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Sexism: Are We Really Talking About It?

Over at TAPPED, Christopher Hayes, the Editor of The Nation, writes:

What was most striking about her campaign was the sexist venom directed at her from so many corners of the establishment, and the steely resolve with which she faced it down. That dynamic is what, I think, helped her win New Hampshire, avoid an early demise, and inspire the passionate support she gained from white women of her generation. These women are the backbone of the Democratic coalition, and they live life within the chaffing confines of a culture that feels as if it has, depressingly, outrageously, grown more sexist over the last several decades. As a male writer, I can say this lived reality is probably too easy for me to brush aside. But as Dana Goldstein pointed out, the presence of these sentiments, in all their vulgarity, presented progressive men with ample occasion for introspection on the ways in which progressive politics, and the discourse we all engage in sometimes explicitly, and more often tacitly, reinforces this power imbalance. This will, I hope, I believe, have a profound lasting positive and progressive effect.

(Emphasis supplied.) Excuse me Mr. Hayes, too many so-called progressive men and, some women, say it is irrelevant. I am still waiting for that "profound lasting positive and progressive effect."

Speaking for me only

Comments closed

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    Well, Golly Gee... (5.00 / 22) (#1)
    by AmyinSC on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:10:00 PM EST
    Where the HECK were these kinds of articles over the PAST 16 MONTHS?!?!?!  Why wait until IT IS TOO LATE to say anything??  Seems to me that is STILL taking the easy way out!  Just sayin'.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 12) (#6)
    by chancellor on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:55 PM EST
    After John Edwards dropped out, the entire Nation staff jumped into the tank for Obama. Were they all so afraid that to stand up for Hillary--as a woman--would irreparably damage Obama? No, I think that The Nation these days is just another example of shoddy journalism and the media attempting to select the parties' candidates. I have already removed The Nation from my bookmarks.

    Parent
    Disappointed (5.00 / 14) (#11)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:23:06 PM EST
    I don't understand why The Nation had to pick sides, why did any of the progressive blogs have to pick sides and only cherry pick diaries and facts to advantage their candidate. It was a big mistake and probably contributed to the divide in the party more than anything else.

    Parent
    Good Question (5.00 / 9) (#15)
    by AmyinSC on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:27:24 PM EST
    The question REALY is: why does this country not have TRUE journalists anymore?  WAY too many of the journalists now are also pundits - look at people like Nedra Pickler of the AP - she has been infusing her articles with personal opinion for years now, and still has a JOB!!!  That's the thing - too many of these people are infusing their opinions into the subject matter instead of reporting the FACTS.

    As to the Nation writer, you know, I'm just shakin gmy head abt how he may not have recognized some of the sexism, and how it was easy to brush it aside.  See, that pretty much says it all.  When people weren't jumping into the frat boy mentality, they encouraged it by commission, if nothing else.  IMHO, that is.

    Parent

    SOS....DD (5.00 / 6) (#216)
    by rise hillary rise on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:03 PM EST
    this was my response to Pollitt's piece (now posted as a "web letter"

    Katha, your publication stands to take some of the blame for this too. I hoped for so much better from The Nation, which never missed an opportunity to rigorously apply a double standard in this campaign. Clinton got a pounding from every single one of your columnists, no matter what she said, while Obama got only praise or the random whimpy disclaimer that his position, whilst not perfect, was somehow superior to hers.

    At no point did any of your writers seriously analyze Obama's glaring deficits, his ephemeral voting record, his questionable personal associations or his nebulous political background.

    At what point did anyone at The Nation cry foul when Obama mimed the "brush-off," referred to her and then scratched his face with a middle finger (I was there and saw the crowd's reaction--that was not unintentional); made comments like "periodically, she gets a little down" or talked about the "china flying"? Not even once. If (for example) Hillary had referred to Obama as "tap-dancing" around an issue, your publication would have laid into her à la Olbermann.

    None of you has clean hands here. Nice work. I won't be renewing my subscription.

    Parent

    I'm guessing they were sitting in a drawer (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:31:47 PM EST
    til obama declared himself king....

    Parent
    Something we can all do NOW! (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by WoMenBoycottMSNBCcom on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:19 PM EST
    Concrete, simple, straigtforward, targeted.
    Women Men Hillary Supporters Pro-democracy Voters Boycott MSNBC & NBC

    spread the word; share the code/banner available at the site.  Turn Free speech into concrete ACTION.

    Parent

    Double exacltly! What I've been saying for days -- (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:12:52 PM EST
    all of a sudden some in the MCM are noticing sexism! Of course, among Big Media MCM, it's just some folks "out there," has nothing to do with MCMers.

    Ha.

    Did anyone else here listen to WNYC's Brian Lehrer Show recap of Hillary's campaign this morning? First segment of program. Podcast available, but not sure when it comes up. It was amazing in its lack of any referencing MCM sexism and misogyny. Only Bill Moyers' Journal actually covered that--way back in January! He could do another full program on it now.

    Parent

    Just like CNN suddenly discovered (5.00 / 8) (#133)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:40:32 PM EST
    Alice Palmer and how Obama f'd her over ... AFTER Obama got the necessary superdelegate support to win the nomination.  A nice piece of butt-covering, CNN, but many of us see right through you.

    Parent
    Yeah, good question (5.00 / 6) (#198)
    by daria g on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:17:12 PM EST
    This stuff from Nation writers is from the same magazine that ran a cover story on how Hillary had betrayed feminism and used racist code to attack Obama.  And then went to cable news to talk about it.  And ran a piece by Tom Hayden talking about how much his peace-loving wife wanted to scream when Hillary was on TV.  They should look in the mirror.

    Hayden in The Nation:

    For Barbara, Hillary has become the screech on the blackboard. From First Lady to Lady Macbeth.

    Some progressives they are.

    Parent

    On further reflection, I'm wondering (5.00 / 3) (#208)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:24:46 PM EST
    why Barbara didn't speak for herself.

    Parent
    More hope than belief, I think (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:10:20 PM EST
    Gee, that's the cornerstone of this primary season, isn't it?

    More imagination than actualization (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:13:12 PM EST
    I haven't found it all that creative though. (5.00 / 3) (#222)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:29:28 PM EST
    Hope and change are about as pedestrian as it comes in political rhetoric.

    Nothing very imaginative there imo.

    Now hope and change juxtaposed with the ad hominem attacks was kind of different - but not in a good way.

    Parent

    More lies than truth (none / 0) (#228)
    by Nadai on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:32:48 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Man, what a joke this all is. I'm starting (5.00 / 12) (#3)
    by tigercourse on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:12:34 PM EST
    to feel pretty exisential about this country's political world.

    Ditto! (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:30:13 PM EST
     I really need to rise above politics and just say:  it is what it is.  Your vote means nothing.  You can affect nothing.  Just devote yourself to making lots of money and hope you can still get out of this country.

    Parent
    It is what it is..... (4.00 / 1) (#37)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST
    You summed up my feelings well, except I'm devoted to making lots of fun and hapiness, and most of all living free....to hell with money, except as a means to have fun.

    I follow politics just to know what the bad guys are up to, so I can adjust according and continue to live as free as possible, albeit under the radar.

    Parent

    Sounds (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:45:43 PM EST
    like a good life philosophy!  And now we know they're all bad guys, so live, love and let the politicians share the stress.

    Parent
    No, we're not talking about it (5.00 / 19) (#4)
    by david mizner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    Not really, partly because Obama supporters believe that to talk about sexism is to invalidate his victory. Sure, we'll all tsk-tsk Chris Matthews and Tucker Carlson, but male progressives have been generally unwilling to call out other male progressives for their sexism. I'm still wondering why Josh Marshall is a progressive in good standing after suggesting that Hillary castrated Mark Penn.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/187620.php


    He stands ill wiht me (5.00 / 12) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    for many reasons. I no longer respect him.

    Parent
    There ought to be a list of how many castrations (5.00 / 8) (#96)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:58 PM EST
    Hillary performed. It was a favored metaphor for the Boyz in the MCM and ObamaBlogs.

    Tucker Carlson was fearful and would keep his legs crossed around her. I'd forgotten about Mark Penn. But I know there were others.

    Parent

    Progressive Left: ALWAYS sexist (5.00 / 6) (#150)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    How many here are old enough to recall Stokely Carmichael's famous statement about women?    When asked what position women should have in the Black Power movement, he replied: "prone".  

    And don't forget the wonderful musical anthems of the 60s:

    "American Woman" ("stay away from me...")
    "Under my Thumb"("a girl who once kept me down...")
    "Stairway to Heaven" ("SHE's buying a stairway..."  SHE? At 65 cents on the dollar, I don't think so).

    Progressive men have always been deeply conflicted about women.  Why?  Well firstly, they tend to be young and so still trying to break those apron strings.  Secondly, they want to believe they're fair and balanced, and so do not confront their misogyny directly but deny it and keep it buried ... thus allowing it to fester and come out in unconscious ways.  Thirdly, young women possibly encourage this by themselves being intimidated by their male counterparts.  I see my strong and assertive daughter unconsciously acting submissive around her tall deep-voiced boyfriend.  Fourthly, progressives (face it, folks) think it's ok to ignore or belittle conventional social forms such as ... say, courtesy.

    Parent

    A bit overgeneralized, (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by TomP on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    don't you think?


    Parent
    Yeah and two of the three (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:32:59 PM EST
    bands are English and the other is Canadian.

    Just sayin'

    Parent

    The sexism, and Clinton hate will bring down party (5.00 / 5) (#5)
    by BJ on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:45 PM EST
    Sadly as I read this post I am listening to yet another set of male media haters of the Clintons and blinded by the messiah's rhetoric (here):

    http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/11645

    The Dem party, the media, and Obama himsself are going to get a rude awakening in November as the Dem party is getting right now (by lost members and donations).  They may feel they no longer need real democrats, or real liberals, that they can get by with this new young (ignorant crass) generation.. well good luck to them with that.. We've heard it is now the Messiah's party, (islamist, terrorists, black panthers, corruption etc included).. Well more power to them surviving on this.  

    It may succeed this election, it may not.. but either way it won't last.  The obamabots send out death threats, they've even gone so far to send out threats to businesses who advertise on blogs of Hillary supporters.. this is the NEW PARTY.  

    Good luck with that Dean!

    Obama would never have gotten this far in a candidacy with his credentials and with his resume if he were not a black man.. NEVER!

    The connections he has to soooooo many controversial figures in this country, his cousin Odinga (islamist extremist) in Kenya along with a half brother (since his father had several wives and there's several brothers and sisters there), one particular brother there is a dangerous extremist.  His completely blank resume, his questionable (and sometimes corrupt) credentials.. there is no way this guy would have gotten to this place without the misogyny and the reverse racism played out in this race.

    It's a disgrace, we are reliving the bush-sheep era all over again..  except now it's on the left with bots.

    From what I see online, there will be a huge voting block that will not turn out for the dem party in Nov, and it's not just women... I've been surprised by the # of men who seem to feel the exact same way we feel, regarding Obama, and how Hillary's been treated unfairly in this election season.

    Punish the democrat party too (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by WoMenBoycottMSNBCcom on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:10:31 PM EST

    From what I see online, there will be a huge voting block that will not turn out for the dem party in Nov, and it's not just women... I've been surprised by the # of men who seem to feel the exact same way we feel, regarding Obama, and how Hillary's been treated unfairly in this election season.

    Totally agree!  The  anti-voter, anti-democracy backroom dealers and so called 'leaders' (pelosi, reid, dean, et al) have made it very clear they not only jumped on the 'coronate the king' bandwagon, but even more vile is that they also don't value the concept of VOTERS VOTING, VOTERS DECIDING (much less 1 Person 1 Vote). What hypocrites! I am sick sick sick of them!

    How long have the very voters they are spurning been the backbone of the democratic party? How long have we been doing the heavy lifting in terms of  volunteer work, phone banking, getting out the vote, walking precincts, zillions and zillions of mailings, ad nauseum.

    They don't want, need or respect our voices, needs, intent, or our VOTES.

    Time to send them a message too doncha think?


    Parent

    BTD -- You are really the only political wirter (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:22:01 PM EST
    That covered sexism during the primary season in any significant and regular way. It was obviously too little, but at least it wasn't too late-- like the rest of the media. Thank you.

    There were other (5.00 / 10) (#14)
    by david mizner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:26:54 PM EST
    bloggers, like Melissa McEwan, who were all over it, but yes, BTD did a good job.

    Parent
    BTD and Melissa (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by karen for Clinton on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:43:59 PM EST
    Much thanks to both.

    Millions of angry posts all over the net by individuals after each latest occurence often brought more ridiculed responses and insults.

    Many of us wrote letters to the offenders and their corporations, to no avail.

    The "Shut the Freud Up" "mad as hell" video was so cathartic as it repeated it in all its uglyness and then gave the cathartic release.

    Funny how they denied it and permitted it, ain't it.  Howard Dean waited till his fix was in before he gave his scripted little "tsk-tsk" sexism disapproval on May 31st.  Pandering to the very voters they were risking by over and over making it clear they don't have to "just rely" on us anymore.  The old coalition was tossed under the bus.   Win without us.

     

    Parent

    Howard Dean... (none / 0) (#103)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:21:38 PM EST
    that reminds me...

    ..is his independent physician spousal unit still in Vermont tending to her patients while Howard works over the Dems in DC?

    Hey...there's a subject for the tabloids...how many nights did THEY spend together in the past year...and is she speaking to him?...is their marriage solid...or....?

    There's one woman whose views on all this might be interesting...some enterprising journalist out to pay the doctorlady a visit...

    Parent

    I read Dean "teleworks." (none / 0) (#231)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:33:36 PM EST
    others should've... (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by kredwyn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:55:03 PM EST
    but they were too busy denying its existence.

    Parent
    They were saying that the things that (5.00 / 6) (#241)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:44:36 PM EST
    were said were not sexist a lot of the time which was interesting given the fact anything that the Clinton camp said was proclaimed racist.  I still can't get over the fact that thanks to this Obama campaign, I can't talk about LBJ's role in passing the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act without worrying that someone is going to call me a racist.  I don't like it when people re-write and/or suppress historical facts.  It makes me very, very uncomfortable.

    But when people went around claiming that First Ladies were irrelevant and had no experience - nothing but housewives - which was pretty insulting too - few spoke up to point out how many First Ladies were in fact incredibly important political players in their own right.  All these people were willing to throw out great female historical figures and their accomplishments in order to destroy Senator Clinton.  Obama says that because of his win little boys and girls will now know that they can run for President.  I am afraid it is still just the boys club - maybe the skin color barrier will be broken - but the gender barrier seems more fortified now to me than it did at the start of this whole thing.

    Oh well, now they are onto incredibly sophisticated arguments against their next opponent like the color of his teeth and his age.  Did I say sophisticated? I really meant sophmoric.

    Parent

    He was really the only major writer, though (none / 0) (#23)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:33:46 PM EST
    Given the Way (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by creeper on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:22:07 PM EST
    The Nation treated Hillary during the campaign it's disgusting to see them now defend her.

    I'm sorry you even highlighted this, BTD.  It's just a sop from a sexist pig.

    Hayes, the Nation, are NOT defending HRC (5.00 / 20) (#24)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:34:48 PM EST
    and let's not let them or their ilk get away with that claim.

    They are defending themselves.  And it's too late.

    Parent

    That's the (5.00 / 11) (#43)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:48:16 PM EST
    way I see it too Cream. Guess now that they all got what they wanted they feel they can toss a few crumbs to Hillary supporters. Let's all make sure we are properly grateful.

    Parent
    I think I'll just be saying "NO" (5.00 / 7) (#153)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:54:07 PM EST
    to battered-wife-syndrome.  

    Thankyouverymuch.

    Parent

    Yup--this is CYA time for the prog/libs (5.00 / 10) (#102)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:20:47 PM EST
    They kept their powder dry during the primary, but now The One is nominated, they can decry the inhumanity of the sexism and misogny!

    Noted and recorded.

    Parent

    They lost all credibility (5.00 / 7) (#126)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:37:45 PM EST
    when they took sides. They should have been supporting both candidates - and criticizing both candidates - equally.

    Parent
    Quietly they surveyed the wounded hunting ground (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:11:47 PM EST
    ... and wanked.

    Yup, it's still all about slathering the lotion on themselves, isn't it?

    Parent

    Just (5.00 / 12) (#13)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:24:26 PM EST
     returned from breakfast with an Obama friend.  When the name came up, I said I thought we should not talk about it.  Then he and another Obama person at the table immediately launched into an attack on Hillary and started saying they CERTAINLY hope Hillary will not be VP, and they don't want Bill Clinton anywhere near the WH breathing down Obama's neck.

    I continue to be astounded at the vitriol aimed at the Clintons by Democrats.  You'd think they were the spawn of the devil, the worst thing ever to come into the Democratic Party.  You don't dare speak up in their defense or then you are personally attacked--I was told by these people that I'm stupid (I have a PhD in American history) and racist because I support HIllary.  Really makes me start gravitating toward Obama, y'know.

    Yah, it just makes me think maybe I really am stupid and racist and I'm too stupid to know it.  You've gotta hand it to these people, they've got a great strategy for winning folks over to The One.  I could be wrong, because, after all, I am a stupid racist, but wasn't it Dubya who was such a sore winner and dismissed everyone who didn't support him as some expletive?

    Tek...if obama were to become president, (5.00 / 6) (#45)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:48:52 PM EST
    I am sure he would be calling Bill on his red phone asking....whatever shall I do, Bill, whatever shall I do?  :)  He is no more prepared for being president than I am.

    Parent
    I actually think you're more prepared. (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by MMW on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    You have HRC's ideas. More respect for those different from yourself. You'd have to bring in people to help you navigate as he would, but I think you may be able to bring in better people, more like-minded, and you got more cojones to stand and fight.

    True, the last few days has damaged your calm (thanks Serenity), but I understand.

    Yah, I'd vote for you.

    Parent

    MMW....thank you so much. That is just about (5.00 / 5) (#94)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:08 PM EST
    the nicest compliment I have ever been paid.  And you are correct about the damaged calm, but it chafes my butt that these trolls have swooped in here like vultures since their boy declared himself king of the hill.  We are not done here; and I cannot wait to see what happens next.  Thanks again MMW.

    Parent
    What kind of friends (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:50:29 PM EST
    do you have that would call you stupid and racist just because you don't agree with them about Obama? And why would you subject yourself to such abuse in the name of friendship? No snark here, I am just curious.

    Parent
    Unfortunately Marge..... (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:29:38 PM EST
    ...a lot of us are finding that we have friends like this.

    Parent
    Or in my case (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by echinopsia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:48:57 PM EST
    that these people are not real friends.

    I've had to end several online friendships over this primary, because people who call me an ignorant, uneducated racist are not and never can be my friends.

    I'll find new friends. <shrug>

    Parent

    Some are even (5.00 / 4) (#148)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:50:36 PM EST
    in our families.

    My stepmother, father and brother are all Obamans. I am the only one of my immediate family who is not a Hillary Hater.

    It's quite awkward, I must say.

    Parent

    Yep, it's 10 of them and one of me (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:01:05 PM EST
    just among my siblings and their spouses (although I suspect some spouses are laying low and will cast their blessedly secret ballots as they will in fall).  And the remaining sibling is a Bushie who will be for McCain.

    They all went on my email filter sometime ago, their messages sent fittingly to the "trash" file, for me to go find and hit back only when I'm in the mood.  Too many emails were catching me unawares for too long, as I tried to reason with once-thinking, sentient beings.  They stopped using reasoning months ago, very uncharacteristic in our family debates about politics.  And some started to get downright vicious in reply.  I have learned a lot from that.  Forearmed is forewarned, even -- especially? -- when placing trust in family members. Sad, but so it goes.

    Parent

    In answer (5.00 / 5) (#194)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:44 PM EST
    I no longer consider this person a friend and refused to talk to him for the duration of the meal.  I knew he supported Obama, but I did not expect the outburst at the mention of Obama's name.

    The other person is my step daughter, who used to be a Hillary Dem until she got accepted to a private college for fall.  She visited the college (uber liberal) and saw that the students were all for Obama.  She's been for him ever since.  She knows I support Hillary and I suspect she wanted to start some fireworks.  She got some fireworks she wasn't expecting when we parted from the "friend."

    Parent

    The only sane response... (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:54:29 PM EST
    "I'm sorry you are having a bad day. Since I haven't had a rabies shot, I think I'd better leave now. I hope you are feeling better soon. Good-bye."

    (It drives them right round the bend!)

    Parent

    Oh, (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:58:12 PM EST
    and smile sweetly... they can't stand it!

    Parent
    jackyt....you are my kind of girl....love it!! (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:48 PM EST
    Ooh - have you really done this? (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    I love it!  My hat is off to you.  What a superb response.

    Parent
    You hit the nail on the head -- complete contempt and disrespect from the Obama campaign, their supporters and the democrat party. I can see his lip curl in disdain when he mentions Senator Clinton. It's all a sham when they feign to respect and honor her. It's complete B.S.

    They don't want and completely believe they don't need Hillary supporters. That's Okay.

    That's absolutely fine by me. I won't vote for McCain, but I will be willing, ready, able to write in Hillary in November.

    Meanwhile join targeted Boycott of very specific MSNBC & NBC news/election coverage and piggy hosts, commentators. You know which ones. Start today. Let's get this thing rolling.

    http://www.WoMenBoycottMSNBC.com

    Parent

    I feel your pain :) (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by nashville on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:18:55 PM EST
    These people now attacking were the many of the same people who, pre-Obama, defended them ferociously.

    I'll say it again...just scary.

    Parent

    By what definition (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    are these people called your 'friends?'

    And why do you tolerate such rude behavior, enabling people to treat you so disrespectfully?

    I hope it is because you are young and have not yet learned to stand up for yourself, if not for others, in situations where bullyboys gang up on anyone...much less on 'a friend.'

    You have to draw the line somewhere...just how much crap will you take before you call a halt?

    Parent

    I don't know your "friends" (5.00 / 5) (#155)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:55:34 PM EST
    so I don't like to judge quickly but they sound like amazingly narrow minded jackasses.  But I don't like to judge.

    Please know that there are Obama supporters out there who still have an enormous amount of respect for Senator Clinton (and her husband) who are just as baffled and angry about hate-filled pinheads like your friends.

    OK, I do like to judge.

    Parent

    If Obama is elected President, (5.00 / 1) (#236)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    I may become a hermit, as so many of my close friends disparage Hillary Clinton as much as possible, including after Obama "won" the nomination Tuesday night.  They are quite insufferable and impossible to shut up.

    Parent
    I think you have to remember that many, many (none / 0) (#215)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:00 PM EST
    Democrats were completely irate over Bill embarrassing our country with adolescent antics in the Oval Office, but did not express that anger at the time because it was pretty much over for him.  However, the right wing has consistently used the false pretense of their moral superiority ever since then

    I know people on this list are very enamored of the Clintons, but the many, many rank and file Democrats still despise Bill and blame him for ushering in Republicans who have done immense damage to our country.  None of this would have ever come up again if not for the thought of Bill Clinton being in the White House again.  Hillary's not conceding and the calls to take it to the convention are what makes Obama supporters continue to attack the Clintons.  

    If Hillary somehow negotiates party support for something as powerful as Senate Majority Leader, most of her supporters will vote for the ticket that will put her there because it gives her a framework from which to push for our issues.  It also gives her a good place to run for Prez in four years if Obama fails to achieve progressive results.


    Parent

    I was pretty disgusted with Bill Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#239)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:40:07 PM EST
    but I didn't vote for Bill Clinton.

    I voted for Hillary Clinton, who is her own person.

    Parent

    That is a very sexist argument. (5.00 / 3) (#240)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:40:16 PM EST
    Bill Clinton is not running for President. Why all this rationalization of sexism against Hillary as  Bill hatres? Hillary is a strong woman and SHE was the one running for President, not Bill. Its sad that you think that judging a woman by the man she married, or assuming that he would be the power instead of she, is not just another classic example of sexism.

     And BTW, Bill Clinton was extremely popular with the public when the impeachment idiocy was going on, and Democrats actually gained in 1998, despite historical trends that the party in Presidential power  usually loses in mid term elections.  

    Parent

    It was always there (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:29:13 PM EST
    Even among my Obama supporting female friends. One commented about how "tacky" Hilary dressed at one of the debates! Nothing about substance, just about her tacky pants suit. When I called her on it she replied that even Pelosi knows how to dress. Since they couldn't nail her on substance, it became about clothes. I can't imagine the same conversation about Obama or Edwards.

    I liked her clothes! (5.00 / 10) (#27)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:30 PM EST
    But I am a "big dyke" so what do I know.  If she had not worn pantsuits they would have been talking about her calves nonstop or some other body part. If you want to see sexism in action just look at Fox news anchors, the women have to be young and blonde and the men are for the most part extremely unattractive and old. The MSNBC women anchors are all 12 years old too.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 9) (#42)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:47:37 PM EST
    When I jumped on her about I also included that if Hilary had dressed like Pelosi does she would have been labeled vain and self absorbed. It always was a no win situation with his people and that won't change until they find out what they really bought.

    Parent
    I even saw reports that Hillary and Nancy (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:50:49 PM EST
    have had facelifts.

    Parent
    I liked her clothes too! (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by Emma on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:52:26 PM EST
    And I'M a big dyke, too!  She must have been sending out subliminal messages that she's a lesbian.  You KNOW Hillary never does anything without a motive!

    Parent
    Ha! Yes, even the choice of (5.00 / 10) (#66)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:00:46 PM EST
    pantsuit and jewelry is calculated down to the last potential voter.  

    Turquiose = bitter rural men
    Pearls = typical white woman

    Parent

    Okay, can I admit that, much as (5.00 / 5) (#182)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:10:41 PM EST
    I deplore the attention to what women in politics wear (read Gerry Ferraro's autobiography!) . . . I picked up some tips on how to wear scarves from Clinton?  And I haven't worn blue for years, but I found myself drawn to it, and especially turquoise, in clothing purchases this year.  And I sure noticed that Clinton's haircut now is Gerry's haircut -- so suitable for both and so much more suited to the campaign trail than a certain candidate's spouse's deliberate Jackie wannabe cut.

    And somehow, I found that I only wore trousers to work since January.  I am freed from pantyhose, as I am from so much else thanks to Clinton.  I actually made the comparison of pantyhose and the Democratic Party in a recent comment, determined as I am to stop struggling to fit into either, ever again. :-)  

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:55 PM EST
    Cream City and ruffian - you are hilarious.

    Thanks so much for the laughs today!

    Parent

    And how Gerry and Mondale had (5.00 / 0) (#213)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:26:26 PM EST
    to act when together waving at the crowd. No arms on each others back. Very formal. So many people I speak with about all this just don't get it.

    Parent
    I liked them too (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:58:26 PM EST
    and I'm sure they are not cheap and tacky. Hillary's wardrobe was a no-win situation for her - I'm glad she picked what was comfortable to wear day after day on and off planes, trains and automobiles, sitting on awkward debate and townhall stools, etc.  

    Nancy Pelosi's clothes are beautiful, but she has never done near that level of campaigning.


    Parent

    Ewwwwww Gawd! (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:17:23 PM EST
    I can't stand to watch it, and the girls let the boys lead the discussions while they spend their minds and energies adding attractive accessories to the boy's ideas.  It's precious.  It's all so 50's 'Leaving It To Beaver' (wow, that puts a whole new spin on that title)  Pauuuuuuuke!

    Parent
    Bjorn, well as long as we're on the topic... (5.00 / 4) (#174)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:04:36 PM EST
    I'm a "big dyke" too! I thought Hillary's wardrobe and her overall styling was sheer genius, in that it looked effortless and then some.

    She always looked really pulled together, radiant and 'un-gendered', but yet not androgynous. Somehow the wardrobe deflected attention away from itself and put the focus back onto her. Ergo, her clothing didn't become an ongoing focal point of ridicule. In that one sense,  she had a level playing field not usually afforded a woman in public life. I kept saying her stylist deserves a massive raise.

    And the hair, genius too. Not too long, not too short, not too blond, not too coifed. A frame that didn't call attention to itself and, again, reflected all of the light back onto her.

    Through it all, what we saw was Hillary and she was/is a wonder to behold.

    Parent

    her clothes, for what it's worth (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by noholib on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:36 PM EST
    I thought Senator Clinton looked beautiful the last several months.  I thought the combination of pantsuits with jewelry and pumps sent a great message: practical and feminine.  I thought what a great way for women and especially young girls to see a woman look, that is, like a sensible and appealing person, not like a sex object.  Re: emulation, I figured I could wear pantsuits and necklaces too.  But the shoes, well no.  Actually the shoes were not practical, but they did dress up her outfits.  

    Parent
    noholib, tip for you below... (5.00 / 1) (#232)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:33:56 PM EST
    Comfortable, stylin' shoes, including pumps, look at shoes by "Taryn Rose"; an orthopedic surgeon turned shoe designer.

    This is not OT, since it's about dressing women for public life, in a way that pre-empts sexist ridicule and commentary about her wardrobe.

    Parent

    Margaret Thatcher had to deal with that cr*p too. (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:59:33 PM EST
    And nothing has changed.

    And yet some people have been so completely blind to the misogyny.

    It's mindboggling.

    Parent

    Heck, I have a female friend who is (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:03:40 PM EST
    a University professor (thus well educated), and her reason for not supporting Hillary was that Hillary stayed with Bill after he cheated on her with Monica.  Wow, I mean ... that's wrong in so many ways, where does one start?  I suspect this friend is so badly bitten by white liberal guilt that she just needed something, anything, to justify not voting for Hillary and picked something really stupid.  

    Parent
    at least defensible, no? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Artoo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:13:10 PM EST
    a University professor (thus well educated), and her reason for not supporting Hillary was that Hillary stayed with Bill after he cheated on her with Monica.  Wow, I mean ... that's wrong in so many ways, where does one start?  I suspect this friend is so badly bitten by white liberal guilt that she just needed something, anything, to justify not voting for Hillary and picked something really stupid.

    Maybe this is my teenage dittohead coming out, but isn't it pretty widely accepted that Monica wasn't exactly a one-time thing? And that there are many other "other women" in the former president's past?

    Working from that understanding, isn't it understandable that some feminists would see Hillary as an enabler (however fair or unfair that view might be)?

    Parent

    Is that a reason not to vote for her? (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:16:16 PM EST
    No, it's not.

    Parent
    Hillary stayed with her husband, the (5.00 / 3) (#220)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:28:48 PM EST
    the fact that Obama had very questionable friends and associations were okay and not to question? I wonder what her choice would have been had she been the one in the white house.

    Parent
    P.S. What circumstances had this (none / 0) (#225)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:30:51 PM EST
    friend been through where the entire world was watching where she had to act with class and dignity.

    Parent
    Whatever (5.00 / 2) (#223)
    by Mari on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:29:49 PM EST
    Who cares! I've never been interested in Bill Clinton's sex life. It's so pathetic how judgemental society is about a woman's marriage. He clearly loves her and supports her and it works for them.

    Parent
    Feminist view of philandery-enabling (5.00 / 4) (#235)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM EST
    Yes, you're right and some feminists do hold that view.  But it's mind blowing that an educated person would:  

    a) use this as sufficient reason not to vote for Clinton (thereby letting it trump everything else that Clinton has accomplished, her brilliant mind, generous heart, and great ideas).

    b) not realize that millions of women, and men, in this world have forgiven unfaithful spouses because they love them and share with them something deep that transcends sexual misbehavior.

    c) ignore the fact that she is BLAMING THE VICTIM.

    Parent

    uhm... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:09:16 PM EST
    the comments on her clothes were vapid and shallow, but let's be honest, it's not sexism.  Its just the same absurd type of "journalism"  that gave us endless stories about John Edwards hair, or Al Gore's brown suit, or Wes Clark's sweaters...

    There's plenty of legitimate sexism out there in and out of the MSM but Campaign Fashion" is just typical infuriating media noise.

    Parent

    for my part... (5.00 / 0) (#197)
    by Artoo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:16:40 PM EST
    the comments on her clothes were vapid and shallow, but let's be honest, it's not sexism.

    I first recognized in myself that I wasn't being fair with Hillary when I saw her in a bright red suit (at the State of the Union address I think) and said "What's she wearing that for?" And I immediately thought to myself: I would never say anything like that about what a man was wearing and that's totally indefensible.

    It's similar to the way that it's hard to be racist talking about the way a Caucasian dresses. On the other hand, it's all to easy to be racist in talking about the way an African-American dresses.

    Parent

    Wonder what he thinks about the ERA (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Redshoes on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    One question I keep wondering is how an Obama administration will enhance the equality of women -- since 14th Amendment jurisprudence enshrines that issues affecting the sexes deserve less scrutiny than those affecting the races.  Given that Obama's actions and daily life reflect the prerogatives of a traditional male (i.e., his career and ambition take precedence at the expense of his family -- hence his wife's initial anger and frustration that evolved to acceptance) I have genuine doubts that he "gets it."  But one can hope he does.

    I am not a "single-issue" voter... (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:08:51 PM EST
    but I am thinking about how to respond to the misogyny I've seen during this campaign.

    One possible way to go is to make intent to push for passage of the ERA my top criterion for supporting any candidate. This primary has really opened my eyes to how much work still needs to be done to address American sexism, and I'd like to do something concrete to try and move that agenda forward.

    Parent

    I've Always wondered (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:23:30 PM EST
    why the ERA never came back. Its always seemed like surely by NOW people would vote for it. I'd support it whole-heartedly.

    Parent
    Great idea (none / 0) (#183)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:11:37 PM EST
    And for those who are more institutionally savvy than I am, what women's advocacy organizations would you recommend?

    Parent
    I have always liked (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM EST
    Planned Parenthood, myself.

    But I need to do a lot more research!

    Parent

    Me too (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:25 PM EST
    They have great programs and do lots of good stuff.  They seem to be governed by much wiser heads than NARAL, for instance.

    Emily's List, also, although I'm sort of rethinking my support for them after someone mentioned some of the folks they support.  They support female, pro-choice candidates, but not all of them supported Clinton.  Not that they have to, but it means checking out why they didn't.

    And I give to local groups who work on homelessness, and a few other causes.

    Parent

    I like Planned Parenthood, (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by eleanora on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:44 PM EST
    NOW, and Emily's List. They'll be lining up with the Obama crowd after Saturday, but they do excellent work on women's issues and should take a path in the GE that will be palatable to Clinton Dems. I hope that they will, anyway.

    Parent
    One positive example (none / 0) (#106)
    by CST on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    He co-signed the fair-pay act (the one McCain opposed).  This was the bill that was supposed to remedy the supreme court ruling on Goodyear vs. Ledbetter.  It didn't pass though.

    Speaking of people who "don't get it", this is what McCain had to say on the issue:

    "They need the education and training, particularly since more and more women are heads of their households, as much or more than anybody else,"

    This is a good article on this issue.

    Parent

    ample occasion for introspection (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:32:58 PM EST
    Yes, they have sure had ample occassion.  However, I see no evicence they actually did any introspection.

    That's just rich.

    sadly we will only have a lesson with a loss (5.00 / 10) (#22)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:33:03 PM EST
    is my opinion. The only way for progressives to really see what happened and to learn from the vitriol and bigotry perpetrated against women by progressives is if progressives that are not so bigoted to cause a change in the Democratic party, starting with not electing Obama. I know that is now chatter at this site, but it's what I think. Otherwise if there is a win, there will be no reason to not be bigoted towards women in the future in this party.

    I agree with you (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by dk on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:40:30 PM EST
    and I hope that is not chatter.  It is a reasonable point of view.  And for people who disagree with it (i.e. disagree with sitting out this election), I would expect specific examples of how the Democratic party will atone for the sexism in their own ranks.  And no, a speech (or even a million speeches) will not cut it.  He will be forever tainted with the malign acceptance of sexism.  There's simply nothing he can do to make up for that.

    Parent
    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:38:58 PM EST
    (...tongue planted firmly in cheek...)

    ...there is ONE thing he could do...he could nominate Hillary at the convention and ask his delegates to vote for her...

    Parent

    It depends what you mean by talking about it (5.00 / 11) (#25)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:08 PM EST
    I've read a number of comments about how sexism didn't effect Clinton's candidacty,  she used sexism to get votes,  she actually deserved all of the sexist attacks because she is Hillary Clinton (a cackling, bitter, "rhymes with witch"), feminism is dead, only old bitter feminists care about sexism, and Obama's is wonderful for feminism and his campaign never made any sexist references.

    Technically, this is "talking about it", although I'm not at all sure this is the kind of talk that we need.

    By the way... (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:58 PM EST
    the comments were not, by and large, here. Most of them were at Salon, but there were some on Yahoo News and a couple of other blogs which I generally linked to from here.

    Parent
    Heh. I love how suddenly the progressive blogs (5.00 / 16) (#30)
    by rooge04 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:38:01 PM EST
    and journalists that joined in the Hillary-bashing based only on her sex are suddenly seeing the light as to how she was treated.

    Call me jaded. Call me a conspiracy-theorist. But I see absolutely no use for these people suddenly finding sexism hurled at Hillary. Where were they?

    Where were they when we railed about it here? On their blogs? Everywhere?! They were busy joining in is where they were.

    Cancelled T/Nation or I'd have seen that firsthand (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:39:50 PM EST
    Dumped it and a bunch of other deadbeat fauxgressive media.

    What I am seeing now is a lot of denial (5.00 / 15) (#34)
    by esmense on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:39:52 PM EST
    that misogyny came from the Obama campaign directly, which makes it somehow okay or not important enough to be discussed.

    But of course, if sometimes did. In very calculated ways. One of the most obvious examples being Jesse Jackson Jr's (an official spokesman of the campaign) outrageous statement after the NH primary that Hillary Clinton "did not cry for Katrina."

    This was a tactical, consultant shaped appeal to both misogyny and racial resentment. A masterly bit of politics -- playing on gender prejudice and race baiting all in one breath.

    Those who don't see what was at play in that statement from the campaign, and others like it, most likely don't do so because they share the prejudices and resentments that were so masterfully and intentionally being appealed to. Or, they are closing their eyes and ears to reality because it would diminish their notions of their candidate's purity and transcendence of politics.

    But, whether Obama is personally a misogynist or not, is beside the point; there is no denying that his campaign played to those who are -- and willingly benefitted, without protest or condemnation, from the sexism displayed by his supporters in the media and online.

    Is that a reason to vote for McCain? No. Nor is it necessarily a reason to vote against Obama -- although I am personally morally repulsed by his campaign's tactical exploitation of both gender and racial (and to a lesser extent class, as well as generational) insecurities, prejudices, divisions, resentments and fears. As repulsed as I have long been by the Republican party's use of such tactics.

    I simply cannot excuse in Democrats what I have for decades denounced in the other party.

    But there is a bigger reason why all of this is important; the revelation of the depth and breadth of misogyny in the Democratic party, and the willingness of a major contender for party leadership to exploit it, goes a long way in explaining the lack of progress, and on some issues, back sliding, women have seen on issues of vital importance to them -- issues of both political and economic equality -- over the last 30 years.

    In other words, misogyny in both parties has had and continues to have consequences, real political and economic consequences, for women and the often especially vulnerable others (the young, the elderly) who depend on their support and care. Consequences that many of us believe the nation simply can no longer afford to let stand.

    Given that, the important question for people like me isn't party "unity." It has now become something much larger; how do we get these vital issues addressed outside of, regardless of, in spite of, the obstacles to doing so that BOTH parties represent.

    Obama has promised to address these issues of course. But so has every other Democrat who has run at any level over the last 30 years. Yet, they haven't done so.

    What this campaign has revealed is how empty that rhetoric is and has always been. The Obama campaign, unfortunately, because it was the first to be seriously challenged by a woman, provided an opportunity that earlier campaigns did not -- the opportunity to see the vast chasm between the party's rhetoric and its actual view of and concern for women and their issues.

    And that is the real problem women, the party, and Obama now face.


    Right - nothing sexist about that (5.00 / 7) (#72)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:03:03 PM EST
    brushing the b---h off gesture at all.

    Parent
    The REAL Family Values Candidate (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM EST
    With all the political exploitation of "Family Values" over the last 20 years, it's incredible to see just how bi-partisan the repudiation is of a candidate who espouses policies that really do effect the ability of families (of every description) to thrive in our culture.

    Misogyny, like racism, is a weapon used to maintain power and diminish anyone who threatens to level the playing field. Hillary Clinton, like Bill before her, really does champion change. That, more than her gender, is her sin in the eyes of those jealously guarding entrenched power. And her attackers really will "do anything to win"!

    Parent

    Nicely put ... Let me just add ... (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:21:55 PM EST
    I think Obama is a misogynist.  A couple of weeks after the Rev. Wright tapes first broke, Greta van Susteren did a brief segment on Black Liberation Theology and featured a BLT convention in Florida where the topic of Rev. Wright was being addressed directly.  While framed in an exculpatory light, the actual content shown in the video highlights was revealing.  

    In it, a preacher is comparing Wright's comments about the USA to the comments a loving husband might make to a wife before going out for the evening.  "If her hair is messed up, you'll tell her, right?  You don't want her going out with her hair messed up do you?  You know, sticking out this way and that" (big laughter from audience).  "That looks bad for her and it looks bad for you, so of course it's your duty to tell your wife when her hair looks bad.  Now that's all Rev. Wright was doing."  

    As you might expect from seeing Rev. Wright's antics in front of large crowds, it was all received with delirious approval by the assembled listeners, and it seemed that each new hoot and laugh from the listeners just encouraged the speaker to add new and more ridiculous embellishments.

    Afterwards I tried to find it posted on Fox web site, but it never was ... and BTW was never shown again.  

    Parent

    I can hear them now (5.00 / 22) (#35)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:40:14 PM EST
    They wanted to talk about the sexism, they really did. If that stupid b-word had quit sooner, they could have talked about it sooner.

    As I've said many, many times, if you think of these people as satirists, it makes their idiocy much easier to take.

    periodically, when she gets desperate, (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:56:28 PM EST
    Hillary attacks.

    If you google desperate hillary attacks you get this this site:
    owned by the Barack Obama campaign:HillaryAttacks

    Parent

    This sort of commentary by (5.00 / 13) (#38)
    by frankly0 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:42:00 PM EST
    this idiot from Nation is exactly like the suddenly high-minded, self-justifying bloviation we got out of the MSM after the Iraq war.

    In both cases, after the fact, the media declared that terribly biased and outrageous mistakes were being made before the event, but that, somehow, it was always someone else making those mistakes.

    There's never any accountability. They are the foxes in the henhouse, decrying that hens have been eaten.

    I find it (5.00 / 0) (#57)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:57:31 PM EST
    difficult to believe that if Rob Andrews had actually heard such things, he continued to support Senator Clinton. If he did, it shows perhaps more about him then it does her.

    Look, we don't need some (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by frankly0 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:57:52 PM EST
    alleged account of some former superdelegate to demonstrate that the Obama side engaged in race-baiting: we know it from the infamous SC memo, and the remarks of Jesse Jackson, Jr., among others.

    So don't lecture the Clinton side about the use of race, OK? This was obviously something that Obama explicitly and demonstrably used to his benefit -- and the payoff was his 90+% supports from AAs from SC and beyond.

    This is not a really deep comment (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by zyx on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:59:33 PM EST
    but I would just like to observe that it is kind of interesting, and odd, and so very sad, that some men just GET sexism, and yet relatively just don't.

    It doesn't seem to matter whether they are liberal, or conservative, or white or black or brown or spotted or striped.

    It was always that way, but it became really pronounced in 2008.  I appreciate the guys who get it a lot, and I am quite gobsmacked by the many who in my world who do not.

    How Ironical (5.00 / 5) (#68)
    by pluege on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:01:11 PM EST
    coming from someone connected with that so-called progressive rag that went sexist ballistic during the campaign to now trumpet 'e-gad, I smells me the acrid stank of sexism across the land' is quite amazing.

    Was it the Obama Aura that induced the drug cocktails in their brains that made them go temporarily insane promoting sexists laced diatribes, fomenting base-less republican sexist screeds, and ignoring the profound, perverse, and pervasive sexist theme of the primaries and now they're coming off their drug haze...or are they just unbelievable hypocrites incapable of anything even remotely close to accurate self-evaluation?

    If there is one thing that is difficult to (5.00 / 4) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:01:51 PM EST
    sometimes to manage when it comes to being human, it is that it often takes weeks and months to process our most passionate emotions alongside the things we said and did at that time.  America did a pretty good job of processing the whole of the Vietnam War and now will go through the same thing with the Iraq War.  People said and did a lot of things during the portion of it we have already lived that will follow all of us around and demand our attention and acknowledgement for years and even generations.  The same thing with this primary.  Many things that were said and done are going to make it into people's documentaries for decades as we continue to discuss America's gender equality challenges.  That's life, but things said and things done are far from processed and accounted for.  They will be though.  Hillary Clinton was never the B*tch, but karma is - and youtube and the internet.....I perceive those to be Giant B*tches Mr. Matthews and Mr. Olberman and Mr. Schuster and certain bloggers and on and on and on.

    I don't know if this is OT... (5.00 / 8) (#70)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:01:52 PM EST
    ...but I was reading Daily Kos.  I have gotten brave enough to go there in the last couple of days, since they have decided to be civil, at least until they realize that a lot of the people they are trying to court are not going to support Obama. At that point, I suspect they will stop being civil.

    But Markos commented that a state would be competitive again when people "come home" to the Democratic Party. I wonder if he realizes that many women feel that the Party has rejected them completely? I actually changed my registration. As far as I'm concerend, the house is burned down. Until we have a serious discussion of feminism, one which is not condescending to or dismissive of "older" feminists, I won't feel welcome in this party. It's not home any more. Politically... I'm homeless.

    I will never be a Kossack again (5.00 / 6) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    I don't care if they are going to be civilized NOW.

    Parent
    I won't go back to them either (5.00 / 8) (#89)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:12:41 PM EST
    I don't trust them. I don't trust Markos. I don't see the point in joining a club that can be so easily taken over by fanatics. I intentionally wrote a "GBCW" diary just so that I could break the ties and know that if I went back I'd be publicly making a food of myself.

    But I may come back to the Democratic Party after a while, if they convince me that they actually care about women's rights. I sympathize far more with Dems than Republcians. It's a sad statement when a lifelond Dem decides that it would be as bad to vote for her party as to vote for a party like the Republican Party. And I don't think it's just hurt feelings. I am pretty good at sorting out emotions from reason, and my brain tells me that the Democratic Party is no longer a reasonable option.

    Parent

    Agreed, never again (5.00 / 7) (#105)
    by pluege on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:24:05 PM EST
    they're garbage in my book. they showed who they really are; that their brand of progressivism is another brand of wingnut my-way-or-the-highwayism. And Marshall, Stoller, Bowers, Ameriblog, The Nation, Ygleseis, Olbermann...ain't worth spit. And last couple of weeks Atrios was losing his grip real fast - another week and he too would have joined them in the fetid dump of left blogosphere hypocrisy.

    Parent
    Ditto. (5.00 / 7) (#116)
    by lucky leftie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:32:19 PM EST
    When the kos community began attacking fellow democrats with more venom than is typically directed at the current administration, I swore off forever.  I understand now what kos and certain other progressive blogs really are-the democratic equivalent of conservative media.  They have their place in our party, I suppose, but for serious, objective reporting, go elsewhere.    

    Parent
    Good observation (5.00 / 4) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:36:22 PM EST
    They have their place in the grand scheme but the space they occupy is not a space that I choose to occupy.  I will apply myself and my efforts to other places and spaces.

    Parent
    I went to alexa.com (5.00 / 7) (#135)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:41:35 PM EST
    and I compared DailyKOS to FreeRepublic.com and the two seem to have almost identical viewership, with some highs and lows depending on the news of the day.

    Really, if KOS' ambition was to become Freeperville, I can only congratulate him on his success.

    Parent

    Exactly. (5.00 / 0) (#206)
    by lucky leftie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:23:48 PM EST
    I'd love to see examples (5.00 / 7) (#87)
    by lilburro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:12:19 PM EST
    of the introspection of progressive men on this issue.  Other than the people at Shakesville, and BTD, sexism has been basically ignored by male bloggers.  Daily Kos has comments running round rampant spouting incredibly offensive language to women.  Josh Marshall has written sexist remarks himself.  TPM Cafe isn't interested in the female vote.  There are a few male Clinton bloggers that have posted about the sexism.  They are few and relatively quiet.  

    We should google bomb such sites!  ;)  "Sexist progressive" or "hypocrite" anyone?

    Parent

    There have been a few more male... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:48:57 PM EST
    ...bloggers who have spoken out against the sexism. They are not the BIG BOYZ but they are the real men in my book.

    Parent
    Come home? (5.00 / 5) (#100)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:18:03 PM EST
    There is no home.

    LOL, good luck with that KOS.  

    Parent

    Business (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:03:51 PM EST
    Many of the sites are now money making busnesses. They made the decision to be aggressive and in your face. I think they figured they would endure a certain amount of backlash and then everyone would kiss and make up. I think the Obama camp feels the same way. I would be interested in KO ratings compared to 6 months ago? Also hits at some of these sites. 18,000,000 people have had to have some sort of impact.

    Parent
    You're not helping. (5.00 / 11) (#77)
    by eleanora on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:05:12 PM EST
    Seriously, this is a thread about the sexism used against Clinton in this election. Trying to change the subject to how badly Obama has been or will be treated is like telling us to STFU with our petty concerns and talk about the issues you'd rather discuss instead of the actual topic BTD posted on.

    Yes (5.00 / 10) (#118)
    by Dr Molly on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:33:43 PM EST
    First he tries to change the subject by dishing up some 'allegations' of racism, now it's 'let's anticipate the racism that Obama will face'. Some people just can't stay on topic when the topic is how sexism was used and exploited by The Precious in gaining the nomination. Wonder why?

    Parent
    this is a reply to a deleted comment (none / 0) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:48:44 PM EST
    it seems the (5.00 / 5) (#85)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:11:46 PM EST
    "profound lasting positive and progressive effect."

    was to (they think) get rid of Hillary once and for all.


    As I think my post indicated (5.00 / 9) (#86)
    by esmense on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:11:59 PM EST
    the issues I'm concerned about are much larger than either the Obama or the Clinton campaign, and much more important than who won or lost or how they won or lost (although, as I said, tactics were used that repulsed me).

    Obama has promised to address these issues, long standing issues of vital concern to women, of course. But so has every other Democrat who has run at any level over the last 30 years. Yet, they haven't done so.

    So let me repeat this; What this campaign has revealed is how empty that rhetoric (the Democrat's equality rhetoric and lip service appeals on issues aimed at winning women's votes) is and has always been. The Obama campaign, unfortunately, because it was the first to be seriously challenged by a woman, provided an opportunity that earlier campaigns did not -- the opportunity to see the vast chasm between the party's rhetoric and its actual view of and concern for women and their issues.

    Do you have anything to say about how we proceed from here, given the dimension of the problem revealed during this campaign season?

    Or, like the party establishment, do you really not think these issues ARE genuinely vital issues?


    I was thinking about this today, too... (5.00 / 0) (#142)
    by sander60tx on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:46:41 PM EST
    IF part of the so called healing process between the two camps included a frank discussion of sexism and racism and how we can move our country past both of them, that might help calm some of the ire that supporters of either candidate feel toward the other.

    Geraldine Ferraro has suggested a study to delve into the racism and sexism that occurred during the primary season.  I think that would be a start.

    I'm not sure it helps to point fingers about which campaign engaged in these practices.  It is clear that supporters of each candidate believe the opposing candidate engaged in racism and/or sexism.  Whether the perception is correct or not, there's not doubt that the perception exists.

    What this primary showed is that both racism and sexism are alive and well in our society.  And that could be a helpful thing IF people keep talking about it and take action against it, rather than sweeping it back under the rug.

    Yes, it is too late to impact the primary and many of us are angry and dissapointed about that.  But moving forward, there may be some things that could be done to improve the situation for the future.  Obama still has a chance to make good on promises to address issues vital to woman, as well as to people of color.  He could begin doing so now.  He does, afterall, now have a grip on the DNC.  He could start there.  

    Parent

    Although I absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by samanthasmom on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:17:22 PM EST
    respect Ferraro's call for a study, it will not change anything in time for the GE.  Should Obama make promises about what he is going to do about "the women's issues", I wouldn't believe him. I would figure that as soon as I voted for him, I'd be back under the bus.  And I'm finding I rather like it under here. The bus is moving and although I can't see where it's going from under here, I'm enjoying the company, and we'll see where the next bus stop is when we get there. No need to come from under before December.

    Parent
    The problem revealed in this campaign is (5.00 / 11) (#99)
    by esmense on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:17:40 PM EST
    a problem with the party.

    As other have said, Clinton will remain loyal to the party.

    But many of us are questioning whether that loyalty is deserved. Not because of who tops the ticket, but because of the long history of failure to act on issues we consider vital -- and the reasons for that failure (the institutional misogyny) revealed in the course of this campaign season.

    Which brings me to my question (5.00 / 6) (#137)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:42:12 PM EST
    What do we DO about all this? I am serious. The revelation (or confirmation) of the institutionalized sexism leads to what action?

    This is what I've been wrestling with. It feels so overwhelming that I can't figure out what the action is.

    Parent

    That is what discussion of sexism (5.00 / 6) (#162)
    by esmense on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:58:37 PM EST
    have to lead us to. What do we do about it and the negative consequences it has in women's lives and the lives of their families?

    Denying it exists, as Obama supporters want to do, or denying that it matters, puts an end to important conversations about the realities of women's lives.

    It's impossible to believe a movement that wants us to agree to that denial, in the cause of "unity," is ready and willing to address the issues that matter to us, or even sees or understands them.

    Parent

    It really is the 60s all over again (5.00 / 6) (#175)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:04:49 PM EST
    and women's suffrage before that.

    So-called progressives keep asking women to wait in the name of some faux unity.

    Parent

    What to do...what to do.... (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:12:29 PM EST
    yep...that's the question, alright.

    As individuals, it appears that quite a few of us are deciding to make choices of separation, withdrawal, partition -- and not 'pony up' to the Democratic Party any more.

    It's a start.

    Political parties are not family but after 50 years' investment, it feels like more than family...so the breakup is painful and the decision difficult.

    It's always easier to get a divorce, I suppose, if there is another lover waiting in the wings.  In this case...hmmm...feels right but feels lonely.  No political home to go to.

    Not yet.

    Hope I live long enough to see one develop.

    Parent

    otherlisa...you would do well not to bother with (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:23:55 PM EST
    spin doctor.  Just here to stir the pot.  But he has the backup of today's resident lurking troll rating guru, Sher.  Honestly, it is futile and is best to use your ignore button.

    Waiting for the customary backlash from (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:25:17 PM EST
    trollville.

    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 6) (#125)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:37:40 PM EST
    You mean "unity ambassador".

    Parent
    Theresa....sorry...my bad (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:39:39 PM EST
    Or 'Unity Units' n/t (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:39:52 PM EST
    Uni-bots (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:44:29 PM EST
    What's needed to REALLY talk about sexism (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:26:03 PM EST
    Correct.  We are not really talking about sexism yet.  What would it take to make that happen?  Two things, I think.  Organization and leadership.  

    On organization:  The issue of "what is sexism" is most effectively managed by formal organizations.  The nature of some bigotries has been spelled out well by the leadership of groups like the NAACP and the Anti-Defamation League.  Women's advocacy groups must clearly and consistently define sexism whenever they see it; it is being seen as too ambiguous, when it really isn't.  But these groups are caught up in the vicious cycle of not being taken as seriously as African-American or Jewish groups.  As long as they're divided, they can too easily be dismissed.  They must unite now on this issue.

    On leadership: Strong leaders can set a national tone on bigotry.  For starters, we need the equivalent of an Obama race speech.  The DNC should proactively recruit someone to take this role (as penance).

    As for why bigotry is more accepted against women, women are different because I've noticed they're rather more abundant and omnipresent than minorities.  Familiarity breeds contempt. Blacks and Jews have an "otherness" that gives them an authority to set the rules on how they're treated.    Women, despite the Mars/Venus crap, apparently are not sufficiently Other.  Men feel so familiar with women they actually feel comfortable defining sexism for us.  Thus Hillary's run, mindboggingly, was not considered sufficiently historic or representing change.  This makes it a tougher nut to crack, so a much larger and perhaps different kind of effort must be made.  MUST be made.


    And I am waiting for Women to find their electoral (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Salt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:26:26 PM EST
    power and wield it not for a Party or a Wedgie but for our communities of interest we have the numbers without any other groups help if need be.

    What I find amazing (5.00 / 11) (#111)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:27:04 PM EST
    is that the pundits think it's enough to acknowledge that this happened. It's all so passive, though, isn't it?

    They never take responsibility for their role in the promotion of sexism and misogyny, and thus, they don't have to take any action to prevent it from happening again.

    Media passivity and "The Narrative" (5.00 / 9) (#132)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:40:20 PM EST
    Madamab, that's driven me battier than nearly anything this campaign.  

    At Shakesville, I just got finished commenting with this same point in a hilarious thread on hated new words and phrases.

    My entry was so-called journalists' use of the phrase "The Narrative."

    As in : "Good evening. We regret that we will not be reporting to you tonight on [INSERT ATROCITY HERE] because it doesn't fit The Narrative. Of course, we remain utterly puzzled as to who created The Narrative, who is perpetuating it, or who decreed we must obey it."


    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 7) (#165)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:00:24 PM EST
    That is so true it's frightening.

    Reminds me of when Bush was inaugurated in 2001 - the Onion's headline was: "Our Long National Nightmare of Peace and Prosperity Has Finally Ended."

    I never thought the "progressive" media would become as satire-defying as the MCM. But they are, Blanche, they are.

    Parent

    Not only that (5.00 / 4) (#151)
    by CST on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:53:48 PM EST
    I am sure if one of them says anything condemning sexism they will then pat themselves on the back for being such good reporters after they spent months ignoring or promoting it.  Now that it's all over, I could actually see that happening.  

    Parent
    I'm absolutely positive (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:01:07 PM EST
    that this is exactly what will happen...in fact, I think that's what the Nation article is all about.

    Too little, too late, guys.

    Parent

    Attention to sexism (5.00 / 11) (#122)
    by vcmvo2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:36:46 PM EST
    seems to be seen as an admisssion of failure on the part of progressives (and they refuse to do this). Many are attempting to recognize it and then having "recognized" its existence, brush it right under the rug again. Many are mind-numbingly engaged in the exercise of why sexism exists but in this case it never happened. It's denial and it is enraging to see so many engage in the practice.

    It was the sexism and misogyny that first made me pay attention to Hillary's campaign. She was not my first candidate, but then she sold me on her policies. And what a fighter! I would have shriveled up if all that animus was directed at me. It has really been a learning experience having seen her achieve all she did in spite of everything arrayed against her!

    The Nation (5.00 / 10) (#129)
    by Stellaaa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:39:48 PM EST
    are they looking for redemption?  They stood by all of them cowards and silent.  BTD you spoke up all along the way.  I do not trust anyone on the left anymore.  They have proven to be trapped in their own weak identity constructs.  

    Why is this surprising (5.00 / 7) (#144)
    by ChuckieTomato on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:47:03 PM EST
    The left did nothing when Al Gore was attacked in '00. In fact, it was common for leftist commentators  to join tweety in a daily bashing. This year it was Hillary. Who will it be in the next election? It won't stop until voters stop it.

    MSNBC is the worst of the bunch

    Parent

    No comparison. NONE. (4.20 / 5) (#230)
    by echinopsia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:33:12 PM EST
    Al was attacked as an individual. There was no sexism or racism involved. People DID stand up for him, as I recall.

    Hillary was attacked with sexism and misogyny. It is far more damaging and toxic because it was an attack on ALL women.

    And finally, this is just another attempt, whether you realize it or not, to minimize and trivialize what was done to Hillary Clinton in this primary, and what was not only tolerated but encouraged and done by Democrats.

    Which is why, by the way, I can no longer BE a Democrat.

    Parent

    Thought I couldn't get any more cynical... (5.00 / 4) (#139)
    by lucky leftie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:44:09 PM EST
    ...about our party until I witnessed self-identified progressives turning a blind eye and in some cases engaging in sexist smears, for political expedience.  Sickening. Eric Boehlert has also written about this and to his credit, he wrote his article while the primary was still going on.  I'll get over my disappointment with the outcome of the primary soon, but I won't soon forget the way Clinton was treated.  

    at dkos 3 Obama diaries used a visual threat (5.00 / 10) (#143)
    by dotcommodity on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:46:58 PM EST
    a picture of a wire coat hanger - intended to scare women into voting with the Obamamob, or take our chances with McCain.

    Imagine if we Hillary voters demanded black progressives (balking at voting for our choice) get with the program by posting a picture of a noose hanging from a tree to illustrate taking your chances with McCain.

    There is unbelievable use of physical threats to women who don't vote as they want, that would be understood as horrifying intimidation if a similar threat was aimed at black people.

    Slightly OT here (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:17:57 PM EST
    but are guys so ignorant of progress that they think that a wire-coat hanger would be the only way to get an illegal abortion these days? It's like threatening someone with having to go back to the rotary phone, or punch card computing, or black and white TV.

     Don't let them scare you with wire coat hangars. Technological progress and the internet has assured that wire coat hangers need never be used again.

    Parent

    Those who attacked Clinton? (5.00 / 1) (#238)
    by echinopsia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:38:08 PM EST
    are guys so ignorant of progress

    In a word, yes. Not likely that such sexism would go along with knowledge of or interest in the functions of ladyparts except for recreational (and I don't mean reproductive here) use.

    Girls are icky, dontchaknow.

    Parent

    That is utterly outrageous (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:34 PM EST
    The politics of fear indeed.

    Parent
    How about a petition to the DNC to convene forums (5.00 / 0) (#156)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:55:36 PM EST
    On sexism and racism?

    I'd like this conversation to coalesce into a clear action.  Other suggestions?

    When Dems work as quickly to decry sexism (5.00 / 5) (#160)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:57:36 PM EST
    ... as the half a news cycle it took to slap a "sternly worded letter" demanding the historical candidate Sen Clinton she had a day to fold her tent after a year and a half of leaving her on her own to face unremitting, unprecedented bigotry ...

    that's the day I'll consider rejoining the party.

    I cleaned up this thread (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:57:49 PM EST
    As it veered wildly and destructively off topic.

    Talking about sexism (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by calvin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:01:04 PM EST
    Right after the Fourth of July, I intend to write to every candidate running in my county (52 candidates in Strafford County, NH) and ask them to respond to a series of questions relating to the rampant sexism in our society and what they will do about it.

    I will only vote for the candidates who directly address the issues -- not only in response to me but publicly in their speeches and Town Hall meetings.

    I'm waiting until after July 4th to give us all some time to settle down and because I need to think of some really good questions that will force honest answers.

    I welcome any suggestions.

    political cost of sexism (5.00 / 2) (#169)
    by clinton dem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:01:29 PM EST
    The fact that extremely brutal sexist anti-Hillary campaign cost us to not to have the most competent and qualified president ever I known to work with since Kennedy.  Hillary's campaign was a wake up call for many women like myself who for so many primaries and elections volunteered for our male , and yes incompetent , candidates to only loose in GE. The fact of the matter is that this time I will not donate even one minute nor pay a penny to an incompetent male candidate just to unit the party. The party is dead as far as I am concerned.

    The DNC, progressive blogs and MSM (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by ChuckieTomato on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:16 PM EST
    chose the unqualified male over the fully qualified female. No surprise. It's about time to stop calling the DNC and these magazines and blogs progressive

    Parent
    I have the power, now (5.00 / 12) (#170)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:02:26 PM EST
    I'm heartbroken that Hillary did not get the nomination.  I was enraged at every low, mean-spirited, misogynistic comment I heard, or heard of.

    But now I'm cold, grim, determined and serene (and yes, I know those are contradictory emotions).

    I've been waiting a long time for this moment.  I would have prefered the other moment, the one watching Clinton sworn in as President.  But this one will do for now.

    I have it and they want it.  My vote, my support, and my service.  My goodwill.  My energy and my time.

    They are screaming, spoiled children who, having broken their toys are tantruming such to break their own bones because I won't buy them new ones.

    I have the power.  To say no.  Not this time, and not ever again.

    Clinton inspires me.  No, not to make nice, although her graciousness and ability to rise above are among the traits I admire most in her.  But to meet these spoiled children not with reluctant acquiesence, or accepting the bad deal they've been trying to hand me, but with the same steely determination TN's author sees in Clinton.    And to say no, not this time, not now, not ever.

    They failed to define her, and they will not define me.  They won't blackmail me, or browbeat me, or force me to submit.

    Declining to support sexism and misogyny by witholding support from Obama is not contrary to any exhortations she may make on his behalf.

    Her best path to accomplish her agenda, and ours, may be to smile and shake his hand.  But my best path is to say no, to let Obama stand on his own, if he can, and tell these spoiled children that it's time for bed.  They will learn or they won't.    But they won't win with my help.  No, not now, not ever.

    Also heartbroken (5.00 / 5) (#177)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:08:17 PM EST
    And tired of attack politics.  First we had to do battle with Bush friends and family, now it's Obama people attacking us.  You know if HE had been pushed off the ballot three days ago, they'd all be out rioting in the streets, at least, that was the claim.  Hillary was pushed off the ballot three days ago and because her supporters haven't held Obama Pep Rallies, we are attacked.  

    Hadenough?  You bet.  Enough of the right and the left.

    Parent

    Emails from Ellen (5.00 / 3) (#214)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:26:28 PM EST
    this morning...

    "...EMILY's List members, like all Democrats, are experiencing varying emotions -- but we are unified in our determination to undo the damage created by George W. Bush and the Republicans. I am confident that our party will unify as well, and come together to take the White House in November. And, once again, EMILY's List will unleash the political power of women to help Democrats win at every level in 2008 so we can begin to rebuild a progressive America.

    Ummm...I have to go write Ellan an email now and introduce her to PUMA, reflecting on the sexism promoted and encouraged by some of the very women I (and EMILY) helped elect to congress.

    Talk about infuriating...

    Parent

    I think that Clinton Derangement Syndrome has been (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:03:25 PM EST
    just as disturbing as sexism. There were hundreds of irrational claims that the Obama blogs used to justify their dislike of her and they continually misintrepreted her remarks in the worst way possible.

    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:09:25 PM EST
    A difference between the two is that one syndrome is unfairly directed at two people, while the other is directed at 51% of the human race.  That makes me a little more disturbed about the latter.

    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:12:00 PM EST
    this is exactly right.  The sexism was rampant, but I think women are used to that (not cool with it, but used to it).  What really got to me was the demonization of both Clintons.  Axelrod chose Bill Clinton as Enemy No. One to unite Obama's voters.  Now, he's created a monster.  We'll see if they can ramp down the vitriol and attack mode enough to unite the party.

    Good Luck!

    Parent

    Yeah, (5.00 / 2) (#224)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:30:42 PM EST
    The Obama campaign and the blogs gave a portrayal of the Clintons that was ridiculous. She was a dshonest, DLC, war-monger, who would do anything to win. And they portrayed Obama as the antithesis to this. Even though they were reall similar on the issues. And millions of people bought it especially the blogosphere which was supposed to be more informed. That's why I think it was so disturbing.

    Parent
    Retuers has an article up (5.00 / 5) (#176)
    by eleanora on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:07:33 PM EST
    "As Clinton's bid ends, sexism debate will not"  with some interesting quotes:

    Camille Paglia: ""Will every losing woman candidate now turn on the waterworks and claim to be maimed by male pride and prejudice?"

    Peggy Noonan "Hillary got her share, more than her share, of their votes. She should be a guy and say thanks."

    And a poll from Glamor Magazine saying only 12% thought sexism played a role in this campaign--

    "But roughly a third each found sexism's role was moderate, minor or nonexistent. Seeing sexism as largely an issue of the past, some women find the notion that they should back a candidate merely because she's a woman insulting."
    Yeah, Glamor Magazine, that respected hotbed of feminist political reporting.

    The article does talk about the Iron My Shirt crowd and how John McCain is sexist, but nothing about the blogs or the Obama campaign or the DNC. Poor Ellie Smeal gets tagged on at the very end with "We are in much worse shape than we thought." I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.

    Bwahaha! (5.00 / 6) (#200)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:17:43 PM EST
    Camille Paglia, the anti-feminists' feminist, and Peggy Noonan?

    This is a classic stealth attack on women.  Bring up sexism and find any woman on earth to disagree and you have totally and utterly refusted the allegation!  It's like ... magic!  It's the misogyny rules:  If a billion women, or a billion men and women, say something is sexist, one person with female body parts who disagrees invalidates the whole thing.

    Parent

    Let me get this straight... (5.00 / 7) (#207)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:24:26 PM EST
    [excuse me while I collect the pieces of my head...]

    Reuters is citing a GLAMOUR MAGAZINE ONLINE POLL OF ONE HUNDRED AND TEN VOTES as evidence of women seeing sexism as an "issue of the past"?

    A non-poll, that if it had been real, would be far more accurately depicted as "64% of respondents said that sexism played a role in the campaign."

    Reuters has destroyed its credibility with this.  Citing a non-poll, and bizarrely misinterpreting its non-results, as evidence to fit The Narrative.

    We must act, people.

    Parent

    Christopher Hayes (5.00 / 8) (#186)
    by Nadai on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:12:02 PM EST
    and most of the rest of the so-called progressive media can bite me.  Brush aside?  They didn't brush aside the sexism women face every frigging day, they openly derided the very concept and then called us all b!tches to boot.  And now they want to do a little introspecting?

    How dare they?  I mean it - how frigging dare they?  You think you somehow get points for suddenly noticing that you've been beating the crap out of me and other women for months, Mr. Hayes?  You think you can bring me some flowers and a 500 word column and that obligates me to forgive you?  Or worse yet, to say that you haven't really done anything that requires forgiveness and we all get a little heated sometimes?

    Think again.  You had your chance for introspection.  You had your chance to behave with something approaching decency.  You failed.  Nothing you say matters now.  You want a "profound lasting positive and progressive effect"?  Then STFU.

    Did someone spike the Kool-Aid (5.00 / 8) (#203)
    by janarchy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:21:04 PM EST
    I find it highly amusing that everyone and his uncle suddenly 'discovered' that there was sexism in the primary race but, of course, not from THEM of course. The Daily Show did a very good piece on it last night (including a bunch of clips from Tweety, Tucker Carlson and a few others but, of course, leaving out Mr Liberal Himself, KO). It was very pointed and truthful. But all I could think was "what the F took you so long, Jon?"

    It's like Barackutus of the Borg sent out a message lifting their anti-sexism block so they could now talk about it. Incredible.

    Too little, too late. (And I know it's off topic but I find the whole wave of supers flipping before Clinton can even do her own endorsing and talk to her troups to be utterly disgusting. Yet another reason I'm thrilled to be out of that Party. No money for you, Barbara Boxer!)

    Who cares what anyone says anymore (5.00 / 5) (#212)
    by LeelaSavage on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:51 PM EST
    about how Hillary was treated.  

    IMHO, it's all just rhetoric meant to sooth the growing sense of death inside our souls that our country, our culture, will never be free in our lifetimes of the attitude that its okay to promote an inexperienced man of any color and any age over a mature and capable woman.  

    I feel certain that Obama's supporters will fill the pages of every forum with words of understanding and sympathy.  

    All of this post-vote-stealing cacophony from them reminds me of the scene from the movie, Contact, where Dr. David Drumlin, after cheating and lying his way to the top of the list of a project that he really had no history with until it became a news item through the work of Dr. Eleanor Ann Arroway is sympathetically telling Dr. Arroway how sorry he is that world is so hard on people who speak the truth.  

    Her reply was poignant, and very appropriate in this campaign.  She said, "Its funny, i always thought the world was what we make of it."  

    And so it is.  Karma plays for keeps.  I hope Obama and all of his supporters remember that come November.  

    Regardless of what is said, of how much the apologists deny it, deep in our hearts we all know this campaign has signaled the end of something very dear to all of us.  Our love affair with "change" will be forever tarnished with the rust of a tyro's old world tactics.  

    It's all such a waste.  And that breaks my heart.


    two things (5.00 / 3) (#237)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:36:29 PM EST
    1. Men don't learn until there's real consequences.  In this case the thought doesn't count.  You take away something they need or want and then.  And only then.  They learn.

    2.  For anyone out there claiming that it does not affect all women because its not directed at all women but just at Clinton needs a quick lesson.   Now think and learn.  What I'm about to say doesn't affect all AAs its only directed at obama:

    Ready for what I'm about to say.

    I won't say I think you're already starting to get up to speed on the issue.  Pop quizzes may still be given.

    Sexist Venom I Expected From Re- (5.00 / 1) (#246)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:14:39 PM EST
    Publicans.

    I didn't expect it from Kos, Aravosis, MoDo, HuffPo, et al.

    Not to mention Obama & Obamists.

    Silly me.

    PS to above commenter.  plse check hx of voting rights in usa, black males vs. white females and black females.  60 years, was it?  that's a long time.

    Oh, and in better answer to BTD? (5.00 / 0) (#247)
    by No Blood for Hubris on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 08:18:48 PM EST
    No, we're not really talking about it.

    But this is a good first step.

    We could talk about how uncomfortable some of it find talking about it.  So much so that we'd rather start an argument about something totally unrelated.

    Than actually talking about sexism.

    You know, sexism amongst so-called "progressives."  

    I mean, eee-ew.

    who would admit to that?

    "they know it's wrong -- but they do it anyway!!"

    It has no place (1.75 / 4) (#39)
    by SpinDoctor on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:43:22 PM EST
    Sexism, overt or disguised, has no place in our country anymore and certainly not in the Democratic party.  It ought to be condemned by everyone, particularly Obama supporters.  Whatever disagreement Obama supporters might have with Senator Clinton, the campaign's tactics or their suppoprters, it never justifies excusing sexism or being silent in the face of it.  Not as Democrats.

    As the general election begins to heat up, I hope that Talk Left will be vigilant in exposing the inevitable racially motivated attacks that will be thrown at Senator Obama.  We saw some early signs this week when they attempted to make the "dap" between Obama and his wife as some kind of symbol of black seperatistism.  

    Stay on topic (5.00 / 3) (#154)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:54:18 PM EST
    Ha, I should go through all my HuffPo comments (none / 0) (#227)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:32:18 PM EST
    and pull out the ones that reign in the sexist and ageist posters.  Probably a third of my postings were calling others on their sexism.

    Newt, long time feminist

    Parent

    Cool breeze over here (1.66 / 6) (#97)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:16:06 PM EST
    Reading all those posts, oh , dear §
    I live in the UK; I am a registered democrat since 76; I am now a democrat Abroad, I am quite proud of our group, we have Obamas + Edwards + Clinton and even 1 Richardson .We do argue, but the level of hate ; thank heaven; we are spared.
    We even shake hands with the McCains , imagine !
    while reading some blogs, we dont find it hard to be able to differentiate bile spewing from hearsay, intemperate language; yes Jeralyn; some posts got us minds boggling ; I wish somep people got to realize that there is a world of difefrence between the candidates and some of their fans who can be very silly in both camps ! BOTH, the obots and the clintonbots
    yes you are all acting like kids who were denied an extra portion of icecream
    life goes on kiddo
    I know who I dont want in the WH for a very long time. Period,not because he is a nice likable guy, but because of his policy that does not mean I am going to call names his fans.
    Whatever happened is over, over. Life goes on nad sen Clinton is clearly above par from some of her so called friends who are not paying her any compliment, I can tell you.
    Life does not limit herself to Obama or Hillary, what count is what they are going to do.
    So please if the kitchen gets too hot for you walk around; but please calling names is not helping. Some O.s are rabid I grant you, buut that is not allowing you to be as nutty as them.

    Attempting to deny the feelings (5.00 / 4) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:25:58 PM EST
    of half the party that feels slighted will get you NO UNITY.......psychology 101!  If you don't like reading people "expressing" then please move along because posts like this do no one any unity favors!

    Parent
    Not aiming at you (1.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:37:04 PM EST
    Mam was all the bots ; not you. I grant you living abroad also to be spared the garbage. I see the broader picture and grant you did not suffer the close combat
    IMHO, Clinton cant win without us and o. cant win without you
    sort of d** if you do and d** if you dont
    so yes it is nevcessary to bite the bullet and dont think that it is only your side who thinks had it though
    it was a fight aming siblings, not a pretty sight
    I believe that we can agree the actual system of caucuses and primaries is wrong, but that is not the fault of the candidates
    and personnally I dont think that delegates snatching is a great democratic moment
    in heaven sake we did not need those delegates
    IMO some people were in it to strike a point against Clintons, I doubt very much it was a decision of the O. camp because it can only irritate you and prevent unity
    I cant help wondering if some people in teh dnc are in their right minds

    Parent
    What does sexism have to do with what you (5.00 / 4) (#134)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:40:40 PM EST
    are posting now?  The topic is sexism in the primary.

    Parent
    Thanks for the unintentional humor, Oceandweller. (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by BoGardiner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:33:43 PM EST
    Writing in to tell us that we are nutty, bile-spewing clintonbots.  Why?  For namecalling!

    That certainly put a smile on MY face.

    Parent

    Read (none / 0) (#152)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:54:04 PM EST
    I am saying that the sexist part of the campaign was and I am mercifully awarre of it
    shawn when one lives abroard.
    Yes , we did not see that part; we were sparred the cleavage part which I just discovered today thanks to my daughter's friend.
    that was arevelation especially after having witnessed the french GE which had a woman as her party nominee and in fact quite a few women as contenders
    strangely enough those comments were not raised in Paris, so I am really strating to get why you are mad, and my comments say that calling nams is not the good answer against thatnever was.
    This typer of commenton Fix would have seenthe french male competitors very angry. I am for the first time very happy mu assignment is not yet back home....

    Parent
    sexism (1.00 / 9) (#8)
    by 1jane on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:21:23 PM EST
    Is there a definition of sexism? First, Second and Third wave feminists each define the evolving nature of sexism differently. What's sexism to you may not be sexism to your friend. Will the legacy of Clinton's run for office be one of sexism? Will more female candidates run or be discouraged in the future? Were critical comments about the failure of their campaign strategy to organize on the ground and failure of Mark Penn be assigned as sexism?

     

    Was there sexism in this campaign? (5.00 / 17) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:24:21 PM EST
    Did you condemn it?

    You DO realize that not everything is about Obama I hope.

    I detest, strike that, I am not allowed to say that even If I think it, I DISLIKE comments like yours. I really do.

    Parent

    Sexism is a double standard (5.00 / 12) (#19)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:31:40 PM EST
    When you have male candidates that have been treated one way in the modern political era and then suddenly treat a candidate, and that candidate is a woman, that double standard is sexism. Example: As Media Matters pointed out, no other candidate in Hillary's position was ever treated with such ugly venom for staying in the race as long as she did.

    Sexism is also being insulted because of your gender. During this campaign, Hillary was called a bit@h, who@e, cun#, nurse ratchet, witch, and compared to cat and the psycho female in Fatal Attraction.  In addition, Hillary was also the victum of a whisper and tabloid campaign that she was a lesbian and other attacks on her sexuality.

    Parent

    don't forget (5.00 / 11) (#84)
    by pluege on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    HRC also:

    • pimped her daughter
    • her laugh is like a knife through the ears (or some such thing)
    • wears ugly pants suits
    • had the audacity to have cleavage
    • had the audacity to have a shot of whiskey
    • faked tears
    • in a nationally televised public debate was asked about her husband's marital infedelity


    Parent
    You forgot (5.00 / 9) (#93)
    by cmugirl on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:14:43 PM EST
    comments about her laugh and thick ankles.

    Funny how we don't hear about Obama's big ears or sneering look.

    Parent

    & also forgot (5.00 / 6) (#189)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:13:05 PM EST
    that one of his campaign's theme songs was "I got 99 problems, but a b*tch ain't one."

    AND THE MEDIA NEVER ONCE CALLED HIM OUT FOR THAT.

    Gross.  Absolutely disgusting.

    Parent

    NPR had a piece about how it was (5.00 / 3) (#226)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:31:58 PM EST
    fair to mention Clinton's laugh because she laughed to avoid answering some questions.  I was quite disappointed in this piece.  

    Parent
    Agreed. (none / 0) (#82)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:09:32 PM EST
    Sexism is also being insulted because of your gender.
    Now, are you sure she was insulted because of her gender, or was her gender used to insult her?

    Parent
    Bless your heart, but you are badly (5.00 / 18) (#29)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:36:46 PM EST
    misstating the distinctions, the wave theory, and more -- but misstating is your mantra hear.

    The definition of feminism has not changed for more than 100 years.  And you could look it up.  But, as ever, be careful of your sources.  Obamamemos, your usual sources, are not reliable on this.:-)

    Parent

    Ugh. cx: "your mantra here" (5.00 / 9) (#31)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:38:16 PM EST
    <Note to self:  Must not reply or even read 1jane's crazy-making comments.>

    Parent
    Applying offensive cliches (5.00 / 12) (#32)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:39:46 PM EST
    ...to a female candidate. If it couldn't be used against a man, then it isn't appropriate for Clinton, unless it specifically and appropriately references the impact of her gender on the election. Similarly, if it could be used against a white man, it is an acceptable attack for Obama, unless it specifically is geared toward discussing the effect of his race on the election.

    It's pretty simple, really. Change "she" to "he" and if it doesn't make sense and/or sounds less insulting, then it isn't acceptable.

    Parent

    what is sexism? (5.00 / 22) (#54)
    by lilburro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:55:51 PM EST
    this is sexism:

    You got that right! (1.00 / 8) (#117)
    by 1jane on Fri May 30, 2008 at 12:43:34 PM EST

    Time to concede. The spectacle of unhappy women of a certain age protesting tomorrow at the RBC will be burned into every voters brain.

    I know it when I see it.

    Parent

    It's like pornography (5.00 / 6) (#56)
    by Manuel on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:56:26 PM EST
    There are shades of sexism but we all know it when we see it.

    Parent
    Clinton dislike not = sexism (1.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Rashomon66 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:57:29 PM EST
    I know a lot of women who really dislike Hillary. I wouldn't call them sexist. And, in fact, some of the worst things said about Clinton were said by women.
    A lot of the media also don't like the Clintons, which doesn't excuse the sexism but it does explain their attitude toward her candidacy.
    I would say sexism does exist but I don't tie it to the fact that Hillary lost the Primary. That is, unless you believe the media tells us what to think. I don't believe that it does. Voters are not that dumb.

    STOP THE Effing Deflection (5.00 / 10) (#163)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:59:31 PM EST
    This is not about why Clinton lost.

    Can you, are you capable of  just plain talking about the rampant sexism in this campaign without trying to make it about Obama? If you can not, then do not participate in this thread.

    Parent

    Didn't you get the memo? (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:13:15 PM EST
    It's all about Obama.

    Parent
    Did sexism affect the campaign (none / 0) (#192)
    by Rashomon66 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:18 PM EST
    I don't believe I mentioned Obama.
    If one wants to talk about sexism during the campaign then one has to mention the campaign. And therefore, where the campaign ended up is pertinent to the conversation. Isn't it? The two are not exclusive in this case.
    This is my perspective. Sorry.
    The point is if sexism does exist [and I will agree it does] what were the effects on the campaign?
    If this is just a thread about sexism in general then, yes, it is rampant in America and Hillary persevered against it quite well. I would hope the media would get spanked for some of the things they say and continue to spew.

    Parent
    so the answer is No (5.00 / 4) (#217)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:06 PM EST
    you are NOT capable of discussing the rampant sexism and condemn it.

    That's what I thought.

    Parent

    I agree with you; (none / 0) (#221)
    by Oceandweller on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:29:12 PM EST
    As said above, living abroad, I was sparred a lot , a very large lot of sexist garbage and I just finished reviewing excerpts of sexist comments and I am flabbergasted, and I thought italians, frenchs etc were backwards
    OMG
    I am glad I am living in Merry England, because none of that nonsense would have had the chance to carry on but once
    Old stricklers they are. Merkel did not get elected about her cleavage and Royal would not have tolerated it one minute.
    This american media really needs to go back to 101.
    Admittedly late, being told better late than never I see the point of many of those earlier comments which sounded like whining.
    Sorry gals, most sincere apologies but I have been blessed to live on the other side of the pond, and just got into the campaign ever so lightly I registered again when I left France, paid my due to the british window of our party, voted through the Iowa ballot and that was it. So I was sparred and discover a very ugly picture I dont think the vast majority of O-voters are approving those sexist attacks but certainly could and should have done better than turning a blind eye. Not all of them having the real excuse of being tuned to the RAI or the Beeb...


    Parent
    Point Taken Rashomon! (none / 0) (#234)
    by Gambit on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM EST
    Well said! Can any one reconcile the fact that a lot of women said some of the stupidest things about hillary? what's up with that? oh and by the way, by the raw numbers, most of the "other side's" support were women. are they sexist? maybe so, i'm askin.

    Parent
    The media tries to.... (5.00 / 2) (#219)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:28:17 PM EST
    That is, unless you believe the media tells us what to think. I don't believe that it does. Voters are not that dumb.

    They put their thumbs on the scale and try to influence the outcome rather than just report on the facts and issues. That's what happpened to Gore in 2000. And sadly, though you can't fool all of the people all of the time, you can fool enough people to influence an election if your voice is distorting the news to promote your agenda.

    Parent

    It's hard to measure... (5.00 / 2) (#233)
    by lucky leftie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:34:23 PM EST
    ...the impact of negative press.  Do you believe that the media's depiction of "Gore the Liar" impacted the election in 2000?  How about the readiness with which the media propagated the swiftboat yarns, without a shred of evidence? Many democrats believe that negative press hurt our chances in both elections.

    It may not be the only reason Hillary lost, but it was a factor outside of her control that she should never have had to deal with.  What will you think if the media portrays Michelle Obama as a shrew or a castrating witch?  Or some other woman in our party?  It was a huge mistake to turn a blind eye to it, and I suspect that mistake will come back to haunt us, as a party.  You can't tell gasbags like Chris Matthews "Hey, you can't do that to this democrat, but that one is fair game."    

    Parent

    Right, you know a lot of women (5.00 / 2) (#243)
    by katana on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 03:06:47 PM EST
    I know a lot of women who really dislike Hillary.

    Of course, you do.  And I'm sure you know a lot men who really dislike Hillary.  Not to mention gorillas, chimps, dogs, cats, salamanders and goldfish.  You undoubtedly know a whole menagerie that really dislikes Hillary (Senator Clinton, to the grownups, by the way).

    Why do you bother continuing to visit here?  Your man won.  Why don't you go someplace and drink champagne, and entertain all these non-sexist women you know with some really good, vicious b*tch and c*nt jokes. Use the ugliest words.  Paint the ugliest images.  Get so graphic that the nastiest rapper would blush.  (By the way, I'm curious how you'll respond if one these non-sexist women says, "I know a lot of black men who really dislike Obama racist."  Well, given your pretentious alias, I suppose you'll just chuckle and make some wry remark about the relativity of truth.  Or maybe not.)

    But, please, if you insist on coming here, at least stop pretending that you want anything except Senator Clinton's complete annihilation.  At least have the courage of your ill-disguised and antagonism.  

     

    Parent

    Some of you are obviously that dumb (none / 0) (#244)
    by RalphB on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 03:22:16 PM EST
    and probably dumber.


    Parent
    To be fair to the Obama campaign, (none / 0) (#124)
    by JDM in NYC on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:37:26 PM EST
    it was Roger Stone who created Citizens United...
    and I think he would have no compunction at all creating an anti-Obama group with a name beginning with N.