Friday Open Thread

It's a beautiful day here, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Samsung CEO Jailed in South Korea Corruption Probe
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Michael Slager's lawyers seek to have his federal (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:47:36 PM EST
    charges dropped
    Mr Slager's lawyers argued that the federal civil rights case would overlap with a state murder trial stemming from the same incident and it would be "crushingly, unfair" and "highly prejudicial" to force him to defend against both charges at the same time.

    The administration of President Donald Trump indicated last month that it might consider dropping the federal charges against Mr Slager.

    Slager shot and killed Walter Scott in 2015.  His first criminal trial ended in a hung jury which shocked many people.  I don't believe he should have been charged with murder and I don't believe Federal charges should have been filed.

    Are you trying to provoke a response? (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:30:44 PM EST
    You state without explanation that the cop that shot Walter Scoot five times in the back as Scott, who was clearly unarmed, ran away, is not guilty.

    But, you know, Armando is looking more and more right to me.  The support of Trump is not about economic anxiety.  It is about "culture."  And bashing People of Color and praising people who shoot them in the back certainly fits the bill.


    As I said, I didn't think Slager (none / 0) (#50)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:17:29 PM EST
    should have been charged with murder.  I also understand why he wasn't found guilty of manslaughter.  

    This case wasn't about race, it was about time. How much time does it take for an officer to realize someone is no longer a significant threat.  When Slager made his decision to draw his weapon, it was reasonable to assume Scott might be a significant threat.  By the time it took him to pull the trigger things changes.... Scott was several feet away.  

    The jury had the same question about time as I did and couldn't come to a unanimous verdict on manslaughter.  


    One shot, maybe (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:27:53 PM EST
    But five?  And at a long distance....

    It is amazing how some whites never see race as an issue.  I guess Black Live Don't Matter is a good rule of thumb.


    The jury foreman was black (none / 0) (#64)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:10:42 PM EST
    and he found reasonable doubt in the case.  Was that "amazing"?  

    The number of bullets fired usually isn't a big factor unless the shots occurred with a significant amount of time between them. Cops are trained to aim for center mass and shot until the threat is contained.  They don't intentially shoot people in the leg or fire warning shots.  Sometimes it takes more than 10 bullets to bring someone down.  


    Bring someone down.. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:32:29 PM EST
    interesting choice of words..

    People "bring down" beasts, not human beings.

    Unless you have a very limited vocabulary the way many cops do, and are afraid to use the word "kill".


    The Doll Test (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:16:58 PM EST
    Little kids were shown dolls.  The dolls were all the same except half were white and half were brown or African American.

    Kids were asked how they perceived the dolls.  The while dolls were described as pretty or nice; the African American dolls as ugly, etc.  And heartbreakingly  even African American girls preferred the white dolls and described the African American dolls as ugly.

    This was part of the evidence leading to Brown v. Board of Education.   But Anderson Cooper reprised in 2010 with similar results.

    So, McBain, this is the substantive reason why just because the foreperson was Black does not mean racism was not in play.

    Take racism seriously.  It does exists. It is more pervasive than many think.


    If you really want to get depressed about (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:43:07 PM EST
    how ingrained and pervasive racism is in our psyches, do a bit of research into "implicit bias" and read about some of those studies.

    Thank you MKS, for making a quality (none / 0) (#162)
    by McBain on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 10:54:00 AM EST
    argument without resorting to personal attacks or name calling. I remember that doll test/study. Good point but I still don't believe race was a factor in the Slager verdict.  

    To be clear, my opinion is the jury was correct not to convict on murder.  I'm not sure about manslaughter but since the prosecution didn't mention that charge during their case, I understand why they couldn't reach a unanimous decision.

    As for interesting studies involving children...
    I saw a special on TV years ago where two female teachers read a story to young kids (maybe 7-8 years old).  One teacher was very attractive but wasn't great a reading to the class... monotone, not much personality.  The other was average looking but much better at telling the story.  

    When asked who the better teacher was, almost all the kids chose the pretty one.  Kinda sad.


    "Bring someone down.." (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:36:41 PM EST
    interesting choice of words..

    People "bring down" beasts, not human beings.

    Unless you have a very limited vocabulary the way many cops do, and are afraid to use the word "kill".


    Ah, the defense (none / 0) (#142)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:30:24 PM EST
    of a black person agrees with us.  Standard Conservative Defense Tactic.  Explains Justice Thomas.

    No, because the Foreperson was Black does not resolve the issue of racism as a cause of the shooting.


    Sean Hannity does (none / 0) (#143)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:32:27 PM EST
    this all the time:  Just find an African American to criticize liberals or whoever, and, presto! no charge of racism can be made.   Such as the wacko police chief from Wisconsin.

    An AA student body president (none / 0) (#144)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:49:51 PM EST
    from one of the local colleges told me he was approached by someone from one the right wing foundations who told him he could have a job for life if he ever wanted to became a black conservative.

    The sad thing (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:53:19 PM EST
    about this is that for conservatives it is all a game about presentation.   Who cares about the merits?

    now im confused (none / 0) (#56)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:30:37 PM EST
    he was murder and manslaughter and the the jury hung on both?

    I believe the jury all voted against murder (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:05:34 PM EST
    but couldn't reach a decision on manslaughter but I'm not sure.  The reporting on this case was awful.  The media ran with a false rumor that there was one juror  holding up a guilty verdict.

    i didnt read that (none / 0) (#52)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:22:45 PM EST
    i read, "should (not) have been charged with murder" and the jury must have agreed as they were hung and a re-trial is scheduled. unless an actual criminal lawyer corrects me, im under the impression that manslaghter would have been the appropriate charge.

    Please explain (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:41:24 PM EST
    I don't believe he should have been charged with murder

    Shooting a fleeing, unarmed man who poses no threat in the back, and then lying about the reason is not murder?  Spraying gunfire in a crowded neighborhood for no reason?

    But I'll bet you think muggers should be prosecuted.

    I'm sure you are a very nice guy in meatspace, and your posts here are the only really mean, callous and hateful statements you ever make.


    after reading the wiki entry (none / 0) (#23)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:55:15 PM EST
    i agree that federal charges should not have been filed and that (i think) "manslaughter" would be more appropriate than a murder charge.

    Deliberately shooting an unarmed man ... (5.00 / 5) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:24:27 PM EST
    ... in the back as he clearly attempts to flee (for whatever reason) is an act of murder, not manslaughter. That said, manslaughter would be acceptable if that's the only way to secure some semblance of justice here.

    The deceased in this instance did not pose a threat to anyone. He panicked and ran off when pulled over because he had not kept up with child support payments, which is hardly a life-threatening circumstance. He had abandoned his car at the scene, and surely the officer could've shown some patience and had the vehicle impounded. Eventually, having nowhere to go, the deceased would have likely given himself up.

    There was no reason to have chased him down and shot him like a mad dog.


    two men (none / 0) (#48)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:07:00 PM EST
    brawling in a bar. one man knocks the other down and goes to leave the bar. the other man in a rage gets up off the floor, grabs a beer-bottle and rushes after, and smashes the beer-bottle over the other man's head killing him.

    isnt that manslaughter?
    one continous event and a man confused and enraged.


    You don't know what kind of threat he was (none / 0) (#51)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:21:07 PM EST
    because there wasn't any video of the struggle.  There was some of Scott's DNA on Slager's taser which corroborated Slager's story of Scott trying to take the taser.

    Eventually, having nowhere to go, the deceased would have likely given himself up.

    Slager didn't know if Scott was armed at that point and didn't know what his intentions were.  Chasing after Scott was the right thing to do.  


    I'm not going to comment on this anymore. (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:51:04 AM EST
    You have a history here of celebrating encounters between police (and police wannabes) and African Americans where the latter get the worst of it, and it's very distasteful. Further, I think you do it deliberately to race-bait people.

    Yes, that is the point (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:13:13 AM EST
    To stick it to the "elites" is the way it is thought of.

    But "sticking" it to the elites has a funny way of always siding against People of Color.


    So "not" knowing what the (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:25:07 AM EST
    threat is, allows for the death penalty?? No officer should use deadly force until he has assessed the threat and determined that there is one. You are a real piece of work.

    So many interpretations (none / 0) (#55)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:29:50 PM EST
    Slager didn't know if Scott was armed at that point and didn't know what his intentions were.

    If a guy is running away from you and has not shown a weapon, most people would infer that he was unarmed and that his "intention" was to GET AWAY.

    But you don't believe the officer could figure that out.  You are suggesting a level of stupidity for the police officer that would not qualify him for car washing, much less carrying a weapon.

    We don't have any EVIDENCE that he is as stupid as you suggest.   I do not believe he is as stupid as you do.  I think there must be another reason.  He may in fact have been a racist a$$hole who just wanted to kill a Black man.   That explanation ALSO fits the known facts.


    Is English your second language, McBain? (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:48:01 PM EST
    none of the definitions of the word "chase" includes standing still and shooting a man multiple times in the back as he's running away.

    I understand Jondee (none / 0) (#69)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:42:16 PM EST
    You saw the one video of Scott being shot and made up your  mind right away.  You're not alone.  However, there was more evidence including another video of the actual traffic stop.  If you saw that, it was clear Slager "chased" after Scott at some point.  

    There was also evidence of Scott's DNA on Slager's weapon.  That suggests a struggle which makes Scott a serious threat.  They jury looked at all the evidence and couldn't reach a unanimous decision on at least one of the counts.  Had the prosecution focused on manslaughter the outcome might have been different.

    I agree with Linea's post about there being too many over-zealous prosecutions.  The granddaddy being the George Zimmerman case.  


    I understand McBain (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:43:56 AM EST
    You saw the video of Scott being shot and feel that enables you to read the minds of how others arrived at their conclusions.

    It doesn't.

    You saw the badge on Slager and looked at the two men and made up your mind right away.

    Heeeeeeeyyyy!  That IS easy!


    im changing my opinion!! (none / 0) (#60)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:00:19 PM EST
    i now feel

    this is yet another case where the over-zealous public prosecutor charged and argued for a murder conviction rather than presenting a case for conviction on a manslaghter charge. in my years here, i have noticed that over-charging always seems to be a strategic error.  in my opinion.


    Or intentionally overcharging (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:04:17 PM EST
    in order to insure no conviction.

    We're talking about South Carolina here, after all.


    Overcharging is usually (none / 0) (#76)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:22:23 AM EST
    Done to satisfy the public appetite,

    Not done according to the merits of the case


    Specious claim about imaginary ... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:45:35 AM EST
    ... motivations are usually done because of a complete lack of evidence to support a smear.

    Not done according to any facts or evidence.


    Lol (2.00 / 1) (#80)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:55:13 AM EST
    Find a recent case where there was overcharging, that did not have high profile media "outrage" !!!

    That is what drives the charge, not the evidence.

    Prosecutors pride themselves on their conviction rate, they are trained to rein in emotions when prosecuting a case,
    In the cases of overcharging in highly publicized cases, they throw that out the window for political purposes. And convictions are  lost.


    Sorry ... not up to me ... (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:08:49 AM EST
    ... to disprove your specious claims.  But your new ones are pretty funny.  I love when you state your tinfoil theories as facts.  Do you actually believe that's convincing?

    Precisely because too many prosecutors (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 11:30:48 AM EST
    pride themselves on their conviction rate, overcharging is routine, including in low-profile cases. Remember, the vast majority of criminal cases are resolved by guilty pleas, not by trials. It is not considered unethical for a prosecutor to charge the most serious offense that a jury might conceivably find on any reasonable view of the facts, along with any lesser offenses. The prosecutor is not expected to charge only the offense that in her/his opinion best captures what the prosecutor thinks "really" happened, that reflects the most reasonable view of disputed facts, or that would produce what the prosecutor thinks would be the most reasonable sentence. As a result, many people are pressured to plead guilty to a lesser offense and abandon a legitimate defense, in order to avoid an unacceptable risk of conviction on an even worse, greater offense, often carrying a truly unjust and more severe sentence. (This is especially so when the greater offense would trigger a mandatory or mandatory-minimum sentence.) Thus producing the 90%+ conviction-by-plea rate.

    Oh .... my .... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:51:50 PM EST
    ... gawd.

    The wiki entry.


    because (3.00 / 2) (#46)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:59:42 PM EST
    the TL'er echo-chamber is good enough?

    Because that's a sad way ... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:46:42 AM EST
    ... to reach a conclusion.

    i do research (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:19:25 PM EST
    and often that includes wiki. i do more research than you and im open to other perspectives and opinions; you are not.

    not doing any research and simply parroting others is a sad way to reach a conclusion.


    "Often" - heh (none / 0) (#119)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:59:35 PM EST
    No doubt.

    BTW - I'm open to rational perspectives and opinions based on facts, logic and evidence.  My opinions are based on the same, not just a Wikipedia entry and my "feelings" - or whether I feel someone I "posh".

    not doing any research and simply parroting others is a sad way to reach a conclusion.

    Agreed, but you can stop doing it anytime you wish.


    someone posted (none / 0) (#130)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:34:53 PM EST
    on the Slager - Scott shooting.
    i read the wiki entry before posting.

    i dont understand this extended belittling and negative disparegment of me.

    you are free to drop the pretense and simply post "i hate you" after each of my comments.


    I am free to ... (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:51:04 PM EST
    ... speak my mind.  You are free to stop mischaracterizing/misstating what I am saying.

    You can't reason with a hater (1.00 / 1) (#133)
    by McBain on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:13:55 PM EST
    They're going to stalk you no matter what.  I stopped replying to a few in here a while ago but they keep embarrassing themselves.  They will try to shout down your comments because of the fear others will agree with you.

    Funny stuff (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:17:12 PM EST
    The psychological term is "projection".

    I have never witnessed more projection (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:51:20 PM EST
    in the psychiatric sense, than in Tr*mp's attacks and criticisms of various perceived enemies. He constantly accuses others of all sorts f reprehensible behavior that is exactly what he, himself is doing.

    Wow, really? (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:08:43 PM EST
    They will try to shout down your comments because of the fear others will agree with you.

    I have been here for years and I have never seen that practice.  Do you have names and examples so I can identify what constitutes "shout[ing] down" in your opinion?


    "Shouting down" means (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:25:10 PM EST

    You see, Trumpists want to be able to use all kinds of racial stereotypes, bigoted expressions and make fun of others in a bullying way--what they call being "politically incorrect."  And they want to engage in this behavior without anyone calling them on it.

    It is the biting criticism that they cannot stand.  And, reciting the mantra about "political correctness" is designed to ward off criticism of their childish and boorish behavior.  



    "Hater" was the (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:18:34 PM EST
    term conservatives used to dismiss criticism of Bush.  An arrogant way to avoid actually responding to the merits.

    McBain, you have certainly succeeded today in trolling this thread.  First, saying you would not convict the cop who shot Scott in the back, and then extolling the comedy of a very ugly person.  You take advantage of the posting rules here to throw out ugly chum.

    I find your love of political incorrectness to just be love of the ability to toss off bigotry at will.  

    Perhaps better not to bite, but your drive-bys at times need responses.   Not responding can be acquiescence in some pretty ugly stuff you peddle.


    Comey briefs SSCI (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by smott on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 11:41:41 AM EST
    So late on a getaway Friday before recess, this happened -

    Which per some reporter's tweets had Senators tight-lipped and even "ashen" afterwards. Would not even confirm that Comey had been there tho he was plainly seen leaving.

    Some interesting Tweets

    Here's hoping it was something big, and gets us real independent public hearings.

    I'm starting to believe notions re there being Russian moles in the FBI NY field office. These would be the guys who misled the NYT and leaked to Rudy.  But trying hard not to get on that scary slope. Oy. Louise Mensch had a long article about it.

    no big deal (none / 0) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    Probably just dropping off a couple of bags of nothing-burgers.

    "Politically incorrect" (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:04:56 PM EST
    means being repulsively bigoted and anti-social.

    Permission to indulge in one's inner bigotry....

    Serious debate ensues (none / 0) (#113)
    by vicndabx on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:21:18 PM EST
    Runaway from truth (none / 0) (#127)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:18:10 PM EST
    Deluging today, since before sunrise. (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 04:07:11 PM EST
    Forecast was for much lighter rain. Oroville Dam seems to be holding up fine.

    Glad to hear (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 04:48:34 PM EST
    about the dam.

    of rain in the dam watershed Sunday/Monday, so keep your fingers X'd. Today's storm is mostly south of the watershed.

    ... (1977-78), in which SoCal got belted relentlessly with big storm upon big storm all winter long, after we had endured five years of pretty severe drought conditions. From Thanksgiving to Easter, it just seemed to rain constantly.

    In February of that year, we were going to drive up to my aunt's and uncle's place in Oakland over the long President's Day weekend, but I-5 at the Grapevine was snowed in and closed so we flew instead. We were at Burbank Airport ready to board our PSA flight to OAK and it was pouring rain, but since BUR didn't have jetways (and still doesn't), we had to board by walking across the tarmac and using the airstairs. The gate agents would walk passengers out to the plane a few at a time, carrying big umbrellas to shield them as best they could. It took forever to get everybody aboard. Then we got to Oakland and the weather was gorgeous. Go figure.

    The Los Angeles Times just posted some truly awesome footage of a massive landslide occurring in the Forest Falls area of the San Bernardino Mountains.

    It's a good day for SoCalers to curl up with a good book.


    Crazy that someone was filming it, I guess (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 06:09:26 PM EST
    it was pretty obvious that it was going to go.

    Insane winds today in addition to the rain.


    Speaking of Burbank Airport, ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 04:26:57 AM EST
    ... it stormed so hard in the San Fernando Valley today that all arriving and departing flights at BUR were cancelled through late Saturday afternoon. I don't remember that happening before, for anything other than fog.

    This is the big one (none / 0) (#13)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:24:46 PM EST
    Big wind too.

    Rain coming now.


    Hey Jim.. (none / 0) (#3)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 05:33:39 PM EST
    Jane will never be hanged. Deal with it.

    On the other hand, I could very easily see you asphyxiating on your own bile, if you're not careful.

    And since you like to hide under your bed, that might mean you wouldn't be found for a few days.

    Something to think about.

    Unfortunately joindee (1.00 / 2) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:40:22 PM EST
    she won't be.

    But a guy can dream, can't they?


    Yeah (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:53:30 PM EST
    I'm sure you have a lot of dreams with big old hangin' trees and good ole boys with torches on moonlit nights..

    What you think of when you say Make America Great Again.


    That was rather shocking, even for him. It's also ironic, given that he's been such an apologist for the Russian interference in our 2016 elections, and conveniently ignores the Trump campaign's ties to the Russian Foreign Ministry and FSB.

    So he's totally cool with the idea of a potential FSB mole like Gen. Flynn serving as Trump's National Security Adviser, but Jane Fonda should be hanged for having once traveled to North Vietnam 44 years ago, an act for which she has since apologized.

    It appears that hate also precludes logic.


    Fonda already has a leg up (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:11:15 PM EST
    on him, Trump, and all his other multiple-deferment chickenhawk heroes in that she actually did go to Vietnam at one point..

    What's so shocking about hanging a traitor? (1.00 / 2) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:45:13 PM EST
    And the investigation said there was no interference.

    But do rattle on. The folks in charge don't care what you think.

    And Fonda gave aid and comfort to an enemy we were at war with.

    BTW - The best description I have heard on the current situation is this.

    "The press is like a family that has never had a pet and then gets a Pit Bull. They don't know whether to pet it, feed it or run from it."



    I've heard enough, Jim. (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:04:47 PM EST
    I really don't think Jeralyn would appreciate the fact that you are using her forum to publicly call for someone else's death.

    And so, I am going to violate her directive about past posts from prior threads, because she really ought to see the vile comment of yours which jondee referenced, since that prior thread was closed at over 200 posts and yours was #203.

    Speaking for myself only, I'll only offer that for someone who lives in mortal fear of Sharia Law, what you did today is not any different than the late Ayatollah Khoumeini's fatwā against British author Salman Rushdie. Both are repulsive declarations.

    Have a nice evening.


    i googled this (none / 0) (#30)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:21:32 PM EST
    and found this post by jane fonda, The Truth About My Trip To Hanoi, which detailes the events and seems quite resonable.

    Ms. Fonda was young and has since apologized. (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:53:43 PM EST
    The Vietnam War was a very passionate, sad and divisive era in American history. My own father was killed in that conflict, 53 years ago today as a matter of fact. I hold no grudges against either anti-war protestors or the people in charge who sent my father to Vietnam in the first place, for the simple reason that it's a complete waste of personal time and energy. One cannot change the unfortunate events of the past, but can only seek to learn and grow from the sometimes bitter and sorry experience.

    Hindsight being 20 / 20, it's readily apparent to me from the available evidence regarding our military involvement in Vietnam that those who opposed and demonstrated against the Vietnam War had entirely valid and moral reasons for doing so. Those who would continue to begrudge those in the anti-war movement that right to act on their own beliefs, even 42 years after the end of the war, are consumed by their own egos, lack the personal capacity to admit that they were wrong.

    And make no mistake, linea, they were wrong. If the late former Defense Sec. Robert MacNamara, one of the primary architects of our country's disastrous policy in Vietnam, could confront the headstrong demons of his past publicly in an effort to atone for his sins, as he did in the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, so can we all, if only we're honest and courageous enough to try.



    {{ hugs }} (none / 0) (#53)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:26:06 PM EST
    linea, here are some thoughts and facts (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:26:41 PM EST
    Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

    A:  It was essential to our strategy.  Support of the war from our rear was completely secure  while the American rear was vulnerable.  Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m.  to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.  Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on  in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

    (emphasis added)

    Interview with North Vietnamese colonel

    The war was essentially over after the failed North Vietnamese Tet offensive in 2/68. Yet the help and support of Fonda and other opponents to the war allowed it to drag on  and on wile thousands more, Vietnamese and US military,were killed.

    Like every ex-military person I know I detest war. But I also know that when you decide to fight you should use every resource you have to end it quickly and the support of the home front is essential.

    Vietnam taught our enemies that we are divided and they can win an asymmetrical war. Thus her actions were doubly damnable.


    Enough with the politically correct BS, Jim. (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 04:30:31 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "Like every ex-military person I know I detest war. But I also know that when you decide to fight you should use every resource you have to end it quickly and the support of the home front is essential."

    You don't "detest war." Rather, it's quite the contrary. You've advocated for war on a regular basis here in these threads and you revel in it vicariously, particularly if it's being waged against Muslim peoples of color. And if anybody disagrees with you and your notion of the way things ought to be, why, they're obviously un-American.

    The Vietnam War was unwinnable. My late father came to that conclusion while serving with MACV back in late 1963, after the Kennedy administration supported the overthrow of South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem, during which he was killed by disaffected ARVN leaders.

    The United States got sucked into a quasi-colonial vortex in the wake of France's defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Far from standing for freedom and democracy, we found ourselves propping up an unpopular and despotic puppet regime in Saigon, a place where each successive change of leadership was accomplished by military coup d'état rather than via the ballot box.

    The best thing we ever did over the entire long course of that tragically misbegotten enterprise was to finally pull the plug on our support in early 1975, which allowed the Saigon regime to quickly swirl down the drainpipe of history and into its sewer, where it properly belonged.

    Our relationship with Vietnam today is a healthy, vibrant and friendly one. Both our countries are much better off for the United States having eventually lost the war, for the simple reason that the Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon administrations were successively unable to ever fully and properly define what an eventual American "victory" would look like.

    And YOU, who've so recently cheered for the success of a Russian intelligence operation that was conducted against your own country, have no right whatsoever to define the term "patriotism" for the rest of us. Nor do you have any conceivable business calling anyone a traitor. Look first to your own sins and shortcomings, Jim, before you seek to condemn others for whatever you perceive theirs to be.

    Have a nice day.


    Donald, I don't know how many times (1.00 / 2) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 10:12:40 PM EST
    you are going to tell us that your father died in Vietnam.

    I got lucky. Mine was in the Marines during WWII but came home.

    Many didn't then and many didn't from Vietnam.

    So maybe it is time to quit wearing your loss like a medal.

    And I will not bother you with the names of friends that I still miss years and years after their deaths.

    But I do ask you to quit lying and making claims that I cheered the Russians.

    Enough. Good night.


    My father made the ultimate sacrifice, Jim. (none / 0) (#157)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 12:37:29 AM EST
    Whereas you never served in Vietnam, and you didn't lose anything. Rather, you stayed home and talked out of your arse, wrapping yourself in the flag like a cheap beach towel and trafficking in arrogance, bigotry and ignorance, just as you're doing now.

    Further, because you are someone who continues to defend those who suborned Russian interference in our nation's electoral process, you are an apologist for sedition. Thus, you have absolutely no standing, moral or otherwise, to be calling anyone a traitor.

    You betray the fundamental principles of this country every time you open your mouth to bash immigrants and people of color without due cause, to charge others of being un-American for the mere crime of disagreeing with you, or to accuse someone of treason for having the temerity to oppose an unjust war in which you never served.

    You don't like what I've said, that's just tough. I stand by every word. You sure love to dish it out, but like most dainty little white-wing snowflakes, you can't handle either the truth or the return fire. Consider yourself lucky that nobody's advocating for YOU to swing by the neck from the nearest yardarm or gallows, Jim, as you've done here -- twice, no less -- for Jane Fonda.

    I'm through here. You're not worth any more of my time.


    The Vietnamese weren't "our" enemies (none / 0) (#108)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:15:20 PM EST
    they were Your enemies.

    But not enough for you to pick up a gun and go over there.

    It's an interesting phenomenon that the tough-talking hawks who never fought are the ones who have the hardest time letting Vietnam go.

    Probably because it only ever existed
    as a fantasy in their imaginations.


    Well, Chucko's comment (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:06:17 PM EST
    that some group should eliminate Trump didn't get zapped so maybe my stated belief that Fonda is a traitor and should have been tried and hanged will be left alone.

    The Chuck0 comment, and another like it (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:53:07 PM EST
    which appeared to urge violent resistance, should have been "zapped," in my opinion, as should yours.

    You are both wrong (none / 0) (#115)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:34:34 PM EST
    about what I said. What I said was that Trump is a threat to national security. Hell, he is a threat to world security. I said that I hoped that there was a cabal of national security types who would take whatever is necessary to remove this threat. I don't care if it is elimination, young boys in his bed or something else to force his resignation. Just so long as the threat to my life and the lives of all Americans is removed. The right has appropriate "patriot" because they like to wave the flag and stand during the Star Spangled Banner. Time to be real patriots and choose country over party. Country over incompetence. Country over bigotry.

    Because ChuckO never said (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 04:04:31 PM EST
    ... that your Cheetoh should be hung )or otherwise killed).  The fact that you can't accurately quote someone is not their problem.  It's yours.

    I twice read comments by Chuck0 (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 05:02:16 PM EST
    that seemed to call for someone to do away with Tr*mp by violent means. I rarely agree with Jim, but on this one, if he mis-read Chuck0, then so did I. Which I hope I did, frankly.

    I read them, too (none / 0) (#128)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:31:41 PM EST
    He didn't do what Jim did.  Someone could interpret his comments to mean that, but they could just as easily be interpreted to mean nonviolent means.  Moreover, as ChuckO explained, that's not what he was saying.

    I am pleased to accept his explanation (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:24:44 PM EST
    or retraction or clarification, as the case may be.

    I have exactly what he said (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 10:00:52 PM EST
    and will be happy to post them.

    He said that there are other ways than impeachment. He then hopes there is a cabal of realists in in the national security apparatus who seed Trump as dangerous and have plans underway to deal with that threat.

    And that is that it would take force or disaster.

    Those are very strong words. Especially given that the CIA has been known to assassinate.

    And since we have now seen leaks of classified information from "unknown sources" it appears that an attempt is underway.

    And before you start claiming that I support any/all illegal government actions, here is what I wrote on the subject of any agency hearing what they think are illegal actions. Take'em to the AG. Or go 100% public.

    Now, IF the actions of the President, in the eyes of the AG,were found to be unacceptable then the AG should go public and resign. If that doesn't happen then others within the chain should go public and resign.

    The press and the voters can then become involved.

    But that isn't what is happening. What we have are people who are political opponents of the President trying to harm the President from the shadows.

    The Bellamy Brothers wrote a song called A Jar of Jalapenos that pretty well covers this.


    I love it, Jim (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 10:17:35 PM EST
    you quote Anders Breivik's muse Pamela Geller on your own blog, and then come here posing as the voice of temparence and non-violence.

    Such a breathe of fresh air you are..

    The Chinese have an old saying: When the wrong man says the right thing, it means nothing.

    That pretty well covers it. Better than any hillbilly band does.


    Because she's not a traitor (4.80 / 5) (#36)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:40:20 PM EST
    To be hung for treason, you actually have to be convicted of treason.  Simply being accused by bitter, armchair warriors trying to relive their glory years on mess duty doesn't count.

    A lot of us (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:58:27 PM EST
    including soldiers, didn't think the North Vietnamese were our enemies..

    You and Trump and Rectal Cysts and Hannity et al didn't think so, or you would've walked your own tough talk instead of whining like little girls 40 years later.


    it is preferable (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:32:06 PM EST
    to not insult men by calling them girls (not a perjorative). sorry.

    Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 04:16:30 AM EST
    linea: "It is preferable to not insult men by calling them girls (not a perjorative). sorry."

    I prefer the term "chickenhawk," as befitting of any vicarious warmonger who's more than happy to consign other poor souls to combat and perhaps injury or even death, while otherwise avoiding any personal risk to himself.


    It is also preferable, Linea (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 11:13:26 AM EST
    For women seeking respect and equal treatment not to undermine their own expressions of opinion and concern by appending an apology to them. IMHO.

    thank you (none / 0) (#132)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:04:53 PM EST
    but my intent was to softly encourage not chastise thus the concluding "sorry."

    Apparently you have more of a problem (3.50 / 2) (#59)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:54:44 PM EST
    with a passing "girl" reference than you do with strangling uppity women to death.

    Alright then.


    what! what? (none / 0) (#63)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:10:20 PM EST
    no more wine for you!!

    Apparently you have more of a problem with a passing "girl" reference than you do with strangling uppity women to death.

    apparently you care more about chololade cake than puppies being kicked?


    Ouch a two from Justice Brandeis (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:41:45 PM EST
    Ouch a two... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:50:29 PM EST
    ... to you too.

    nothing half-a-dozen bisacodyl and a xanax wont fix. lol


    No more laxatives and sedatives for you! (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 12:18:11 AM EST
    Brandeis is more or less my hero (none / 0) (#93)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 11:11:01 AM EST
    So I consider that a compliment (or perhaps an apology to the women in this community and the men who care about treating them fairly). My favorite portrait of Brandeis, btw.

    He was a good man (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:19:47 PM EST
    we could use a few more like him. Especially these days.

    Don't worry linea (2.25 / 4) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 12:55:27 PM EST
    Having been married to the same woman for almost 59 years and helping raise two daughters I understand just how strong "little girls" can be.

    I have also watched while some men, fearing women, hide their fear and hatred by calling other men "whining little girls."

    jondee is just another one of these types. He probably doesn't even understand it himself and when his hidden feelings are pointed out will deny it vehemently. Why he will tell us that his best friends are females.


    Ok we'll just leave it at (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:56:47 PM EST
    you being a small chicklet; aspiring to one day grow up to be a full-grown chickehhawk.

    Which isn't necessarily a bad thing; I've always been a bird lover.


    Judging from Jim's blog (none / 0) (#107)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:06:24 PM EST
    apparently Pamela Geller is his ideal of what little girls should aspire to grow up to be.

    Exhorting unstable little boys to commit acts of mayhem on unsuspecting Muslims. In the name of truth, justice, and the American way.


    You should not watch (none / 0) (#35)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:33:41 PM EST
    Bill Maher.  One of his favorite epithets is "whiny little b*tch."  

    oh. i suppose not exactly (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:42:32 PM EST
    the same. but i think perhaps b!tch is a female "reserved word." like when i was called "chatty" in a job interview. are well-educated prefessional MALES refered to as "chatty" or as outgoing conversationalists?

    Men, who talk too much? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:53:07 PM EST
    Loose canons, I think, is how that comes out.

    I learned early on that keeping your mouth shut at the right time is a very valuable coping mechanisms in various bureaucracies.....Not sure about the value of that in the grand scheme of things....but it does work for the individual.


    Loose "cannon" (none / 0) (#44)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:55:51 PM EST
    But no doubt a lose "canon," which allows all kinds of works into its club, can be a bad thing.

    Is (none / 0) (#4)
    by FlJoe on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 05:41:03 PM EST
    this ranting or raving? Trump Calls Media The 'Enemy Of The American People' or just a fascist meat puppet for Bannon?

    He's already declared (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 06:24:33 PM EST
    "the establishment" enemy. Now all he needs to do is declare professors the enemy and he will have 100% agreement with Nixon on this.

    in my opinion (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:49:55 PM EST
    president trump is correct in the sense that the (dozen) inteligence agencies ahould not be playing a politically partisan game of wikileaks and selectively releasing embarasing information in a personal oposition to the elected president.

    from the article cited:

    In the wake of Flynn's resignation, Trump said the "real scandal" was that classified information was leaked to the press.

    of course, im against having secret information in general and against intelligence agencies in general. america should only have the federal police (FBI) and army intelligence. in my opinion.


    Hmm (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:07:37 PM EST
    were you not praising Wikileaks yesterday here on this blog?

    Actually they are not playing a partisan game. What game they are playing is attempting to keep a Russian mole from damaging the country. Again, if the GOP would just do their jobs I bet the IC would completely quit leaking a lot of this stuff. However you have to realize that all our NATO allies have a dossier on Trump and were collecting information about his Russian connections too. So it isn't just the American IC that has this information. A lot of people have the info on Trump.


    you are (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:58:24 PM EST
    very BLACK and WHITE

    i dont recall "praising" wikileaks. i posted news. wikileaks released information on cia involvement in the french election. you didnt like the news and you were critical of me for posting this news. however, it was important news. there was a TWEET and everything.


    So you know who leaked what? (5.00 / 6) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:40:06 PM EST
    Cuz the rest of us don't. The only thing we all know, Donald Trump is a compulsive liar.

    Really?!? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:47:46 PM EST
    You don't like intelligence agencies???

    Never heard that before ...


    are you (none / 0) (#49)
    by linea on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:12:16 PM EST
    teasing me? i post that too oftem?

    Finally someone is calling out the media (1.50 / 2) (#15)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:29:51 PM EST
    This might be Trump's best work so far... exposing the nonsense.  

    You really have to be a Trump aficionado (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:39:12 PM EST
    to truly appreciate his work.

    Fighting nonsense with inspired meta-nonsense..

    It has a dada performance art quality to it.


    Did you hear today? (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:42:06 PM EST
    That watching the press conference was the nail in the coffin for Harward?

    My favorite part of the news conference (none / 0) (#25)
    by McBain on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:59:25 PM EST
    was his jab at the BBC reporter...

    Trump:  Where are you from?
    BBC reporter:  BBC
    Trump:  Here's another beauty

    Even the BBC reporter had to laugh.


    This is like the book Being There (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by jondee on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:18:14 PM EST
    and McBain and others are like the people who were awestruck every time Chance the Gardner blurted out something idiotic.

    Trump supporters are red hot nuts (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:39:28 AM EST
    It's like you have oppositional defiant disorder and you are delighted that we have a fellow goon for a President.

    Except Trump admitted (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:22:53 PM EST
    the media got the leaks right.  But they are fake news?

    Trump bashes those he actually feels inferior too, and those from whom he seeks but does not find approval.

    It is silly insults that have no substance.  It is about an inferiority complex....I suppose many of his followers want to bash the media for telling them things they do not want to hear.  But the facts will not go away.


    It might be (none / 0) (#39)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 08:43:46 PM EST
    But then again, that's not saying much, and Trump and the wingnuts have been trying to delegitimize the media for many years.  They have trouble dealing with actual news and facts, so they invent "alternative" new and facts that are nothing more than lies and propaganda, but they like it, soooo ...

    Lights on, nobody home (none / 0) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 09:03:01 PM EST
    Finally someone is calling out the media.  This might be Trump's best work so far... exposing the nonsense.

    The guy gets up there and spouts gibberish.  The words are English, but they do not follow a sequence that conveys meaning.

    There are simpletons, morons and fools, i.e supporters of Tr*mp, who do not realize this guy is insane.  They look for actual meaning where there is none, like finding a "face on Mars" through a chance arrangement of rocks.  Since they presume there is meaning even though there isn't, they supply it themselves.  They are simpletons, morons and fools though, so the thoughts they supply as interpretation of gibberish are no better than the source.  This means they will find agreement from their idol for every crazy thought they have.

    As we see at the top of this post.


    Imagine the job of an interpreter (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 10:25:03 PM EST
    trying to cope with the Trumpian gibberish.

    I read a fascinating article today about Japanese interpreters trying to do so.  Some quit, rather than cope with the gibberish.  

    And their task is further complicated by strictures against, in some venues, repeating the sexist and racist statements that he makes as well as his obscenities and vulgarities.  That, unfortunately, tells us that much of the world -- aghast as it is about the lout -- may not even be hearing the worst of what he says.


    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:43:56 AM EST
    What a nightmare, bigly.

    You know, this particular episode of "House of Cards" is just absurdly stupid. Can we please watch something else?



    Michael Beschloss (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 06:23:10 PM EST
    On December 1972 tape, Nixon told Kissinger, "The press is the enemy, the establishment is the enemy, the professors are the enemy."

    ... he had the common decency to express such malevolent thoughts only in private to a political confidant (even if they were being recorded on tape for posterity), and not spew it on national television as a means to further incite his own adoring followers.

    I like Scandal myself (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 17, 2017 at 07:27:51 PM EST
    Millie is fascinating.

    Maybe not (none / 0) (#75)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:22:09 AM EST

    Donald Trump Isn't Mentally Ill. He's Just Unpleasant, Psychiatrist Says

    Reports speculating that President Donald Trump has narcissistic personality disorder are misguided and incorrect, a leading psychiatrist argues this week.


    You know what? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:55:58 AM EST
    We should demand that he be examined by a legitimate MD and a panel of psychiatrists and psychologists and they publicize their findings.

    And even that article is not favorable to Trump. The author says he lacks empathy which is a serious problem because it's something serial killers also lack. His lack of empathy could mean he would have no problem ordering masses of Americans killed.


    Ok (none / 0) (#82)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:05:28 AM EST
    I'll buy it, he is not crazy he is just a big league a-hole.
    He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn't make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose mental disorder," Frances wrote.

    He is not sick because he does not suffer
    A personality disorder must lead to "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning," the DSM IV says
    It's the rest of us who must suffer the fool
    "Mr. Trump causes severe distress rather than experiencing it and has been richly rewarded, rather than punished, for his grandiosity, self-absorption and lack of empathy," Frances wrote.

    and finally how dare you insult the honest mental cases.
    "It is a stigmatizing insult to the mentally ill (who are mostly well behaved and well meaning) to be lumped with Mr. Trump (who is neither)."

    Maybe not crazy, but close enough for government work, IMO.

    Bonus track;

    "Psychiatric name-calling is a misguided way of countering Mr. Trump's attack on democracy. He can, and should, be appropriately denounced for his ignorance, incompetence, impulsivity and pursuit of dictatorial powers," he wrote.
    Thanks for linking to what turns out to be an epic takedown of your boy.

    Why must you (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:30:51 AM EST
    Sully a legitimate post with your childish banter,

    Thanks for linking to what turns out to be an epic takedown of your boy.

    I read the article, I understood the article, and the reason I posted it is because The Donald is not my guy.
    Only childish grade schoolers would continue in such a fashion.

    I have always said The Donald is personally reprehensible to me, and thus I couldn't vote for him.
    I also couldn't vote for Madame Sec.

    I also like some of the policies that The Donald will be rolling out, mostly on the economy.


    I would (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:49:53 AM EST
    rather be childish than craven. You and your deplorable cohort are all too willing to accept the "reprehensible" in order to get your deficit busting tax cuts for the rich, and whatever other conservative wet dreams you happen to fancy.

    Most grade schooners have better moral standards, intellectual consistency and logical reasoning than any Trump supporter, so I will take your barb as a compliment.


    I accept (none / 0) (#86)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:58:43 AM EST
    The legally elected President.
    However reprehensible I found Obama's policies,
    I accepted him

    However reprehensible I find The Donalds personal conduct and speech, I accept him as President.

    It wasn't barb, just a observation upon your reading and analytical skills. Why would a Trump supporter post something negative?  Simple answer, they wouldn't, but that wouldn't stop you from throwing a childish insult into your comment.

    Act like an adult.


    Call (none / 0) (#90)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:32:38 AM EST
    me a child all you want, I will never accept reprehensible behavior from anybody or anything and I will never stop throwing shade at it in ways both sober and silly.

    BTW: you can't fool me, despite your alleged disdain for the Donald, you are always the first in line to step up to his defense.


    This Trevor's go-to lately (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:39:28 PM EST
    he's the adult one here. Just grow up. Please.

    That and, yawn, big nothingburgers.

    As if passively-aggresively trolling left-leaning sites with swill about "the jack-booted EPA" wasn't one step up from putting flaming dog poop on the neighbor's steps..


    There is (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:10:54 AM EST
    a name for you and it's called a Vichy Republican. One who is willing to destroy democracy and have all kinds of evil policies put into practice because you will get a tax cut.

    "Leading psychiatrists" (none / 0) (#147)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:57:23 PM EST
    differ as much from each other as leading politicians or leading lawyers do.

    In the Thin Blue Line you see a leading psychiatrist all but sign Randall Adams's death warrant.


    "Enemy" is merely Nixonian (none / 0) (#148)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:59:52 PM EST
    "Enemy of the people," on the other hand, channels Stalin, Goebbels and Mao. And Ibsen, but that's another story, and probably not the intended or even subconscious reference.

    Why Do They Hate Us? (none / 0) (#101)
    by RickyJim on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:22:56 PM EST
    A good article with which I am in agreement. Despite some comments in ISIS publications, it is because of our foreign policy, rather than being infidels.

    For example underwear bomber Abdulmutallab said at his sentencing:

    I pledged] to attack the United States in retaliation for U.S. support of Israel and in retaliation of the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Palestine, especially in the blockade of Gaza, and in retaliation for the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond, most of them women, children, and noncombatants.
     Several instances where Obama, Trump and other high level US officials have denied the obvious is given.

    Nothing new there (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:24:15 PM EST
    This is from a 3/97 interview with bin Ladin by Peter Arnett, then with CNN.

    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, you've declared a jihad against the United States. Can you tell us why? And is the jihad directed against the US government or the United States' troops in Arabia? What about US civilians in Arabia or the people of the United States?

    BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq.


    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    1997 was about 18 or so years after we helped the rebels in Afghanistan.... at the same time we were helping the Serb Muslims and ignores our supporting Egypt's actions against the Brits and French..

    This whole thing is about reigion. I repeat OBL's words

    but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    IOW, let them do what they want.


    If Bin Laden were still alive (none / 0) (#158)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 01:25:35 AM EST
    and could just limit the jihad to the talk radio and Pam Geller fans, I'd send him a check. Maybe even a map with directions.

    Of Course it is not New (none / 0) (#159)
    by RickyJim on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 09:02:35 AM EST
    But it has to be pointed out again and again that an interventionist foreign policy has not reaped that many benefits but instead caused many troubles for the US.  Read Mearscheimer and Walt, Noam Chomsky or easier, non-intervention.com for some education.

    Milo Yiannopoulos on Bill Maher last night (none / 0) (#105)
    by McBain on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 01:58:41 PM EST

    This guy is more of a comedian than anything else.  Crazy how the left is so afraid of him.  He's politically incorrect, big deal. Let him speak.

    Milo Yiannopoulos, (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by KeysDan on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:36:14 PM EST
    apparently aspires to being the "Liberace" of the ultra right, white nationalists. But, he is all candelabra and no piano.  

    Yiannopoulos is more a performance artist than a comedian, unless you find bigotry, as well as harmful and hateful misinformation to be knee-slappers.

     I doubt that those on the left are afraid of him, it has more to do with legitimizing and normalizing the trolling of a potentially dangerous fringe character, or, at least, what used to be such.

     Certainly, Jeremy Scahill, who declined to participate in the show in protest, is not afraid of Milo, being one of the most courageous investigative reporters around--often risking bodily harm in obtaining stories, including his revelations about Blackwater mercenaries.

    But, I do agree that Yiannopoulos should be given the opportunity to speak in whatever forum that may chose to have him.  He certainly seemed to relish in  the "riots" at Berkeley, and brought undeserved notoriety to the infirm ideas he shops.

     But, it should be clear, in so doing, there will be baiting but no debating. Milo will not survive thoughtful counter-points, so he surely hopes that coquetterie will see him through, as it did in the ineptly playful interview with Maher.  


    Milo Yiannopolous is a pig with lip glass. (none / 0) (#122)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 04:53:30 PM EST
    He's only as relevant as people will allow him to be. And in 35 years, he'll be Henry Gibson's character in Paul T. Anderson's 1999 film "Magnolia" -- a bitter old queen who's sitting alone at a bar, chain-smoking cigarettes and drowning his self-loathing in booze, and ready to berate anyone who suffers the misfortune of attempting to engage him in conversation.



    not what i expected (none / 0) (#111)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 02:40:18 PM EST
    more like an entertainment "shock jock" or "tila tequila" type than i expected.

    the riots and arson and violence is unresonable. the man shot in UW red square during the anti-milo protest is still in serious condition.

    victim: 34yo Seattle computer-security engineer.
    shooter:  29yo UW student.


    Riots? Arson? (none / 0) (#125)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 05:22:12 PM EST

    If we personally feel threatened by him (none / 0) (#112)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:03:19 PM EST
    is it OK to shoot him? I mean, bring him down?

    That is, if "threats" can always be reduced to Percieved threats..

    Just close your eyes and pretend he's black, if that'll make it easier for you to think of Milo as potentially threatening.


    what in mcbain's (none / 0) (#114)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:29:23 PM EST
    post on milo yiannopoulos would in any way would inspire you to accuse mcbain of racism or or having a desire to shoot african americans?

    or did i read that completely wrong?


    There's a long thread (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 03:47:00 PM EST
    that runs through a lot of his posts, concerning what a deadly threat Certain unarmed people, who match a Certain profile, can be.

    So he spoke on nationwide tv (none / 0) (#124)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    or you could not have watched him.

    What, then, is your issue?


    McBain's issue (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by MKS on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 09:30:41 AM EST
    is that he was deliberately trolling.  And many bit.  

    He directly insulted the entire panel. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 05:32:23 PM EST
    Larry Wilmore said what needed to be said. Keeping it 100.

    oh blah. larry wilmore blah. (none / 0) (#137)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 07:54:31 PM EST
    the only thing cringe-worthy in that video was milo embarassing himself by not being appropriately deferential to the counterterrorism expert (the only adult in the room).

    FIFY (none / 0) (#149)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:00:10 PM EST
    [Stephen Colbert] is more of a comedian than anything else.  Crazy how the right is so afraid of him.

    Lion (none / 0) (#129)
    by MKS on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 06:32:39 PM EST
    Just saw it.  Great movie.  I hope it wins.

    Brand new (none / 0) (#141)
    by FlJoe on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:25:57 PM EST
    alt-fact, flies out of trumps fever swamp
    In defending his executive order banning Islamic refugees and travelers from 7 Muslim-majority countries from entering the U.S., Trump said, "When you look at what's happening in Germany, when you look at what's happening last night in Sweden -- Sweden! Who would believe this? Sweden!"
    Who would believe it indeed.

    We mourn with Bowling Green, Sweden (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 10:00:01 PM EST
    as do all who get their facts from Fox and Wiki.

    no terrorists attack (none / 0) (#146)
    by linea on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 08:53:27 PM EST
    but the major news story friday evening out of stolkholm was pretty dispicable though:

    eight men, aged between 50 and 70, were arrested for aggravated child pornography and one was suspected of child rape. one of the men was previously sentenced in 2000 to psychiatric care for abducting and sexually abusing a boy in the late 1990s but released in 2015. news daily Dagens Nyheter, wrote that police sources disclosed the men diiscused "ordering" a foreign child who would be kept in a soundproof room.


    George "The Animal" Steele died (none / 0) (#150)
    by McBain on Sat Feb 18, 2017 at 09:15:07 PM EST
    a few days ago. I've never been a big pro wrestling fan but I do remember a lot of the big names.  What's sad/interesting about Steele's death at 79 is that he appears to be an outlier. Many pro wrestlers die in their 30s and 40s from drug overdose, heart attack and suicide. Even the lovely Miss Elizabeth died at 42.

    No one really knows all the long term effects of performance enhancing drugs because it's difficult to study. One thing we do know is PEDs can enlarge the heart and mess up the body's normal production of testosterone which leads to mood swings and depression.  I don't think it's a stretch to assume PEDs played a role in many of these early deaths.  

    MTracy what's your take (none / 0) (#161)
    by smott on Sun Feb 19, 2017 at 09:49:37 AM EST
    On this ex-NSA guy John Schindler?
    Has some interesting pieces in the Observer.
    He mentioned Comey must have given a whale of a briefing to Sen Intel Comm on Friday which was only a day or so after he tweeted the IC is "going nuclear " on Trump. Jail time mentioned.

    Does he know his stuff?