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Hillary Clinton's State Dept. Video Promoting LGBT Rights

This video featuring Hillary Clinton,produced a few weeks ago by the State Department, is yet another example of the differences between a Republican and Democrat Administration. Can you imagine it coming from a Secretary of State appointed by Romney or Gingrich?

The media's obsessive focus on Iowa is beyond annoying. Who cares which Republican wins? What matters is keeping a Democrat in the White House and gaining enough of a Democratic majority in Congress to reduce the need to compromise and capitulate. Whether it's civil liberties, Medicare or the war on drugs, Republicans are always worse. They really don't deserve the attention they have been getting lately.

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    Yep, lesser of two evils once again (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 08:56:16 PM EST
    Sadly, this means we will always be dealing with bad choices, where one is simply worse than the other.

    I can't find one reason to praise Obama and the Democrats on either the protection of our rapidly disappearing civil liberties, or on revamping the ill-conceived and poorly executed War on Drugs.

    Obama and the Dems are bad on these issues. The Republicans are simply worse. Depressing.

    Let me know when the Democrats... (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Romberry on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 09:21:50 PM EST
    ...run a candidate for the White House.

    Don't labor under the illusion that what Obama has done in office is because those mean old nasty Republicans made him. When you do, you're just helping maintain the ratchet effect.

    this is good (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:36:10 PM EST
    & yes, this is Obama's State Department - Hillary is not just some loose cannon

    Arab spring? (none / 0) (#72)
    by diogenes on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 07:02:52 PM EST
    Do you think that LGBT Arabs and Jews would fare better in Israel or in some incarnation of a Palestinian state?  Do you think that heterosexual Arab women have more freedoms in Israel or in the hypothetical Palestine?  The size and security of Israel will be greatly be affected by the results of the 2012 election.  

    Parent
    i do not understand (none / 0) (#87)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 06:12:21 PM EST
    how your comment relates in any way to my comment

    Parent
    Republicans are always worse? HorseHockey! (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:45:51 AM EST
    Even Dubya didn't dare do this:

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) pulled a Scrooge move just before Christmas. The agency published an entry in the Federal Register declaring that it will end its attempt at mandatory restrictions on the use of antibiotics in animal agriculture. The agency isn't advertising the shift, though: This news would have remained a secret if not for Maryn McKenna's Superbug blog over at Wired. McKenna, who specializes in writing about antibiotics and their link to pathogens, caught the Federal Register notice.

    Nonsense like the assertion that Republicans are always worse may pass muster with the usual drooling sycophants but it won't go far with the informed.

    Dem President can be worse (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by PatHat on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 07:56:27 AM EST
    Scroll down and read about the Obama Administration drone program. A Democratic President is worse regarding the erosion of critical Constitutional guarantees because the Democrats sit on their hands while the temporarily Democrat President grabs more power.

    Parent
    Thanks for putting this up (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:31:39 AM EST
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by lilburro on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:48:54 AM EST
    this reflects well on Obama.

    One important thing to remember is that the GOP not only won't be pushing any other gay rights agenda items forward - they will be actively trying to undo the progress we made.  No thank you.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#26)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:04:35 AM EST
    I cannot understand anyone who deems gay rights to be important voting for a GOP candidate.

    The GOP is going to pay in the long term for being on the wrong side of history.

    Parent

    I am so sorry to hear that you find (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Buckeye on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:26:48 PM EST
    the fact that there are 2 political parties, that other party also has a primary, and that the media finds who they nominate newsworthy is an annoyance to you.

    Furthermore, asking for an even bigger majority that the historic one Obama enjoyed in 2009 and 2010 as being necessary to drive progressive policies is more excuse making for Obama's poor leadership.  If Obama could not drive the right policies with what voters gave him in 2009 and 2010, then he can't drive the right policies.

    It's not that he can't, it's that there's no (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 08:47:55 AM EST
    reason to believe he wants to, that progressive/liberal/Democratic policies are what he really wants to advocate for and lead on.

    I am pretty much convinced that, if Dems were to hold every seat in Congress, we would still, with Obama as president, get Blue Dog/conservative governance.

    Those who voted for Obama did not get the Democrat he sounded like on the campaign trail, they got the moderate Rockefeller Republican his record indicated he has always been.

    I sat out that particular vote, because when the choice is between two Republicans, even if one has a (D) after his name, that is no choice at all.

    And it looks like that's going to be the case again in November...

    Parent

    Can you imagine if the nominee is Romney? (none / 0) (#93)
    by Buckeye on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 07:56:45 AM EST
    Where are they different?  Obama's biggest achievement was a health care plan he copy/pasted from Romney.  They both have the same foreign policy, defense views.  They both would continue Bush fiscal policy.  

    What would they debate?  Can Obama really make an argument that he is for the middle class and Romney only the rich?  How?  Romney could simply tell Obama "how can you say I only care about the rich but you don't?  You nationalized my health care plan.  You gave Wall Street trillions, I did not give them anything, etc. etc."

    I am not even sure the judges would be that different.  Probably, but not sure.  Look at the judges Romney put on the bench in MA.  I know that was when he was governor of a liberal state, but still, I am not sure he would not pull a Bush 41 and put a Souter on the court.

    Parent

    The alternative point (none / 0) (#1)
    by BTAL on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 08:55:49 PM EST
    is an administration who hasn't proactively done squat for one of it's voting block is now pandering.

    YMMV but pompom pep rallies might not be in order.

    I was not (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by lilburro on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:57:44 AM EST
    entirely pleased with the way the process of repealing DADT unfolded but...Obama certainly made it clear that this was an important agenda item and had the military lay the groundwork for making this change.  And as MKS said, he signed the bill as well.  

    The legislation was pursued with the typical Mona Lisa Smile affect of the Obama team, but it was pursued, and it did pass.  So good on them.

    Parent

    With help from (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 12:10:19 PM EST
    Joe Lieberman, of all people.

    When Joe is ahead of someone on an issue, you know it's bad.

    Parent

    From where I sit he did it exactly (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:31:24 PM EST
    the right way.  When the surveying revealed that a majority of the military wanted DADT repealed then the big brass ball homophobic had no leg to stand on.  They always argued that the repeal would destroy military cohesion and morale.  The survey revealed that it would not, and that it may actually improve those things for some of us.  It was horrible to be gay in the military then, but it was also horrible for any of us who came to care about a gay soldier.  You could watch their whole life go up right in your face, they could take down the lives of others too who would be interrogated about what they knew, when they knew it, and how they knew it.  It was a source of terror for many.

    Most longterm decisions on the military cultural policies are decided at this time on implementing what keeps the force strong in mind and body and spirit.  That is where being all volunteer keeps the focus too.  Our politicians can more easily brush off the things you need to be strong in mind, body, and spirit than it can those who must stand on the wall because they need the protection first.  They rely strongly on the perception of strength too to deter attacks.

    One thing I do ask myself though is what role did Bradley Mannings leak play in the repeal of DADT.  When I heard the repeal argued prior to Manning, the scenario where DADT made us very weak and vulnerable was always that someone in intel would be caught "being gay" and would be bribed by our enemies.

    What ended up happening though was a gay soldier in the intel community (and for some reason the intel branch seems to have many gay soldiers serving) became so isolated, felt ridiculed, and his career destroyed by admitting he was gay, and in the disenfranchisement he suffered he enfranchised himself elsewhere where he was respected and even probably somewhat admired.

    Parent

    Not true (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:09:57 AM EST
    I believe there was a silent majority who wanted to go into Afghanistan properly and deal with it, and now that we got Osama bin Laden who didn't want to go again?

    *Out of Iraq - check
    *DADT - check
    *Environmental issues - semi check (gotta stay on his ass and then he does it)
    *Repaired our standing in the world - check, and more quickly and soundly than I thought ANYONE could
    *Kicked the VAs butt - check, soldiers matter

    Just my list of what really mattered to me that I got, there are other lists

    Parent

    Repeal of DADT (none / 0) (#4)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 09:36:28 PM EST
    Something that your candidates oppose.

    Parent
    Please link us up (none / 0) (#8)
    by BTAL on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:24:10 PM EST
    to where Obama lead the charge for the DADT repeal.

    Until then, you are also just pandering.

    Parent

    He signed it (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:33:20 PM EST
    Your Republican anti-gay candidate would not have, and actually may try to roll it back.

    Did you support the repeal of DADT?

    Parent

    I'd be completely happy (none / 0) (#18)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:58:46 AM EST
    to see a Republican president and Congress reinstall Don't Ask Don't Tell. Let them make fools of themselves and go down in history as complete idiots.

    But you know they won't, even if they capture the presidency. Like Obama's fear mongering about the Republicans taxing the middle class if he didn't agree to extend the Bush tax cuts last year, it's all a bunch of hogwash to make us think he's on our side. In reality, both sides are eagerly destroying the middle class so the plutocrats can create a servant class desperate for slave labor jobs. Gay rights and homophobia are just a Get Out The Vote strategy being milked by both sides.

    Parent

    Pandering--that's the Mittster (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:58:45 PM EST
    But as Rove is wont to do, just attack the other side for what you do.....Great distraction.

    Parent
    So now, lets discuss (none / 0) (#59)
    by christinep on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:52:57 PM EST
    the Repubs stated & publicized position regarding DADT==and, for that matter, any Gay/LGBT issues--and, let's discuss with some specificity. Tell us, then, BTAL what each of the Repub candidates for the presidential nomination believes (with citations, if you would be so kind.)

    Nonone know whether any act is "pandering"...the eye-of-the-beholder kind of thing. But, people do know when candidates publicly oppose something and/or shy from taking a public position. My guess: Whatever is "pandering" is far better than the No Action Alternative or the Opposition Alternative.

    So, how sour are those grapes?

    Parent

    Hey - people can change their minds! (none / 0) (#62)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:12:02 PM EST
    jbindc: Follow the old, tried & true adages (none / 0) (#63)
    by christinep on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:16:52 PM EST
    (1) The one whose watch it is on gets the credit or the blame. (2) Results count. (Related to: Actions count. A miss is as good as a mile. Etc.)

    Parent
    Yea, results certainly count (none / 0) (#92)
    by jbindc on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 07:46:05 AM EST
    See employment numbers, healthcare costs rising, etc.

    Parent
    So you're saying Clinton's UN speech (none / 0) (#6)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 09:39:23 PM EST
    was just one big pander? Really?

    Parent
    Hard to argue with this diary (none / 0) (#5)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 09:37:06 PM EST
    Well said.

    Say again... (none / 0) (#7)
    by desertswine on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 09:51:23 PM EST
    The media's obsessive focus on Iowa is beyond annoying.
    The media's obsessive focus on Iowa is beyond annoying.

    You can say that twice.

    But HRC will be stepping down (none / 0) (#9)
    by Towanda on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:31:58 PM EST
    after this term.  So we have to see whether we would get the equivalent of another Tim Geithner in the Cabinet, as Secretary of State.  We will not get another who would do a video like this.

    I'm sure that a Romney or Gingrich could do worse -- but how much worse than the equivalent of another Geithner?  I'm just not seeing that the current Cabinet has more than a couple of worthy members, and a second-term Cabinet will be worse.

    Dr. Susan Rice, now (none / 0) (#12)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:39:48 PM EST
    Ambassador to the U.N., will most likely succeed Hillary at State.  BTD has long been of this opinion too.

    John Kerry wants it but he is a long shot.....

    Susan Rice and Hillary appear to be of the same mind.....

    They certainly were big proponents of pushing Obama into his Libya policy.....They did not want to see another massacre in Africa....The ladies were the driving force behind that decision, which many here do not like but which I really do--very innovative and successful.

    Parent

    I'd really like to know his plans (none / 0) (#13)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 29, 2011 at 10:51:21 PM EST
    regarding SoS. I hope Kerry is a long shot . . .

    Parent
    Agreed. I would need to know (none / 0) (#15)
    by Towanda on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 12:10:57 AM EST
    the Cabinet for which I was voting.

    Rice in?  Okay.

    Geithner still in?  Not okay.

    Holder, I'm on the fence about just now, as he just did a very good thing.  After three years, though, and some things not good at all.

    Etc.

    Parent

    Robert Reich puts his money on (none / 0) (#50)
    by smott on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 02:34:08 PM EST
    Biden and Clinto swapping jobs in 2012.


    Parent
    Reich must have too much time on his hands (none / 0) (#74)
    by shoephone on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 07:48:24 PM EST
    this holiday season. That scenario has been bandied about for at least the last year, and it gets sillier as time passes. 1) There is no evidence to support the theory that Biden is a drag on the ticket; 2) There is no evidence to support the theory that Clinton would be an overall plus to the ticket; and, 3) Clinton has made it clear she intends to retire from SOS and from the administration soon after January 2013.

    Happy New Year Robert Reich -- please keep fighting the good fight against the corruptness of the 1%, and leave the horserace stuff to Nate Silver and the cranks at CNN.

    Parent

    Guessing cabinet positions so soon? (none / 0) (#61)
    by christinep on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:59:12 PM EST
    Based on .... Hey, Secretary Clinton has been one mighty good Secretary of State. That says a lot right there.

    But then, are we looking for the dark cloud with the silver lining?

    Parent

    So unaware? (none / 0) (#76)
    by Towanda on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:40:47 PM EST
    See: history.

    This has been done, as you ought to know with all of your vast political background, to garner votes for re-election.

    Parent

    How could I forget :). (none / 0) (#80)
    by christinep on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 07:33:35 AM EST
    Kerry is a tough one for me (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:42:32 AM EST
    I would love to get him the hell out of that senate seat and replace him with someone else.  Especially since otherwise he could be there for a very long time, vs. 4 years at State.

    Also, frankly, SOS is something I don't think he'd f*ck up. Is he as good as Hillary/Rice?  Probably not.  But I don't think he would be a disaster there, he'd probably be just fine.  There are worse things.

    Parent

    Go Hillary (none / 0) (#17)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:55:25 AM EST
    "Leadership, by definition, means being out in front of your people, when it is called for. It means standing up for the dignity of all your citizens and persuading your people to do the same."

    I wonder if Obama's opinion on gay rights is still "evolving." Maybe he should take a tip from Hillary's speech and start acting like a leader.

    Hold up now (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:32:00 AM EST
    1. I believe Hillary's position on gay rights evolved to support civil unions and she still hasn't publicly supported gay marriage.

    2. When a cabinet member tanked the Plan B pill a month ago, that was all Obama's direct doing and when a cabinet member supports gay rights through policy, that is all the cabinet member's doing?

    One way or the other people.

    3. Obama has done more for gay rights than any other president.  Period. Full stop.  That is a leader.

    Parent

    I guess what I would ask you is, (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    if Obama believes enough in the message Hillary delivered via that video, why didn't he, as the leader of this country, deliver that message to the leaders of all of the countries where being gay is considered to be a crime?  Why not leader-to-leader, instead of member-of-administration to leaders?

    That's a serious question, ABG.  And as I consider what the possible answers are, I can't help but look back on the repeal of DADT, and remember that Obama did not really lead on it - he responded to persistent, focused, and often angry, pressure from the gay community and advocacy groups, but he wasn't out in front of it, willing to take whatever criticism came his way - he left that to others.  He bided his time, took the country's and the military' political temperature on a regular basis, and when it hit that sweet spot where he felt it was safe, he got out of the way.  Is that leadership?  Probably to you it is, but I think some of us would not call it that.  

    On Plan B, come on now; you can't tell me that if Obama had objected to the decision that he says was made by Sebelius - I have my doubts, actually - he would not have shut her down and moved ahead with the FDA's recommendation.  And what did we hear from our leader on this issue?  That, as Sasha and Malia's dad, he agreed with it.  Obama-the-president, and Obama-the-candidate said he wanted his administration to make policy and decisions on the basis of science, but when the science said something he - as a parent - couldn't accept, he gave his blessing to the decision not to implement the FDA's recommendation.

    Given that this was not the first time Obama has made decisions, or gone along with decisions, that went  against the women's health interests,  I see two problems: one is a lack of leadership based on what he keeps saying he believes in - women's rights and science - and the other is a willingness to side with anti-choice groups and  religious leaders and organizations that seem to hold more sway with him than the women affected by him going along with these groups.

    I know you believe Obama to be a wonderful leader, but my definition of "leader" isn't someone who waits to see where the majority is headed before he acts - or before he gets someone else to act in case there is political blowback he wants to be a safe distance from.

    Do I believe a Republican president would have a SOS who had permission to make the kind of video Hillary did?  Of course not.  But as I and others have said on more than one occasion, this not-as-bad-as-the-other-guy metric is one that ensures that the quality of candidates we have to choose from - and the governance that results - will just continue to decline.

    As long as we, the people, believe there is nothing we can do but passively go along, we shouldn't be surprised at how bad things turn out.

    Parent

    My answer for Anne (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    Because that is not the way that such messages are delivered diplomatically.  Who knows what Obama says to leaders privately, but on matters such as this, environmental issues, security posturing, economic strategy, etc., the mouth of the president is the form of communication of last resort, not just for this president but for all presidents.  Messages are passed through ambassadors, liasons, negotiators, diplomats and any number of a dozen levels between before something reaches the stage that a president says to another head of state "we want x".

    Now on DADT for example, I think you confuse "being loud" with leading.  Obama, in the second year, made it clear to his military brass with almost no fanfare that DADT would be coming down within two years and he pushed on the Pentagon while quietly working through Pelosi and Reid in congress to get it done.

    That is real leadership.  Anyone can get out and yell and make a big to do.  Leadership in my mind requires setting a goal, charting a way to get there and then getting there.

    Results are what matters, not how loud you yell trying to get there.

    I think Obama on DADT was leadership personified.

    Parent

    Reminder (none / 0) (#41)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:00:57 PM EST
    Here was a blurb about Obama outlining the DADT strategy in 2009.  He had a plan, he took heat for the plan, the plan ultimately worked.

    Now that the dust has settled, you are forgetting that this started with a plan. His plan:

    "You can see the outline of the strategy in the administration's decision to let stand an appeals court ruling requiring the military to explain why being gay is, in itself, a reason to have fired a highly regarded lesbian Air Force major.  The effect of not appealing the ruling will put the burden on the government to explain to skeptical judges why being gay is inherently incompatible with military service, something the administration (and many in the military) believe is very hard to prove, let alone justify. The hope here is that by allowing the military to make its best case -- and then seeing that case be torn apart by the courts, a critical mass of opposition to Don't Ask, Don't Tell, will build.

    Obama will probably convene a commission -- not sure yet whether it'll be a blue ribbon dealy or a smaller task force -- that will,  under the guise of studying the "problem," be tasked with coming up with ways to meaningfully and safely integrate open homosexuality with military service. No mistake here: the administration will not give this commission the option to decide that being gay is not compatible with service.  But the idea is to build a consensus through all available means -- legally, through the courts, in public, through a concerted but non-hectoring public relations effort, in the military, by conveying the sense that Obama takes the objections to his view seriously -- and then, when such a consensus has arisen, work with Congress to change the policy.

    That's what Obama wants. He wants consensus, and that doesn't simply mean the approval of the American public, which, by and large, supports gays who want to serve in the military.  This approach by no means endears him to gay rights activists, and it probably shouldn't. But it's what Obama has decided to do."

    Link

    He took a massive amount of heat from all sides, perservered and got it done. That's what I personally mean when I say "leadership".

    Parent

    Yeah, right. (none / 0) (#79)
    by MyLeftMind on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 02:15:45 AM EST
    And his "leadership plan" on marriage equality for LGBT citizens is to allow them to HOPE he'll do something in his second four years. So let's all go vote for Obama again, and he'll commit to not being as bad as the Republicans. He won't veto the Defense of Marriage Act, but then again, he won't have to because Congress won't pass it.

    Leaders lead. I expect the first black president to completely understand oppression of gays, and do whatever it takes to LEAD our country forward on this issue. This should have happened in the first two years of his presidency, when Dems held both the House and the Senate. Now it's too late, thanks to Obama's lukewarm, evolving support of gay rights.

    He's not interested in promoting equality. He just wants our votes again.

    Parent

    on what basis (none / 0) (#86)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 06:10:20 PM EST
    do you expect this?

    I expect the first black president to completely understand oppression of gays.


    Parent
    Heh, wishful thinking I guess. (none / 0) (#98)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jan 06, 2012 at 10:40:21 AM EST
    I never saw Obama leading on this issue. (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by nycstray on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:44:21 AM EST
    Following through on other leads, yes. Leading, no.

    Parent
    If Obama (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by jbindc on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 12:12:58 PM EST
    Was so big on gay rights, why didn't he push for this kind of policy at ALL the executive agencies?  Why did it take HRC to announce and do it?

    Parent
    Mitt Romney (none / 0) (#25)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 09:59:17 AM EST
    on Gay Marriage

    As an aside, I really think this will be one of his biggest issues:

    "The guy ain't going to make it," he said of Romney. "He is not going to make it...You can't trust him. I just saw it in his eyes. I judge a man by his eyes."

    I know a lot of people think this way about Obama too.  But Romney really takes it to a whole 'nother level.  Obama is capable of connecting with people on some level, I don't think Romney is.  There are people that love Obama and people that hate Obama and a lot of us in between, but I can't think of a single person that loves Romney, except maybe his wife.

    I would caveat that a bit (none / 0) (#27)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:07:54 AM EST
    I think that Obama probably has one of the highest personal favorability ratings of any president.  Even the people who think he's a commie on the right still think he's an OK guy for the most part.

    I think, as with Clinton before him, that one thing is clear:

    The most important aspect of any politician is his or her ability to make people like them generally. Clinton and Obama (and Reagan, although I hate to admit it) had that talent.

    Mitt does not. At all. And I think that is ultimately what will be his downfall. He should be crushing the president right now given the economy, but he's just not a likable guy and that matters.

    Parent

    I've said it before (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:34:01 AM EST
    and I'll say it again, Mitt is the republican version of John Kerry, minus the military service.

    All we need is a shot of him windsurfing, or some such thing.

    Parent

    When John Kerry ran against Bush (none / 0) (#94)
    by Buckeye on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 08:00:17 AM EST
    we had full employment.  Big difference.

    Incumbents are 4-4 in the last 8 times they were on the ballot.  Do you know what the 4 losers all had in common?  Hint, they faced the same issues Obama is facing, only not as bad.  In this economy, you simply cannot rule out any challenger.

    Parent

    Disagree (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:05:14 AM EST
    I don't think Obama connects to anybody either unfortunately. Obama seems to look at voters as some sort of sociological experiment to be studied and not real people who have real concerns and problems.

    Parent
    "anybody"? (none / 0) (#33)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:20:29 AM EST
    really?  Or do you just mean you and yours?

    I think it's very clear that there are a lot of people who really like Obama.  I mean cripes how many times have people whined about the Obama "fan boys" or whatever, not to mention all the rallies in 2008 with people crying, etc...

    Say what you will about the man but that is a connection.  The kind Mitt Romney could never have.  Anecdotally, I know a lot of people that personally like Obama.  I don't know a single person that personally likes Romney, and that includes the people I know will vote for him anyway.

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:28:46 AM EST
    if you observe people's reaction and how he responds to them in town hall meetings etc. that's how it comes off. He seems to be talking at or lecturing the person asking the question instead of having a conversation with them.

    Oh, there's definitely some sort of emotional investment that some people have no matter what Obama does or says. Obama comes off though as someone with no emotional intelligence just cold.

    Parent

    he comes off that way to you (none / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:33:17 AM EST
    but if people have an emotional investment in someone that means they like him.

    I never said everyone did, I comment here on a regular basis, I'm well aware that a lot of people really don't like him or have that connection.  But some people clearly do.  Who is emotionally invested in Mitt Romney?

    Parent

    Do you (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:44:56 AM EST
    know any Mormons? They might have that emotional investment in Mitt.

    I'm always taken back to thinking of that lady who asked Obama is this economy her "new reality" and Obama gave the most dispassionate answer that anyone could give and yet this lady says she still "liked" Obama or at least that's what she said in public.

    I mean if a pollster asked me about him, I would say neither like nor dislike Obama. That's kind of big picture thing but then when you start asking more specific questions like how he is handling the economy I would probably really have something to say.

    Parent

    that's what I'm talking about though (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CST on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 11:51:15 AM EST
    if someone likes you even if you $uck, that makes a difference in politics.

    I'm not saying it's right, hell that's a big reason why we ended up with GWB twice, but it's a factor in elections.

    You are right, I don't know many mormons, and the mormons I do know I have never spoken to about Mitt.  But with the exception of Utah, that's just not a significant factor.  And if we are going with identity politics, Obama has the leg up on that one too.

    Parent

    This is one of the places (none / 0) (#42)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:08:54 PM EST
    that a poll would be helpful to give you an idea of what others think.

    The latest CNN poll has his personal approval rating  at an incredible 76% while his other personal "likeability" ratings remain at or above the levels of Reagan, Clinton or W.

    Link

    You are having an issue separating your feelings from what most people think.  The proof is in the numbers.

    Parent

    Wrong link? The link you cite (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by Towanda on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:16:53 PM EST
    does not accord with what you state, from what I see.  If it does, can you point me on that link to a CNN poll, on likeability, with a 76% state, etc.?

    Parent
    And, once again, ABG wants us to know (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:53:55 PM EST
    what "everyone else thinks" in order to, what, know what we think, or decide what we think, or change what we think once we realize we aren't in the all-important majority?

    I wonder when he will finally understand that novel concept of "thinking for one's self" that - in my opinion, anyway - is becoming a lost art.

    The 12th of Never would be my guess...

    Parent

    The point (none / 0) (#49)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 02:13:04 PM EST
    of this discussion is what everyone else thinks.  We are talking about whether Obama is likeable and whether Romney is likeable.

    You are trying way too hard to find things to disagree about and the strain is showing.

    Parent

    Yes, Towanda (none / 0) (#44)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:26:31 PM EST
    I didn't see the "76%" in this link, either.

    Parent
    Here it is Towanda (none / 0) (#47)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 02:10:11 PM EST

    "And his personal approval ratings remain high. The CNN-ORC International survey puts it at 76 percent."

    Link

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 01:46:48 PM EST
    CNN poll has him at 53% which is the highest and with the margin of error it means that about half the people fall into "like" and the other half don't.

    The more telling one was the one below it that said that only 22% strongly approve of Obama so you're one of the 22% I guess.

    Parent

    Of course I am (none / 0) (#48)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 02:11:44 PM EST
    I am among the 95% plus African Americans who feel the same way.

    The point is that those who dislike Obama personally are in the minority. Most people like him a little or like him a lot.

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:02:47 PM EST
    that point is not proven. What I see is it is 50/50. The poll with the 76% was back in August months ago and his rating has taken over a 20 point hit in the last few months. You linked to an opinion piece the second time that referred back to the a previous opinion piece that was written using polls from August. So no, he's not as well liked as you want it to be and dragging up old poll numbers does nothing but make you look silly.

    Parent
    Do (none / 0) (#53)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:31:10 PM EST
    you have any idea how his favorability ratings compare to other presidents.

    Perhaps, before you claim to have the definitive answers, that you should provide that.

    For example, how many points higher do you think Clinton's favorability was over Obama's when he left office.

    Parent

    Once (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:37:43 PM EST
    again you're now trying to change the subject. Whatever. Your poll was old. No, I don't care what other presidents favorability ratings were because I don't think that they make that much of a difference when it comes to voting and those ratings always lag behind job approval for the most part. I remember Bush Sr. having higher favorability ratings but it didn't translate into votes.

    Parent
    Clinton was at 65% - Obama at 43% (none / 0) (#81)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 08:24:15 AM EST
    A heeee-YOOOOGE difference, but not sure what your point is.

    Clinton

    Obama

    Parent

    I believe that the point being discussed (none / 0) (#83)
    by christinep on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 11:30:52 AM EST
    Concerns "favorability" ratings...not so-called "approval" ratings. Also: Recall that President Clinton experienced vast approval swings throughout his first term.

    Parent
    Any President's ratings swing ... (none / 0) (#84)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 01:52:21 PM EST
    Also, recall that the "question" ABG raised was Clinton's favorability ratings at the end of his term.  Apart from a few, small bumps, Obama's approval ratings have steadily declined from the time he took office.

    For example, how many points higher do you think Clinton's favorability was over Obama's when he left office.

    Personally, I could care less about whether I want to have a beer with the POTUS - I want to know whether people think he's doing his job (i.e. approval ratings).  That being said, re: favorability ratings, ABG was very "selective" in his choice of polls.  From his link, he chose a CNN favorability poll from December of 2008 to try to make his point.  The latest CNN poll (from ABG's link) has him at 48% (nowhere near the 76% claimed by ABG) - the latest AP is 53% - the latest Fox 48% - NBC 45% - Quinnipiac 47% - McClatchy 47% - ABC 47%, etc., etc.  This from a POTUS who entered office with favorability ratings at historic highs (69-79%).

    To answer ABG's question re: Clinton's end-of-term favorability ratings, Clinton was at 64% (Pew), 51% (Gallup), NBC (56%), ABC (56%), CBS (57%), Fox (48%), CNN (53%), etc., etc.  Of course, this would include a lot of people who, while approving of the job Clinton did as POTUS, did not view him (personally) favorably because of his infidelity and the 3 years spent on the investigation/impeachment.

    Parent

    That info is worthwhile (none / 0) (#85)
    by christinep on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 05:36:34 PM EST
    Clarification: Is Clinton's end-of-term favorability the end of two terms or the end-of-first term. While I understand that ABG & others are asserting various points--apples, oranges, & even mangoes--my little add on would be that any comparison (for whatever it is worth--even tho I always love to throw around the end of eight years status that President Clinton enjoyed when speaking with some Repubs who are stricken with apoplexy at the thought)...yet, that any comparison be end of first term with end of first terms. (Or end of third year with end of third year.)

    Parent
    Still not sure why ... (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 07:47:42 PM EST
    ... its "worthwhile, let alone relevant.  The only reason ABG even tries to compare Obama's numbers (first approval, now favorability) to Clinton's numbers is to try to prop up Obama.  He was constantly going on about how Obama's numbers (approval) are better/no worse than Clinton's for the longest time.  Now that he can no longer make that argument, he's trying the same with favorability numbers instead, although his 76% favorability claim is nowhere near reality.

    BTW - Those numbers were for the end of Clinton's second term.  While most polls didn't poll in Jan., 1997, the nearest numbers for the end of his first term are actually higher - 66% (Pew), 56% (NBC), 60% (ABC), 57% (CNN), 63% (Zogby), 61% (L.A. Times).

    Link.

    Don't know where ABG is getting his 76% Obama favorability poll (not his own link), but I do know why he's trying to make the claim, and I doubt he still wants to compare numbers.

    Parent

    Yman, this is just one example of (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 09:49:28 PM EST
    ABG's inability - or refusal - to debate with any semblance of honesty.  It amazes me, really, that he still doesn't get that most of us are not satisfied by a poll number - we want to know when it was done and who conducted it, what the questions were, how many were in the sample; give us a link, and we not only will check it, but we will go deeper if we don't get enough information there.  And we will call BS when we see it and find it.

    Is it any wonder that I've come to think of him as "All Bullsh!t Guy?"

    Parent

    Actually, I meant that your info was worthwhile (none / 0) (#89)
    by christinep on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 08:52:52 PM EST
    <Maybe we are all a bit too quick to jump.... hmmm.>

    Parent
    I was referring to my info (none / 0) (#90)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 09:22:18 PM EST
    But now that you mention it ...

    Parent
    Maybe its me (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Left of the Left on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:05:11 PM EST
    but I dont see high personal favorability numbers as definitive proof of people personally connecting with him. He seems like a good guy, caring father, and that comes across. But that's not people connecting with him, that's not people identifying with him. He is no Bill Clinton in that respect. But...he's likable enough.

    Parent
    What evidence do we have (none / 0) (#54)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:32:53 PM EST
    Other than anecdotal ("I don't like him and neither do the people I talk to) to go on?

    I am trying to provide some level of support for the assertions. What is another objective indicator of his ability to connect with people?

    I'd be interested in suggestions, as always.

    Parent

    You just (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:39:06 PM EST
    have to watch him in town hall meetings and see how he does. That's where his inability to connect with voters shows up.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#64)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:26:27 PM EST
    Ga6th: [paraphrasing] what evidence is there that people like him

    Me: [paraphrasing] There are polls that say his favorables are on par with some of

    Ga6th: [paraphrasing] Those polls aren't evidence of anything.  I am not comparing his numbers to anyone else's but they just aren't because I say they aren't.

    Me: What evidence do you have that people don't connect with him?

    Ga6th: You just have to watch him in town hall meetings and see how he does.

    Me: [throwing hands up in the air]

    Parent

    You (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 06:10:25 PM EST
    used OLD polls to try to prove your point and then when that fell apart you switched to a comparison to other presidents which means nothing.

    You keep moving the goal posts for Obama. I understand that you're emotionally invested in him for whatever reason but this is getting downright silly.

    Parent

    I like Santa Clause a bunch (none / 0) (#57)
    by BTAL on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:40:49 PM EST
    but would never vote for him.

    Parent
    Claus not Clause n/t (none / 0) (#58)
    by BTAL on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:41:14 PM EST
    The point of the discussion (none / 0) (#65)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:27:57 PM EST
    was that people probably won't like voting for Mitt because he's not likeable.

    Have to keep in mind the context of the discussion.  Of course it is not the only reason you vote, but people don't get fired up to vote for someone they detest personally.

    Parent

    But would you vote for (none / 0) (#69)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:54:42 PM EST
    "Subordinate Clause"?   ;-)

    Parent
    I never said I do not like him. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Left of the Left on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 03:56:28 PM EST
    Plus I live in Obama country. Your evidence is really proof of nothing. You are pointing to a polling result and assigning a value to it that was not asked when people were polled. Most people still love Michael Jordan, but how many would say they connect with him, or feel he connects with them?

    You present evidence of the former, and claim the latter.

    Parent

    OK (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:28:48 PM EST
    Prove that he is not liked.  The door swings both ways.  At least I am trying to provide some level of support for my point.  

    If not polls then what?

    Parent

    Maybe People Will Believe It (none / 0) (#68)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:32:00 PM EST
    When Firedoglake makes the same points:

    "How is it that Obama seems to be defying basic political gravity? It would appear that at least part of the reason Obama is doing so well in the theoretical general elections is that regular people kinda like Obama as a person, and have very unfavorable impressions about all the Republican nominees."

    Link

    Parent

    What you are missing is what the (none / 0) (#70)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 04:59:41 PM EST
    people here are saying about how they feel, about what the people they personally come into contact with feel, and trying to use poll numbers to "prove" that they're out of step or wrong if their opinions are not in line with those numbers.

    Everyone has his or her own impression of the candidates, but I guess what I don't get is why it matters so much that we "like" a candidate in some personal way, since very few people actually "know" a candidate beyond what comes across their TV screens or into the pages of their newspapers and magazines.

    I've stated on a number of occasions that Barack Obama is probably a great husband, father and friend - but I will never know him any way other than what he does as a president; those are the things that really affect me, not whether Obama is more personable than Romney.

    Have you noted the disconnect between how favorably or unfavorably Obama is viewed "personally," and the approval-disapproval of his performance as president?  That disconnect is proof - if you need proof - that people do have the ability to separate these two aspects - the personal and the professional - and as such, can go into the voting booth and make a choice that has nothing to do with the candidate's likeability, and everything to do with his performance, his record and his positions on issues that directly affect their well-being, their futures, their livelihoods and their wallets.

    Rather than go to the poll numbers each and every time some point comes up, it might be far more valuable to probe the details of the opinions expressed by people you don't agree with to better understand where Obama falls short and how he can improve his chances for re-election.

    Parent

    Anne (1.00 / 1) (#73)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    Rather than assert ignorance and every time some point comes up, it might be far more valuable to probe the details of the opinions expressed by people you don't agree with to better understand where Obama succeeds in their eyes.

    The listening bit.  That goes both ways.

    Parent

    I am not.. (none / 0) (#78)
    by Left of the Left on Sat Dec 31, 2011 at 12:15:20 AM EST
    nor is anyone that I have read attempting to say Obama is not liked, or even hated.

    I am pointing out to you that proof someone is well liked is not the same as saying people connect with that individual in a personal way. I do not have to provide support in any way for this particular point since it is you who are making the claim.

    Obama may in fact share that type of connection with the majority of the american public. You have failed to provide evidence to that fact. And what you have provided in no way disproves the possibility that he does not share that type of connection with the majority of the american public.


    Parent

    Ok; I've read enough confirmation bias polluted (none / 0) (#75)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Dec 30, 2011 at 10:14:58 PM EST
    nonsense.

    Here's another opinion, citing somewhat more recent opinion polls than some here have recently and disingenuously droned:

    Rational Irrationality: Obama's 2012 Prospects - Now for the Bad News


    SITE VIOLATOR! (none / 0) (#97)
    by Zorba on Tue Jan 03, 2012 at 10:19:55 AM EST
    Spam.  In Turkish, again.