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Saturday Afternoon Open Thread

BTD is on his way to a conference where he'll be for the next several days. I'm hoping commenters will fill in for him in the open threads.

What's on your agenda this weekend? I'm going to finish reading Eric Boehlert's Bloggers on the Bus. It's fun to read a book with quotes by people you know. It's also filled with details about bloggers' backgrounds I was unaware of.

If you're looking for a good read, here it is:

Bloggers on the Bus traces the online events that rocked the campaign trail and reveals the untold stories of the internet activists who made them all possible. In the tradition of Timothy Crouse's classic, The Boys on the Bus, Bloggers on the Bus investigates the cutting edge of liberal politics to reveal the stories and scandals at its very heart.

[More...]

The cast includes everyone from former professional rock saxophonist John Amato who, years before YouTube, changed blogging forever by unleashing his TiVo and figuring out how to post TV clips online, to sixty-something Oakland housewife Mayhill Fowler, who joined the Huffington Post as a volunteer journalist and went on to break two of the biggest stories of the Democratic primary. Boehlert tells the story of acerbic West Coast blogger Digby, whose gender shocked the male-dominated blogosphere, as well as that of graphic tech Philip de Vellis, who culture-jacked an iconic Apple ad in order to create the infamous "Vote Different" video that influenced the Democratic primary. These are just a few of the bloggers pioneering the major shift in today's media who are profiled in Bloggers on the Bus. All of their efforts have set off an industry-wide debate about journalism and privacy and have permanently altered the character of campaign strategy.

Using the 2008 presidential race as a dramatic backdrop, Boehlert details the myriad ways these bloggers influenced both the candidates and their campaigns, while also chronicling the bitter blogger civil war that erupted during the contentious Democratic primary season. Offering unprecedented portraits of these new power brokers, Bloggers on the Bus goes behind the scenes to chronicle a media and political rebellion in the making.

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    Is anyone keeping track of... (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by EL seattle on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:03:58 PM EST
    ... possible omissions in Boehlert's book?  

    It sounds like a nice read, but if things like Somerby's site and the (still mourned) Horse aren't included, I'm not sure how much long term value the book will have.

    Maybe there'll be a FAQ site set up to expand the book's coverage and make additions and clarifications.  It's a very worthwhile subject, and if they want to live up to the legacy of Crouse's book, I think they should take every opportunity that the internet offers and do it right.  

    The Horse was long gone (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:48:35 PM EST
    before this election season, so unless he's doing a thoroughgoing history, it's unlikely to be in there.  Somerby is admirable and I read him every single day, but he's pretty much a voice in the wilderness and has had just about zero impact on the blogosphere as a whole, so I'm not sure he'd get more than a footnote in this book.

    I DO wish somebody would find out and report to the rest of us bereaved fans what happened to The Horse and why it just quit.

    Parent

    Amen! (none / 0) (#68)
    by Radiowalla on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:27:33 PM EST
    For my money, there will never be enough praise heaped on Bob Somerby and The Horse!  

    Parent
    You read the blurb, right? (none / 0) (#82)
    by lambert on Sat May 16, 2009 at 08:57:40 PM EST
    Somerby and the Horse aren't and weren't power brokers. There's no percentage in that.

    Parent
    That's certainly true about Somerby (none / 0) (#89)
    by Radiowalla on Sat May 16, 2009 at 10:11:56 PM EST
    He chooses not to use his blog for activism and what a shame, what a shame.  Imagine the impact if he marshalled his army of supporters to call the Villagers to account...  

    As for The Horse, they were in the avant-garde and did have a very active forum at one time.  They were pretty good at getting readers to write letters and press the Democratic Party case.  

    But, as you say, there's no percentage.

    Parent

    Mythical Liberal Judges (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Sumner on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:53:36 PM EST
    When considering the choice of a "moderate" US Supreme Court Justice to replace the departing Justice Souter, let us recall some excerpts from the instructive lecture on the Vanity and Narcissism of Bloggers given by the baseline "liberal" federal Judge Alex Kozinski, to Eric Goldman, now largely purged from the Internet. Remember, as the baseline liberal judge, all judges are theoretically to the right of Judge Kozinski:

    ERIC GOLDMAN: Why do you hate blogs?

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: For one thing, they display -- and you know, some of my best friends are bloggers.

    ERIC GOLDMAN: Probably some of your worst enemies, too.

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: I don't have any enemies. You think I do?

    ERIC GOLDMAN: If there were any, they'd probably be bloggers.

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: I'm sure there'd be many that have many vices. I just think it's so self-indulgent, you know. Oh, I'm so proud of what I'm saying, I think the world instantly wants to know what I'm thinking today. People wake up thinking, hmm, what does this person, whoever the blog, the question is -- I wonder what great thoughts have come into his mind this morning that I can feel myself edified by. I can't really have breakfast, really enjoy my day until I hear the great thoughts of how that one -- I don't think so. I go for months without ever knowing what Howard has to say. So I don't know. I find it sort of self-indulgent. And I find it so grandiloquent. And I find it annoying, particularly if I'm in an audience and people sitting there typing in their computers. I don't know whether they're -- hopefully, they're playing Minesweep or something.

    [...]

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: [...] But bloggers, you know, I've had the situation where I've given a sort of talk or a debate and before I got home people were calling up and saying, Oh, we read on this blog. But nobody ever read before and nobody's ever heard from it since, but some kid in the audience sitting there paraphrasing what was said, paraphrasing. So nobody ever asked you, Did you really say that or was it a fair characterization, was it taken out of context? No, you know, it becomes what you are because some idiot blogger's out there getting his -- and I do mean you if you're blogging there.

    ERIC GOLDMAN: We had this discussion...

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: Present company is not excepted.

    ERIC GOLDMAN: ...at breakfast where I told him I was blogging and I think your first response was, yeah, and I hate bloggers. So no one is excluded.

    JUDGE ALEX KOZINSKI: I said I hate bloggers and the professor said, oh, I'm a blogger. I said, I hate him anyway. There are no exceptions.



    Translation (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:28:22 PM EST
    When too many people utilize their freedom to express themselves online it is a bad thing.

    By his empty definition, the act of voting by anyone but the most informed, educated and esteemed is self-indulgent.

    To quote Woody Allen, "What I wouldn't give for a large sock full of horse manure."  

    Parent

    Interesting article on Iraqi refugees difficulties (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:07:32 PM EST
    in trying to adjust to a life in America during an economic downturn.

    Also very sad is the treatment they're receiving, lack of help.

    May I take this opportunity to (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:40:18 PM EST
    congratulate Bristol Palin on her graduation from high school.  Good job.

    With all that was going on in her life? (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Cream City on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:37:06 PM EST
    That is good.  As is that good things are happening to her, with all the nonsense from idjits who seem to need their own lives.

    Parent
    It is an accomplishment considering (1.00 / 2) (#67)
    by ProudTroll on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:25:17 PM EST
    how much your left-wing pals in the nutroots smeared her mom the past eight months just for having the "audacity" to run against Obama.  I'm surprised that FarLeft, I mean Talkleft, one of the few places that supported Hillary last year didn't stand up against the smears that emanated from so-called feminists such as Jeralyn Merritt and Taylor Marsh against a self-made and accomplished woman.

    Though I don't consider Big Tent Democrat to actually be a centrist considering his economic and social views (compared to all of you radicals, yes, he is a centrist), I applaud him for dealing with and writing about Palin in a dignified and respectful manner, unlike his female colleague.  

    Parent

    Meh. (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Radiowalla on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:31:15 PM EST
    "Dignified and respectful"...two words that can hardly be used in the same sentence as Sarah Palin.   Jeralyn had it right.

    Parent
    Congratulations to Bristol (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by CoralGables on Sun May 17, 2009 at 10:05:50 AM EST
    but it does make one question the path the education system in this country has taken when it lets someone graduate, who by most accounts hasn't set foot in a classroom in a year and a half.

    You can also get a BA, a BS, an MBA and a PhD without ever setting foot in a classroom as many budding politicians and businessmen have accomplished over the years to bolster their resumes. So while we make it easier to graduate by never going to class, and no one knowing who actually takes your test, our graduation rates from high school and college lag behind many other countries even as we make it easier to be granted a variety of faux degrees.

    Parent

    And you know all this by what means? (none / 0) (#100)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun May 17, 2009 at 10:26:54 AM EST
    Clearly you believe that the ONLY way to get a high school diploma is to sit in a classroom listening to the district hired teachers. No such thing as correspondence, or home schooling, or any other possible way to accomplish the diploma.

    Parent
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#101)
    by CoralGables on Sun May 17, 2009 at 11:34:54 AM EST
    there are other ways. I can get an unlimited number of fish wrapper degrees from The University of Phoenix or DeVry University and could get a high school equivalency diploma by taking a GED test.

    Parent
    So why the insulting claims (none / 0) (#103)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun May 17, 2009 at 11:46:32 AM EST
    against Bristol Palin? You don't know if she took her tests, did her work, or attended classes that entitled her to the diploma. Your insinuations and judgmental attitude that she didn't is actually more a reflection on you than on her.

    She earned her diploma. A simple congratulations is really all that's appropriate here...unless you can prove she never stepped foot in a classroom or did the work required to earn that document over the past 18 months, of course.

     

    Parent

    You're Correct (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Sun May 17, 2009 at 11:54:26 AM EST
    I misspoke. By most accounts she left school two and a half years ago. But my statement has nothing to do with Bristol. It has to do with the lack of educational progress in this country where no "child" left behind means we leave all children behind together.

    When one of every four can't finish high school, when you don't even have to attend to finish, we have a problem.

    Parent

    Yves on Elizabeth Warren (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by lambert on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:03:23 PM EST
    Here. Nice to see the progressive blogosphere pounding on this. Oh, wait...

    Yves is Great (none / 0) (#88)
    by kidneystones on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:37:08 PM EST
    And so are her guest posters. If anyone here believes that folks who've made tens of millions for banks and securities companies by pillaging and exploiting loopholes in regulatory law are not going to use this crisis to further line their own pockets simply because the political shading is blue, rather than red, they're in for the shock of their lives.

    The numbers are mind-boggling and will likely make the Republican/Haliburton rip-offs seem like chump change. These folks didn't invest 3/4 of a billion dollars for nothing.

    Great return on their investment while the rubes fret about military tribunals and rendition.

    Three cheers for people power!

    Parent

    What's the FarLeft reaction, I mean TalkLeft (1.50 / 2) (#79)
    by ProudTroll on Sat May 16, 2009 at 08:20:04 PM EST
    reaction to this Taylor Marsh post.  Take this as my final educational post of the day as your resident "chatterer."

    Palin, Miss California & Keith's Breast Implant Implosion
    http://www.taylormarsh.com/2009/05/14/palin-miss-california-and-keiths-breast-implant-implosion/

    "You know the most popular Democratic position on gay marriage has imploded when a beauty pageant winner and Sarah Palin are using it against you.

    Gov. Sarah Palin just nailed Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (both pro civil unions, against same-sex marriage) and any number of other Democratic stars. It's quite humorous, actually, considering, well, we are talking about Sarah Palin being correct on something. Never mind her statement was partially taken from Miss California's statement on the same topic, as she stood close to Donald Trump. The visuals of that should give all Democrats pause."

    Thank you for educating us (none / 0) (#81)
    by rdandrea on Sat May 16, 2009 at 08:46:56 PM EST
    I'm sure that our political views are simply a result of a lack of education.

    Or not.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#85)
    by dead dancer on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:05:07 PM EST
    Gov. Sarah Palin just nailed Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (both pro civil unions, against same-sex marriage)... The visuals of that should give all Democrats pause."

    I think the visuals of Sara Palin nailing Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are just a bit ...

    You asked!

    Parent

    Open Thread? (1.33 / 3) (#4)
    by ProudTroll on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:34:28 PM EST
    I'm assuming it is, so I'll take the opportunity to note Obama's falling approval rating among independents:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_trac king_poll

    He's now at 43/57 approval/disapproval among indies.

    Let me guess, do you folks here at FarLeft, I mean Talkleft, completely ignore Rasmussen and think he's in the tank for the GOP?  Is that why he has pretty much nailed the 2004 and 2008 presidential election popular vote?

    Proud Troll (5.00 / 0) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:39:11 PM EST
    You are a chatterer, see our comment rules. Please limit yourself to four comments a day. And urls must be in html format or they skew the site requiring me to delete the entire comment.

    Parent
    Proud to be a chatterer (2.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ProudTroll on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:20:31 PM EST
    This is my second post of the day, so I've got two more posts that I can use to educate the echo chamber as to how small a minority you guys are (a minority in your own party) with your opposition to pragmatic legislation such as parental consent laws.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/23905/Americans-Want-Parental-Consent-Teen-Abortions.aspx

    Parent

    Curious what you (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:53:44 PM EST
    think would be adequate punishment for pregnant teens who violate your cherished legislation, Troll.
    Life in prison? Lethal injection?

    Parent
    What Im semi-curious (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jondee on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:54:17 PM EST
    about is, does anyone from the neanderthal hinterlands that supported the unprecedented clusterf*ck of the last eight years recognize anyone to the left of them that isnt a (card-carrying) member of "the Far Left"?

    Parent
    Real members of "the Far Left" (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:07:02 PM EST
    are almost extinct here in the U.S. Kinda like real "moderate Republicans" who are also on the endangered species list.

    Parent
    They've never been (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jondee on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:18:30 PM EST
    able to let go of red-baiting even after the Cold War was (theoretically) over. It's just too tempting to take that simpleminded fundamentalist mindset and apply it to every sphere of life.

    Parent
    Simple concepts for simple minds. (none / 0) (#86)
    by DeborahNC on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:12:31 PM EST
    Most right-wingers whom I know have tended to embrace the all-or-nothing perspective. Often, they are unable to understand the importance of nuances and "shades of gray" within their political perspectives.

    Unfortunately, that perspective pervades other spheres within their world. They fail to acknowledge that the world is a complex place and rarely is the all-or-nothing principle applicable. In the past, I've wasted too much of my time trying to explain that concept to people. It's proven to be very frustrating to me, so I rarely try to do that anymore.

    Parent

    I have no idea what your point is, (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Anne on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:21:06 PM EST
    but let me draw your attention to one word in your comment: "think."

    It has been my experience that there is a large group of people here who actually do that - think, that is - and challenge and question and disagree.

    This is not pod-ville, not Stepford-land.

    You are welcome to join the discussion (that's a concept you may be unfamiliar with - it's a back-and-forth manner of talking among individuals who may not share the same opinion, but are willing to listen and learn and expand their understanding) - but if I could make a suggestion, the snide confrontational tone tends to inspire people to respond in kind.

    If you are looking for a fight, or to score points, may I suggest ESPN, or WWF?

    Parent

    If you think this line... (none / 0) (#107)
    by Thanin on Sun May 17, 2009 at 01:19:23 PM EST
    "I'll take the opportunity to note Obama's falling approval rating among independents"

    ... is going to upset most people around here, youre obviously new to the comment section of this site.  You'll have more luck making people mad with that at Daily Kos or maybe Booman Tribute.

    Parent

    Obama appoints next US Aty for SDNY (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sat May 16, 2009 at 01:10:47 PM EST
    As expected, Schumer pick Preet Bharara got the nod.

    Is this a good choice? (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:33:44 PM EST
    Well, you tell me (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:40:10 PM EST
    He's a former AUSA, and was Schumer's Judiciary cmte. counsel.

    All I have is this.

    Parent

    Hmmm. I see the dilemma. (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:47:03 PM EST
    What dilemma? (none / 0) (#50)
    by andgarden on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:49:21 PM EST
    Did the attorney accomplish anything (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:03:56 PM EST
    to date re firings of US Attorneys?

    Parent
    Depends on what you mean by "accomplish" (none / 0) (#55)
    by andgarden on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:11:32 PM EST
    Uhhuh. (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:13:18 PM EST
    Always on my agenda - HealthCARE (none / 0) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 01:14:25 PM EST
    Actor Mike Farrell on Capital Hill on Single Payer HealthCARE.

    Courtesy of Correntwire "Mike Farrell: I campaigned for Max Baucus, "back when he was a Democrat." Definitely worth watching the video.

    And (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by cal1942 on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    "one" CHANGE we know won't happen is single payer.

    We all knew that when the primaries were over but once again we were told we weren't capable of understanding and that we would HAVE to get over it.

    The great health care "stakeholders" confab was all about preserving the status quo, just like "rescuing" the finance industry was about preserving the status quo.

    I still get email from his dimwitted supporters with the concluding phrase 'yes we can.'

    Parent

    Yes We Can (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:00:15 PM EST
    maintain the "status quo" on heathCARE under Obama.

    Fervently hope he proves me wrong.

    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:03:20 PM EST
    I won't get over it when it comes to healthCARE or preserving the Rule of Law and the Constitution.

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:39:50 PM EST
    I seriously doubt there's going to be a public option offered. I think the "reform" will basically be nothing much in the end.

    Parent
    My suspicion (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by cal1942 on Sat May 16, 2009 at 11:40:39 PM EST
    as well.  Edwards and Clinton had public options in their proposals during the primaries, Obama did not.  So the insurance industry comes to his rescue with this play that's really insignificant.

    So now the health insurance industry gloats about a 1.5% cost reduction.  No one was willing to talk about the 30% administrative overhead in health care, an exhorbitant piece that should be easy to cut.

    No one bothered to talk about the fact that private health insurers add NO VALUE whatsoever to health care and Single-payer advocates were dragged out of the room.

    Status quo, no CHANGE here.

    Parent

    More Smoke & Mirrors? n/t (none / 0) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:51:29 PM EST
    For MO Blue (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Dr Molly on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:13:14 PM EST
    Very enlightening article (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by ChiTownMike on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:33:24 PM EST
    I was just about to post the same article from SFGate.

    Here is the opening two paragraphs:


    The most stunning and least reported news about President Obama's press conference with health industry executives this week wasn't those executives' willingness to negotiate with a Democrat. It was that Democrat's eagerness to involve those executives in a discussion about health care reform even as they revealed their previous plans to pilfer $2 trillion from Americans.

    That was the little-noticed message from the made-for-TV spectacle administration officials called a health care "game changer": In saying they can voluntarily slash $200 billion a year from the country's medical bills over the next decade and still preserve their profits, health care companies implicitly acknowledged they were plotting to fleece consumers, and have been fleecing them for years. With that acknowledgment came the tacit admission that the industry's business is based not on respectable returns but on grotesque profiteering and waste - the kind that can give up $2 trillion and still guarantee huge margins.




    Parent
    Did they are didn't they? (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:30:19 PM EST
    promise $2 trillion in cost reductions over 10 years.

    Health care leaders who attended the meeting have a different interpretation. They say they agreed to slow health spending in a more gradual way and did not pledge specific year-by-year cuts.

    "There's been a lot of misunderstanding that has caused a lot of consternation among our members," said Richard J. Umbdenstock, the president of the American Hospital Association. "I've spent the better part of the last three days trying to deal with it." C&L



    Parent
    So it looks like (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ChiTownMike on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:02:22 PM EST
    given the 'Obama misspoke' - then - 'he did not misspeak' from the WH spokeswoman that...

    Obama lied to the Left again. Surprise!

    Parent

    The problem (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:53:46 PM EST
    isn't that Obama lied to the "left" it's that he lies to everybody it seems. The left is the only ones clueless enough to NOT realize that he was lying to them all along.

    Parent
    The other problem (none / 0) (#108)
    by jondee on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:22:22 PM EST
    is the alternative posited by backwater Puma types of the faux-liberal persuasion: Zell Miller in a skirt.

    Parent
    Ooh (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:48:50 PM EST
    it's my obsessive unhappy troll again!! Once again what is your problem? Shouldn't you be happy! Or being spit on and rolled under the bus has finally gotten to you?

    Parent
    Again (none / 0) (#111)
    by jondee on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    What's your reasonable alternative on the horizen?

    Parent
    I'll (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 17, 2009 at 04:33:28 PM EST
    have to wait and see who comes to the forefront. I'd rather have someone who runs as a centrist and let's the chips fall where they may than someone who constantly lies about his stances to get votes.

    Parent
    To think you're (none / 0) (#114)
    by jondee on Mon May 18, 2009 at 03:38:53 PM EST
    ever going to get someone who never lies is to deny the nature of American politics.

    Parent
    Should Read (none / 0) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:31:05 PM EST
    Did they OR didn't they?

    Parent
    Don't always agree with Sirota (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:45:44 PM EST
    This was one of his better articles IMO.

    I can't help but believe that the insurance companies will cut out more needed medical services to realize any cost reductions if they even attempt to keep their promise. We all know it won't be executive pay or the bonuses paid to those who deny claims. David failed to discuss in the Salon article.

    Parent

    Does it make any difference what (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:47:50 PM EST
    any actor has to say about health care reform?

    Parent
    Personally, I welcome any person who (none / 0) (#64)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:36:39 PM EST
    supports real healthCARE (i.e. single payer) reform to shine a light on the subject whenever and where ever possible. Mr. Farrell addresses the subject well and can garner an audience.

    Make a difference? Probably only if we can get enough of a ground swell of people who demand REAL healthCARE reform. People will have to be willing to tell their Congresscritters, regardless of party affiliation, "Support single payer if you want my vote." and mean it.  

     

    Parent

    Who does everyone like in the Preakness? (none / 0) (#3)
    by rdandrea on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:12:33 PM EST
    Past performance charts are here

    I'd wheel (none / 0) (#6)
    by lobary on Sat May 16, 2009 at 02:46:33 PM EST
    Pioneer of the Nile on top with Take the Points, Papa Clem, and Rachel Alexandra.

    Parent
    No horse has ever won the Preakness (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Anne on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:11:08 PM EST
    from the 13 post, but I would be happy to see the filly do it!

    It is a suffocatingly humid day here in the Baltimore area - when the sun comes out it is tropical.

    Will be interested to see what kind of crowd they have in the infield this year, the first year they have banned ticket-holders from bringing in their own alcoholic beverages.  I heard that they were originally going to be selling beer at $5 a pop, but have lowered the price...

    Hoping for a good race, well run and no injuries.

    Parent

    She did it! (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by lobary on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:22:52 PM EST
    Wow, what a ride. Great late charge from Mine that Bird.

    Parent
    She won?! (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by nycstray on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:08:11 PM EST
    {happy dance!}

    I can't watch live anymore, so now that I know it's safe  . . . .

    Parent

    Interesting (none / 0) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 03:58:37 PM EST
    Jockey Calvin Borel left Kentucky Derby winner, Mine That Bird, jockey  to ride Rachel Alexandra.

    Parent
    He just said she's the greatest horse he's ever (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:27:03 PM EST
    ridden.

    NBC on track interviewer, a woman, said she wanted Rachel A to win bcz "she runs like a girl."

    Pretty neat.

    Parent

    The filly breaks the Post 13 drought by winning. (none / 0) (#36)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:29:03 PM EST
    You Go Girl (none / 0) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:35:51 PM EST
    Gotta love it.

    The jockey definitely knew what he was doing when he changed mounts.

    Parent

    He'd said at the Derby that he loved riding Rachel (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:39:11 PM EST
    A, praised her highly then as well. Loves that horse.

    Parent
    Borel didn't "leave" Mine That Bird; (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Anne on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:17:33 PM EST
    he was Rachel Alexandra's jock in the Kentucky Oaks, and would have been her jock if she had been entered in the Derby.  As of the Derby, it was understood that if she were to enter the Preakness he would be on board.

    The quirk is that the filly was sold 10 days ago, but new owner decided he wanted to stick with the plan and have Borel ride her.

    My husband was not in on all of this, so when Borel was being interviewed just after the race, he asked, "why are they talking to him and not the winning jock?"  Had to tell him Borel was the winning jock...

    Exciting race - am thrilled to pieces for her!

    Parent

    That was a good race! (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by lilburro on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:35:38 PM EST
    She is a big, regal looking horse.  I kind of like the little ones - like Mine That Bird and my beloved Smarty Jones!  

    Parent
    I like 'em all, but (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:44:35 PM EST
    particuarly the ones who aren't the standard size, color, etc.  So I like the real big ones, and I love the little guys.

    Yay Rachel!

    Parent

    i still think... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Dadler on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:40:56 PM EST
    ...if Mine That Bird runs in the Belmont, he is the clear favorite.  Ten more yards and this race was his.  I think even Borel sold the gelding short.  But he is a late charger of the highest order.  A strong finisher is putting it mildly.  

    Parent
    Wise move (none / 0) (#34)
    by lobary on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:27:09 PM EST
    Borel now has winng rides in both the Derby and the Preakness. I like that guy a lot.

    Borel says that Rachel Alexandra is the finest horse he's ever ridden.

    Parent

    I hope Mine That Bird didn't hear (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:28:21 PM EST
    that.  What a diss.

    Parent
    Mine that Bird (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by lobary on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:33:21 PM EST
    If he'd had a better route, he might have caught her at the finish. That horse has impressive late speed.

    Parent
    You noticed...... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by NYShooter on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:23:33 PM EST
    I bet his jockey is kicking himself, second guessing; "if only I tapped him a scond earlier, if only, if only........"

    Would've been a great story if he had pulled it off.

    Parent

    If he could have gotten to the rail, (none / 0) (#62)
    by Anne on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:27:44 PM EST
    it might have ended differently, but there was no spot there for him.

    Rachel Alexandra benefited from the shorter race, too - another little bit and I think Mine That Bird would have caught her.

    No Triple Crown winner again this year, but them's the breaks!

    Parent

    But, (none / 0) (#92)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:03:02 AM EST
    two races, two great stories.

    Parent
    Yup, (none / 0) (#95)
    by NYShooter on Sun May 17, 2009 at 05:21:25 AM EST
    that's a fact.

    Parent
    What does (none / 0) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:36:20 PM EST
    anyone think is going to happen to Pelosi? The GOP is screaming for her head and swearing that her days are numbered.

    Nothing. A GOP: oh look, there's a spider. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:39:04 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:42:00 PM EST
    I was wondering. I'm not a huge fan of hers but this just seemed like another of their made up things that get in the press. The GOP still largely rules the media.

    Parent
    "In Detainee Furor, A Rare (none / 0) (#31)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:22:31 PM EST
    Stumble by Pelosi."  NYT Hulse

    "A rare stumble"?  Crazy.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:47:49 PM EST
    rare stumble should be a punchline somewhere. Of all the things she's done wrong the GOP picks the one thing that's really stupid to go after her on. But what can you say? it's worked for them before so they think that they can keep using it. What have they got to lose?

    Parent
    It is amusing (none / 0) (#77)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:54:03 PM EST
    that the GOPers, who up until recently were screaming that the CIA was deliberately sabotaging little Georgie and totally to blame for the WMD in Iraq mess, etc., are now stoutly insisting the CIA could never, ever, possibly make a mistake or deceive anyone.

    Pelosi has handled this really, really badly, IMHO, but I fundamentally believe her version of events.


    Parent

    Yes, they can be amusing and frustrating, (none / 0) (#90)
    by DeborahNC on Sat May 16, 2009 at 11:06:56 PM EST
    but you must admit, they are consistent. The following formulas represent the GOP's standard thinking:

    GOP + any action= Excellent decision! Very wise!
    Dems + same action= Disgusting!  Reprehensible!

    Double standards? Just a bit.


    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#97)
    by jbindc on Sun May 17, 2009 at 06:56:19 AM EST
    You think Nancy is telling the truth?

    Even Panetta called her out in a letter to cIA employees and said Pelosi lied...

    "Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values. As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing "the enhanced techniques that had been employed." Ultimately, it is up to Congress to evaluate all the evidence and reach its own conclusions about what happened."


    Parent
    I'm sure that's what he would like you to (none / 0) (#98)
    by Anne on Sun May 17, 2009 at 09:32:43 AM EST
    think, and it looks like it worked.  I think you have to look at what Panetta did say and what he didn't - sometimes at the same time.

    Panetta didn't say that the CIA told Congress that the techniques had already been used on Zubaydah, and one has to believe that he didn't say that because the notes do not support that assertion.

    But he is saying that Congress ought to investigate to determine what really happened.  And I could not agree more.

    From Marcy Wheeler:

    The CIA briefing list records that the following people participated in the briefing: Nancy Pelosi, her staffer Michael Sheehy, Porter Goss, his staffer Tim Sample, briefers from the CounterTerrorism Center (CTC), and the Office of Congressional Affairs (OCA; elsewhere, we've been told four people, total, from CIA attended).  

    While CIA doesn't say it, the chances are very good that the head of CTC was among the four CIA officials who attended that briefing--he probably led the briefing. On September 4, 2002, the head of CTC was Jose Rodriguez.

    Who is Jose Rodriguez?  He's the guy who oversaw the destruction of the torture tapes - he's admitted that - although he has a story about why.

    Rodriguez doesn't deny having the torture tapes destroyed--tapes showing Abu Zubaydah's torture, which Rodriguez probably briefed Nancy Pelosi incompletely on on September 4, 2002. Rather, he says that 1) they had intended to destroy the tapes going back to 2002, 2) Congress had been briefed on the plan to destroy them in 2003, and 3) Rodriguez got the legal okay to destroy them in 2005.

    Who is the other suspect in the torture tape destruction?  Porter Goss as Director of CIA in 2005.

    We know that Goss was explicitly warned, in writing, not to destroy the torture tapes. We know that Goss didn't tell Rodriguez not to destroy the tapes. And there are reasons to believe that the rest of Goss' story about the torture tape is less than forthcoming.

    So Jose Rodriguez, may have, at a time when (he now says) he was already thinking about destroying the torture tapes of Abu Zubaydah's torture, briefed Nancy Pelosi and Porter Goss on the techniques used to torture Zubaydah. He, or someone else at the briefing, went back afterwards and wrote down what he remembered from the briefing, which is that he described the techniques used on Zubaydah (though not neecssarily that he had told Pelosi and Goss those techniques had been used). Porter Goss has said Nancy Pelosi is nuts not to have assumed--at that time--that they were going to use waterboarding going forward. But even he, thus far, has not claimed that CIA told them torture had already been used.

    So, the two prime suspects in the torture tape destruction are present when Pelosi is briefed - and in all the statements that have been flying about, Goss isn't really disputing, and the CIA, through Panetta, isn't really disputing, that they did not brief her that the CIA was already using the enhanced interrogation techniques.

    Is it any wonder, then, that the focus now is to bring Pelosi down?  This is all bright-shiny-object stuff designed to keep people from realizing that the CIA did NOT properly brief the Congress on waterboarding.

    Back to parsing Panetta's statement:

    This is a statement given at a time when the very people being investigated (probably)--Rodriguez and Goss--are two of the three key players in the briefing at the time.And this is a statement that narrowly affirms the accuracy of the briefing (given the briefing notes), while admitting that Congress should determine the full story. Yes, Panetta gives that narrow defense of CIA's statement. But the bulk of Panetta's statement implores the rest of CIA not to get hung up on the circus happening around them.  

    Panetta is doing two things. First, affirming that CIA has not misrepresented what got recorded in the briefing notes and that the language of the briefing notes is accurate--as far as that goes. And, at the same time, casting doubt on the full meaning of the statement while imploring the rest of CIA not to get distracted by yet another challenge to CIA's credibility.

    They are extremely worried that someone is going to start listening to Nancy Pelosi, that she is going to get others to start calling for a thorough investigation, and therefore has to be neutralized.

    Also, if you go back and look at what Pelosi was saying back in 2002 and 2003, much of which is part of the public record, it is entirely consistent with what she is saying today.

    Pelosi has not been one of my favorite people of late - like the last two-plus years - and I think it is possible that she may have been protecting people when she refused to consider impeachment from 2006 forward.

    But - I think she has a target on her back, put there knowingly and unfairly, and with intent to distract and drum up opposition to any investigation.  

    I'm hoping she keeps talking, keeps the pressure on - because our own president doesn't seem to have much interest, which is a crying shame.

    Parent

    I disagree (none / 0) (#102)
    by jbindc on Sun May 17, 2009 at 11:45:38 AM EST
    I still think it's ludicrous to think the Speaker of the House didn't know about the waterboarding. Her denial would be laughable if the topic wasn't so horrific.

    I still think she's lying through her teeth and never expected to get caught with her pants down under a Democratic president.  She is perfecting the WORM technique and her latest press conference was a disaster.

    Do the Republicans smell blood here?  You betcha.
    But I think Nancy's chickens are coming home to roost.

    Sure explains why she took impeachment off the table even before the 2006 Dem-controlled Congress  was sworn.

    Parent

    You're making assumptions on the basis (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Anne on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:04:27 PM EST
    of your dislike for her, and not on what is actually out there, and what is actually being said.

    And then there is this, which seems to be getting lost in the shuffle - which means the campaign is working:

    Did Nancy Pelosi create the policy?

    Was she the President?  Was she the VP?

    Did she order up the memos?

    Did she order the implementation of torture?

    Did she destroy the torture tapes?

    Was this her doing?  

    No, No, No, No, No, No, and No.

    Did all the members of whatever Gang there was get the same briefings?  No.  It has already been pretty well-established that those who were regarded as possibly getting in the way of the plans did not get the same briefings as those who were assumed to be cooperative - so why isn't it what Pelosi - and Bob Graham, too, by the way - saying about it credible?

    Hate Pelosi if you want, but don't buy the bright, shiny object they are distracting you with.


    Parent

    No shiny objects here (none / 0) (#106)
    by jbindc on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:53:04 PM EST
    She has given 4 or 5 different versions of what she knew when she knew it - and that's just this week.  Her aide was briefed - did he keep things secret from her? Again - she is the Speaker of the House - she didn't know this stuff was going on???

    So, this is all a grand conspiracy to take down Nancy - from the CIA and the Republicans?  Look, the Republicans were in charge when this was going on - true.  So for them to act all innocent now is ridiculous.  But to think that Queen Nancy knew nothing is totally unbelievable. But your absolving her because she "wasn't in charge" is puzzling - she was (and is) the 3rd most powerful person in DC and she said nothing, until this week?

    Frankly, I think this is a case of the Dems being caught and they are circling the wagons and throwing out lame excuses ("Waaa! We didn't KNOW this was going on!") - Right.  They didn't hear the rumblings, or watch the news, or hear of any of this.  And now they are "Shocked!  Shocked, I tell you!" to find out that waterboarding was going on!  If they really didn't know, and didn't bother to investigate when the rest of us peons knew something was up, then shame on them, and more importantly, they are too stupid to hold the jobs they have.

    Hate Republicans, but realize the Dems have culpability in this too and their lame excuses aren't going to cut it.

    Parent

    Nancy Pelosi was not the Speaker (none / 0) (#110)
    by Anne on Sun May 17, 2009 at 03:50:14 PM EST
    of the House until Congress went into session in January of 2007; in 2002, she was the Minority Leader.

    Nancy Pelosi has consistently said that she was told about the techniques, that she was told the OLC had declared them legal, but that the CIA never told her that these techniques had been or were ever used.

    Bob Graham corroborates what Pelosi has been saying.

    The CIA has admitted that three of the four briefings it says it gave to Bob Graham never happened.

    The CIA did not give the same briefing to those entitled to be briefed, giving different briefings to those it deemed likely to cause trouble.

    Those briefed were prohibited, under the rules for such things, from talking to each other, to other members of Congress and to the media, about what they were being told.

    Now, I am not now absolving, nor have I ever absolved, Nancy Pelosi: but she is not the issue here.  Before you can go after her - or anyone else at the Congressional level - we need to know what was happening at the top of the food chain, and we have to examine what, exactly, those briefed could have done about it, given the restrictions placed on them, and we have to examine whether those restrictions are conducive to the kind of oversight that is needed.

    The CIA failed in its responsibility to consult the Congress; they gave the appearance of consulting, at least to Pelosi, by telling her - and she has been consistent on this point - that while OLC opined that the techniques were legal, they had not used them.

    Pelosi is a distraction, and for now and in some quarters, it's working.  The GOP does not want this investigated, that's clear.  Over and over you hear them acting as if there is nothing to see, nothing to know and nothing to be gained - sadly, that seems to be Obama's attitude, as well.  They are working overtime to make it a debate about what is and isn't torture, and whether it's effective, and you hear them go on and on about how no one did anything wrong.

    Well, if that's the case, why are they going after Pelosi?  Why attack her if no one violated any rules, or laws, or conventions?  My theory is they know, quite a few of them, that there was a whole lot of wrong going on - and they believe that if they can drag some Democrats into it, it will all magically go away.

    Sorry - I don't care if Democrats are found to have done some things they should not have - I think everyone who is found to have broken a law should have to be held accountable.

    What I am not willing to do is make Nancy Pelosi the fall guy, the target, the scapegoat, for people like Bush, Cheney, Bybee, Addington, Yoo, Rumsfeld, the CIA, the military.  Nancy Pelosi was not responsible for our government designing, implementing and then lying about the torture of people we detained.

    You can and will think whatever you want, but I'm not sure what you are currently thinking lends itself much to getting to the truth.


    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Mon May 18, 2009 at 12:39:45 PM EST
    I'm in the majority

    A majority of Democratic voters believe House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's claim that the CIA lied to her about interrogation techniques used on detainees in 2002, according to a new poll released Monday.

    The Rasmussen Reports survey reports that 62 percent of Democrats believe Pelosi's account. In contrast, the same number -- 62 percent -- of Republicans believe the California Democrat is not telling the full truth.

    Among all voters, 43 percent believe Pelosi while 41 percent do not.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22647.html#ixzz0FsfIRqYG&B

    I don't give a rat's hiney that she wasn't the one who could have ordered it. She had a duty to do something about it and she didn't, and still hasn't except make excuses.

    You're right - she was only the ranking member on the committee.  But she's been the Speaker for 2 years now - her aide, that knew about this, never told her? She JUST found out about this. Totally absurd.

    The problem is now is that she has lied about what she knew and when she knew it.  I don't know about you, but I'd like a Speaker that instills trust in me, and she certainly does not.

    Jay Leno said it best:

    She spent eight years telling everyone how dumb President Bush is and then, the minute you're trouble, "He fooled me!"

    Parent

    Please, I beg of you - (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anne on Mon May 18, 2009 at 10:24:08 PM EST
    do some research, read Marcy Wheeler, stop getting your info from places like Politico.

    You still have not explained how she was supposed to do anything within the restrictions of the National Security Act.  You haven't addressed whether the CIA and the President were in violation of the National Security Act.  There are so many elements to this, and yet you are taking some comfort in a Rasmussen poll of people who only know what the media are telling them?

    Pelosi said in December of 2007 the same thing that she is saying now.  All the articles that have her just now admitting for the first time are wrong - and people like you are just so willing to accept it as truth.

    Go read Somerby - maybe you'll believe him.

    She isn't lying, jb - nothing in the record suggests that she is - and the lack of corroborative evidence from the CIA that she is lying ought to tell you something.

    I find it just stunning that you believe that the Bush administration, which lied about pretty much everything, which seized an unprecedented amount of power, which manipulated intelligence at every step of the way - on Iraq, on wiretapping, on the US attorney firings, on torture - is telling the truth about what they told those few members of Congress about a policy they never consulted the Congress about.

    How do you explain that Bob Graham's recollections are consistent with Pelosi's?  Are they in it together?  Are his notes wrong?

    As I understand it, there was initially no briefing of the Gang of 8 - it was only 4, and it included staffers.  Staffers are not permitted to be present when briefings are being given on covert activity - so did the CIA violate the National Security Act by briefing on classified intel in the presence of staffers?

    And if it was a briefing on covert activity, the CIA was violating the National Security Act by not including the Party leaders in the House and Senate.

    If this wasn't about covert activity, the CIA was supposed to brief the full committees - why didn't they?

    As I mentioned earlier, the CIA has already just made up dates for briefings that never took place - but for some reason, you are choosing to believe that if the CIA said it, it must be true.

    I will be the first one to admit I was wrong if it turns out that Pelosi knew more than she says she did - but based on what she has consistently said, and in view of the lack of evidence to the contrary, and until there is a full investigation, I am choosing to believe that she is not lying about what she knew.

    And I will continue to maintain that she isn't the proper target for people's anger; Bush, Cheney, Addington, Yoo, Bybee, Bradbury, Gonzales, Rice, Tenet, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld - those are the people responsible for the torture of detainees.

    Parent

    Think Progress catches Repubs admitting this is (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:54:58 PM EST
    all about getting the Dems to drop truth commissions or investigations.

    Question for the Dems is will the Repubs succeed? The Repub goals are in synch with Obama's goals on this, so who knows....

    Isn't that special.

    Parent

    It (none / 0) (#93)
    by cal1942 on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:07:54 AM EST
    was absolutely obvious from the start.

    Parent
    Former Sen Bob Graham backs up Pelosi--and he kept (none / 0) (#57)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:14:29 PM EST
    daily diaries of all his activities. Says he was never briefed on waterboarding or other extraordinary techniques.

    Has this been covered by the MCM, on the evening news broadcasts? Or is this going to get the fog treatment and then go down the memory hole?

    Amato at Raw Story covers three sources of good coverage, Shuster, Sargent, and Fallows.

    Parent

    Graham took notes? (none / 0) (#66)
    by EL seattle on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:19:23 PM EST
    I thought that these meetings were hyper-secret ultra-confidential things.  Maybe there are rules for the secure storage of notes after one of these meetings...?

    Parent
    I heard about this last night (none / 0) (#69)
    by nycstray on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:28:36 PM EST
    and this morning on the ride up to the farm, the young woman sitting next to me had just listened to an NPR podcast that she had DLed for the trip. She was absolutely amazed. Apparently he wrote down everything, including what he ate etc. They are those small little notebooks (4x6, iirc) and he has a lifetimes worth, lol!~ From what she described to me I'd say he was slightly AR . .  

    Parent
    Graham couldn't take (none / 0) (#75)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat May 16, 2009 at 07:51:27 PM EST
    notes in the meetings themselves, but he kept extensive, bordering on obsessive-compulsive, notes on his daily activities, including meetings and briefings, as well as how he had his breakfast egg and whether he put strawberry or raspberry jam on his toast.

    If he says a meeting didn't happen, it didn't happen, period.

    Parent

    That sounds right. (none / 0) (#78)
    by EL seattle on Sat May 16, 2009 at 08:10:26 PM EST
    But if he kept notes that were written after the fact, I'd assume that there might be rules that would cover what sort of specific details from the content of confidential meetings could be included in the notes...?

    Parent
    "obsessive-compulsive" (none / 0) (#80)
    by nycstray on Sat May 16, 2009 at 08:30:34 PM EST
    I was going to say AR or OCD, but I'm so freakin' tired from planting potatoes and leeks, I couldn't remember what OCD stood for, lol!~ so I left it with AR :)

    Parent
    Major SCOTUS case yet to (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 04:48:52 PM EST
    be decided:

    AP

    Thnx for reminder: The SCOTUS boiz sounded pretty (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:37:18 PM EST
    cavalier about children's rights in the strip search case, and awfully dense about the effect of strip searches on girls in particular.

    Amazing.

    Parent

    Re the blogging book: any mention (none / 0) (#41)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:35:44 PM EST
    of TL or its bloggers?

    Note: my libs doesn't have this book. (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:06:31 PM EST
    Request it--May even purchase it, or at least get (none / 0) (#58)
    by jawbone on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:15:12 PM EST
    from other libraries.

    Parent
    I may. Except will I have time to (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Sat May 16, 2009 at 06:16:34 PM EST
    read it, given my addiction to TL?

    Parent
    Another challenge to same-sex marriage ban (none / 0) (#47)
    by Cream City on Sat May 16, 2009 at 05:42:45 PM EST
    coming in the Wisconsin Supreme Court, for those here following such cases and the general trends around the country.  Interesting reports, too, of a state govt memo said to side with the challenge, that the constitutional amendment is illegal.

    Well, I already knew that the amendment was stoopid -- but it did its intended job of getting out the vote of the righties in the 2006 elections.  Unfortunately, since then, they have kept turning out to turn the state supreme court to a majority of righties now.  So they probably will do the rightie thing, which would be the wrong thing.

    Guatemala, Torture, Drugs, Lawyers. (none / 0) (#83)
    by kidneystones on Sat May 16, 2009 at 09:01:19 PM EST
    Lawyer predicts his own murder. Anyone who believes that Cheney and Bush are responsible for torture in America might want to check out the sad history of Guatemala, where an attorney inquiring into links between the Guatemalan President and the First Lady and the murder of a father and daughter was gunned down two days after predicting his own murder, and accusing the President. The background to the story illuminates bi-partisan support for Guatemalan torturers and mass-murderers and the liberal disconnect on drugs. The overwhelming majority of drugs consumed in America are distributed by the same folks torturing and terrorizing citizens of Mexico, Columbia, Afghanistan, and other nations around the globe feeding America's drug habit.

    When an American purchases cocaine, heroin, or marijuana from these cartels they are doing business with the same folks who torture and terrorize their own citizens.

    Congratulations!

    Star Trek gets a solid B+ from me, (none / 0) (#94)
    by andgarden on Sun May 17, 2009 at 12:39:31 AM EST
    and I'm a harsh critic.

    It's was great blown up to IMAX.