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Another Look at Detainee Guilty Pleas

Bumped by BTD.

Allowing Guantanamo detainees to plead guilty to capital offenses related to the 9/11 attacks (an opportunity they do not clearly have in the military commission system) would sidestep the dicey issue of proving their guilt without relying on confessions that were coerced by torture. BTD makes the point that detainees who want to plead guilty should not be put on trial against their will simply to expose the details of their interrogations. That's true, but if the guilty pleas are accepted in a revamped military commission system (a proposal an administration task force has reportedly submitted to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates), detainees who are not actually guilty might be convicted and executed.

The detainees who want to plead guilty are apparently motivated by the allure of martyrdom. The desire to be a martyr (particularly after a prolonged and isolated incarceration) might convince a detainee to plead guilty despite his actual innocence. An innocent detainee shouldn't be executed even if that's his wish. [more ...]

There are a couple of ways around this problem. As BTD notes, federal prosecutions in federal courts would give the detainees the option of pleading guilty. In federal court, the presiding judge would not be permitted to accept the guilty plea unless the government could establish a factual basis for the charged offense. In other words, while there would be no trial, the judge would still be required to decide whether the government has sufficient evidence of guilt to support a conviction. Upon the government's proffer of that evidence and the defendant's admission (in open court, free from the coercive effects of torture) that the evidence is accurate, the detainees could plead guilty and the public could be assured that they actually are guilty. In BTD's words, eliminating "these ill advised and constitutionally questionable military commissions" in favor of federal prosecutions would assure the procedural protections that guard against punishing the innocent.

If the military commission system were modified to permit guilty pleas in capital cases, some sort of factual basis determination would probably be required, but how reliable would it be? Proceedings in the commissions aren't subject to the kind of public scrutiny that attends federal court hearings. The task force's contemplated plan likely wouldn't answer "questions about the fairness of a system that has been criticized as permitting shortcuts to assure convictions."

The problem could also be solved by abandoning capital punishment as a sentencing option. Frustrating a detainee's hope for martyrdom would discourage an innocent prisoner from pleading guilty while depriving terrorists of a propaganda tool.

These two suggestions are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I favor both. They don't address the underlying problem that the administration is evidently trying to skirt -- how to obtain convictions at trials without using evidence coerced by torture -- but accepting guilty pleas in the secretive military commission system isn't a solution that is consistent with American values of fairness and openness of criminal proceedings.

I should stress that a task force proposal is just that: a proposal.

It is not known whether the White House has approved the proposed death penalty provision. A White House spokesman declined to comment.

Before his election, President Obama expressed an interest in hearing from a variety of viewpoints before making executive decisions (as opposed to hearing only from Dick Cheney and Karl Rove). His willingness to entertain alternatives does not mean he will accept them. He may (I think he should) reject the idea of executing detainees on the basis of guilty pleas entered before military commissions. It's difficult to understand the downside of showing the world that the United States is capable of living up to its principles.

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    Obama back tracked on releasing (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by oculus on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 08:10:07 PM EST
    photos his admin. previously agreed to release in a FOIA case.  Why:  might adversely affect our military.  Query:  what is the anticipated effect on our miliary if five detainees at Guantanamo elect the death penalty?

    had these people been declared (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by cpinva on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 08:19:43 PM EST
    POW's, they would have been subject to trial by military tribunal for war crimes. of course, they would also have been entitled to competent counsel, and any findings subject to multiple reviews, prior to carrying out sentence, if found guilty.

    as civilians, they aren't, for the most part, subject to trial by military courts (remember, congress hasn't declared war in either afghanistan or iraq), but civilian ones. still entitled to competent counsel and multiple reviews of the findings.

    the bush administration created some bizarro netherworld, with no historical basis in the constitution or case law; they refused to call them POW's (for fear that the rest of the world would want to know why we ignored the geneva conventions), and refused to have them tried in civilian courts, for fear that the "evidence" coerced out of them would be inadmissable.

    in short, they excreted a hot, steamin' legal dung pile, with  dung pile aspirations for the future, domestically. using the "war on terror" as precedence, anyone arrested in the "war on drugs", or the "war on crime" can legitimately be treated to an indefinite confinement at club gitmo (or one of our 4 star "super max" facilities), tortured to extract "confessions" and finally, a trial by military tribunal, with either execution or confinement forever, regardless of the finding.

    i believe this sort of thing is part of what got our founding fathers cranky, and the cash of course.

    I don't envy Obama (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Ryan at TrulySkewed on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 08:44:04 PM EST
    Jacob you make a fair point; Obama has been wishy-washy about some things been pretty glib about it.  

    Still, overall I think he's doing a bang-up job with a tough situation.  I love how forceful he's been about closing Guantanamo, I love his audacity health care, I love his efforts in the Middle East so far.  

    In an interview, he was asked what was the most unexpected aspect of being president.  He answered that the toughest times have been when he has had to choose between two terrible options, due to a mess left by the previous administration.

    This is one of those times.  In a sense he has two terrible options: (with full trials) possibly let the masterminds of 911 go free and mire his administration in the attrocities of the Bush admin, or (with guilty pleads and executions) allow something that completely undermines American values and Constitution and set an awful precedent.

    Both of these options are absolutely gut wrenching.

    please tell me this is snark: (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by cpinva on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 01:45:08 AM EST
    Still, overall I think he's doing a bang-up job with a tough situation.  I love how forceful he's been about closing Guantanamo, I love his audacity health care, I love his efforts in the Middle East so far.

    since none of these is true. ok, his efforts in the middle east might have some merit until, of course, the republicans push back. then pres. obama will skitter to a wall, and his people will claim he was "misunderstood".

    frankly, i kind of wonder how long hillary clinton will want to be so directly associated with an administration completely lacking a spine?

    Parent

    His audicity about healthcare? If only! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jawbone on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:45:04 PM EST
    Ignoring a solution which would require courage and leadership in favor of pampering the Big Insurance parasites is audacious? And in ignoring it, losing the opportunity of a lifetime to finally give Americans universal healthcare. The most affordable way is through single payer.

     Dr. David Himmelstein, interviewed on Bill Moyers' Journal, said that single payer could save about $400 Billion each year through doing away with mountains of confusing and conflicting requirements by each different insurer and even for each different plan offered by each insurer, massive paperwork, time wasted trying to fight Big Insurers' denial of care tactics, then more time spent trying to correct mistakes in applying charges. Save money on marketing, denial of service bureaucracy, plus those humongous exec compensation packages.

    Big Insurers pay out only 71 cents of each healthcare dollar on actual care, with the rest going to the types of things I described. Medicare spends about 97 cents per each dollar on actual care. Canada spends slightly less on overhead. BTW, since private insurers are profit driven, they consider that 71 cents to be a "loss."

    Is it brave to belittle supporters of single payer by saying to a New Mexico audience "We've got the little single payer supporters here" when the audience applauded a very well presented question about single payer? By condescending to the very few single payer representatives who managed to finally get invited to the WH healthcare forum by calling them the "liberal bleeding hearts"? By keeping single payer "off the table"?

    Martin Luther King said in commenting on the story of the Good Samaritan, who aided a man who'd been assaulted by criminals along a road to Jerich:

    I admire the Good Samaritan for picking up people on the side of the road, but I don't want to be the Good Samaritan. I want to fix the road to Jericho, so people don't get beat up there.

    We don't need Obama to just fill a few potholes on the road to universal healthcare; we need him to see the whole system needs fixing and then do it, lead others to do it. Right now, the system is breaking down, metaphorical bridges are about to collapse, many can't even get on the system. Our president needs to call for the courage to build a system that works for everyone. He needs to have that courage.

    Think what we could do if our leader had the audacity you speak of, if he wanted to make sure everyone was safe and secure, in a healthcare system where we didn't get beat up by the profiteers.

    I hope he can achieve that courage. And audacity.

    Parent

    I hope so too, although I don't expect (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:49:11 PM EST
    it since his initial position was to await whatever bill Congress sent to him for his signature.  Also, if he signs a bill providing for taxation of contribution of employer to employee's health care premieum, he will have mucked up the system but improved it not at all.

    Parent
    You want Obama to do what Hillary did? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ryan at TrulySkewed on Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 07:33:45 AM EST
    One man's 'courage' is another man's (or woman's in the case of Hillary) 'folly'.  You would like Obama to draft up his dream plan and lay it on the doorstep of Congress like the Clinton's did.  Then we will end up with nothing.  

    Obama is trying it another way.  At the end of the day, he wants to get America a public option.  This will be a wonderful first step that will lead to much better things down the road.  If you were president, we would end up being screwed again!

    I want a single payer plan too, but you really think the insurance companies and the entire system is going to be gone in a couple months?

    I want some of what you're tokin' mate!

    Parent

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Ryan. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jacob Freeze on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 07:55:46 AM EST
    I can't agree, but I think you made just about the best case that can be made for Obama's shifting agenda.

    But about Guantanamo...

    Obama could have ended the brutalization of "detainees" at Guantanamo, even if closing down the prison is more difficult than he imagined.

    But abuse has continued, and even intensified, since Obama was inaugurated, as described here and here, and elsewhere, and it isn't a "gut-wrenching" choice between two bad alternatives.

    It's just indifference.

    Parent

    How is it not a gut-wrenching choice? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ryan at TrulySkewed on Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 07:36:25 AM EST
    I don't understand your point.  The choice is exactly as I described it unless I'm missing something.

    Ryan at TrulySkewed

    Parent

    Obama could have ended abuse of prisoners. (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jacob Freeze on Tue Jun 09, 2009 at 11:32:59 PM EST
    It's complicated to shut down Guantanamo, but it isn't complicated to make sure that the Geneva Conventions are observed in the treatment of prisoners.

    But Obama has allowed the same system, with the same guards to remain in place.

    This was entirely Obama's choice, and abuse has continued, as described in the links from my previous comment.

    Parent

    Wishy-washy? (none / 0) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 10:04:05 AM EST
    I'd call it complete reversal.

    Can you name one campaign promise that he hasn't reversed on?

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Socraticsilence on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:10:54 PM EST
    You want one-

    here's one- Leadbetter, here's another NIH funding release- seriously if you're going to throw out a preposterously unsupportable statement its going to be torn apart by anyone who is the least bit informed.

    Parent

    Stem cells? (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:12:26 PM EST
    Take the death penalty off the table (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by rise hillary rise on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 10:00:03 AM EST
    If we execute these people after "allowing" them to plead guilty, and without trials or findings of fact, our legal system-and our moral standing in the world-will never recover. This is a combination of the worst possible scenarios-torture, coercion, and murder.

    funny sort of competence (2.00 / 1) (#6)
    by diogenes on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 10:30:16 PM EST
    Apparently the detainees are perfectly competent to plead innocent and aid attorneys in their defense but not competent enough to plead guilty?

    Innocence is presumed. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by TChris on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 02:30:23 AM EST
    A defendant need not be "perfectly competent to plead innocent" because innocence is presumed. If a competent defendant chooses not to enter a plea, the court will enter a plea of not guilty on the defendant's behalf.  On the other hand, if a defendant (and hopefully a detainee) isn't competent to decide what plea to enter, proceedings are generally suspended until the defendant becomes competent to make that decision.  

    Parent
    are the defendents incompetent, then? (none / 0) (#18)
    by diogenes on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 03:22:59 PM EST
    If a defendant in a felony or higher case is declared incompetent to aid in his defense, then the state can retain him until he becomes competent to aid in his defense.  The trial is POSTPONED--there is no "presumptive plea" of innocent.  Thus, no trial of any sort.  If the defendant is competent, then the case proceeds.  

    Parent
    Are you sure that is the case? (none / 0) (#25)
    by cawaltz on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 08:11:29 PM EST
    The military justice system I dealt with didn't operate in that manner. In a court martial you are basically required to prove your innocence. I saw a First class lose his career because he ingested THC accidentally(in a rum cake sent from Jamaica by relatives). My husband went before a board, the lawyer representing him said that he was the first person that he defended(the CO was attempting to get him out on other than honorable conditions) who actually won(granted he was on a marine corps base).

    You just aren't going to be able to convince me that any military justice system is going to operate in the same manner the civilian system is. Particularly one which doesn't have alot of oversight(with the rationale of national security).

    Parent

    I think someone would have to convince (none / 0) (#4)
    by Anne on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 08:31:06 PM EST
    me that these detainees are sufficiently competent to enter a plea - and since whether they are competent would likely not be determined by any independent assessment, I'm not sure a finding of competence would have any value.

    This is one fine mess, as far as I can tell.  And I'm not sure there is much reason to believe anything we are being told about any of it.

    When is someone going to figure out that there will be no way out of this until we get some answers, admit to our mistakes or crimes or errors and hold people accountable?

    Great post (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Jun 06, 2009 at 10:47:56 PM EST
    Thanks for this.

    The notion (none / 0) (#13)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 10:01:20 AM EST
    that the only reason these folks would enter a guilty plea is a desire for martyrdom sounds like something Bill O'Reilly would say.

    The other reason they could enter a guilty plea is because they know they will be found guilty anyway.  Why not plead guilty?  Hasn't the government said they won't try anyone they can't convict?

    It's the kangaroo's third term.

    Martydom is really huge (none / 0) (#15)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 11:44:39 AM EST
    with this bunch.  They proclaim their devotion to it constantly.  Many of them, as I'm sure you've noticed, actually act on that desire for martyrdom.  

    Just sayin'.

    Parent

    Sure (none / 0) (#16)
    by TChris on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 12:31:16 PM EST
    why not just plead guilty and agree to let the United States kill you when the alternative is to fight for your life?  Given the problematic status of evidence obtained by torture, I'm sure their lawyers are telling them that a trial would not be hopeless.

    Parent
    Actually, it's difficult (none / 0) (#17)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 01:10:14 PM EST
    The notion [snip]
    that the only reason these folks would enter a guilty plea is a desire for martyrdom sounds like something Bill O'Reilly would say.

    to imagine a Seattle woman would have a clear understanding of what a Middle Eastern Muslim (possible extremist) who had spent years in a military prison being tortured finds more appealing. A continuation of what their lives currently hold, or the chance to end it and be considered a martyr in their own country.


    Parent

    Oh totally (none / 0) (#22)
    by Socraticsilence on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 05:14:56 PM EST
    and suicide bombing is just a fiction invented by the right as well, as was 9-11- say what you want about the root causes of many suicide attacks, but denying that a desire for marytrdom exists is just as misinformed as the drivel Fox reports.

    Parent
    It is called "state assisted suicide" (none / 0) (#19)
    by stevelaudig on Sun Jun 07, 2009 at 04:53:42 PM EST
    or state-assisted martyrdom