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Lakoff's Prescription: Political Misdirection

George Lakoff is back selling his particular brand of "political discourse." He has always claimed Obama as a disciple (no one told Obama I think.) Lakoff's thinking is not exactly harmful but it is cloying. In a dkos diary, he writes:

[T]here will be a vision of America—a moral vision and a view of unity that the pundits often miss. What they miss is the Obama Code. For the sake of unity, the President tends to express his moral vision indirectly. . . . [Obama] connects with his audience using what cognitive scientists call the “cognitive unconscious.” Speaking naturally, he lets his deepest ideas simply structure what he is saying.

(Emphasis supplied.) Um, ok. I especially like the whole "express[ing] his moral vision indirectly" thing. Not the Straight Talk Express I take it. Anyway, this is all hooey. Obama did not invent the Post Partisan Unity Schtick though he is an especially fine practitioner of it. He is no Gladstone that's for sure. But the idea of seeking "unity" by ignoring actual policy is a particularly absurd Lakoffian conceit. Lakoff writes:

The third crucial idea behind the Obama Code is biconceptualism, the knowledge that a great many people who identify themselves ideologically as conservatives, or politically as Republicans or Independents, share those fundamental American values—at least on certain issues. Most “conservatives” are not thoroughgoing movement conservatives, but are what I have called “partial progressives” sharing Obama’s American values on many issues. Where such folks agree with him on values, Obama tries, and will continue to try, to work with them on those issues if not others. And, he assumes, correctly believe, that the more they come to think in terms of those American values, the less they will think in terms of opposing conservative values.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Obama's poll numbers are cratering with self-described "conservatives" while going up with self described liberals. This is of course, perfectly predictable because Lakoff's belief in the ephemeral is empty and useless. Lakoff writes:

The potential pushback will come not just from conservatives who do not share his values, but just as much from progressives who make the mistake of thinking that programs are values and that progressivism is defined by a list of programs. When some of those programs are cut as economically secondary or as unessential, their defenders will inevitably see this as a conservative move rather than a move within an overall moral vision they share with the President. This separation between values and programs lies behind the president’s pledge to cut programs that don’t serve those values and support those that do — no matter whether they are proposed by Republicans or Democrats. The President’s idealistic question is, what policies serve what values? — not what political interests?

If Lakoff mattered, this idea that the actual POLICIES a President and a government enact do not matter as long as "we share values" would be pernicious. The whole point of government is enacting policies, not some EST session.

Luckily for us, Lakoff does not actually matter and we can just point and laugh at the gibberish he presents.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    I don't get it (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Steve M on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:34:46 AM EST
    Maybe I'm just too much of an elite to understand how brilliantly Obama has tapped into the zeitgeist of the American people.  And maybe I'm too much of a rube to understand Lakoff's brilliant explanation of it!

    He's An Academician... (5.00 / 6) (#35)
    by santarita on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:35:32 AM EST
    He is supposed to write in a convoluted fashion to make you feel foolish or stupid for not being able to understand him easily.  Also he can't write simply because what he has to say he could say in three or four short paragraphs.  Word count is important.

    Parent
    Word count WAS important in High School (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:30:54 AM EST
    I couldn't get that A I so badly sought if I didn't even make the word count :)  I remember that being one of the last things that had to be done before I had to get out the dictionary to check all my spellings and punctuation :)

    Parent
    We had a ... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by santarita on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:39:24 AM EST
    long time high school history teacher who required a paper on some historical theme at the end of every year.  Legend had it that he didn't read the papers.  He just looked at the length.  So people just made stuff up as filler.  My fable was about the Irish washerwoman and Boss Tweedy.  I got an A.

    Parent
    Too bad he couldnt (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:51:08 PM EST
    have stretched it out to "bioconceptualizationism"
    : that probobly would've impressed his fellow academic Illuminati-Freemason-Cabalists to no end.

    What did Shaw say about professions always being a conspiracy against the laity?

    Parent

    Tell that to (none / 0) (#90)
    by NYShooter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 06:28:06 PM EST
    Glenn Greenwald.

    Parent
    Just read it (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by Coral on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:37:05 AM EST
    Agree with you totally. Do we judge FDR on his values or the programs he pushed through Congress? Social Security anyone?

    I would argue we judge on both (none / 0) (#13)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:18:26 AM EST
    his values and the fact that his policies were consistent with them. One without the other means failure.

    Parent
    The thing for me about FDR and some the (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:40:57 AM EST
    "values" that he is most well known for,  I think some of those "values" develped as he had to enact the policies that the nation needed or we were busted losers.....and then he experienced where those policies led us from and took us to and it was rewarding on many levels.  I walked through the FDR Memorial a few years back before this meltdown, and I got chills reading some of his best quotes.  There's too much evidence out there that FDR began his political career as a spoilt rich brat though.

    Parent
    Does this man really believe (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by mogal on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:37:18 AM EST
    Obama writes his own speeches?

    Yes- at least parts of them (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by samtaylor2 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    He has written two very good books.  

    Parent
    "He has written two very good books. " (2.00 / 0) (#88)
    by dualdiagnosis on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 05:37:28 PM EST
    At least parts of them.

    Parent
    yeah, fiction (none / 0) (#100)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Feb 27, 2009 at 07:18:57 PM EST
    and ps.. he didn't write them alone.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Faust on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:00:27 AM EST
    I actually think some of what he writes is about as good as your going to get as far as a formulation of the PPUS is concerned. Given that the PPUS is pure idealism and as such represents a vision of how things COULD be or even how they should be and not how they ARE descriptions of it are going to be pretty pictures and not good maps for pragmatic action.

    This line "but just as much from progressives who make the mistake of thinking that programs are values" is really where the thinking turns from a pretty picture of a somewhat nebulous "moral vision" to stupidity.

    It's a confusion of categories I think. Programs are attempts to implement values. It's true that a cake is not a recipie, but to make a cake you have to implement a recipie. Programs are manifestations of values as Lakoff immediately admits: "The President's idealistic question is, what policies serve what values? -- not what political interests?" So he DOES understand that programs are implementation of values but he is trying to connect this idea to the value of PPUS and "non-partisan pragmatism." However, there is no way to make a program out of a value of no values.


    Um, what? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:04:45 AM EST
    OK (none / 0) (#50)
    by Faust on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:19:28 PM EST
    Lets assume

    1. That I'm trying to say something intelligible
    2. That you are actually asking for clarification

    Probably you dispute 1. and I doubt 2. but one has to start with "hope."

    So in this vein, do you think that programs and policies are manifestations of or implementations of values? For example: lets say I believe abortion is wrong(value). I want to pass a bill (program) banning it into law. Value--->Program.

    Do you agree that there is a correspondence here?

    Parent

    Clap, clap, clap, clap (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:15:49 AM EST
    You just hoist Lakoff on his own Lakoffian petard.  Well done!


    Parent
    You Get a Gold Star for Reading the... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by santarita on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:04:09 AM EST
    whole thing.  I disagreed with his initial premise about the Obama Code.  With some notable exceptions,  Obama is fairly consistent in words and actions.  It is the people who chose to give significance to his words that need to do contortions to align words and actions.  

    And I just got irritated with the obvious self-contradiction about values and programs.  Initially he suggests that values trumps programs but then he ends up talking about programs that Obama keeps or cuts as expressing his values.  And I couldn't get past the paragraph dealing with progressive values as being the real American values.  Conservatives certainly believe just the opposite.  Lakoff veers from the descriptive to the polemical.    

    Parent

    Conservatives zealously believe the (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:50:25 AM EST
    opposite about what group really represents America's real values.

    Parent
    Looks like Strauss won the Lakoff Bake-Off (none / 0) (#98)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 05:18:47 PM EST
    ... if I'm reading his recipie rightly.

    Parent
    est made a lot more sense (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:16:20 AM EST
    than this gibberish

    lol!~ (none / 0) (#66)
    by nycstray on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 02:36:42 PM EST
    hopefully the decoder rings are in the mail  ;)

    Parent
    Lakoff drives me crazy (5.00 / 7) (#10)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:16:34 AM EST
    I think Lakoff is right on the money when he talks about how Democrats allow Republicans to "frame" the debate. I am very familiar with the large body of research in this area and Lakoff is right about the importance of framing in communication. He has correctly diagnosed a major problem of the Democrats.  

    Unfortunately, I think Lakoff completely misses the mark with his proposed solutions to the problem. Obama needs to give rationales for his policies grounded in clearly stated values that are important to the majority of Americans. But it is equally important that he clearly tie his policies to those values and rationales, particularly when we are facing so many crises. And he needs to give clear, concise explanations of why his policies will work. The trick is to communicate in a way that the general public can understand. Just speaking in generalizations to people facing big problems is like an oncologist telling a patient about his goal of curing their cancer without giving some specifics about the treatment and why he thinks it is the best course. (This would be particularly bad if the patient was also hearing from a lot of snake-oil salesmen promoting a miracle cure.)

    Bill Clinton always gave specifics in his State of the Union addresses. Not surprisingly the media always carped about how long and boring they were, the "laundry list" of "trivial" programs, etc. but public approval was always high. Clearly the Americans want and appreciate specifics even if our vaunted journalists are bored by them.

    I heard today that this speech is not going to give a lot of specifics, which I think will be a big mistake. Obama got away with speaking in lofty generalities during the primaries not because he was connecting with the public's "cognitive unconscious" (barf) but because the economic meltdown had turned the public against the Republicans, IMHO. He needs to put some meat on the bones of his address.

    "The Gnostic Obama" (5.00 / 12) (#14)
    by lambert on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    See, he can't convey his "moral message" directly, so he conveys it in code.

    A code to be interpreted for the canaille.

    By priests.

    Like Lakoff.

    What a steaming pile of Unity Pony output. No doubt, Lakoff will make a lot of consulting (priestly) bucks for interpreting Obama's Words for the masses.

    What kind of "moral message" needs a secret decoder ring?

    A secret unifying message (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by ruffian on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:58:18 AM EST
    Kind of like subliminal advertising, I guess? I always thought unifying moral principles are the ones people speak about right out loud.

    The Obama we can see right out in the open is a very capable, gifted guy. With the right policy choices and a little luck, he can be a great president. Why isn't that enough for these people?

    Parent

    High Priest of WORM (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by santarita on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:53:53 AM EST
    Thank goodness that we have someone like Lakoff to comfort us when President Obama does something not consistent with progressive values.

    Parent
    Dude, you're such a DIYer (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:58:29 AM EST
    Now you wanna decode your own biconceptialism communicating with the cognitive unconscious.  It just figures you would have your own cognitive unconscious too......showoff.  It wasn't good enough for you to be like the rest of us and stick with/be happy with having a regular old asleep/passed out unconscious.

    Parent
    "Buy Ovaltine"? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:49:16 AM EST
    ;)

    Parent
    I made a similar comment (none / 0) (#94)
    by joanneleon on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 12:09:06 AM EST
    in that diary this morning, including a bit about a decoder ring.

    It didn't go over well.  

    I was even told to "keep moving" and not to comment if I didn't like the "analysis".

    Parent

    Hilarity ensues (none / 0) (#95)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 10:28:23 AM EST
    What kind of "analysis" isn't open to critique?

    Parent
    I remember (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:19:02 AM EST
    listening to George Lakoff at a national Wes Clark meet-up in the summer of 2005 via teleconference and thinking Lakoff had a lot of good advice on how to address the messaging Republicans were using to great political advantage. Perhaps the recent Democratic successes in 2006 and 2008 make his advice less useful than before.  Although I still have a lot of respect for him, I am not so impressed by the dKos diary you linked to here.  The diary is neither as clear and straightforward nor as applicable as his earlier advice.   I'm not laughing at it but I am shaking my head hoping he doesn't do much more of the same.

    If I could put my finger on (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Steve M on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:23:26 AM EST
    why Obama is broadly popular right now, I would identify a combination of various factors:

    (1) these are tough times, and people are hungry for leadership; (2) Obama is generally seen as smart, competent and in control; and (3) he refrains from vocalizing any sort of tough moral choice, generally rejecting them all as false.

    I think he has made a conscious judgment that by not openly choosing one set of values over another, he can achieve broader support for his actual policies.  I don't think Lakoff is right, that he's sending out coded moral signals that a majority of people agree with.  I think people are just picking up the signals that they want to pick up.

    Or it could just be ... (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:38:58 AM EST
    that he's the only game in town.

    Parent
    Or the opposition is seen as responsible (5.00 / 7) (#23)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:44:57 AM EST
     for a world wide economic meltdown. When the only other game is town has proven itself to be horribly incompetent it is natural for people to give you the benefit of the doubt. The only choice is deep despair.

    Parent
    That's what I meant ... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:48:09 AM EST
    by him being "the only game in town."

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Steve M on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:14:52 AM EST
    that is subsumed in my point #1.

    Parent
    Watch that subsuming ... (none / 0) (#86)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    I hear it can be dangerous to your health.

    ;)

    Parent

    Bingo. BHO benefits from being not-Bush (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by Pacific John on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:24:52 AM EST
    ...and that doesn't take a magic decoder ring or secret writing in Latin.

    This blather overlook the simplest facts:  

    • presidents get honeymoons
    • Obama looks good on camera
    • The tide shifted our way when W destroyed his brand

    Everything else is just pseudo-intellectual rationalization over Obama having a Reganesque stage presence.

    Parent
    You mean (none / 0) (#53)
    by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:31:34 PM EST
    Reaganesque?  Or do you mean Reganesque?

    Parent
    a (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Pacific John on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:21:45 PM EST
    Reagan-esque. I hate when I do that.

    Parent
    Lakoff reminds me ... (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:32:23 AM EST
    of someone trying to convince themselves that their two-timing spouse really loves them.

    He's really a 3rd rate guru, isn't he? (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:38:05 AM EST


    Isn't he the person Stellaaa talked (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:53:43 AM EST
    about earlier?

    Parent
    No idea what you're talking about (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:01:06 AM EST
    Answer: yes. (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    He's a major force (none / 0) (#89)
    by weltec2 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 05:54:25 PM EST
    at UC Berkeley. He has been especially since Metaphors We Live By which he wrote with Mark Johnson in 1980.

    Parent
    It's about how to communicate (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:41:23 AM EST
    The idea of frames is powerful. For example, most Americans have internalized the uber-manly, tought guy "cowboy/frontiersman" frame. We have a powerful aversion to feminine qualities in their leaders. Most of us have internalized these ideas because they are a foundation of our national myth. The rugged, self-made individualist is highly romanticized, powerful frame in our culture (though maybe less so in younger generations who have not grown up watching Westerns on a regular basis).

    Reagan successfully evoked that myth with his ranch, wood splitting, horseback riding, etc. Bush deliberately imitated him by buying his Crawford ranch when he decided to run for president. It was amazing to me how readily the media and public bought into this phoney macho posturing given Bush's past history as a spoiled frat boy and draft dodger.

    For years Republicans have not only coopted the macho cowboy image for themselves, they have also successfully framed Democrats as "girlie-men" either explicitly (Arnold S.) or implicitly by calling them effete, eggheads, etc. Democrats have never been good at countering these strategies. (Bill Clinton was lucky to go up against Bush I who was weirdly tagged with the "Wimp" label even though he was a fighter pilot in WW II who had been shot down in combat so he did not have as big a challenge as Gore later did.)

     

    I've been trying to figure out all day (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:01:39 PM EST
    why I find Lakoff so irrelevant at this point and your comment helped me put my finger on it.  Words, frames, rhetoric are all important.  I agree with that basic point, but when we face a national crisis the actions that back up the words really tend to take on a much greater importance.  That's partly due to the fact that the audience is paying much closer attention and have a greater sensitivity to the impact of the actions than they do in more "normal" times.  People won't care about the values or ideology behind various actions.  They will be focused on results.

    The GOP are going with an ideological argument and they are falling flat on their faces right now and that is precisely because people don't want to talk about the situation - they just want action taken to relieve the pain.  Imagery just doesn't cut it when everyone is focused on what's really happening around them as they are right now.

    Likewise, Obama's bipartisan gig may have created some good will for him in the midst of this economic crisis, it is pretty clear that people don't really care that much about the process.  They care about the results.  The results will define Obama's success in the end, not whether or not he was nice to Republicans in the process.

    Parent

    um, no, he isn't. (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by cpinva on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:01:51 AM EST
    Obama did not invent the Post Partisan Unity Schtick though he is an especially fine practitioner of it.

    unless you mean solely as an intellectual exercise. otherwise, he's a pretty pathetic  practitioner. see: only 3 republicans could be convinced to vote for his stimulus bill. hardly what i (or anyone else with more than one functioning synapse) would call a "fine" performance.

    Lakoff reminds me ... of someone trying to convince themselves that their two-timing spouse really loves them.

    you mean she doesn't? that can't be! why, she smiled at me, as she left to go to that nice mr. smith's house (who's wife was, sadly, taken by aliens), to help him over his grief.

    (3) he refrains from vocalizing any sort of tough moral choice, generally rejecting them all as false.

    not quite true; he has stated his opposition to same-sex marriage. though he has refrained from telling us how, in his informed opinion, this would be bad for our society.

    what he mostly does is not say much of anything of real substance, thereby avoiding the unpleasant possibly of being proven wrong. i guess that's leadership, of a sort.

    I should never have read that. (5.00 / 6) (#31)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:12:12 AM EST
    Vision and mysticism and code and unity and morality - cue the heavenly light and the choir of angels.  Ugh.

    A more honest essay would have simply acknowledged that Obama appears to want to be all things to all people, that he abhors direct and honest confrontation on matters of principle, will go to great lengths to avoid being rejected, and is still struggling to define himself.  He wants to be above the fray, not in the middle of it where it's messy.

    In this battle to shape, define and implement policy, I fear that the more the Republicans and conservatives reject him, the harder he will strive to accommodate them, to our ultimate detriment.  We have already seen evidence of this on a number of fronts and on a number of issues - some of it we saw long before he was even nominated, but too few people were willing to give up their systematic deification of the man to confront that reality.

    But, here we are.  

    I want a genial wonk who loves to work and suss out the details and burn the midnight oil - yeah, I know that's Bill Clinton; Obama ought to be studying Clinton "game film" - he could learn a lot that would stand him in good stead.


    Anne, we all know you are an (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:15:51 AM EST
    Obama shill.  Don't try and hide that in your rhetoric.  

    Parent
    You cracked the code! (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:19:31 AM EST
    You are a truly special person...I am in awe.

    Parent
    Oh, snap! (none / 0) (#96)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 10:30:02 AM EST
    [claps]

    Parent
    Lakoff made sense... (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by Pacific John on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    ... as long as he was talking about articulating progressive moral values, and contrasting them with social Darwinst hooey. Once he found a candidate, he tossed it all out the window with rationalizations about "code."

    BTW, his ex-wife's language doesn't seem to emanate from a love-struck fog like George's does. BTW, you can actually measure what Robin Lakoff says in the Nov. exit polls. George? Not so much.

    For real advice on linguistics, I go to physicist Richard Feynman who lived by the rule than if you can't say something simply, you don't quite understand it.

    Thank you Robin Lakoff. (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:35:46 AM EST
    (Can't imagine these two sitting in the same room trying to talk to each other about the same subject.)

    Parent
    thanks (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 06:46:43 PM EST
    I love what Robin had to say and she got it right.  


    Parent
    Oh dear god. (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:44:47 AM EST
    Well, this may explain what Krugman noted is the unwillingness to the Obama team to go out on a limb and say "bank nationalization" or "HOLC" -  "Even the programs championed by progressives may not fit what the President sees as the fundamental values of the country. He is seeking to align the programs of his administration with those values."  Obama should not be on a mystical search for true American values - he should create values.  We are in a new world with new opportunities.

    And I do not believe you can separate programs and values.  Obama may "value" freedom - but he will not legalize gay marriage.  His sense of freedom there is a DELUSION.  Obama may "value" anti-torture policy - but apparently Binyam Mohamed was beaten this past month in GITMO.  And what of that?  Values need also to be expressed and enforced.  Encouraged and rewarded.  

    Maybe these issues don't pop up on Lakoff's radar...because he doesn't really value them.

    Well, Lakoff is a linguist (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:10:11 AM EST
    and he's interested in the philosophy of language.

    You should try being a scientist and dealing with philosophers of language.... oy.

    Other than that, he seems pretty lovestruck.

    I just looked at endorsements for (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:23:51 AM EST
    Lakoff's "Elephant" book.  Howard Dean.  George Soros.  Publisher's Weekly review opined John Kerry speaking on the war in Iraq when he ran against Bush may have read Lakoff.  

    Parent
    Now that some endorsement! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:26:06 PM EST
    Kerry was really successful at that!

    Parent
    heh. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Mike Pridmore on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:33:42 PM EST
    Very successful.  At boring people to tears.

    Parent
    I can't get past where he says most (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Teresa on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:29:36 PM EST
    conservatives are "partial progressives". Maybe that's why I call myself liberal. Or maybe he doesn't know any conservatives from Tennessee. Are there partially good conservatives in Berkeley? That would be what we call Democrats here, I guess.

    Well conservatives are partially progressive (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:17:21 PM EST
    based on my expert opinion.  See, when a conservative gets partially through their life, they spend the second part progressing in their conservatism.  See, partially progressive, I know......it's bizarre :)

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by CST on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:19:04 PM EST
    he is talking about a certain brand of republican, from places like california and the northeast.  They tend(ed) to be fiscall conservatives with fairly liberal social values.

    They have also, for the most part, ceased to exist in any significant number. One reason being that the "fiscall conservatives" just lost out big time when the economy crashed.  And Republicans have hardly been representing the "fiscall conservatives" for the last 8 years.

    So yea, I guess for the most part they are now "conservative democrats".

    Parent

    They still exist... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:36:32 PM EST
    they just have no party representing their values and views.  Sh*t, I'm a fiscal conservative.  Balanced budgets, small federal government, low taxes...all sound good to me...but no one is selling it, one side is selling big spend big tax big debt, and the other is selling low tax big spend big debt.

    Parent
    To clarify (none / 0) (#68)
    by CST on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:12:01 PM EST
    "ceased to exist" on the political front.  The moderate-republican politicians who represented these people were replaced en masse by democrats.  There are certainly still people with these views, you are right, they just have no more representation in the gov't. My guess is, when chosing btwn "socially liberal, big government" and "socially conservative, big government" - the fiscal question no longer remains in the equation so they are more closely aligned to democrats.

    I still say, the "tax" part of the "tax and spend" government should handle the "big debt" problem.  Which is why I replaced it with "big government" :).

    Parent

    Definitely right... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by kdog on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:33:18 PM EST
    I got ya now...there is no fiscally conservative presence in the current government...some play like they are, but it is only when talking about very particular spending they personally don't like.  The faux fiscal conservatives in Congress never b*tch about the cost of the Iraq occupation, for example, and a real principled fiscal conservative would.

    As for "tax" covering the spend, that is definitely preferred to borrow or print and spend....but not necessarily a fix, all depends how much you spend and tax.  What would the tax rate have to be to cover all the spending in just the last few months?  I don't even wanna know...just tell Uncle Sam my 5k vig is already pushing it:)

    Parent

    Some of us like to think (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by CST on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:36:40 PM EST
    That if the tax rate had covered previous spending, and if the spending had gone towards things like education, science, technology, infrastructure, and health care funding (instead of useless wars...); we wouldn't have needed the emergency spending to begin with.

    But I get your point, I guess I am ok with borrowing for "emergencies" and then eliminating the defecit the rest of the time.  And hopefully spending in such a way that eliminates these emergencies.

    I know Clinton got lucky with the tech boom, but Bush could've gotten lucky with a "green boom" if he had cared at all about funding it, instead of fighting it every step of the way.  Luck is part of it, but smart people can make their own luck, so to speak...

    Parent

    Are there any conservatives in (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:48:13 PM EST
    Berkeley?  Professor Lakoff has been teaching there since 1972, with the support of my tax dollar.

    Parent
    That's why I was wondering what kind of (none / 0) (#57)
    by Teresa on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 12:51:53 PM EST
    conservative he runs around with. He doesn't know the ones I know!

    Parent
    Moderate Dems (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:00:23 PM EST
    probably seem like conservatives to Lakoff.

    Parent
    PErhaps Professor Lakoff (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:15:18 PM EST
    will take on the problem of how to describe federal government's regulating the failing banks and possibly implanting a trustee.  Or, have the Dems. already lost this linguistic battle?  

    Parent
    Still don't get what Lakoff is talking about. (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 02:18:11 PM EST
    The President's idealistic question is, what policies serve what values? -- not what political interests?

    Did he miss the fun triangulating of recent days?  And what is this?

    Biconceptual, partly progressive, Republicans do exist in Congress, and the president is not going to give up on them. But as long as the conservative message machine can activate its values virtually unopposed in conservative districts, movement conservatives can continue to pressure biconceptual Republicans and keep them from voting their conscience on many issues. This is why a nationwide progressive message machine needs to be organized if the president is to achieve unity through biconceptualism.
     [emphasis supplied]

    Lakoff basically admitted that conservativism works because they are extremely partisan.  Party over conscience.  Their message machine is strong, widespread, and partisan.  It can "activate its values unopposed."

    But our message machine is supposed to be "biconceptual"?  Post-partisan?  [Although obviously the way Lakoff frames this, he does see there must be a progressive v. conservative battle - our message is going to be at war with theirs - but the goal in the end is not that we win, but that we all come together, or more specifically, that we peel off individual Republicans].  He wants us to bring a magic wand to a knife fight.

    Proposing a multiple party system would be more realistic.  Our actual electoral system - primaries and elections - is not going anywhere.  The primary threat is always going to be real.  Do Specter and Snowe think that Obama is going to help them campaign for re-election?  He's obviously not.

    "Biconceptual" sounds like a term that (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Anne on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:09:11 PM EST
    might be used in a fertility clinic, but I guess it's a fancy way to call someone a centrist; we will know this is a ridiculous term when Michelle Bachmann goes on national TV to rail about the threat of biconceptuals actually being allowed to marry.

    If we're going to have a nationwide progressive movement, I would much rather see it set a goal that goes beyond only getting to the middle, but that seems to be where Lakoff thinks it needs to go so as not to scare off the whatever-we're-calling-Republicans-with-open-minds.

    Here's a radical thought that I have been waiting for a real Democratic leader to have for a long, long time: how about really leading by making a convincing case for why our way is better, and do it in such a way that the damn Republicans/conservatives/right wing ideologues can't get a word in edgewise.  It's there, it could be done, but we keep acting like abused animals and giving up and rolling over and cowering as soon as one of the other side so much as frowns.

    Can I be a biconceptual if I think that on the one hand, this is not going to get us anywhere and on the other hand, I don't want to go where it might be taking us?  Or is that pretty much still uniconceptual?

    Parent

    Biconceptualism (none / 0) (#70)
    by lilburro on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:36:53 PM EST
    seems like a concept designed to (possibly) maximize political capital.  But Obama has a lot right now.  So why are we talking about this??  Did inviting Rick Warren to the inaugural accomplish anything?  I don't think so.

    Parent
    Maybe it would refer to (none / 0) (#71)
    by BernieO on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:39:36 PM EST
    someone who is pro-choice but also pro-free market. Which would mean a libertarian.

    Parent
    As to Warren, yes. His (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:40:17 PM EST
    eliding into the Lord's Prayer struck a dissonant note with me, the latent Lutheran.

    Parent
    Biconceptual? (none / 0) (#97)
    by lambert on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 10:34:57 AM EST
    Or just curious?

    Parent
    Why, oh why... (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:41:25 PM EST
    ...have our hosts abandoned us?!  No new posts since yesterday evening--no open thread in 24 hours.  

    Don't they know there's work to be avoided!!11!

    Reminder: this is a hobby, not (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 03:45:54 PM EST
    a paying position, for our hosts!

    Parent
    As is my... (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:00:24 PM EST
    ...desire to procrastinate the completion of my assigned duties.  :0

    Parent
    Ha. Here's something to (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:17:44 PM EST
    Shoot... (none / 0) (#80)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:35:10 PM EST
    ...its almost time for me to go home.  Hopefully there will be fresh posts when I log back in tonight.

    Plenty of local stuff here too--coyotes running wild chewing-up people and pets, gang busts, football players running amok--and of course, the silliness that is our legislature.

    Parent

    Coyotes: a subject dear to my (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:36:20 PM EST
    heart.  

    Parent
    This is good (none / 0) (#82)
    by JThomas on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:36:35 PM EST
    news that a timeline has been set for withdrawal...down to 30-50k trainers,special forces in 17 months...and the last american out another 14 months after that.

    Wind this disaster down. Bring this debacle to a close.Long overdue.

    Parent

    TChris must be on vacation....he hasn't (none / 0) (#84)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:42:51 PM EST
    posted since 2/10.


    Parent
    totally OT - Jennifer Brunner (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Fabian on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:11:52 PM EST
    Ohio's current SoS is taking questions for a Q&A session at 7 pm HERE.

    Brunner is running for the seat to be vacated by Senator Voinovich(R-OH).  She has at least one primary opponent - Lt Gov Lee Fisher.

    Pointing and laughing (4.83 / 6) (#1)
    by ruffian on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:33:27 AM EST
    Excellent, that's what I'm good at!

    Speaking naturally, he lets his deepest ideas simply structure what he is saying.

    Is this a review of Forrest Gump?

    This gibberish dressed up as analysis is so pretentious. I'm glad you read it, BTD, so I don't have to.

    I did read it - kind of. (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Fabian on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:17:13 AM EST
    I did try to read it, but it kept making no sense to me.

    It had this "Everything will all work out in the end." feel to it - without explaining exactly HOW this will happen.  

    Parent

    Try reading it again ... (5.00 / 10) (#19)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:35:05 AM EST
    with your biconceptualars on.  They're in the bottom draw next to the electric corkscrew.

    ;)

    Parent

    I keep mine in (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jondee on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 01:03:53 PM EST
    the enchanted wardrobe in the attic.

    Parent
    Lakoff in a nutshell: (none / 0) (#99)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Feb 25, 2009 at 05:19:49 PM EST
    "Don't Think of an Argument"

    Parent
    Beyond pointing and laughing (4.20 / 5) (#5)
    by ruffian on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 08:47:30 AM EST
    OK, I quickly moved on to the next stage of Lakoff reading, which seems to be aggravation approaching fury.

     Of course there are values most people share, let alone most Americans. Even Sting, hardly a brilliant political philosopher like Lakoff, knew "the Russians love their children too". Those shared values form the basis for living peacefully in the same country or planet. However, they are not enough to direct successful national policy. There are competing ideas on both what that is, and how to make it happen. Unity, as much as it can be achieved, is achieved by one side convincing the other that its ideas are correct.

    As I have said many times, the best way to do that is to put those ideas into action and show that they work and make a better country for most of the people. Conservative ideas, when put into action, have nearly destroyed the economy and our national reputation. It's time to try progressive ideas. If they work, there will be unity around them.

    Wait! (none / 0) (#16)
    by lambert on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 09:19:52 AM EST
    I forgot the "sheer personal awesomeness" part!

    pseudo-intellectual (none / 0) (#28)
    by nellre on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 10:00:39 AM EST
    By the time see get through the obfuscation and boil it down to plain English it's either trite or nonsense.

    Lets Parlay (none / 0) (#79)
    by joze46 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 04:28:45 PM EST
    If you read George Lakoff's book "Whose Freedom" one does gain an understanding the concept in framing an issue. It helped me cope with hate radio people. Especially understanding, Michael Savage, Limbaugh, Hannity, or cable types like Mathews, and Andre Mitchell's methods of persuasion. They are professionals that clearly know the ropes in verbal contextual bait and switch.

    It's interesting that Lakoff is calling this the Obama "Code" and the way some here characterize it. It was very funny to think of it as a, decode, like for deciphering hieroglyphics. But it's not with a giggle and a laugh it is not a decode sheet of some sort that will find the well of souls.

    For me it sounds like that type of code that is the "rule of political level invariants" you know an unwritten law. You know how politicals lie, walk around giving speeches, getting paid big bucks. Its more like in that pirate movie to "Parlay" to honor the code. For heaven sakes America is buying into this stuff called "ear marks" that to me are nothing more than manufactured public media circus fodder.

    Sort of like if you don't pass this bill it will be sensationalized on cable for weeks and juggle jabbered by Journalist till out rage occurs and total confusion take to the limit of exhaustion till it just passes because of huge argued fatigue to go away.

    If Obama pulls this off he will command big bucks for future speeches, he figured the code and knows how to shift gears on the Republicans. They the Republicans look tired. They can not match him. No one at that summit expressed the confidence and direction Obama messaged.      


    George Lakoff is (none / 0) (#87)
    by weltec2 on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 05:33:04 PM EST
    a Professor of Linguistics at UC Berkeley. IMO his problem is not that that his discussions are convoluted. His problem is that he tends to oversimplify complex systems, undermining the meaning of his terms as he does so. Take for example his book Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think(1996, 2002ed.) In that book he uses the metaphor of the family to describe the two camps. He starts like any good linguist by defining his terms. Then in Chapter Nine he writes, "The conservative (Strict Father) and liberal (Nuturant Parent) moral priorities create two different systems for categorizing moral actions" (162-63). He then looks at them one at a time, breaking them down in such a way that he undermines the meanings of his terms. In
    general, I think there is serious danger... too much room for abuse in such oversimplifications.

    fabulous (none / 0) (#91)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 06:34:13 PM EST
    just what I wanted in a president.. all style no substance.  Not that I am surprised at lakoff or at Obama's seeming to be all about how he is viewed and not about how well he governs.
    No I would say he is the perfect lakoff disciple, but then he always was.

    Lakoff probably had (none / 0) (#93)
    by JamesTX on Tue Feb 24, 2009 at 11:52:22 PM EST
    a more convincing theory when Republicans and conservatives were in control. The Republican base and the core conservative system was composed of and relied on two types of people, both of which had very little knowledge of or interest in policy. The first group was those who were doing rather well in terms of finances so that their lives didn't intersect with government or depend on government in any way, and who essentially saw no need for government in the face of their prosperity. The second were people who were poor, but who found comfort and practical support in clinging to tradition and white Christian identity in the face of accelerating social change. Both of these groups had their social lives almost completely controlled within discourse of fundamentalist churches, leaving them with few choices or issues grapple with. The churches taught anti-intellectualism, and convinced them regularly that life was at its best when they followed simple cultural codes and remained loyal to abstract values taught by their authorities. Lakoff's explanation was that they didn't care about policy -- only about abstract values. That was true. They knew nothing about government policy, and either didn't want to know or couldn't understand. The political message to them had nothing to do with policy. It was just values -- conservative, white, church-going values, and the comfort of maintaining the safety of their ingroup. That works as long as everyone has enough to eat and money to pay bills. What changed it was the financial collapse.

    I think Lakoff's ideas will prove less adequate in explaining how progressives vote and lend support to leaders.

    Lakoff described well the state of affairs that the conservative movement created. His error is in the assumption that conservatives gained power because people naturally focus on abstract values instead of policies. The conservative movement required people to do that and encouraged them to do that. It allowed them to maintain control. But it didn't arise because they naturally do that. The kind of political thought Lakoff describes is a product, rather than a cause of Republican victory.