"You Don't Have to Like Her": You Do Need to Vote

Oprah on the TD Jakes Show, to air Thursday.

There really is no choice people. All the people sitting around talking about they can't decide...You hear this all the time, people saying "I just don't know if I like her." She not comin' over to your house. You don’t have to like her. You do not have to like her. Do you like this country? You better get out there and vote. (my emphasis)

“Do you like freedom and liberty? Do you like this country? Okay. Do you like democracy or do you want a demagogue? Okay, there you go.

I happen to like Hillary Clinton. I've met her a few times, asked her questions at campaign and blogger events and heard her speak in person up close at house parties and in big crowds many times over the past decade.

But for those of you who don't like her, Oprah is right. Please don't let your emotions about someone you've never met and probably never will meet put our nation's future and our children's future in jeopardy. [More...]

This election matters, on every issue, from our Supreme Court justices and federal district and appeals court judges, to health care, immigration, the economy, social security, Roe v. Wade, education and foreign policy. Donald Trump would be the most unqualified and disrespected President in the history of our nation. He is mocked around the world for good reason. We deserve better than (in my opinion) a narcissistic, carnival barker who doesn't treat all people as equal and just makes stuff up as he goes along, either because he doesn't have the attention span to learn about even the most fundamental issues or he can't be bothered.

Tell Donald Trump with your vote that our country is not for sale to the shrillest politician. Let him buy his media company and start his news channel. Let him bring his lawsuits. Someday he will learn that revenge is a dish better served cold. I hope his media company is a colossal failure, and I suspect anyone foolish enough to invest will lose their money because it will fail to generate ratings after initial curiosity wears off and he will follow his typical path of putting the business into bankruptcy. This may just be speculation, but there is a sucker born every minute. Please don't be one of them.

Don't think for a minute your vote doesn't matter. Donald Trump's supporters, however dwindling in number, are delusional and filled with hate and they will vote. Make sure you do too.

We get the government we elect. The right to vote is precious. Please use it. Our democracy and freedom, for generations to come, depend on it.

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    i found this quite interesting (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 03:06:05 AM EST
    a literally un-American take on our election

    it's based partly in Lacanian psychoanalysis

    the comments raise some good points, too

    i like her too. heck, i've always liked her, (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by cpinva on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 03:15:12 AM EST
    since I first encountered her (on tv, not in person) during the 92 campaign. she's smart, compassionate, funny, and actually knows what she's talking about. heck, what's not to like? if I'd been given a choice, as to who I wanted as a big sister (I have no sisters, so I'm not hurting any feelings here), she'd have been the one.

    yeah, I'd always have been compared to her, as far as school and accomplishments go (I had to put up with that with my older brother), but there are worse things in life. sure, she's not perfect, but who is? by comparison to Donald Trump, she is damn near perfect.

    I proudly voted for her in the primary, and i'll leave the voting booth next month, with a grin on my face, having voted for her in the general.

    the whole "LIKE" (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 06:40:06 AM EST
    thing is really lazy analysis.

    Worse than "lazy" (none / 0) (#28)
    by Andreas on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 03:28:54 PM EST
    Both are representatives of US imperialism. Trump is a fascist and Clinton is preparing (nuclear) war against Russia and China. Opponents of imperialism will vote and act against both.

    hi Andreas! are you Greek? (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:31:27 PM EST
    i do feel your sentiments. but i would like you to consider a point that Noam Chomsky recently made. this is a two party system (in america) and one of the two party candidates will win and refusing to pick the "lesser of two evils" is negligent because a third party candidate cant win. he also stated that you are not "voting your conscious" but rather "voting your confort" because making a choice of conscious means weighing the impact of your decision on others. does that help?

    Noam Chomsky (none / 0) (#42)
    by Andreas on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:08:18 PM EST
    I am aware of the position of Noam Chomsky and oppose it. Chomsky in Chicago: The thin gruel of lesser-evil politics

    oh (none / 0) (#44)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:15:44 PM EST
    im sorry.

    Such "opponents of imperialism" ... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:18:11 PM EST
    ... are hyperbolic purity ponies who are in love with the sound of their own braying.

    A little more "purity" and, or wisdom (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:30:53 PM EST
    and compassion influencing the thinking of our policy makers would be far from the worst thing that could happen..

    We already have more than enough ruthless, self-interested Machievellian and Free Market purity influencing policy thinking..


    All well & fine to have personal principles. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:34:10 PM EST
    But if we desire to actually be effective and accomplish things, then we need to transcend our penchants for intellectual self-gratification and learn to operate with our feet grounded in the real world, rather than planted firmly in midair on some ethereal philosophical plain.

    Andreas's hyperbolic claim about Hillary Clinton preparing for nuclear war is both deliberately self-marginalizing and laughably stupid on its face. There's no wisdom or compassion there! On the contrary, it's so noxiously polarizing as to strongly suggest that despite what he may believe about himself, there really is no "us" in him. Therefore, I'm under no obligation to either respect what he says or take him seriously.



    that's it! (none / 0) (#53)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 12:25:18 AM EST
    "laughably stupid on its face."

    that's the line I was looking for the other day, in responding to some nimrod going on about how HRC is basically the second coming of Attila the Hun, or some such nonsense. last I checked, Ms. Clinton hasn't started a war, nor urged the starting of a war, and neither has Obama. the last guy that did that was, um, help me out here....................George Bush! you know, mr. I'd like to have a beer with this guy.

    as the Commander In Chief, you have the entire US military at your fingertips, they all follow your orders. at the same time, you have a responsibility to them, their families and all the rest of us, to use that power judiciously, because real lives are really at stake. a lesson Bush the younger wasn't bright enough to ever figure out: sometimes, the best use of overwhelming military power is to not use it. Pres. Obama figured it out while in the Senate, HRC figured it out while First Lady/Senator/SoS. there is exactly zero in her history that legitimately concerns us that she might go off on a pre-emptive attack mode, nothing.


    You Have Got to be Kidding (none / 0) (#59)
    by RickyJim on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:13:58 AM EST
    Planning on voting for Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    when early voting opens in the morning in Florida. Can't take the chance of dying before Nov 8 and not getting a chance to have my vote recorded for the best presidential candidate of my voting lifetime.

    spending the weekend (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:36:14 PM EST
    phone-banking for Hillary

    calling voters in OH, AZ & NV


    Great! (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:27:55 PM EST
    So are we, all the way to Nov. 7. And the odds are pretty good that we'll likely be adding Texas -- Texas!! -- to our call lists.

    I have my mail-in FL ballot ready (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 11:30:31 AM EST
    to fill in sometime this week. I think I will bring it right to the post office.

    So happy to fill it in for Hillary!


    Put my ballot in the mail (none / 0) (#69)
    by caseyOR on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 12:25:26 PM EST
    last week. Now it is all about the waiting for me.

    PS, ruffian, how about those Cubs?


    Looking for an open thread! (none / 0) (#71)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 01:18:26 PM EST
    Hillary isn't 'likeable enough' (4.67 / 3) (#5)
    by honora on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 08:53:44 AM EST
    Oprah went on and on about the inspirational Obama in 2008.  It really turned me off. He was all historic and Hillary was chopped liver. So much for Oprah's empowering women. This Hillary comment puts the nail in the coffin.  Hillary is the most qualified person ever to run for office. She is funny, compassionate, pragmatic and smart as a whip.  What are people really asking for? Why a man, of course.  Reminds me of all that wanting to have a beer with Bush crap. No one ever mentioned that the guy didn't drink, but we supposedly all wanted to have a beer with him. I will be more excited about voting for Hillary for president than I ever have been voting for anything in my lifetime! I am ecstatic about Hillary and disgusted by Oprah.  She used her platform to diminish Hillary. At least, she didn't do the vote for Hillary to protect Obama's legacy crap.

    my sense (none / 0) (#36)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:36:33 PM EST
    re: "but we supposedly all wanted to have a beer with him"

    is that males wanted to have a beer with him while watching sports and cooking on the grill. that there was a feeling they were understood and accepted.


    The argument works for both (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 08:13:47 AM EST
    you don't have to like Trump. You just have to believe in his policies.

    The Difference is With Trump (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by RickyJim on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 09:29:16 AM EST
    you have less confidence that he could implement his policies.  You also have to worry about his short attention span and inability to seriously evaluate advice from his advisors due to his mistaken belief in the extent of his own knowledge.

    Then the question becomes.... (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    Should I vote for Hillary because I like her policies?

    And that I should not vote for Trump because he can't implement or that he doesn't take advice.

    On the implementation issue I don't think that Trump's supporters believe he can implement without Congress. What they do believe is that he will try and depend on his supporters to pressure Congress on the individual issues.

    On the taking advice side you have a point. But doing things his way has proved successful for him. Will it work for the election?? Well, the talking heads all tell us no and they may be right. But as Curly said, "The day ain't over yet."

    On a side note I think that both base groups like the candidate and are engaged in trying to convince everyone else that the opponent is mean and nasty. The media works this daily.


    Unfortunately in the reality-based world ... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Erehwon on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:41:11 AM EST
    only one opponent has been mean and nasty all his life.

    That's your opinion (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:54:07 AM EST
    but I've seen lots of stories about the good things Trump has done. Accurate? Don't know. Don't care.

    It's his stated policies on immigration, foreign policy and the economy that attracts me...

    On a personal note... I broke a tooth this morning. I will be in my dentists chair, hopefully, at 8:00 AM tomorrow. He's quite a cad and has some other traits I don't like.

    But he is one fine dentists with a record that shows his ability.


    The funniest part ... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Yman on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 12:19:02 PM EST
    On a personal note... I broke a tooth this morning. I will be in my dentists chair, hopefully, at 8:00 AM tomorrow. He's quite a cad and has some other traits I don't like.

    But he is one fine dentists with a record that shows his ability.

    ... is you're using this as an analogy for why you're voting for Trump.  If Trump was a dentist, he would be the one who's never seen the inside of a human mouth, has no interest in learning about the human mouth, doesn't prepare for a discussion about the human mouth, and makes commercials claiming he can cure all their dental ailments by some magical dental tool filled with pixie dust.

    On a side note, there's another obvious reason you may want to avoid dental analogies.  I'm thinking given his own statements and the number of accusations against him - "Dr." Trump would probably have trouble attracting many female patients.


    You're so eager to be nasty (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:27:49 PM EST
    that you ignore my point that I don't care about the personalities of the people I hire.

    Which is the plea of all of Hillary's partisans...and of Trump's... ignore mine but not my opponent's.


    Speak for yourself (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Yman on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:52:38 PM EST
    I'm perfectly fine with Hillary's personality, so don't pretend to speak for her supporters.  Although I understand why you can't help but acknowledge you're embarrassed by Donald's.  Who wouldn't be?

    BTW - Donald's temperament  (or lack thereof) is extremely relevant to whether he should be POTUS.  Care to place a bet on whether he follows through on his promise to sue these women?


    The tendency to dishonesty, hypocrisy (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:09:56 PM EST
    and ruthless double-dealing are "personality components" that would certainly influence the commitment to and    enactment or non-enactment of "stated policy"..

    So personality traits aren't a factor that should be so cavalierly discounted.

    But then, someone with a personality component that would compel them to support a used kitchen appliance for President if the GOP nominated one, is going to have some blind spots when it comes to someone like Trump.


    the difference is (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 03:43:28 PM EST
    Trump lacks competence and experience at governing.
    Would you let a podiatrist fix your tooth? Would you hire your estate lawyer to defend you on a murder charge? He's running for the top executive position in the country and commander in chief. He's unacceptable to any rational person.

    There are several ways to look at this (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 08:17:27 AM EST
    If you are looking for Executive Experience then Trump has more than any President in our history.

    Certainly more than Hillary, Obama, GHW Bush, Kennedy, Nixon, Truman.

    OTOH G Bush was a governor as was Carter and Reagan.

    A rather mixed bag.

    My point is that when selecting a dentist, podiatrist, lawyer, or anyone for a specific task in which won't have to have a personal relationship, you should look at competence, not personalities.

    We disagree regarding the competence of Trump and Hillary.

    Hillary's actions re emails, irregardless of what anyone else has done, defines her competence and and judgment. (Judgement is actually part of competence.)

    Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.



    You're in apples and oranges land, Jim (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:01:04 AM EST
    someone who ran a successful plumbing company for forty years may have more "executive experience" than any general, but that doesn't qualify him to be head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

    You must be, on some level, dimly aware of that fact..


    And then there is bad executive experience ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Erehwon on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 02:57:27 PM EST
    Trump has driven enough businesses to bankruptcies that we should not let him have the keys to the US. He thinks it's just a matter of filing Chapter 7 or 11 or else. Heck, he's already talked about negotiating down the national debt ...

    Trump supporters are flailing ... what else can they do?


    i'm sorry to hear about your tooth jim (none / 0) (#37)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:39:06 PM EST
    {{   }}

    these say all about you that could possibly (none / 0) (#52)
    by cpinva on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:48:49 PM EST
    be said:

    "but I've seen lots of stories about the good things Trump has done. Accurate? Don't know. Don't care.

    It's his stated policies on immigration, foreign policy and the economy that attracts me..."

    well, there was that one time he didn't attempt to grope a woman standing near him, so that could conceivably count as a "good" thing. although, the fact that she had a bodyguard, pointing a semi-auto 9mm right at Mr. Trump's temple may have had something to do with it. accurate? don't know, don't care.

    Mr. Trump's "stated" positions on both domestic & foreign policies change with the direction of the wind, with one exception, lower marginal tax rates for he and his wealthy peers. because, as history has demonstrated, a lower marginal tax rate for the wealthy raises all levels of economic ships. oh, wait, that's not quite true, they don't. they also create exactly zero jobs. oh well, thought I had one for you there, for just a nano-second. then it went away, as we all hope Mr. Trump does on Nov. 9th.

    I am curious about one thing Jim, does it ever get tiring being the William Kristol of this here blog? you know, being wrong every single time, on every single subject. you have taken the hobgoblin of a boring consistency, and made it disgusted with itself. way to go!


    Actually (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 08:29:49 AM EST
    If I thought a position was wrong I would change it. Which I have done through out my life. I am continually seeking new information.

    Question. Will Trump's tax plan lower your taxes and will Hillary's raise them? And if you think the government needs more money why don't you just send in a check?

    Trump's plan is not trickle down based on tax cuts. Although putting more money in people's hands will spur the economy.

    Although Obama's economy is stalled at 1% despite the stock market soaring and the rich getting richer.

    Why you would think he was a Repub.

    It is stopping the job flight and reframing trade agreements to actually be fair.

    And we have proof that Hillary either believes in globalism and open borders or she was lying when she made the speech or is lying now.

    Which is it?


    Neither (none / 0) (#57)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 08:47:22 AM EST
    It would be your candidate that is lying about her position on "open borders."  This false claim has been debunked numerous times by numerous factcheck erst.

    But you already knew that.


    She said what she said (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 10:28:47 AM EST
    "My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders, some time in the future with energy that is as green and sustainable as we can get it, powering growth and opportunity for every person in the hemisphere."

    She now claims that she was only speaking about energy.

    Consider that she was speaking to bankers. The very class that has grown rich on NAFTA and other unfair trade deals and cheap labor.

    Examine her other positions re immigration.

    And you get her position. She is for open borders.

    Or perhaps she should have said, I am for open borders only for energy.



    She did indeed (none / 0) (#66)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 11:01:25 AM EST
    Your problem is - as noted by every one of the fact checkers who's debunked this Trump lie - she didn't say what Trump (and you) are falsely claiming.



    BTW - Answer (none / 0) (#60)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:15:31 AM EST
    Hillary's tax plan will make a tiny reduction in taxes for those making less than $250K, while raising taxes on the wealthy.  Donald's will give small reductions to the middle class and poor,  while giving the wealthy am average tax break of $215,000.  Of course,  his plan will balloon the deficit by 7 trillion dollars to pay for those tax cuts,  passing the cost to our children and grandchildren.

    This is the part (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:20:00 AM EST
    where he sinks down into the swamp to resurface in another spot hours later.

    Trump's plan would reduce (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 10:43:32 AM EST
    Brackets & Rates for Married-Joint filers:
    Less than $75,000: 12%
    More than $75,000 but less than $225,000: 25%
    More than $225,000: 33%
    *Brackets for single filers are ½ of these amounts

    Taxes across the board.



    Yep (none / 0) (#67)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 11:07:45 AM EST
    As always with you Republicans, the poor and the middle class get a few, token bucks,  while the wealthy can buy a nice vacation home and a couple luxury cars with their tax break.  Of course,  the kids and grandkids are left with the 7 trillion dollar tab.

    But the link to Trump's campaign site was sooooooooo persuasive!



    Policies????? (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 07:20:59 PM EST

    the policies expressed (none / 0) (#19)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:07:27 PM EST
    in his so-called Gettysburg Address yesterday are largely foolish, incoherent, & (best part) impossible to implement

    what were those policies? (none / 0) (#38)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:43:05 PM EST
    but his policies (none / 0) (#20)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:10:19 PM EST
    are often foolish, incoherent, & impossible to implement anyway

    They are Both Scary (none / 0) (#7)
    by RickyJim on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 10:28:43 AM EST
    Ross Douhat has a good column today on why he is concerned about the next presidency.  But I think even he will admit that Hillary is less scary.

    So what he is saying (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 10:49:50 AM EST
    is that Hillary will do nothing to change the direction and will go along with the group think that has got us here.

    I think we all knew that.

    The question is do we accept where we are and were we are going?


    We just have to change the Congress (none / 0) (#72)
    by Steve13209 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 02:03:43 PM EST
    Then we can move forward.

    You do realize that a democracy means (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 02:37:31 PM EST
    We are governed by group think right? I'm trying not to break out laughing here Jim

    Conservatives (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:00:44 AM EST
    generally are saying both are scary because of Trump's obvious unfitness for office and they know Hillary will pretty much destroy conservatism. Most conservatives know this is the end of the line for them and they certainly are scared of that fact.

    For Me, It's Her Interventionism (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by RickyJim on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:20:22 AM EST
    that scares me.  I see little restraint in her history of using American military power for vague benefits to the US.  As Douhat put it,
    Almost every crisis that has come upon the West in the last 15 years has its roots in this establishmentarian type of folly. The Iraq War, which liberals prefer to remember as a conflict conjured by a neoconservative cabal, was actually the work of a bipartisan interventionist consensus, pushed hard by George W. Bush but embraced as well by a large slice of center-left opinion that included Tony Blair and more than half of Senate Democrats.
    And her Putin bashing in the last debate didn't inspire confidence either.

    Oh, boy (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:14:47 PM EST
    George W. Bush is responsible for Iraq. The buck stops there. I find it interesting that people have been screaming at Obama for being "weak" are now terrified of someone who is a "hawk".

    WaPost article on foreign policy elite (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by pitachips on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 08:28:34 PM EST
    and their hopes for a more "muscular" foreign policy.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/washington-foreign-policy-elites-not-sorry-to-see-obama-go/2 016/10/20/bd2334a2-9228-11e6-9c52-0b10449e33c4_story.html


    Trump's base is not conservatives (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:42:40 AM EST
    Never has been.

    He appeals to conservatives on some issues.

    Hillary none.

    His base position is that the elites of both parties have done their best to maintain the status quo and that it is all an argument over who get the best parking places.

    As I have said before. The Republican party is either drastically changed...if Trump wins...or replaced by a new party if Trump loses.

    And the Democrats continue their movement to becoming an identified and embraced Socialist Party. Bernie showed us that the young voter wants that.


    A lot of his base fits neatly into ... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Erehwon on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:54:34 AM EST
    the basket of deplorables.

    And I assume none of those various Bush/Reagan appointees, who are supporting Hillary, are no longer conservative. Right?

    Why's Brooklyn Bridge not available for sale when I want to buy it?


    "basket of deplorables" (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:16:48 PM EST
    even Eleanor Holmes Norton, Hillary's mentor & good friend, said that this remark is the worst thing she's ever heard in politics

    because Trump himself is so appalling, those words won't hurt Hillary as much as they probably would if she had a more conventional Republican opponent


    Norton's personal scope and historical memory (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:49:27 PM EST
    must be incredibly and laughably narrow if that really was literally "the worst thing she's ever heard" in politics..

    I mean really.

    "Basket of deplorables" was worse than, say, all the years and years of crypto-racist dog whistling the Right has done, and all the irresponsible, grandstanding, sabre rattling both Repubs and Demos have done in the last few decades?


    you should read up (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:31:07 PM EST
    on the history of US conservatism in the post-World War II period before you presume to "assume" anything else in public about today's conservatives

    i say this as a lifelong liberal, that is, as someone who values constructive discussion, which often depends on at least some familiarity with an ideological opponent's intellectual grounding & point of view, not to mention the maturity to respect the fact that two opposing points of view may both be legitimate


    Who Trump's base is (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 01:20:33 PM EST
    is basically cultural conservatives who want the old way back. Their problem with Hillary appears to mainly be cultural and you couldn't find a more "elitist" candidate than Trump who has ripped people off like the ones that are voting for him. They think Trump will blow everything up and they'll once again be on the top of the heap. They should study history if they believe that.  

    trumps base (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 03:46:32 PM EST
    is the marginalized angry unhappy extremists in our society who think the world owes them something, and those with irrational Clinton Degrangement syndrome.

    We've heard your view numerous times in this thread. Please don't be a blogclogger and move to another one..


    ... per an ABC News poll, Trump is the overwhelming choice of white males without a college degree, 60-29%. But amongst everybody else, Hillary Clinton is opening a can of whoopass on him, 55-33%.

    And per John Ralston in Nevada, initial reports from record early voting turnout in Clark County (Las Vegas) -- where 75% of that state's population resides -- could portend an ominous trend and resultant fate for down-ballot Republican candidates running for both Congress and the state legislature. While it's obviously still early, Mrs. Clinton's campaign is showing potential of some very serious coattails.



    Thanks Jeralyn, (none / 0) (#54)
    by fishcamp on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 06:01:45 AM EST
    can't wait to use that one at the gym.

    Trump's base aren't conservatives.. (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    Yes, why didn't any of us see it before?

    Trump tricked us all into thinking his supporters were conservatives based on his positions on abortion, the 2nd Amendment, the global warming "hoax", "over-regulation", and tax cuts for the wealthy as a universal panacea for the economy..


    Ross Douthat is a right-wing a$$hat. (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 11:48:23 AM EST
    He is a converted Roman Catholic who's gone so far as to suggest that Pope Francis is perhaps heretical, for desiring that the Church be less dogmatic on LGBT, family and women's issues and more concerned about the plight of the poor.

    Never mind that Douthat has absolutely no theological qualifications for writing on the subject of church doctrine. Rather, the inherent problem with his unyielding view of Roman Catholicism is that it is entirely subordinate to a politically partisan narrative, one which actually has very little to do with the core essence of faith itself.

    Likewise, Douthat's divisive and systematic demonization of liberals and progressives often borders on outright slander, and represents the sort of unyielding populist demagogy that Jeralyn and others are warning against.



    i am bewildered (none / 0) (#40)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 04:51:41 PM EST
    by the inclusion of the convert reference. is RD more divergent that Traditionalist Catholics or SSPX?

    Converts like Douthat and Newt Gingrich ... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:12:35 PM EST
    ... tend to embrace their adopted faith with an intensity and fervor which I often find to be annoying and worse. Gingrich himself wrote a book a few years ago, in which he offers his own criteria for being a good Catholic. If you recall, I wrote about this on Friday in the Open Thread, in which I dismissed them as "more Catholic than the Pope."

    i do recall (none / 0) (#45)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:18:51 PM EST
    that's why i commented. it felt like a re-occuring theme (smile).

    Douthat is a hardline conservative. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:50:24 PM EST
    Now, there's nothing wrong with being politically conservative. But Douthat is so stubbornly doctrinaire that his presence onstage is generally counterproductive to public debate.

    You're never going to solve problems by demonizing whole segments of society, and restricting the pool of political consensus to only those who so happen to agree with you.

    From the standpoint of public policy development, that's a formula for inflicting some very serious grief on the country at large, and escalating the potential for a real disaster to occur.



    did you read the article? (none / 0) (#49)
    by linea on Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 05:58:07 PM EST
    i didnt get any sense of that, any of that, from the article referenced.

    I did - but I really needn't have bothered. (none / 0) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 01:02:49 PM EST
    First off, Ross Douthat is a very predictable right-wing flamethrower. Second, anyone who thinks that Pope Francis is heretical is someone with some screws loose. The NYT op-ed's headline pretty accurately described its contents as typical Douthat hyper-partisan BS. It's yet another example of Clinton Derangement Syndrome.

    Early voting starts today in MA (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Mon Oct 24, 2016 at 09:56:35 AM EST
    This is the first year we've ever had early voting.  I've never had long lines at my polling place previously - probably doesn't hurt that when I moved 5 blocks away I got switched to a new polling place - that was directly across the street from the old one.  Nevertheless, I'm pretty excited, so if the lines aren't too long I'll go vote at lunch time.

    Even though the presidential race is pretty much set in stone here, none of our house races are competitive, and neither senator is up for re-election, we do have some pretty big ballot questions.  Legalizing and regulating pot, expanding charter schools, expanding gambling to one additional slot parlor which could only possibly be for a particular location and the business person who wants it there, and mandating cage free eggs.  At this point I think I'm coming down yes, no, no (not anti-gambling, just anti using ballot questions for this purpose), and no (I eat cage free eggs already, but it's expensive enough to live here and I'm not going to eliminate a cheap source of protein for others, sorry chickens).