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Late Night: The Road to Nowhere

Harry Reid responds to Sarah Palin's speech in which she said Reid can't stand John McCain:

Jim Manley, spokesman for Senator Reid: "Anyone who knows Senator Reid knows he never backs down when he's fighting for what's right and that he always stands up to John McCain when he is wrong. Shrill and sarcastic political attacks may fire up the Republican base, but they don't change the fact that a McCain-Palin administration would mean four more years of failed Bush-Cheney policies."

More...

I probably would have left off the word "shrill" but otherwise he's right.

McCain/Palin is a bridge to nowhere and a turnover of our government to the radical right. Why not just tell James Dobson to pull his trailer right up to the White House and move in?

How many Supreme Court justices would a McCain/Palin Administration get to appoint? Somewhere between 1 and 4 by my count.

Rudy Giuliani calls McCain/Palin the future. I'd say they are stuck in the mud and would put us on the road to nowhere.

< Obama's Response to Palin's Speech | Biden on Palin >
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    Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Tony on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:31:07 AM EST
    The first thing that jumped out at me was the word "shrill."  Not a smart choice of words.

    Beyond that, I completely agree.  That speech was not just an endorsement of the Bush administration, it was a celebration of it.  And vicious.  Man, oh man.  It is going to be a long eight weeks.  I particularly enjoyed the standing ovation for mocking people getting their rights read to them.

    Shrill (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:57:32 AM EST
    was a very deliberate choice of words, not some accident.  It seems to be the Democratic code word for b-tch.

    The Democratic party seems determined to use sexism as a tool, without restraint.  I guess they must consider it the safest, surest way to try to marginalize any female opponent.  There are no consequences for engaging in sexism because they think all us little ladies will vote for them anyway.  Where's the downside?

    Parent

    I don't know about that (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Dave B on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:48:20 AM EST
    Shrill was a word my wife used last night.  She felt that Palin was shrill and cocky, didn't like her one bit.

    We were both Hillary supporters, and that speech put us squarely in Obama's corner.  They were not going for Hillary supporters, just red meat for the base.

    Parent

    "Shrill" does not magically lose (none / 0) (#156)
    by echinopsia on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:12:22 AM EST
    its sexist overtones just because a woman is the one using it.

    Parent
    Her speech was not antagonizing? (none / 0) (#170)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 03:28:14 PM EST
    You would be pretty much one of the only people on the planet in either party who thought it was not antagonizing.

    Parent
    Feh. Don't ask me what I think of Congress (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by jerry on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:43:22 AM EST
    If Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi had been doing their jobs, we wouldn't be in a neck and neck race.

    As Jim Rockford once told Angel Martin who had been framed for a murder, "this frame was made for you, and you look good in it."

    (Well if you can use Harper Valley PTA metaphors, I can use Rockford Files metaphors.  (Can't I?))

    Anyway, if we had actual leaders and not just careerists, ...

    Yep, reminds me of the time (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by TomStewart on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:03:09 AM EST
    Rocky was getting on Jim for getting shot (grazed really) in the head:

    "Two more inches to the right and you'd be dead!"

    "Yeah Rocky, but two inches to the left and it'd have missed me completely!"

    Harry and Nancy (and Senator Obama) need to go two inches to the left, and show the progressive spirit. Two more inches to the right and we'll be dead.

    Parent

    Yeah, Harry Reid isn't afraid of a fight ... (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:51:17 AM EST
    unless the telecoms politely tell him to take the gloves off.

    Im thinkin (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:44:55 AM EST
    she could take Harry and Nancy together.


    Parent
    Harry's got a tin ear. "Shrill"? (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:04:14 AM EST


    harry may or may not (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by sancho on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:48:02 AM EST
    have a tin ear but the use of the word was, imo, intentional. the "periodic" use of sexist langauge to denigrate a female candidate (especially one with "claws" out) is appropriate political behavior.

    that's what i learned during the democratic primary.  

    Parent

    Yes. As far as dogwhistles go, (none / 0) (#39)
    by ding7777 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:07:49 AM EST
    "shrill" is in the same category as "shuck and jive". Unfortunely, there  will be no demand for an apology from either side for using "shrill".

    Parent
    All kidding aside though, (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:29:22 AM EST
    Palin has such a nasal voice that "shrill" is an accurate description.  I would not use the word because, for the most part, it is sexist. Her voice goes right through me.

    Parent
    Most women have higher-pitched (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by honora on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:15:59 AM EST
    voices than most men.  Get over it.  That is how women sound. If you wish to use that as an excuse to criticize women politicians go ahead, but don't expect the majority of fair-minded people to jump in and agree with you.

    Parent
    Rudy has a terrible speaking voice (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:44:39 AM EST
    His lisp drives me up the wall. Lieberman makes me fall asleep..that monotone is horrible. Palin talks through her nose..almost as if she has a permanent cold. I find her voice annoying. Some men have annoying voices and so do some women.

    Parent
    as opposed to Bush and Obama's (none / 0) (#102)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:06:42 AM EST
    uh uh uh mmm mmm mmm er er er

    Those two are the KING of disfluencies.

    Parent

    I don't know many women who sound (none / 0) (#168)
    by befuddledvoter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:43:46 PM EST
    like Palin.  Honestly I do not.  I am 90 lbs and I do not sound like that.  I find her voice irritating, as in grating.  

    Parent
    I feel the same way. Can we say abrasive? (none / 0) (#37)
    by independent voter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:03:59 AM EST
    Proabably not. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:20:00 AM EST
    Someone will find some way to be offended by that too - rolling eyes.

    Palin revealed herself to be mean-spirited, mocking and contemptuous of the American people last night.  She's just another school yard bully who grew up and became a Republican.

    Parent

    She reminded me of High School (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:38:36 AM EST
    all over again. Those nasty 'clique' kids who slice and dice hapless outsiders while never losing their smile. Awful, mean, contemptuous and smug.

    Parent
    I detest the McCain/Palin/GOP policies (none / 0) (#166)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:46:19 PM EST
    and their entire view of government.

    But what do you have in mind when you say:

    Palin revealed herself to be contemptuous of the American people last night...


    Parent
    I thought the tone was so (none / 0) (#169)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 03:24:49 PM EST
    disrespectful that it suggested that she doesn't really care about anything other than winning power.  She chose not to really offer any ideas and instead engaged in a cynical mocking attack of the notion of hope, community organizing, change, doric columns and the needs of the American people.  

    When she said that McCain had to be elected or we would face death - well what do you say to that kind of hyperbole?  

    I just thought it showed contempt for Americans and America - the way Bush does, Gonzales does, Cheney does - they way so many in the GOP leadership do.  It is their show - you work for them - you are either with them or against them etc...

    It is just an ugly and deeply cynical view of the world and the way they talk it is clear that there is contempt and in some cases a burning hatred for any who dare disagree with them.

    I am not even sure they know why they hate the way they do - they come off to me as being similar to the cruelest iteration of teenagers so entrenched in whatever the power play is at the moment that they totally lack perspective or compassion of any kind.

    I find them so dark and so driven in their quest that I think they are quite frightening really.

    Parent

    I don't disagreee with your perspective... (none / 0) (#171)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    But the GOP is so GD good at the POPULIST RHETORIC; they can talk-the-talk without having to walk-the-walk.

    Obama/Biden have to make this GOP hypocrisy clear to the American people. And make it clear that the Dems will walk-the-walk on populist issues.

    Parent

    I agree with you and I would go one (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:25:51 PM EST
    step further where I think Dems often miss the boat - people have to feel like they care - not just know that they can rattle off a laundry list of problems that they have.  People need to feel that there is some passion and real desire to address problems behind their rhetoric.

    Parent
    So, you'd be ok (none / 0) (#43)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:16:53 AM EST
    with calling a black man 'uppity' also?  I'm troll-rating your comment.

    Parent
    some of the first (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:26:43 AM EST
    comments on this board about Palin last night called her "arrogant".  Gee, I wonder how it would go over if Obama was called "arrogant".

    Parent
    or (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by borisbor on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:40:41 AM EST
    "elitist"

    code word for uppity.

    Parent

    that's such a load of crap (none / 0) (#100)
    by txpolitico67 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:05:36 AM EST
    get off it already.  any slight to Senator Obama and it's RACIST.

    absolutely weak and pathetic.  victimhood and very michelle malkin-ish.

    Parent

    they use 'presumptuous' instead (none / 0) (#81)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:41:48 AM EST
    same meaning but not as obvious.

    Parent
    Grrrrr. Harry Reid regarding Joe Lieberman today (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by jerry on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:15:28 AM EST
    Lieberman could lose chairmanship, Democrats warn

    After Lieberman completed his speech, Reid let it be known Tuesday night that he thought Lieberman had gone over the line.

    Ooh!  We're going to get tough and strip Lieberman of his chairmanship!  That's great, and gutsy to do before the election when we need his vote.  It's the right thing to do though.

    Reality:

    "The Democratic Caucus will reassess the situation with Sen. Lieberman after the election," Jim Manley, a spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, said Wednesday.

    Aieeee!  What did I do to deserve these guys!?

    If Lieberman isn't careful (5.00 / 7) (#8)
    by dws3665 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:22:57 AM EST
    The senate leadership will give him a very stern talking to! They may even poke him with the soft pillows.

    Parent
    or they'll send him a letter (none / 0) (#32)
    by Redshoes on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:28:49 AM EST
    A letter alright (none / 0) (#135)
    by frenly on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:30:00 AM EST
    a sternly worded letter

    Parent
    oh noes (none / 0) (#73)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:27:35 AM EST
    Will they demand an apology too?

    Quaking,is Lieberman.

    Parent

    Didn't we have a list of Republicans speak (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:33:31 AM EST
    at our convention? I hope the party realized their invited guests could be risking their position for accepting.


    Parent
    The DNC featured on former (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:35:59 AM EST
    Republican Congress person and lots of just ordinary folks who saw the light suddenly.

    Parent
    LOL (none / 0) (#26)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 05:03:32 AM EST
    Nice spin.

    Parent
    They were largely (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:12:15 AM EST
    retired Republicans.   Jim Leach is no longer a member of Congress.

    Parent
    Lieberman could lose chairmanship (none / 0) (#40)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:12:26 AM EST
    LOL - too funny. Lieberman is no longer a Democrat (he was elected under some other party - Lamont got the Dem nomination).  He hasn't supported the party platform for a while - votes with the Rethugs.  Now he speaks at the Republican convention supporting their candidates.

    So the 'leadership' issues a limp-wristed warning.  Those chairmanships aren't going anywhere until after November.  What's the audience for this message?  Reid thinks Lieberman will be in any way affected by this 'warning'?

    In other news, Reid has a line?

    Parent

    The "Do nothing Congress" comment (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by bridget on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:24:37 AM EST
    and the Harry Reid attack was quite  the knock-out
    by the newcomer Palin IMO cause Reid and Pelosi absolutely refused to stand up ./. the current administration. Didn't she say exactly what Dems have been complaining about since 2006?

    Who would have thunk things would turn out like this when the Dems got the minority in 2006. We actually believed we could end the war for heavens sake. But then along came UNITY ....  

    OH ... and Biden has his work cut out for him in the upcoming VP debate. From listening to Palin only once It won't be a walk in the park for him despite his thirtysomething years in Washington.

    P.S. correction: Dems got the "majority"
    I left it because it must have been a Freudian slip on my part. Sadly.    

    She gave him an opening last night. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by indy in sc on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:26:21 AM EST
    She was so nasty that there is no reason to leave the gloves on.  I agree that it will still be somewhat dicey perception-wise, but he should go at her hard and just stick to the issues.  Personal attacks will backfire, but issues based attacks should be made early and often.  If her camp complains afterward, just respond with the fact that she had no trouble deriding Obama and Biden and descibed herself as a pitbull with lipstick--why should we hang the "poor little woman" mantle on her now.   Also, she said Hillary should not complain about the treatment she was getting she should just "work harder." Same would go for Palin then I presume.  

    After last night, I am truly fired up and ready to go.  I made a donation to the O campaign last night.  We can't go through 4 more years of misguided foreign policy (this time with a hair-trigger Prez) and disregard for the economy...4 more months is bad enough.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#56)
    by borisbor on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:45:01 AM EST
    we'll see how well Eskew and Schmidt coach her on the little details... you know like foreign policy, national security, the economy, health care, education, etc.  the only ace she has is energy, which is basically 'drill baby drill' (their favourite chant last night it seemed).

    Parent
    The male debate moderators seemed to get away (none / 0) (#66)
    by honora on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:17:26 AM EST
    with it during the Democratic primary debates.

    Parent
    Shrill?!? (5.00 / 13) (#10)
    by FemB4dem on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:25:34 AM EST
    Do the Dem powers-that-be have a meeting every mornnig to decide what they can do today to further insult and piss off women?  

    Hey, fellows, what shall we (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:32:46 AM EST
    use as a talking point today?  

    Parent
    Did Reid say Palin was "shrill"? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 03:36:32 AM EST
    Anyway, Campbell Brown and a couple of other pundits had a real problem with that word.

    Parent
    the media got scared into (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by borisbor on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:46:40 AM EST
    backing off Palin again. they glossed over the fact that she lied about her own record and obama's economic plan...  instead we hear how she 'hit it out of the park'

    Parent
    Reid had his (none / 0) (#45)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:18:52 AM EST
    spokesperson say it.  Classy.

    Parent
    It was a bad way to put it... (3.66 / 3) (#20)
    by Thanin on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:53:55 AM EST
    but palin does have a terrible voice... but not because of her gender.

    Parent
    What is "terrible" about Palin's voice? (5.00 / 6) (#21)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 03:31:26 AM EST
    Reminds me of the endless MSM carping about Hillary's voice.

    Tell me, has any pundit, or pol, ever had a problem with the tone, or sound, of any MAN'S voice?

    Parent

    I've never heard them say it (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:07:33 AM EST
    but they should have a problem with Lieberman's voice.  Everytime he talks he sounds like he's whining.

    Parent
    Sounds like my relatives in the Northwest (none / 0) (#173)
    by Cream City on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:58:38 PM EST
    and they're good people.  They think I have an accent.

    Say, Thanin, you never replied back re your statement that you're Native American, when I asked which tribe?  

    Interesting, as I since found out that Thanin is an Asian name.  Did you think we were discussing natives of India?

    Parent

    You know the reason Palin could (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by Serene1 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:26:19 AM EST
    with a smile deliver all those blows against Obama and still get away with it is because of the viciousness with which the left bloggers and MSM attacked her on her personal matters.
    If they had treated her like any other male candidate, her talk last night which was mostly negative would not have been appreciated by many. But seeing the kind of smears she herself was subjected to from her opponents her speech yesterday felt like fair game.
    That is why I feel Democrats should not behave like republicans if they have to take down their opponent. There is a reason why republicans are not exactly popular now and if Democrats insist on behaving like republicans then it becomes very hard to distinguish who is who.

    So much more effective to rise above (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:32:02 AM EST
    one's opponent. To pull them down, one must get under them.


    Parent
    She could have cribbed ... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:48:44 AM EST
    most of her criticism of Obama from things people on TalkLeft said during the primaries and after, with the possible exception of the way she criticized his stance on the war.

    And Obama's a grown-up he can take it.

    But Palin can be just a side show, if Obama gets his message about fixing the economy out.  And if pundits and Dem blogs stop obsessing over her.

    Parent

    Are you serious? (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by lizpolaris on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:21:40 AM EST
    Her speech was really a typical VP stump-type speech.  Did you listen to Biden when he bashed Republicans during his acceptance speech?  It's the normal job of the VP - business as usual.

    Parent
    Nah, Palin is an evangelical Christian (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:48:48 AM EST
    She delivered her speech with a confident smile because she feels she's got a direct line to God and she's doing His will. She knows what's best for all of us..God told her.

    Parent
    Right from the start (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Serene1 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:47:05 AM EST
    the thing that most irritated me about the Obama set was their praise of Reagan and trashing of Bill C all in the name of reaching out and post partisan blah blah. It was really not needed. Republicans were never going to reward them for the same. I hope they have learnt their lesson at least now.

    i don't (none / 0) (#62)
    by borisbor on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:49:15 AM EST
    think they were reaching out to the people that were going to this convention. they were reaching out to people sitting at home.

    Parent
    Don't be so defensive-RUDY was SHRILL too! (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by steviez314 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 05:16:33 AM EST
    And they were all nasty too.

    Hillary did not achieve what she did by being nasty, but by showing that she understood your issues and being a fighter for them.  Obama pivoted towards that at the convention.

    Did anyone hear anything last night that would say to an undecided that Palin or McCain cared about their issues and fight for them?

    No.  It was just the same character based attacks that haven't worked so far.

    So what if it was for the base?  They already have 90+% of them.  That wasn't the place to go.

    The only fear I have is the 15% rule (where, to be kind, 15% of the voters are super-duper low information).  They might actually believe that it wasn't the Republicans who have been in charge of this crappy eceonomy and foreign policy for the past 8 years.

    Jeralyn, I am disappointed in your continued (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by GeekLove08 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 05:54:22 AM EST
    participation in the sexist commentary against Sarah Palin.  Case in point: "I probably would have left off the word 'shrill' but otherwise he's right."  

    Why "probably"?  In what perceivable situation would you have used it, especially, when this was the word used to describe Hillary's voice.  What's next? Palin's cackle?

    I do not support Palin's policy, nor ideology.  But keep this up, and I can't help but sympathize with her.  I am sure that I am not alone.

    Ever since Palin came on the scene, I've been taken aback by the unfairness of your comments and surprised that it was BTD calling for objectivity, fairness and speaking out against the sexism.  I hope this is not a case of women being our own worst enemies.

    Replace 'Sarah' with 'Hillary' (none / 0) (#59)
    by AccidentalTourist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:47:41 AM EST
    and some of these shrill criticisms of Palin from the Left - well, it's like the primaries all over again. "Shrill" - "nasal" - accusing her of using her children as props - it all sounds too familiar.

    I'm new to this site but I too am disappointed. I was expecting much better.

    Parent

    it used to be better (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:11:54 AM EST
    In all fairness, it is a expression (none / 0) (#71)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:26:19 AM EST
    Why "probably
    we all use the expression to point out that it was not a good word to use. On the CNN ticker, there was the headline: Palin was called shrill and sarcastic. When I saw that first thing this morning, I am thinking 'shrill?'. Wrong wrong word to use.  

    Parent
    Thank you Harry - finally a concise statement of (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by ding7777 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:12:54 AM EST
    where and how to attack Palin.

    McCain-Palin administration would mean four more years of failed Bush-Cheney policies

    Enough of the "Palin lacks experience" - What possible experience does Palin need to continue McCain's Bush policies?

    Shrill is (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by mkevinf on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 06:59:07 AM EST
    sexist?  I've heard and seen the word applied to males.  In fact, most of the time I've seen/heard the word, it's been about male politicians.

    This is a political candidate, and while I abhor overt sexist attacks, there is a danger that virtually anything said about Palin, her record, and yes her character will be cast in a similar vein to Bill and Hillary's statements that questioned the press' coverage of Obama and that distorted various statements made by each.

    Examples??? (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by michitucky on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:07:15 AM EST
    Please give one documented expample of a male politician being called shrill???

    Parent
    or good looking (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:23:31 AM EST
    I've called Mitt Romney (none / 0) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:22:03 AM EST
    good looking a number of times. I have no problem with commenting on a politician's looks. It has nothing to do with gender.

    Parent
    We just heard a speech by a Republican (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Rover1 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:36:35 AM EST
    VP candidate that was full of lies (earmarks for Alaska) and flip flops (Bridge to Nowhere) on important issues. Nowhere in it did she ask her party to take any responsibility for the expensive and failed war, the sagging economy and the corruption in government that has poisoned our country for eight years. And all a supposedly liberal blog can do is trash the Democratic candidate and hope that personal dirt will sink Palin and McCain. I come to this blog not only to express my support for Obama/Biden but also to hear what other like-minded people are saying. Apparently I'm in the wrong place.

    so! (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:27:35 AM EST
    when is it that Palin is stepping down?
    is that today or tomorrow?


    LOL I was trying to remember too (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ruffian on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:48:43 AM EST
    Something tells me many Dems spent the spring deluding themselves onto thinking they were watching a tough fight.

    Palin was neither shrill mor nasty-just aggressive and blunt , with a loose hold pm the truth. Just what I expected from a traditional GOP VP candidate, except with more personality .

    Buckle your seatbelts.  

    Buckle your seatbelts (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:49:25 AM EST
    indeed

    Parent
    I believe she's a member (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:17:02 AM EST
    of the Assemblies of God and is a born again Christian. In fact, there's been a flurry of coverage over her attending a service a couple of weeks ago, where the guest pastor was from Jews for Jesus and his remarks about Israel and God's will pertaining to Jews was not politically correct.

    Btw, there are evangelical Catholics..part of the Charismatic Renewal.

    If Obama/Biden want to win... (4.75 / 12) (#1)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:28:04 AM EST
    They have to get back on the POPULIST message and make a concerted appeal to BLUE COLLAR WORKERS, the LUNCH-BUCKET VOTERS that HILLARY captured so effectively.

    And please, DON'T suggest that Hillary do it for them. In January/09, she's not going to be sitting at the desk of the POTUS or VP. They can't be calling her at 3am to ask what to do about Appalachia.

    The guys have to make the sale themselves if we are to believe that they will be able to follow-through if elected. It won't be easy. Yeah, Biden was born in Scranton, PA, but he hasn't lived there since he was 10 years old.

    3am Appalachia? (none / 0) (#146)
    by NealB on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:48:33 AM EST
    I get your gyst, but what are you thinking when you say "they can't be calling her at 3am to ask what to do about Appalachia?" I don't get it.

    Parent
    During the Primaries Obama lost the votes of (none / 0) (#165)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:39:12 PM EST
    Blue collar, lunch bucket, rural voters. Obama had characterized this demographic as "people who get bitter and cling to guns and religion" when they fall on hard times.

    Pundits minimized and stereotyped this demographic and said that Obama had an APPALACHIA problem.

    Obama still isn't appealing to these voters. And BTW; that includes MEN and WOMEN.

    Parent

    I guess my conclusion is that... (none / 0) (#167)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 01:54:08 PM EST
    Going into the GE, the Obama/Biden ticket has more immediate domestic problems with the so-called Appalachia demographic than they do with national security and foreign policy.

    This is a matter of considerable urgency and right now they need to WAKE UP and ANSWER THAT CALL (without any help from Hillary).

    Parent

    what "smears" has the left (3.66 / 3) (#28)
    by cpinva on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 05:21:43 AM EST
    hit gov. palin with? she's a liar, flat out, no contest, no question. it is fact. she claimed to have personally killed off the famed "bridge to nowhere", as part of her reformist, "i don't like earmarks." self proclaimed image. since she wasn't gov. at the time, this would have been impossible.

    she's against choice, *birth control, and believes in "abstinance-only" sex education, if there must be sex education at all.

    *note: to be for "abstinance-only" sex education is, by definition, to be a foe of artificial contraception; you can't be one and not the other, they go hand-in-hand.

    she's been a friend to the oil & gas industry, gladly seeks congressional earmarks, is involved in a legislative ethics investigation, and the fact that alaska is close to russia hardly qualifies her foreign affairs bona fides.

    the last time i checked, gov's of states don't have the constitutional authority to enter into treaties with foreign powers; that's reserved for the president, with the advice and consent of congress.

    where is there a smear in all this?

    with regards to her personal life, it only matters when it negates her public personae. in the case of her daughter, she asked that her child's privacy be respected, then had the kid up on stage with her, along with the also unwed father. she abrogated any right to privacy at that point.

    if, as is rumored, she also had an extra-marital affair, she's shot her religious right-wing evangelical creds also. aside from that, i really don't care who she bangs.

    so, again i ask, where are the "smears"?

    the smears (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:19:14 AM EST
    were the fact that eveyone spent all weekend claiming that her 5 month old son was actualy the son of her teenage daughter.  In order to stop all of that talk, she came out and disclosed the fact that her daughter is pregnant now.

    Isn't that "smeary" enough for you?

    How about all the initial talk in the media about her looks and the way she dresses?

    PLease tell me one example of any politician who didn't have their families on stage with them and at the same time expect people to leave their children alone?

    Remember Chelsea?  Was she on stage with her family in 2000 and 2004?  Did the Clinton (very successfully) ask the media to leave their daughter alone?

    The only reason that Palin announced that her daughter is pregnant is because of all the UGLY rumors that were already being spread.

    Parent

    "everyone"? Really? (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:51:11 AM EST
    sorry, wrong dates (none / 0) (#53)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:36:30 AM EST
    I meant to say wasn't Chelsea on stage with her family in 1992 and 1996.

    Parent
    Not Obama (none / 0) (#121)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:21:10 AM EST
    He was clear about family being off-limits.  That bears repeating......

    Parent
    yes he was very clear (none / 0) (#125)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:23:13 AM EST
    but that won't help him much if everyone else keeps it up anyway.

    Parent
    Zat So? (none / 0) (#164)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 12:59:58 PM EST
    Who has he taken to task for overstepping his limits?  Limits not enforced are not limits at all.

    Parent
    did you just step (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 07:22:38 AM EST
    out of a "time warp" or forget to put a snark at the end of your comment.

    Anything anyone said about Obama during the primaries was called "playing the race card"

    Do you recall "fairytale" being called "racial"?

    Do you recall the 3am ad being called racial?

    Do you recall the Paris Hilton ad being called racial?

    Parent

    Political realignments.... (none / 0) (#12)
    by Oje on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:27:35 AM EST
    With all of the talk this past primary about realignment in the Democratic party, I am beginning to suspect that the Republican and McCain operatives are making a play for political realignment for their party (and the McSame thing maybe will fall flat with important segments of voters).

    Last year, the Republican party failed to find a resolution with their entrenched nativism of their base. It was one of the important schisms that made it seem as if the Republicans (and John McCain) were drifting toward complete failure before the general election. Consequently, I am not sure they had a general election strategy until after the Democratic primary played itself out.

    Palin may be a gimmicky or last minute choice, but maybe in its a larger sense than just one election. Hillary Clinton's voters were often ridiculed as older and working-class women. That demographic label though obscures maybe their brands of feminism. In the 1960s and 1970s, liberal feminism was, as wiki suggests and to my understanding, the mainstream feminism that referenced liberal political philosophy as its origins (and call to mind the "working girl" movies culminating in Melanie Griffith's movie of that name). These are today's voting bloc of older women.

    So, what if John McCain with the Palin selection is trying to peal off a contingent of liberal feminists whose primary concern is "economics", and whose economic ideas are shared by Meg Whitman and Carly Fiorina? It seems to me, television advertisements about abortion and the Supreme Court will not be enough to keep them in the Democratic fold. At a few PUMA sites tonight, there seemed to be a lot of solidarity with Governor Sarah Palin. Thinking of FoxholeAtheist's call for populism above, Obama is going to have to find a particular message that connects with these voters - and these families - more viscerally (than the "historic candidacy" meme will ever secure).

    The female delegates at the RNC (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:31:18 AM EST
    looked very energized by Palin's speech.  Big smiles.  If they are the worker bees on the ground--look out.

    Parent
    i assumed (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by dws3665 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:35:15 AM EST
    it was the scotch.

    Parent
    Wouldn't you expect the Dems. to (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by oculus on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 02:37:35 AM EST
    be better dancers than the GOP delegates?  I didn't see much difference.  All bad.

    Parent
    Oje, the concerns of 1970s feminists (none / 0) (#23)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:20:11 AM EST
    are MUCH broader in scope than "economic issues"; and the GOP is NOT their next main squeeze.

    I'll save extended details for another post.

    Parent

    The concerns of the 1970's (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:17:42 AM EST
    feminists are the ones that Hillary pointed out in her speech in China. Women's rights are basic human rights. Women have a right to expect respect, and lack of respect for women is really at the base of feminism and economics. The roles traditionally filled by women are not respected so they do not carry much economic weight, if any at all. When women enter fields that have been traditionally male, their contributions are not respected so their paychecks are smaller for the same job.  No, not all of our issues are economic, but if the economic issues were addressed, many of the other issues would fade. If women could afford health care for themselves and their children, it would still be a problem that much medical research leaves women out, but at least they would have access to the health care that is available. The current political climate has shown that there is still a definite lack of respect for women. The frat boy mentality on the blogs and in the MSM is just one symptom. Whether the more woman-friendly platform of the Democrats coupled with bad behavior toward women or the not-very-woman-friendly Republican platform coupled with much more respectful behavior will win the 1970's feminists' votes remains to be seen. I do know that telling us how we should vote is not a good idea. We'll figure it out for ourselves, thank you.

    Parent
    I know... (none / 0) (#162)
    by Oje on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 12:13:04 PM EST
    But, I am thinking more about the "popular culture" of feminism more so than the work of its intellectual and political leaders, even for women who never self identified as feminist but acted economically in ways that feminists championed. The ethic to me was very much that a woman had just as much individual ability as a man, and the earliest kinds of advances (even in the writing of history) were compensatory -- to demonstrate that a woman could do it, or strong women who did (again, thinking of a movie culture, Norma Rae, Karen Silkwood, etc.)

    Palin's abortion position comes front and center when we think about her positions on "women's issues," but I have to admit that I am fascinated by her membership in a group called Feminists for Life. They seem to have shared support with other feminists on a few legislative actions in the economic sphere (ERA, Family Leave).

    Kay Buchanan on CNN (?) railed against "feminists" as the ones attacking Palin, but I thought (like much of the RNC and Left blog discourses) that that prism from the 1980s as a means to understanding Palin was wrong.

    This rightwing Alaskan woman seems to have willingly self-identified as a feminist at some point in her life (and today?). What if she also has some cultural queues or gestures that signal a kind of solidarity with working women who have the equality ethic, but not an academic education in women's studies? This idea of "breaking the glass ceiling" is (and has become) an "issue" this cycle despite the fact that the Democratic leadership, Obama, and the left blogs do not want to name it as such.

    Parent

    Oje, thanks for your thoughtful analysis. (none / 0) (#24)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 04:21:22 AM EST
    GOP Messages Seems Contradictory (none / 0) (#29)
    by john horse on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 05:52:41 AM EST
    Message #1: McCain can work across the aisle with Democrats to get things done.

    Message#2: The leader of the Senate Democrats can't stand McCain.

    How is that. (none / 0) (#160)
    by pettyfog on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:41:37 AM EST
    ..contradictory?

    You think MCCain and Ted Stevens are buddies... you think Stevens  loves Palin? He's scared to death of her.  

    You think we conservatives liked Stevens and Young?  We want them thrown out!
    OR maybe even sent to jail.
    Search some bigger RW blogs!
    Stevens is holding on by his fingernails and the 'natives' who liked him as a 'cash-cow' are realizing they cant be for Palin and Stevens at the same time.

    Parent

    Ooops.. (2.00 / 1) (#161)
    by pettyfog on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:46:50 AM EST
    sorry... i hit post too soon.
    Now let's get to Reid.

    Who pulls his strings?  George Soros, ya think, maybe?  Who has invested in Alt.Energy much?

    Why not drill... it's not congresses buck!  No we cant drill out of it.. but we cant 'plug-in' our way out of it, either.  Pay attention to T Boone on this... he says do ecverything, because he stands to make millions while we drill and do alt.energy.

    So why do Harry and Nancy resist? All they have to do is stop subsidizing oil companies in any way shape or form!

    Parent

    My co-workers (none / 0) (#68)
    by lilburro on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:22:15 AM EST
    are over the moon about Palin's speech.  She made a good impression with her energy.  And at some level that's all it takes in politics.

    We need to ratchet up the attacking and the passion about changing this country on our side.  Reid's statement doesn't cut it.  The Republicans just had an improbably successful week.  It's time for us to really expose them for the dangerous fools they are.

    Alaskan Independence Party (none / 0) (#69)
    by bison on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:24:17 AM EST
    Was she wearing an Alaskan First Flag pin?

    wrong speech (none / 0) (#70)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:25:37 AM EST
    Great presentation, confident, articulate and mean spirited.  Wrong speech though.  Goes again to how out of touch they are with the problems facing our people.  Jobs and economy.  She didn't write the speech so I am hard pressed to lend any credit other than she is a very good public speaker.  What will be very interesting is how much she can soak up regarding policy in two weeks.  As Americans look for work and struggle to pay their bills and suffer through high energy prices, it is insulting to hear 3 hours of national security speech when it is widely reported that we are less safe as a result of the policies of this administration.  I cannot wait for the debates if she really is a pit bull with lipstick it will be fun to watch Biden and her go at it.  If she is as quick witted as her speechwriters she may eat Biden up.  HRC on the other hand would have cut her to pieces but I digress....

    Biden and Reid called Palin "shrill" (none / 0) (#74)
    by Exeter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:29:54 AM EST
    By definition shrill means something that is "high pitched" -- therefore it almost always used in the perjorative to describe women-- it is therefore a sexist term.  

    Unfortunate and disapointing-- especially since Palin's speech was markedly NOT "shrill."

    the best part (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:32:38 AM EST
    the VERY best part, was the look on Olbermans face.
    I forced myself to watch MSNBC for a while after the speech.
    and that look, like his passing of a brick was imminent, well, that was just one of those moments things that makes life worth living.

    Parent
    I can't watch msnbc anymore... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Exeter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:35:10 AM EST
    I watched PBS last night w/Mark Shields and company.  It was pretty good coverage.

    Parent
    you missed a great show (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:41:29 AM EST
    Tweety actually got it.  I was surprised.
    but Olberman and Maddow.  they looked like they were going to need therapy.

    Parent
    Correction: Biden did NOT call her shrill (none / 0) (#77)
    by Exeter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:34:02 AM EST
    I started looking forward (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:43:34 AM EST
    to the VP debate last night.
    that, I suspect, is going to be something to see.

    Parent
    that's right (none / 0) (#97)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:59:17 AM EST
    Biden called her "good looking".  Just the compliment all feminists are looking for.

    Parent
    We don't mind being told (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:06:09 AM EST
    we're good looking as long as you acknowledge that we're smart,too. And look me in the eye before you let your eyes wander elsewhere, OK?

    Parent
    I'm pretty sure (none / 0) (#104)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:07:35 AM EST
    Biden's quote didn't mention anything about her intelligence.

    Parent
    but what did it mean? really? (none / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:10:20 AM EST
    it was a stupendously stupid thing to say.
    Tom Ridge is pretty good looking.  would he have said that about him?


    Parent
    probably didn't mean (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:16:48 AM EST
    anymore than when Biden called Obama "clean and articulate", but that didn't go over real well, did it?

    Parent
    Saying someone is "good looking" (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Exeter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:26:36 AM EST
    is not, per se, sexist... but referring to a woman that is the governor of a state and is making a historical bid to become the first female vice president as "good looking" is sexist and offensive.  Just as it was offensive when he called Obama "clean."

    Parent
    what about that (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:28:00 AM EST
    is difficult to understand?

    Parent
    do you generally (none / 0) (#118)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:19:03 AM EST
    refer to male candidates as "good looking"?
    I sometimes do but Im gay.
    surely people are smart enough to know how this sounds to women.

    Parent
    January 20, 2016? (none / 0) (#85)
    by tootired on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:45:49 AM EST
    Or will she be "stepping up"?

    excellent question (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:48:48 AM EST
    I would be a lot more worried about Hillary running against her than I would be worried about her running aginst McCain.

    Parent
    at Republico (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:47:49 AM EST
    Roger Simon gets it:

    Why the media should apologize
    By ROGER SIMON | 9/4/08 12:15 AM EST

    ST. PAUL, Minn. -- On behalf of the media, I would like to say we are sorry.

    On behalf of the elite media, I would like to say we are very sorry.

    We have asked questions this week that we should never have asked.

    Just keep on this track.. (none / 0) (#91)
    by pettyfog on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:50:16 AM EST
    .. and you delude yourself.
    I'm a conservative and I first came on here AFTER Hillary adjusted her approach, began the populist approach, and the Obamabots began to shred her.  
    I had NEVER liked Hillary before I did.

    hit gov. palin with? she's a liar, flat out, no contest, no question. it is fact. she claimed to have personally killed off the famed "bridge to nowhere", as part of her reformist, "i don't like earmarks." self proclaimed image. since she wasn't gov. at the time, this would have been impossible.

    Yeah... you hit her with that!   Because there's a lot of people are going to look at timelines and see the lie in it.

    I'm gonna lay it out for you:
    She was a typical small town pol who worked in the good old boy network,  She asked for and got earmarks, meaning she was EFFECTIVE!

    When term limit approached she ran for Lt Gov and lost. The machine rewarded her with a pat on the head and a spot on the Oil/Gas commission.

    She took her job seriously and her real political career began.

    Now DO NOT take that part lightly.  NOW she was ready to take on her new personna.  She got a lot of good ol boys kicked out.

    She was no longer part of the machine.

    The Bridge is nothing... she was for it, and then she looked at it. From 250M orig to 400M to serve 50,000 people!!!!!  What would you want her to do?  Even the articles cited had her explain to those people that they'd have to settle for something else.

    The 'Abuse of Power' thing is likely going nowhere. The BIL is a redneck THUG, it's all on record. What 'influence' was exerted was what any concerned family member might have done./ But her version is that some family might have talked to this Moneghan guy, but he was reassigned and refused the reassignemnt.. he wasnt performing!!

    She has political ENEMIES.  What do political ENEMIES do?

    If there was anything to all this, I guarantee you she would not have 80% approval in her state.
    I know... I live in Ohio, and the last Gov, {GOP} had a 40% approval among Rep voters BEFORE he got hit with scandal then it went to 20, overall in single digits.

    So you guys just keep drinking that replicator kool-aid {see stargate tv series} and act like Obama-bots.

    Put it this way... Obama had this election locked! none of us cared much for McCain, we didnt trust him.
    HE kept saying he moved right but we dont believe him:
    McCain/Feingold - handing George Soros the keys to campaign funding
    McCain/Kennedy

    yadayada

    McCain did what he had to do to even have a chance. Now he does.
    Obama's still ahead, though and I have no delusions on whether she can pull it out for him

    WE DO hope you keep deluding yourself with  that flip-flop thing, though. Keep tellign yourself she's claiming International experience because AL is next to Russia... why not look that up?
    Keep tellign yourself she's in Oil's pocket.

    The more you do the more you push for a definitive response that bases on facts.

    My favorite quote of the last week:
    From unnamed dem:
    "Putting Palin in a debate with Biden will be like backing Howdy Doody in a knifefight"

    I think so too.

    I think so too (none / 0) (#94)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:52:05 AM EST
    really?
    meet me here the day after.
    k?

    Parent
    ..and Biden (none / 0) (#98)
    by pettyfog on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    will get his strings cut.

    I cannot WAIT for that debate!  I hope you guys watched her eyes closely. She wont need a script, she wont need a moderator helper. Best format -for Palin- would be freeflowing, each brings up a topic, exposits.. the other replies.

    Parent

    I misread your comment I think (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:08:16 AM EST
    I thought you were saying Palin was Howdy(heh) Doody.
    if you were referring to Biden I am with you.
    she is going to eat Bidens lunch I fear.  how do you go after someone like her?
    I saw only one person last night, the vile Roland Martin, recommending that tactic.
    I am sure the McCain campaign is saying "bring it on"

    Parent
    um (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:21:21 AM EST
    I thought we were talking about calling her "good looking".
    who said he cant go after her? not me.


    Parent
    How do you deal with her? (none / 0) (#124)
    by pettyfog on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:23:06 AM EST
    You have to hope that McCain's campaign is stupid as Obama's and MAKES her run from a powerpoint.

    I dont think she will and I think after a few Sunday TV talk shows, MCCain's going to let her run free.
    She is not stupid and she's a quick study and I THINK she knows how to couch what she knows and doesnt know.

    Parent

    ok (none / 0) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:50:40 AM EST
    let me just say it.
    I think that was one of the best conventions speeches I have ever heard.
    period.


    Why? (none / 0) (#95)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:55:07 AM EST
    It was filled with attack, lies, sarcasm and condescension with an side of family, hockey, family, and finally a dash of..family.

    Parent
    because it was deadly (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 08:59:08 AM EST
    effective.  that is why antidepressant stock is going up today.
    that way she has of sticking the stiletto in with that million dollar smile.  
    for the slow readers - I am not saying I agreed with a word she said.
    but I am not going to denigrate the effort just to be a sheep.

    Parent
    yes (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ccpup on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:30:15 AM EST
    it was deadly effective and, as I've said repeatedly, on the stump this woman will be a very, very effective campaigner for John McCain.

    I do not agree with her positions and will never in a million bazillion katrillion years vote for a Republican ticket.  But I can recognize and give props to a talented politician and Sarah Palin is definitely that.

    Team Obama BETTER be changing their game plan.  The next two months will be a tough slog convincing voters that McCain-Palin, with their respective histories as reformers in their Party, are Bush III.  Just saying so ain't gonna cut it anymore.  

    Obama's going to have to step up and offer more than rhetoric and platitudes and promises of Change now that his opponents have a RECORD of REALLY changing things.

    The crowds at McCain-Palin events may actually start rivaling those at Obama-Biden's!  Who would have predicted that a month ago?!?!?

    Parent

    selective amnesia (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:15:08 AM EST
    which speeches at the dem convention last week weren't filled with attacks, sarcasm and condescension on republicans?  That's kind of the point of a partisan convention isn't it?

    I won't address the "lies" part of your position because I think most politicians "stretch" the truth but at the same time leave themselves enough wiggle room plausible deniability at a later date.  And, since you didn't specify a list of lies, it's hard to talk about.

    There is one I can discuss.  It was the repub claim that Obama will raise taxes.  And, yes he will.  But, the dems counter with the argument that Obama will only raise taxes on those earning more than $250,000.  Except the dems leave out the part where Obama plans to increase the taxes on dividends from its current 15% up to somewhere between 20 and 28%.  Many, many people in this country earning LESS than $250,000 do have dividend income and will see their taxes increase.  So, both side are telling the "part ofthe story" that makes things look best for them.  But, neither side is willing to tell the "full story".

    Parent

    I didnt use this response because (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:17:50 AM EST
    I consider it so obvious.  but you are correct.
    I guess it needs to be said.  
    sadly.

    Parent
    The Republican speakers last (none / 0) (#127)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:24:30 AM EST
    night engaged in a level of snideness and sarcasm that was unmatched by last week's Democratic convention. Don't you remember the weeping and gnashing of teeth by the pundits during the Democratic convention that the Dems were going too soft and too John Kerry, that they needed to attack more? Obama's speech was masterful because he finally contrasted the Democratic policies and platform to the Republicans. He was pretty civilized compared to The Lord of the Flies exercise in politics we saw last night.

    Working class and lower middle class people can only DREAM of having dividends. You remind me of Charlie Gibson questioning Obama about Charlie's tax rate going up during that 'debate'.

    Parent

    you know what (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:34:08 AM EST
    I didn't express approval or disapproval of Obama's tax plan.  I simply pointed out some FACTS that can be used to counter each sides claims of lies.

    Even though McCain doesn't want to admit it, Obama's tax plan would MOSTLY raise taxes on the wealthy.

    Even though Obama doesn't want to admit it, his tax plan does NOT only raise taxes on those earning over $250,000

    I seem to recall Hillary getting in quite a few zingers last week against the repugs and everyong praising her for it.  And, I was among those praising her.  Now that the shoe is on,the partisans can't see the value of a repub doing the same thing.

    People have spent every day from her name being announced up til her speech belittling her in any way they could think of.  And now, when she throws some of it back at them, they find it to be in bad form.

    Parent

    I don't recall mentioning Hillary. (none / 0) (#143)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:39:52 AM EST
    I was responding to you. I wasn't thinking about Senator Clinton.

    Parent
    In addition (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:47:11 AM EST
    to responding to your comments about taxes, I also included a response to your first sentence by pointing out that the same type of things existed in Clinton's speech at the dem convention.

    Parent
    ok. thank you. (none / 0) (#148)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:51:52 AM EST
    question (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:27:06 AM EST
    have you ever watched a political convention before?

    Parent
    Ahh, thus he spake from his lofty heights (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:37:28 AM EST
    dripping in smugness and sarcasm...

    If you can't answer me in a substantive way, spare me the ole Republican patronizing act. In fact, spare me your patronizing, period. I have no patience for it.

    Parent

    but have you ever watched a (none / 0) (#149)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:56:28 AM EST
    political convention before?

    Parent
    many..spanning the decades. (none / 0) (#151)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:35:48 AM EST
    ok?

    Parent
    terrific (none / 0) (#155)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:05:11 AM EST
    then you SHOULD know what happens at them.


    Parent
    I should ask the same question of you (none / 0) (#157)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:17:49 AM EST
    since you were the one so taken with Palin's speech..lauding it at the top of convention speeches.
    Have you watched other conventions because if you had you see that her wondrous speech was run of the mill red meat Republican fare. Even BTD, thought so.

    Parent
    Yeah but it was (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by TomRusso on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:18:22 AM EST
    attacks, lies, sarcasm and condescension directed at Barack Obama.  That's why Howdy reveled in it.

    Parent
    are you incapable of admitting (none / 0) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:20:17 AM EST
    what a great performance that was.
    I find rather amusing.  and I dont really care what you think.

    Parent
    Then give a listen to early Pat Buchanan (none / 0) (#130)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:27:13 AM EST
    during is convention speech. You'll swoon.

    Parent
    'his' (none / 0) (#131)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:27:43 AM EST
    youre funny (none / 0) (#134)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:29:18 AM EST
    my sympathies

    Parent
    See my earlier response to you (none / 0) (#144)
    by byteb on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:43:47 AM EST
    it's still applicable.

    Parent
    We need to really emphasize (none / 0) (#110)
    by lilburro on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:13:54 AM EST
    that the Republicans have no plans.  Get it back to the economy and HEALTH INSURANCE.  Character assassination has failed and made us look like fools.  Time to get it together.  I feel like I am repeating myself, but I cannot even believe this sh*t.  

    I agree (none / 0) (#140)
    by ccpup on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:33:56 AM EST
    But switching to the Issues now won't necessarily make people forget the Character Assassination.  

    And, if you're a voter who's sick of Old Politics and had expected more from Obama (even via his surrogates or supporters) and his New Politics, the Character Assassination may have lost your vote.  So, now that you're tuned out, it's an uphill battle -- even WITH issues -- to get you back.

    Parent

    I don't think we will lose votes (none / 0) (#153)
    by lilburro on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:45:14 AM EST
    directly because people don't like the Character Assassination of Palin.  I don't think people will care too much about that in and of itself.  I think it is just incredibly distracting and allows the election to be about Palin's character rather than the issues or even the character of Obama/Biden.  

    Parent
    the less focus on Obama, (none / 0) (#154)
    by ccpup on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:03:20 AM EST
    the greater the chance that McCain-Palin will be able to more effectively paint themselves as Reformers and decidedly NOT Bush III, one of the cornerstones of Team Obama's strategy.

    As for losing votes, I don't believe it'd be by a margin that would be considered a landslide.  But I do suspect if Obama finds himself defending or even having to comment on overtly (or even covertly) sexist statements made about his opponent, it has the potential to lead on-the-fence voters to assume HE, somehow, was making those statements, even if he wasn't.  And it's easy for on-the-fence to suddenly, even irrevocably land in the McCain column.

    That's in no way a win for Obama ... or for the Democrats.  

    Parent

    She was a Pentecostal (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:18:16 AM EST
    for all her life until recently. She has recently joined another Evangelical Church.

    The Pentecostals are among the most fundamentalist Evangelicals.  They are principally known for "speaking in tongues."

    She is the Evenglicals' dream come true as a candidate.  Being mean too is perfect.  They get a devoted soldier in the culture wars.

    actually just googled it (none / 0) (#122)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:21:12 AM EST
    I found a source that says she was baptised a Catholic, but left the church and joined a pentecostal church because they allowed women to be pastors and Catholics didn't.  

    Parent
    At what age? (none / 0) (#133)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:28:13 AM EST
    She was quite young I believe.....

    And Pentecostals as feminists?....That is some creative spin....They are the fundamentalists of the fundamentalists.....

    If she wanted a church that allowed women clergy, she could have picked the Episcopal Church which long ago allowed women priests and would be a comfortable fit for a Catholic, their liturgies being quite similar.

    Parent

    Many pentecostal (none / 0) (#138)
    by frenly on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:32:41 AM EST
    denominations have always allowed women clergy.  It isn't at all unusual

    Parent
    You miss my point (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:48:51 AM EST
    Aside from allowing women clergy, Pentecostals are so fundamentalist that calling them feminist is a misnomer.....They believe in Biblical inerrancy.  Eve was created as a help meet for Adam, from his rib.....6000 years ago.

    No to choice, no to sex education, no to all kinds of things.....and yes to a very literalistic reading of the Bible....So much on earth is evil including all things progressive and liberal and the culture and government generally. Reason and science are not big attractions...

    They get their name from the Pentecost described in Acts, where the Spirit descended on the Apostles and those present and they were overcome with religious fervor and began speaking in tongues....Speaking in tongues is their trademark, and if you have ever seen their services you would never forget it.  Right out of Daniel Day-Lewis's oscar winning performance in There Will Be Blood.

    I have posted untold comments here generally supportive of religion and Evangelicals....Pentecostals are very, very socially conservative.....  

    Parent

    BTD-- We NEED You! Please come back! (none / 0) (#137)
    by Exeter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:30:17 AM EST
    You are a voice that is heard in the room that is the left blogosphere.  An important voice.  And it only takes one voice in a room to change minds and make a difference.  Please come back!

    hes back (none / 0) (#139)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 09:33:06 AM EST
    up there^

    Parent
    So far neither campaign has a real theme (none / 0) (#150)
    by esmense on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:05:23 AM EST
    No "New Deal." No "New Frontier." No "Bridge to the 21st Century". Not even a "Thousand Points of Light" or "Compassionate Conservatism" expressed in specific, new policies, good or bad, like "No Child Left Behind" and "The Faith Based Initiative."

    Obama's "change," as outlined in his acceptance speech, sounds like a Clinton 3rd term plus a lot of repair work -- more cops, more teachers, more taxes on the rich, clean up the wars and mend relationships with allies. All necessary and good, but not the same thing as a positive, inspiring vision of a future America needs, deserves, and will be challenged and helped to achieve, in new and specific ways, by his administration. He didn't provide a unique vision or tell us why THESE SPECIFIC times call for, and allow for, persuing his vision. Except in terms of  biography, he is running as a generic Democrat, not a new kind of "Obama Democrat."

    McCain's "reform" as expressed so far, is just the usual anti-Washington rant. I doubt if his speech tonight will change that. He is running for Bush's 3rd term -- but campaigning on his personal biography and as a Nixon/Goldwater/Reagan Westerner who will "shake up" the effete Eastern establishment. A story we certainly have all heard before. Palin's speech was a perfect, well-executed example of the genre.

    With no new, positive ideas, with personal biography so important, this campaign can't help but be all about personal attacks and recycled partisan sniping.

    It looks like no one in either party really wanted to cross the "Bridge to the 21st Century." At least not in terms of campaigning.

    McCain/Palin '08--Alaska First! n/t (none / 0) (#163)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    Jeralyn, OT but I thought about your removal (none / 0) (#152)
    by nycvoter on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 10:41:37 AM EST
    of the ban on Palin's family because she had the boyfriend come to the convention.  I'm having a hard time with it, are Obama's kids fair game (granted I doubt the have scandals) just because he had them on stage?  Weren't they props?  Are the family pictures always props?

    Bumpersticker...... (none / 0) (#158)
    by pixpixpix on Thu Sep 04, 2008 at 11:19:29 AM EST
    What's wrong with this picture??

    WASHINGTON IS BROKEN
    RE-ELECT THE REPUBLICANS