Parent
    How can you tell the difference? (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:30:56 AM EST
    I think he snuck into someone's Adderall (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:36:31 AM EST
    Before the Denver debate.  Who knows though, some doctor is writing scripts for it in Canton for children in overcrowded schools trying to make up for the lack of good teaching :)  Who knows why Romney needed it.  I was having 80's cocaine flashbacks watching him though.  Smile till your face hurts.

    Parent
    Am I the only person who doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:01:46 PM EST
    understand why Bill Clinton wasn't called in to prep Obama for the debates?  To help him find a way to damn Romney with faint praise, to do a Chicago version of "bless your heart?"

    Wouldn't be shocked if it had been suggested and rejected, and not because Clinton doesn't have anything to teach Obama about debating.

    Obama doesn't do well off-the-cuff and unscripted - and he's too much in his head and not enough in his heart or his gut.  Clnton could teach him that speaking from the places where emotion lives is what would connect him to the people.

    I won't get into the psychoanalysis, other than to say that Obama's always seemed very walled-off emotionally - at least to me - and it hurts him in these debates where he can't substitute the crowd's energy and emotion for his own.  People don't need to see anger, but they might like to see some passion, something that makes people believe he really loves what he's doing.  That was the thing about Clinton - his joy at being able to educate people on the issues was powerful enough to help lead them to where he believed they should want to go.  I get the feeling that if I was out to dinner with Obama and I asked him what he was going to order, he'd want to know what I wanted before he'd commit to anything - instead of saying, "I'm going to have the salmon - I've heard it's really good here, just the perfect combination of flavors and texture - I can't wait to try it!"

    As for tonight, I'm not worried about Biden; debates aren't the arena where he tends to go rogue.  What I will be interested in is whether Martha Raddatz can do a better job of controlling the format and even - dare I say it? - not allowing the candidates to slide on specifics.  Or to call BS on the outright lies.  Ryan's managed to dodge and weave and weasel and lie his way out of the specifics, and someone needs to call him on it - I hope Raddatz is up to it, but I'm not overly confident she is.

    Parent

    I don't think this ... (none / 0) (#129)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:11:23 PM EST
    Clnton could teach him that speaking from the places where emotion lives is what would connect him to the people.
    can be learned in days.  But this
    To help him find a way to damn Romney with faint praise, to do a Chicago version of "bless your heart?"
    would have been great.

    As for all the upcoming debates, I hope they have finally figured out that they need to find a way to make it clear when the GOP candidate is lying.  Here's the thing, though. Or maybe it's a thing: I don't have a lot of confidence that they know when lies have been spoken.  And by "they" I mean O more than Biden, but Biden, also.  I've never gotten the impression that grasp of policy details -- his own, much less his opponent's -- has been a strength.  

    Parent

    Me, either. (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:28:33 PM EST
    But I'm not so sure it's that he doesn't have a good grasp as much as he doesn't have as much interest; with Clinton, I always had the feeling that he was as enamored of and excited about the journey itself as he was about arriving at his destination - with Obama, eh, not so much.

    No point in trying to make Obama into someone he isn't, but what he needs in order to prevail in a debate setting is someone to get him to work off his strengths, not his weaknesses.  And I'm sorry, but if what we saw last week was the fruit of John Kerry's labor, and Kerry's still the one prepping him, I wouldn't look for Obama to dazzle anyone at the next debate.

    Parent

    But John Kerry actually did quite well ... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:23:49 PM EST
    ... in the 2004 debates with George W. Bush. It was the rest of his campaign that really sucked.

    Parent
    I would watch the next debate (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:51:26 PM EST
    if I thought this were to happen:

    To help him find a way to damn Romney with faint praise, to do a Chicago version of "bless your heart?"

    That would be hysterical, especially because I think it would fly right over Mitten's head.

    Parent

    you mean like (5.00 / 4) (#180)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:30:02 PM EST
    'you're likable enough, Mitt?'

    Parent
    I think candidate Obama sprinkled (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:18:23 PM EST
    copious amounts of fairy dust.  He has been one-upped.

    Parent
    I forgive him for beating Hillary (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:49:34 PM EST
    I have even been grateful that she is our Secretary of State.  She has a lot of impact on my life too.  Her successes keep soldiers home and keep people out of harms way.  If a person is the measure of their works, she is a giant now.

    That was a street fight though at times, don't tell me he doesn't have a little street fight in there.  I've seen it :)

    Parent

    She's a shoo-in in 2016 too if she wants it. (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by magster on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    I hope so (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:57:25 PM EST
    She has earned it

    Parent
    Smacks of "inevitability." (none / 0) (#171)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:17:10 PM EST
    Paul Ryan, (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:49:21 AM EST
    the self-described "numbers guy" needs to get from Biden the treatment of my grade school nuns-show your work.  And, have the ruler ready to go.

    Parent
    Stop...I'm starting to fantasize :) (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:57:02 AM EST
    I won't read 50 Shades of Grey.  I think it's crap.  I think it's unhealthy.  My spouse was giving me a hard time last night though because I say that if I hadn't married I would have moved to D.C. and made a living in leather spanking evil Republicans.  I told him that's different.

    Parent
    MT, I thought Stitcher (none / 0) (#70)
    by fishcamp on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:19:26 PM EST
    would be a problem to download and work with too but it's easy and I also have it on my iPhone and on XM in my car so I can't get away from BTD unless I go out fishing in my boat.

    Parent
    Thank you for the pep talk (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:44:43 PM EST
    I needed it.  I have grown very fond of my new phone. I'm thinking Oh Boy, I'm really going to screw it up.  But how cool to have it on hand everywhere?  Josh has a surgery and you're trying to think about something else, phone is in hand only need ear buds, doesn't matter if you aren't home and are in unfamiliar surroundings.

    Parent
    This summed it up (none / 0) (#5)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:13:47 AM EST
    "You need Obama before and after a debate, and Hillary(or Bill)  during"

    BTD (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:08:52 AM EST
    When you have mommy AND daddy issues up the yang, like Obama does(and I have them too, so I am no one to criticize), and obviously so, it is very difficult to put yourself out there as a divisive figure. You'll let others say you're divisive, but to actually get out there and play the psychological hardball that must be divisive in the sense of taking righteous sides, forget it, Barack Obama is incapable of it. His desire to be liked by everyone, even those who will never do anything but hate him irrationally, is far too strong.  Clinton is much better, I agree, but even Bill falls FAR short of what progressives need and deserve from a leader.  

    Mitt has doggie issues. (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:54:39 PM EST
    And women's rights issues. And issues with the poor and middle class, and minorities, and the youth.....

    Parent
    And if I'm proved wrong on Tuesday... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:09:46 AM EST
    ...I'll let you hurl sacks of horse manure at me and I'll give you an hour to draw a crowd.

    Parent
    Well - to be fair (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:23:19 AM EST
    Didn't Bill Clinton have that too? Desperate desire to be liked, by everyone?

    Somehow it didn't stop him.

    DAdler, I don't disagree with your take - I just think if you're going to go for office at the highest level, Mommy/Daddy issues shouldn't stop you.

    I actually think it's more that Obama's simply a deep narcissist, and can't believe that he has to "do his homework" as he said, and actually get up and justify himself to masses that should be adoring him, just for being him.

    Parent

    Every politician has a desperate desire (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:25:38 AM EST
    to be liked and loved, some are just willing to settle for fewer likers and lovers.  Some them consider rabid love superior :)

    Parent
    But Clinton should have daddy issues? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:19:29 AM EST
    I do think that our psychology influences us greatly, but no matter where you fight (and Obama does fight in the back room) there are pluses and minuses to everyone's style and strength.

    I don't know how you become President of the United States coming from humble origins and be THAT incapable of any one behavioral aspect.  I think Obama has preferences and I think he miscalculated, but I don't think he is completely incapable.

    Parent

    Veep Debate (none / 0) (#33)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:52:22 AM EST
    Well we've had a week to chew over Lying in Debates, so one hopes there will less room for Ryan to pull a Romney, lie his azz off and  get away with it.

    Maybe we'll learn most about the WH Debate Prep team and whether Biden will be properly coached to pounce and call out BS as soon as Ryan spouts it....

    Which should be roughly 3 seconds after "Good evening..."

    Hopefully (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:01:36 AM EST
    it will give people (and the Obama campaign) something else to talk about instead of O's poor debate performance and Big Bird.  They need to stop talking about the debate period.  Instead they just reinforce the memory.

    Oy.

    Parent

    Oy indeed (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:18:34 AM EST
    I still don't know how that supports "Obama is a good politician" meme.

    That's Mistake PR 101. You do NOT keep bringing it up, certainly not the way O did "it was boring to keep pointing it out"  WTH?  I'm with Pierce on that one.  It should get your blood up and you should beat it like a rented mule.

    Poor PR, poor politics IMO.  

    Parent

    I know, right? (none / 0) (#50)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:34:58 AM EST
    I've never believed that Obama was a good politician unless the most important political skill was getting the right backers.  And I do not dismiss the importance of that particular ability.  But as for the rest of the necessary skill set: show some of that.  And for crying out loud, change the conversation.

    Parent
    A little perspective (none / 0) (#164)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:05:58 PM EST
    Obama has been kicking ass for the last 3 months, from the fantastic convention to the summer ad campaign in the swing states that boosted Romney's unlikeable numbers to the massive fund raising haul in February that no one saw coming.

    He's been running an A- or B+ campaign at a minimum.

    And then he had a really bad debate.

    Suddenly the debate means the entire campaign has to change and Obama is a horrible politician and . . .  come on.

    That debate loss was huge, but let's not forget that we were up against superior money, high unemployment, continuing wars and a country that doesn't know if things are going to get better soon . . . and the dude is still leading.

    He had a bad night.  He needs to have better debates.  That's it.

    Parent

    Truthfully (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:12:58 PM EST
    ABG, all that stuff while actually being some decent campaign material more or less just kept him even. The convention certainly helped him immensely but that truthfully did not come completely from Obama. Michelle, Bill Clinton, Jennifer Granholm and a host of other good speakers helped jolt Obama with a bounce. Not only that, they helped downticket races too.

    Parent
    "Campaign" (none / 0) (#175)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:23:15 PM EST
    A campaign is far more than speech performances.  It's your ground team, your strategy, your fund raising, the billion emails I get from Team Obama everyday that make me give money just so they will stop, the GOTV projects that they've been working on which are going to be revolutionary from what I hear . . . and it's the debates and it's the speeches and it's how you respond on the fly to issues.

    All of that is the campaign.

    Basically, Obama and his team were performing above average on all of that stuff, one debate, repeat ONE DEBATE, went wrong and now the whole campaign is in trouble and lost it's way and all of that.

    Conversely, Romney's ran an atrocious campaign with gaffes and poor coordination at every turn.  He has ONE good night and suddenly we fear this well oiled machine of Bain Idea Fueled Campaign super power coming out of Boston.  It's an overreaction on both sides. Romney's campaign has been horrible and that one performance shouldn't change the world long term.

    At the end of the day, we mocked Romney because the buck stops with him and he takes the hit for Clint Eastwood. Ditto Obama and the dem convention.  He's the leader of the party.  That was his convention.  Separating him from it as if he just showed up at the end isn't consistent.

    If Obama wins, he deserves the credit and if he loses he deserves the blame. The fact that he seems to have neutralized the GOP PAC money advantage alone is evidence of a well run campaign.

    Parent

    Revolutionary GOTV? (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:34:06 PM EST
    I'll believe that when I see it.

    And haven't you learned that once you give money they're going to come back for more and not stop?

    The problem with the debate was voters saw Obama "unfiltered" which counts for a lot more to voters than some ads. I mean after a while there has to be diminishing returns on all these ads.

    Actually I didn't blame Romney for Eastwood's performance because he did not control that anymore than Obama controlled anyone's performance at the Democratic convention. Clint Eastwood is responsible for his bad performance. Of course the conventions reflect back on the candidate but neither candidate can get all the credit for the convention.

    Parent

    Who CARES... (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:16:57 PM EST
    ... about the last 3 months ABG?  People aren't going to vote on that.  Everything counts at this point in the race and the dynamics are incredibly volatile.  

    If you really want your guy to win you would be more worried.  The dude is not so much leading as squeaking by.  At best he's standing still while Romney is gaining.  If you really want your guy to win, I would suggest that you learn how to do canvassing.

    Parent

    sj (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:26:31 PM EST
    Wait a second, this was supposed to be an easy election where no incumbent has ever won with unemployment this high, where the challenger is backed by more cash for the first time in history, and where the mood of the country is generally pessimistic.

    This is an election Obama is supposed to lose based on every metric we heard from the right for the last 4 years.

    But he's winning.

    And at the same time he's a bad politician with a bad campaign.

    I'm just saying.

    Parent

    You realize he's not my guy, right? (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:32:30 PM EST
    You realize I don't actually have a guy, right?  I'm stuck with whoever wins the election and I'm not going to be happy no matter what.  All your Happy Talk is completely lost on me.

    I see Obama looking worse and worse.  That's my perception.  And in my view, if you really do want your guy to win, you should become part of that ground game and stop just talking about it.

    Parent

    Look, ABG (none / 0) (#211)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 06:24:05 PM EST
    I've refrained from jumping into your thread, cherry picking incidents, and emphasizing "one night, one debate," yadda yadda. But, within degrees, I agree with you. We are, after all, on the same team.

    So, let me give you a scenario that, I think even you will agree with:

    Suppose Babe Ruth, in his 60 home run season, ended up at bat in the ninth inning, of the seventh game of the world series...down by a run, 2 outs. But, The Babe, suffering the "day after" a night of boozing and whoring, and his mind distracted by that blond that slapped him in the face last night,  hits a grounder to deep third. Barely able to stand, and suppressing a yawn, The Babe trots towards first base. The ball goes deep in the hole, and the third baseman, not known for a "cannon" arm has to lunge for the ball, spin around, and throw practically a fly ball to even reach first. Even so, with the Babe waddling, instead of running his ass off, the ball nips Babe at first, and the opposing team wins the World Series.

    You know where I'm going with this, but I'll finish anyhow.

    Would you be trying to convince the millions of Yankee fans, "It's only one game, only one night. Look at all the great things the Babe has done?"

    How many Yankee fans do you think you'd convince?


    Parent

    Hey Hey Hey (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:30:19 AM EST
    Atlas Shrugged II - Dagny finally GETS SOME!

    If the Denver "success" is to be (none / 0) (#49)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:32:19 AM EST
    a guide for future debates, the first lesson is that President Obama and VP Biden need not be concerned about content, misrepresentations, evasions, or flat-out lies. They need to keep in mind that these are debaters who give hypocrisy a bad name.  

    The key is how forcefully it is done and how clever the denials.  When in doubt, just make stuff up.  No compliments or agreements, this election is not six of one and half dozen of the other, more like six of one and 666 of the other.  An exception, might be a faux nod to their bipartisanship  that, it was "heard" that consideration was being given to nominating Barney Frank to the Supreme Court in a Romney administration.  And, save that for the non-rebuttable summary statement, and hope you go last.

    The second lesson is to have post-debate spin, rinse and repeat on high.  Mute the Chris Mathews' et al's apoplectic realization that Obama is no Sluggo---the debate being the highest level of criticism of Obama in four years, when performance alone might be more in proportion to criticism of his necktie.  And, if Biden is good, be ready to tell the electorate what to think.

    You've nailed it, in one phrase (none / 0) (#74)
    by Farmboy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:32:40 PM EST
    "tell the electorate what to think" is exactly what is needed in the Obama campaign.

    Biden needs to come out tonight selling and giving the administration credit for everything that's improved or appears to have improved in the last four years: the growth in GDP, the growth in the stock market, the auto industry turnaround, the lowering unemployment figures, etc. No repeat of Obama's wonkie analysis of facts and figures; that stuff just confuses the issue. Call it Morning in America part II if they must, but tell the electorate what to think.

    Parent

    But also, he needs to engage the opponent. (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:02:55 PM EST
    After watching the debate, I find myself wondering if this guy actually plays basketball.

    Parent
    Diversion from debate, politics: (none / 0) (#76)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:36:58 PM EST
    Just picked up book ordered from interlibrary, vy controversial, written in 80s by David Yarrow called In God's Name, re the suspected murder of Pope John Paul I, that thirty-day pope from 1978.

    Anyone here read it?  

    Apparently he was getting a little too curious about some financial and other corruption inside the Vatican Old Guard bishopry, and so was eliminated by a small high-ranking cabal.

    Recc'd to me by a source itself too controversial to mention here in these lofty pages, yet a source with an outstanding record of credibility.  Haven't started book yet, no opinion thus on how plausible the case made.

    You mean David Yallop? (none / 0) (#85)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:49:53 PM EST
    I'm pretty sure I read that book years ago.  I borrowed it from my Aunt.  I'm not sure if that is the self-same book  that I read, but what it had to say made an impression on me and it made a compelling case to the "me-of-then".  I would probably read it again.

    You don't need to be all apologetic about your sources.  IMO

    Parent

    Right, Yallop. (none / 0) (#141)
    by brodie on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:55:07 PM EST
    Gonna have to continue keeping some of my sources under wraps I'm afraid.  Don't wanna upset folks here, maybe create a flash mob of gun toters in front of my castle.

    Parent
    David Yallop (none / 0) (#101)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:16:29 PM EST
    I read one of his books about the capture Carlos the Jackal in college.

    Parent
    I expect Biden to do well tonight.... (none / 0) (#78)
    by magster on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:37:52 PM EST
    more likely to challenge BS.

    I don't know what to expect (none / 0) (#90)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:57:10 PM EST
    When he's on he's very, very good.  But he can go off-message really easily.

    Of course, right now there really isn't a message so maybe going sideways and actually creating one would be a good thing.

    Parent

    A great American passes (none / 0) (#91)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:57:24 PM EST
    ... and history records that he did it very well. We owe him and men like him a profound debt of gratitude for their service in Vietnam and elsewhere.

    That said, it was a damned shame that he and several thousand of his fellow soldiers were sent on a fool's errand to the Ia Drang Valley by Gen. William Westmoreland back in Nov. 1965. The Battle of Ia Drang was a bloody but inconclusive five-day engagement which marked the formal commencement of active and large-scale U.S. ground combat operations in the Vietnam War, and cost Americans a lot of casualties -- 236 dead, 258 wounded and 4 missing.

    Because Ia Drang ultimately proved to be one of the very few set-piece battles of the Vietnam War, one could argue both plausibly and in painfully obvious retrospect that our own U.S. high command took away the wrong lessons entirely from that first sharp encounter with a determined North Vietnamese Army, which ultimately cost this country very dearly over the long term.

    In large part because American forces had inflicted thousands of causualties on the NVA there, including well over 1,000 dead, Gen. Westmoreland wasted the better part of the next three years with repeated but fruitless attempts to re-create the conditions that brought about that particular engagement in the first place, seeking the type of battle where the U.S. superiority in firepower and equipment could be decisive.

    More ominously, the Battle of Ia Drang caused Westmoreland to both measure and quantify U.S. battlefield success in terms of NVA / VC body counts.

    This was an enormously consequential error on Westmoreland's part, especially in the face of a resolute enemy who was perfectly willing to sustain enormous losses in manpower in order to accomplish his long-term goal of wearing the American people down and compelling our own eventual military withdrawal from Vietnam.

    Meanwhile, for their part, the North Vietnamese command in Hanoi learned from their own bitter experience at Ia Drang that it was generally wise to avoid giving battle to American forces at the dates, times and places of the U.S. command's own choosing, where the overwhelming superiority of U.S. firepower could be brought so readily to bear.

    Further, that battle taught the NVA command that said U.S. firepower could be greatly offset by the willingness of NVA regulars to move directly upon the enemy lines of battle, and actively engage American troops in close-quarter combat.

    By adopting such tactics and accepting the prospect of suffering huge casualties if necessary, NVA soldiers and Viet Cong guerrillas could and did significantly neutralize the U.S. preponderance in air power and mobility, armor and artillery.

    Their hit-and-run tactics of infiltration and enfilation, followed by a prompt withdrawal once the pre-determined objective was attained, tended to focus primarily on U.S. lines of supply and communication, and tried to avoid specific American troop concentrations whenever and wherever possible.

    In so doing, NVA and VC forces were able to lure American troops time and again out of their heavily fortified compounds and into the jungles and mountains, where the U.S. superiority in air power and armor was greatly mitigated if not altogether compromised by the Americans' likelihood of engaging in hand-to-hand combat with the enemy in delta wetlands and mountainous terrain under dense canopies of trees, tall grasses and thick brush.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    PJ Harvey plays it in front of UK PM Cameron (none / 0) (#93)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    And I love how Cameron says he and wifey... (none / 0) (#97)
    by Dadler on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:04:02 PM EST
    ...listened to PJ's new album twice and loved it. A-hole.

    Parent
    Never before seen... (none / 0) (#104)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:26:22 PM EST
    pictures of the Rolling Stones from '65.

    Very cool (none / 0) (#148)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:10:09 PM EST
    Minus the palm trees it looks just like the HoJo's where my mom worked at the time. I'm sure they got the traditional stripe indentations from those pool chairs.

    Parent
    People take (none / 0) (#162)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:01:26 PM EST
    any opportunity to say that Hillary and Bill are light years better than Obama at, well, everything, but there is some truth to BTD's point.

    Bill is better at a mud fight debate.  Hillary? We don't know because she wasn't tested in this way (no what Obama did in the primaries is not to the level of what Obama or any other dem candidate gets from the right).

    This truly is not Obama's strong point, and, if you look back on it, never was.

    My hope, honestly, is that neither he nor Biden lose any more ground.  I think if the election occurs today Obama wins, and the debates can only hurt.  But there is really not much that can be done.  Debates are one place where the GOP candidates are better suited. Particularly because it is easy to win debates if you lie a lot.

    I hope I am wrong.

    Actually (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:17:28 PM EST
    I think if the election was held today Obama would lose but fortunately for you it's not being held today.

    Bill is better in a mud fight because he cut his teeth in a red state and had to run against GOP nuts for governor. This is a DISTINCT advantage Romney has over Obama having run for Governor in MA where he had to convince a lot of left leaning people to vote for him.

    Obama has been skilled at getting opponents to drop out or getting them off the ballot but of course that is not going to work this time. He's never Had to run against a serous GOP candidate.

    At lot of credit to where Obama's numbers are today is because of Paul Begala's PAC who was hammering, hammering Romney all summer long.

    Parent

    Well he did get (none / 0) (#201)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:51:44 PM EST
    Hillary to drop out so he has that going for him.

    Parent
    Except, ... (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Yman on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:54:01 PM EST
    ... he won't have the Rules Committee to help him against Romney.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#203)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:53:26 PM EST
    Too bad he's not running against Hillary.

    Parent
    MA is not a particularly blue state (none / 0) (#205)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:55:17 PM EST
    in terms of Governors-- Mitt was the 4th consecutive GOP governor.

    Parent
    Well, you're definitely (none / 0) (#166)
    by sj on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:08:44 PM EST
    not wrong about this:
    ...it is easy to win debates if you lie a lot.


    Parent
    Biden should use Reagan's line... (none / 0) (#212)
    by unitron on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 06:40:56 PM EST
    ...about his opponent's youth and inexperience.

    Obama needs to start channeling FDR, specifically the "and I welcome their hatred" speech, and he needs to go back and watch the FDR and Truman convention speeches where they burn the GOP a new one.