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Sexism: Are We Really Talking About It?

Over at TAPPED, Christopher Hayes, the Editor of The Nation, writes:

What was most striking about her campaign was the sexist venom directed at her from so many corners of the establishment, and the steely resolve with which she faced it down. That dynamic is what, I think, helped her win New Hampshire, avoid an early demise, and inspire the passionate support she gained from white women of her generation. These women are the backbone of the Democratic coalition, and they live life within the chaffing confines of a culture that feels as if it has, depressingly, outrageously, grown more sexist over the last several decades. As a male writer, I can say this lived reality is probably too easy for me to brush aside. But as Dana Goldstein pointed out, the presence of these sentiments, in all their vulgarity, presented progressive men with ample occasion for introspection on the ways in which progressive politics, and the discourse we all engage in sometimes explicitly, and more often tacitly, reinforces this power imbalance. This will, I hope, I believe, have a profound lasting positive and progressive effect.

(Emphasis supplied.) Excuse me Mr. Hayes, too many so-called progressive men and, some women, say it is irrelevant. I am still waiting for that "profound lasting positive and progressive effect."

Speaking for me only

Comments closed

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  • Display: Sort:
    Well, Golly Gee... (5.00 / 22) (#1)
    by AmyinSC on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:10:00 PM EST
    Where the HECK were these kinds of articles over the PAST 16 MONTHS?!?!?!  Why wait until IT IS TOO LATE to say anything??  Seems to me that is STILL taking the easy way out!  Just sayin'.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 12) (#6)
    by chancellor on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:55 PM EST
    After John Edwards dropped out, the entire Nation staff jumped into the tank for Obama. Were they all so afraid that to stand up for Hillary--as a woman--would irreparably damage Obama? No, I think that The Nation these days is just another example of shoddy journalism and the media attempting to select the parties' candidates. I have already removed The Nation from my bookmarks.

    [ Parent ]
    Disappointed (5.00 / 14) (#11)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:23:06 PM EST
    I don't understand why The Nation had to pick sides, why did any of the progressive blogs have to pick sides and only cherry pick diaries and facts to advantage their candidate. It was a big mistake and probably contributed to the divide in the party more than anything else.

    [ Parent ]
    Good Question (5.00 / 9) (#15)
    by AmyinSC on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:27:24 PM EST
    The question REALY is: why does this country not have TRUE journalists anymore?  WAY too many of the journalists now are also pundits - look at people like Nedra Pickler of the AP - she has been infusing her articles with personal opinion for years now, and still has a JOB!!!  That's the thing - too many of these people are infusing their opinions into the subject matter instead of reporting the FACTS.

    As to the Nation writer, you know, I'm just shakin gmy head abt how he may not have recognized some of the sexism, and how it was easy to brush it aside.  See, that pretty much says it all.  When people weren't jumping into the frat boy mentality, they encouraged it by commission, if nothing else.  IMHO, that is.

    [ Parent ]

    SOS....DD (5.00 / 6) (#216)
    by rise hillary rise on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:03 PM EST
    this was my response to Pollitt's piece (now posted as a "web letter"

    Katha, your publication stands to take some of the blame for this too. I hoped for so much better from The Nation, which never missed an opportunity to rigorously apply a double standard in this campaign. Clinton got a pounding from every single one of your columnists, no matter what she said, while Obama got only praise or the random whimpy disclaimer that his position, whilst not perfect, was somehow superior to hers.

    At no point did any of your writers seriously analyze Obama's glaring deficits, his ephemeral voting record, his questionable personal associations or his nebulous political background.

    At what point did anyone at The Nation cry foul when Obama mimed the "brush-off," referred to her and then scratched his face with a middle finger (I was there and saw the crowd's reaction--that was not unintentional); made comments like "periodically, she gets a little down" or talked about the "china flying"? Not even once. If (for example) Hillary had referred to Obama as "tap-dancing" around an issue, your publication would have laid into her à la Olbermann.

    None of you has clean hands here. Nice work. I won't be renewing my subscription.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm guessing they were sitting in a drawer (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:31:47 PM EST
    til obama declared himself king....

    [ Parent ]
    Something we can all do NOW! (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by WoMenBoycottMSNBCcom on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:19 PM EST
    Concrete, simple, straigtforward, targeted.
    Women Men Hillary Supporters Pro-democracy Voters Boycott MSNBC & NBC

    spread the word; share the code/banner available at the site.  Turn Free speech into concrete ACTION.

    [ Parent ]

    Double exacltly! What I've been saying for days -- (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:12:52 PM EST
    all of a sudden some in the MCM are noticing sexism! Of course, among Big Media MCM, it's just some folks "out there," has nothing to do with MCMers.

    Ha.

    Did anyone else here listen to WNYC's Brian Lehrer Show recap of Hillary's campaign this morning? First segment of program. Podcast available, but not sure when it comes up. It was amazing in its lack of any referencing MCM sexism and misogyny. Only Bill Moyers' Journal actually covered that--way back in January! He could do another full program on it now.

    [ Parent ]

    Just like CNN suddenly discovered (5.00 / 8) (#133)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:40:32 PM EST
    Alice Palmer and how Obama f'd her over ... AFTER Obama got the necessary superdelegate support to win the nomination.  A nice piece of butt-covering, CNN, but many of us see right through you.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, good question (5.00 / 6) (#198)
    by daria g on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:17:12 PM EST
    This stuff from Nation writers is from the same magazine that ran a cover story on how Hillary had betrayed feminism and used racist code to attack Obama.  And then went to cable news to talk about it.  And ran a piece by Tom Hayden talking about how much his peace-loving wife wanted to scream when Hillary was on TV.  They should look in the mirror.

    Hayden in The Nation:

    For Barbara, Hillary has become the screech on the blackboard. From First Lady to Lady Macbeth.

    Some progressives they are.

    [ Parent ]

    On further reflection, I'm wondering (5.00 / 3) (#208)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:24:46 PM EST
    why Barbara didn't speak for herself.

    [ Parent ]
    More hope than belief, I think (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:10:20 PM EST
    Gee, that's the cornerstone of this primary season, isn't it?

    More imagination than actualization (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:13:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I haven't found it all that creative though. (5.00 / 3) (#222)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:29:28 PM EST
    Hope and change are about as pedestrian as it comes in political rhetoric.

    Nothing very imaginative there imo.

    Now hope and change juxtaposed with the ad hominem attacks was kind of different - but not in a good way.

    [ Parent ]

    More lies than truth (none / 0) (#228)
    by Nadai on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:32:48 PM EST
     

    [ Parent ]
    Man, what a joke this all is. I'm starting (5.00 / 12) (#3)
    by tigercourse on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:12:34 PM EST
    to feel pretty exisential about this country's political world.

    Ditto! (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:30:13 PM EST
     I really need to rise above politics and just say:  it is what it is.  Your vote means nothing.  You can affect nothing.  Just devote yourself to making lots of money and hope you can still get out of this country.

    [ Parent ]
    It is what it is..... (4.00 / 1) (#37)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:41:41 PM EST
    You summed up my feelings well, except I'm devoted to making lots of fun and hapiness, and most of all living free....to hell with money, except as a means to have fun.

    I follow politics just to know what the bad guys are up to, so I can adjust according and continue to live as free as possible, albeit under the radar.

    [ Parent ]

    Sounds (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:45:43 PM EST
    like a good life philosophy!  And now we know they're all bad guys, so live, love and let the politicians share the stress.

    [ Parent ]
    No, we're not talking about it (5.00 / 19) (#4)
    by david mizner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    Not really, partly because Obama supporters believe that to talk about sexism is to invalidate his victory. Sure, we'll all tsk-tsk Chris Matthews and Tucker Carlson, but male progressives have been generally unwilling to call out other male progressives for their sexism. I'm still wondering why Josh Marshall is a progressive in good standing after suggesting that Hillary castrated Mark Penn.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/187620.php


    He stands ill wiht me (5.00 / 12) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    for many reasons. I no longer respect him.

    [ Parent ]
    There ought to be a list of how many castrations (5.00 / 8) (#96)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:58 PM EST
    Hillary performed. It was a favored metaphor for the Boyz in the MCM and ObamaBlogs.

    Tucker Carlson was fearful and would keep his legs crossed around her. I'd forgotten about Mark Penn. But I know there were others.

    [ Parent ]

    Progressive Left: ALWAYS sexist (5.00 / 6) (#150)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:51:33 PM EST
    How many here are old enough to recall Stokely Carmichael's famous statement about women?    When asked what position women should have in the Black Power movement, he replied: "prone".  

    And don't forget the wonderful musical anthems of the 60s:

    "American Woman" ("stay away from me...")
    "Under my Thumb"("a girl who once kept me down...")
    "Stairway to Heaven" ("SHE's buying a stairway..."  SHE? At 65 cents on the dollar, I don't think so).

    Progressive men have always been deeply conflicted about women.  Why?  Well firstly, they tend to be young and so still trying to break those apron strings.  Secondly, they want to believe they're fair and balanced, and so do not confront their misogyny directly but deny it and keep it buried ... thus allowing it to fester and come out in unconscious ways.  Thirdly, young women possibly encourage this by themselves being intimidated by their male counterparts.  I see my strong and assertive daughter unconsciously acting submissive around her tall deep-voiced boyfriend.  Fourthly, progressives (face it, folks) think it's ok to ignore or belittle conventional social forms such as ... say, courtesy.

    [ Parent ]

    A bit overgeneralized, (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by TomP on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:10:10 PM EST
    don't you think?


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah and two of the three (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:32:59 PM EST
    bands are English and the other is Canadian.

    Just sayin'

    [ Parent ]

    BTD -- You are really the only political wirter (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:22:01 PM EST
    That covered sexism during the primary season in any significant and regular way. It was obviously too little, but at least it wasn't too late-- like the rest of the media. Thank you.

    There were other (5.00 / 10) (#14)
    by david mizner on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:26:54 PM EST
    bloggers, like Melissa McEwan, who were all over it, but yes, BTD did a good job.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD and Melissa (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by karen for Clinton on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:43:59 PM EST
    Much thanks to both.

    Millions of angry posts all over the net by individuals after each latest occurence often brought more ridiculed responses and insults.

    Many of us wrote letters to the offenders and their corporations, to no avail.

    The "Shut the Freud Up" "mad as hell" video was so cathartic as it repeated it in all its uglyness and then gave the cathartic release.

    Funny how they denied it and permitted it, ain't it.  Howard Dean waited till his fix was in before he gave his scripted little "tsk-tsk" sexism disapproval on May 31st.  Pandering to the very voters they were risking by over and over making it clear they don't have to "just rely" on us anymore.  The old coalition was tossed under the bus.   Win without us.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Howard Dean... (none / 0) (#103)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:21:38 PM EST
    that reminds me...

    ..is his independent physician spousal unit still in Vermont tending to her patients while Howard works over the Dems in DC?

    Hey...there's a subject for the tabloids...how many nights did THEY spend together in the past year...and is she speaking to him?...is their marriage solid...or....?

    There's one woman whose views on all this might be interesting...some enterprising journalist out to pay the doctorlady a visit...

    [ Parent ]

    I read Dean "teleworks." (none / 0) (#231)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:33:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    others should've... (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by kredwyn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:55:03 PM EST
    but they were too busy denying its existence.

    [ Parent ]
    They were saying that the things that (5.00 / 6) (#241)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:44:36 PM EST
    were said were not sexist a lot of the time which was interesting given the fact anything that the Clinton camp said was proclaimed racist.  I still can't get over the fact that thanks to this Obama campaign, I can't talk about LBJ's role in passing the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act without worrying that someone is going to call me a racist.  I don't like it when people re-write and/or suppress historical facts.  It makes me very, very uncomfortable.

    But when people went around claiming that First Ladies were irrelevant and had no experience - nothing but housewives - which was pretty insulting too - few spoke up to point out how many First Ladies were in fact incredibly important political players in their own right.  All these people were willing to throw out great female historical figures and their accomplishments in order to destroy Senator Clinton.  Obama says that because of his win little boys and girls will now know that they can run for President.  I am afraid it is still just the boys club - maybe the skin color barrier will be broken - but the gender barrier seems more fortified now to me than it did at the start of this whole thing.

    Oh well, now they are onto incredibly sophisticated arguments against their next opponent like the color of his teeth and his age.  Did I say sophisticated? I really meant sophmoric.

    [ Parent ]

    He was really the only major writer, though (none / 0) (#23)
    by Exeter on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:33:46 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Given the Way (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by creeper on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:22:07 PM EST
    The Nation treated Hillary during the campaign it's disgusting to see them now defend her.

    I'm sorry you even highlighted this, BTD.  It's just a sop from a sexist pig.

    Hayes, the Nation, are NOT defending HRC (5.00 / 20) (#24)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:34:48 PM EST
    and let's not let them or their ilk get away with that claim.

    They are defending themselves.  And it's too late.

    [ Parent ]

    That's the (5.00 / 11) (#43)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:48:16 PM EST
    way I see it too Cream. Guess now that they all got what they wanted they feel they can toss a few crumbs to Hillary supporters. Let's all make sure we are properly grateful.

    [ Parent ]
    I think I'll just be saying "NO" (5.00 / 7) (#153)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:54:07 PM EST
    to battered-wife-syndrome.  

    Thankyouverymuch.

    [ Parent ]

    Yup--this is CYA time for the prog/libs (5.00 / 10) (#102)
    by jawbone on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:20:47 PM EST
    They kept their powder dry during the primary, but now The One is nominated, they can decry the inhumanity of the sexism and misogny!

    Noted and recorded.

    [ Parent ]

    They lost all credibility (5.00 / 7) (#126)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:37:45 PM EST
    when they took sides. They should have been supporting both candidates - and criticizing both candidates - equally.

    [ Parent ]
    Quietly they surveyed the wounded hunting ground (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:11:47 PM EST
    ... and wanked.

    Yup, it's still all about slathering the lotion on themselves, isn't it?

    [ Parent ]

    Just (5.00 / 12) (#13)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:24:26 PM EST
     returned from breakfast with an Obama friend.  When the name came up, I said I thought we should not talk about it.  Then he and another Obama person at the table immediately launched into an attack on Hillary and started saying they CERTAINLY hope Hillary will not be VP, and they don't want Bill Clinton anywhere near the WH breathing down Obama's neck.

    I continue to be astounded at the vitriol aimed at the Clintons by Democrats.  You'd think they were the spawn of the devil, the worst thing ever to come into the Democratic Party.  You don't dare speak up in their defense or then you are personally attacked--I was told by these people that I'm stupid (I have a PhD in American history) and racist because I support HIllary.  Really makes me start gravitating toward Obama, y'know.

    Yah, it just makes me think maybe I really am stupid and racist and I'm too stupid to know it.  You've gotta hand it to these people, they've got a great strategy for winning folks over to The One.  I could be wrong, because, after all, I am a stupid racist, but wasn't it Dubya who was such a sore winner and dismissed everyone who didn't support him as some expletive?

    What kind of friends (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by kenoshaMarge on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:50:29 PM EST
    do you have that would call you stupid and racist just because you don't agree with them about Obama? And why would you subject yourself to such abuse in the name of friendship? No snark here, I am just curious.

    [ Parent ]
    Unfortunately Marge..... (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by Maria Garcia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:29:38 PM EST
    ...a lot of us are finding that we have friends like this.

    [ Parent ]
    Or in my case (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by echinopsia on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:48:57 PM EST
    that these people are not real friends.

    I've had to end several online friendships over this primary, because people who call me an ignorant, uneducated racist are not and never can be my friends.

    I'll find new friends. <shrug>

    [ Parent ]

    Some are even (5.00 / 4) (#148)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:50:36 PM EST
    in our families.

    My stepmother, father and brother are all Obamans. I am the only one of my immediate family who is not a Hillary Hater.

    It's quite awkward, I must say.

    [ Parent ]

    Yep, it's 10 of them and one of me (5.00 / 5) (#167)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:01:05 PM EST
    just among my siblings and their spouses (although I suspect some spouses are laying low and will cast their blessedly secret ballots as they will in fall).  And the remaining sibling is a Bushie who will be for McCain.

    They all went on my email filter sometime ago, their messages sent fittingly to the "trash" file, for me to go find and hit back only when I'm in the mood.  Too many emails were catching me unawares for too long, as I tried to reason with once-thinking, sentient beings.  They stopped using reasoning months ago, very uncharacteristic in our family debates about politics.  And some started to get downright vicious in reply.  I have learned a lot from that.  Forearmed is forewarned, even -- especially? -- when placing trust in family members. Sad, but so it goes.

    [ Parent ]

    In answer (5.00 / 5) (#194)
    by tek on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:44 PM EST
    I no longer consider this person a friend and refused to talk to him for the duration of the meal.  I knew he supported Obama, but I did not expect the outburst at the mention of Obama's name.

    The other person is my step daughter, who used to be a Hillary Dem until she got accepted to a private college for fall.  She visited the college (uber liberal) and saw that the students were all for Obama.  She's been for him ever since.  She knows I support Hillary and I suspect she wanted to start some fireworks.  She got some fireworks she wasn't expecting when we parted from the "friend."

    [ Parent ]

    The only sane response... (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:54:29 PM EST
    "I'm sorry you are having a bad day. Since I haven't had a rabies shot, I think I'd better leave now. I hope you are feeling better soon. Good-bye."

    (It drives them right round the bend!)

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:58:12 PM EST
    and smile sweetly... they can't stand it!

    [ Parent ]
    jackyt....you are my kind of girl....love it!! (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Ooh - have you really done this? (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    I love it!  My hat is off to you.  What a superb response.

    [ Parent ]
    You hit the nail on the head -- complete contempt and disrespect from the Obama campaign, their supporters and the democrat party. I can see his lip curl in disdain when he mentions Senator Clinton. It's all a sham when they feign to respect and honor her. It's complete B.S.

    They don't want and completely believe they don't need Hillary supporters. That's Okay.

    That's absolutely fine by me. I won't vote for McCain, but I will be willing, ready, able to write in Hillary in November.

    Meanwhile join targeted Boycott of very specific MSNBC & NBC news/election coverage and piggy hosts, commentators. You know which ones. Start today. Let's get this thing rolling.

    http://www.WoMenBoycottMSNBC.com

    [ Parent ]

    I feel your pain :) (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by nashville on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:18:55 PM EST
    These people now attacking were the many of the same people who, pre-Obama, defended them ferociously.

    I'll say it again...just scary.

    [ Parent ]

    By what definition (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    are these people called your 'friends?'

    And why do you tolerate such rude behavior, enabling people to treat you so disrespectfully?

    I hope it is because you are young and have not yet learned to stand up for yourself, if not for others, in situations where bullyboys gang up on anyone...much less on 'a friend.'

    You have to draw the line somewhere...just how much crap will you take before you call a halt?

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know your "friends" (5.00 / 5) (#155)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:55:34 PM EST
    so I don't like to judge quickly but they sound like amazingly narrow minded jackasses.  But I don't like to judge.

    Please know that there are Obama supporters out there who still have an enormous amount of respect for Senator Clinton (and her husband) who are just as baffled and angry about hate-filled pinheads like your friends.

    OK, I do like to judge.

    [ Parent ]

    If Obama is elected President, (5.00 / 1) (#236)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    I may become a hermit, as so many of my close friends disparage Hillary Clinton as much as possible, including after Obama "won" the nomination Tuesday night.  They are quite insufferable and impossible to shut up.

    [ Parent ]
    Tek...if obama were to become president, (4.42 / 7) (#45)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:48:52 PM EST
    I am sure he would be calling Bill on his red phone asking....whatever shall I do, Bill, whatever shall I do?  :)  He is no more prepared for being president than I am.

    [ Parent ]
    I actually think you're more prepared. (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by MMW on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:03:08 PM EST
    You have HRC's ideas. More respect for those different from yourself. You'd have to bring in people to help you navigate as he would, but I think you may be able to bring in better people, more like-minded, and you got more cojones to stand and fight.

    True, the last few days has damaged your calm (thanks Serenity), but I understand.

    Yah, I'd vote for you.

    [ Parent ]

    MMW....thank you so much. That is just about (5.00 / 5) (#94)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:15:08 PM EST
    the nicest compliment I have ever been paid.  And you are correct about the damaged calm, but it chafes my butt that these trolls have swooped in here like vultures since their boy declared himself king of the hill.  We are not done here; and I cannot wait to see what happens next.  Thanks again MMW.

    [ Parent ]
    I think you have to remember that many, many (none / 0) (#215)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:27:00 PM EST
    Democrats were completely irate over Bill embarrassing our country with adolescent antics in the Oval Office, but did not express that anger at the time because it was pretty much over for him.  However, the right wing has consistently used the false pretense of their moral superiority ever since then

    I know people on this list are very enamored of the Clintons, but the many, many rank and file Democrats still despise Bill and blame him for ushering in Republicans who have done immense damage to our country.  None of this would have ever come up again if not for the thought of Bill Clinton being in the White House again.  Hillary's not conceding and the calls to take it to the convention are what makes Obama supporters continue to attack the Clintons.  

    If Hillary somehow negotiates party support for something as powerful as Senate Majority Leader, most of her supporters will vote for the ticket that will put her there because it gives her a framework from which to push for our issues.  It also gives her a good place to run for Prez in four years if Obama fails to achieve progressive results.


    [ Parent ]

    I was pretty disgusted with Bill Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#239)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:40:07 PM EST
    but I didn't vote for Bill Clinton.

    I voted for Hillary Clinton, who is her own person.

    [ Parent ]

    That is a very sexist argument. (5.00 / 3) (#240)
    by tree on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:40:16 PM EST
    Bill Clinton is not running for President. Why all this rationalization of sexism against Hillary as  Bill hatres? Hillary is a strong woman and SHE was the one running for President, not Bill. Its sad that you think that judging a woman by the man she married, or assuming that he would be the power instead of she, is not just another classic example of sexism.

     And BTW, Bill Clinton was extremely popular with the public when the impeachment idiocy was going on, and Democrats actually gained in 1998, despite historical trends that the party in Presidential power  usually loses in mid term elections.  

    [ Parent ]

    It was always there (5.00 / 10) (#16)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:29:13 PM EST
    Even among my Obama supporting female friends. One commented about how "tacky" Hilary dressed at one of the debates! Nothing about substance, just about her tacky pants suit. When I called her on it she replied that even Pelosi knows how to dress. Since they couldn't nail her on substance, it became about clothes. I can't imagine the same conversation about Obama or Edwards.

    I liked her clothes! (5.00 / 10) (#27)
    by bjorn on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:30 PM EST
    But I am a "big dyke" so what do I know.  If she had not worn pantsuits they would have been talking about her calves nonstop or some other body part. If you want to see sexism in action just look at Fox news anchors, the women have to be young and blonde and the men are for the most part extremely unattractive and old. The MSNBC women anchors are all 12 years old too.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed (5.00 / 9) (#42)
    by mmc9431 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:47:37 PM EST
    When I jumped on her about I also included that if Hilary had dressed like Pelosi does she would have been labeled vain and self absorbed. It always was a no win situation with his people and that won't change until they find out what they really bought.

    [ Parent ]
    I even saw reports that Hillary and Nancy (1.00 / 1) (#149)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:50:49 PM EST
    have had facelifts.

    [ Parent ]
    I liked her clothes too! (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by Emma on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:52:26 PM EST
    And I'M a big dyke, too!  She must have been sending out subliminal messages that she's a lesbian.  You KNOW Hillary never does anything without a motive!

    [ Parent ]
    Ha! Yes, even the choice of (5.00 / 10) (#66)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:00:46 PM EST
    pantsuit and jewelry is calculated down to the last potential voter.  

    Turquiose = bitter rural men
    Pearls = typical white woman

    [ Parent ]

    Okay, can I admit that, much as (5.00 / 5) (#182)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:10:41 PM EST
    I deplore the attention to what women in politics wear (read Gerry Ferraro's autobiography!) . . . I picked up some tips on how to wear scarves from Clinton?  And I haven't worn blue for years, but I found myself drawn to it, and especially turquoise, in clothing purchases this year.  And I sure noticed that Clinton's haircut now is Gerry's haircut -- so suitable for both and so much more suited to the campaign trail than a certain candidate's spouse's deliberate Jackie wannabe cut.

    And somehow, I found that I only wore trousers to work since January.  I am freed from pantyhose, as I am from so much else thanks to Clinton.  I actually made the comparison of pantyhose and the Democratic Party in a recent comment, determined as I am to stop struggling to fit into either, ever again. :-)  

    [ Parent ]

    LOL! (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:55 PM EST
    Cream City and ruffian - you are hilarious.

    Thanks so much for the laughs today!

    [ Parent ]

    And how Gerry and Mondale had (5.00 / 0) (#213)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:26:26 PM EST
    to act when together waving at the crowd. No arms on each others back. Very formal. So many people I speak with about all this just don't get it.

    [ Parent ]
    I liked them too (5.00 / 6) (#60)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:58:26 PM EST
    and I'm sure they are not cheap and tacky. Hillary's wardrobe was a no-win situation for her - I'm glad she picked what was comfortable to wear day after day on and off planes, trains and automobiles, sitting on awkward debate and townhall stools, etc.  

    Nancy Pelosi's clothes are beautiful, but she has never done near that level of campaigning.


    [ Parent ]

    Ewwwwww Gawd! (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:17:23 PM EST
    I can't stand to watch it, and the girls let the boys lead the discussions while they spend their minds and energies adding attractive accessories to the boy's ideas.  It's precious.  It's all so 50's 'Leaving It To Beaver' (wow, that puts a whole new spin on that title)  Pauuuuuuuke!

    [ Parent ]
    Bjorn, well as long as we're on the topic... (5.00 / 4) (#174)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:04:36 PM EST
    I'm a "big dyke" too! I thought Hillary's wardrobe and her overall styling was sheer genius, in that it looked effortless and then some.

    She always looked really pulled together, radiant and 'un-gendered', but yet not androgynous. Somehow the wardrobe deflected attention away from itself and put the focus back onto her. Ergo, her clothing didn't become an ongoing focal point of ridicule. In that one sense,  she had a level playing field not usually afforded a woman in public life. I kept saying her stylist deserves a massive raise.

    And the hair, genius too. Not too long, not too short, not too blond, not too coifed. A frame that didn't call attention to itself and, again, reflected all of the light back onto her.

    Through it all, what we saw was Hillary and she was/is a wonder to behold.

    [ Parent ]

    her clothes, for what it's worth (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by noholib on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:14:36 PM EST
    I thought Senator Clinton looked beautiful the last several months.  I thought the combination of pantsuits with jewelry and pumps sent a great message: practical and feminine.  I thought what a great way for women and especially young girls to see a woman look, that is, like a sensible and appealing person, not like a sex object.  Re: emulation, I figured I could wear pantsuits and necklaces too.  But the shoes, well no.  Actually the shoes were not practical, but they did dress up her outfits.  

    [ Parent ]
    noholib, tip for you below... (5.00 / 1) (#232)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:33:56 PM EST
    Comfortable, stylin' shoes, including pumps, look at shoes by "Taryn Rose"; an orthopedic surgeon turned shoe designer.

    This is not OT, since it's about dressing women for public life, in a way that pre-empts sexist ridicule and commentary about her wardrobe.

    [ Parent ]

    Margaret Thatcher had to deal with that cr*p too. (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by blcc on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:59:33 PM EST
    And nothing has changed.

    And yet some people have been so completely blind to the misogyny.

    It's mindboggling.

    [ Parent ]

    Heck, I have a female friend who is (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:03:40 PM EST
    a University professor (thus well educated), and her reason for not supporting Hillary was that Hillary stayed with Bill after he cheated on her with Monica.  Wow, I mean ... that's wrong in so many ways, where does one start?  I suspect this friend is so badly bitten by white liberal guilt that she just needed something, anything, to justify not voting for Hillary and picked something really stupid.  

    [ Parent ]
    at least defensible, no? (none / 0) (#190)
    by Artoo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:13:10 PM EST
    a University professor (thus well educated), and her reason for not supporting Hillary was that Hillary stayed with Bill after he cheated on her with Monica.  Wow, I mean ... that's wrong in so many ways, where does one start?  I suspect this friend is so badly bitten by white liberal guilt that she just needed something, anything, to justify not voting for Hillary and picked something really stupid.

    Maybe this is my teenage dittohead coming out, but isn't it pretty widely accepted that Monica wasn't exactly a one-time thing? And that there are many other "other women" in the former president's past?

    Working from that understanding, isn't it understandable that some feminists would see Hillary as an enabler (however fair or unfair that view might be)?

    [ Parent ]

    Is that a reason not to vote for her? (5.00 / 4) (#196)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:16:16 PM EST
    No, it's not.

    [ Parent ]
    Hillary stayed with her husband, the (5.00 / 3) (#220)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:28:48 PM EST
    the fact that Obama had very questionable friends and associations were okay and not to question? I wonder what her choice would have been had she been the one in the white house.

    [ Parent ]
    P.S. What circumstances had this (none / 0) (#225)
    by zfran on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:30:51 PM EST
    friend been through where the entire world was watching where she had to act with class and dignity.

    [ Parent ]
    Whatever (5.00 / 2) (#223)
    by Mari on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:29:49 PM EST
    Who cares! I've never been interested in Bill Clinton's sex life. It's so pathetic how judgemental society is about a woman's marriage. He clearly loves her and supports her and it works for them.

    [ Parent ]
    Feminist view of philandery-enabling (5.00 / 4) (#235)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:35:40 PM EST
    Yes, you're right and some feminists do hold that view.  But it's mind blowing that an educated person would:  

    a) use this as sufficient reason not to vote for Clinton (thereby letting it trump everything else that Clinton has accomplished, her brilliant mind, generous heart, and great ideas).

    b) not realize that millions of women, and men, in this world have forgiven unfaithful spouses because they love them and share with them something deep that transcends sexual misbehavior.

    c) ignore the fact that she is BLAMING THE VICTIM.

    [ Parent ]

    uhm... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:09:16 PM EST
    the comments on her clothes were vapid and shallow, but let's be honest, it's not sexism.  Its just the same absurd type of "journalism"  that gave us endless stories about John Edwards hair, or Al Gore's brown suit, or Wes Clark's sweaters...

    There's plenty of legitimate sexism out there in and out of the MSM but Campaign Fashion" is just typical infuriating media noise.

    [ Parent ]

    for my part... (5.00 / 0) (#197)
    by Artoo on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:16:40 PM EST
    the comments on her clothes were vapid and shallow, but let's be honest, it's not sexism.

    I first recognized in myself that I wasn't being fair with Hillary when I saw her in a bright red suit (at the State of the Union address I think) and said "What's she wearing that for?" And I immediately thought to myself: I would never say anything like that about what a man was wearing and that's totally indefensible.

    It's similar to the way that it's hard to be racist talking about the way a Caucasian dresses. On the other hand, it's all to easy to be racist in talking about the way an African-American dresses.

    [ Parent ]

    Wonder what he thinks about the ERA (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Redshoes on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:30:50 PM EST
    One question I keep wondering is how an Obama administration will enhance the equality of women -- since 14th Amendment jurisprudence enshrines that issues affecting the sexes deserve less scrutiny than those affecting the races.  Given that Obama's actions and daily life reflect the prerogatives of a traditional male (i.e., his career and ambition take precedence at the expense of his family -- hence his wife's initial anger and frustration that evolved to acceptance) I have genuine doubts that he "gets it."  But one can hope he does.

    I am not a "single-issue" voter... (5.00 / 3) (#178)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:08:51 PM EST
    but I am thinking about how to respond to the misogyny I've seen during this campaign.

    One possible way to go is to make intent to push for passage of the ERA my top criterion for supporting any candidate. This primary has really opened my eyes to how much work still needs to be done to address American sexism, and I'd like to do something concrete to try and move that agenda forward.

    [ Parent ]

    I've Always wondered (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Y Knot on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:23:30 PM EST
    why the ERA never came back. Its always seemed like surely by NOW people would vote for it. I'd support it whole-heartedly.

    [ Parent ]
    Great idea (none / 0) (#183)
    by otherlisa on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:11:37 PM EST
    And for those who are more institutionally savvy than I am, what women's advocacy organizations would you recommend?

    [ Parent ]
    I have always liked (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by madamab on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:18:06 PM EST
    Planned Parenthood, myself.

    But I need to do a lot more research!

    [ Parent ]

    Me too (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:25 PM EST
    They have great programs and do lots of good stuff.  They seem to be governed by much wiser heads than NARAL, for instance.

    Emily's List, also, although I'm sort of rethinking my support for them after someone mentioned some of the folks they support.  They support female, pro-choice candidates, but not all of them supported Clinton.  Not that they have to, but it means checking out why they didn't.

    And I give to local groups who work on homelessness, and a few other causes.

    [ Parent ]

    I like Planned Parenthood, (5.00 / 2) (#211)
    by eleanora on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:25:44 PM EST
    NOW, and Emily's List. They'll be lining up with the Obama crowd after Saturday, but they do excellent work on women's issues and should take a path in the GE that will be palatable to Clinton Dems. I hope that they will, anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    One positive example (none / 0) (#106)
    by CST on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    He co-signed the fair-pay act (the one McCain opposed).  This was the bill that was supposed to remedy the supreme court ruling on Goodyear vs. Ledbetter.  It didn't pass though.

    Speaking of people who "don't get it", this is what McCain had to say on the issue:

    "They need the education and training, particularly since more and more women are heads of their households, as much or more than anybody else,"

    This is a good article on this issue.

    [ Parent ]

    ample occasion for introspection (5.00 / 7) (#21)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:32:58 PM EST
    Yes, they have sure had ample occassion.  However, I see no evicence they actually did any introspection.

    That's just rich.

    sadly we will only have a lesson with a loss (5.00 / 10) (#22)
    by DandyTIger on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:33:03 PM EST
    is my opinion. The only way for progressives to really see what happened and to learn from the vitriol and bigotry perpetrated against women by progressives is if progressives that are not so bigoted to cause a change in the Democratic party, starting with not electing Obama. I know that is now chatter at this site, but it's what I think. Otherwise if there is a win, there will be no reason to not be bigoted towards women in the future in this party.

    I agree with you (5.00 / 6) (#36)
    by dk on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:40:30 PM EST
    and I hope that is not chatter.  It is a reasonable point of view.  And for people who disagree with it (i.e. disagree with sitting out this election), I would expect specific examples of how the Democratic party will atone for the sexism in their own ranks.  And no, a speech (or even a million speeches) will not cut it.  He will be forever tainted with the malign acceptance of sexism.  There's simply nothing he can do to make up for that.

    [ Parent ]
    Well... (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by oldpro on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:38:58 PM EST
    (...tongue planted firmly in cheek...)

    ...there is ONE thing he could do...he could nominate Hillary at the convention and ask his delegates to vote for her...

    [ Parent ]

    It depends what you mean by talking about it (5.00 / 11) (#25)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:08 PM EST
    I've read a number of comments about how sexism didn't effect Clinton's candidacty,  she used sexism to get votes,  she actually deserved all of the sexist attacks because she is Hillary Clinton (a cackling, bitter, "rhymes with witch"), feminism is dead, only old bitter feminists care about sexism, and Obama's is wonderful for feminism and his campaign never made any sexist references.

    Technically, this is "talking about it", although I'm not at all sure this is the kind of talk that we need.

    By the way... (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by dianem on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:35:58 PM EST
    the comments were not, by and large, here. Most of them were at Salon, but there were some on Yahoo News and a couple of other blogs which I generally linked to from here.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh. I love how suddenly the progressive blogs (5.00 / 16) (#30)
    by rooge04 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:38:01 PM EST
    and journalists that joined in the Hillary-bashing based only on her sex are suddenly seeing the light as to how she was treated.

    Call me jaded. Call me a conspiracy-theorist. But I see absolutely no use for these people suddenly finding sexism hurled at Hillary. Where were they?

    Where were they when we railed about it here? On their blogs? Everywhere?! They were busy joining in is where they were.

    Cancelled T/Nation or I'd have seen that firsthand (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:39:50 PM EST
    Dumped it and a bunch of other deadbeat fauxgressive media.

    What I am seeing now is a lot of denial (5.00 / 15) (#34)
    by esmense on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:39:52 PM EST
    that misogyny came from the Obama campaign directly, which makes it somehow okay or not important enough to be discussed.

    But of course, if sometimes did. In very calculated ways. One of the most obvious examples being Jesse Jackson Jr's (an official spokesman of the campaign) outrageous statement after the NH primary that Hillary Clinton "did not cry for Katrina."

    This was a tactical, consultant shaped appeal to both misogyny and racial resentment. A masterly bit of politics -- playing on gender prejudice and race baiting all in one breath.

    Those who don't see what was at play in that statement from the campaign, and others like it, most likely don't do so because they share the prejudices and resentments that were so masterfully and intentionally being appealed to. Or, they are closing their eyes and ears to reality because it would diminish their notions of their candidate's purity and transcendence of politics.

    But, whether Obama is personally a misogynist or not, is beside the point; there is no denying that his campaign played to those who are -- and willingly benefitted, without protest or condemnation, from the sexism displayed by his supporters in the media and online.

    Is that a reason to vote for McCain? No. Nor is it necessarily a reason to vote against Obama -- although I am personally morally repulsed by his campaign's tactical exploitation of both gender and racial (and to a lesser extent class, as well as generational) insecurities, prejudices, divisions, resentments and fears. As repulsed as I have long been by the Republican party's use of such tactics.

    I simply cannot excuse in Democrats what I have for decades denounced in the other party.

    But there is a bigger reason why all of this is important; the revelation of the depth and breadth of misogyny in the Democratic party, and the willingness of a major contender for party leadership to exploit it, goes a long way in explaining the lack of progress, and on some issues, back sliding, women have seen on issues of vital importance to them -- issues of both political and economic equality -- over the last 30 years.

    In other words, misogyny in both parties has had and continues to have consequences, real political and economic consequences, for women and the often especially vulnerable others (the young, the elderly) who depend on their support and care. Consequences that many of us believe the nation simply can no longer afford to let stand.

    Given that, the important question for people like me isn't party "unity." It has now become something much larger; how do we get these vital issues addressed outside of, regardless of, in spite of, the obstacles to doing so that BOTH parties represent.

    Obama has promised to address these issues of course. But so has every other Democrat who has run at any level over the last 30 years. Yet, they haven't done so.

    What this campaign has revealed is how empty that rhetoric is and has always been. The Obama campaign, unfortunately, because it was the first to be seriously challenged by a woman, provided an opportunity that earlier campaigns did not -- the opportunity to see the vast chasm between the party's rhetoric and its actual view of and concern for women and their issues.

    And that is the real problem women, the party, and Obama now face.


    Right - nothing sexist about that (5.00 / 7) (#72)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:03:03 PM EST
    brushing the b---h off gesture at all.

    [ Parent ]
    The REAL Family Values Candidate (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by jackyt on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 01:36:23 PM EST
    With all the political exploitation of "Family Values" over the last 20 years, it's incredible to see just how bi-partisan the repudiation is of a candidate who espouses policies that really do effect the ability of families (of every description) to thrive in our culture.

    Misogyny, like racism, is a weapon used to maintain power and diminish anyone who threatens to level the playing field. Hillary Clinton, like Bill before her, really does champion change. That, more than her gender, is her sin in the eyes of those jealously guarding entrenched power. And her attackers really will "do anything to win"!

    [ Parent ]

    Nicely put ... Let me just add ... (5.00 / 2) (#204)
    by BlueMerlin on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 02:21:55 PM EST
    I think Obama is a misogynist.  A couple of weeks after the Rev. Wright tapes first broke, Greta van Susteren did a brief segment on Black Liberation Theology and featured a BLT convention in Florida where the topic of Rev. Wright was being addressed directly.  While framed in an exculpatory light, the actual content shown in the video highlights was revealing.  

    In it, a preacher is comparing Wright's comments about the USA to the comments a loving husband might make to a wife before going out for the evening.  "If her hair is messed up, you'll tell her, right?  You don't want her going out with her hair messed up do you?  You know, sticking out this way and that" (big laughter from audience).  "That looks bad for her and it looks bad for you, so of course it's your duty to tell your wife when her hair looks bad.  Now that's all Rev. Wright was doing."  

    As you might expect from seeing Rev. Wright's antics in front of large crowds, it was all received with delirious approval by the assembled listeners, and it seemed that each new hoot and laugh from the listeners just encouraged the speaker to add new and more ridiculous embellishments.

    Afterwards I tried to find it posted on Fox web site, but it never was ... and BTW was never shown again.  

    [ Parent ]

    I can hear them now (5.00 / 22) (#35)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Jun 06, 2008 at 12:40:14 PM EST
    They wanted to talk about the sexism, th