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CNN Poll: Steady Support For Obama Health Care Reform

A CNN poll (PDF) shows that 50% of Americans support President Obama's health care proposals against 45% who are opposed. This is almost the identical result from a month ago. Also pretty much the election results. An interesting bit is the deep generational divide:

"Obama's plan is most popular among younger Americans and least popular among senior citizens," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "A majority of Americans over the age of 50 oppose Obama's plan; a majority of those under 50 support it."

Apparently there is a Laffer Curve in these results (where seniors who already have a public option are against anyone else having a public option.) In any event, we are where we have been all year, it is up to the President to get this done.

Speaking for me only

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    Or Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by The Maven on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:39:16 AM EST
    there are a lot more older Americans out there who want to "keep your government hands of my Medicare".

    Never underestimate the degree to which people can be susceptible to a toxic brew of ignorance and deliberate misinformation.

    Mebbe (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:12:14 AM EST
    I do know that a drive for knowledge often comes from a feeling of need.

    If you already have what you want. you are less driven to find out what a situation really is.

    Parent

    I think that's right (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by MikeDitto on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:50:14 AM EST
    Plus they've been messaging hard to seniors that the Obama plan cuts Medicare coverage, which is false, but does inspire fear in that population.

    Parent
    How is that false? (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:54:08 PM EST
    Obama has said he's going to cut funding to Medicare to help pay for his plan.  He also says that it won't cut services.  People simply don't believe that he can take large amounts of money from medicare while not cutting services.  

    If that were possible why hasn't he already done it?  Cut funding to medicare, show the savings, while proving that no services have been cut.   That would go a long way to reassuring seniors, and others too.  

    Bottom line, seniors do not believe that money will be cut but not services.  

    Parent

    I don't get it (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 05:52:15 PM EST
    Your question is why Obama is trying to convince people his plan will work before passing it, when he could just pass it first thus showing people it will work?  That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

    Parent
    Well, information comes from all (none / 0) (#63)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:47:23 AM EST
    sides.  Such as the Obama administration, which states it is offering a "public option" even though the option is not open to most of the public.

    Parent
    Excuse me, but are you on Medicare? (none / 0) (#145)
    by suzieg on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 01:49:14 AM EST
    My husband is and his doctor of 20 years just dropped him because he won't join a medicare advantage plan. That was a year ago and he has yet to find a family doctor who will accept him. He recently had to turn to a clinic which allows their interns only to treat medicare patients.

    Seniors know Medicare is to be stripped of even more benefits. There is no way anyone could say that Medicare by itself is adequate coverage for all. It is not even adequate for the seniors who rely on it. I would like to see the Obamas and members of Congress try to cover their medical expenses with this so-called "single-payer" program. They would never trade the comprehensive coverage they have for Medicare. Medicare needs to be expanded to cover all basic medical needs. However, that is not in the President's plan for health care reform.

    Listen to what politicians, medical experts and the President say about "cutting waste." Where do they plan to cut it? From those very supplemental program payments to subsidized private insurance plans that make Medicare workable and affordable for low-income seniors. ABC News reported that there is bipartisan support to "squeeze an additional $35 billion out of Medicare over the next decade and larger sums in the years beyond...a step toward fulfilling President Barack Obama's goal of curbing the growth of healthcare spending." (7/28/09 "AP Source: Bipartisan Group Eyes Medicare Savings")

    My husband and I are proud to join the "old" protesters if it means stopping further cuts to Medicare.

    Parent

    Or, they know Medicare is a government program, (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by caseyOR on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:43:45 AM EST
    but they keep hearing Obama and others talk about how they plan to fund health insurance reform with cuts to Medicare. And no one ever explains exactly what those cuts will be. So, the old people are wary, and justifiably so.

    How many times have we all heard Obama insist on the need for "entitlement reform" without ever giving details. The lack of details from the president leaves a giant vacuum that the Repubs and their followers rush to fill.

    Just like Laffer!!! (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:54:13 AM EST
    Um, no.

    Parent
    I don't understand your comment, BTD. (none / 0) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:59:32 AM EST
    What is just like Laffer?

    Parent
    Don't worry about it (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:03:39 AM EST
    Just me writing some nonsense.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    The mandatory (none / 0) (#14)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:07:06 AM EST

    The mandatory end of life counseling services fits right in with that.  It is interesting that the age group that needs health care services the least is most in favor of Obama care, while the age group that depends most on health care services is most opposed.  

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:13:31 AM EST
    The people who principally benefit from the status quo are opposed to change, while the people who principally fund the status quo and get little from it are in favor of change.  Truly a counter-intuitive result!

    Parent
    That;s DEMEANING!! (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:18:27 AM EST
    How dare you!!!!!!!

    Parent
    Excuse me, but what (none / 0) (#67)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:50:31 AM EST
    are people under 50, as a group, going to get from Obama's plan?

    Parent
    You tell me (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:01:10 AM EST
    Aren't you one of the folks who keeps saying that there is no "Obama's plan"?

    Parent
    Um, shouldn't it be Obama's (none / 0) (#77)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:08:41 AM EST
    job to explain his plan, and the job of its supporters to explain why the people who aren't supporting his plan are wrong?

    If I am reading your comments correctly, you're a big supporter of it.  So perhaps you should explain why.  Otherwise, why insult the people who oppose it?

    Parent

    A big supporter of what? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:13:45 AM EST
    I keep reading in the comments that Obama doesn't have a plan, that he made a big mistake by letting Congress do everything, and as a result no one really knows what "Obama's plan" means.  So if you want to ask me whether I'm a big supporter of a specific plan, you need to be clearer about what plan you mean.

    Parent
    Sigh. (none / 0) (#87)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:19:47 AM EST
    I'm a lawyer too, so I well understand the purpose of changing the subject.  But I will repeat.

    You wrote:

    people who principally fund the status quo and get little from it are in favor of change

    within the context of the over 50/under 50 disparity in the poll.  I asked you what it is that people under 50, as a group, will gain from Obama's plan.  Shouldn't be a hard question.

    And as for what is Obama's plan, it seems tiresome to play the game, no?  I mean, we know the house plan, and we know the senate plan (more or less), and we know that the deals behind those plans would not have been approved without the blessing of the Obama administration, and that the final bill will be somewhere in between those plans.  So let's take the House version, then, since that is apparently the most expansive of the plans.  And again I ask, what do people under 50, as a group, gain from that plan?  If you don't have an answer, that's no big deal.

    Parent

    I will take the House plan (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:32:37 AM EST
    I'm not thrilled about the watered-down public option we seem to be getting, but as long as it makes it into the final bill, I think it's actually going to be fairly easy to expand eligibility incrementally as the years go by.

    Younger people actually have the least to fear from an incremental strategy.  It's the folks who need reform more urgently that I'm worried about.  But at a minimum, people under 50 will certainly benefit from the removal of pre-existing conditions.

    I think we would be fools to reject the House plan in its current condition.  We wouldn't be coming back next year to pass a better plan, we'd be coming back in more like 10 years, and there's still no guarantee we'd get it then.

    But to call me a "big supporter" is certainly not accurate.  My support is tepid because it is a tepid plan.  And part of the reason the Democrats are bleeding support right now is that, in their eagerness to find something mushy and palatable and generally acceptable, they've given the base very little to get excited about.  This is not being sold in a base-pleasing way at all.

    Parent

    I think that (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:41:18 AM EST
    this article provides a number of good economic and political counterarguments for saying that the House plan is better than nothing.  For those who don't think that everyone who doesn't support the House plan are fools, I'd recommend reading it.

    And, since 72% of Americans support the introduction of a government run healthcare system that everyone has an option to join, I don't necessarily see why we reaching for that instead would be doomed to failure.  

    Parent

    oops. (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:42:48 AM EST
    Forgot the link to the article.  Sorry.

    Parent
    It's an interesting piece (none / 0) (#114)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    but I don't think it does a lot to answer the question it asks, to wit, is this plan better than nothing?  For the most part it simply discusses ways we could do better (single payer, an earlier starting date) which of course I agree on, but it's a bit of a diversion.

    The author and I simply disagree on the future politics of the issue, which of course is an educated guess on both our parts.  I believe putting even an anemic public option into place will allow the Democrats to successfully run on the message of expanding the public option incrementally.  The author believes passage of the plan would simply serve as a basis for everyone to sweep the health care issue under the rug for the next decade.  I respect where he's coming from, but to me health care is too much of a bread-and-butter Democratic issue for the party not to run on expanded eligibility for the foreseeable future.

    Parent

    Well, if the party (none / 0) (#127)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 02:28:14 PM EST
    will still run on expanded coverage whether or not the bill passes, then it makes sense, IMO, not to rush to pass a bill that could very well make things worse, and not better.

    Building on a system that works (Medicare) and catering to the 72% of Americans who want a government run health insurance avaialable to everyone (Medicare for all) is a political winner.

    Parent

    Without the public option (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:28:58 PM EST
    you have no incremental strategy, because you have nothing to build on.

    I wouldn't have any problem at all with just treating Medicare as the public option and gradually expanding it until everyone is covered, but the party shows no signs of conceptualizing the issue that way, and I'm hardly going to oppose a bill because I think I can single-handedly talk them into a Medicare-for-all strategy.

    Parent

    The latest (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    reports say there will be no public option at all. Conrad says the votes arent there in the senate.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#115)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:15:22 PM EST
    of course I don't want a bill with no public option, but I'm not willing to wave the white flag just yet.  I've said since the primary that the worst of all possible worlds would be an individual mandate with no public option.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    with your last sentence but if what's being reported is correct what we're going to get IS the worst of all possible worlds.

    Parent
    What's the point? (none / 0) (#142)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:04:38 PM EST
    With no public option, what is the point of Obama's plan?  

    We have medicare and medicaid.  What does the current plan have to offer, if no public option?

    Parent

    In other words (none / 0) (#78)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:09:46 AM EST
    You could not answer the question asked of you.

    Parent
    They aren't opposed to positive change! (none / 0) (#138)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:59:46 PM EST
    They just don't want their services cut.  They don't want their doctors to stop taking medicare patients.  If they were going to get more services, if more doctors wanted to take medicare, then seniors would be for it.  It's not change they fear, but change that leaves them worse off than before.  

    Young people don't care as much because many of them aren't spending anything on health care, because they don't need much health care.  That's many of them under 25 don't bother to get insurance, unless on their parent's plans.

    Parent

    Benefit? It could be that you don't know (none / 0) (#146)
    by suzieg on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 02:12:38 AM EST
    anyone personally who depends upon Medicare for their health problems. Or, maybe you have never read US Department of Health and Human Services booklet entitled "Medicare & You" that sets out all the costs and coverage for participants. However, ignorance is no excuse for perpetuating the myth that Medicare is the model health insurance. My husband is a Medicare participant who is FOR single-payer health insurance, let me share a few facts with those who might not be familiar with the current Medicare program.

    Most of the senior citizens I know cannot afford to have Medicare alone. To get the medical services the elderly need, at an affordable price, they must purchase---besides paying monthly premiums to Medicare (for Parts A/B)--- an additional private health insurance policy for Part C. This private Part C insurance covers all those things that Medicare will not cover, and there is no deductible and no payment for a % of the doctor's costs. There is a co-pay for most medical services; as well as a monthly premium. Everyone in Massachusetts (often acclaimed to be the model for national health care reform) is also required by law to purchase prescription drug coverage (Part D) from a private insurance company.Medicare does not provide coverage for annual physical exams. Medicare has no dental coverage; no coverage for eye exams or eyeglasses; no coverage for hearing aids, no coverage for annual physical exams, or foot care.

    For mental health services, Medicare participants must pay 50% of an outpatient therapist's charge. Medicare will cover a "one-time `Welcome to Medicare' physical exam." However, there is a deductible that must be paid first, as well as a charge equal to 20% of the cost of each and every doctor's visit or service. Other services and supplies not provided by Medicare include acupuncture, chiropractic services, several laboratory tests, long-term care, orthopedic shoes, prescription drugs, shots to prevent illness, and some surgical procedures given in ambulatory surgical centers (you can see the entire list of "What's NOT Covered by Part A and Part B" on page 38 of the 2009 edition of the aforementioned "Medicare & You.") For those items that are covered, there is a charge of at least 20% of the medical provider's costs, and a deductible that must be met.

    Given the reality of Medicare's inadequate coverage for basic medical needs, why is it that "progressive" Democrats, as well as the "experts" interviewed daily by the "liberal" media like NPR and Democracy Now, keep saying "what we need is `Medicare for all'." They repeatedly identify Medicare as the successful US "single-payer" program preferred by all its participants.

    The private insurance companies that now provide the supplemental programs, are ready to go along with this. Why? Because the trade off is so much more profitable: mandatory health insurance for all those millions of US citizens not yet insured.

    Conservatives point out that Dodd, Obama and the House Speaker Pelosi (D-CA), are very critical of the Congressional Budget Office report showing that the proposed health care reform proposals drafted in June would cost at least $1.6 trillion. Dodd called the CBO report "unfair" because, among other things, it failed to take into account "A REDUCTION IN FUNDING for elderly care." (See 7/31/09 article by Joe Emanual, "Obama Disputes Studies Saying Overhaul Will Cost Trillions"). Although there seems to be much confusion and not a little mystery about what exactly is in the 1000 page health care bill proposal, it does appear that most in congress--whether on the "left" or "right" of the issue--believe cost savings for this national health care overhaul will come from cuts in Medicare and medical services for the elderly therefore the main reason why seniors will fight against it!

    Parent

    The disparity (none / 0) (#70)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:57:24 AM EST
    among support is simply because Obama is not selling his plan properly - or in my opinion is not selling it at all.

    For those here who feel the disparity of age groups has to do with medicare you are not considering that the majority of the population is not on medicare. Very few boomers are 65+ so most don't have medicare. They have private insurance.

    Parent

    Then where is the 48% coming from? (none / 0) (#139)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 05:01:20 PM EST
    Who is in the 48% group that opposes his plan?  I agree that seniors are not that large of percentage.  So who is it?  

    Parent
    Or maybe (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:58:09 AM EST
    There is so much support among younger people because no one really understands what "Obama's" plan really entails besides the soundbites,a nd older folks, are a little more seasoned and suspicious of any politician talking about a program where the details are nebulous, but the proce tag is high.

    I think it's interesting that there is (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:15:42 AM EST
    so much support for "proposals" that are little more than ideas, and within those ideas, no agreement or specifics on how they will be implemented.  One day, it's the public option, another day it's co-ops instead.  When you explain what is actually in the proposals to people who have only bought the talking points and slogans, the support evaporates.  Try it yourself and see.

    Obama says single-payer is the best way to cover the most people, but it's not American enough, and it needs to be the "traditional" employer-based model, but there are lots of people without jobs, but he wants to require everyone to be covered, so there are all these formulas for subsidies to help people who don't currently have insurance and who don't have much income, but if it's too expensive, or someone is too poor, those people can get waivers, so once again, the poorest - and those most in need of care - will not be covered.  As I understand it, the "cost-sharing" - the amount people will have to pay out-of-pocket on top of premiums before the insurance company picks up the cost of anything - is something like $5,000 per individual and $10,000 per family.  Does he not hear the people shouting the obvious, that if they had $5K of $10K they could just go to the doctor or the pharmacy and PAY FOR what they need?  Hello?

    I don't know, am I the only one who thinks we've seen all this before - oh, look!  Isn't that the same mom-and-pop store we passed an hour ago? - and we're just taking a long trip right back to where we started without ever getting close to where we thought we needed to go?  


    Parent

    I'm with you, Anne. (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:23:07 AM EST
    And it's not just that people are expected to support a plan with no specifics.  They also take it upon themselves to deride and smear anyone, from any perspective, who disagrees with them.

    Parent
    This is a good point (none / 0) (#98)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:34:11 AM EST
    Gotta check my typins (none / 0) (#15)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:07:12 AM EST
    "price " tag is high.

    Parent
    Abolish Medicare! (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:10:16 AM EST
    hmm, a generational divide developing in the comments thread.

    Parent
    Well, if you mean me (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:33:11 AM EST
    No - I don't want to abolish Medicare.  And I'm certainly not old enough to get Medicare - I have an employer sponsored plan.  It's pretty good, especially for catastrophic coverage, but I wouldn't say I'm "completely satisfied" with it.

    All this poll points out is that people who do not avail themselves regularly of the health care system may have a little rosier idea of what "health insurance reform" is, while people who constantly use the system, may be a little more jaded about words coming from politicians.

    Parent

    Of course I do not mean you (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:39:50 AM EST
    Though I can not say that your last graf makes sense to me.

    Experience with the status quo surely does not provide you with dissatisfaction with changing the status quo.

    Parent

    Maybe not (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:43:07 AM EST
    But older Americans (those over 50, according to the poll) have been down this path beofre with politicians.  Heck - I'm 40, and I believe that health care in this country is going to more screwed up than ever after some version of this plan gets passed.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:24:51 AM EST
    IMO medicare (none / 0) (#72)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:59:03 AM EST
    has little to do with the poll results. In fact statistics would back me up on that.

    Parent
    Deep generational divide is understandable (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:12:27 AM EST
    Those on Medicare (many of which are fixed-income folks) have substantial out of pocket costs today.  They pay a monthly premium (about $100) and have deductible ($135) and coinsurance (20% of Medicare Approved Payment Amt) to contend with.  These are only Part B physician/professional charges.  Hospital & Inpatient stay stuff has it's own set of deductibles and coinsurance.  All this talk about reducing costs in Medicare and you can easily understand their concern.

    One other point, the survey also indicates

    Your health insurance coverage:
    Satisfied 74%

    For all the talk about how crappy insurance companies are, 74% approval rating seems extraordinarily high to me.

    Let's assume (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:15:37 AM EST
    that you have good coverage from your employer, but you are terrified that if you lose your job then you're not going to be able to afford treatment for your expensive health condition.

    Would such a person tell a pollster they were satisfied with their health insurance coverage?  Yes, they probably would.  Doesn't mean the system is necessarily working for them.

    Parent

    Yes, but (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:28:27 AM EST
    it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not working for them either.

    Parent
    Of course it does (none / 0) (#57)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:42:29 AM EST
    if they lose their job, which could happen for a whole host of reasons outside their control, they'd be absolutely screwed.  That's an indefensible system.

    Doesn't change the point that right now, if you asked them if they're satisfied with their insurance coverage, they'd most likely think "yeah, all my claims get paid on time" and say yes.  Doesn't mean anyone can take this poll result and say "see, a large majority of Americans are fine with the status quo!"

    Parent

    Not what I'm saying either (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:49:19 AM EST
    However, the clamor for dismantling of the health insurance industry seem unwarranted.  Of course, there are things that can be improved as with any business.

    Parent
    struck me too (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:16:51 AM EST
    one thing, I think "satisfied" is a pretty vague qualification.  also I think its likely that that many people are satisfied because they have never actually used their insurance - or at least not recently - enough to have found out if they like it or not.

    I, on the other hand, have.  and I would say that I am probably "satisfied" with my particular insurance coverage.  its the heath care system that is unsatisfactory.

    also a large number are probably happy to have any coverage at all.

    Parent

    Ding, Ding, Ding (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:29:33 AM EST
    its the heath care system that is unsatisfactory.


    Parent
    Does it? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:16:19 AM EST
    It is significantly lower than satisfaction with Medicare and Medicaid. 26% WHO HAVE private health insurance are dissatisfied. 1 in 4. That's pretty awful. And let's not even discuss the 12% (according to the poll) who do not even have insurance.

    And yet you write a bit about how bad Medicare is.

    Parent

    Bad is reletive (none / 0) (#32)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:23:40 AM EST
    If a company provides good services but is bankrupt (which both Medicaid and Medicare are) then is is good?

    Of course it isn't.

    That's the problem.  They work good because they are insolvable.   They can't be sustained.   They also can't be sustained because people now want to add millions of people on to the rolls.  

    If a company was bankrupt but decided to produce more product with no buyers would that also be "good".  Of course it wouldn't.

    Progressives aren't even acknowledging the fact that none of this can be afforded.   We can't add people to the system and contain costs.  It's impossible.   Even if we buy the the idea that all of this can be done with out adding to the current deficit what about the fact that Medicaid and Medicare are broke right now in the long term?  

    All of this added debt will come at the expense of our deficit and economy.   We simply can't afford it.

    Whether the system is "good" or not right now is irrelevant.

    Parent

    Hmm (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:29:57 AM EST
    the Government is bankrupt?

    Bad is unsatisfied I suppose in your construct?

    You know what is funny to me? I actually do not have a strong opinion on health care. And you know why that is? Because I have health insurance and for the most part, it has not had a big effect on my life, one way or the other.

    Selfish of me I know.

    But what drives me a bit on this issue now is the ridiculous and dishonest nonsense that Republicans trot out on the issue. Stuff even I, who really does not pay that much attention, knows is just lies.

    The "we can't afford it" lie is the one that really galls me. We could afford the Iraq Debacle. We could afford Bush's tax cuts. Hell, we could afford Bush's prescription drug giveaway. But NOW we can't afford expanding health care.

    Such bullsh*t. It makes me a strong supporter of health care reform when before I did not really feel strongly about it.

    Parent

    You assume I support the debacle in Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:40:18 AM EST
    You assume wrong.

    I support Iraq if it can be afforded.

    It cannot.

    I support all government services if they can be afforded. I acknowledge that our federal government can run a slight deficit because it controls the money supply but I don't support the reckless spending that started under Bush and is continuing under Obama.

    We have an 11 trillion dollar debt and Obama is just getting started.

    At what point will anyone, republican or democrat acknowledge that we are broke, over extended, living beyond our means, etc....

    Is there just no limit to how much the government can spend?  If that's your opinion then agree to disagree but every government program, solution and promis should start and end with how it's going to be paid for and what's going to be given up to do it.  

    I do have a personal health story and you can search recent posts to read it.   In short I am a firm believer that in any other country I would have died unless I could have afforded to come and see a doctor in the US.  Simple as that.  I would also have died even being in the US if I hadn't had the people around me to tell me that I shouldn't be listening to the two doctors that told me I was terminal.  What if one of those doctors had gotten to a bureaucrat in Washington?  What would have happened then?

    That's really irrelevant anyway.  We simply can't afford what Obama is promising.   We can afford government health care.  Just not the healthcare we are all clamoring for.

    Parent

    Good for you (none / 0) (#58)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:42:36 AM EST
    the one Republican who said we could not afford the Bush tax cuts, the Iraq Debacle and the Bush prescription drug benefit.

    You are a lonely man.

    Parent

    No I'm a libertarian (none / 0) (#62)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:45:21 AM EST
    Not exactly lonely but not covered up in friends either.

    Parent
    RE friends: you only need (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:19:00 AM EST
    a handful.  The rest are acquaintences.

    Parent
    The U.S. Treasury is bankrupt now? (none / 0) (#36)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:25:55 AM EST
    Uh oh, I guess we'll have to cancel most of the defense department.

    Parent
    11 Trillion dollars (none / 0) (#44)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:32:48 AM EST
    Is our debt

    I don't know what other definition of broke you need.

    Parent

    How about (none / 0) (#46)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:35:38 AM EST
    the inability to meet debts as they come due, which is everyone else's definition of bankrupt?

    By your standards everyone who graduates college with student loans is bankrupt.  Uh, no.

    Parent

    Insolvent? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:37:59 AM EST
    Nah, not that either. That taxing power is pretty bountiful.

    Parent
    Have people stopped buying our debt? (none / 0) (#47)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:35:45 AM EST
    Not broke, I'd say.

    Parent
    C'mon man (none / 0) (#43)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:32:41 AM EST
    any other time you'd be touting 74% approval on one of these "pols who are pols" as a good thing.  I know it doesn't fit the narrative, but we should be able to give credit where credit is most likely due.  Maybe we should be trying to develop a narrative that tells the truth and tweaks what's not working instead of attempting to denigrate and entire industry.

    Parent
    For a service? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:36:54 AM EST
    If a business is only satisfying 75% of its customers, it's business is not in good shape.

    Parent
    Counter point (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:49:39 AM EST
    If 75% think something works and 25% think it doesn't is it fair to change the system for the 25%?

    That's the rub.

    Is it fair for the gov't to blow up the system to maybe benefit the 25%?

    Don't know.  Make the argument.

    Parent

    Elections have consequences (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:54:09 AM EST
    Or so I have been told.

    Parent
    Correct and if the governing (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:04:55 AM EST
    party crams through legislation and policies that nobody wants then the next one will as well.

    Just ask the republicans.

    Parent

    Not in good shape (none / 0) (#69)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    sounds like an opinion.  Granted, there are things that can be improved, e.g. removal of pre-existing conditions as a determining factor, but in most other things 3 out of 4 ain't bad.  Most people I know would go see a movie that has 3 out of 4 stars.

    Parent
    Well, the good news, (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:39:53 AM EST
    IMO, is that 22% fewer people approve of Obama's plan than approve of a government run public plan that is available to everyone.

    So, I would think that would mean the best way for Obama to get "it" done would be to scrap his current plan and do what the public overwhelmingly wants, right?

    Where Obama (none / 0) (#74)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:03:36 AM EST
    and congress screwed up is trying to do everything at once and as a result came up with a unpalatable price tag.

    They should have entrenched that public plan first which would have cost very little and then addressed the uninsured.

    The most important element here is introducing the new infrastructure and getting it in place. Once it was in place then funding the uninsured would have been easier and could have been done either in waves or in more innovative ways that masked the true cost.

    Parent

    Um, that's exactly (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:11:41 AM EST
    backwards, IMO.  My point is that 72% of the public actually wants it done all at once.  Create a government run plan that is available to everyone.  22% more people want that over the the unworkable patchwork they are creating that actually will be less cost efficient (as it is essentially a big giveaway to private insurance) and will undercut the ability to create publicly funded health care.

    Parent
    72% of the public??? (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:32:58 AM EST
    How's that when only 50% support it at all? You are using fuzzy math.

    Parent
    No. (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by dk on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:45:32 AM EST
    72% of the public support a government run plan that is open to everyone.  In other words, a real public option.  Only 50% (according to this poll) support Obama's fake "public option" that, according to CBO, at most would be open to 10 million people 10 years from now.  And, since it would not be open to everyone, it would not be economically sustainable, as opposed to a real public option that would not only be economically sustainable but would actually bring overall health care costs down.

    Parent
    Yes, the "public option" (none / 0) (#104)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:01:13 AM EST
    is now formulated so as to send it out to fight with both hands tied behind its back. Decoupling reimbursements from Medicare, the latest wrinkle in the House, took care of one hand.  The remaining hope is that stealth is still in its corner.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#107)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:04:54 AM EST
    now that I understand exactly what you meant by 72% then it makes my case for a public option to be put in place first and then deal with funding the uninsured.

    The major hurdle we have now with Obama's plan is the price tag which almost entirely consists of funding the uninsured. While the public option portion costs relatively nothing.

    Now a public option by itself, as I sugest, would not be a cakewalk to pass but at least cost would not be the objection. Once that public option is entrenched we then have a place to put the uninsured into as I said in my original post.

    Parent

    It's not (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:16:17 PM EST
    politically sustainable either.

    Parent
    Polls...statistics...and liars (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Pragmatist on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:48:12 AM EST
    As a small business owner, I'm tried of the politicalization of this issue.  Reform is needed, but we certainly don't need the European model.  Why don't we start with tort reform?  Perhaps a health court to determine the merits of a case.  Clearly there are cases that should never see the light of day: e.g.; the crack addict who forgoes prenatal care and delivers a still born -- then sues the Dr & hospital.  Why penalize a business who provides a 'Cadillac plan' plan for their employees.  I provide such a plan.  What do I do cut benefits so that I'm not penalized?  Also, regarding reform: I remember when insurance was used for major surgeries, ER visits, and to prevent financial catastrophe.  Now, any trip to the Dr falls under insurance.  Why?  Why don't we use medical insurance like we use homeowners or auto insurance.  We don't expect our auto insurance to cover gas, oil, brakes, etc.  It's to assist us in an accident.  Shouldn't medical insurance be utilized in the same manner?  I wish the buffoons in DC would remember that they are United States Senators/Congressman, perform a cranial-rectal extraction, and work for the citizens of this country.

    Yes who brought the politics into um (none / 0) (#105)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:02:33 AM EST
    politics?

    Hello Mr. Broder!!

    Parent

    Yes, that's my point... (none / 0) (#148)
    by Pragmatist on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 06:29:51 AM EST
    The buffoons in DC don't remember that they are United States Senators/Congressman and work for the citizens of this country. They are too concerned about voting the 'party line' and getting re-elected than 'doing their duty'.  

    Parent
    One fish, two fish ... (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 01:36:01 PM EST
    red fish, blue fish.

    This poll just demonstrates a party line attitude.

    Attributing a "Lafler Curve" (2.00 / 1) (#23)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:15:34 AM EST
    to the poll results to all seniors is not only demeaning but also likely to be a misinterpretation.  The euthanasia for cost-savings and the deliberate confusion of government messing with Medicare are, of course, among scare tactics of opponents.   However, the vagueness of the impact on existing Medicare by the proposed legislation creates fertile ground for fear among those with an immutable preexisting condition, old age. It is not constructive to build up one segment of health insurance/care by tearing down another.  Even Dr. Krugman in a recent article rather cavalierly treats the funding for the health care plan as being, in about equal parts, taxes and elsewhere. Elsewhere being Medicare. Of course, there are economies and efficiencies to be gained in the Medicare, including failures such as advantage plans, lab lest coordination, preventive care and penalties for hospital acquired MRSA infections.  Real information, other than platitudes such as 'we should not be paying more for less care', would go a long way toward not only clarifying, but changing opinions.  Indeed, if the poll question asked seniors if they would support Medicare for all, my guess is that it would yield a different result.

    Demeaning? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:17:20 AM EST
    How so?

    Everyone is selfish. EVERYONE.

    You are. I am.

    This is getting ridiculous.


    Parent

    The pdf (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:15:24 AM EST
    of the poll you posted shows selfishness has nothing to do with what people want.

    Most polled are more concerned about helping other people than helping themselves. Read what you link to.

    Parent

    Here again are you? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:33:11 AM EST
    Oh well.

    Parent
    Somebody has to (none / 0) (#99)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:39:28 AM EST
    bring up the facts of the poll.

    All this talk in this thread about older people and medicare is unfounded if it is in regards to the poll because the poll does not address medicare.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:55:39 AM EST
    Interestingly enough the poll reflects generosity rather than selfishness, although as a truism you are correct.

    44% percent believes that the plan will help others beside themselves.

    30% believe that the plan would help themselves and their families.

    Coupled with the fact that a majority of people under 50, who are in less in need of Health Care but would still be paying for Obama's plan are for it confirms that this group is not acting in a selfish way.

    Parent

    That does not prove generosity (5.00 / 0) (#128)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 02:46:40 PM EST
    45% are opposed to the plan.

    How many of the 44% who think it will help others support the plan?

    Sorry, but you folks are not reading the numbers correctly.

    Parent

    Speculation (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:45:30 PM EST
    CNN did not provide their demographic breakdown, other then their selective narrative, in order to really know.

    Just the fact that a majority of those under fifty support the plan suggests that those paying in and not using it are ok and being somewhat altruistic.

    More likely that it is a non issue for them, and easy to be generous about since they are paying $$ anyway and not using it. While those who are older and using health care a lot are afraid of losing benefits.

    Parent

    Yes, it can be construed to reflect (none / 0) (#140)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    generosity, as you pointed out, or at least,  register concern for others. But the data is, to me, not enough to prove the case either way. But we do know that groups not directly affected by extended health care support it for others.  Those eligible for Medicare, for example, may have neither children or grandchildren who benefit from CHIP, but firmly support it; and, probably, some that do not.

    Parent
    That is my interpretation (none / 0) (#122)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:57:27 PM EST
    as well. I am unsure, however, of  the 'truism' of selfishness in the context of human progress.  While I agree that most are self-centered,  there are some who are selfless, although these may be saints.  Never-the-less,  I think selfishness needs to be in some order of balance with altruism in a democracy.  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#124)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 01:05:28 PM EST
    To better expand the truism, healthy people act out of self interest. For the many who are enlightened among us, altruism is an act of self interest.

    Parent
    One cynical observation (1.00 / 2) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:40:36 AM EST
    is that those on Medicare only make up 18% of the population, but consume healthcare resources beyond their numbers. They must know this, and the figure they'll lose out if everyone has access to government coverage.

    In other words, "I've got mine!" They're set up perfectly to be Republicans, even though they're loving their big government program.

    Not only cynical, (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:24:46 AM EST
    but mean, to boot.  "I got mine" may really be I fear that mine will be taken away,  if  I lose my Medicare  I will die, as I have no money for health care, --or a number of other intentions.

    Parent
    Shame on you, Andgarden (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:38:22 AM EST
    Unwarranted (none / 0) (#60)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:43:32 AM EST
    Your original comment (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:17:46 AM EST
    was unwarranted because you have no facts or statistics to back up your ridiculous claim.

    So let's say it was an unwarranted opinion.

    Parent

    Funny coming from you (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:20:03 AM EST
    my comment is true (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by ChiTownMike on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:22:27 AM EST
    probably also (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:44:42 AM EST
    roughly the same 18% circulating the "Obama is the antichrist" emails.

    Parent
    Assuming they understand email (1.33 / 3) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:45:12 AM EST
    Enough with bashing the old folks. (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by caseyOR on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:47:15 AM EST
    My god, talk about perpetuating stereotypes.

    Parent
    Pretty sure (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:53:49 AM EST
    that was not directed at old folks.

    But at extreme crazy Republicans.

    Parent

    who (none / 0) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:00:40 AM EST
    happen to mostly be old folks.

    Parent
    Republican Seniors (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:32:06 AM EST
    Well, sort of.

    According to this Gallup poll, Repubs do best among Gen X..."including in particular those in their late 30s and early 40s. Republicans also show greater support among older Americans in their late 60s."

    But then:

    · Seniors have a more mixed pattern of party identification, with Republicans gaining on a relative basis among those in their late 60s, but with Democrats doing better as Americans age into their 70s and early 80s.


    Parent
    Is that true? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:11:16 AM EST
    I do not know.

    Parent
    Over 65 (5.00 / 7) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:37:51 AM EST
    have always been, so I've read for decades, the Democrats' most loyal voting bloc after African-Americans.

    I think what folks are maybe failing to realize is the helplessness of most seniors.  Unless you're pretty rich, whatever you've got when you retire or have to stop working is all you're ever going to get.  No more options, no more maybe a better job down the road.  The income you've got is all the income you're ever going to have, and in normal economic times it keeps getting eaten up by inflation.  You know for an absolute certainty that you are going to have an increasing number of health problems, and increasingly expensive ones.

    If seniors are afraid of health care reform, it's not "I've got mine, Jack," it's "Oh, please, please, please, don't rip a gaping hole in my safety net."

    A lot of seniors are hearing the right-wing crap, but even more of them are hearing Obama et al make constant references to "reining in" Medicare spending.

    What do you think they think that means?

    Parent

    Yes, this my reading as well. (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:58:15 AM EST
    On the one hand, seniors are being told that Medicare is in trouble financially just to care for seniors and some physicians, for example are refusing to take patients,  and on the other, that there is enough 'fat' in it to fund over half of the cost of the proposed extension.   The circumstances are ripe for fear tactics--most of which could be avoided with budgetary specifics.  But, these are not forthcoming, so far.

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:19:22 AM EST
    Just talking to my granmdother the other day - she's 90 and still going strong, always voted Dem and even worked in Pennsylvania local politics many years ago - but we got to talking about health care and she said she was a bit anxious, because not only was some of my grandfather's GM pension payment cut, now she had to worry about Medicare being cut, and she didn't know what she was going to do.

    Parent
    That's not really true actually (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:41:07 AM EST
    The Helplessness of Seniors (none / 0) (#79)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:10:21 AM EST
    I thought that most of the personal wealth in this country right now is in the hands of seniors, or at least that as a group, they're pretty well heeled.

    I thought that children, on the other hand, were the most likely age demographic to be living in poverty.

    Is that not true?

    I know, anecdotally, there are many seniors on extremely fixed incomes with only medicare to rely on for health coverage. But I know many more who are quite comfortable.

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:20:42 AM EST
    a few skew the average and now seniors are wealthy?

    LOL, come with me child, I'll show you what's true.

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#106)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:03:34 AM EST
    Show me what's true.

    That's why I was asking.

    You got numbers?

    Parent

    I don't have numbers (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:24:37 AM EST
    but bear in mind that that "personal wealth" probably counts investments and a home-- iow, assets versus income.  It takes a pretty big chunk of change to provide a small income.  And let's not forget what's happened to those investments in the last two years.

    Rising real estate values hit retired home owners really hard in the pocketbook, too, as a result of skyrocketing property taxes.  I note that property taxes don't seem to have come down much since property values have fallen, either.

    I suspect you're right that there are far more children in this country living in real poverty than there are seniors.  But the point I'm trying to get across is that seniors are by definition at a dead end.  They have no ability to increase their income, only to watch it wither away.  It's an extremely scary place to be for anyone of moderate income, never mind low income.

    And again, seniors are acutely aware that they are looking forward with near 100 percent certainty to increasingly expensive health problems down the road.

    Parent

    Which is why CA's Prop. 13 (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:26:41 AM EST
    was a boon to senior's who own homes.

    Parent
    A Non Snarky Reply (none / 0) (#111)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:53:10 AM EST
    like yours is far more persuasive.

    Still...I think you underestimate the options available to retired people with assets vs. those of people with few, if any, actual assets and ongoing overwhelming fiscal challenges related to child rearing, low or no benefits employment and health insurance that is non-existent or inadequate.

    Please understand: I'm not interested in raiding existing public health care programs or setting up meaningless warfare across generational, class, or any other kinds of lines. I'm just skeptical about classifying seniors as fiscally 'helpless' as a group.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:20:19 PM EST
    You have to look beyond the ads for retirement communities and ED pills. This is not meant as snark, but there's obviously a message being sent there.  

    Look at the numerous stories and studies of the number of people (many seniors themselves) who are having to take care of aging parents and putting kids though college at the same time.  

    The median household income (2007) for those under 65 (which includes people from 15 years up) was $56,545 - for those over 65, the medianhousehold income was $28,305. [And yes, 18% of children under 18 live in poverty in the US, compared to 9.7% of those over 65. (From the US Census Bureau)]. However, I would argue that there are more options available for children living in poverty (via their parents), than for seniors living on $28K a year, and having higher than average medical costs.

    And, many seniors may be physically helpless to go out and seek the help they need, whereas a young parent more than likely, has the ability to go out and try to find answers for help.

    Parent

    Many seniors (none / 0) (#119)
    by Steve M on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:29:38 PM EST
    derive income from tax-free sources, or simply spend down their savings over a period of years.  So I think it gets very tricky to measure the actual financial condition of seniors.

    It's one reason that means-testing Social Security, which I don't support in any event, is a logistical nightmare.  For most people, you can just look at their income; but a senior might have a million dollars and no income other than interest.  As the Medicaid rules make plain, it's a much more challenging inquiry.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:40:16 PM EST
    But I know a lot more seniors who do not have millions in retirement and are doing "okay" (if their houses are paid off) or are struggling.  It think the "milionaire retiree" story is a bit overblown.  

    But maybe I don't run in the right circles!

    Parent

    I'm not underestimating anything (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 01:00:48 PM EST
    versus anything else.  I'm making no comparisons.

    I'm just trying to make younger folks think a little bit about how terrifying it is to be old and with no economic future.  When you're past working age, things can either stay the same or get worse.  There is no better.

    Sure, you can gamble on how long you're likely to live and start living off the principal of your investments, if you have any.  You can sell your home and leave your family history and a big chunk of your self behind and move into an apartment-- if you have a home.

    Do you imagine those things aren't terrifying and excruciatingly painful?  And why should people who are old and increasingly frail and unable to work anymore after working their entire lives be expected to accept those prospects in order to simply survive?

    All I'm arguing against is the to me insane concept some people seem to have of comfortable and sanguine elders with an "I've got mine, Jack" attitude towards everybody else.


    Parent

    Whoa! (none / 0) (#129)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 03:35:09 PM EST
    And why should people who are old and increasingly frail and unable to work anymore after working their entire lives be expected to accept those prospects in order to simply survive?

    I've neither characterized seniors as having an "I've got mine, Jack." or advocated the position quoted above.

    Frankly, while I know plenty of (relatively) "comfortable and sanguine elders" my questioning the wealth of seniors as a group compared with other groups was not meant to depict them all that way either.

    As I said before, I find sniping across class, age and other group identifications for who gets to say theirs are the worst prospects, or the most helpless etc. unproductive and deceptive.

    I know people of all ages in precarious positions with their health and their finances and I don't see why this has to be framed as either/or, us vs. them.

    Parent

    Are you "some people"? (none / 0) (#133)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:19:16 PM EST
    If the shoe doesn't fit, please don't accuse me of forcing it on you.

    Parent
    It's Reasonable (none / 0) (#135)
    by daring grace on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 04:42:59 PM EST
    to assume that when someone responds to you, the arguments they're making apply to what you've said, or at least what they think you've said.

    If you weren't addressing that to me, fine. But then I guess I don't understand what in my post you were addressing.

    Parent

    Bingo and extremely well said! (none / 0) (#147)
    by suzieg on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 02:26:02 AM EST
    THANK YOU!!!

    Parent
    based both (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:12:56 AM EST
    on the "over 50 and under 50" part of your story and my personal experience, I would say yes.


    Parent
    That's pretty sketchy (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:19:11 AM EST
    alas (none / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:24:25 AM EST
    I find myself on the wrong side of the generational divide yet again.

    Parent
    Which is why I think Hillary Clinton (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 11:08:27 AM EST
    may not be a viable Presidential candidate in 2016.  She be entitled to both Social Security and Medicare at that point.

    Parent
    If that's the case (none / 0) (#16)
    by lilburro on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:07:47 AM EST
    then what Obama needs to deliver is this kind of thing:

    FDR--even with huge congressional majorities and a solid electoral coalition--knew he needed outside help to shift the electorate. But he knew how to do his part as well. His early fireside chats weren't just national pick-me-ups; they were designed from the first word of the first sentence to build public support for liberal ideas. Likewise, years later, when he was trying to persuade an isolationist American public to actively oppose the Nazi occupation of Europe, he gave a folksy speech comparing Lend-Lease with the loan of a garden hose to a neighbor whose house was on fire. It worked: With the public on board, Congress passed the enabling legislation and Britain survived long enough for America to join the war. Majorities may come and go, but FDR built a liberal legacy that outlasted him because, by the time he left office, the public believed in the New Deal and everything that went with it.

    Kevin Drum

    or more directly:

    The right way to address this won't be found in any of Obama's white papers. There's a story there, if you dig deep enough, but it's long and complicated and relies on things like increased efficiency, consumer rebates, and R&D funding that pays off in another decade or so. In the short term someone is going to have to tell the public that, yes, there's some sacrifice required here, but it's worth it. Someone needs to come up with a garden-hose analogy to convince a financially stressed public that doing something for the common good is worth a small price.

    And his approach more or less has been the "white paper approach" - Congress' certainly has been.

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#91)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:22:45 AM EST
    death by spreadsheet is apparently okay with you.

    Parent
    Show me where I say that (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:29:34 AM EST
    I am totally shocked (none / 0) (#143)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:28:03 PM EST
    by andgarden's comments today.  Surely you realize that seniors do not have the same options as young people.  They can't go out and change jobs, change careers, get a second job, or any job, to earn more money, or any of those things that young people can do.  

    Seniors aren't being selfish!  Their health is VERY important to them.   Younger people take their good health for granted, seniors do not because they've learned that they cannot.  Nor can they purchase better health care because they don't have those options like younger people do.  Seniors are scared!  I am shocked that someone as nice as andgarden can make such callus statements about one of our most vulnerable populations, our senior citizens.   If democrats don't care about older, more vulnerable people, who will?  

    Parent

    I find it somewhat ironic (none / 0) (#150)
    by CST on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 01:14:13 PM EST
    That while people get incredibly offended by remarks about seniors, generally there is no problem calling young people naive/stupid/uninformed.

    Just my two cents.  Not saying I agree with the above statement, but it is hardly the worst thing I've ever read.

    I would also add - young people stand to gain more by incremental health care reform, and lose more by never doing anything at all.  We are not in a hurry, but will also be responsible for supporting the status quo much longer.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:43:44 AM EST
    Just saw that. Also the poll shows most are complacent.

    83% happy with current health care 16% unhappy.
    74% happy with current ins coverage, 23% unhappy


    Looks like more than complacency (none / 0) (#144)
    by BrassTacks on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 08:31:14 PM EST
    When poll shows:
    >>>83% happy with current health care 16% unhappy.
    74% happy with current ins coverage, 23% unhappy<<
    It looks like a huge majority like what they have.  So why would they want anything to change?  

    Obama's got some serious selling to do if he's going to get a public option.  


    Parent

    Just one poll (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:19:03 AM EST
    This one doesn't agree

    Neither does this one

    Yeah this poll is a little low on gap (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:22:09 AM EST
    From your second link:

    "Still, Mr. Obama remains the dominant figure in the debate, both because he continues to enjoy relatively high levels of public support even after seeing his approval ratings dip, and because there appears to be a strong desire to get something done: 49 percent said they supported fundamental changes, and 33 percent said the health care system needed to be completely rebuilt."

    Parent

    Support for change and support (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:27:23 AM EST
    for a certain type of change are two different things.

    As democrats are learning people want reform.  They just don't want any type of reform congress puts forth.

    The rush to get this done is the obvious acknoledgement that the type of change democrats are offering isn't the type of change anyone (including progressives) wants.

    Obama is losing this political battle quite frankly.  His personal support is the only thing keeping it alive.  Every day that support comes down and if he doesn't take this away from congress he will loose his shot at real reform.  We'll get something because of the last election but it will be nothing anyone of us really wants.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:30:44 AM EST
    Did not know you were a single payer guy.

    Parent
    I'm for a system that works (none / 0) (#61)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:44:18 AM EST
    Make the arguement and I'll listen.

    I acknowledge that on paper single payer could work.  It just isn't working anywhere it's been tried.  But they aren't us and we're not them.  So make the arguement.

    I also beleive a free market system could work, or a two tier system (which is what we really have now).

    I just want the argument to be made, debated and affordable.

    None of that is happening now so I am simply taking the selfish view that what I have now is working and if you're not going to offer anything better then don't.


    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 09:39:45 AM EST
    the generational divide may grow worse before the end of the summer.


    Also the class divide will grow (none / 0) (#76)
    by Slado on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    As the democrats plans to soak the rich are made more clear.

    Parent
    You're probably right about (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by oldpro on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 10:26:41 AM EST
    the class divide growing, given the Republican framing of the healthcare issue.  Talking about "soaking the rich" doesn't help further the discussion.

    Pay-go is the goal.  A big part of the problem has been the Bush taxcuts undermining pay-go.  There is a difference between soaking the rich and making them pay their fair share.

    Eye of the beholder, I suppose.

    Parent

    Not to mention (none / 0) (#121)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 12:57:26 PM EST
    The worn-out Republican talking points.

    Single payer does work, we have examples of it both abroad and here at home -- Medicare and Tricare. Does Medicare have problems? Sure, but they pale next to the problems and the sheer inhumanity of our current system.

    Anyhing is better than the GOP idea... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kevsters on Wed Aug 05, 2009 at 01:56:12 PM EST
    Which is give American families a $5,000 tax credit to buy a $13,000 plan.

    Read this article.

    http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2412

    A Question (none / 0) (#149)
    by catmandu on Thu Aug 06, 2009 at 11:25:04 AM EST
    Is there an agency in the US gov't that you would trust to administer your health care?
    Would it be the post office, CIA, FBI, Social Security, IRS??
    Perhaps seniors are against the public option for the exact reason that they are ON a public option.
    As a gov't employee, I would hate to have a public option gov't insurance plan.  I know how the gov't works. I prefer my private health insurance.
    Personally, I would scam an emergency room for my health care before I would try to exist with a public option plan.  
    Now I don't think they could mess up a prescription medicine plan, could they?
    They should start with that.