home

Thursday Open Thread

Our last open thread is full. Here's a new one, all topics welcome.

What I'm following: Marco Rubio in Mexico, and his comments at a press conference after announcing yet another "task force" will be formed to fight drug traffickers. This one will include Mexican and American officials. Rubio calls it an "implementation force" -- a force that will act to fulfill Donald Trump's plan to murder suspected gang members who are believed to be involved with importing drugs or chemicals to the U.S.

Trump and Mario think it's legal to order the U.S. military to blow up a boat in international waters because intelligence sources said there were gang members and drugs aboard, headed to the U.S. Mario says: [More...]

[T}he President, under his authority as Commander-in-Chief, has a right under exigent circumstances to eliminate imminent threats to the United States, and that’s what he did yesterday in international waters, and that’s what he intends to do. We’re not going to sit back anymore and watch these people sail up and down the Caribbean like a cruise ship. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen anymore. They’re not going to bring drugs into the United States. We’re going to stop them. I know a lot of presidents have talked about doing it; this President is not a talker, he’s a doer. He’s going to do it.

What was Mexico's response to this? At the joint presser, Mexico's Foreign Affairs secretary said:

We have, as many of you may know, some basic principles in our constitution that rule our foreign policy. These principles are clearly stated in article 89 of our constitution, and some of them are very clear: self-determination. We believe in self-determination. Nonintervention. Peaceful solution of controversies. All countries are legally equal. We believe in cooperation for development, and so on. So these principles are the ones that really rule our foreign policy, and we are going to stick to them because that’s our mandate, and of course those have been also the instructions I have received from President Sheinbaum.

Shorter version: Mexico is not giving an inch when it comes their sovereignity. If the U.S. blows up a boat in Mexican waters, there will be hell to pay. Goodbye "implementation" force. Mexico is going to grab the free goodies: training, technology equipment, and all the "shared intel" the U.S. is offering, right up until the day the U.S. crosses the line. Mexico will then punt and say, bye-bye, we told you about Article 89.

Marco continued his anti-fentanyl strong man trip to Ecuador today. He also announced two Ecuadorian gangs were added to the narco-terrorist sanctions list: Los Choneros and Los Lobos.

The document, identified as 2025-17067, states that the Attorney General and Secretary of the Treasury, "concluded that there was sufficient grounds to apply Section 219 of the U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act. This law allows armed groups or drug trafficking networks to be designated as terrorist threats, which opens the door to economic sanctions, asset freezes, immigration restrictions, and greater intelligence sharing between agencies."

Where does it say extra-judicial killings are allowed in the absence of Congress declaring war?

Again, this is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Melania and Jared: They're Back
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    The peasants are revolting (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:02:08 PM EST

    A five-alarm fire': Federal judges are unloading grievances after Justice Gorsuch called out one of their own for defying SCOTUS

    "The Court is mindful of Justice Gorsuch's comments in his opinion in APHA and fully agrees that this Court is not free to 'defy' Supreme Court decisions and is, in fact, 'duty-bound to respect 'the hierarchy of the federal court system,'" Burroughs began. Consistent with these obligations, this Court (and likely all district courts) endeavors to follow the Supreme Court's rulings, 'no matter how misguided [it] may think [them] to be.'"



    Federal judges (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:30:25 PM EST
    have been one of the few lights in all this mess and the supreme court would do well to just let their decisions stand and not take up the cases. John Roberts is going to go down as one of the most feckless chief justice in the history of the court.

    Every day and case by case the supreme court is making a case for their own expansion.  

    Parent

    Rubio's statement is miles from anything (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    that could pass for a legal justification. The simple fact is that there is no justification whatsoever -- either legal or moral -- for what they did yesterday in destroying that boat and murdering the people on it.

    It is (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:22:15 PM EST
    curious that a speed boat running drugs would have a crew of eleven.  Rather than drug trafficking, could it have been migrant trafficking.  And, they can't even get their stories straight--- Little Marco said the speed boat was headed for Trinidad, but changed his story after Trump said it was coming to the U.S.  Even Alito will be hard pressed to come up with a legal basis for blowing up a speed boat in International waters that is suspected of running drugs to Trinidad.

    Parent
    That was my first thought. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:33:58 PM EST
    Why would drug smugglers put that much additional weight and take up that much more room with human bodies. The profit is in more weight vis-a-vis drugs.

    Parent
    I have (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:24:55 PM EST
    read that they lawyers are scrambling to figure out a justification AFTER the fact because of course no one did anything prior to this happening. And most agree with what you are saying.

    I guess we are just supposed to believe "dear leader" when he says it is Trende de Agua or whatever they call themselves with no evidence.

    Parent

    Apparently the rotting orange hulk... (none / 0) (#10)
    by desertswine on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 04:37:52 PM EST
    thinks he is now free to murder anyone on the planet.

    Parent
    It's a very short boat trip (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by fishcamp on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 05:02:40 PM EST
    From  Venezuela to Trinidad and Tobago and they smuggle hundreds of different items back and forth down there.  We used to buy diesel fuel for 30 cents a gallon in Venezuela  on our way through the canal to Costa Rica.  We met people smuggling perfume, soap, cigarettes, boat parts, and one guy had boxes of lingerie.  Sounds to me it was people smugglers or just people wanting to leave Venezuela .  They could have had some drugs, but that's not a location where they go with tons of cocaine like we usually read about, and they don't blow those people up either.

    It doesn't look like this has really anything (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by desertswine on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 11:34:50 AM EST
    to do with drugs.  It looks like trump may be trying to goad maduro into a shooting war; as a distraction, from his child abusing activities.

    Parent
    Maybe the Trump regime should just seize ... (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 03:33:30 PM EST
    ... Trinidad and Tobago, and then use those islands as a base of operations to pillage and plunder the port cities of the Caribbean basin. I mean, when was the last time Barranquilla or Maracaibo had a good pillaging and plundering? It's been far too long, by my reckoning. And from there, well, it's only a hop, skip and jump to Colon, Panama to seize the canal and raise the passage fees fivefold for foreign shipping.

    You know, I bet Donald Trump would look great wearing a tri-cornered hat and standing on the bow of a warship, perhaps with a parrot on his shoulder, as he sails into a hostile port, doing his best Long John Silver impersonation as he waves his broadsword and growls to the shocked inhabitants, "Arrgh, maties, and shiver me timbers! Strike yer colors, ya scurvy dogs! Where be the treasure?"

    Look, if America is determined to be a cartoon on the world stage - Department of War? Seriously? - then we might as well do it right and go whole hog. Then at the last minute, Britain could send in the Bournemouth Gynecologists to save the day, as Fox News' Jesse Watters regales the MAGA masses, "Are you not entertained?"

    I am a sick and cynical puppy right now. >:-D

    Parent

    Trump impregnates Satan (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 05:53:23 PM EST
    in the new episode of South Park.  Which is mostly about tariffs.  

    What a piece of sh!t this guy is (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 07:26:21 PM EST
    I listened to a clip of Hegseth in the (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 06:10:17 PM EST
    Oval at the signing. He is one sick f*ck.

    Parent
    You mean (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 06:29:57 PM EST
    The Secretary of War

    Parent
    I am serious. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:25:09 PM EST
    Listen to this guy's comments in the Oval Office. He belongs to a religious cult that believes women should not have the right to vote. Only the male head of household. He believes women should not be in the military, much less combat roles.

    He wants to kill people. Plain and simple. And I fear, he doesn't care where. The high seas, Mexico, or on US soil. All this warrior ethos BS is dangerous to all of us. He is itching for a fight. Anywhere.

    Americans need to wake up now. Before the cities are all occupied by the military. Arm up. Buy more ammo.

    Parent

    You don't have to convince me (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:42:34 PM EST
    Trumps "cabinet" is more like a cabinet of curiosities.  Take RFKjr, please.

    The head of education was the head of the WWF.

    The voters are getting what they wanted. A government that stops government from working at every level.

    It seems unsustainable to me.  But it has before.

    I agree Trump is going to do whatever it takes.  Including blood in the streets.

    Or war abroad. That seems more likely.  


    Parent

    This (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:43:46 PM EST
    Is the U.S. Preparing for War?
    September 6, 2025 at 1:03 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 207 Comments

    The Pentagon is deploying 10 F-35 stealth fighter jets to Puerto Rico for "counter-narcotics tasking in the Caribbean," Fox News reports.

    Jennifer Griffin: "Why would you need F35 stealth fighter jets for a counternarcotics mission? The F35s being sent to Puerto Rico are usually used for large bombing missions like the targeting of Iran's nuclear facilities- a 5th generation supersonic fighter jet known for its lethality. It looks to me like the US military is going to war. 8 US Navy destroyers in the Caribbean near Venezuela is a first."

    Parent

    You know (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:46:09 PM EST
    The whole Department of War thing.

    Trump and Hegseth might get new Generalissimo outfits

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 07:04:09 PM EST
    And this

    Pentagon Prioritizes Homeland Over China Threat
    September 6, 2025 at 4:00 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 187 Comments

    Politico: "Pentagon officials are proposing the department prioritize protecting the homeland and Western Hemisphere, a striking reversal from the military's yearslong mandate to focus on the threat from China."

    "A draft of the newest National Defense Strategy, which landed on Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's desk last week, places domestic and regional missions above countering adversaries such as Beijing and Moscow."

    Parent

    Current regime: (none / 0) (#39)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 09:05:05 PM EST
    We have met the enemy and he is us.

    My apologies to Pogo.

    Parent

    It's hurricane season in Hawaii. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 09:49:44 PM EST
    And first up at the plate is Hurricane Kiko, now a Category 4 storm that's about 4 days away. After Hurricane Lane in 2018, when Hilo avoided the winds but got swamped with 53 inches of rain, I've noticed that everyone tends to take these things much more seriously now.

    No! Not Los Lobos! (none / 0) (#7)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:35:14 PM EST
    I love those guys. I listen to "Will the Wolf Survive" all the time.

    /s


    218 (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    Politico reporter Ben Jacobs agreed, adding, "Worth noting the number will grow by another in the next week or two, regardless of what Republicans do after the VA-11 special election where Democrat James Walkinshaw is expected to win easily on Tuesday."

    Journalist Gabe Fleisher explained that Swalwell also intends to sign onto the order, but he has been with his family after his mother passed away. His support will make 216 votes, and after the Virginia election, it will equal 217. Another Democrat is expected to win in the Arizona special election on Sept 23 will equal 218 votes in support

    Matter of policy choice (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 04:24:43 PM EST

    Trump Claims Power to Kill Suspected Drug Smugglers
    September 4, 2025 at 3:37 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 87 Comments

    "By ordering the U.S. military to summarily kill a group of people aboard what he said was a drug-smuggling boat, President Trump used the military in a way that had no clear legal precedent or basis," the New York Times reports.

    "Mr. Trump is claiming the power to shift maritime counterdrug efforts from law enforcement rules to wartime rules. The police arrest criminal suspects for prosecution and cannot instead simply gun suspects down, except in rare circumstances where they pose an imminent threat to someone."

    "By contrast, in armed conflicts, troops can lawfully kill enemy combatants on sight."

    "Because killing people is so extreme -- and doing it without due process risks killing the wrong people by mistake -- the question of which rules apply is not simply a matter of policy choice."



    Murder on the high seas is a federal crime (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 09:50:31 PM EST
    carrying a potential sentence of life imprisonment or death, and for which there is no statute of limitations on when charges can be brought. Title 18, U.S. Code, sections 7, 1111, 3281. It can be prosecuted where any act was committed that caused the intentional death, regardless of where the death occurred, and if that cannot be ascertained then wherever the perpetrator is arrested, or in the District of Columbia. Sec. 3236, 3238. Unless the murderer has immunity, of course.

    Parent
    In other words, if I were Hegspeth (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Peter G on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 01:05:01 PM EST
    I'd be looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life. Same for anyone else involving in the planning, approval or execution of that horrific operation.

    Parent
    Yes, (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by KeysDan on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 02:20:54 PM EST
    it seems unlikely that Trump will ever be held accountable for his crimes in light of Trump v USA, so it will be important that his henchmen, such as Kennedy, Hegseth, Miller, and Vought come to realize the time may come when they may need to flee their hotels through the kitchen to avoid capture and imprisonment for their criminal collaboration.

    They may be high on their own supply at present, but I am buoyed by the prospect of things catching up with them--and this includes the U.S. Navy captain who may have followed unlawful orders in targeting that speedboat.

    Parent

    If I were (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Sep 04, 2025 at 05:48:48 PM EST
    in the military this would make me think twice about obeying any orders. Trump obviously doesn't care about the law and that puts the soldiers at risk.

    This could have another effect of making our foreign relations even worse.

    Parent

    This is Dr Evil stuff (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 04:24:22 PM EST

    Even the NRA disagrees with Trump on this one

    A novel approach to gun violence.


    So now thd GQP is FOR (none / 0) (#19)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 05:43:10 PM EST
    gun control?

    Parent
    Like they are into (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Sep 05, 2025 at 06:31:22 PM EST

    States Rights

    Parent
    The Chicago Sun Times (none / 0) (#26)
    by KeysDan on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 02:56:49 PM EST
    is reporting on Trump's Truth Social post that said Chicago is about to find out "why it's called the Department of War". The post uses references to the 1979 war movie "Apocalypse Now", along with representations of Trump dressed up in a Civil War army uniform and helicopters flying across the Chicago skyline, with the words,  "Chicoalypse Now".

    Governor Pritzker said the President of the United States is threatening to go to war against an American City. Two days ago, the City of Chicago cancelled its El Grito celebration--festivals, picnics and parades marking Mexico Independence--in fear of ICE raids and disruptions.

    He dressed as Colonel Kilgore (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 03:34:06 PM EST
    It also said (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 03:34:59 PM EST
    I love the smell of deportations in the morning.

    Parent
    Guess, (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by KeysDan on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 04:09:08 PM EST
    Better than the line from the movie:  "I love the smell of napalm in the morning".

    Parent
    A scared man (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 04:28:57 PM EST
    Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker (D) was not amused and responded on Bluesky, "The President of the United States is threatening to go to war with an American city. This is not a joke. This is not normal. Donald Trump isn't a strongman, he's a scared man. Illinois won't be intimidated by a wannabe dictator."

    Parent
    It had the desired effect (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:01:07 PM EST
    This just looks (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    desperate to me,

    Parent
    See my post #33. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 05:26:46 PM EST
    They will push until there are dead laying in American streets.

    Parent
    4 Dead in Ohio (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 09:14:41 PM EST
    Shades of Kent State.
    Neil Young just published an anti-Trump song -- it's called Big Crime (in the White House) (You Tube link). He lives in Canada.

    Parent
    FINALLY, a millennial Saint! (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Sep 06, 2025 at 09:15:18 PM EST