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Now We Can Talk About The Flawed Nominating System

NYTimes Editorial:

. . . A guiding principle behind American democracy is “one person, one vote.” All voters should have an equal opportunity, regardless of who they are or where they live, to affect the outcome. The process should be transparent, the ballot should be secret, and there should be no unnecessary barriers to voting. Tested against these principles, both parties’ systems fall short. Among the most troubling elements:

More . .

Caucuses. These are often promoted as pure small-town democracy. But participants generally have to commit themselves for hours, a sizable burden on the right to vote, especially for people who care for children or sick relatives. There is no absentee voting, so caucuses disenfranchise voters who have conflicting work schedules; who are out of town, including in the military; or who are too sick to travel to the caucus site. The ballot is not secret, which intimidates some voters into staying away or not expressing their true choices. Vote totals are not reported. The parties should abandon caucuses and switch entirely to primaries. . . .

Read the whole thing.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Iowa, you are on notice. (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:41:08 PM EST
    Your day is done.

    AND New Hampshire (5.00 / 7) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:41:59 PM EST
    The privileged status of the two states is unacceptable.

    Parent
    I'm for a national primary. (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:44:07 PM EST
    No one state is more important than another.  The DNC can seed relatively unkown candidates, give them a chance to prove themselves.

    Parent
    And how about we do NOT reward (5.00 / 13) (#21)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:08:01 PM EST
    candidates who have removed their names from state ballots with votes or delegates.  They get nothing!!

    Parent
    Toxic act for Dems (5.00 / 13) (#77)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:02:55 PM EST
    That was the last straw. I had outrage at many things during the long campaign, but I brushed them off or wrote a few letters and felt relief after a day or two.  They hurt, like the reports from Texas about lock-outs or the Gary Indiana eternal waiting.  And the statements by the DNC mobsters that flew in the face of reality. But I kept thinking "all's well that ends well" and got back to business.  

    Then things were really heating up, and I kept saying THEY have one shot to right the wrongs and do the right thing - May 31st.  So we waited and we wrote more letters and we read the proposals which offered little sign of fairness.

    And then the day came and people were outside protesting Count The Votes and Dean started talking about sexism - finally and there was a glimmer of "the old dem party" that was core to who I am for decades.  And Donna Brazile was all pouty and miserable so I figured there might be a Miracle yet.  But no, it was worse than I thought it could possibly be, way worse.

    I somehow, from all the decades of following MY party, thought it will all HAVE TO work out right.

    But no.

    And I listened to Ickes and every fiber of my core was coming from his mouth.  Everything MY party stood for was at stake.  And I imagined the very air in the room was tingling and his words were cutting through all the deception and they would all have to see this is urgently critical.

    But no.

    What do I do with THAT outrage?

    How do I get over THAT?

    When 2000 happened it was easy to say "they robbed us!" bastards.  They'll see what they did when they realize how much better our candidate is... and even better and more proud to be a dem when we were proven RIGHT.  Bush tanked and Gore was exalted with a Nobel.  Justice for MY party.

    What now?  They ate their own. And they did it with a pre-planned fix that railroaded it the way they wanted it to go.

    That the choice they made was entirely the wrong choice by a zillion light years to me is besides the point.

    That they did it at all is the whole point.

    If some miracle or disaster occurs and they swing back the other way in August and Hillary wins, it is still a huge blot on the party that will take an enormous amount of work and actions to remove.

    For starters - remove the entire upper eschelon.

    Then admit everything, come clean on it all.

    Has anyone seen the LaRouche Video?  He says he has a story to tell about the Superdelegates.

    I'm all ears.  And full of scars that won't heal.

     

    Parent

    Karen for Clinton, we could be twins (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:54:05 PM EST
    even down to how Donna B looked at that meeting. I so agree with absolutely everything you have said.It has been very difficult to explain this to anyone who asks and I fear all is lost. I've come to agree with BTD about Clinton being VP because to me, she still continues making history. I would like to think that anything can happen, when you wish upon a star and all of that, but the reality is, for now, what is, is and we have to make decisions based on that. I will vote country, not person, not party. Right now, "there's no place like home" doesn't fit anymore and frankly, I don't want to "come home!"

    Parent
    Ickes (none / 0) (#84)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:23:06 PM EST
    And I listened to Ickes and every fiber of my core was coming from his mouth.

    Ickes was the guy that put the rules in place and then, with a straight face, declared his own actions a horrible injustice.

    Almost anyone else could call the result an injustice. Not him.

    Parent

    They did not follow the rules (5.00 / 5) (#116)
    by karen for Clinton on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:09:57 PM EST
    There is no rule to give any votes or delegates to another candidate who is NOT on the ballot.

    agggggghhhhhh. PUMA.

    Parent

    LaRouche Video (none / 0) (#122)
    by sociallybanned on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:39:17 PM EST
    I've read recently on HillaryClintonforum.net about that video but I'd just joined there yesterday so I haven't had a chance to read anymore about it. I'll definitely take a look at it.

    Parent
    Stand By Me - Treachery (none / 0) (#160)
    by karen for Clinton on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 05:08:49 AM EST
    an unknown is more likely to (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:19:54 PM EST
    be MORE able to win somewhere or other in a national primary.

    It should have second round however where the two top candidates from the first round can solidfy more than 50% of the vote.   It could all be done in a month.   Like France and their presidential elections.

    Parent

    there is no way (none / 0) (#110)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:25:20 PM EST
    anunknown candidate can compete in a National primary.  It would take too much money.
    That's part of the reason for starting in Iowa and NH.  Because they are small and anyone can campaign there without millions of dollars

    Parent
    quite wrong (none / 0) (#140)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:42:06 PM EST
    You would be able to win a local fight or two.  

    However I am not a FAN OF UNKNOWN POLS.  I's a goddamn stupid obsession.  Let these prats prove themselves for a while on the national stage.  

    Parent

    What if all the candidates (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:45:16 PM EST
    had agreed to ignore Iowa and NH instead of MI and FL?  I think we would all be better off in 2012.  Iowa and NH have to accept that a change is coming!

    Parent
    I had a devious scheme (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:48:46 PM EST
    of having a bunch of big states put into state law that candidates competing for nomination in NH and IA could not appear on the November ballot.

    Parent
    Heh. (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:36:30 PM EST
    I wish I could agree (none / 0) (#63)
    by camellia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:14:40 PM EST
    but the history of the past eight years seems to indicate that change isn't coming very fast at all.  My question -- what will it take to get change?  I think most of us are aware of the outrageous shortcomings of the present system--no paper trail, caucuses, unrestrained absentee balloting, the electoral college system and, last but not least, the ridiculous Democratic nominating process.  Again -- what do we have to do to get change?

    Parent
    It's never really been tested like this (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:23:17 PM EST
    Normally the second finisher has been hundreds if not thousands of dels behind the top candidate.

    I do think it needs to be changed though for other reasons.

    There are better models that cost less, that have proven to produce a better National Candidate than the on ethat the Dems use. 1 winner in 40 years is a sign that the system is no good at picking winners.

    Parent

    If BO wins in Nov. '08 status quo stays (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by gram cracker on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:11:35 PM EST
    If Obama is elected President in November 2008 the Democratic party is unlikely to change their primary process.  Why would BO want to change a process that favored him?  Only if BHO loses will the primary process change.

    Parent
    I'd submit (none / 0) (#42)
    by Y Knot on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:42:43 PM EST
    that Obama winning or losing should be utterly irrelevant to whether this system gets overhauled.  If he loses, the primary still worked for him.  Why would HE focus on changing it?  If he wins... Well presumably he'd have more important things to focus on, like running the country.

    Ever since the cracks in this primary system was revealed, before it was clear who was going to win, I've been saying that the loser should focus on primary reform. Clinton has enormous clout right now and many (justifiably) angry supported, who presumably would be very motivated to start coming up with solutions at a grass-roots level.

    I'm an Obama supporter and I strongly support fixing this system.  I truly do get it. But the impetus for real change will probably come from the Clinton side. Anger can be a fantastic motivator.

    Parent

    The Opposite is True (none / 0) (#53)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:01:14 PM EST
    Reform is MOST likely to happen if Obama wins in November. He could support a change in the process because it won't effect him at all. An incumbent president gets no more than fringe opposition in the primaries. The Dems have plenty of time for reform before 2016.

    Parent
    I'm not sure I can agree (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:27:30 PM EST
    I suppose it will depend on how things settle down within the party.  If too many continue to question fairness and legitimacy of Obama's nomination, Obama might fear supporting a reform would be seen as acknowledgment the critics were correct.  

    And I would caution against thinking 8 years is plenty of time.  I think we all believed the process that led to the 2000 debacle would be changed and in 2008 we could be facing some of the same problems again.  

    Parent

    and we will be less able to complain (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:46:02 PM EST
    about them because of the dem debacle.  Count the votes sounds like an empty platitude now.

    Parent
    I agree except he has (none / 0) (#56)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:05:59 PM EST
    no motivation to do so.  He wouldn't have to fight against it because, as you said, it won't affect him.  But he won't care either way, so I don't see him spending a lot of energy on it.

    I can't see Clinton spending a lot of energy on it either.  Next time, she (or whomever) will just take the possible small-red-state effect into consideration in campaign strategy.  It's easier than trying to reform the system, esp. since it means going up against a number of individual states who like their caucuses.  She's more likely to put all her energy into UHC and other policies.

    Parent

    The incentive (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Trickster on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:10:48 PM EST
    is simple: the current system is terrible.  Even if you accept the most jaded notion of what motivates candidates, honest-to-God reform that practically nobody can argue with is pretty much guaranteed to curry favor with voters.

    Parent
    if that's true (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Y Knot on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:11:40 PM EST
    them there's no one person who will force the issue. If there's to be real change it must come from us, the people of the Democratic party.  

    So... Who's up for starting a blog?

    Parent

    Could I be blunt? (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by ghost2 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:29:09 PM EST
    The AA districts and hence voters (and the AA turnout machines) have a lot of clout in the nomination process.  There is no reason they would give it away.  They are one constituency to which Obama is indebted and can't p*&s off.  Plus, democrats are dependent on AA votes and cannot afford to p&^s off that constituency.  

    So, yes, dream on.  But caucuses will stay.  Donna will have a big role in DNC, and the delegation allocation will NOT change.  

    You can take that to the bank.  And don't call me names because I am being honest. These things have to be said in the sun and hashed out.
     

    Parent

    the argument is that it produces (none / 0) (#90)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:37:34 PM EST
    too many losing candidates for us.  I don't mind the boutique nature of a few early contests one Iowa or one NH, but Caucuses and rolling primaries must be ditched and everything should be consolidated into a singular national event.   The string of primaries that roll on from supertuesday are counterproductive and rife with media and GOP interfereance.

    Parent
    2016?? WTF ever! (none / 0) (#131)
    by sociallybanned on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:02:48 PM EST
    2016?  I don't think so.  Try 2012.  Neither candidate will become reelected.  

    Here is my scenarios.

    Let's say Obama wins the Nov. election.

    Hillary will run in the primaries against Obama   in 2012 and I'm sure the DNC will be pist.  But by then, all of Hillary supporters will no more about how the DNC failed us and the nomination process was as equivalent as the Republicans screwing us in 2000.  I'm referring to the MI/FL primary dates moving up that Wayne Barrett has written about and of course how Obama's campaign chair and mgr's were behind defying DNC rules.  Plus, more crap about Rezko and finally the Republican media will report all the stuff we here already know about the "con man", Obama. And MSM will inform those that do not research on their own as well all here have.

    Those 18 million voters and more (my daughter will be voting by then and I'll be 39) will already know how to make sure Hillary benefits from those caucuses better. I'm sure Obama's true colors will come out and of course his lack of action to withdraw troops will tick off all those young voters that were promised.  Besides, that is the main reason why so many of them jumped on his bandwagon.  I bet we can get half of those voters for Hillary.  (One thing to watch is the Kyoto Protocol which expires in 2011).

    It is my prediction he will fail to bring our troops home.  I can bet that he will try to talk about it again or do something right before the 2012 primaries.  Mark my word!  He will in turn fail to get reelected due to this main failure alone. Obama is for all corporate greed and higher tax which in turn will also squeeze our wallet which is a like a turnip that doesnt have any juice in it.

    Let's say McCain wins the election which I believe he will.

    Everything I said above as well applies to McCain.  However, even McCain supporters will get tired of the Republican approach to the economy.  I think both candidates will fail if either is elected.  I do believe McCain will create a plan which may fail through trial and error to apply greener technologies.  I don't think Obama will even attempt one.  I think McCain will begin to clean up Bush's smeared crap all over the world but it will get left unnoticed because of the bitter Obama folks, which in turn , the media will ruin a reelection for him.  

    Most of all, the Hillary Supporters for McCain will be watching closely, not waiting, to fuel what we can use to take aim at in the 2012 primaries against Obama.

    Parent

    correct (none / 0) (#132)
    by sociallybanned on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:03:37 PM EST
    Here is my scenarios?  

    should be Here are my scenarios.  sorry

    Parent

    If? (none / 0) (#101)
    by rdandrea on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:58:34 PM EST
    When!

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#7)
    by stillife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:48:43 PM EST
    Your comment reminds me of an argument my husband had with a friend who lives in Iowa (an Obama supporter).  She's very proud of her state's caucus tradition.  He said, "Why should a bunch of hicks have the power to choose a nominee?"  (I do not endorse this view and I hasten to add that my husband is a Brit by birth and a contrarian by nature).  She took it in good humor - we still joke about her being a "hick" - but the question remains.  Why do certain states wield so much power?

    I believe it's time for a National Primary Day, or, at the very least, rolling primaries.  And no more caucuses!

    Parent

    I think it best to just commit to a National (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:55:46 PM EST
    Primary Day.  The rolling states scenario is just more opportunity for some of these Party bosses to exert their influence.

    Parent
    Yup (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:58:38 PM EST
    A national primary day would be the best proving ground for November too.

    Parent
    I still like the prolonged primary season (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Y Knot on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:53:33 PM EST
    I like that candidates get to focus on one or several states at a time and I think the candidates having to slog through it for so long gives them a chance to get real exposure and experience in the ways of campaigning.

    I don't like caucuses at all for all the obvious reasons and I think we've pretty much proven that the super delegate system is seriously flawed.  

    One thing I do like is the proportional allocation of votes. It seems much more fair than winner take all. In fact, if we could figure out how to get all 50 states to agree, I'd like it to be that way in November, too. That way democrats in TX and Republicans in CA for example, would get counted too.

    Parent

    proportionanl has its flaws (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:37:22 PM EST
    i could support the proprtional allocation of delegates with some adjustments.  There should be NO districts with an even number of delegates because the winner had to get over 65% to gain an advantage.

    And, I have a problem wirh allocating delegates to a district based on previous election results.  Delegates should be allocated to districts based on the number of registered dems in the district compared to other districts.

    Parent

    Please Explain (none / 0) (#125)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:40:18 PM EST
    Why allocation based upon registration rather than voting results? Why would we provide disproportionate voting strength to areas where the registered Democrats either don't vote or vote Republican? And what about states that don't register by party?

    Parent
    Totally Disagree (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:24:28 PM EST
    A national primary day is a terrible idea. It's likely that the candidate with the highest name rec wins and there isn't sufficient time to vet the candidates over a series of contests.

    Here is my reform agenda:

    1. Study the results of the caucuses after the November elections. Did the Democratic Party build stronger organizations in caucus states in the primaries that benefited the party in the general? We shouldn't just throw out caucuses without some detailed analysis of pros and cons.

    2. Divide the US into six geographical regions. Set up a system for retail politics on the front end with six states -- one from each region -- that each get at least one week's attention from the candidates. I personally have no problem with Iowa and New Hampshire going first. But the other four should rotate. This retail phase should run from Jan 1 to April 1.

    3. Follow the single-state races with six regional primaries for the remaining states that are spaced at least one week apart. This wholesale regional phase should run from April 15 to June 15.

    4. Reexamine the DNC's rules on the proportional distribution of delegates. Consider a system of winner-take-all at the Congressional district level.

    5. Reexamine the DNC's rules on superdelegates to determine if the nomination should be based entirely on pledged delegates from the primaries or keeping the current system.


    Parent
    cuacuses should be (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:40:57 PM EST
    required to have absentee ballots if they want to continue.  I have heard that some states who have caucuses do provide absentee ballots.

    Any voter who wants to participate in the process should be able to and without absentee ballots, a caucus doesn't allow full participation.

    Parent

    OK, Except... (none / 0) (#127)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:45:08 PM EST
    A caucus is a party building exercise, not simply an election. The point is to deepen voter engagement in the party beyond the relatively passive act of voting. Now, with the Web it might be possible to achieve that same objective without the caucus. But such questions should be asked before simply abolishing caucuses.

    Parent
    There are other ways to build the party (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:04:34 PM EST
    Plenty of states don't have caucuses and they have plenty of party-building.  Most of the big blue states are primary states.

    Parent
    Bully the party (none / 0) (#149)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:09:08 PM EST
    I just want a few policies to be principles.

    Parent
    I agree with most of what you say (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by otherlisa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:38:51 PM EST
    except for the caucuses. I think we need to eliminate them. They are too easy to game and too exclusionary. They are also not a good test of how a nominee will fare in the fall.

    There are other ways to build the party. The downside of caucuses outweighs their benefit, IMO.

    Parent

    it would need a first a second round (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:29:34 PM EST
    just so a hijacker can be countered.

    Parent
    how do you address the argument (4.66 / 3) (#16)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:00:32 PM EST
    of name recognition if you only have one day?

    Parent
    How do you get elected Governor (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:08:05 PM EST
    of California, Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, New York, Michigan, Illinois. ..  .? They don't hold primaries by county.

    My response, frankly, is "too bad." Elections cost money, and if you can't raise enough to be competitive in a national primary, that's your problem.

    Parent

    actually regional candidate would (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:41:42 PM EST
    be able to run a good regional strategy.

    You could easily see a califonian dem chancing their luck on the day.  Especially if it was a winner take all sort of state.

    But you point is good, who cares if they can't raise the money. We end up with the top two money bags anyway no matter what.

    Parent

    What I don't like about a national primary (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by otherlisa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:42:20 PM EST
    is that I think an extended series of primaries really does test candidates and vet them in a way that a national primary does not. I like the idea of eliminating caucuses, making primaries closed and using some sort of system of rotating primaries, whether regional or through some other criteria.

    Parent
    I guess it (none / 0) (#24)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:11:42 PM EST
    does take away the advantage a regional candidate would have if their region was early...I could get behind the one day deal, especially if it does eliminate the need for delegates.

    Parent
    If it goes to a national primary day... (none / 0) (#40)
    by thinkingfella on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:40:48 PM EST
    then there will be no momentum, and the candidate with the most name recognition wins. I get the philosophy behind one day, one vote, all votes count the same. But that's not the best way to test candidates under continuous pressue.

    Beware of unintended consequences...

    If we had a national primary day in 1992 then Bill Clinton would have been just a blip in history. Our nominee would have been Tom Harkin, or Paul Tsongas, in all likelihood Bush sr. would have served a second term, and we would have missed out on having one of our greatest presidents.

    Doing the entire primary in one day would make a state like mine (California) very powerful, and would make smaller states effectively powerless.

    I'm completely open to changing the formula for the states order, and I even like the idea of basing the order on the previous years turnout, but I am completely opposed to a national primary day.

    Parent

    How about getting rid of caucauses, (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:57:13 PM EST
    holding only primaries, keep a similar primary campaign schedule like the one in place...and make each state winner take all?

    Parent
    In CA, be an A-list film star. (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:48:24 PM EST
    Or campaign finance reform for primaries (none / 0) (#91)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:41:34 PM EST
    at the very least.  The small states say that running a primary election costs too much money.  How about public funding and mail in ballots for starters? That would cut the costs for candidates and make it possible for the lesser known to get a chance and mail in reduces costs to the state.

    Parent
    One day? (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by ineedalife on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:45:46 PM EST
    The campaign wouldn't be one day, it would probably be a year. Unless the DNC put a limit on early campaigning and spending.

    This year, as has happened before, the supposedly unknown guy won the first contest. So it is hard to make that argument.

    The party could level the playing field by sponsoring a debate series in each region of the nation and limit spending. Perhaps all donations to a candidate for the primary can go to an escrow account at the DNC and they disburse it to the candidates.

    I would also like to see winner-take-all primaries. Ballots could have a preference where the voters rank their choices and an instant runoff was used, the candidate that reaches 50% first should win the state.

    Parent

    I hesitate to say this, (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by camellia on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:23:09 PM EST
    but many other  countries use a preference system, and it does seem to work well.  In fact, my first votes were cast in another country where we used paper and pencil to vote, had a preference system, and where votes were counted by hand and the results announced within 24 hours.  No delegates, no superdelegates, and campaigns lasted only six weeks.  

    But -- what would us political junkies do for entertainment then?

    Parent

    How about this (none / 0) (#152)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:22:41 PM EST
    We could have a national primary day and in this scenario one could allow states with X amount of delegates decided to do a winner take all as a way to off set the big states advantage of having extraordinary number of delegates.  That way it would pay off to not ignore all the small states, because if you take Montana for example We 17 delegates and we could do a winner take all that way you could net all 17 delegates.  That I think would increase the power of small states.  

    However my ideal scenario is we would have a national primary day or broken into no more then 4 dates set far enough apart to stop momentum and the nominee is decided on the Popular vote, with the requirement that they get at least 40% of the vote. to get the nomination.  

    Parent

    Never mind the state itself. (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by ghost2 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:37:10 PM EST
    Do you remember the endorsement of Des Moines Register for Hillary?  We were so excited.  

    On the other hand, the Des Moines Registrar pollster came up with a poll, with a new voter participation that never panned out, but generated tons of positive press and momentum for obama.  

    The latter is a very dangerous precedent, and I believe hasn't taken the attention that it deserves.  Pollster can manipulate poll results by varying their turnout models, and hence give a huge boost to a candidate.  I believe they have started to cherish and use their influence (like media) and objectivity is starting to go out the window.  

    My point is, forget the state of IA.  A tiny newspaper in Iowa and its chief pollster have way too much influence.  They can practically choose the president.  

    Parent

    I read it because you asked me to, (5.00 / 10) (#10)
    by suisser on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:53:12 PM EST
    despite the fact that it's sitting here next to me having gone unread all day.  I have lost all respect for the NYT.  The coverage of the campaign has been opportunistic and self-aggrandizing. This I expect from the cable news, wasn't prepared for it from My Paper.
    And why do this, "It takes nothing away from the achievements of Barack Obama. . .  to take note that the system for choosing the parties' nominees is seriously flawed."  ?  
    Does it not? Really?

    the corporate media and press (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by Josey on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:46:48 PM EST
    gave Obama a free ride - the same corporations that sold us Bush in 2000 and the Iraq War.
    The same corporations the public relies on for polling data.


    Parent
    This is the NYT's idea of serious coverage (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Nike on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:10:47 PM EST
    They refuse to offer substantive analysis, until too late. We did get some really nice assessment of the "brilliant," "inspired" type fonts used by the Obama campaign, plus a fine account of the "deep" meaning behind Michelle's purple dress. It's just embarassing...

    Parent
    NOW the NYT can be "objective".... (none / 0) (#123)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:39:26 PM EST
    Another presumption: we all have Alzheimer so they feel they can go back to their "journalistic" mode and, voila, nothing happened! Ha! Some of us have the mind of an elephant: forget nothing.

    On another note, what's with the sleevless garbs? is this dress for success, or what?

    Parent

    Caucuses definitely need to go, (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:55:25 PM EST
    but a national primary is not the solution - in fact, I would argue that to bring up these two things anywhere near each other is to guarantee that the caucus system will prevail.

    Why?  Because if we have learned anything from this primary season, it is that voters actually like feeling that their votes count, that the issues of their state and their community matter on a national level; if we have a national primary, it will be only the biggest, delgate-rich states that get any attention.  And, in my opinion, that's wrong.

    I'm not sure what the answer is - some kind of regional plan that rotates from cycle to cycle, maybe, but still - on a regional level, there will be more campaigning in Pennsylvania and New York than there will be in Delaware, and I'm pretty sure Delaware voters would like to have some attention.

    A national primary is not a good idea.

    What you say is demonstrably untrue (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:58:05 PM EST
    If it were true, Obama would have been finished on Super Tuesday, having lost most of the big states. But he was not finished, because he paid attention to the small states.

    Democrats who run for Governor in big states and ignore the rural areas also tend to lose.

    The argument for a national primary is pretty much the same as the argument for a national popular vote election in November. Make every vote count, and make sure that every vote counts the same.

    Parent

    What I say is a matter of opinion - mine - (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:38:54 PM EST
    based on what I have seen over the last months of this campaign, and what I have seen developing over the 9 previous presidential campaigns I have lived through since becoming old enough to vote.

    The reason Obama spent as much time as he did in the small states was because he could, and it was part of his strategy - how much time would Obama have spent in Nebraska, or Idaho or South Dakota or Montana - or even Iowa or New Hampshire - if we had a one-day, national primary? And would that be a viable strategy under a national primary scenario where there are no caucuses?  I think not.

    As for your other points - any candidate for governor who wants to win will pay attention to all the people of his or her state, but running for governor is not like running for president.

    And while making sure every vote counts is what it should be all about, and I will grant you that most candidates make some attempt to set foot in all 50 states in a general election campaign, I'm pretty sure the real attention is spent on areas with large populations.

    I also shudder to think how much farther out the primary campaigning would have to start, and how many more hundreds of millions of dollars it would take for anyone to be able to make it through to a national primary day.  Money could become the only bright-line test for being a presidential nominee - and I'm not overly fond of that possibility - it's close enough to that as it is, and I am more convinced than ever that money cannot buy the best candidate.

    Parent

    Not strictly correct (none / 0) (#52)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:57:31 PM EST
    Obama paid attention to the early small states.  If all the states voted on one day he would not have been able to get the momentum the small states gave him to build up his name recognition, etc.

    The GE is all on one day and I would be surprised if Obama spent any significant amount of time in any small states between the convention and the GE.  He certainly won't spend more than token time in any of those small red states.

    I think the caucus trick is something that could only be really successful once.

    Parent

    We're forgetting one thing... (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:50:47 PM EST
    Obama was selected, and in the process, disenfranchised 2.3 million voters. He did not win.

    Parent
    The term momentum is a buzz (none / 0) (#151)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:22:30 PM EST
    word for good press.  The press does not need to tell us that the momentum is with candidate X and that candidate Y is fading. That kind of momentum is media manipulation. The pulic just needs to hear the candidates and then make up their collective minds.

    Parent
    you make a good point (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:58:31 PM EST
    but I still think the fairest solution is 5 or six regional primaries spread out over 4-6 month period of time.

    Parent
    Several Secretarys of State (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by imhotep on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:06:14 PM EST
    including Washington's Sam Reed are discussing a rolling primary system.  Nothing was decided for this election cycle-obviously.
    But taking the caucus system away from the Party bosses will be very difficult.  That system gives them a lot of power and you know what they say about power.

    Parent
    Or over a 3 month period. too much money (none / 0) (#97)
    by hairspray on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:49:35 PM EST
    in this election.  A total waste.

    Parent
    Reward voter turnout? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Knocienz on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:06:40 PM EST
    I agree on the national primary. The expense requiring all candidates to commit to 50 state campaigning would force years of fund-raising.

    Not sure about the regional plan (just imagine when the deep South has the first round vs when the North East does)

    The whole Iowa/New Hampshire argument comes down to  how they take their responsibility so seriously, so why not reward states that show that they take it seriously? Use voter turnout in the General and Primary elections in the last X cycles to set that state's date.


    Parent

    I think that's a great idea (none / 0) (#142)
    by otherlisa on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:48:09 PM EST
    It might even encourage voter turn-out - Americans like to compete at stuff.


    Parent
    If candidates agreed to campaign in every state (none / 0) (#20)
    by nellre on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:07:19 PM EST
    And if the primary were held in June...
    I don't see why that wouldn't work.

    Parent
    "Campaign" would be (or is) (none / 0) (#61)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:13:52 PM EST
    an elastic term and relies on good faith.  Instead of doing no campaigning in some places, candidates would just do the minimum -- holding a press conference at the airport during their layover to a big state, for instance.  

    Pledges regarding campaigning weren't held to this year, so I don't have a lot of faith in that for the future.

    Rolling primaries on some basis other than region seems like the best idea, along with the bite-size chunks idea.  Voter participation is a good idea, and would give all those caucus states an incentive to become primary states of their own accord, since otherwise they'd always be last.

    Parent

    Not so (none / 0) (#147)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:07:17 PM EST
    A local candidate would be able to really upend a superficial attempt to airport it in.

    We get the two money bag candidates every time anyway.  

    So I'd be willing to see what they would do if the whole thing were decided in a night and theyn finalized a month later with a duel between the top two...

    Parent

    Hmm, wonder why they (5.00 / 6) (#17)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:02:13 PM EST
    "sat on" this article.

    One of the most important guiding principles of this democracy is stability.  Complaining about unfairness during the process was subordinated to the good of the rules and the stability of the nominating system.  

    And of course, the MI/FL debacle.  If the states had been fully restated, Obama would not be the nominee now.

    do you think the outcome would (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:03:53 PM EST
    have been any different?  I think the SDs would have just used the same old line about the roolz. Having said that, I wish they had started talking about this earlier and talked about it nonstop since that is what it will take to change the system.

    Parent
    The results were (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:32:41 PM EST
    to give us Obama. The system has to be looked at for change.

    I will say that the video linked gave me the best laugh of the day.

    Parent

    Rules (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by PamFl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:03:31 PM EST
    "Rules are not necessarily sacred, principals are."   FDR

    Parent
    What about vice principals? (none / 0) (#75)
    by digdugboy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:58:35 PM EST
    Again, (none / 0) (#78)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:05:27 PM EST
    people will vote based on perception, as BTD so aptly pointed out.

    Few in the otherthanblogs world will not be influenced and repubs who want a victory in November will remain firmly in his camp.

    It has to be Obama who wins people over.

    Does that scare you?

    Parent

    Not everyone (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by oldpro on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:12:41 PM EST
    thinks the system is flawed, I gather.

    Did those who won...whose candidate won...this time, think the system was flawed and needs changing?

    Somehow I doubt it.

    It's now 'their party.'

    I doubt any more party changes are in order.

    Change ends when you cross the finish line.

    Another Obama person here (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Y Knot on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:04:03 PM EST
    who thinks the system should be changed.  I would hope that any intellectually honest person would have to admit its badly flawed.

    Specifically what we need to do is a subject for genuine debate, but that it needs to change is beyond doubt in my mind.

    Parent

    Flawed vs Needs improvement (none / 0) (#48)
    by Knocienz on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:53:10 PM EST
    My favorite candidate didn't run (Gore), but of the two that stayed standing the longest, my preferred candidate won.

    Despite that, I strongly agree that the system needs improvement. I think I can legitimately do that without holding those flaws against any of the candidates who navigated the system as it was/is.

    And yes, now that Obama has gained initial control over the party (which will only last if he wins the GE) it will be one of his many responsibilities (and Dean's) to improve the system.

    (it is so hard to make it through this without a sports metaphor)

    Parent

    It is flawed (none / 0) (#161)
    by jbwalkup on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 09:43:02 AM EST
    I am an Obama supporter, and I would agree that the process is "flawed".  Personally, I have always thought it would make sense to have a calendar where states vote in reverse order of size, so that candidates don't just concentrate on winning big states, but have to consider the tradeoff between making a big bet on a large state (the "Rudy" strategy) versus trying to build momentum through early states.  I think that primaries are almost always better than caucuses (although they are more expensive to run) and that proportional rather than winner-take-all primaries better represent the will of the voters.

    However, there are a lot more issues to think about than just caucuses vs. primary and timing of contests.  Here's a short list.  Try to think about how you would answer without thinking of the results from this year:

    1.  Fully open primary vs. partially (Dem & Ind.) open primary vs. closed primary

    2.  Apportionment of number of delegates

    3.  Delegates from territories.

    I can see an argument that all contests should be closed primaries, that delegates should be apportioned based upon the number of Democrats who voted/are registered in each state, and that all Democrats, even those who will not be able to vote in November, should have their voices heard.  I would call this the "Elect a candidate who has the strongest support in the party" argument.

    I can also see an argument that all contests should be fully open primaries, that only states (and DC) that have electoral votes should count, and that their delegations should be proportional to their votes in the Electoral College.   I would call this argument the "Elect a candidate who has the widest appeal to general election voters" argument.

    I'm sure many others could provide reasons for why various permutations of these variables, as well as others, would be more desirable.  It is important to remember, however, that a lot of these decisions are made by state governments, not the Party.

    I certainly hope that the whole process can be re-examined after this year's confusion.  

    And after that debate, we can figure out what to do about "Super Delegates" :-)

    Parent

    Not sure what the answer is (5.00 / 7) (#27)
    by Amiss on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:19:26 PM EST
    but I am definitely against a caucus system ever again. I also agree with the above poster who stated  that if you take your name off the ballot, you will not get any votes period. I do not like the idea of Donna Brazile et al deciding for me who I voted for. Biggest farce I have seen in recent years was the RBC meeting and decision. Absolutely disgusting. So they took someone else's vote this time and gave it to their preferred nominee, next time it could be yours.

    Getting rid of caucuses is the most important (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by rjarnold on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:24:34 PM EST
    reform. I don't think any other problem can completely skew the election results like the caucus system has.

    I don't get this part (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Manuel on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:28:27 PM EST
    There are other issues to consider. The Democrats, in particular, should have clear rules for how states will be punished if they violate scheduling rules -- as Michigan and Florida did this year -- so the party does not end up making up new rules in the middle of the campaign.

    I thought there were clear rules.  They weren't followed.

    Rotating regional primaries (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by davnee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:28:36 PM EST
    I'd support that so that there could be a primary process, as opposed to a one shot deal, which would really disadvantage relatively unknown candidates.  4 regions voting about a month-6 weeks apart.  That would also save candidates money and time with concentrated campaigning.  And all primaries of course.  No more caucuses.  And there should be pr for delegates, but with a significant slate of at-large bonus delegates that go to the winner so that a candidate that consistently wins states can pull ahead.

    rotating primaries (none / 0) (#162)
    by laurie on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 10:20:49 AM EST
     To quote Time mag Aug 2007

    "If a silver lining emerges from the Florida-DNC standoff, it might be a consensus on a new arrangement, like the rotating regional primary schedule endorsed by the National Association of State Secretaries of State — the people who actually have to run these elections."

    http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1656632,00.html

    I definitely feel that the calendar of the primaries should be taken out of the hands of the DNC, in order to avoid manipulation.

    Also believe that the system used should reflect that used in the GE-that is, if the President is chosen by electoral votes, then it should be based on electoral votes, if chosen by popular vote then based on the popular vote and so on.

    Having a GE based on electoral votes, and primaries based on a proportional voting system, is a contradiction in terms, and makes it more difficult to choose a winner.

    Would be nice to keep New Hampshire out of tradition....

    Parent

    National Primary Day is a bad idea... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by santarita on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:41:52 PM EST
    at least for now.  Over the last few months the remaining candidates have improved their skills and developed their thinking on the issues.  Obama was not very good in the first few debates but he learned.  Hillary was not a great stump speaker but she learned.  And the citizens evolved, too.  I think the NY Times idea was a good start.  

    Caucuses smack more of back room arm-twisting politics instead of democracy.  Get rid of them.  Superdelegates are not a bad idea as a check on mobocracy but tell them they can neither commit or endorse until the convention.  And any state that violates primary rules, punish them by cutting back the number of superdelegates but don't screw the voters.  And make it a rule that no superdelegate can appear as a guest commentator on media shows more than once a month unless they are an elected official.

    I agree (none / 0) (#120)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:24:59 PM EST

    A national primary day is a bad idea.  We lave a long process now, but we learn more about the candidates as a result.  

    Parent
    the dem always loses in November (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:54:24 AM EST
    always.

    Clinton in 1992 was an aberation who won inspite of the primary SYSTEM.

    Parent

    Is this the same NYT page... (5.00 / 8) (#47)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:51:48 PM EST
    ... that called counting FL and MI the nuclear option?

    The DNC definitely needs to fix the system somehow. Here are my suggestions.

    Caucuses have to go. Primaries only.

    Don't let the process go from January to June. If you do, don't fret and call for people to drop out because the process is going on for too long.

    Everyone who voted in favor of the Michigan delegate-stealing formula needs to go. They show an arrogance and anti-democratic nature that has no place in the DNC.

    Enough of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina.

    No more superdelegates. The popular vote split evenly, the pledged delegates split 51-48, but the superdelegates decided the race by splitting 55-45.

    No more of this nonsense about delegates per congressional district, and it being a big deal whether a district has an odd or even number of delegates. Statewide apportionment only.

    If Obama wins, we can use 2012 to test things, since nobody will seriously run against an incumbent president. Unless he screws up badly, in which case we have bigger problems.

    Not sure that'd be a good test. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Llelldorin on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:43:54 PM EST
    The current system seemed to work well enough until we hit a really close race. If Obama's elected this year, anything from caucuses to primaries to a nationally televised drinking competition will appear to work in 2012, since he won't face a serious challenge for the nomination.

    (Similarly, the old "state legislators name delegates" system seemed to work well enough until 1968.)

    Whatever we do, we have to game out how it'd work in various situations. What would happen in a tight two-way race with lots of regional heterogeneity, like this year's race? What about a three-way race? A race with a strong candidate that inspires a "stop Candidate X" backlash like 1988? I think the calls for winner-take-all primaries that I see above make that mistake: they try to "fix" this year's nomination process in a way that'd be a real mess in a three-way race.

    If we decide to eliminate caucuses (which we frankly should), we also need to work out two crucial details: How do we pay from primaries in states that aren't willing to run them out of their own funds? (We might have to work out some sort of in-party vote-by-mail system if states refuse to help.) How do we replace the party-building role that caucuses play? (Remember, in red states, caucuses give you an opportunity to actually meet fellow Democrats. Primaries are much fairer, but they're also very isolating.)


    Parent

    worked well enough (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by RalphB on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:06:03 PM EST
    2 winners in 40 years is working well?

    Parent
    Some people might say (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:11:57 PM EST
    that 12 out of 40 isn't horrible.

    But then, of course, eight years out of the 12 have now been trashed by the powers-that-be.  (We'll not talk about the remianing four.)

    It's really quite stunning.

    Parent

    Well, what's the goal? (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by Llelldorin on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:07:26 PM EST
    What is the goal of the system, to pick a winner or to pick someone who reflects the will of Democratic voters? Those aren't necessarily the same goal!

    The pre-'68 system was designed to pick winners, and to hell with the will of the voters. If we were still in the pre-'68 system, neither Obama nor Clinton would even have been considered. Why take a chance on a woman or a black man when there are "safer" choices?

    The current system appeared to more or less reflect the will of the voters until this year. The problem this year is that it didn't just reflect the party split--it actually amplified it due to the arbitrary way that the rules were imposed, and due to the total hash that the superdelegates made of their role (they managed to deeply offend both sides at various points through the campaign, and totally failed to fulfill their intended rôle in diffusing intraparty feuds).

    Parent

    Mail-ins over caucasses... (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:13:16 PM EST
    would achieve at least three important concerns: 1. avoid the expense of a primary for smaller states; 2. would be more voter-inclusive, give the opportunity to workers on a schedule, elderly, handicapped, etc.; 3. it would give the individual voter time to reflect on which candidate represents her/his views and vote accordingly.

    It seems to work for Oregon, why couldn't it work for them (the smaller states)?

    Parent

    Notice how the NYTimes' (5.00 / 9) (#62)
    by frankly0 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:14:21 PM EST
    declaration now to clean up the democracy problem with caucuses didn't come until after Obama was installed as nominee?

    Heaven forfend that they should come out strongly against caucuses before the event took place.

    You know when I heard that kind of argument before? When the Bush team made it in 2000, declaring that we can straighten up the whole hanging chad thing in the next election. Wouldn't be fair to do it in this one!

    These phonies really do make me sick. It's not enough that they enable terribly unjust things. It's that they insist on pretending afterwards that they are really concerned about reforming the abuses -- just next time.

    What was that prayer of St. Augustine's? "Please, Lord, make me chaste, but not just yet"?

    what were they going to do? (none / 0) (#68)
    by Y Knot on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:30:57 PM EST
    after super Tuesday get out there and say "yeah, you know what? We know caucuses have been around for a long time... But we didn't think they would actually affect thungs this year. What say we just discount them all?"

    You can't change the rules of a contest mid-way through it.  That way leads to anarchy.  

    Parent

    Spoken like a member of (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by frankly0 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:49:25 PM EST
    the Bush team in 2000.

    In fact, of course, the Democrats already had in place the rules to enable the superdelegates to choose the popular vote leader and/or the most electable candidate.

    How many of these fine members of the editorial board were advocating for the use of the popular vote by the superdelegates?

    Maybe none?

    Parent

    The NYT isn't the government (none / 0) (#148)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:08:26 PM EST
    They have no power to change anything.  They could easily have been for reform without advocating changing it this instant.

    Parent
    That's a good point (none / 0) (#155)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:03:48 AM EST
    The reality is that they clearly didn't want to upset the perception of the fairness of the caucuses until they had their desired effect: installing Obama as the nominee.

    Only afterwards did they think it was acceptable to bring up the point which surely they must grant they knew perfectly well before Obama became nominee: that caucuses were profoundly anti-democratic.

    They simply chose not to do so, lest they interfere with their sought for result.

    Parent

    My simple plan (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by D Jessup on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:28:14 PM EST
    1.  Get rid of Caucuses.
    2.  Have a 50 state lottery on December 15, in which you pick 4 or 5 states to have an election every 2 weeks until all the states have voted. Start the election cycle the first Saturday in Feburary.
    3. No SDs


    Getting rid of caucuses, (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:32:43 PM EST
    after what happened in this primary, is a really good idea.

    Copycat crimes can then be avoided.  :)

    Parent

    Any system where (5.00 / 6) (#100)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:57:28 PM EST
    the republicans can control the primary dates and cross party lines to chose a nominee they'll vote against later is screwy.

    FL Dems did not have control of the FL primary yet FL Dems paid.

    In so many states anyone could caucus or vote in a Dem primary. That might get a better crossover candidate but it also dilutes the party's need to select someone based on our values.

    Hear hear (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by lilburro on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:06:36 PM EST
    we have to find a way to ensure that Republicans cannot eff us over again.

    Parent
    Amileoj (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Amileoj on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:53:18 PM EST
    Abandoning both caucuses and automatic delegates would, of course, be a huge step forward.  But the truly crucial reform is one that is barely hinted at in the Editorial:

    The Democratic rules are, in their own way, poorly designed to translate votes into delegates.

    Indeed.  But this is no side issue--it is the fundamental flaw in the present nomination process.  As currently designed, that process all but guarantees an unrepresentative result.  Under such conditions, an appeal to the "will of the people"--which should be dispositive in all cases--becomes just another talking point to argue over.

    Here is the crux of the issue: while Democratic-style proportional allocation is indeed more representative in principle than GOP-style first-past-the-post allocation, the actual delegate allocation in the Democratic nomination is grotesquely unequal as between the voters of differnt states.  All the mischief stems from this.

    The remedy is simple: allocate delegates at the conclusion of all nominating contests, in proportion to actual voter turnout in those contests.

    Think all this accomplishes.  

    At a single stroke, the almighty importance of the calendar (or rather of the earliest slots in the calendar) vanishes.  Given any calendar, it becomes possible to imagine winning strategies that bypass the early states (if they are unfavorable to a particular candidate) and focus on driving up turnout in later ones.  Every candidate can hope to construct their own personal "Super Tuesday".  

    Secondly, one of two things happens to the troublesome, massively unrepresentative caucuses:  caucus states either opt for primaries, thereby at least giving themselves a chance to generate a turnout sizable enough to give their state a voice in the process proportional to its population, or else they maintain their caucuses (without explicit penalty or punishment from the party) but fade into insignificance, as their puny turnout numbers cause candidates to pass them up for better pickings elsewhere.

    No other reform being contemplated can accomplish so much good, with so little enforcement cost.

    If you participated in a caucus this season (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:04:47 PM EST
    and it was not the norm, then you know why people complain about this process.In Tx, we didn't even caucus in the sense I believe they were established to operate, they disenfranchise the one person, one vote (secretly)manifest and they are very unreliable and easy to steal and game (or not!). But, I believe the "party" does not wish one person, one vote method. They cannot control that as much as a caucus. And, judging my this primary, they want just that, control!!!

    Rotations (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Alec82 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:06:15 PM EST
    That's all I ask for.  Caucuses, primaries, I don't care.  

     NO regional primaries.  I don't want Dixiecrats to dominate.  Or New Englanders, for that matter.  No, rather, rotating primaries would do.

     Here:

     50 states.

     10 dates.

     5 states per date (figure out the territories later).

     Rotation 1: MI, IA, NV, HI, LA

     Rotation 2: WA, KS, FL, OH, MA

     Rotation 3: AK, OK, OH, NY, SC

     Rotation 4: OR, TX, IL, CT, VA

     etc.

     I want more regional diversity than what we have now.

    And (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by kaleidescope on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:01:27 AM EST
    The Democrats should impose serious campaign spending and contribution limits for their primaries.  Candidates should not be allowed to accept any more than $200 from any contributor, they should not be allowed to accept PAC money from other politicians and we should seriously consider whether bundling should be allowed.

    No, because kos flip-flopped on caucuses, (4.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:39:07 PM EST
    and he gets the final word on what's fair.

    Clinton didn't complain (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by lgm on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:51:54 PM EST
    Clinton didn't complain about not counting Michigan or Florida until she was losing.  She agreed to the process in the beginning.  

    The NYTimes endorsed Clinton.  They were not pulling for Obama.  They waited with the editorial until the process was finished for this year because you shouldn't change the rules after the votes.

    It's important that the primaries start small so small candidates have a chance to build support.  Obama would have lost if large primaries had come early because Clinton had the party with her in the beginning.  

    Um. (5.00 / 6) (#109)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:14:00 PM EST
    Clinton didn't complain about not counting Michigan or Florida until she was losing.

    Care to rephrase that comment?  We all know what she said and when she said it.

    Parent

    Has any DNC leader (none / 0) (#9)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:51:45 PM EST
    publicly said the system needs to change?

    One voter per vote is a new concept. (none / 0) (#26)
    by wurman on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:17:54 PM EST
    The one "man" & one vote idea is an addendum to the constitutional idea of a "republican" form of government guaranteed to the states.  Created by the Supreme Court, circa 1960 and years following--from the Warren court--it was applied to various state legislatures.

    The constitutional make-up of the US Congress is not one vote per voter in any manner.  As all know, CA has 2 senators, so does WY.  DC has none!

    In the House, the Congressional Districts are apportioned, but there are states with a representative who don't have enough citizens to be a district.  Perhaps AL, certainly ND, VT,  and WY (& DC) don't have as many residents as the average US Congressional District.  The DC member, however, cannot vote.

    The overall idea of "one person, one vote" has merit as suffrage, but not much traction in terms of politics.  Trying to convince a senator from Delaware that arithmetical apportionment within the Democratic Party nomination process is a truly great idea may not play very well.

    Not all that long ago, the state legislatures sort of "appointed" US senators (changed by the 17th amendment, 1913, applied for election of 1914).

    Secret ballot may have a testy road to travel, also.  The Town Meeting concept is alive & well in many places.  The concept of "stand up & be counted" is powerful among city councils, county commissions, state legislatures & the US congress.  A secret ballot is not necessarily a neutral, self-evident idea among politicians who are accustomed to their own public procedures.

    For these 2 reasons, eliminating caucuses may not find a whole-hearted "endorsement" by the power structure of the Democratic Party.

    I'm not advocating one way or the other about geographical representation or voice voting (or "divide the house" to stand & be counted) as preferred methods in a nomination process.  My point is that such concepts are not automatically or inherently favored by the party regulars, many of whom function constantly in a very different way of doing things.

    Obama and his political people run the party now (none / 0) (#28)
    by cygnus on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:19:33 PM EST
    Are they going to start slamming the very caucus system that allowed them to strong-arm their way into power?  Get real.


    We'll see come November 5 (4.66 / 3) (#38)
    by massdem on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:36:48 PM EST
    I think of Obama loses to McCain, then the DNC has no choice but to take a second look at a system that always seems to result in a weaker GE candidate for us, while the Republican winner take all system seems to work great for them.

    Parent
    A few thoughts ... (none / 0) (#29)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:20:43 PM EST
    I expect more CYA articles like these from the press in the future.

    Haven't thought about this much, but off the top of my head:

    1. We could get rid of delegates and the party conventions owing to their environmental impact.
    2. It's really silly to have both caucuses AND primaries as some states do -- make the process(es) uniform.
    3. Jeralyn's quoted article on caucuses vs. primaries was sobering. Even though fixing that is not going to be easy, I'd like to see something tried to ensure that a vote in state X compares favorably to a vote in state Y.
    4. Donating money from one candidate's PACs to other SD's should not be allowed. Better yet, consider eliminating SD's altogether.
    5. Sources of internet donations should be made public, including names of donors and places of employment, and affiliations.
    6. More radical perhaps: if corporations can insist on BOD's being outsiders -- we could consider that the rules committees should not be staffed by insiders. They should be elected or appointed on a rotating basis by the Judiciary. No back-doors should be allowed in terms of political appointee plum-jobs.
    7. In terms of schedules - fixed state orderings don't seem right. Rotations have their problems too -- can you imagine IA having to wait out next 50 election cycles? A lottery + bidding system might be in order.


    I am not sure any of our officials would be (none / 0) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:30:38 PM EST
    able to even fathom how to work within those parameters.  This goes against everything they know, even though they are currently wrong as hell.

    Parent
    All donors over $200/cycle are already public (none / 0) (#35)
    by MikeDitto on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:35:25 PM EST
    Whether they come form the Internet or not. The FEC doesn't make any distinction as to whether a contribution came online or in person.

    Parent
    Here's an idea (none / 0) (#34)
    by MikeDitto on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:31:14 PM EST
    I just came up with it, so it could be full of holes...

    Have caucuses in 50 states, spread out from Jan-May. Caucuses are important for state legislative races, the platform, electing precinct committee people, etc. Have a preference poll at the caucuses, but it's nonbinding. Allow some reasonable sort of absentee or proxy voting for the caucuses, though the importance is reduced somewhat since it's nonbinding.

    Then, the first Tuesday in June, we have a national, simultaneous, binding primary. States can optionally make that the primary day for all races, not just president (and most likely would because it's a cost saver to combine them).

    Super D's don't get to vote unless there's not a 50%+1 winner of the national primary. When they do vote, their vote carries a weight that's calculated on some proportion of caucus and primary turnout in the district or state they represent.

    So essentially, the caucuses would be where business gets done downticket and for party stuff, and they'd also be the horse race in terms of momentum and earned media for the presidentials, but the vote that counts doesn't belong to Iowa and New Hampshire, people can absentee vote, etc.

    An added level of urgency could be added for the candidates and supporters to participate in that candidates who are not 30% viable in a state's caucus don't make it onto the state's national primary ballot. Candidates who are over 10% but under 30% can petition on, and candidates under 10% are screwed (so we don't end up with 50 people on the ballot in June).

    Just spewing streams of consciousness here...

    Some good points, but (none / 0) (#36)
    by s5 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:36:24 PM EST
    If we're going to spend the next four years or so on an electoral process soul searching mission, why not put all that energy towards fixing / getting rid of the electoral college? The electoral college is the furthest thing from one person, one vote, and unlike the party nomination process, it's a real, constitutionally mandated election with higher stakes.

    It seems like after the 2000 fiasco, there was a lot of screaming to do something about it, and now it's fizzled out. I would hate to think that the party nomination process is going to get all the reform oxygen from here on out. And while I think it's important to improve the party nomination process, parties are essentially private clubs. The case for fixing their selection process is far less compelling than fixing the real election that takes place in November.

    I hope people improve the Democratic party nomination process, but I also hope that we don't lose sight of the more important task of fixing or eliminating the electoral college.

    No Reason We Can't Do Both (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Blue Jean on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:18:56 PM EST
    But I doubt we're going to see any progress in elimating the EC until it's a Republican who gets shafted by it.

    For now, Hillary has the clout to undo what Jesse Jackson did in '88.  In exchange for foregoing a floor fight at the convention, he wanted the Byzantine "proportional representation" clusterfrak we've got now.  If I were Hillary, I'd say I want;

    No caucauses: secret ballots only.

    Closed primaries.  Only Dems vote.

    Winner take all.

    Any state that moves up get 1/2 of its delegates taken away.  No more, no less, no arguments.

    If your name's not on the ballot, you get zero votes.  Write ins are allowed, but you'd need at least 10,000 write ins to get a delegate.

    Super-D's only vote if there is less than 2% difference between the two leading candidates.

    And I like the idea of a rotating Tuesday lottery too.

    Now, I don't expect to get all that, but I hope she asks for at least the "winner take all" and the closed primaries.  That would shut the door on most of the system gaming that happened this go round.

    Parent

    Amen (none / 0) (#43)
    by MikeDitto on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:43:10 PM EST
    Though we are more likely to be able to achieve reform in our primary process since that involves party rule changes, not legislation (let alone a Constitutional Amendment).

    Parent
    Not regional and not national (none / 0) (#46)
    by Cherokee on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:51:22 PM EST
    A national primary would prohibitively benefit the candidate with the highest initial name recognition, which could have horrific unintended consequences.

    Regional primaries could end up favoring niche candidates with little national appeal.

    So here are my thoughts:

    No more caucuses.  Although the one Missouri caucus I attended (at 18, when I supported Ted Kennedy over Jimmy Carter) was extremely exciting, and although they tend to favor insurgent candidacies, which can sometimes be a good thing, the process should be made as inclusive as possible.  Period.

    Rotating order for primaries, randomized to the greatest extent possible while maintaining the concept that states which have gone first in one election cycle may not do so in the next.

    Primary days should be limited to bite-sized chunks of no more than five, or at most seven states.

    Popular vote should determine the winner.

    There should be no SDs.

    There would have to be a draconian and absolutely codified penalty for any state which departed from this system.

    Good luck in making it happen, though.

    I liked that every state (none / 0) (#69)
    by ap in avl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:32:41 PM EST
    had the attention of the candidates this year.

    I think the voters appreciated that as well.

    I really don't know what I'm talking about here so please forgive me for my ignorance.  But what if we eliminated caucuses and had primaries staged every Tuesday from Jan thru the end of May with 4 or so randomly (lottery style) states chosen for each Tuesday.

    Eliminating the caucuses would remove the disenfranchisement inherent in that system.  And choosing 4 states at random for a primary each Tuesday would remove the bias inherent in selecting specific states for their early results.

    My concern about a National Primary Day is that many states wouldn't get the attention of the candidates.  And as we saw in this primary season, the need to campaign in 50 states showed us a very different reflection of the will of the voters than we would have had if we had only used the biased early state sample.

    Maybe this is ridiculous, but thought I would throw my two cents in......

    Totally hate the idea (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:34:08 PM EST
    of a National Primary Day.  That's a disaster in the making.

    Parent
    You're not going (none / 0) (#76)
    by pie on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:00:50 PM EST
    to be able to influence a good number of voters with ugly stuff about McCain, because

    he's a republican.

    Obama will have to win over a voting bloc consisting of dems, indies, and some republicans in order to beat him.

    Obama will.  Not you people on the blogs.

    My thoughts (none / 0) (#79)
    by GeorgiaE on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:05:33 PM EST
    I am not politically savvy and appreciate and enjoy reading Talk Left.  As a former CNN blogger, I left wounded and totally ticked off.  My thoughts are as follows:  Caucuses should go, superdelegates should go, and cross over voting (?) should be banned.  I believe that the Republicans set up their rules for primaries with the #1 thought that Democrats will not be able to participate.  Shouldn't we use the same thoughts to set up our primary rules.  How is it that Republicans can register as a Democrat for 1 day and vote in our primaries??  Please help me understand this..Thank You


    The states control party registration (none / 0) (#83)
    by Joan in VA on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:22:18 PM EST
    and voting requirements for primaries. Some states have no party registration at all. The Repubs don't control it any more than the Dems do except either can where they have enacted state law to do so. The states are resistant to change so it will be extremely difficult to obtain uniformity. The only thing that keeps the primaries from total chaos crossover voting is that everyone only gets one vote so if you try to mess with the other party, you don't have a vote in your own.

    Parent
    Thank you, Joan (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by GeorgiaE on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:04:03 PM EST
    I wasn't aware of that.  I live in Ohio and I guess the best way to understand a lot of this is to check on my state's polices/rules. I'm 61 years old and I can still learn a lot!!

    Parent
    That's where a national primary (none / 0) (#89)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:34:17 PM EST
    in two tiers would fix it. You should google the French presidential system. It produces fairly good candidates on both sides  Conservative/socialist and stops extremists cold in any second round.

    They've been doing it like that since the late sixties and they have never had to constitute another Republic after that reform.

    Parent

    It's not a perfect system (none / 0) (#95)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:49:09 PM EST
    And with any method, we're going to run into Arrow's impossibility theorem.

    Parent
    I'll start googling Salo, (none / 0) (#106)
    by GeorgiaE on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:09:46 PM EST
    Thanks for the info.  With all of this help, maybe I will become "polically savvy".  Take Care,

    Parent
    Oops, (none / 0) (#107)
    by GeorgiaE on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:11:29 PM EST
    I meant "politically savvy".  I'm a little excited to be included! (smile)

    Parent
    and how big (none / 0) (#117)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:14:21 PM EST
    is France compared to the US?  A national electionin most European countries would be more like a state election in the US

    Parent
    France (none / 0) (#121)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:26:17 PM EST
    France has an area of about 550 000 square km and a population of 60 million.  

    California has an area of about 425,000 square km and a population of 35 million. New York has an area of about 140,000 square km and a population of 19,000.

    Campaigning for six weeks (devoting all of your resources) in these two states would be a lot more feasible than trying to do the same thing for the entire US.

    France also has parlimentary political system that can't really be compared to ours.  The power of the parties, party leaders and local candidates are all different.

    Parent

    direct presidential elections. (none / 0) (#143)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:50:42 PM EST
    They are not a parliamentary nation.  60 million voters.   That's big enough. Roll Cal and NY together and you get the idea. They also have UHC and a decent foreign policy establishment.  So you all suffer with your libertarian world view and your fake wing party, kids.

    Yeah kids suffer your Bush and Reagan for the sake of god only knows what poltical claptrap you like.  Suffer your fools gladly.

    Parent

    You're right (none / 0) (#153)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:34:50 PM EST
    They don't have a PM, they have a president.

    Parent
    My crazy ideas (none / 0) (#80)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:18:55 PM EST
    Though I like the idea of caucuses and don't have any great problems with the way the primaries were run, here's my ideas for reform:

    (1) Get rid of the superdelegates.

    (2) Start slow. Have the first 3-4 weeks of primaries in small states so as limit the effect of money and name recognition.

    (3) Make the first few primaries diverse. Include voices from diverse regions and diverse people.

    (4) Limit early voting to something like 2 weeks before the primary.  Lots of folks voted before the candidates had a chance to campaign in their states.  If you don't, you sort of defeat the purpose of campaigning and the candidate with name recognition will have an even greater benefit.

    (5) If you to start counting popular vote, you have to find some way to weight the value of caucuses and open vs closed primaries.  You'd also have to find a way to keep candidates from just camping out in the big states.

    (6) Institute some cut and dry penalty for big states that try to "cut in line" that is neither too small to ignore nor too large to keep in place.  The reason why MI and FL were such a political football this season were that (a) the penalty couldn't be enforced and (b) the primary season lasted long enough and was close enough that their delegations couldn't have been seated as-is without affecting the outcome of the race.

    i don't see any reason to weight (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:18:06 PM EST
    a caucus for popular vote at all.  If your state wants to have a caucus which disenfrachises many voters, you shouldn't then be rewarded by allowing some formula to give you a larger popular vote number than those that actually participated.

    If a state does have a caucus, they should be required to actually COUNT and REPORT to number of voters who participated.

    I believe caucuses should be outlawed unless they provide for absentee ballots.

    Parent

    Well, you're probably right. (none / 0) (#129)
    by clapclappointpoint on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:51:09 PM EST
    If you want to run a primary contest determined by popular vote, including caucuses at all would probably be a bad idea and it would be really problematic to try to weight them.

    The argument I was trying to make was that they way in which you hold a primary, as determined by state parties and state legislatures, can have big impact on the turnout.  Open (D,I,R) vs modified (D,I) vs closed (D) primaries, same day registration, vote by mail, voter ID laws, etc all have a significant impact.

    The point of determining an election by popular vote is to determine the intent and the degree of motivation of the (Democratic) electorate.  You don't get this unless you eliminate those effects.

    Parent

    small states magnify the money problem. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 11:00:55 PM EST
    A nationaal day would allow a regional canddiate to break out.    A Californian favourite son or a Southerner could make a play in one area.

    Small state couterintuitively allow cash to dominate the process. It magnifies the endorsement of a local newspaper or political pundit.

    Parent

    Reward voter turnout (none / 0) (#86)
    by DaveOinSF on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:24:12 PM EST
    It'll be difficult getting all the states to agree to anything.  What the DNC can do is tie the number of delegates awarded to the number of people who participate in a nominating event.  Use the number of votes for the party's presidential nominee in the previous presidential election as a baseline.  If a state wants to be relevant, it'll be forced to move toward a primary rather than a caucus.

    Well that's it then (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edgar08 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:45:02 PM EST
    Crap produced crap.


    you know what (none / 0) (#99)
    by sas on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:55:18 PM EST
    too effin little, too effin late

    the least worthy person will likely be the nominee

    the American system of voting is AWFUL....and yes, I mean to shout.....the delegate /electoral college system SUCKS BIG TIME

    why vote....it is rigged against us

    why vote?? (none / 0) (#112)
    by GeorgiaE on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:39:31 PM EST
    My husband has been saying that for years and it makes my skin crawl..Can't we work together to try to make it better??  I'm an African American female and my vote is sooooo important to me....My husband viewed this campaign as the biggest fraud in the world, (Hillary supporters from day one) and keeps saying, "why vote, why vote, why vote"??

    Parent
    The fix (none / 0) (#105)
    by samtaylor2 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:09:05 PM EST
    I think the bigger problem is just 1 day of voting, no same day registation in many states and the removal of the right to vote for thousands of people do to their fellony status.  Extend the time to a week.  Same day registration should be law.  Serve your time, you should be able to vote again.   To me these are much bigger issues then caucus problems.  These would be true reforms that would allow everyone to vote.

    Party Primary Scheduling Fiasco (none / 0) (#115)
    by cal1942 on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:00:56 PM EST
    Caucuses should be banned.  States should be allocated delegates strictly by population and delegates awarded based on percentage of the whole won statewide rather than by Congressional District.

    To eliminate ALL scheduling conflicts there should be NO Presidential only primaies.  

    Presidential selection should be on the same ballot and held at the same time as the primaries that select all other candidates for public office.  Costs would be reduced by eliminating at least one statewide election and even in states that do not have party registration, crossovers would be minimized because the primary would select ALL candidates for public office. Even in a year with an incumbent President running for re-election, crossovers would be minimized because candidates for all public offices are selected.

    No party central committee could botch primary date selection nor impose imbecilic penalties because the dates of the primaries would be a matter of state statute. An example is Michigan which held a Presidential Primary on January 15 but will hold a primary to select candidates for all other public offices on August 5th.  August 5th is a bit late and there's no reason that date can't be moved up a month or more. People who've decided to run for even low level offices usually know they'll run by mid-spring.

    By the end of June delegates will have been selected in each state in plenty of time to hold national conventions by the end of July or early August. There's really no need to have a Presidential race lasts more than two months.

    Statewide Primaries would likely be held no earlier than April, shortening the whole process considerably.  Reducing the entire process from announcing candidacy to election in November by  several months.  It would be possible to announce a candidacy much later in the prior year and for that reason reduce costs.  Reducing the cost to run for President could reduce some of the chronic corruption in our political system.

    Really off topic but (none / 0) (#137)
    by Monda on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:35:25 PM EST
    I was watching tonight Iron Jawed Angels.  

    .... sight, still waiting.

    busted for other reasons. (none / 0) (#144)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:55:36 PM EST
    The Party has not pushed for single payer, the party has not pushed for an ethical foreign policy.  I see a party wrapped around the careers of our party elders and not wrapped around policy principle.    The primary leadership election should produce Single Payer leaders.  It's a massive con game.  Nothing to do with Clinton btw.

    It's also failed to produce winners over the last 40 years.   Had Jesse Jackson run in 1992 Tsongas would have been the nominee and Bush would have had a second term going into 1996 and Clinto would be an oddity and footnote.  He won inspite of the calendar and the rolling set up--not because the primary system is functional...

    Put the actual delegates' names on the ballot (none / 0) (#156)
    by Calvados on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:19:15 AM EST
    The names of the potential nominees for president in the general election should not be a consideration in the primary,

    I'm guessing this is a minority view in a room full of direct-democracy advocates, but this is a representative-democracy process.

    If we are going to have a convention, then the primary process should result in each state selecting the delegates best able to represent the state party's views at the national convention.

    We would then delegate the responsibility of vetting and selecting a nominee to the delegates.  We could even pay them to spend a great deal of time doing that research and interviewing the nominees.

    This eliminates both the problem that marketing tends to be the dominant factor in national campaigns and the problem that Iowa and New Hampshire are disproportionately influential.  The primaries could be held in any order or all on the same day.  A great candidate would need to convince just a few delegates before the convention but could stand a low-budget chance at the convention.

    The popularity contest system really does seem to benefit the best marketed candidate regardless of other qualifications.

    the gop are very direct (none / 0) (#159)
    by Salo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:57:17 AM EST
    and they win. Alot.

    Parent
    Fixing Caucuses (none / 0) (#157)
    by yokem55 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 12:52:21 AM EST
    While I certainly appreciate the problems caucuses have, I don't think they are insurmountable. The availability of absentee participation can be mandated, and secret voting can be made the default (a caucus goer could still opt to vote publicly), all while making sure the people running the caucuses have a certain amount of training in running a big meeting.