Labor Day Open Thread

Happy Labor Day. (Version with Axl Rose here.)

Lets drink to the hard working people
Lets drink to the lowly of birth
Raise your glass to the good and the evil
Lets drink to the salt of the earth


I just noticed that at the very end of the song, Mick tells the audience (the firefighters and police who responded to 9/11):

If there's one thing we learned from this whole experience, it's that "You don't f*ck with New York."

They all cheer loudly (I remember watching the concert live on TV, but they must have bleeped that out.)

This is a photo I took of the Monument to Labor sculpture in Omaha, Nebraska, by Matthew Placzek. (full version here.) It's a tribute to the workers in the labor unions that helped build Omaha and is the second largest labor memorial in the country.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Time for the U.S.A to obtain a divorce... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Dadler on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 09:39:58 AM EST
    ...from most of the world. If we can manage it, our best hope is to work almost soley with North, Central and South America (granted we'd need to ask forgiveness from Central). If we focused, with the intense imaginative abilities we possess but ignore almost every day politically, we could offer the world an example. We could live up to our supposed creed.

    But I have no doubt we'll take a big sh*t on imagination and intelligence and freedom yet again by marching headlong into disaster.

    Our stupidity, sadly, seems much more powerful than our smarts.


    asking forgiveness from (none / 0) (#2)
    by Dadler on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 10:11:26 AM EST
    who am i kidding, we'd need to be humble about our unpleasant history with all those regions south of our nation.

    Happy Labor Day all! (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:36:41 PM EST

    100 yrs ago today... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by desertswine on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:53:04 PM EST
    Jagger and Labor Day. (none / 0) (#3)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 10:27:31 AM EST
    In reading Mick Jagger's statement,

    Mick tells the audience (the firefighters and police who responded to 9/11):

    If there's one thing we learned from this whole experience, it's that "You don't f*ck with New York."

    I remember well that fateful day quite differently.

    I remember that Major Giuliani had presided over a fire department that had such faulty equipment that they couldn't even communicate with each other. Deaths of firefighters resulted.

    And as I recall, he topped that off by opposing pay increases for them.

    And he, Giuliani, had the gaul to strut around and make political hay from that disaster.

    I, having lived within a mile of that disaster, remember that there were no traffic lights, no cell phones, no police on the streets, and a foul odor that lasted for months.

    I also remember Bush's Secretary of the Environment telling everybody that it was safe to live in the polluted area, when, in fact, it was toxic.

    So, no, Mick. Everybody fked with the the people of New York. And they continue to do so.

    About Labor Unions:

    I joined the musician's Union, local 802 in New York, at a time when if a musician did not get paid, the other Unions joined in to protect them and put pressure on the club or other establishment. No food. No laundry service - until the musicians got paid.

    Union contracts were imperative - obligatory - for just about every venue in town.

    The Union also had a good health plan.
    Forget about that.

    Now, contracts are seldom offered or even required.
    The only venues the Union cares about are huge establishments like the Met or other venues in the Lincoln Center complex.
    Musicians are on their own.

    A few years ago, the union picketed the Blue Note. Management told the picketers to go fk themselves. Literally.

    The decline began, imo, with the presidency of Saint Ronnie, the "transformational" president.
    First he attacked and destroyed the Union PATCO. And he did it with the cynical veneer that it had something to do with national security.

    And the shame of it was that no other Unions came to the rescue. Not the Teamsters. Not the caterers or baggage handlers. Nobody.

    And, once a symbol of the left, Unions have become increasingly conservative imo.

    So, I celebrate Labor day with a sigh and a heavy heart. When I think of the Labor movement, I think of what they were and what they accomplished many decades ago. If I think about what they have become, it is depressing.

    I don't know who these people are... (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 10:37:37 AM EST
    and I've never heard of the "Freedom Foundation," but they sound like some very sick and deluded people.

    No Police? (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 10:46:18 AM EST
    I, having lived within a mile of that disaster, remember that there were no traffic lights, no cell phones, no police on the streets, and a foul odor that lasted for months.

    Not my experience, and I am about 1.5 miles away. Cops were all over the place blocking access. The amount of overtime stacked up during those 6 months was astronomical. And the cops that retired that year was a record, as pension is determined by the last year salary, including overtime.

    Sounds like you have a depressing life.. sorry to hear that.

    At least you have music, or if not that would be something to embrace.


    My view was from (none / 0) (#17)
    by NYShooter on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:02:59 PM EST
    right over the Tri-Boro Bridge in Astoria, Queens.

    When the Towers went down, I remember saying to my co-workers, "my God, we just watched 50,000 people die." It was astonishing, and, a great credit to all the first responders, that the actual number was far, far less.

    And, you're right, the place was wall-to-wall cops.

    I think Lentinel was talking about some of the criticism levelled at the City Leadership after the fact. The police and firefighters were not equipped with the latest and best gear. And, some of the decisions made by Rudy were, in retrospect, if not downright dumb, at least dubious.


    There were (none / 0) (#18)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:09:45 PM EST
    absolutely no police in the area above Canal Street where I was living.

    Citizens were directing traffic - because there were no traffic lights and no police officers.

    After awhile - there were police stationed, as I recall, above 14th Street - cordoning off the area below.

    But in the hours following the disaster, we were on our own.

    And, those of us who lived there didn't need until after the fact to realize that Giuliani was using this to promote his image and his career. He was a phony and we all knew it.


    Well, I don't know what to tell you (none / 0) (#22)
    by NYShooter on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:21:20 PM EST
    There were only a finite number of cops available, and, they had to be utilized where their management thought was most critical. People were dying in the Trade Center vicinity; I don't know how many died above Canal St.

    You have some valid criticism about Giuliani, but, second guessing the police is, I think, beyond your (and mine) pay grade.


    Second Guessing the Police (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:25:17 PM EST
    The police at and below Canal st were acting like morons, imo.

    There were dying people, everyone was dead.

    The stations were set up for Emergency care and there were no takers, just a lot of doctors and health workers waiting...

    From my POV, the biggest action by the police was getting fat off the tragedy.


    Correction: There Were NO Dying People (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:28:04 PM EST
    Everyone was dead. The firemen were the first to dig through the ashes and rubble, as they lost many colleagues. Guilliani's army (NYPD) put a stop to that mighty quick as the Police were the ones slated for triple and quadruple overtime..  

    The firemen were pissed.


    Blame the commanders, but, (none / 0) (#25)
    by NYShooter on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:34:44 PM EST
    60 cops died that day, 37 from the Port Authority & NJ Police Dept. and, 23 from the NYPD.

    I doubt any of them will be getting fat any more.


    Yes (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:53:03 PM EST
    The dead ones were not getting fat, just the live ones.

    My beef (none / 0) (#29)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:04:51 PM EST
    was not with the police!

    It is with the statement that Jagger saying that what we learn from the experience of 9/11 is that, "You don't f*ck with New York."

    Of course there are only a finite number of police.
    And none on the beat any more - just some passing by in patrol cars now and then.

    So, my point is, that New York can be, and was, very very f*cked with.

    It was a sorry mess.
    People were killed.

    And this doesn't even get to the part where we were dealing with an anthrax scare shortly thereafter - and attendants were wearing rubber gloves behind the windows at the post office.

    Indeed, if you think about it, the entire United States was very f*cked with. We lost our freedoms. Our Constitution was shredded. Our right to privacy has been severely, and probably permanently, compromised.

    So - I was responding to the rosy b.s. scenario laid out by Mick J.

    Every time there's a disaster in New York City, some schmo gets up on TV and tells us how resilient we are.

    All I can say is what I experienced.
    We were alone to fend for ourselves.

    Not casting blame on the police.

    Just confronting a spin laid before us by a wealthy entertainer.


    Alone? (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:29:40 PM EST
    In my neighborhood were were not alone. Neighbors bonded together, checking on each other, restaurants opened up their kitchens to emergency workers and locals for free. A lot of talking to neighbors on the street..  It was unusual for so many to let go of the NYC anonymity schtick.

    Quite a magical time. For many of us the scariest part was the constant police presence and worst part was Giuliani taking credit for everything good and nothing bad..  He even tried to cancel elections and stay Mayor because NYC needed him so much. NYers put a quash on that move in no time flat.

    The neighborhood I live in recovered quickly, imo. And NYC at large seems to be thriving.

    So I do agree with Mick.

    Sorry your experience was and is


    What was/is your involvement (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 11:47:54 AM EST
    in music?

    I have always (none / 0) (#19)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:14:47 PM EST
    been involved in music.

    I gained a masters degree from Brandeis University in Musical Composition - but my main love is Jazz.

    I was thinking about you, Oculus, because I saw this clip of a young person singing on a French version of "The Voice" for "kids".

    I thought you would like it.



    I should mention (none / 0) (#20)
    by lentinel on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:18:29 PM EST
    that you have to wait through about 2 minutes of commercials before the video comes on - but it's worth it imo.

    I See (none / 0) (#21)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:19:40 PM EST
    All the cops were on Canal Street and below.. I did not make it above Canal street for a month or so.

    Tangent: I would recommend (none / 0) (#14)
    by magster on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:22:05 PM EST
    the book Beatles vs. Stones, which chronicled each bands trajectory and relationship. And the book intro is an anecdote about Mick playing Beggars Banquet at an trendy nightclub, only to be upstaged when Paul walked into the same nightclub that night and played an advance copy of the Hey Jude/Revolution single.... The intro is available on the Amazon preview.

    Anyways, with this song in the story being on Beggar's Banquest, thought I'd link.


    Besides (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 01:54:44 PM EST
    Rather than feel scared, you should have felt lucky, IMO,  that there were no police where you lived.

    I don't think it's up to you to tell (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Anne on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:45:04 PM EST
    anyone how they "should have" felt, on that day or the days after.  No one's dismissing your experience, so maybe you should not be quite so dismissive of or judgmental about what others experienced.

    Aren't you kinda sorta doing the (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:11:50 PM EST
    same thing?

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Anne on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:21:18 PM EST
    But not surprised that you'd think so.

    Do you think it's appropriate to tell someone how he or she should or should not feel?  What their experience means?

    I don't either, and that's all I was saying.

    Pretty sure you knew that, but it seems to be your nature to stir the sh!t whenever possible. Strange hobby.


    That wasn't "all you were saying," (2.00 / 1) (#44)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:25:00 PM EST

    Typical Anne (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:17:42 PM EST
    She gives herself special dispensation, for reasons that elude me.

    Here's good news for teachers' union: (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 10:31:22 AM EST
    Think Progress has a long piece... (none / 0) (#8)
    by magster on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 11:33:35 AM EST
    up about one of our industrial forefathers and President Cleveland sparking a depression. It was a very interesting read about a forgotten era (at least by me in high school US History class) between reconstruction and WWI.

    no personal insults to (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 11:59:38 AM EST
    other commenters please, they will be deleted if I see them.

    There is no freedom for labor (none / 0) (#12)
    by alamgir hossain on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:01:27 PM EST
    All over the world just happening that there is no right for lower one . i am talking about labor, they have no freedom.. Actually I am a resume writers Reviews personal. But I feel excited to looking all this things here. thanks admin.

    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#16)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:52:06 PM EST
    Well, after an entire month in (none / 0) (#13)
    by Anne on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:01:41 PM EST
    which it only got to 90 degrees once - yesterday - it is ungodly hot and humid today. Maybe we're just not acclimated to it after the unseasonably cool summer here in Maryland.

    Taking the week off this week; surprise baby shower for younger daughter is next Saturday and I'm doing the food for 30 guests. Will do much of that Thursday and Friday, so a couple days for just hanging out. Got the new Nook Glowlight for my birthday on Thursday, so plan to spend some time reading. Nothing better than losing your self in a good book - well, almost nothing!

    Have spent lots of time with my grandson this last week; such a joy - even the mundane is fun again through the eyes of a 21-month old!

    Have some fun- find some joy; it's good for you!

    Article/interview with Iraqi soldier. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Green26 on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 12:29:58 PM EST
    This is an interesting article. Has some nitty gritty information about ISIS and the Iraqi army. This soldier is a Kurd in the Iraqi army.

    From an site/publication called Foreign Intrigue, which I've never heard of. My former Ranger son sent me the link.

    Hey Slado, (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:34:20 PM EST
    You out there?

    The Strain is a show about gross vampires, not zombies, but it has never felt more like that other straight-up TV horror series The Walking Dead than it does this week, in what is mostly one big siege at a gas station, our main characters surrounded by disgusting monsters.

    Calling all fanboys

    It's not as much fun without spouse home (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:39:37 PM EST
    Still recording it though.  Watching Masters of Sex, the first season seemed boring but this season certainly woke me up.

    Love Betsy Brandt (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:44:27 PM EST
    Ray Donavon was also great this week.  Even if it was 15 mins short for a Homeland promo.

    Raise you hand if you thought digging that thing out if his face would save Jim.

    I love that they didn't drag it out.  And I love Vasiliy.


    I watched Ray Donavon too (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:17:24 PM EST
    What a train wreck :)

    It's been great all season (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:25:49 PM EST
    Loved last weeks family gathering and the "walk this way" ending.

    Sherman (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:39:40 PM EST
    Set the Way Back machine for 1968 --

    Boy Sent Home From School Because His Hair Was 'Too Long'

    Oh... his hair was too long (none / 0) (#34)
    by desertswine on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:43:45 PM EST
    AND he is a Native American kid.

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:45:52 PM EST
    On it's face it's stupid. Add that and it's borderline criminal.  If not literally so.

    Labor pains (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 02:50:10 PM EST
    Interesting interview: (none / 0) (#46)
    by oculus on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 03:54:41 PM EST

    And who today are the best writers on American politics?

    There are two, and they both are bloggers. One, Corey Robin of Brooklyn College, is also a political theorist; his book "The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism From Edmund Burke to Sarah Palin" provides the most convincing account about what right-wing habits of mind are ultimately all about. His humane and erudite blog -- and its spirited commenters -- deepen that conversation. A favorite theme is the emptiness of right-wing notions of "freedom" that actually leave us less free. See, for instance, his work on "Lavatory and Liberty," which points out that the government doesn't even enforce the right to bathroom breaks at work. What could be a greater insult to liberty than that?

    My other favorite political writer, Heather Parton, blogs under the name "Digby." Daily for over 10 years she's been unleashing a fire hose of brilliance on the fecklessness of the Democrats, the craziness of the Republicans and especially the way that what we now call the "culture wars" has been seared into our national DNA at least since the Civil War. In the acknowledgments to "Nixonland," I called her the other half of my brain.

    Rick Perlstein NYT