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Bad Political Analysis

There is no point to this post other than to point out how bad the so called political punditry can be. For years, Amy Sullivan, has been one of the worst imo. And that probably explains why she is a Time columnist now. And she continues to be bad. Look at this column. It may have a point to it but the obtuseness of the analysis just irks me. Sullivan writes:

One of the Democratic campaign's great misperceptions has been that Clinton held an overwhelming advantage among women voters. But that isn't the case. As expected, Clinton captured the over-65 vote, and Obama won over younger women. But women in the middle split almost evenly between the two. And while both Senators boasted historic candidacies, Obama's seemed to resonate more deeply, translating into 70%, 80% and even 90% of the black vote in primary contests. No one expected Clinton to sweep 90% of Democratic women voters, but 60% wouldn't have been an unreasonable accomplishment for the first woman to have a serious chance of winning the presidency. Instead, Clinton won just over a majority of women's votes. . . .[W]omen themselves cost her the nod. The reasons more women haven't voted for Clinton tell us something about the evolution of feminism and what the future may hold for female politicians.

What is wrong with this picture? Hint: some African Americans are women. Psst, Amy, if African American women were, say 25% of the female vote in the primaries and Obama won 90% of them, then it becomes hard to win 60% of the TOTAL women's vote. Sheesh. More . . .

Let me give you an example. In North Carolina, white women voted for Hillary by 65-33. African American women voted for Obama by 90-7. So how do you think the total women's vote turned out? OBAMA won the women's vote by 55-43.

So how would YOU explain Clinton's failure to capture a larger share of the women's vote. A sensible person would think - hmmm, African American women voted for Obama by 9-1. That seems to explain it. Not for Sullivan:

Clinton's run has exposed a divide between what could be termed optimist and pessimist feminists. It's a split between those who see Clinton's candidacy as groundbreaking--as the first of many serious runs by strong women--and those who count backward to Geraldine Ferraro in 1984 and conclude that this kind of opportunity comes along only once in a generation. For this latter group, Clinton's candidacy took on a pressing urgency: If not now, when? If not her, who?

Um, unless Sullivan means African American women are optimist feminists, Sullivan has not proven her case. And I actually think there may data that would make Sullivan's smaller point - that SOME demographics of white women were not as committed to Clinton - white women 18-29, upper income white women, higher educated white women. But we can not know how those number split.

Unfortunately, I do not have exit polls that provide data for white women under 30 that divides them by income, education or other factors. So this is speculation on my part. And I would NEVER have written what Sullivan wrote without finding out more.

My point is this is typical political punditry - ill informed, ill researched and ignoring the obvious. In this case, Sullivan ignores a central fact critical to whatever percentage of the women's vote Clinton and Obama got - the fact that African American women went overwhelmingly for Obama - in order to write the narrative she wanted to write - that there is a deep generational split among women. There may be. Personally I doubt it is that deep. But I DO know there was a deep split among white women and African American women - the deepest split you could find in ANY demographic.

The title of Sullivan's piece is "Why Didn't More Women Vote For Hillary?" The BEST answer to that question is because a large segment was African American.

But that is not the column Amy Sullivan wanted to write or that Time wanted to publish, so she played dumb, or is dumb, with the facts. That is something I can not stand about political pundits. They write their narratives and then make up the facts after. And Sullivan ALWAYS does that. Always. She is just awful.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    Holy Batsh!t BTD (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:43:27 PM EST
    How can the publisher let this crap get out into the ether?  And the Times should post your piece in rebuttal, in all fairness!

    TIME (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:48:26 PM EST
    is still being published?
    what a waste of trees.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:55:20 PM EST
    Well to be fair, it does keep Joe Klein in captivity so there is some good about it.  After all, we don't want him released to the wild.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    true enough (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    he might breed

    [ Parent ]
    No anything but that!!! (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:15:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    avoiding that (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:49:39 PM EST
    has forced people to play dumb, yes.

    [ Parent ]
    Edgar....that would be a great big huge, (none / 0) (#112)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:34:20 PM EST
    fantastically large, ginormous YES....

    [ Parent ]
    I don't any of us are really that surprised (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by IzikLA on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:59:09 PM EST
    I mean, at this point, I've completely lost count of the amount of articles I've read that are skewed in a similar manner.  And yes, basically all of them are about negating Clinton or her support.

    It's part of the narrative, don't you know.

    [ Parent ]

    exactly; the bias is extraordinary (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:23:41 PM EST
    My gut told me from the title not to bother reading this piece. Thanks for explaining how my gut got this one right, BTD.

    Now if there were just enough antacids in the world....

    [ Parent ]

    It's easy. (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:43:19 PM EST
    bjorn: "How can the publisher let this crap get out into the ether?"

    All you have to do is click here, and then here, and voila! In mere moments, utter nonsense is flung at the general public, not unlike those mountain gorillas at the L.A. County Zoo, who so delight in slinging poo at the human audience that gathers daily outside their enclosure.

    (My sincere apologies to any gorillas at the L.A. Zoo who take offense at the general comparison.)

    [ Parent ]

    With all respect, BTD, lilly white Oregon (2.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:24:57 PM EST
    voted Obama over Clinton, and Oregon's population is less than one percent AA.

    The title of Sullivan's piece is "Why Didn't More Women Vote For Hillary?" The BEST answer to that question is because a large segment was African American.

    Vote by Gender Clinton Obama              
    Male (45%) 33% 66%              
    Female (55%) 48% 52%

    Vote by Age and Race Clinton Obama  
    White 18-29 (11%) 28% 72%              
    White 30-44 (22%) 36% 64%              
    White 45-59 (29%) 45% 54%              
    White 60 and Older (22%) 50% 49%
    Black 18-29 (0%) N/A N/A              
    Black 30-44 (1%) N/A N/A              
    Black 45-59 (1%) N/A N/A              
    Black 60 and Older (0%) N/A N/A

    [ Parent ]

    Those statistics show a (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:46:51 PM EST
    huge gender gap of 14 to 15 points.

    [ Parent ]
    So the artticle was about Oregon? (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:48:30 PM EST
    Mpt the US? With all due respect, give me an EFFING break.

    [ Parent ]
    Do those numbers hold up (none / 0) (#77)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:36:33 PM EST
    in any other lily white states? I believe Oregon, altho' probably correct statics is an anomaly.

    [ Parent ]
    That title rankles (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:44:43 PM EST
    I think this column is  another example of the editor not being smarter than the writer. When you get a situation like that, idiocy is likely.

    Here's a column no one will write: "Why didn't more white people vote for Obama?"

    they already know the answer (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:49:50 PM EST
    we are all howling racists.

    [ Parent ]
    And (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:50:59 PM EST
    Bill is a howling racist who deliberately lives in harlem.

    [ Parent ]
    it only because the (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:53:39 PM EST
    rent is cheap

    [ Parent ]
    Not any more (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CST on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:55:36 PM EST
    Don't you know the Clinton's are also responsible for Gentrification :)

    actually, that may be a little true but I doubt it was intentional

    [ Parent ]

    Isn't (none / 0) (#164)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 09:07:55 PM EST
    just about all of Manhattan now gentrified?

    Don't actually know.  Just asking.

    [ Parent ]

    I howl for the dog whistles (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:59:45 PM EST
    I brake for animals too. If that make me a B!tch, so be it.

    [ Parent ]
    Better trolls please (none / 0) (#173)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:29:28 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Even, perhaps, in November? (none / 0) (#8)
    by pie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:46:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I hope they won't have to. (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:48:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Heh... (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:50:50 PM EST
    Shorter Amy Sullivan:

    "Hey, even the cows like her didn't vote for her, so quit yer b*itchin'!"

    Jackson

    quote of the day (none / 0) (#17)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:51:56 PM EST
    LOL

    [ Parent ]
    Remedial statistical analysis for Amy. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:52:48 PM EST
    That's why very few Clinton supporter were saying that Clinton wins the working class vote, and instead pointing out that she was winning the white working class vote.

    Although she may well have beaten Obama overall in the low income catatgories that constitute the working class vote in the US, for all I know.

    I would assume not (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:55:15 PM EST
    Obama won 85-90% of the African American vote.

    [ Parent ]
    Shorter Amy Sullivan (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:56:36 PM EST
    I don't DO math.  I'm creative, for gawl's sake!

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:59:34 PM EST
    Math is "fuzzy" for a lot of Villagers, just like their hero.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    I think it was Cream city who (none / 0) (#127)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:18:09 PM EST
    said that she had taught journalism students and their biggest problem courses were logic and statistics.  It figures.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm thoroughly sick of the assumption... (5.00 / 5) (#25)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:57:30 PM EST
    ...that the women who voted for Clinton did so just because she was a woman. It implies that we are so blind in our feminism that we are incapable of thinking rationally, and it is decried by the evidence: that many feminist womrn did not support Clinton. I don't even assume that all black people who supported Obama did so becasuse he is black - some did, others supported him for other reasons. It is insulting to a group of people to suggest that they are totally incapable of making rational decisions. Some people in every group will act out of personal bias, but that doesn't mean that there is some arbitrary number who will do so.

    Thank you dianem (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:04:22 PM EST
    There are plenty of reasons i see to negatively critique this election cycle, and sexism it seems is just one...

    [ Parent ]
    Remember Dan Quayle? (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:57:12 PM EST
    Conventional wisdom at the time was that women would vote for George Senior in droves because Quayle was so cute.

    After all, we all voted for Jack Kennedy because he was cute.

    I guess maybe we're making progress when they decide we vote out of solidarity and not glandular upset.

    [ Parent ]

    the only person (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by melonhead on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:54:37 PM EST
    who voted for dan quayle because he was "cute" was john aravosis.

    [ Parent ]
    I know people disagree with this (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:57:31 PM EST
    but I think Hillary got special treatment.  I know sexism exists and it played a part but the fact that it was Hillary was at least an equal part.
    I firmly believe that Amy and that wacked out "guys girl" at americablog and Arianna and all the rest would have been spitting fire if the things done to Hillary had been done to any other woman.
    just MO.


    Fact that is was Hillary (5.00 / 5) (#50)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:15:09 PM EST
    There's no way to prove it wasn't the fact that it was Hillary.  But two things to throw in the mix --

    -- A lot of people's longstanding hatred of Clinton has its root in sexism.  It's just that the hatred is of so longstanding that the origins are lost.  I remember how many people were incensed that she dare push her universal health care proposal, because First Ladies are not supposed to push political agendas.  It's ok if they do tv ads for noncontroversial good causes, that's all nice and feminine (literacy is popular, or the Red Cross).  Hillary stepped unforgiveabley outside the 'Lady' box and it drove people wild.

    -- how much of the criticism this year was gender-based.  And I don't mean just to obvious juvenile attacks, like the Kos people, but all the more subtle ones too.

    I disagree about the 'equally' part, although this isn't something that's measurable with precision.

    I wouldn't be so sure about the HuffPo not being as hard on any other woman.  Hillary is the only test case we have, really, because she's the only one to get so far.  The only example which comes close is Ferraro, and, um, look how that went.

    [ Parent ]

    still (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:27:52 PM EST
    show me a Ferrarro nutcracker

    [ Parent ]
    Er, I don't think the absence (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:39:26 PM EST
    of a Ferraro nutcracker proves the point that equal numbers of people didn't vote for Hillary because of reasons exclusive of sexism.  

    Not to mention, it would not surprise me in the least if they're not out there and I just haven't seen them.  Sigh.


    [ Parent ]

    all I am saying (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:48:47 PM EST
    is it is groupthink.  it is how the country has told itself that it can say anything about or do anything to either Clinton and its OK.
    its funny even.
    I keep bringing up the nutcracker because it is so "telling".
    try to imagine CNNs Gennie Moos doing a "funny" piece about a Michelle Obama nutcracker.
    doesnt work does it?  she would be fired the next day.


    [ Parent ]
    They went after Ferraro (none / 0) (#122)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:03:22 PM EST
    through her husband.  She was hardly in the picture.  Her husband was more important, and he was a (wink, wink, nod, nod) Italian businessman in NY.

    [ Parent ]
    Glad someone has said it (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:30:09 PM EST
    It may take a decade or two but I think that historians will trace some of the origin of CDS  back to sexism. In 1992, Hillary was seen as too powerful and Bill was seen as too willing to take  political input and advice from her.

    [ Parent ]
    I honestly think it has as much (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:36:21 PM EST
    to do with class as sex.  the Clintons have always been seen by the beltway social set as hicks. unqualified and undeserving of being where they were.  it was aggravated by Bill stiff arming the press early in his term.  they never forgave him.
    I could point to a million examples.  the political cartoon showing her and Bill as hillbillys sitting on the porch and being embarrasing to Chelsea comes to mind.
    it makes me angry and sick to my stomach.  I try not to think about it too much anymore.


    [ Parent ]
    For being supposed hicks, they exude and (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:52:22 PM EST
    show much more class than any of those beltway buffoons.

    [ Parent ]
    That is true (none / 0) (#91)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:48:18 PM EST
    and I'm not disagreeing with you, at least not all that much.

    Plus some things are so bad that comparing the fractional 'worseness' of them isn't meaningful anyway (I saw this even though I disagreed with your equally statement).

    I'm female and from a working class background.  I definitely felt more overtly attacked though, as the former.  Although Donna Brazile's bleating about how she has nobly sat down with 'Joe Six Pack' did got right up my back, I'll tell you.

    [ Parent ]

    It was Sally Quinn and her social (none / 0) (#132)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:26:13 PM EST
    circle that were outraged that the "hicks from Arkansas" would take over 'Her' town."  Gene Lyons and Joe Conason chronicled the whole story in "The Hunting of the President."  They were as vicious as the GOP.  How the Clintons lived through it I will never know.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't agree that Hillary got (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:29:46 PM EST
    special treatment. I think she may have had spotlighted coverage for her "historic venture" but they started in on her clothes and such instead of what she could bring to the office. I never once heard about any of the other candidates suits or ties (altho' color choice could have been better on some). I may have missed it,but HuffPo and Drudge didn't print pics of Obama very close up or from underneath, or as unflattering as possible? I thought that belonged to tabloid papers, not msm.

    [ Parent ]
    You might be right, but I am going (none / 0) (#32)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:00:16 PM EST
    to wait and see how the press covers Michelle Obama.  She is also a strong, opinionated woman.  Let's see who gets better coverage Cindy McCain or Michelle Obama or neither.

    [ Parent ]
    good point, bjorn (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:40:10 PM EST
    One reason I think Obama will not be elected is Michelle Obama. I liked her, as I like most strong women, until she pulled her "if you can't run your own house" business and "gee, I dunno if I'll campaign for Hillary or not; depends...." But generally I like strong, funny, smart, earthy, opinionated women like Michelle. Stepford Women like Laura Bush and Cindy McCain scare me, and I worry about them. How must it be to put yourself in a psychological corset every day and fasten on that smile?

    Unfortunately, I'm in the minority. It seems that  America tends to prefer that First Ladies be Stepford Women. The three most reviled First Ladies were Eleanor Roosevelt, Roslyn Carter, and Hillary Clinton--all strong advocates and obvious partners of their husbands, not helpmates or excessively groomed accessories. Michelle fits that Eleanor-Rosalyn-Hillary mold.

    I'm curious to see if she'll be cut a break because she's black--and if so, that's fine by me. We do tend to expect African American women to be stronger and more outspoken--as we do working class women in general (think about the old Roseanne show). So maybe Michelle's forthrightness will be less-off-putting than Teresa Heinz Kerry's was.

    If not, she's going to be a drag on Barack's candidacy not only because of her more incautious remarks ("For the first time in my adult life I'm proud of my country....") but because her style is too "forceful."

    Teresa had the same problem. I adored her, especially when she told the rightwing rag's editor to "shove it," but a lot of people found her off-puttingly "aggressive." It is truly disturbing that we seem to expect First Ladies to walk a few steps always behind their husbands. Those who don't are verbally stoned.

    [ Parent ]

    You forgot Betty Ford. (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:05:33 PM EST
    Three decades ago, Betty Ford was none too popular the GOP's increasingly conservative base.  I remember most of them took vigorous exception to her publicly expressed personal opinions as a then-parent of a teenaged daughter and three young adult sons, when she showed a level of frankness and understanding about pre-marital sex, abortion and marijuana that most progressives found refreshingly forthright.

    I imagine most of them also found similarly distasteful her continued honesty in her post-White House years, when she discussed openly about her own struggles with alcoholism and substance abuse, and used that experience to found the Betty Ford Center.

    Even today, I find that Democrats in general admire Mrs. Ford far more than do her fellow Republicans.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes! Thank you! How could I forget Betty. :) (none / 0) (#130)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:25:29 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    want to make any bets (none / 0) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:06:16 PM EST
    on the appearance of a Michelle nutcracker?


    [ Parent ]
    No doubt (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:00:50 PM EST
    and, when one compares the negative things she has said against anything Hillary has said, no one deserves a nutcracker more than Michelle does.

    I will never understand Clinton hatred.


    [ Parent ]

    When a pundit says something to the (none / 0) (#48)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:13:11 PM EST
    average voter or a columnist writes something in a magazine, it is interpreted to some as fact. I believe she did not particularly do research, just wants non-believers to believe and vote for Obama by saying well, look at all the women who voted for Obama, so it must not be a Clinton bloc of voters. "They" want everyone to "come home" I will not. I am independent, I am not a follower, I do not like rules (altho' I play by them when necessary) and I don't believe everything I read (except for postings by BTD, and I take them with a grain of salt!)

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure how to read this (none / 0) (#51)
    by suisser on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:16:40 PM EST
    Are you suggesting that Hilary has done specific things - written law or proposed policy or behaved in a private capacity in some manner that would make her deserve the mantel of "bit**" or witch or nut cracker?

    [ Parent ]
    absolutely not (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:26:12 PM EST
    I am saying that the entire country got used to using the Clintons as a toilet in the 90s and it has never stopped.
    for either of them.
    however I do agree with the comment above that a lot of the hate was originally rooted in sexism.
    but not all.

    [ Parent ]
    Was the hate rooted in sexism (none / 0) (#80)
    by suisser on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:37:52 PM EST
    or is sexism just an easy fall back weapon when you can't point to any legit criticism of the person?
    Which came first, the sexism or the hate? And why all the hate? I guess I really don't understand the basis for the hate directed at Hilary Clinton.  Perhaps that sounds naive, but I really have a hard time understanding what Hilary has done in her life's work to deserve this level of vitriol.

    [ Parent ]
    ditto (none / 0) (#87)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:43:39 PM EST
    it is a major mystery to me.

    [ Parent ]
    Same here. (none / 0) (#89)
    by pie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:44:44 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I kinda get it (none / 0) (#174)
    by otherlisa on Sat Jun 07, 2008 at 01:36:52 AM EST
    If your only exposure to Hillary was through the MSM filter, you'll have a pretty negative impression of her. I never was a Bill Clinton fan (I worked for Brown in '92) and was quite prepared to dislike Hillary in this election. It wasn't until the New Hampshire primary, when I actually was exposed to her in the debate without the media filter, that I began to get a glimpse of who she really is.

    So my prior dislike of her was not based on sexism, but because of an unexamined negative impression compounded by policy decisions of the Clinton presidency with which I did not agree (though after a few years of Bush, believe me, I gained a huge amount of appreciation for the Clinton years!).

    I just didn't really think much about why I thought I disliked her (beyond the war vote); I let the MSM create an impression, and it wasn't until I had my own first-hand experience to counter that that my opinion changed.

    [ Parent ]

    I'll read it... (2.00 / 0) (#61)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:24:31 PM EST
    they may be saying that neither obama or clinton walks on water and that while sexism is an obvious an easily pointed out fact, some (certainly not me) have legit gripes with her.

    [ Parent ]
    If those gripes include her AUMF vote, (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by pie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:32:03 PM EST
    it's quite enlightening to remember that they certainly didn't hold that vote against any of the other male democratic presidential candidates.

    Bob Graham was the only dem to vote against the AUMF and it certainly didn't help him in 2004.

    More crapola, frankly.

    [ Parent ]

    Minimal contrast in 2004 (none / 0) (#100)
    by Knocienz on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:59:27 PM EST
    There were plenty of folks that gave Kerry and Edwards crap over their AUMF vote. A lot of Howard Dean's early support came because he was against the war from early on (he just peaked too early and the rest of the field ganged up on him to remove that contrast from competition)

    Edwards made a big deal about his AUMF mia culpa early on in prep for his 2008 run and there were still folks that held it against him

    [ Parent ]

    you read it wrong. (none / 0) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:28:46 PM EST
    if you are talking about my comment.
    there is nothing legitimate about what has been done to the Clintons.
    I include both.

    [ Parent ]
    its an odd thing (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:20:26 PM EST
    can an AA progressive activist blogger spew racial slurs about michael Steele just because they want him to lose an election? I hope not.

    Has that ever happened?  

    [ Parent ]

    Well, yes actually. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Klio on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:42:19 PM EST
    Steve Gilliard, god rest his soul, got all sorts of heat when he photoshopped Steele in blackface, iirc.  And he called him Simple Sambo too.

    Not sure what point I wanted to make, but you reminded me of the ferocious Gilly and his outrageous Newsblog.  Gosh I miss him.

    [ Parent ]

    RIP Steve Gilliard (5.00 / 0) (#94)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:50:29 PM EST
    It was the one year anniversary of his parting a few days back.  I liked his no nonsense style.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    wow, that is an embarrassing article (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:59:39 PM EST
    You know, I blather on like an idiot without any facts, but I'm a commenter, that's my job. snark. So what's Amy's excuse? And what's the excuse of the rest of the buffoons? Where's my job at Time?

    Never Misunderestimate (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by The Maven on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:00:20 PM EST
    the ability of a political columnist -- whether part of the traditional or "new" media -- to betray a fundamental lack of understanding as to how to parse basic statistical data.  Another annoying false statistical meme taken up frequently of late was the exit polling data regarding voters who said that the race of a candidate was an important factor in determining their vote, and the columnists who immediately spun that directly into Clinton's support among the white racist vote.

    These hapless columnists never bothered to note that (1) the numbers were always about the same for the question asked about gender, (2) "an important factor" does not equate to the sole deciding factor, or (3) for those states with significant percentages of African-American voters, a higher proportion of those AA voters answered in the affirmative, which kind of throws their whole storyline off.

    The inability to account for subgroups in the polling data is going to lead more than a few of these same columnists to make faulty assumptions throughout the entire election season, and probably well beyond.  Remember how in the aftermath of the 2004 election so many of them pounced on the prevalence of the so-called "values voters" as proof that the only way for Democrats to compete against the GOP was for the party to make a hard swing to the right on social issues?  I don't recall any of the columnists coming back to say that they hadn't bothered to look a bit more closely at the data to determine what it might actually have meant.

    Sadly, it looks as though we're in for another round of hideously bad analysis.

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by chrisvee on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:10:20 PM EST
    We've transcended numeracy.

    Punditry.... (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by rise hillary rise on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:10:57 PM EST
    ...easier than thinking.

    And that's when Amy's brain skipped off to pick (5.00 / 6) (#84)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:40:25 PM EST
    ... some daffodils.

    Clinton's run has exposed a divide between what could be termed optimist and pessimist feminists. ... those who see Clinton's candidacy as groundbreaking--as the first of many serious runs by strong women--and those who count backward to Geraldine Ferraro

    The hell? This is a lot to be squeezing out of those numbers.

    However it does go along with another annoying habit of Punditstand: when not slamming Sen Clinton directly, why not slap on some completely irrelevant, invented, unflattering quality?

    Obama female voters: omtimistic! young!
    Clinton female voters: pessimistic! old!

    At least she didn't say bitter!

    You know, this is interesting (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by zyx on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:56:11 PM EST
    slightly O/T

    BTD has supported Obama from wayback cuz of his Media Darling status.  Obama, according to the bio I just read, has pretty much always been a Darling--his mama told him he was very special, and he, well, he has always had a very high opinion of himself, and has had pretty good reinforcement of this throughout his life.

    The Clintons--Hillary--know what will, or could, happen if and when she were to step in the WH.  The Republican might be mean!  The press might be mean!  The American people, some of them, might be mean!  There might be--gasp--disunity!  Meanness!

    I suppose Obama knows, in a hypothetical sense, that disunity could happen, and people might say mean things about him and his wife and even his daughters, and about his fine ideas and proposals.  But I don't think he's really prepared for it, and I don't think he'll be at all happy when it happens.  I think the man has lived in a bubble, quite frankly.  I know he is rather cool--"Hawaiian cool"--when stressed, but he's, well, elitest.  He doesn't like being picked on.  I don't think he'll like being in public life where a LOT of people are critical of him...

    Oh well.

    Oh, and as to disunity (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by zyx on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:00:43 PM EST
    there are those pesky dam* Democrats, too--it's like herding cats.

    Who killed Hillarycare?  Well, the Democrats had a lot to do with it.  The names start with Moynihan, as I recall!

    [ Parent ]

    I now support the guy (none / 0) (#106)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    but you do make a well rounded point. I think there is some intrigue there because unlike what's going on, if and when he gets in office, there WILL BE criticisms and triumphs that have nothing to with race. How he handles the pressure then might be interesting.

    [ Parent ]
    There are people who just (none / 0) (#119)
    by zyx on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:51:09 PM EST
    thrive no matter what, in politics.  The Clintons got up and put on a game face when the game was UGLY, day after day after day.  I thought it was nuts, actually, the Hillary would want to go back to the White House after what they endured.  And I saw Bill do a campaign stump for her--one of four or five that day--a month or two ago.  They LOVE politics.  They LOVE doing what they consider--well, I consider it, and I believe they consider it--serving their country, come what may.  Game face.  Very little whining or peevishness.  Yeah, once in a while, it slips, but it's darn rare.

    I don't care, personally, if Obama is HAPPY if he becomes president.  I mean, I don't think he'll be so weak that he'll become a miserable sot like his father did.  But if he gets a whuppin' something like Clinton did when Newt and Delay took over the Congress, or there was some external fiasco, how would he react?  

    [ Parent ]

    it will be someone else's fault. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by kimsaw on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:24:49 PM EST
    He'll tell everyone to calm down. Then he'll say his prayers that someone will have a gameplan, or he'll call Hillary at 3am.

    [ Parent ]
    On Olberman (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:04:15 PM EST
    he did what O'Reilly and Hannity were hired to do.  Kill off Hillary as a political force.

    Olbermann (none / 0) (#111)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:24:21 PM EST
    doesn't get enough ratings to do that.  He gets about a million viewers a night.

    National media is what did it, the culmination of it all.  Don't give Keith all of that credit.

    [ Parent ]

    Wow (none / 0) (#135)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:29:52 PM EST
    He used to struggle to get 600,000 when he was at his peak of competition with O'Reilly.

    I was hoping his numbers were down to 106

    [ Parent ]

    His number (none / 0) (#138)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:35:09 PM EST
    in the Demo has been about 400,000.

    He peaks when he trashes Hillary.

    [ Parent ]

    What you seem to be saying (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:35:22 PM EST
    is that AA women were hoodwinked by the Obama crowd that tried (and still tries) to sell the Clintons as racists.  I don't buy that.  When I made calls for Hillary in Texas and Ohio, well after SC, I talked to many AA women who told me they love Hillary, but felt they just "had to" vote for Obama.  Ditto for PA, IN and NC.  Not word one about racism, just pride in their community and pride that one of theirs was doing well.  I honor them for that pride and understand it. Those are the Obama voters who showed up in the exit polls in large numbers in all states as being quite willing to vote for Hillary.

    What I don't understand is what has seemed to me and other Hillary supporters to be the visceral need of angry black and white men (Obama supporters and the media) to utterly savage the Clintons, and call them and us racists.  I asked an Obama supporter how I could be a racist when I had voted for Jesse Jackson, twice, and was promptly informed that even mentioning Jesse's name in the same breath as Obama meant I was, indeed, a racist.  Ok then.  I honor Jesse and his historic runs for president.  The question that has never been answered for me is why the Obama supporters do not.  

    I do not want to be in a party run by these angry forces who appear no different from the angry men who foisted Bush upon us.  Indeed, I think many of them are one-in-the-same.  I know several Bush voters who are now rabid Obama supoorters and call themselves Democrats.  Indeed, in the blogosphere, some of the worst offenders are so-called recovering republicans.  Obviously, they have not recovered enough.  I am done with the democrats, and will not support Obama. Without the support of long-time Democrats and Clinton voters like me, I honestly believe Obama cannot win. I guess that makes me an optimistic feminist since I hope, and have every reason to believe, I will be voting for Hillary as president in 2012.
     

    My above comment was meant to be in response (none / 0) (#141)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:37:16 PM EST
    to Icebergslim's comment.  Sorry for any confusion.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary Clinton's supporters are not racists, (none / 0) (#145)
    by icebergslim on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:45:00 PM EST
    but many come out in heated battles.  If you are a democrat you will vote Obama, if not, you will move along.

    HRC will have a lot to make up, she and her husband.  Especially, it the AA community.  And I will state this, I was surprised that the AA vote cut so divisively by 2/5, but that represented what many AAs felt as dog whistle tactics of the Clintons.

    Hillary could have gotten at least 30% of the AA women vote, this group was HIGHLY skeptical of Obama, felt he was too new, etc.  But again, her campaign destroyed that with the type of campaign she ran.

    I believe Obama will win in November, after the dow dropped over 400 points and gas will be 5 bucks by November.  The country will be so tired of Bush, McCain will not have a chance.  But I am an Obama supporter and we always run like we are 20 pts down and work out asses off.  That is how he won.

    [ Parent ]

    I think you will find that not every agrees (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:50:34 PM EST
    with you about this:

    I was surprised that the AA vote cut so divisively by 2/5, but that represented what many AAs felt as dog whistle tactics of the Clintons.

    I think you will also find that it is to no one's benefit to continue arguing about this.

    BTW, I have not forgotten the toxic things you wrote at the time.

    [ Parent ]

    Moving on (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:54:20 PM EST
    "If you are a democrat you will vote Obama, if not, you will move along."

    Move along and serve you coffee perhaps?  I was a woman long before I was a democrat.  You're right, you and your ilk have infested my party to the point I have moved along.  Good luck in November, you'll need it, even if the Dow drops 4,000.  Some principles transcend money.  I suspect that is a lesson you will learn this fall.

    [ Parent ]

    Not answering the question (2.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:01:37 PM EST
    No one seems to be aware that -admittedly less than for Clinton - quite a few white women voted for Barack. Any input ?

    Was that the question? (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:06:20 PM EST
    Why didn't Clinton get 90% of the white women's vote?

    I dunno. I find it interesting that you are not extolling the reason why 90% of African American women voted for Obama. Can you think of the reason not related to Hillary?

    Let me ask it this way, what percentage of the African American women's vote would Clinton have gotten if Obama were not in the race?

    [ Parent ]

    The REAL Question (none / 0) (#52)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:17:53 PM EST
    is why are people questioning the inherent morality (present company excluded BTD) of all these realities? (ex. women and hispanics for hillary, blacks and youth for barack)

    [ Parent ]
    I can only say this (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:23:45 PM EST
    I will not ignore reality. I never have and I never will.

    [ Parent ]
    We already know the answer to that question (none / 0) (#56)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:21:18 PM EST
    Just look at the 2000 primaries.

    [ Parent ]
    And just as I think (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:25:40 PM EST
    those white women who let identity be the deciding factor between two candidates who hold similar views, more power to them.

    If there was a GOOD Latino candidate in the race, in all honesty, I am pretty sure I would have tilted towards him or her.


    [ Parent ]

    And I wouldn't begrudge it (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:29:05 PM EST
    We like to see people who share our experiences do well. That's why the most powerful tool a politician has is to be able to say "I am like you." It's why Hillary's "Scranton" ad was so good.

    [ Parent ]
    White and AA woman vote (none / 0) (#102)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:00:29 PM EST
    For the AA vote, I would think- INHO, they related more to him as slavery is a very very strong issue for AA. in fact as a white woman, my admittedly very own perception was that my AA counterparts considered that being AA and a woman made it worse than being white and a woman. Sort of the importance of being the first serious woman contender paled in comparison of being the first AA seious contender. For them it was a no brainer issue.
    iT WAS NOT AGAINST HILLARY at all, it was an issue which was way above her, like pionneer league to major league. No offense meant.
    We may not realize it but it was not that long ago 1968 just 40ys ago and it meant more than being a woman.
    In fact Obama could have been a woman, their choice was gender-free ; he was one of them and Hillary for all her good works was not.
    Now let it be clear that I am not going to be disapparaging Bill Clinton, but repeatedly calling him the first black president in this camlpaign did dissservice his wife.It was derogatory and insulting; sorry yes that is always I perceived it and my friends while giving him the title honoris causa were ready for a real AA president . Not a would be one.
    If Obama had been out of the race, they would have voted Clinton, they would have related ; but alas for Clinton; he was there.
    It was not a vote againts; it was a vote for.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:25:32 PM EST
    We know that.

    And just for the record, it was not the Clintons who kept talking about the "first black president" thing, it was the pundits and pols.


    [ Parent ]

    They... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jackson Hunter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:19:45 PM EST
    They didn't vote as a monolithic bloc.  I'm sure there were white women, especially younger ones, who voted on the Iraq War (and thus against Clinton.)

    In other words, they voted issues for the most part.  The vast majority of Dems are not racist or deranged feminazis.  Once he achieved viability, Sen. Obama was going to sweep the AA vote.  (Not a criticism, just a reality.  If I were AA, it would be a no brainer since their policies are relatively close for the most part.)

    I just felt that HRC had the edge in experience and savvy, it has been the blogs that have totally skewed things out of control and caused all of the divisiveness.  I was an either or guy just a few months ago, and that changed with all of the rancor.  I honestly do think this Party will unite better than most think, but Obama has to take the lead on that, as the titular head of the Party, it is his responsibility alone, and to his credit he seems to be heading in that direction.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    You're the kind (none / 0) (#73)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:33:43 PM EST
    of person someone with half a brain could have a civil discourse with. I do blame the media, the idiotic DNC and internet elements for inflaming some of the country's worst cancers.

    [ Parent ]
    You speak for me too (none / 0) (#1)
    by masslib on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:41:20 PM EST
    on this one.

    Wait a second (none / 0) (#2)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:43:08 PM EST
    I think sullivan is making a point that avoids race because she doesn't want to be accused of what so many clinton supporters have been (wrongly) of race-baiting.

    Then she should be making a different point!!!! (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by pie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:47:15 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Wait! (none / 0) (#6)
    by pie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:45:30 PM EST
    /looks at desk.  Proceeds to beat head on it.

    Good ol' Amy.  Another member of the clueless brigade.  Aren't these people embarrassed to write this stuff?

    By the end of it (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 04:53:59 PM EST
    Obama will have won the female vote according to all the history books.

    [ Parent ]
    History Lesson Please (none / 0) (#34)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:01:25 PM EST
    As I stated before, i'm fairly new to this whole democracy thing, but i gotta ask: has a political party ever been this divided? maybe my view is myopic because this is the first site i picked to get involved in. Since when did white women and blacks become enemies? I thought it was all about "The Man" or whatever. I just wanted a few historical references.

    I don't know the answer but (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:04:50 PM EST
    on a related note. Paul Begala pointed out that Gore won every primary against Bradley.  Bradley dropped out in March and did not endorse Gore until early June or July (can't remember). But Hillary is the devil for waiting four days!  He also pointed out a similar scenario with Tsongas and Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    Good for Begala (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:06:52 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You know the only reason the media (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 06:08:34 PM EST
    is still beating her up for that today is because she embarrassed them.

    They spent all day announcing what she would do and proved to the country that those mouths just make it up as they go along. They looked like the fools they are.

    I'm hoping her speech tomorrow is, again, what she wants to say, and not what they want to hear.

    [ Parent ]

    1976 (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:18:27 PM EST
    and the GOP. Very divided. The party was pretty split and lots of them sat home giving Carter a win for the Presidency.

    [ Parent ]
    Lots of them sat home? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:05:00 PM EST
    Impossible!  Fox News has been telling me for days that everyone always 'gets over' having the nomination go to the other guy.

    [ Parent ]
    1968 for one (none / 0) (#125)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 07:08:30 PM EST
    That was probably the absolute worst in recent history.  This is nowhere near as bad, but it's the worst in the Dem. Party since then, I think.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD when are you (none / 0) (#36)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:02:17 PM EST
    going to start posting on Keith Olbermann? I would love love love that.

    Ummmm, start? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:04:04 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Oh sorry thought you were going to do a series (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:05:07 PM EST
    But that was a while ago and I have slept since then :-)

    [ Parent ]
    I think non-sense like this is hurtful to Clinton (none / 0) (#37)
    by ajain on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 05:02:42 PM EST
    I think we should email TIME and Amy Sullivan.
    This kind of hurtful political punditry is detrimental not only to Clinton but to Democratic Party,