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A Sense Of Entitlement

With friends like Leon Panetta, Barack Obama is not going to need many enemies:

"There is a sense of entitlement that almost seems to be inbred. They are convinced Hillary is the one who should be assuming the mantle and it's tough to crack that."

Everyone knows I think PUMA's are um, wrongheaded, to put it nicely, but then again I am not a high profile Democrat. Here's the thing, Panetta seems to think Obama is entitled to the support of these folks. The sense of entitlement seems to be his. That is the attitude Obama must absolutely avoid now.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Talk about poor choice of words (5.00 / 12) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:06:25 PM EST
    what in the h*ell does he mean by "inbred"?

    Hmm, let me think of the places where Obama didn't do well. . .

    The elites vs. the inbreds (5.00 / 6) (#3)
    by standingup on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:10:13 PM EST
    Who has more votes to cast?

    [ Parent ]
    The whole thing (5.00 / 21) (#4)
    by Fabian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:10:23 PM EST
    is a poor choice of words.

    You'd think they'd be on bended knee, offering flowers and chocolates instead of handing out one way tickets for the Straight Talk Express.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm beginning to (4.95 / 20) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:12:58 PM EST
    believe that the Dems actually want to lose this election. Or that they are really that craven and clueless. Take your pick I guess.

    Not a one of them seems to think that perhaps Obama needs to get up off his butt and do some work do they?

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know where you got your definition (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:29:38 PM EST
    but the number one definition at American Heritage Dictionary is:
    inbred
    1. produced as a result of inbreeding

    [ Parent ]
    For those of us without Aspergers, (4.00 / 4) (#79)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:50:56 PM EST
    connotation matters.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh for heaven's sake (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by standingup on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:12:50 PM EST
    This coming from a supporter of a campaign that can find code racist terms in virtually any spoken term?  How many of us can make a statement that we believe Obama is arrogant without being called racists?    

    Here is a suggestion, don't use a term that could be mistaken as meaning something other than intended.  

    [ Parent ]

    No (5.00 / 2) (#182)
    by standingup on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:56:11 PM EST
    Panetta is willfully obtuse in his "inartful" use of terms.  The primaries became a pissing match on who could take the most offensive context of a term used.  In this overcharged atmosphere of looking for the racist in every statement, you don't dare screw up by using such a loaded term as "inbred."  

    [ Parent ]
    Of course, he no doubt did not mean (5.00 / 9) (#123)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:15:15 PM EST
    for it to be heard that way.

    But again, communication is about how a message is received, not just intent as it was sent.

    Communication is like football.  No matter how good the QB, receivers matter, too.

    And especially so in politics.  Panetta threw a bad pass.  And no resort to rulebooks fixes that in football, either.

    [ Parent ]

    So you're fighting with us about it because. . .? (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:27:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    10 comments per day (none / 0) (#175)
    by waldenpond on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:52:39 PM EST
    New commenters are limited to 10 comments per day.  You are at 22.  Thanks.

    [ Parent ]
    Just 10 comments (none / 0) (#201)
    by waldenpond on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:10:30 PM EST
    Since you only posted one comment on July 22, this is only your 3rd day of commenting.  I'll check with Jeralyn as to what she wants to do, but still just 10 comments per day until you hit 30.  Sorry.  

    [ Parent ]
    Now, see, using the word "prejudiced" (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:08:46 PM EST
    about us message receivers is yet another example of not being persuasive.

    No wonder you don't get how Panetta got off to a bad start with this line.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you (none / 0) (#185)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:58:26 PM EST
    but I suspect you take a different approach with respect to race issues so I wouldn't say you're being daft, I'd say you're being hypocritical.

    If I'm wrong about how you would take a different approach on other issues please feel free to correct me on that.

    [ Parent ]

    When resort to a dictionary is required (5.00 / 11) (#36)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:31:40 PM EST
    the message is not communicated well.

    (Yes, this group knows the difference in the denotative meanings.  But we also know that connotations count.)

    [ Parent ]

    You are apparently unaware of the (5.00 / 9) (#94)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:57:48 PM EST
    months long evil Appalachian theme.

    You're not going to pull a Scalia on this and get away with it. Context and connotation are essential, even if you personally don't (or refuse to) understand what others are talking about.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, in a political campaign (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:26:33 PM EST
    you reap what you sow.

    [ Parent ]
    You are not entitled to any response (4.33 / 6) (#151)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:31:18 PM EST
    beyond what I choose to give you.

    And now I just think you're a time-wasting troll.

    Bye.

    [ Parent ]

    You have a good point, IMO (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by flashman on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:53:10 PM EST
    The constant twisting and parsing of words has reach the level of absudity.  You are correct to not allow your imination run wild and connect dots that aren't there.  But noble deeds go not unpunished.  At least some can still think for theirselved.

    [ Parent ]
    he didn't mean (5.00 / 11) (#153)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:31:54 PM EST
    inbreeding any more than Bill meant "fairytale", than Hillary meant to have Obama assasinated, than Cuomo meant shuck & Jive in a racial way, any more than the 3am ad was about race, or that "roll of the dice" was racial etc, etc

    It all depends on who gets to interpret and what they want to accomplish by it....

    [ Parent ]

    Right (5.00 / 3) (#184)
    by flashman on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:56:28 PM EST
    And we have better things to do besides twisting every little word or phrase into something it is not.  Honestly, it's a common, everyday idiom.  I don't know when I've witnessed such an effort to distort, that didn't come from the dark side.

    [ Parent ]
    WLPRM (5.00 / 7) (#45)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:36:53 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ha. Wonderful. :-) (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:38:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Does anyone still wonder (5.00 / 6) (#127)
    by standingup on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:16:21 PM EST
    why Democrats lose?

    [ Parent ]
    Deliverance. (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:53:46 PM EST
    But, what's w/all these former Clinton administration mucky-mucks dissing Hillary Clinton?  Another excellent topic for post-election research and writing.

    [ Parent ]
    If by that he means (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:55:07 PM EST
    they have a deeply held belief that Hillary deserves the nomination...I agree!

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah. Me too. I'm not a PUMA (5.00 / 12) (#125)
    by derridog on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:15:40 PM EST
    but I completely support what they are doing. They have the right to their political opinions and one of them is that "I own my own vote."   No one can expect other people to vote for them just because they'll be really MAD if you don't and will call you names. If Obama wants people to vote for him, he has to make the case that he is the best candidate. He has to speak to people's needs and values.  It is HIS job to sell himself, not THEIR job to recognize his immense wonderfulness, in spite of  very legitimate doubts and concerns that he does nothing but exacerbate with his behavior.

    It is this kind of arrogance on the part of Obama and his supporters, not to mention the stacked deck against Hillary in the primaries on the part of the DNC, that causes PUMA voters to stand up and speak out.

    More power to them! If the Obamaites had been treated as Hillary and her supporters were treated in this primary, they'd be up in arms and planning their assault on Denver as we speak.

    [ Parent ]

    Where are all of Obama's NuDem voters anyway? (5.00 / 7) (#159)
    by Ellie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    Speaking just for me -- I love that phrase :-) -- I moved on shortly after Rahm's idiotic "knitting" comment. Why are the kingmakers even bothering with this crap?

    Part of what had the two-headed Dean-a Brazile creature (the Filliam H. Muffman of politics) popping its buttons was the cavalry of voters that rendered HRC supportes (among other sizeable chunks of voters) irrelevant.

    Where are they?

    All Team Obama needed to wheeze over the nomination finish line was the huuuuuuuge cavalry of first-time voters fleshed out by AA voters and a motley crew of Creative Class fauxgressives and indulgent CDS haters jumping at the chance to enjoy open season on the Dems' menace du jour.

    I can only assume this flogging is meant to make the Dems look more like the "winning" GOP.

    Otherwise, it's baffling as a strategy and it only underscores my realization that this party neither understands nor appreciates what they've driven away to puff up an empty suit and towering ego for short term gain.

    Hope the Feminist Lawn Jockeys play well with the hard right, movement conservatives Team Obama expects will swoon over The One's charisma.

    My bitterly knitted freeway SUCK IT sign should be done by Nov.

    [ Parent ]

    That's Obama's Term (none / 0) (#92)
    by BDB on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:57:16 PM EST
    Didn't use "inbred" at one point?  

    [ Parent ]
    He used bred (none / 0) (#114)
    by Fitz on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:09:29 PM EST
    Here´s what Obama had to say during a Philadelphia sports radio interview: "But she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn´t know, you know, there´s a reaction that´s been bred in our experiences that don´t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that´s just the nature of race in our society."


    [ Parent ]
    Not The Quote I Meant (none / 0) (#126)
    by BDB on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:16:10 PM EST
    I'll see if I can find it.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama (5.00 / 20) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:09:38 PM EST
    has had the sense of entitlement for months now. He was owed the Dem nomination. Now he seems to think that he's owed the Presidency.

    The problem with people like Panetta is that they don't realize what the real problem is. The problem is Obama. Hillary's voters don't like the fact that he's not qualified, waffles and can't speak clearly to name a few.

    I so have a sense of entitlement... (5.00 / 30) (#11)
    by Shainzona on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:16:54 PM EST
    to own my vote.  And I intend on doing just that.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh - I meant I will not ever vote... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Shainzona on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:09:39 PM EST
    for Obama - that is my vote, even if it means staying home.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#64)
    by Josey on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:45:40 PM EST
    >>>He was saying that Clinton supporters seem to think that there is an entitlement for Hillary to "be assuming the mantle".

    [ Parent ]
    Have you noticed (5.00 / 21) (#15)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:21:58 PM EST
    that Obama's ads don't say:

    "Obama FOR president"

    Instead they say:

    Obama. President.

    Of course, if you call the missing word "for" presumptuous, you're a bad person.

    My husband keeps saying, "gee if he loses this election, his will be the shortest presidency ever."

    [ Parent ]

    SO FUNNY! (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Shainzona on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:23:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Your husband's a hoot (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:28:24 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    John Kerry ... (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Inky on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:36:37 PM EST
    did the same thing, as I recall. His campaign plane was painted with the words: "John Kerry President."

    That certainly worked out well.

    [ Parent ]

    Obama is following "The Secret" (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by angie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:01:05 PM EST
    his GE plan exposed! /s

    [ Parent ]
    I think he was promised it (5.00 / 9) (#30)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:29:08 PM EST
    by hook or by crook, as the saying goes, by the Kennedy/Kerry machine and Dean/Brazile/Pelosi DNC cabal.

    So of course, he thinks he's owed it.

    [ Parent ]

    "I can get all her voters, (5.00 / 21) (#6)
    by angie on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:13:29 PM EST
    but she can't get mine."

    So HE spoke it, so it SHALL BE. Weren't those inbred cretins paying attention!?!?! /s

    A classic (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:30:20 PM EST
    nothing presumptuous about that!  No way!

    [ Parent ]
    You have graduated :) (5.00 / 19) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:16:04 PM EST
    I'm am sometimes wrongheaded, but I'm never nuts because the one time my spousal called me nuts I said fine......I'll show you nuts, and he never called me that again :)  Nobody is entitled to anyone's vote and that is what I don't understand about this approaching convention and the bitterness shared by so many of us.  Obama can earn my vote but everytime he makes one move in that direction he seems to soon after make two more moves in the direction of not getting my vote.  He keeps sidelining major Dem leaders and thinkers like some sort of spoiled petulant child.  It's getting to be more than I can deal with period.  He's giving off the fumes of some sort of ego addict where only he can be the "One" like some sort of new Jesus or something.  Only he can be the way to our salvation.  It almost makes me retch.

    Hmmm (5.00 / 11) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:16:12 PM EST
    Not only are PUMAs 'inbred' (code for white trash) they also have a 'sense of entitlement' ;-).  White trash with a sense of entitlement.  Now there's a new class of voters (and an oxymoron too!).

    LOL!  And I know I'm distorting what he said with that whole "code word" thing, but it's because I find him so amusing.  And isn't everything a code word these days? And I'm also chuckling because I'm giddy with relief that someone is bashing PUMA's without talking about grief.  LOL!

    And true, some think PUMAs are "um, wrongheaded," but others think it's wrongheaded to tacitly support what happened in the primary, because it's horrible for Democrats and Democracy in the long-term.  So I guess that makes the two groups even-steven.

    And FYI to anyone who doesn't already know, I'm no longer a PUMA.  Maybe I will be again, when they stop with the pipe dream that Hillary will win the nomination after all.  That ship has sailed -- and sunk.  It's too ridiculous to even talk about.

    I have accepted that HRC won't get... (5.00 / 18) (#16)
    by Shainzona on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:22:12 PM EST
    the nomination or the VP.

    But I am still a PUMA - because my membership was not based on that - I knew the fix was in by last March.

    So my PUMA membership - and for many many others - is based on the lack of experience for the candidate to whom this nomination has been handed - not earned.

    So, welcome back Teresa, we're happy to have you with us once again when you want to be back in touch.

    [ Parent ]

    On some of the issues I am PUMA (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:22:14 PM EST
    as a whole though I would say PUMAish describes me better, Obama could have always gotten me if he had ever truly considered uniting the clans.  Everytime though he gave me pause to think I could vote for him he always followed that up with a face plant of some sort.

    [ Parent ]
    That's pretty much where I am (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by cawaltz on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:31:13 PM EST
    I'm pretty reasonable and certainly don't WANT to cut off my nose to spite my face. That said, if they can't give me at least a couple of GOOD reasons to vote for him then I may just see his campaign run as a cancerous growth that MUST be removed for the good of said face.

    I'm just praying it ain't Kaine. I will HATE having to run against the ticket but run against it I will. Please let it be Hillary so I can believe someone on his campaign team has some sense of where to go on issues and how to push Obama to be what the country needs. Pretty Please.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm a PUMA and I do not think that it is (5.00 / 16) (#98)
    by honora on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:00:47 PM EST
    required that we think that Hillary will win the nomination.  In fact, I do not think that most PUMAs feel that she will.  I, as a PUMA, believe that the DNC appointed Obama as the nominee despite the will on the Democratic voters. The DNC cheated and lied.  The RNC allowed the Republican voters to nominate their choice; the DNC out republicaned the RNC. I believe that it is important to liberate the DNC and the best way to do that is to make sure that they fail miserably this November.  Tough love. PUMA

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't say that (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:04:27 PM EST
    What I said is that many of them think she still has a CHANCE of winning the nomination.

    I just shake my head and walk away when I see that.

    [ Parent ]

    Teresa, are you convinced (none / 0) (#13)
    by DemForever on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:20:52 PM EST
    that Hillary is the one who should be the nominee?  Are you going to be voting for Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    My vote (5.00 / 17) (#23)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:26:44 PM EST
    is absolutely none of your business.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you, enough said (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by DemForever on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:27:32 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Great Job, Leon (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:20:27 PM EST
    From the Huff Post (No link because I know many folks here won't go there.):

    "Leon Panetta, Bill Clinton's former White House chief of staff, was tasked by the Obama campaign this summer with soothing ruffled feelings and helping Hillary loyalists to get over their sense of loss. It has been a demanding assignment."

    And clearly (5.00 / 14) (#19)
    by janarchy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:25:07 PM EST
    by calling us 'inbred' and further insulting us (as if we haven't been insulted enough in the past 8 months or so), he's soothing ruffled feelings how?

    Call me 'wrongheaded' if you like, but if someone wants my vote, they'd d@mn well better earn it and do what I want. Insulting me, assuming I'll just vote for someone with a (D) after his/her name and tacitly fall into line is not gonna do it.

    The only sense of loss most of us PUMA and PUMA-friendly people have is that of a democratic, progressive government that actually listens to its people. Hillary was the best of the pack, we don't think she was The One and Only. We'll leave that kind of delusional thinking for the Obamanation, thank you.

    [ Parent ]

    And it's a loss we've pretty much gotten over (5.00 / 20) (#59)
    by Valhalla on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:44:38 PM EST
    and are moving on.  Just not in the direction they hoped.

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (5.00 / 20) (#74)
    by janarchy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:47:53 PM EST
    Despite what the MSM says, I don't sit at home building a shrine to Hillary and crying over her loss every night. I don't even expect her to somehow magickally swoop in and get the nomination. I just refuse to support the idiotic Dems any longer -- their last chance was in 2006 and they've done nothing since but capitulate to the Republicans and GWB and attack their own.

    Once again, the Dems are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. As a lifelong Democrat (but no more), I had to walk away and stop enabling them. This election season was the last straw. Now I'm voting for no one, something I didn't even think was conceivable 9 months ago!

    [ Parent ]

    the context.... (5.00 / 11) (#183)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:56:14 PM EST
    by calling us 'inbred' and further insulting us (as if we haven't been insulted enough in the past 8 months or so), he's soothing ruffled feelings how?

    Panetta was trying to explain why he had failed to "sooth ruffled feelings" -- and he couldn't do so while placing the blame where it belongs -- with Obama and his campaign (and possibly with Pannetta himself?).

    I don't know whether Pannetta ever botheed to ask those with "ruffled feelings" what they wanted, but if he did, Team Obama never responded appropriately.  First and foremost is the utter lack of respect shown to Clinton supporters.

    Nothing exemplifies this lack of respect better than the fact that there was ever any question whether Clinton's name would be placed in nomination.  The very idea that the first woman to win a primary oe causus would NOT have her name placed into nomination is mind-boggling simply from a historical standpoint -- to NOT honor that achievement is simply inconceivable.

    And you have to be politically braindead to not have the supporters of the person who received the most votes, and won the most state primaries, and dominated almost every 'swing state' be acknowledged by placing their candidate's name in nomination.  Its bad enough that these voters are getting the message that voters in deep-red states and caucus states are considered more important than they are -- not having their candidate be nominated is treating them like they don't matter at all.

    The fact that this was EVER controversial, let alone the fact that it was a question mark for over two months, tells me that Team Obama and/or Panetta never made a sincere effort.  

    And now Panetta is stuck blaming the wrong people -- and as a result said something really stupic.

    [ Parent ]

    Can I be on his (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Fabian on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:28:29 PM EST
    performance review?

    [ Parent ]
    So he's just making excuses for himself.. (5.00 / 4) (#145)
    by Maria Garcia on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:30:08 PM EST
    ...he couldn't fulfill his task because its so darned hard.

    [ Parent ]
    Here's an exercise (5.00 / 42) (#14)
    by smott on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:21:19 PM EST

    Imagine for a moment, that, shortly after being declared the nominee, Hillary Clinton had done any of the following:

    1. Rented a football stadium for her acceptance speech while not yet formally having enough delegates to claim the nomination

    2. Moved the DNC to New York City

    3. Invented a lame faux-presidential seal

    4. Took a self-coronation tour of Europe

    5. Had "President" stitched on the back of her recliner in H-Force One, after painting her initials over the American flag on the tail

    6. Went on vacation while the other candidate campaigned for her.

    "Avoid the attitude" of entitlement, BTD?
    Jeebus, a little fooking late for that.

    The dude embodies it.


    cheez louise (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by djork on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:08:23 PM EST
    If I didn't know this list was about Obama I'd think GWB at his dorkiest.

    [ Parent ]
    Hard to grasp (5.00 / 31) (#21)
    by JavaCityPal on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:25:19 PM EST
    Since the media and the Obama camp are so certain the PUMA are small in number, why are they so obsessed? There must be a "PUMA" interviewed nearly every other day.

    1. PUMA are not all women
    2. PUMA are not all over 50
    3. PUMA are Democrats who are furious with the DNC
    4. PUMA is not an acronym for sour grapes
    5. Not all HRC supporters put gender ahead of qualifications for why they supported her

    It's typical of the media, and the Obama camp to simply not listen to the people who are trying to tell them what their driving force is, what their goal is, and why they can't get out from under the bus.

    I did not support HRC because she is a woman. She represented the possibility of competent leadership in the WH for these years ahead when repairing the damage done over the past 8 is pretty critical. The DNC chose to handle the primary in a less than democratic fashion, and now the convention is being dominated by religion.

    Amen to that (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by Andy08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:37:38 PM EST
    JavaCityPal.

    [ Parent ]
    I hada friend who always voted for women (5.00 / 7) (#100)
    by dianem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:01:11 PM EST
    She thought she was being a good feminist. I thought she was voting irresponsibly. As a responsible voter, we have to vote for the best candidate, not one with particular physical characteristics we find appealing. I've never been comfortable with promoting people based in gender or race. I used to see it as a necessary evil, but now I'm starting to think that it's more evil than necessary. It marks everybody, not just the ones who are promoted, as "less". It suggests that women can't make it without preferential treatment. We don't need preferential treatment - we just need to be treated the same as anybody else, and that's what we need to fight for.

    [ Parent ]
    You forgot #6 & #7 (5.00 / 7) (#111)
    by tlkextra on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:08:20 PM EST
    1. They are not all uneducated.
    2. They are not all racist.
    Number seven being the name calling that may cost Obama the election.

    [ Parent ]
    Imagine the howling from the obama camp (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:17:51 PM EST
    if someone had referred to obama as a halfbreed...it would not have been pretty imo.

    [ Parent ]
    But Isn't That Kind Of Misperception Common (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM EST
    throughout politics?

    At least in this campaign, the distorted views both sides in the Dem primaries had of the other seemed pretty common online and in the media.

    For example:

    Not all Obama supporters are under 30, OR African American OR well heeled educated elites OR Hillary Clinton haters.

    I'm college educated but I fit in none of the other categories. In fact, except for my education, my profile is a dead ringer for a Clinton supporter, including where I live--upstate New York.

    One of the main reasons I started coming here at the end of the primary season was because I'd lurked at this site in years gone by, liked the culture here and, when I heard there were a lot of (mostly?) HRC supporters here, I wanted to see for myself who you all were and what your positions were compared with how you're portrayed/represented other places.

    [ Parent ]

    What's wrong with Panetta? (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by Andy08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:25:30 PM EST
    I would think he understand the premise that a candidate should earn people's votes and that after such close primaries and with everything that has happened Obama should have gone out of his way to court HRC's voters.

    In additon, there were more voters this primary season than ever before and not everyone that participated was at the extreme of the spectrum of party above all.

    Sadly, the fact is they believe people are robots that vote party line no questions asked...But that was the USSR, not the USA.

    Obama, the DNC and people like Panetta will be in for a big surprise if this is their real mind frame...

    Agreed (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by tlkextra on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:16:39 PM EST
    Instead Obama is spending millions and going around saying he can win Kentucky! LOL. Shouldn't he be trying harder to reach the voters he has a more realistic chance of converting? That's not to say all former HRC supporters would jump on board, but instead of coming across as these votes are expected, he needs to realize that he has to earn them.

    [ Parent ]
    What's wrong with all of them? (5.00 / 9) (#133)
    by MichaelGale on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:18:53 PM EST
    Obama says "those people" about hold outs
    Panetta says "inbred" "entitled"
    Pelosi says get over it, he's "God's gift"

    All this in the last week!

    [ Parent ]

    no, she didn't, did she??? (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:38:39 PM EST
    I hadn't heard that one.  LOL

    And, if Clinton or a Clinton supporter had used any of those phrases, the race-card calling would have been in full bloom again.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes Pelosi (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Andy08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:54:07 PM EST
    said that he is the candidate "G' bless us with"
     
    Here is the link to Politico's story

    Unbelievable... These people are out of their minds and Money has a lot to do with it.

    [ Parent ]

    I too was in shock (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by tlkextra on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:04:35 PM EST
    when I saw Pelosi's comment. I see another version of the GOP "The One" ad soon to follow. This lack of forethought from so many of his followers makes it feel like they are in some sort of cult-like trance.

    [ Parent ]
    Panetta is a politician. Shouldn't he be able to (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:27:48 PM EST
    lie? Shouldn't some of Obama's camp be able to lie? Pretend that you don't have utter contempt for anyone who ever supported Hillary Clinton. Instead of telling half of the party that they are idiot hicks who should F off, maybe you might want to give a little effort, just a little, toward courting them. Then you can take it all back later if you want. But you yell PSYCHE after you fool someone, not before.

    tigercourse (5.00 / 0) (#67)
    by Andy08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:46:34 PM EST
     
    Shouldn't some of Obama's camp be able to lie? ... maybe you might want to give a little effort, just a little, toward courting them. Then you can take it all back later if you want.

    The problem with this technique is that Obama used it already to attract many of his supporters and after he nail them, he took it all back. By now, he's too dizzy from all the flip-floping.

    Talking about flipfloping... Obama's recent comments to David Brody on CNB are stunning...

    Call it he "misspoke" or he "lied": I call it insulting people's intelligence.

    He should stop doing this.


    [ Parent ]

    If PUMAS are wrongheaded for using (5.00 / 18) (#35)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:31:40 PM EST
    the avenue of dissent to bring back democracy to this campaign cycle, what does that make the obama campaign who made sure almost every AA, and others, think the Clintons were racist?  Trying to see that the rules are followed as they are written does NOT make one wrongheaded.  What it does show me is that obama and his camp are afraid of what will happen if Hillary is given a vote...it becomes more apparent everyday.

    Shrug (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Steve M on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:32:12 PM EST
    Where else are they gonna go???

    They don't have to go anywhere (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by BrianJ on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:53:06 PM EST
    Including the polling booth-  which is Obama's problem since Chope and Hange don't seem to be drawing the new voters that his plan (to be generous) requires in record numbers.

    [ Parent ]
    Sounds like (none / 0) (#41)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:34:33 PM EST
    Redneck famous last words:

    "Watch this!"

    [ Parent ]

    Close... (5.00 / 8) (#77)
    by dianem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:49:47 PM EST
    "Hold my beer and watch this".

    [ Parent ]
    Wrongheaded? (5.00 / 30) (#42)
    by Emma on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    Everybody has a line they won't cross.  I notice that it's only when that line is about sexism that people around here are called "wrongheaded" and denigrated.

    Jeralyn has stated she won't vote for Obama if Biden is the VP.  I look forward to lots of posts about how "wrongheaded", to put it politely, that is.

    My guess is that PUMAs are "wrongheaded" because the tacit determination has been made that our complaints of sexism in the Dem party are not important enough to pay attention to.  

    Well, call me what you will.  Here's my line, I will go no farther in ignoring my own interests as a woman, a lesbian, and a feminist.  S*cks for you, I guess.

    Thank you Emma (5.00 / 17) (#106)
    by Valhalla on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:04:00 PM EST
    Sexism isn't the only reason I'm a committed nonsupporter of Obama, but I agree that there's a whole lot of judgment floating around about what is a valid and honorable line which, once crossed, justifies nonsupport/nonvoting versus a silly, crazy or invalid line.  Everyone has their own line, which is fine, but privileging some lines as great and honorable while others are crazy and misguided is kinda cr*p, imo.

    Not just here, but elsewhere, sexism just isn't considered important enough.  Back in the primaries, when many, many AAs said they wouldn't vote for Clinton bc of the SC fairy tale remarks, folks got very upset because the remarks were falsely spun.  No one railed against the idea that someone would not vote for an accomplished Democrat like Hillary just because she'd crossed the racism line.  Had she or Bill actually done that, no one would think twice about AAs AND nonAAs drawing the line there.

    My lines are more than sexism, but that one alone would be enough for me.

    Almost everyone has a line somewhere, they just discount the subject matter of other people's lines.  I mean, if Obama picks Nunn as VP?  If he picked Hagel?  If he gave a speech avidly decrying Social Security and promising to abolish it?  If he switched parties in a blast of happy post-partisanship?  

    Only the KA crowd, as far as I can tell, would support Obama no matter what he does.


    [ Parent ]

    Leon Panetta is racist! (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by blogtopus on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:35:54 PM EST
    I'm waiting for the Obama campaign to bring that out, for his use of the loaded word 'Entitlement'.

    <crickets>

    Believe it or not (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:46:11 PM EST
    There are racists out there that don't where sheets some of them can even be democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    Which means (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:51:36 PM EST
    that Obama's irresponsible charges during the primary mute the interests of the victims of those people.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama (1.14 / 7) (#116)
    by samtaylor2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:09:40 PM EST
    Never charged anying.  

    And what victims are you talking about.  Are you a victim of racism some how?  Or are you the victim of reverse racism?  Oh I feel so bad for you.  Has this reverse racism made it harder for you to get a job?  Has it made people afraid of you?  How do you survive?

    [ Parent ]

    I think (5.00 / 9) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:27:09 PM EST
    she means that Obama has deligitimized real claims of racism. Even if the GOP does come out with a blatantly racist ad, there's nothing he can do about it now. He's enabled them beyond anything I previously thought possible.

    [ Parent ]
    I survive the same way Hillary does. (5.00 / 14) (#147)
    by samanthasmom on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:30:32 PM EST
    When a less qualified man gets a job that I have worked hard for, I pick myself up, do a better job than he does, skip right over him to the next level, and become his boss. Done it twice.

    [ Parent ]
    that settles it (5.00 / 2) (#205)
    by ccpup on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:27:36 PM EST
    You rock!

    :-)

    [ Parent ]

    sam, Teresa was saying that calling someone (5.00 / 9) (#150)
    by Teresa on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:31:14 PM EST
    a racist who is not, diminishes the people who actually are victimized by racists. Like the boy who cried wolf.

    I have no doubt that you have been the victim of racism and I absolutely hate that for you. In this campaign, many Clinton voters and the Clintons themselves were called racists by members of the Obama campaign or his surrogates. That really hurts when it isn't true.

    [ Parent ]

    Sam knows (5.00 / 6) (#164)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:45:46 PM EST
    exactly what is being said.  Sam is just using the "standard" Obama never said it defense.  It was said or implied by everyone else including members of Obama's campaign, but as long as Obama never said it, it didn't happen.

    [ Parent ]
    As a matter of fact (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:46:47 PM EST
    I was denied employment for a job recently that I was fully qualified for, had three excellent interviews for and then  --after three months of waiting -- finally heard from the one racial minority member of the hiring team that I didn't  have enough of a "background of diversity".

    BS, to say the least. My life history was there for her to see but the fact is, I'm white and that was, apparently, not what they were looking for.

    And please don't even start in by trying to deny that women are still discriminated against all the time regarding employment. Happens every single day.

    But it seems that your experience with discrimination is the only one that matters.

    Thanks but no thanks.

    [ Parent ]

    according to at least one (5.00 / 4) (#149)
    by cawaltz on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:31:12 PM EST
    of the Obama supporters we're "born" racist.

    I told her to speak for herself.

    Next thing you know I'm getting a lecture about how I must have little knowledge of AAs and how my lucky I am and was to be white.

    Let me tell you now it was quite the armchair psychoanalyzing session. Especially for someone who has absolutely no idea who I am now and how I came to be the person I am today. I wish I could say it was uncommon but if I had a nickel for every well meaning Obama fan who told me I can not possibly understand, I'd be rich.

    For the record, my sister's SO is AA. So is my nephew. But the armchair interview was entertaining in an annoying preachy kind of way.

    [ Parent ]

    Um, correction (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:46:56 PM EST
    Since PUMA is just a bunch of over-50 women, in this case "entitlement" is sexist, not racist!

    /snark.

    [ Parent ]

    classist (5.00 / 6) (#73)
    by jedimom on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:47:52 PM EST
    inbred is classist AND racist isn't it?

    does he mean we are Appalachian or inbred like the Windsors or what?!

    [ Parent ]

    Someone named DemD over at TPM said (5.00 / 23) (#46)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:37:05 PM EST
    this, "When people don't support your candidate, you're supposed to think of ways to get them to support your candidate, not try to out do each other in the variety of ways you insult them."

    Obama's people should print that out, blow it up and put a copy on every single wall of every single office of his campaign.

    It's a concept that escapes many (5.00 / 11) (#49)
    by andgarden on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:38:28 PM EST
    to whom it would be obvious.

    [ Parent ]
    Entitlement? (5.00 / 16) (#55)
    by dianem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:43:02 PM EST
    That would be the candidate whose supporter's called for the other candidate to drop out of the race months before the delegate count indicated a loss, right? That would be the people who want their candidate to be announced the primary winner without even counting the votes of the other candidate, right? I'd say there is a definite sense of entitlement here.

    PUMA is more about Obama than Hillary (5.00 / 20) (#60)
    by katiebird on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM EST
    It's an open acknowledgment that Obama is unelectable.  Sure, we'd rather have Hillary.  But, we'd compromise with lot's of others. Gore, for example.

    PUMA is just the tip of the iceberg of Obama's problems.

    I've said it before:  PUMA could disband tomorrow and we could all pledge to vote for him.  He will still lose in November.

    Obama to SF Fundraiser: 'I Will Win' (none / 0) (#202)
    by catfish on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 02:14:02 PM EST
    apparently he disagrees.

    [ Parent ]
    offensive (5.00 / 8) (#69)
    by jedimom on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:46:54 PM EST
    It almost appears as though the 'unifiers' are going out of their way to be offensive.

    First Don Fowler and Alice Germond's 'get over it whiners' letter and now Pannetta calls us entitled and inbred, hmmm, can you smell the unity?!

    I found it offensive and it just adds to my conviction that the new 'Brazile Pelosi Obama coalition' does not want me or my family in their new party.


    I'm rather partial (5.00 / 3) (#170)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:48:59 PM EST
    to the "Bitter Knitters" label created by Rahm.  It's so much more visual.

    [ Parent ]
    Earned vs Inbred entitlements (5.00 / 20) (#78)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:50:11 PM EST
    Panetta's problem (and that of the Oborg in general) is that while PUMAs do feel a "sense of entitlement" for Clinton -- but its not an "inbred" entitlement.  Rather, there is the sense that Clinton earned the nomination, and that the Democratic establishment kept her from getting it.

    After February 19th, Obama was clearly the front-runner, and had the media, the money, and momentum behind him.  From that point on, however, Clinton demonstrated that she was clearly the better candidate, but it didn't matter how effectively she managed to clean Obama's clock in the subsequent primaries in crucial states, the flow of superdelegates continued toward Obama.  

    The RBC meeting was the tipping point for a lot of people; while it was intuitively obvious that the 'fix was in' for Obama before that point, the blatant disregard for the party's own rules that was on display at that meeting made the corruption manifest.

    PUMAs don't think that we're entitled to a Hillary nomination -- we think we're entitled to a fair and democratic process...and assume that had the process worked the way it should, that Obama would not have been the nominee.

    And don't forget (5.00 / 11) (#82)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:53:05 PM EST
    that the Roolz committee drove the awful point home even more by their late return from lunch that way.

    The whole thing reeked of "the fix is in" and "backroom negotiations".

    [ Parent ]

    I loved the comment (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by tlkextra on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:35:19 PM EST
    from the Clinton supporter (sorry, I can't remember her name)stating that if the RBC now has the ability to decide who the nominee was, they should cancel the 2012 election and make that decision now as well.

    [ Parent ]
    Um (none / 0) (#95)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:57:51 PM EST
    That way = That day.

    Silly me.

    [ Parent ]

    This is the problem (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by PaulDem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:54:18 PM EST
    The problem is the following mentality:

    Obama: Not enough pledged delegates to win nomination

    Clinton: Not enough pledged delegate to win nomination

    Superdelegates vote put Obama over the top: Illegitimate

    Superdelegates vote to put Clinton over the top: Legitimate

    That's basically the argument that I perceive.

    [ Parent ]

    4 Stolen MI Delegates = Illegitimate (5.00 / 17) (#96)
    by katiebird on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 12:59:16 PM EST
    Stolen MI Uncommitted Delegation = Illegitimate

    Done to give the nomination to an Unelectable and Unqualified candidate.

    And that's fine for those who go along with it.  But, I'm not endorsing it.  I won't vote for Obama.

    I'm not voting for McCain either.  

    [ Parent ]

    Those four delegate (3.50 / 2) (#105)
    by PaulDem on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:03:17 PM EST
    Those four delegates wouldn't have put Clinton over the top for the nomination, she still had to have Superdelegates to vote her in.

    Still, for many people, the ONLY legitimate outcome of the primary process was a Clinton nomination.  Instead of targeting Obama for scorn, they should be targeting the Superdelegates who decided he had the stronger argument for their vote.


    [ Parent ]

    What you don't see (5.00 / 18) (#137)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:25:23 PM EST
    is that move with the four delegates was exactly so unnecessary by the rules and bylaws committee that it was the evidence of how far it would go to carry Obama over the finish line.  

    And, of course, it was in violation of Michigan state law as well as the Dem party charter.

    It was a stupid slap in the face at 18 million voters.  And it was illegal by state law and by party rules -- rules for which many loyal Dems fought long and hard to make the party more fair when it discriminated against minorities and women.

    It was a slap, and it was the SNAP! that told longtime loyal Dems that it wasn't that party --  their party -- anymore.  It was not about numbers.  It was about the message.

    [ Parent ]

    those four delegates... (5.00 / 21) (#148)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:30:56 PM EST
    ... were the manifestation of the corruption of the process.  The RBC lost any pretense that its primary concern was "the rulez", because the theft of those four delegates from Clinton could not be accomplished under any interpretation of the rules themselves.

    and btw, you obviously don't have the first clue about the rules, because the person who wrote the comment to which you were responding wrote about the tacit endorsement of Michigan's plan to assign all the 'uncommitted' delegates to Obama -- a separate and distinct violation of the rules themselves.  The commenter that you responded to is wrong, insofar as the RBC did not actually assign those uncommitted delegates to Obama, rather it was aware that the Michigan Democratic Party was ignoring Party rules regarding "uncommitted" delegates, and taking steps to ensure that only delegates committed to Obama received the "uncommitted" slots in the Michigan delegation.

    In other words, what happened with the uncommitted delegation was a passive acceptance of rules violations (much like not penalizing IA, NH, and SC for moving their dates in clear violation of the rules).  Stealing delegates that under the "fair representation" rule belonged to Clinton, and giving them to Obama, was an ACTIVE violation of DNC rules by the rules committee itself.

    [ Parent ]

    well the superdelegates are not running for (5.00 / 6) (#154)
    by kimsaw on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:34:16 PM EST
    president, Obama is. Its the PRINCIPLE of the theft, not the number.  Leadership means doing what's right when you know something is blatantly wrong. If Obama can't grasp that STEALING delegates is wrong and doesn't want to play by the rules, how can he be trusted to stand up for anything on behalf of the American people?

    [ Parent ]
    understanding the role of sds... (5.00 / 15) (#124)
    by p lukasiak on Mon Aug 18, 2008 at 01:15:36 PM EST
    the PUMA critique is based on an understanding of the proper role of the superdelegates in the nomination process.

    Basically, their role is limited to when no candidate achieves the super-majority of delegates available during the primary season.  When that