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Vice Presidential Debate Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2012
Posted on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:47:13 PM EST
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I'm watching the Yankees. You're on your own.

Go Yanks! Go Biden!

Ok, one quick comment on the debate - Biden kicked ass of course. But what really worked was he did it as Joe Biden, the authentic Joe Biden. That's why it really worked.

CBS snap poll - Biden 50-31 winner among Independents (uncommitted voters.).

Sorry CNN, Biden kicked his ass.

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    Vice Presidential Debate Thread | 203 comments (203 topical)
    With all due respect that's a bunch of malarkey (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:09:39 PM EST
    Joementum!

    Biden seems to think he's at the (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:20:28 PM EST
    comedy club he's been doing so much grinning. From the standpoint of it telegraphing how utterly ridiculous Biden thinks Ryan's comments are, it's great, but at some point, it might start coming across as a little unprofessional.

    But good for Biden making no bones about the BS the GOP is trying to shovel at us.

    That's what I kinda of expected from him (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:25:55 PM EST
    But good for Biden making no bones about the BS the GOP is trying to shovel at us.

    And he does know how to lay it down . . .

    Parent

    Great answer Biden (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:32:46 PM EST
    ABout time someone called the BS.

    You listening Obama?

    Parent

    Biden's been hitting (none / 0) (#26)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:35:37 PM EST
    singles and doubles. Glad to see some triples creeping in.

    gotta stay serious, nothing to laugh, or smile about. not phoney, but the old Clinton "feeling our pain."

    Parent

    After I wrote (none / 0) (#16)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:24:51 PM EST
    my prior post fantasizing about my giving Biden advice, I realized my #1 objection to Biden's style: that ear to ear, blinding, Ipana, whiter than white, Cheshire smile.

    like you said, the smile should be salt and pepper, not the centerpiece entre.

    Parent

    Jon Stewart for moderator next time... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by unitron on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:24:13 PM EST
    ...we need someone who won't let either side get away with anything and isn't worried about losing "access".

    Mitt Romney is a car guy (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:27:57 PM EST
    Oh brother

    How about . . . (none / 0) (#36)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:43:04 PM EST
    "the Mitt Romney I know . . ", lol!~

    Parent
    Ha! Yeah, which one is that? (none / 0) (#52)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:58:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Ryan not getting any passes from Biden. (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:30:46 PM EST
    Joe's bringin' the hammer down on Junior.

    Just tuned in! (none / 0) (#23)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:33:04 PM EST
    I'm liking the fire, Ryan deserves every lick!

    Parent
    Ryan is getting schooled (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:34:10 PM EST


    Social Security is not going broke, as Raddatz (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:35:13 PM EST
    said, nor is it going bankrupt as Ryan just said.

    Why is Raddatz so ill-informed? Don't moderators do debate prep?

    Thank you, (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:37:20 PM EST
    Now, let's hear Joe say it.....loud and clear

    Parent
    I flipped back to the Yanks (none / 0) (#31)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:38:13 PM EST
    I just can't handle that discussion anymore. Makes my gut burn . . . that was just too much with Ryan trying to do his honest look while lyin' his a** off. Raddatz needs a smack down on that one.

    Parent
    Cal! (none / 0) (#39)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:45:27 PM EST
    Hope he brings my O's some good mojo!!

    Parent
    1-1 in the 11'th (none / 0) (#104)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:02:57 PM EST
    Here we go again....

    Parent
    Free baseball. (none / 0) (#119)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:28:19 PM EST
    Pretty freak accident with the Yankees pitcher.  

    Was just talking to my Mom, a lifelong O's fan and she's conflicted.  Hates the Yankees, but want Ichiro to get a ring and wants to the O's to win too.  I have no such conflict.  

    Parent

    Hey! She's Martha Radditz, and you're not. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:42:52 PM EST
    Martha don't need no friggin' debate prep. Let Martha be Martha!

    Ryan needs all the help he can get, at this point. He looks like a Little Leaguer facing off against C.C. Sabathia.

    Parent

    Mutha effin' JOE BIDEN!!!! (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:41:56 PM EST
    Just get outta the way.  Stop talking, show me sumthin'

    Poor Ron Wyden. Gets brought into (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:43:03 PM EST
    the Medicare fight by Ryan, just like Romney did. Gotta say, though, I have no sympathy for Wyden. He brought this on himself when he decided to partner with Ryan on a "bipartisan" voucher plan.

    Now, of course, Ron insists that the plan he endorsed is not the same plan Ryan talks about now. What a crock. What's that saying? Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas? I believe that's it. Wat to go, Ron.

    I've got some Frontline Plus (none / 0) (#38)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:44:05 PM EST
    if he needs it :D

    Parent
    Lie down with dogs, wake up ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:51:31 PM EST
    ... covered with dog$H!+.

    Parent
    Insult to dogs (none / 0) (#83)
    by kmblue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:29:33 PM EST
    but I get your drift.

    Parent
    God, Biden has been talking about the record (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:45:44 PM EST
    the whole time, and Ryan pulls out his canned line about not having a record to run on.

    Ryan says this crap like he is used to (5.00 / 7) (#41)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:48:54 PM EST
    being called so brilliant for it. Which of course he is in GOP land.

    I do so love Charlie Pierce (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:29:25 AM EST

    Wait. So if Paul Ryan gets his way, and Medicare as we know it gets eviscerated in favor of a pot full of offal on which Paul Ryan has slapped a label reading "Medicare," and my inadequate health-insurance allowance comes by e-mail, then it's not a "voucher" because it wasn't a check I got in the mail? And this is the issue on which Paul Ryan is supposed to be Genius on roller skates. This was humiliating enough, but when they started talking about war and peace, specifically in Afghanistan, Ryan looked like a toddler trying to cross the Hindu Kush.

    Read the whole thing. Well done!


    Parent

    I don't know Charlie Pierce (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:02:28 AM EST
    from Charlie Brown but this is pretty funny...

    You know what's the difference between Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan?
    Lipstick.

    Parent

    well-spotted (none / 0) (#59)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:02:26 PM EST


    Parent
    All they have (none / 0) (#122)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:35:41 PM EST
    is canned lines.

    Parent
    After Joe's finished chewing up and ... (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:49:18 PM EST
    ... spitting our Paul Ryan, let's send him after Mitt Romney next Tuesday in lieu of Obama.

    Funny (none / 0) (#123)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:38:10 PM EST
    Earlier today the thought of letting Bill Clinton pinch hit for Obama flashed through my mind.

    Relieving tension with fantasy.

    Parent

    Joe Biden - turning age into a strength (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:51:58 PM EST
    making PX90 look a little silly no?

    Judging from those pictures (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:08:11 PM EST
    out today, its looks like he does lots of curls and not much else.  I'll bet the P90X is as real as his mountain climbing prowess.  

    Parent
    There really is a P90X group of (none / 0) (#76)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:18:14 PM EST
    members of Congress. They work out together in the Congressional gym which has been retrofitted to accommodate the P90X workout routine.

    Young Aaron Schock, Republican representative for the IL-18, and his six-pack, were featured on the cover of Men's Health. He and Ryan and a couple dozen more congressmen, I haven't heard of any women joining in, for the workout group.

    Why they have even had Tony Horton, creator of P90X, drop by to workout with the congressmen.

    Now it is entirely possible that Ryan only shows up for the photo ops.

    Parent

    I don't believe a word (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:34:49 PM EST
    that comes out of that lying liar's mouth.  

    Parent
    I don't either, but Men's Health profiled the (none / 0) (#93)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:40:03 PM EST
    workout and its congressional fans. Now, it is entirely possible that Ryan only shows up for the photo ops.

    Ryan doesn't look out of shape, but he also does not looked all that buff. If you want a buff congressmen, a P90X devotee, check out the six-pack on GOP Congressman Aaron Schock. He is the congressman from my childhood congressional district. According to family still living there, the abs are the only impressive thing about young Aaron.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#120)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:29:03 PM EST
    the abs are the only impressive thing about young Aaron.

    Why am I not surprised about that.

    Parent

    Abs are easier (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:45:49 PM EST
    to cultivate than brains...

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#141)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53:09 PM EST
    Not nearly as complicated as constructing good public policy.

    Parent
    If you can convince (none / 0) (#142)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 12:11:20 AM EST
    people to vote for you based on your fairy tale marathon time and mountain climbing there is no need to push policy that helps the nation. All you have to do is wave blank pages and say you have a plan.

    Parent
    I'm almost feeling sorry for Paul Ryan. (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:55:14 PM EST
    Emphasis on the word "almost."

    Yeah, (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:59:14 PM EST
    except for when he said it;s OK to take away my social security because I am not 50 yet.

    Parent
    EXCEPT.... (5.00 / 4) (#204)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:54:11 AM EST
    ...that he received Social Security after his dad passed away and be banked it to pay out-of-state tuition.

    As far as hypocrites go, Ryan is the master.

    Parent

    Well, he IS at a severe disadvantage (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:00:42 PM EST
    what with being wrong about everything and all.

    Parent
    Biden taking over (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:57:26 PM EST
    Fierce defense of middle class.

    Interrupt Romney like (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:02:06 PM EST
    that when he lies and Romney will flip out.

    Parent
    That I'd like to see. (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:06:24 PM EST
    I have a feeling it would really rip the mask off.

    Parent
    That is how it is done (none / 0) (#51)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:58:32 PM EST


    Parent
    Sorry Martha, you are wrong (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:57:53 PM EST
    This  country does not consider lives to be more important than dollars.

    I can't watch any more (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:59:14 PM EST
    Raddatz asks Ryan if he has any specifics regarding how to offset Romney's proposed massive tax cuts for the 1%.

    Ryan actually says he'll reach out to Democrats and reach a bi-partisan agreement....like Tip O'Neill and Reagan.

    Crickets from Raddatz (and Joe)

    The last six years, and the Tea party, didn't happen.

    I think if Biden had been drinking coffee (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:00:08 PM EST
    Radditz would be soaking right now.

    Parent
    There were not crickets from Joe on that (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:02:34 PM EST


    Parent
    Ryan used "bi-partisan cooperation" (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:12:00 PM EST
    like the Tea Party and Romney invented it.

    Where was the response that the R's pledged a blood oath to do everything in their power, together with the billions of 1% dollars, to destroy any attempt by the Obama administration to improve the economy?


    Parent

    Kept wishing Biden would explain to (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:16:22 PM EST
    Martha that the Republican definition of "bipartisan" is "doing it our way."

    Parent
    That's why I said (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:30:17 PM EST
    if the moderators aren't up to the job, Biden should have stepped up, and done it for her.

    And, my caveat was, "but, not with full-faced smiley faces."

    That's all the channels are talking about... in my unscientific channel surfing survey. Even, usually reliable left leaning "pundits" are making it an issue.

    This is what I keep saying, if so many of us on TL "get it," what are O's advisors getting paid for?

    Parent

    Has anyone taken over (none / 0) (#126)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:46:09 PM EST
    the moderator when they haven't been up to the job?

    What I saw (when I watched) was Biden making note and inserting comments and making sure to get 'give back time'. But how would it have come off if he had called her out too much on a couple of things (the bankrupt MC/SS comse to mind) while she was dishing the BS questions?

    Parent

    Yeah, it could be touchy (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by NYShooter on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 04:48:27 AM EST
    but letting bald faced lies-for-answers, and no follow up just leaves one so frustrated. I mean, does the moderator actually want answers, or does she just want to 'check off, "o.k. asked about tax plan.......no answer......next."

    Joe is deft enough to slip in and say something like, "Martha, you asked a question. Don't you want an answer?"

    Parent

    Ryan has no standing to comment ... (5.00 / 6) (#57)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:01:59 PM EST
    ... on the state of the U.S. military. He simply repeated the Romney canard that the U.S. Navy will be at its smallest since before the First World War. That's simply not true.

    If Ryan can't separate his public life from (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:16:24 PM EST
    his faith, how can he run with a Mormon? Does he also think Jesus came to America?

    His faith does not prevent him from lying, I see (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:17:43 PM EST


    Parent
    Lying for the Lord (none / 0) (#94)
    by sallywally on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:46 PM EST
    A tried and true Mormon practice he has adopted.

    Parent
    Radditz winds up with (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by DFLer on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:16:31 PM EST
    a religious question. I hate this

    Martha asked a Catholic question. (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:18:18 PM EST
    Ryan: "My faith informs me how to take care of our most vulnerable."

    Given the budget he introduced into Congress, it's pretty clear that Ryan worships at the altar of Ayn Rand.

    I'd like to see the Nuns on the Bus (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:54 PM EST
    have a go at Mr. Ryan...he might be better informed on the Catholicism he seems to see as a tool that justifies his penchant for repression, denial and deprivation.  For others, of course, not for himself.

    Parent
    If R/R is elected (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:21:17 PM EST
    we definitely should be worried about women's reproductive rights.

    Biden very seriously addresses this.

    Joe questions whether R/R has the conviction (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:24:25 PM EST
    to really help the middle class.

    Well done.

    Oh, Martha, Martha, Martha. (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:25:14 PM EST
    With that last querstion about the toneof the campaign, she just served notice that she intends to challenge Mrs. Alan Greenspan for the title of "Our Lady of False Equivalency."

    The 'tone of the campaign' (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:08:42 PM EST
    is, IMO, at least partly the fault of the media.  

    If the media actually attempted to inform its audience instead of sticking to the balance and false equivalence policy, Conservatives wouldn't be able to get away with so much bullcrap; they'd have to moderate in deed as well as word.  I seriously doubt Conservative ideologues would dominate the GOP without the passive acceptance of the media.

    Parent

    Ryan closes with a prepared speech that (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:26:27 PM EST
    In no way answers the question.

    I see on twitter that A-Rod just struck out again (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:31:34 PM EST
    So which is it- does he not want to be there, or just lazy? Altitude maybe?

    I got it - he did his playoff preparation (none / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:06:47 AM EST
    against the Cubs!

    Parent
    Well, whatever advantage Romney built ... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:31:46 PM EST
    ... last week, just got demolished tonight. Paul Ryan was roadkill, and Romney got splattered with the residue.

    Joe....good close. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:32:21 PM EST


    Saying anything (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:32:23 PM EST
    or making any statement like "archaic religion" would be suicide in any political campaign.

    I wish Obamacare was a government (5.00 / 9) (#88)
    by caseyOR on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:32:31 PM EST
    takeover of health care instead of a boondoggle for health insurance corporations.

    I know that (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:38:04 PM EST
    we're not on stage but it seems to me that keeping abreast of public policy as so many do who comment here and familiarization with GOP policy and record as so many do who comment here, it shouldn't be difficult to strip the bark off any Republican in any debate.

    Main thing I am remembering is how (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:54:25 PM EST
    gleeful tea partiers were at the prospect of their dreamy Ryan wiping the floor with the 'buffoon' Biden. I think Biden did what I hoped he would, which was dispel that myth. Glad to see it.

    me too n/t (none / 0) (#134)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:15:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Since I mentioned (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:08:32 PM EST
    being  badas* motherf*cker on a differert thread today, about 3/4 way in I was thinking Biden is not just a good natured guy, he is a serious person who can be intimidating because he knows his stuff and will fight.....

    At the end, the opinion meter showed men rating Biden consistently highly no matter what he said--because he was dominating.

    But Biden scored on abortion with women, according to the meter.

    He was clearly confident and can speak (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:17:22 PM EST
    off the top of his head. That has always been a strength of his, whether you agree with him or not. He had several little quick spontaneous zingers. I liked the one about the church doctrine, and also the 'So now you're Jack Kennedy!'.

    Parent
    That cracked me up (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:26:18 PM EST
    'So now you're Jack Kennedy!'

    Even though Ryan isn't a newbie to politics, he wasn't anywhere near a match to Biden. I think they are driven by different reasons (obviously?), and Biden is sharp and has a few laps on Ryan.

    Parent

    Not a newbie but (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:33:24 AM EST
    like someone else we know, used to adulations from like-minded in his party and audiences; doesn't prepare you for one-on-one debate with the opposition.

    I hope Biden is on all the Sun. a.m. talk shows this weekend.  But will the admin follow Biden's prescriptions or default to CAT Commission stances on SS, Medicare, etc.?

    Parent

    He (none / 0) (#150)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 04:52:06 AM EST
    recycled the "You're no Jack Kennedy" zinger aimed at Quayle.

    It worked then, a few decades ago, so he gave it another shot.

    Love recycled Ba-rump-bumps.
    Worked for Berle.

    Parent

    It did not come off that way in the heat (none / 0) (#154)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 05:54:18 AM EST
    of the moment, to me anyway, though of course I am very familiar with the Bentson line.

    Parent
    I just really, really (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:20:09 PM EST
    hope he stopped the hemorrhage inflicted last week.

    So, here we are: Bill showed him the way; Biden said, "ditto."

    Was The President listening? More importantly, did he "hear?"


    Parent

    The first time Ryan lied (about Libya security)... (5.00 / 3) (#116)
    by magster on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:20:03 PM EST
    ... right at the beginning of the debate and I yelled at the TV set "but Ryan cut funding for embassy security" then Biden said the same thing 5 seconds later, I raised my arms in victory and knew this debate was going to be different.

    So nice to see the Dems fighting.

    And, (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:45:26 PM EST
     he should have grabbed control by following with, "just like you guys want to do with veteran programs, jobs programs, education programs, environmental programs." Anything that improves the lives of the middle class, you guys want to cut."

    Or, when Ryan gave us that canned sob story of being at an unemployed, middle class family's home recently. (The tears were welling up)

    So, who brought out that firing employees was the primary, and usually first, weapon Bain Capital used to increase "shareholder value?" 99% lose, 1% win. And, what he did with Bain, he wants to do with America."

    All I'm saying is that obama has my life, my children's, and grandchildren's lives in his hands. And, like most of us here, i want him to fight for them like a hyena does for its cubs over a fresh kill.

    Parent

    Paul Ryan came across (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:08:39 PM EST
    as running for vice president of student council--of middle-school.   He got lost inn Afghanistan, could find himself in his own budget, and is, now, anti-abortion except in the case of rape, incest or mother's health.  Although, in so doing he gained Mitten's new and improved position but lost his consistency.  After all, rape (forcible and legitimate, apparently included), incest or mother's health creates "beans", too.  Ryan's "your under duress" more than matched Biden's smiles for being obsequious.  Final test: in the case that the vice president would have to suddenly assume the presidency, which one would be better, Biden or Ryan?  

    Oh D@mn! (none / 0) (#137)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:22:34 PM EST
    He changed his rape stance?! I'm betting that was at the point I had teevee on mute (Yanks game moment) and was talking to Mom via phone about Ryan and his extreme rape stance :P Oh well, at least he has a history of preaching what Mom isn't down with . . . .

    Parent
    Here's a clip of Obama (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:52:54 PM EST
    today at the University of Miami. Lots of college students in the crowd from both Miami and FIU. He really was on a roll today.

    I saw this earlier (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by lilburro on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 12:36:58 AM EST
    and it is fantastic.  I think the first three or so minutes can't translate to a debate, but the last 30 seconds can.  

    The article from a few months ago about Obama being an introvert I think has a lot of truth to it (and is more valuable moving forward than armchair psychoanalysis, interesting as it may be).  I think he is someone who presents himself seriously and conservatively (personally, not politically) to the outside world in general, particularly in intimate environments like a debate.  He seems to present his conviction best when pressed, and he does that in the last 30 seconds.  I thought some of Joe's best moments tonight were coming from a non-speculative, "I've been there, I made those decisions" incumbent position on foreign policy.  If Obama combines his Presidential tone with that kind of (highly compatible) passion he'll get it done in the next debates.  The last two years they've been going with a sucker the GOP in strategy - the debt ceiling stands as the best example of that.  Sacrificing a whole debate to suckering in is probably not a great strategy (or obviously not).  Hopefully we get full scale counterpunch Obama in the next 2 debates.

    Parent

    Also I saw shades of Gov. Granholm (none / 0) (#145)
    by lilburro on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 12:39:29 AM EST
    in that clip.  Surely some of the success of the DNC  convention was the willingness to tout success.  The success has accelerated recently, I hope he carries it through.  If anything my impression was that Obama spent the first debate seriously pondering problems in a second term, instead of fighting for the vision his first put in place.  Fix it.

    Parent
    Yeah, (none / 0) (#156)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 06:57:29 AM EST
    that's why I was saying in an earlier thread that I hope he doesn't over-prepare for the next debate or worry about debate optics too much. He shines when he's just his natural self.

    Parent
    At (5.00 / 3) (#159)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 07:34:54 AM EST
    this point, I don't know what his natural self is.

    Parent
    Funniest tweet (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 06:41:34 AM EST
    I saw on facebook:

    Hello 9-11 there's an old man beating up my child on TV. It's Paul Ryan's mother calling. LOL.

    Why is there a wine tasting here during every (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:36:00 AM EST
    debate?  They were doing wines for Autumn so I had to go but got home in time to watch the debate.  I thought Biden did very very well.

    This morning I watched Morning Joe with spouse as usual, had to work very hard to not hurt the television.  Had to remind myself that I watch Morning Joe usually for opposition research purposes.

    When things looked really bad for Mitt Romney, Joe Scarborough and his laughing hack buddies seemed almost sane. I forgot who they were for a minute.

    Did you know that when you are debating and your opponent is pulling stuff out of his a$$ and selling it as facts that we are all supposed to have manners that would make our deaf senile granny proud of us?  And have these guys ever attended debate competitions?

    I understand that Presidential debates are supposed to be more civilized.  But when the debate hinges on our very lives, it is a crime to not speak out and say you speak dishonestly and your "facts" are not facts.

    It is shameful that the "press" can only talk about rude Joe today when the lives and livelihoods of the people of this nation are struggling this hard.  It is shameful that Romney/Ryan are selling the same crap that destroyed our economy and we must all be on our best behavior listening to the new sales pitch.

    The talking point of the day is manners?  The Republican Party killed disabled children during George Bush's presidency because it is illegal for me to go down to the Tricare office and grab someone by their shirt collar.  This manners business has killed children and it is still killing some adults or you are dying without dignity and leaving your family's finances in a shambles like my cousin with cancer is.  MANNERS? .....phuck manners, these days it only allows the power structure to kill people softly

    Right. When a Dem gets assertive (5.00 / 3) (#175)
    by brodie on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:27:21 AM EST
    the usual MSMers call it rude.  When a Repub does essentially the same thing the MSM calls it showing leadership and being presidential.

    Sanity was restored briefly this morning when Gov Strickland pointed out to the lazy Chuck Todd that those whining today about Biden's style are the same ones who applauded Romney's interrupting style.

    And I thought I even heard meek sidekick Mika chime in briefly to applaud Biden's performance.  

    So there's hope, but so far, including NPR, the Corp Media is spinning a clear Biden win as a draw.  And as usual the Dems seem slightly tardy in helping close the deal -- that or they are intentionally being underrepresented by the media.

    Parent

    It seems as though you're right, (5.00 / 4) (#183)
    by Zorba on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:43:48 AM EST
    brodie.  It resembles what tends to happen to women in powerful positions in either politics or business.  If they are assertive, they are called worse than "rude" (usually, a word that rhymes with "witch").  But an assertive man is a forceful leader, and admired.
    I don't know quite where I'm going with this, but similar dynamics would seem to be in play.   ;-)

    Parent
    Way to bully, stigmatize the opponent (none / 0) (#189)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:55:54 AM EST
    more often used against assertive females, but the strategy came in handy for Repub talking heads last night and today.

    Parent
    I cannot watch the press this am, but that sounds (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:49:59 AM EST
    about what I would expect judging form what I hear conservatives saying here in the office. Biden was about 2/3 as hyper-aggressive as Romney, yet he is being called rude and Romney was being called the one that was acting presidential.  

    That liberal media...so predictable.

    Parent

    Woman at VP Debate Calls Obama a Commie, (5.00 / 2) (#179)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:33:41 AM EST
    but can't explain what a communist is.

    Yes, Virginia, they really are that stupid. (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:34:14 AM EST


    Parent
    Intelligent Republican voter? (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:05:12 AM EST


    Parent
    Also very proud of Biden taking on the (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:40:09 AM EST
    Afghanistan issue with Sub3 Dumbbell Curl. Yes, some Generals advised it was risky to pull the surge troops out before fight season was over.  It is their job to advise the President on military risks...duh.  It is the President's job to listen to all of his advisors and then make the final call.....duh.

    The call was made, and Joe Biden can't say, "Look Dumbbell, fight season is now over and the fighters are going home before they get snowed in and can't go home so the President was right."

    He can't say that, because if one little thing snaps in Afghanistan the press will go insane on him.

    So I'll say it, the President was right.  Afghanistan forces are being stood up and when they kept attacking our troops because they were allowing the Taliban in our President and NATO did the right thing and handed them their whole country and stepped back even faster.  Our troops are in the position of being trainers and observers now. It is still dangerous for them too but isn't it always?  Isn't that a soldiers reality?  They do dangerous things.  And they aren't in a meat grinder like say what Dubya did to them in Iraq either.

    THE PRESIDENT MADE THE CORRECT MILITARY CALL AGAIN !

    But you have to admit Ryan as a future as (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:51:22 AM EST
    a weatherman.

    Parent
    Wet (none / 0) (#192)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:03:26 AM EST
    and windy.

    Parent
    Since I am not all that worried about Obama losing (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:23:03 AM EST
    the election, I am starting to get interested on how Ryan's debate performance affected his re-election campaign in Wisconsin. Looking forward to some polling on that!

    Me too (none / 0) (#201)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:30:32 AM EST
    His opponent is sharp and if he represents his constituents the same way he talks, I could be smitten.  I want to know more about that guy too.  

    Parent
    Draw (4.00 / 3) (#168)
    by Slado on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:46:29 AM EST
    Both sides got what they want and both candidates landed pretty good blows.

    Ryan wasn't as aggressive but Biden overplayed his hand.

    If you listened to the debate Biden won.   If you watched Ryan did purely on performance.

    Ryan could have done much better in exposing Bidens rudness but that also could have backfired.  

    The one huge blunder was Biden's comments on Lybia.  Really Joe, nobody asked for security?

    If anything comes out of the debate and lasts past the next debate it will be that.

    Lybia isn't going away and now 1 month after an ambassador was killed this administration still can't get their story straight.

    Oh my (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by DFLer on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:58:03 AM EST
    Rudeness in the defense of liberty is no vice.

    Parent
    And you're still predictable (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:58:16 AM EST


    Parent
    Sorry Charlie (5.00 / 3) (#172)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:09:57 AM EST
    But Biden won the indies, see ya.  And the undecideds, I don't even know what to make of the pool of people that make up that group at this point.  They must stand in front of the sock drawer staring into it depths for 15 minutes every morning.

    Parent
    Not sure what polls you're looking at (2.33 / 3) (#176)
    by Slado on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:31:25 AM EST
    But there are mixed results = DRAW

    Both sides think their side won.   That means this debate means nothing.

    Look at the comments at Huff after my link.   A non partisan realizes Joe laid it on a little thick.   Nothing is going to make up for Denver no matter how hard you try.

    The only real thing that came out of it was Biden's stupid Libya comment.

    Obamabots will make up reasons to make this a non story but those are just partisan excuses.   Obama and Co. need to get their story straight and stop making excuses or this will drag out until election day.

    Parent

    You do know that CNN has admitted now to (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:53:34 AM EST
    oversampling Republicans by something like 8 pts on this?  Right?  I hate polls.  I can't stand how many effing polls I have to look at during this election, but a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do.

    Parent
    Hmmm (3.50 / 2) (#202)
    by Slado on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:31:50 AM EST
    You can spin this however you want but the simple fact is this debate was a draw.

    Biden made you happy.  Ryan made his base happy.

    I was disappointed Ryan wasn't more aggressive but also thought Biden came off poorly.

    If you want to think Biden won then you can think that.   That's what happens in a debate that's a draw.  Both sides think they won.

    Parent

    The CBS poll of undecideds (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:06:51 AM EST
    show a decisive Biden win.

    Parent
    The sweetest tears of all (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Farmboy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:13:43 AM EST
    are the tears spilled by GOP apologists.

    Both sides did not get what they wanted. Ryan was exposed as an uninformed, unprepared prevaricator. That sort of reveal doesn't say much about his self-promoted "boy genius" moniker. Maybe he should have spent more time studying the issues instead of posing in the gym.

    As for rudeness, Biden wasn't rude. Rude would have been to point out that Ryan went boom-boom in his pants on national TV. Instead he just let the Congressman know that he'd be better off focusing on his re-eleciton in Wisconsin.

    Oh, and it's spelled Libya. The more you know...

    Parent

    Baa waa waa (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:26:41 AM EST
    judging by the GOP freak out today and the snap polls I would say you are totally off base. Any gains that Romney made last week might be erased by Ryan's performance last night.

    Too bad Romney picked a tea party nut for his VP who also voted 100% with George W. Bush as a congressman. The silly twerp even made an agreement with the moderator to not call him "congressman" He's trying to etch a sketch away his entire voting record in congress. At least Romney can get away with that stuff because he does have somewhat of a moderate record as Gov. of Mass. but not Ryan. Ryan has signed onto some of the most radical legislation I have ever seen come out of congress.

    Parent

    Wishful thinkgin (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Slado on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:32:50 AM EST
    Nothing is going to gloss over the disaster that was Denver.

    Throw on top the Libya gaff.

    Nothing changed till the next debate.   Obama is going to have to do something for himself for a change.

    Parent

    The extreme abortion position (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by MKS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:08:30 AM EST
    of the right winger Republicans was exposed.

    Parent
    The Libya (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:19:26 AM EST
    thing only plays to the far right. If the GOP was really serious about it, they would take the Clown Posse off patrol and put somebody else to "investigate". So that is going to get NO traction until Issa the clown is not following the case. We've been here before with the GOP and their "investigations" and they become nothing but a three ring circus.

    Parent
    However, the economy is (none / 0) (#182)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:41:45 AM EST
    preeminent in voters' minds and they are far less interested in foreign policy at the moment.

    Parent
    Credentials. (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:09:36 AM EST
    Too bad Romney picked a tea party nut for his VP who also voted 100% with George W. Bush as a congressman.

    Guess what:

    "The only bills that I voted for, for the most part, uh, since I've been in the Senate were introduced by Republicans or George Bush."
    - Barack Obama 2008

    Link

    Parent

    You realize of course (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:20:40 AM EST
    that for his first two years in the Senate there was not a single Dem bill to ever vote on right?

    Parent
    Drinking game.... (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:51:05 PM EST
    Ryan reminding us Biden said the middle class was buried.

    Biden...hmm, he is a lot more unpredictable.

    I'll be watching the Oakland A's. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:00:05 PM EST
    Last night's ninth-inning comeback over Detroit was something to behold, even for a team that already had 14 walk-off victories to its credit.

    Cinderella has taken up residence on the left coast.

    Verlander (none / 0) (#139)
    by cal1942 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:49:57 PM EST
    WOW.

    Great Detroit win.  Almost given up for dead in July.

    Stellar complete game for Verlander just like the old days.

    Parent

    Pretty sure... (none / 0) (#4)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:06:45 PM EST
    it is his "archaic religion" too.

    Ooh, Biden smells a lie.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:07:13 PM EST


    1st (none / 0) (#6)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:08:21 PM EST
    impression: Biden put me off right away.

    He was asked whether what happened in Libya was an intelligence failure. Instead of answering the question, he made a prepaid speech that roamed all over the place.

    Then comes Ryan. He doesn't seem to be aware of what the question was. He makes a canned speech instead.

    I have a sinking feeling.

    Exactly what I stated (none / 0) (#11)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:18:07 PM EST
    in a prior post.

    Raddatz asks Ryan about Romney's inappropriate digs at Obama before anyone knew anything about the consulate attack, He says something equivalent to "America is the greatest country on earth."

    Raddatz moves on to next question.

    I said, if the moderator won't do her job, then Biden has to step in and do it for her.

    Abominable!


    Parent

    I thought he sounded (none / 0) (#47)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:54:07 PM EST
    extremely responsible,saying that they would be getting to the bottom of this.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#61)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:03:00 PM EST
    he didn't answer the question.

    Was there a failure in intelligence?

    Get to the bottom of what?

    Parent

    He said the intelligence was wrong (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:05:54 PM EST
    at the beginning. I don't blame him for not using her word 'failure'.

    Parent
    No.. (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 05:02:47 AM EST
    Actually, he did not say that "the intelligence was wrong."

    He said that that the attack was a "tragedy".

    The closest he came is, "whatever mistakes were made, will not be made again".

    But it was a massive failure of intelligence.

    Parent

    Did he not say that that the information the (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:09:10 AM EST
    intelligence community gave the administration at first turned out to be wrong? Maybe we are just talking semantics, but that was what I heard. I will find the transcript later.

    Parent
    I expect such things to happen... (5.00 / 3) (#167)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:39:06 AM EST
    it's a f*cked up violent unjust world with no shortage of murder. I kinda worry about calling it a failure of intelligence, cuz that means we expect the government to be spying all up in everybody's business all over the world at all times, to police the world, dominate the world.  Not such a wonderful world, imo.

    It's what gets us in trouble in the first place, our "intelligence"...it ain't making the world safer, if anything it only adds to the peril.  At least how our intelligence apparatus has done it for over 50 years...we've made more new enemies than new friends.

    Parent

    After (none / 0) (#184)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:45:24 AM EST
    the WMD b.s., I have come to think of our intelligence as being not too bright.

    Parent
    If budget cuts are in order... (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by kdog on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:00:44 AM EST
    CIA should be near the very top of the hatchet list, #2 right behind the DEA which should be disbanded outright.

    Parent
    Uh oh. (none / 0) (#8)
    by lentinel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:10:41 PM EST
    Biden is on the attack.

    Ryan is sitting there with the weirdest closed-mouth smile.

    Not like Romney's weird smile, (none / 0) (#9)
    by sallywally on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:14:56 PM EST
    is it? I can't watch it.

    Parent
    Its muppet weird. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Thanin on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 12:48:12 AM EST


    Parent
    Ryan makes no sense to me on Iran (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:15:13 PM EST


    Yes Ryan, I'm sure the ayatollah's see the world (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:19:21 PM EST
    Like 5th graders, just like you do.

    Biden is good on this response.

    Parent

    what is it with democrats these days? (none / 0) (#14)
    by ZtoA on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:20:55 PM EST
    very annoying.  the snide laughs and ridicule smiles. Yes style counts. That is how Obams got elected - yes, style. So they should know better. Who does their debate prep? So many people who are not 'high info' voters are tuning in so they are not in on the jokey inside jokes.

    When Biden is talking he is doing great though (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:27:01 PM EST
    If that continues I'll forgive the occasional grin

    Parent
    grins yes, smirks no (none / 0) (#20)
    by ZtoA on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:30:00 PM EST
    should know better

    Parent
    I think he is displaying remarkable (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:35:43 PM EST
    self control all things considered.

    Parent
    Just nearly spit up my coffee (none / 0) (#165)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:32:18 AM EST
    More Charlie Pierce:

    Joe Biden laughed at him? Of course, he did. The only other option was to hand him a participation ribbon and take him to Burger King for lunch.


    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#28)
    by ZtoA on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:36:46 PM EST
    Biden doing better. but STOP smirking....

    Parent
    He seems very aware of the camera (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by nycstray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:41:00 PM EST
    and enjoying his time while not talking. I think he may get away with more than others doing this. Maybe because he does come back with some solid 'I don't think so' smack down on the BS statements?

    Parent
    That's true n/t (none / 0) (#37)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:43:46 PM EST


    Parent
    Those bleached teeth (none / 0) (#30)
    by smott on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:37:42 PM EST
    MAke it so much worse!!

    Parent
    Gee (none / 0) (#43)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:50:29 PM EST
    Who is winning?

    Joe Biden (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 08:53:16 PM EST
    Yanks are tied.

    Parent
    Good prediction (none / 0) (#143)
    by CoralGables on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 12:19:22 AM EST
    you went two for two on this one. Biden wins and the Yanks are still tied (in games this time) and headed to tomorrow.

    Parent
    I like that Biden takes issue with the premises (none / 0) (#62)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:04:16 PM EST
    of  the questions when she phrases them broadly or simplistically.

    Debate clinic here.

    I also notice that Radditz does not seem to (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:09:05 PM EST
    address her questions to anyone in particular and Biden just jumps right in.

    Parent
    Well, like they say, ... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:12:53 PM EST
    ... nature abhors a vaccuum.

    Parent
    and Biden abhors a nanosecond of silence! (none / 0) (#101)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:55:49 PM EST


    Parent
    Biden-Ryan is the biggest mismatch ... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:05:47 PM EST
    ... since the Florida Gators opened at home with Charleston Southern back in 2009.

    (my apologies up front) (none / 0) (#98)
    by CoralGables on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:53:24 PM EST
    I thought you were going to say since the Florida Gators opened against Hawaii, but you're right that one was a year earlier in 2008.

    Parent
    That was a mismatch, too. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:06:48 PM EST
    But then, Colt Brennan and his receiving corps had all graduated, and Coach June Jones left the islands to sign on with SMU, so the 2008 version was a vastly different Warrior team.

    Hawaii also played (and crushed) Charleston Southern in 2007, but that's only because Michigan State reneged on its contract with UH in January of that year and refused to play the back end of the home-and-home as scheduled for Honolulu, two years after the Warriors had traveled to East Lansing to play the Spartans.

    UH was left scrambling to fill the slot, which was difficult since the Michigan Wolverines had also cancelled its home opener with Hawaii one month earlier in order to play Appalachian State, so the Warriors had two immediate vacancies in their 2007 schedule. The other hole was filled with Northern Colorado.

    Parent

    Biden making Ryan look Palin-esque (none / 0) (#66)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:07:21 PM EST
    on Afghan policy.

    Check out the Twitter feeds. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:11:36 PM EST
    The conservative pundits are pretty much concluding that Ryan is getting his skivvies wedged by the vice president, and for that they're blaming -- (drum roll, please) -- Martha Radditz.

    All three of them are (none / 0) (#74)
    by fishcamp on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:16:56 PM EST
    getting tired and so am I.  Joe isn't quite as smily and Paul is sagging.  I'm going back to simple ball games.

    Ryan you're policies are jot proven to work (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:28:53 PM EST
    That is just not true.

    Spritzer thinks it is a draw? I give up. (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:34:06 PM EST


    Yes, what was with Spitzer? (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by KeysDan on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:50:58 AM EST
    After saying it was a draw, he proceeded to agree with everything Governor Granholm and Cenk said, in disagreement with him.  And, for the 'its a draw' people", what did Ryan say that made it so?  His content?  hardly.  His clarity?  pretty cloudy?  His facts? perhaps the occasional correct one.   His style? Wisconsin deer in the headlights look more in tune.   And, he walked right into Biden's capturing the debate with Ryan's  little story about a car crash, giving Biden the opportunity to say he knows car crash tragedy, and remind viewer of his own tragic story of the death of his wife, little girl, and the severe injuries sustained by his two boys.

    And, about the smiles:  Why should Biden treat Ryan gingerly?  He is young, but he is armed and dangerous.  He has been a US Congressman for 12 years, he made the entire House Republicans adopt and run on his extremist agenda, and he is trying to replace Biden as vice president, his budget is cruel to the middle class and even worse for the poor; he is Todd Akin's better spoken twin on women's health.   No, this right wing think tank protege needs to be unmasked for the fraud he is.

    Parent

    Last comment (none / 0) (#92)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:39:25 PM EST
    Who won the debate?

    Asked, and answered. Wolf calls it a draw. (fool)

    However, "who won?" is the wrong question. "Who won" the target audience is the question. Most of us, having made up our minds a while ago, it doesn't matter who we think "won."

    And, since I'm not conversant in the mechanics, I'm done for tonight. Interested to listen, just not to comment.

    Blitzer called that a "draw"? (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:47:04 PM EST
    Christ, I see a likely candidate to serve as an NFL replacement ref the next time there's a lockout of officials.

    Parent
    This is why I refused to watch a network (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by Anne on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:11:08 PM EST
    broadcast - I went with CSPAN, and bailed on the "call-in" that followed.

    You realize that twits like Blitzer don't want this shifting back to Obama/Biden, because they want to sell this thing as a neck-and-neck, down-to-the-wire race: it's good for ratings, and justifies their perception of themselves as important.

    Maybe someday these yahoos will care more about whether the American people win than they do about their own craven interests.

    And maybe someday I will win the lottery, right?

    Parent

    CBS poll of independents (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:12:05 PM EST
    has Biden wiping out Ryan.

    Parent
    it's getting really exciting (none / 0) (#133)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:14:17 PM EST
    just like the yanks/Orioles playoff. After last night's "O" nightmare, they come back, in yankee Stadium, and win, in xtra innings, no less.

    Pretty much defines the saying, "it doesn't get any better than this."

    Parent

    Yes, you have to define 'win' (none / 0) (#95)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:47 PM EST
    There are many levels : rally the base, win over new people, etc. and which is more important?

    After last week it seems that 'win' might just mean not having people call you a lazy, disinterested loser all week.

    So I don't use the word win for these things. There is no clear prize.

    Parent

    The winner (none / 0) (#99)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 09:53:32 PM EST
    is whoever CNN's insane snap poll declares him to be.  I think it will be Biden though.  According to dailykos Biden has been rocking HuffPo snap polls all night, and I think he really sealed it with Afghanistan and pro-choice issues.

    I cannot even believe some of the things Ryan said about foreign policy.  We're magically going to "go in there" and help Syria?  What world are they living in?  How is it so resistant to reality?

    Parent

    The abortion discussion (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:01:19 PM EST
    by Paul Ryan scored very low on that meter.  That was good to see.

    Parent
    One big takeaway- R/R got put back in the (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:08:15 PM EST
    'Severe conservative' box where they belong.

    Parent
    True, no (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:11:16 PM EST
    moderate spin.

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    Yup. Does Mitt have one more shake of the (none / 0) (#112)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:12:36 PM EST
    Etch a sketch left in him? I feel sure.

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    CBS Snap poll (5.00 / 4) (#103)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:02:35 PM EST
    Biden 50, Ryan 31.

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    I'm not disputing that. (none / 0) (#113)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:13:56 PM EST
    My question is, were any votes changed? Did any "undecideds" decide tonight?

    Biden, beating Ryan on facts, reality, motivation, agenda, and middle class empathy was never in question. We didn't need a "debate" to ascertain that. Did the "O" Team gain more previously uncommitted votes tonight, or did the Romney Team?

    Are there any stats on that yet?


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    Well maybe it was never in question in your mind (none / 0) (#117)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:20:50 PM EST
    But I bet it was in the minds of anyone that had not made up their ones yet.

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    Please try to comprehend (none / 0) (#129)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07:58 PM EST
    the issue I have been pointing out all night.

    You say:
    "But I bet it was in the minds of anyone that had not made up their ones [sic] yet."

    I had written:
    "Who won" the target audience is the question. Most of us, having made up our minds a while ago, it doesn't matter who we think "won."

    Glad you agree. So, were any "minds of anyone that had not made up their minds yet?".........been changed?

    That's what I'm waiting to get an empirical answer on.

    We're on the same team, Ruf.

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    I know- just saying that if people are undecided, (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 05:50:52 AM EST
    they must not think it is a given that Joe Biden is going to show more empathy, command of the facts, and all of the other things you mentioned. Else why would they be undecided?

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    yup, I think (none / 0) (#158)
    by NYShooter on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 07:01:56 AM EST
    we're both saying the same thing...in a round-about sort of way.

    What was making me nervous was your understandable, and correct, analysis of the debate, namely that Biden kicked the punk's butt: Factually, depth of understanding, empathy, the whole 9 yards.

    However, I wanted to caution everyone that kicking butt in a debate doesn't necessarily translate into electoral votes in November. Take you, as an example. You, rightfully felt Biden won handily. That's true, but nothing changed. You were going to vote the Obama ticket, regardless.

    And, if a hundred others, of like mind, agreed that Biden won, no votes were changed. They were simply reaffirmed.

    But, suppose a hundred Wingers watched the debates, but only 90 had already made up their minds to vote Romney/Ryan. Did any of the remaining 10 make up their minds finally? And, did they swing from "undecided" to Romney/Ryan?
    In other words, a thousand committed Obama voters having their decision reaffirmed by the debate isn't nearly as important as one "undecided" voter swinging to Romney because of the debate.

    So, hocus pokus, Biden could have, and did, "win" the debate. But, will he "win" the election?

    Stay tuned.


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    I hear ya! (none / 0) (#162)
    by ruffian on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:11:35 AM EST
    I am trying not to use the word 'win', for those very reasons. I will go with 'kicked butt handily' though!

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    I don't (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 08:26:49 AM EST
    know that a VP debate changes anybody's vote really. I mean if that were true Lloyd Bentsen would have won the race for Dukakis back in 1988. I think Biden's performance was helpful in that it probably bucked up Obama supporters and deflated Romney supporters a tad.

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    It was a poll of undecideds (none / 0) (#128)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:59:29 PM EST
    CNN's snap poll was Ryan 48, Biden 44.  If it's the same cross section of voters they targeted last time, that's a victory.

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    O.K. thanks (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by NYShooter on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:11:11 PM EST
    I hope you understand what I'm conflicted on. Gore, and Kerry, "won" their debates. unfortunately GWB won the Presidency.

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    You will not get relief until Nov 7th (none / 0) (#135)
    by coigue on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:15:30 PM EST
    I know exactly what you want to know. The correct answer is....no one knows if people will vote based on this debate.

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    Thank you (none / 0) (#149)
    by NYShooter on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 04:52:05 AM EST


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    I gotcha. (none / 0) (#138)
    by lilburro on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:35:04 PM EST
    I would sooner apply that logic to Romney's debate (esp as I think the media decided Gore "lost") in terms of the meaningfulness of winning a debate against an incumbent.  I'm curious how many people actually watched the debate tonight.

    For better or worse I am daily reminded my (and I suppose by extension us Tlers) political obsessiveness is hardly the norm :/

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    Right, "winning on points" (none / 0) (#151)
    by NYShooter on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 04:59:18 AM EST
    can turn out to be a pyrrhic victory. Biden could hit a grand slam on MMGW, but if Ryan, authoritatively, calls it "Bunk," and his low-information acolytes all get woodies on how tough he is, and how he "shoved it" to Biden, and they're motivated to go out and vote, the idiot "won."


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    Registered or likely voters? (none / 0) (#187)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 09:51:50 AM EST


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    He was nuts on foreign policy, just spouting (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by ruffian on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:11:29 PM EST
    slogans. Go into Syria with not boots on the ground. Just airplanes and stuff, you know! I liked Biden just slightly smiling and shaking his head at that one. Like, oh, you child.

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    BTD (none / 0) (#127)
    by DebFrmHell on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:54:47 PM EST
    You are watching a great game...top of the 13th.

    Iran (none / 0) (#147)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 04:45:19 AM EST
    Biden chided poor little boy lost, saying that we should calm down about Iran, He said sanctions were working. He asked Ryan what else would he do? War?

    You would never know that Obama just announced to the United Nations that, "Time is running out for diplomacy with Iran".
    So what then? War?

    Washington Nats!! (none / 0) (#157)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 06:57:45 AM EST


    War with Iran. (none / 0) (#191)
    by lentinel on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:02:34 AM EST
    If, as Biden said, the sanctions are working, and a nuclear weapon is away off in the distance (which I believe to be the case), why did Obama say at the UN a few weeks ago:

    "Time is running out for diplomacy with Iran".

    And when "time runs out", then what? Military action? War?

    My surmise is that Obama knows that there is no imminent threat from Iran. But he says that stuff at the UN for the benefit of the American audience because he's got to show how tough he is.

    The trouble with that kind of bluster is that, no matter what the actual facts may be, it can lead to war.


    I think this comment is not useful (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 10:28:13 AM EST
    Why? Well if he doesn't bluster a bit he loses and then the world wins real war with Iran.  He makes amazing military calls over and over and over again.  I do not want Obama to lose this election.  If he has to bluster a bit I don't care at this point.  I've seen his actions, he is about security and sanity.  I know that some don't like certain degrees of his policies, but I'm not going to secretly root for nucking futz to win and I'm not going to passively allow nucking futz to have all the air time because Obama isn't peaceful acting enough for me in front of rolling cameras while Romney and Bibi make the whole world paranoid..  Sorry, not doing it.

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    Vice Presidential Debate Thread | 203 comments (203 topical)