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Sunday Afternoon Open Thread: Stupak Deal is On the Table

The House is debating the health care bill. If you're a rules buff, you can follow along on the House twitter feed, where you'll see lots of references to things being "laid on the table," which always reminds me of Cream and "Badge":

Thinkin' 'bout the times you drove in my car.

Thinkin' that I might have drove you too far.

And I'm thinkin' 'bout the love that you laid on my table.

I wonder if anyone in the House has a kid who is married to Mabel. On a more substantive note, FDL is live-blogging the debate.

Update: There's a deal with Stupak. He'll hold a press conference at 4pm ET and announce he's voting for the bill. C-Span will stream live. Republicans on Twitter sound pissed, they're calling him a traitor.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Rainy Day here (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 02:58:50 PM EST
    Just watched 'Bright Star' on DVD. Very good and moody. Kind of timely too - if only Keats had had better health care.

    Might turn on CSPAN if I can handle it.

    Fixed a broken dresser drawer this morning, on a dresser I have had since the early 80's. Pulling out the drawers, I found old sox, tons of dust, AND....my 'Anderson of Illinois for President' badge from 1980!!! The only presidential candidate I have ever had from my actual home district - an ex-Republican who ran as an Independent against Reagan. Anyway, it was a fun blast from the past to find this morning.

    "Bright Star" costume designer deserved (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:00:09 PM EST
    an Oscar.  

    Parent
    I was thinking the same thing as I watched (none / 0) (#12)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:08:11 PM EST
    Though I felt the same way watching 'Young Victoria'. I think it must have been a close vote there.

    Parent
    Sell it on ebay :) (none / 0) (#7)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:01:01 PM EST
    Good idea - I might try! (none / 0) (#10)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:07:13 PM EST
    Obviously I am not that attached to it, since it has probably been under that drawer for 25 years.

    Parent
    They are only going for $1.50 (none / 0) (#88)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:49:38 PM EST
    Guess I will keep it. I have a box of old badges - it somehow escaped from there a long time ago. I will just put it back at long last.

    Parent
    Good for you! (none / 0) (#34)
    by EL seattle on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:28:01 PM EST
    Anderson was the first candidate that I voted for once I was old enough to vote.  Here on the west coast, the election had been called hours before the polls closed, so it was an easy call to try to get the indie candidate enough support for matching funds.  (As I recall.)

    Somewhere in my stuff, I should have a (Mo) Udall button from the '76 primaries.  Those were the days.  If I can't find that button, I guess I'll have to track down a replacement through eBay.

    Parent

    One reason that '80 (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by brodie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:46:04 PM EST
    election would have been called early, too early, for the West Coast voters who had hours left to vote, was that that genius Jimmy Carter decided to publicly concede around 5:30 pm PT.   People out here were furious, since it badly affected down ticket contests.

    As for '76, that should have been a better year for a liberal candidate to emerge, given the large number of them in the primaries.  But perhaps they all cancelled each other out, paving the way for the more conservative Jimmy.  Mo Udall was a good guy, but members of the House rarely go straight from there to the WH.  (His brother Stewart passed on today, btw.)

    Parent

    Yes, I remember that (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:50:39 PM EST
    I had moved to California by the time the election actually happened. I did vote even though it had been called, just to give Anderson a vote.

    Carter - good man, but sadly not a political genius. Maybe if I hadn't been more concerned with high school graduation at the time, I would know how the heck he got the Dem nomination and then won in '76!

    Parent

    Basically, JC decided and organized (none / 0) (#77)
    by brodie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:24:33 PM EST
    for a presidential race in 76 far earlier than some of the other majors, including upstanding libs like Sen Church, Udall and Jerry Brown who, like Church, decided a little late in the process.

    Carter was already decided before his first and only term as gov was wrapped up, which was Jan 1975.  Then his campaign's savvy strategy, not entirely a no-brainer back then, to devote massive amounts of effort and time to winning the IA caucus, just then beginning to be considered important.  

    The NYT's Johnny Apple, iirc, helped JC's cause when, again if dim memory serves, he massively elevated a 2d place Carter finish (after Undeclared) to a Major Victory Worthy of being Front Paged and written about in nearly stone-chiseled, Biblical terms.

    Parent

    Stupak 1, Democratic principles and platform 0 (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:08:40 PM EST


    "Religous or moral objections" (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:10:27 PM EST
    to the Democratic Party platform, Rep. Stupak, would seem to me to best be resolved by admitting that you and your cohort in front of the camera are Republicans.

    Parent
    And Rep. Kaptur, how do you dare (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:15:44 PM EST
    call out the March of Dimes as on your side on this traducing of Democratic principles.

    May FDR rise from the grave to get you for that one.

    (Her theatrics in choking up at this marvelous moment are just too much.  Taking us into the 21st century, you say?  The 20th is looking better now.)

    Parent

    It's ok, because Stupak is stupid. (none / 0) (#16)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:13:34 PM EST
    That means that what has happened is a victory for Democrats. (Did I get that right, OFB?)

    Parent
    No,its not OK (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:44:00 PM EST
    and yes, Stupak is stupid. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

    Parent
    It was snark (none / 0) (#52)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:50:35 PM EST
    based on comments in the last thread.

    Parent
    I don't recall anyone (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:02:10 PM EST
    in the last thread saying all cops and law enforcement people are stupid, but perhaps I missed it.

    I did say my impression of Stupak was that he wasn't very bright, and I stand by that.  I may be entirely wrong, but that's the way he strikes me, and that's certainly what his behavior in this whole saga seems to demonstrate fairly clearly.

    Parent

    You probably don't hear all the (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:04:41 PM EST
    high-pitched squeaks, that's all.

    Parent
    Wasn't you (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:05:08 PM EST
    No worries - you actually give thoughtful and interesting comments, even if I don't always agree.

    Parent
    To: gyrfalcon (none / 0) (#122)
    by christinep on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:39:01 PM EST
    Perhaps, Stupak isn't very bright--I used to think that. Then, I listened today, and found: A person who know how to negotiate. That is not dumb. (Also: His accent sounds like a steelworker or miner...someone from my background...a stereotypical "non-educated" man.... Maybe the slight accent--the Canadian accent.)

    Parent
    With respect (none / 0) (#136)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 02:08:58 PM EST
    Christinep, a person who knows how to negotiate would not have painted himself into a corner the way he did and then folded completely when push came to shove.

    I'll say again here that I think he is a sincere man with sincere principles (some of which I obviously disagree with vehemently).  But I think he got tooken by GOPers or others on this whole issue.

    Parent

    Sincere Principals? (none / 0) (#137)
    by squeaky on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 02:53:36 PM EST
    Yeah, sincere to the extent that he thinks what he is saying is what his constituents want. I am certain that his principals are based on the wind generated by voters applause. He is a politician.

    Parent
    Oh yeah, forgot about that one (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:03:47 PM EST
    I lost track of it somewhere around the cops, the Dixie Chicks and Lotte Lenya.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#68)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:05:47 PM EST
    You really need a scorecard to keep up with random tangents we end up on.

    Parent
    Yes, according to some (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:39:07 PM EST
    So is Kendrick Meek (former Florida Highway Patrolman), Tim Holden (former probation officer and former sheriff of Schuylkill County), and several other members of Congress who worked in law enforcement (including an FBI agent and a Capitol Police Officer)

    Parent
    Does this bill have spousal notification (none / 0) (#17)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:14:16 PM EST
    in it? I thought I saw that somewhere . . .

    Parent
    I think it has "notify your neighbor's (none / 0) (#19)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:15:49 PM EST
    Catholic priest" in it.

    Parent
    I saw something on that, too (none / 0) (#21)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:16:46 PM EST
    Maybe it is to be in the executive order -- with consultation with the minister, too.

    Parent
    Does that mean that we need to get a minister (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:18:16 PM EST
    along with our mandated insurance now?

    Parent
    I want a Universal Life minister (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:27:42 PM EST
    who gives hot oil massages.

    Parent
    I want to know if the exact wording (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:30:02 PM EST
    of the EO is going to be given out before the vote.

    Parent
    Draw (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:18:31 PM EST
    The EO reaffirms Hyde and the language of the bill which never provided funding for abortion coverage. Existing law is used repeatedly.

    EO  per TPM.

    Parent

    It isn't a draw (5.00 / 6) (#38)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:36:39 PM EST
    when a Democratic President chooses to betray Democratic values to placate a Democrat that never believed in those values to begin with.

    Parent
    You're right (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by CoralGables on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:45:41 PM EST
    it's a win. They gave Stupak nothing for his vote other than acknowledging that the over 30 year old Hyde amendment was still in place which we all knew anyway.

    Parent
    It isn't a win, it's a lose (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:56:19 PM EST
    Core principles are important. The WH can spin this as same ol' same ol' but I guarantee you that anyone who actually believed in the principle of allowing the woman a right to choose isn't going to be buying what he's selling.

    When he signs this order, he'll be losing my vote. I will not vote for someone who can not stand and fight for the Democratic core principle of choice and the right for women to determine their own destiny. I can guarantee you I ain't alone either.

    Parent

    We still wait to see (none / 0) (#25)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:20:01 PM EST
    what happens when Republicans offer Stupak-Pitts in the Motion to recommit. Unless there's an agreement to vote that down, we're on our way to living with the Senate bill.

    Parent
    Differences (none / 0) (#27)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:22:09 PM EST
    between Hyde amendment and executive order.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:22:32 PM EST
    from what I've read TPM is just saying that to calm people down. There's supposedly the real thing floating around and it is bad. It expands the conscience clause among other things.

    Parent
    I am prepared to be even more mightily (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:25:03 PM EST
    pissed off.

    Parent
    the conscience clause? (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:27:33 PM EST
    I thought he was going to fix that as in "Don't worry your pretty little heads . . "?

    Parent
    Coming soon: a nine-month waiting (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:33:04 PM EST
    period for reflection and consultation.

    Parent
    Counseling for men who want to (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    keep their children, and lawyers to help them force the womb to stay in business.

    Parent
    I don't believe so (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:48:25 PM EST
    The executive order language reaffirms current law.  

    Under the Act, longstanding Federal laws to protect conscience (such as the Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. §300a-7, and the Weldon Amendment, Pub. L. No. 111-8, §508(d)(1) (2009)) remain intact

    Would someone read the thing and tell me where the difference is?  I don't see an expansion.

    Parent

    That's what I heard (none / 0) (#30)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:24:29 PM EST
    in what Stupak said.  I think it does go farther.

    Too far for this voter, but that is no change.

    We will see if it is too far for many voters.

    Parent

    Link is the real thing (none / 0) (#39)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:38:41 PM EST
    The link is to the actual executive order.

    Stupak got away with the restrictions on the exchanges.

    The Act maintains current Hyde Amendment restrictions governing abortion policy and extends those restrictions to the newly-created health insurance exchanges. Under the Act, longstanding Federal laws to protect conscience (such as the Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. §300a-7, and the Weldon Amendment, Pub. L. No. 111-8, §508(d)(1) (2009)) remain intact and new protections prohibit discrimination against health care facilities and health care providers because of an unwillingness to provide, pay for, provide coverage of, or refer for abortions.

    There are 180 days left to determine how the segregation of funds will be handled.  I am hopeful there can be some workarounds, maybe thru paperwork requirements instead of a more cumbersome requirement to write two checks.

    Parent

    This sounds suspiciously like (none / 0) (#48)
    by cenobite on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:49:48 PM EST
    Making sure that Sanders' clinic funds can go to Catholic clinics and hospitals.

    Principles? It's all about the Benjamins.

    Parent

    Were the funds ever (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:52:48 PM EST
    blocked?  We have Catholic clinics that provide necessary care.  They may only get state funds and not federal.  The good thing is Stupak and the bishops wanted twisted language that would lead the way to ban funds from Planned Parenthood.  He didn't get away with it.  That's a good.

    Parent
    Don't be so rational, Walden (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:04:20 PM EST
    We're supposed to be railing about how this is going to send women back to back-alley abortions now.

    Parent
    Yeah you're right (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:22:20 PM EST
    We're all so darn mean for expecting someone who ran on a platform that say it believes in a womans right to choose to actually NOT sign something that pretty much says if the person treating her disagrees with that decision then "too bad."

    The fact that the Republicans before him are the ones who actually came up with the idea, doesn't excuse him condoning it or codifying it.

    Parent

    Well . . . seeing as it now extends to (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:31:12 PM EST
    the "exchanges", wouldn't that also bring up the possibility it would also effect how many "private" plans wouldn't offer it as a means of accounting ease? With the shrinking middle class (and shrinking wages) and all, I would think Dems/Liberals/Progressives would/should be concerned about how many more women will be effected . . . now and in the future. What about all those young women who will be using the exchanges. You know, those great young people who's money they can't wait to get their hands on . . .  women of childbearing age and all.

    Parent
    HSS Enforcement (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:34:59 PM EST
    The EO states that the regulation of the segregation of funds is to be determined by the HHS.  They have 180 days to develop policy.

    There is an opportunity to deal with the funds thru paperwork.  For example... here's a what if.  Say a woman qualifies for a subsidy.  The woman pays $5000 for a policy that includes abortion coverage.  On a supplemental tax form the woman claims $4900 for the policy without abortion coverage and receives a tax credit or refund (whatever amount someone qualifies for and it is paid for) for the $4900.  The HHS could require insurers in the exchange to list the policy information on a specific line item that the qualified individual would enter on a specific line item on their tax forms.  Seems workable to me.  

    I am much more at ease that this is under the HHS rather than under the control of the Conservadems in the Congress.

    Parent

    I don't think it's unreasonable to (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:31:24 PM EST
    lack trust. The EO does not exist until Obama writes and signs it. Someone claimed the exact wording is available now. Is that really true?


    Parent
    Oh ok. I see the text exists. (none / 0) (#86)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    The practical effect is clearly to expand the scope of the HYDE amendment--no question.

    Parent
    Does it expand the scope of the (none / 0) (#89)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:52:51 PM EST
    scope of the language in the Senate bill?

    Parent
    Isn't that what happened in Connecticut? (none / 0) (#58)
    by cenobite on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:58:16 PM EST
    That earned Lieberman his nasty nickname?

    The state passed a law saying that if you provided emergency care using state funds you had to offer emergency contraception, and the Catholic hospitals went into a hate frenzy?

    This sounds like preemption to me.

    Parent

    Darn (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by christinep on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:53:45 PM EST
    As an old-time Democrat and a old-time Catholic, hey.... All I can say is that it has been interesting. Seriously. One day a few weeks ago (after being at a Lenten retreat) I was talking with my representative Diana DeGette (a woman for whom I have the greatest respect)at the annual Jefferson/Jackson Democratic dinner and the pre-dinner cocktail party about finding a way to get a resolution so that we could get to healthcare. (Also: Repeated the same message to the Colorado Chair Pat Waak and to the 3rd District Congressman John Salazar. Salazar--brother of Ken--earlier found himself "talked to" by his priest.) Funny thing: A week later, last Sunday, I had a somewhat similar conversation with the Archdiocesan auxiliary Bishop Conley after Mass. Mostly, my point was: If both "sides" wanted to maintain the status quo on the Hyde Amendment--as both had continuously claimed--then, a statement of intent via signing statement, legislative intent record or somesuch order made sense. For those of us who have always been liberals--in the Democratic Party and in the Church, it can be anguish to believe and push for a respectful agreement. Cream City: I've always liked to read most of your comments. But, please try to remember that there are genuine differences on ways to get to a result because we are not all the same. (Oh, btw, someday I'll mention some background about my history of feminism. Trust me; it is genuine.)

    Parent
    Do tell how to get the result (3.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    of abiding by Democratic principles when they are abandoned.

    This does not have a d*mn thing to do with feminism, by the way.  Nor with Buddhism or Zorastroism -- nor Catholicism.  

    It is about realism.  About how a party can claim to be one thing but then be something else and expect respect.  

    Well, actually, that is a question for Catholics these days, isn't it . . . but I really do not want to know how you reconcile those realities.

    Parent

    Interesting (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by christinep on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 11:11:28 PM EST
    Because I always hsave been a realist. Realism means different things to different people. I certainly do not presume your ideals are at odds with how you reconcile life's challenges. (As I noted, we all do things a bit differently depending upon our beliefs, our equally valid beliefs.)

    Parent
    I don't have a dog in this hunt, but (none / 0) (#132)
    by observed on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 06:24:45 AM EST
    "our equally valid beliefs" is just a bit much.
    I don't know if this bill will restrict women's access to abortion, although I expect it will.
    I do know  that if two people both say they favor women's rights, and one of them favors a bill which restricts them (speaking hypothetically), then that person supports women's rights less.


    Parent
    IF (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by christinep on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 04:13:52 PM EST
    If the Executive Order can be shown to change adversely the legal rights stemming from Roe v. Wade, then I definitely agree that my position noted above would be phony/speaking out of both sides of my mouth/etc. But, observed, you acknowledge that you are "speaking hypothetically." And, I acknowledge that you are being honest in saying that it is supposition. My bottome line (and, this is NOT directed at you): I try to live my life with integrity...so, when it appears that another with a different viewpoint takes exception in a personal and snide way, my reaction is to recoil and respond to what looks to be another's projections about worth/value/beliefs. It is important to respect differences --even in religious belief--& maybe hold back the ridicule a wee bit.

    Parent
    Well-put. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 12:29:33 PM EST
    Wish I had done as well in reply.  Wearying of this nonsense and the snideness of some commenters.

    Parent
    Dog sports, I tell ya, DOG SPORTS! (none / 0) (#15)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:12:19 PM EST
    ABC {grin}

    Watching the dogs made me happy ;)


    Parent

    Surely (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:16:01 PM EST
    you had to know that Obama would cave.

    Parent
    I knew. But no, Obama did not cave (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:17:58 PM EST
    as this is in accord with his own beliefs, clear in the campaign.  It is others who are caving to Obama, Stupak, et al.

    Parent
    You have (4.40 / 5) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:24:26 PM EST
    a point. Everyone has to know how Obama feels about women after his actions of the past two years.

    Parent
    Watching the speeches (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:38:57 PM EST
    on Cspan and thinking about Rove and Lott and co. on the  talking head shows this morning, I'm at the pojnt where the more the Republicans speak against the bill with their idiot lies and talking points, the more I want it passed.

    I know that's not the right attitude, but it is hard to be objective about the actual content of the bill when these people are just ridiculous.

    Not helping (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by star on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:47:36 PM EST
    I tried that too..but at this point , i dont see too much difference between D and R.. it is not a Republican President who is signing an EO against abortion..sigh..

    Parent
    Yeah, that adds the crowning touch (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:06:45 PM EST
    of horrible.

    What a frickin' mess.

    Parent

    Dunno about right, (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by brodie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:50:16 PM EST
    but I do know it's a very human reaction, particularly in a political contest, and particularly when the opponents are a bunch of lying bigoted corporatists trying to protect the indefensible status quo.  

    Something, you figger, has got to be right with this bill given who's against it, even if it looks as lumpy and unappealing as yesterday's leftover oatmeal.

    Parent

    Even if there's nothing (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:06:59 PM EST
    right with the bill, I will not, cannot make common cause with loathesome, lying, stinking (honestly can't think of a strong enough word) people like them.  Can't do it.

    Parent
    Dan Lungren R-CA, (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:13:02 PM EST
    always good for a LOL. Getting passionate about how the Stupak exec order does not override the Hyde Amendment - so people don't be taken in! Just incoherent. Watching him trying to say 'had to have the Hyde' in high dudgeon was pretty funny.

    Parent
    If the cabin had become my (none / 0) (#83)
    by nycstray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    home base, I would have been in his district. Oy. Now at least I'll be in a solid Dem one . . . as solid as one dares to call them that is.

    Parent
    The Marsha Blackburn creature (none / 0) (#111)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:21:23 PM EST
    was on CNN earlier.  When asked if the Republicans might give it a rest for a while and find out whether the bill actually works or not for a few years before trying to repeal it (silly question), she went on a long, long, passionate rant about how -- wait for it -- "public option" health care has never worked anywhere in the world, and just look at the complete failure of the NHS in the U.K.

    Wow.  And nobody on the CNN set made so much as a peep, like, for instance, to observe that THERE'S NO PUBLIC OPTION IN THIS PLAN!!!

    Parent

    Further evidence (none / 0) (#114)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:25:16 PM EST
    that nobody was ever negotiating with the Republicans, who would have made the same arguments no matter what "healthcare reform" was. Democrats kept this from being anywhere close to "socialized medicine."

    Parent
    Heat it up, add some blueberries (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:07:37 PM EST
    ...it's delicious. I can only hope this system is improved over time.

    Parent
    Why does it NOT feel fantastic? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by star on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:40:25 PM EST
    This is what we dems have been waiting for and now that HCR is happening, why does it not feel good at all? I am feeling so so disillusioned.. never expected a Dem president will ever sign an EO like this!.Am so so frustrated and disappointed. Does this president think of no one other than himself???? Why does he have so little regard for the women in his base ??? Hope and change indeed... I am done with this nonsense.. turning TV off for the day.. After having waited and rooted for HCR for a year.,. am too tired to see the actual 'VICTORY' if it can be called that :(
     

    If you are a woman (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:50:29 PM EST
    it isn't a victory, it's a giant step back.

    Parent
    I am a woman (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by star on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:53:29 PM EST
    And it does feel like a huge step backwards. It is not something we expect from a Dem president..

    Parent
    This is what Obama wanted (4.50 / 6) (#61)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:02:06 PM EST
    as the interesting statement from Stupak was that his group's yes votes were not needed.

    So this was the way around the pro-choice women's bloc in the House.  It really was brilliantly planned and implemented by the Republidems like Obama, when you work it through.

    Parent

    I noticed that too (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by star on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:06:54 PM EST
    Why this concession to stupak if they had it in the Bag before then? it is so disgusting. really killed the moment for me. I think I am done and fed up with this administration.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:27:31 PM EST
    Evidently, Larry Summers assured him that women were horrible at math.

    Parent
    A question that will haunt me. nt (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by inclusiveheart on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:00:42 PM EST
    Stupak saved many democrats (none / 0) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:35:41 PM EST

    from being "the vote that passed healthcare" in the fall.  I expected a much closer vote because I expected Stupak from being left out.

    doing it this way could help several democratic in the fall.

    politics sucks.  but its what we got.

    Parent

    Not relevant to point raised. (none / 0) (#108)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:00:19 PM EST
    this point? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:11:14 PM EST
    So this was the way around the pro-choice women's bloc in the House.

    they are voting for it.
    if the leader of the pro choice caaucus and every democratic woman in congress is ok with it, Im ok with it.

    btw
    if you didnt catch the republican freak show/news conference in response to Stupak you should try to find it.  it is truly rare to get so many rare dodos at one mic.

    Parent

    My favorite dingbat (none / 0) (#117)
    by CoralGables on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:32:18 PM EST
    Michele Bachmann (R-MN) said she was "heartbroken" when Bart Stupak said he will vote for the bill.

    Parent
    I am so glad (none / 0) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:34:34 PM EST
    I got that republican news conference on the dvr
    it was amazing

    Parent
    How horrible (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 07:39:58 PM EST
    For Michele to be heartbroken like this :)

    Parent
    Particularly one that (none / 0) (#60)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:59:47 PM EST
    went at such great pains to state he was pro choice and he would be protecting a woman's right to choose. He spent more time protecting a professional's choice to choose on behalf of said woman.

    Parent
    R.I.P. Liz Carpenter (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:50:21 PM EST
    A great woman, a great Dem, and sad to say that it is good that she did not live to see this day.

    Somewhere up there in that great women's restroom in the sky, there must be quite a conversation going on about how much has been screwed up in all that they thought they had accomplished for their "daughters' daughters" today -- and the sons of their sons in the day when it was not so difficult to find good Dem men.

    Washington has been so corrupted (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by SOS on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:04:45 PM EST
    by the money-machine that they don't even bother reading most legislation they vote on....yet people keep absurdly insisting this sham of representative government is actually legit.

    Not much difference (none / 0) (#93)
    by dead dancer on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    Just like there's not much difference anymore between the Democrat and Republican politician; there's not much difference between a politician and an inmate (with a better/expensive lawyer, the inmate would not be an inmate).


    Parent
    How's the Executive Order (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MKS on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:08:20 PM EST
    different from Hyde and exisiting law....

    Does anyone have any concrete differences they can point to?

    Haven't seen the language of the EO yet, ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Yman on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:13:04 PM EST
    ... but if it's consistent with the language in the proposed Stupak Amendment, it is worse than Hyde.

    Parent
    Here's the text (none / 0) (#97)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:15:11 PM EST
    MSNBC with some (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by brodie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:35:49 PM EST
    pretty good coverage so far, including smart panels and some old film/sound clips of health care battles past.

    One they ran a few minutes ago showed JFK in 1962 at MSG trying to make the case for Medicare, noting how "Most of Europe has universal health already, Britain for some 30 yrs now".

    Funny how the public discourse has so devolved that today such a reasonable argument like that can't be made by Dems today -- they'd be accused of being Socialists and French and Big Gubmit types.  

    On the bright side... (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by RAM on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:46:38 PM EST
    It sounds like the wingnuts are starting to eat their own. At least David Frum is pissed. And any time the neofascists give themselves a weggie for any reason, I'm content. And it really is a door Dems ought to keep prying open wider and wider. There's some political hay to be made there.

    Check this out: (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:13:07 PM EST
    From the EO

    Nothing in this Act shall require an otherwise qualified health plan, including an Exchange-participating plan, to cover any items or services to which the issuer, plan sponsor, or purchaser has a moral or religious objection, provided the plan is at least actuarially equivalent to a qualified health plan that covers the essential health benefits

    Doesn't this open the door to practically any refusal of service based on religion???

    FDL says the pro-choice caucus was not even shown a copy of the EO before it was announced.

    Kill da Bill!!

    As far as I know, this bill does not (none / 0) (#99)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:19:14 PM EST
    override all other insurance regulations.

    Nothing in this Act shall require....

    Seems to me the statement applies to what is in this act, and that's it.

    Parent

    But why put the sentence in there? (none / 0) (#100)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:20:34 PM EST
    The language is disturbing.

    Parent
    Because the Republicans have (none / 0) (#115)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:28:10 PM EST
    convinced Stupak and his friends that unless each thing is spelled out repeatedly, the evil pro-abortioners will try to get around it.

    Parent
    Am I blind - I don't see that language (none / 0) (#101)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:25:13 PM EST
    in the test of the EO at the link you posted further up the thread.

    Parent
    text, not test. Sorry. (none / 0) (#102)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:25:30 PM EST
    Ah, I got it. My bad (and FDL's) (none / 0) (#105)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:38:46 PM EST
    There was an angry post based on the supposed EO text which was released by Kathryn Lopez today.
    Someone in the comments at FDL just posted a link to that a few minutes ago, thinking it was a post on the actual EO, I guess.
    I'm sorry for the misinformation. That wasn't my intent.

    Parent
    Ignore this comment. It's based on (none / 0) (#106)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:39:38 PM EST
    some outdated, incorrect information.

    Parent
    Thanks Observed (none / 0) (#120)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:35:21 PM EST
    After I thought about it I figured it was something like that. Maybe that was in an earlier version and not the final.

    I didn't think you had intent to mislead!

    Parent

    The EO (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Emma on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:52:21 PM EST
    says in it how the Senate bill (referred to as "the Act") is different from Hyde:

    The Act maintains current Hyde Amendment restrictions governing abortion policy and extends those restrictions to the newly-created health insurance exchanges. Under the Act, longstanding Federal laws to protect conscience (such as the Church Amendment, 42 U.S.C. §300a-7, and the Weldon Amendment, Pub. L. No. 111-8, §508(d)(1) (2009)) remain intact and new protections prohibit discrimination against health care facilities and health care providers because of an unwillingness to provide, pay for, provide coverage of, or refer for abortions.

    Large portions of the EO (assuming the text I'm reading from is accurate), like the above quote, seem to be in the nature of a signing statement that purport to explain/clarify the Senate bill anti-choice provisions.  (Without a comparison to the Senate bill, "purports to" is the best analysis I can make.)

    What the EO does re: funding in general:

    I hereby direct the Director of OMB and the Secretary of HHS to develop, within 180 days of the date of this Executive Order, a model set of segregation guidelines for state health insurance commissioners to use when determining whether exchange plans are complying with the Act's segregation requirements, established in Section 1303 of the Act, for enrollees receiving Federal financial assistance. The guidelines shall also offer technical information that states should follow to conduct independent regular audits of insurance companies that participate in the health insurance exchanges. In developing these model guidelines, the Director of OMB and the Secretary of HHS shall consult with executive agencies and offices that have relevant expertise in accounting principles, including, but not limited to, the Department of the Treasury, and with the Government Accountability Office. Upon completion of those model guidelines, the Secretary of HHS should promptly initiate a rulemaking to issue regulations, which will have the force of law, to interpret the Act's segregation requirements, and shall provide guidance to state health insurance commissioners on how to comply with the model guidelines.

    More "signing statement" language on community health centers:

    The Act establishes a new Community Health Center (CHC) Fund within HHS, which provides additional Federal funds for the community health center program. Existing law prohibits these centers from using federal funds to provide abortion services (except in cases of rape or incest, or when the life of the woman would be endangered), as a result of both the Hyde Amendment and longstanding regulations containing the Hyde language. Under the Act, the Hyde language shall apply to the authorization and appropriations of funds for Community Health Centers under section 10503 and all other relevant provisions.

    Again, short of comparisons and legislative analysis, I have no way of knowing if the EO gives a correct statement of the law, including Hyde and "longstanding regulations" to which the EO refers.

    I have read that Hyde doesn't automatically cover all Federal spending and needs to be legislatively extended to apply to specific programs and spending.  IF that's true, the EO expands the reach of Hyde without requiring that legislative extension.

    What the EO does:

    I hereby direct the Secretary of HHS to ensure that program administrators and recipients of Federal funds are aware of and comply with the limitations on abortion services imposed on CHCs by existing law. Such actions should include, but are not limited to, updating Grant Policy Statements that accompany CHC grants and issuing new interpretive rules.

    I got the text off TPM.  In sum, whether the EO does anything other than direct the creation of regulations etc. depends on a close comparison of the EO to the Senate Bill, Hyde, and other existing legislation and restriction.  It's all about legislative interpretation at this point.

    Somebody would have to (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:32:47 PM EST
    prove this to me before I believe it: "Hyde doesn't automatically cover all Federal spending and needs to be legislatively extended to apply to specific programs and spending."

    Sounds too much like GOP anti-choice woofing to me.  I surely don't remember any such qualifiers being discussed about Hyde when it originally passed.

    If you find out where this idea comes from, please do post on it, would you? I can't imagine it's true, but maybe it is.

    Parent

    Reapplied each year (none / 0) (#123)
    by waldenpond on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:44:29 PM EST
    Hyde is reapplied each year.  The objection from NOW is that Hyde is not settled law and they wanted to work with the President and Congress to end Hyde.

    Parent
    And they can (none / 0) (#124)
    by CoralGables on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:50:42 PM EST
    every year. There have been changes made several times since it went into effect.

    Parent
    gyrfalcon (none / 0) (#133)
    by Emma on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 10:43:06 AM EST
    Here's a link to the ACLU page on Hyde.  It seems that specific restrictions get specific legislation, i.e. Hyde applies to Medicaid and other legislation applies to other programs.  Which is to say:  Hyde is NOT a blanket ban on Federal funding for abortion.  At least that's what it looks like to me, anyway.

    Parent
    The current (none / 0) (#134)
    by Emma on Mon Mar 22, 2010 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    Hyde Amendment can be found here.

    The relevant part is this:

    None of the funds appropriated in this Act...shall be expended for any abortion.

    None of the funds appropriated in this Act...shall be expended for health benefits coverage that includes coverage of abortion.

    I just don't know what "this Act" refers to.  And don't really have time to figure it all out.

    Parent

    Away from HCR (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 02:44:04 PM EST
    Is anyone planning on watching "Life" on the Discovery Channel tonight?  It looks like it's going to be amazing - only wish I had HD!

    I will be listening to Gounod's "Faust" (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 02:48:40 PM EST
    on KUSC FM.  Priorities.

    Parent
    Nope, it will be (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 02:58:14 PM EST
    Pacific, Desperate Housewives and Celebrity Apprentice for me.

    Parent
    Taping "Pacific" (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:00:35 PM EST
    I have to be really in the mood and able to focus to watch that.

    Parent
    I am told the animal (none / 0) (#98)
    by hairspray on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:17:27 PM EST
    attacks are pretty brutal.

    Parent
    Mea culpa. Haven't finished book and (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:03:03 PM EST
    book club arrives here at 3:00 p.m.  Back away from the computer!

    Take this for what it's worth (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:06:09 PM EST
    Drudge is reporting:

    Senate Republicans found a provision in the new House health care bill that likely makes it ineligible for expedited 'reconciliation' procedures in the Senate. Dems refused to meet with GOP and Parliamentarian.... Developing....

    Now, I'm not well-versed in what kinds of things they could do, but if someone has an idea, it would be interesting to discuss. And yes, it's Drudge, but who knows with these things?

    Any ideas what he's referring to?

    Even if that's true, the Senate presiding officer (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:20:56 PM EST
    has the last word (subject to Senate majority vote). Of course, we can expect the Republicans to get what they want through whining and complaining. . .

    Parent
    Great classic by (none / 0) (#11)
    by brodie on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:07:26 PM EST
    Crème, even better than the Beatles' Drive My Car.

    It's only flaw being, of course, the grammatically jarring "thinking that I might have drove you too far."

    But, hey, they're rockers and artists and as such are normally given a pass on these things.

    How long before a group of 10 Dem Senators (none / 0) (#57)
    by magster on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    unite to demand an additional concession?  You know it's coming....

    Waaah.. where's BTD? (none / 0) (#59)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 03:59:00 PM EST
    He's probably watching some stupid "historic" b-ball game.

    Ha! Good for him. (none / 0) (#121)
    by ruffian on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:36:22 PM EST
    The new magic number is 218 (none / 0) (#75)
    by Cream City on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:13:02 PM EST
    days to the midterm elections.

    Can't come soon enough (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by cawaltz on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:30:46 PM EST
    I'm glad the Democrats decided for me today what I would use as a deciding factor in determining my vote.

    It's quite helpful. My particular district is R plus 11 and the Democrat in the seat is not long for the world. I sure hope they aren't counting on me getting out the vote for him.

    Parent

    Who's your Rep? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:23:28 PM EST
    Just curious. My district is R plus a lot-don't know the exact number-I will never be rid of Cantor unless I move or he does.

    Parent
    Stupak says only 52 Senators on Reid letter (none / 0) (#78)
    by magster on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:26:18 PM EST
    That is not a lot of breathing room.  Sounded like an unintended disclosure in the interview.

    Only need 50 (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:40:57 PM EST
    plus Biden.

    Parent
    I know, but there's only a margin of 3 (none / 0) (#90)
    by magster on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:53:54 PM EST
    and having watched Stupak become the center of attention, you know that Sen. Nelson or Lieberman are dying to head a posse to blackmail the passage of reconciliation?

    And with deem and pass gone, Obama can just sign the inferior Senate bill and enable delay and broken promises by these same Senators.

    This isn't over yet.

    Parent

    I assume that Nelson and Lieberman (none / 0) (#91)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 04:56:46 PM EST
    are not on the letter.

    In any case, you're right. The Senate bill will become law pretty quickly. If the Republicans manage to pass a Stupak MTR, we'll probably be stuck with it too.

    Parent

    Unless Reid is (none / 0) (#113)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:25:07 PM EST
    a complete and utter incompetent-- which I admit he might well be-- he'll have in his pocket a handful of undeclared "if you really need me" votes on this, just like Pelosi had with the House bill today.

    Parent
    He may be just incompetent (none / 0) (#116)
    by observed on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:29:43 PM EST
    to a normal degree.

    Parent
    Test vote (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 05:10:52 PM EST
    moving the previous question on the rule. about 225 yeas.

    Thanks, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 06:10:47 PM EST
    Love "Badge" and just don't hear it much these days.

    I decided to watch Donnie Brasco instead (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 07:21:25 PM EST


    watching this is like (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 07:23:43 PM EST
    foreplay with an accountant

    I need vodka

    Parent

    Yuppers (none / 0) (#128)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Mar 21, 2010 at 07:38:01 PM EST
    It is for certain martini:30  I learned more from watching Donnie Brasco for the umpteenth time.  I went to the park too with the junior handler who has one of my puppies from last year and we worked our puppies in the crowded park getting them ready for crowded shows.  He's such a good kid, and he has this little sister much smaller than a German Shepherd who nabs ahold of that leash and just takes off and makes them mind her.  She cracks me up, and she means business too.

    Parent