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Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

Are you feeling the Unity yet? Here's my suggestion - consider which of the remaining candidates best represents your views. Don't let the vitriol and hatred from the supporters or the blogs decide who YOU want to vote for. To me, if you are a Democrat, believe in ending the war in Iraq, in providing fairness to our tax system, in improving our health care system, in providing a fairer society, then the choice is clear - Barack Obama is clearly superior to John McCain. [More...]

Obama is not some of his supporters and some of the blogs that supported him and attacked Hillary Clinton in unfair and unprogressive ways. Judge Obama on Obama, not on his supporters and the blogs and bloggers you may now not like.

Stay true to your own views - whether that means defending Hillary Clinton from unfair smears that you hear from Obama supporters and Obama supporting bloggers and whether that means voting for the candidate who best represent your views. You can do both.

Speaking for me only.

This is an Open Thread.

Comments closed

< Civilian Oversight and Police Accountability | Anyone Watching Obama's Speech? >
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  • Display: Sort:
    I'm writing in Hillary. (5.00 / 9) (#2)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:43:42 PM EST
    Won't matter here in MA and she's the candidate who alligns with my values.

    He did nothing to stop the lies (5.00 / 9) (#44)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:59:13 PM EST
    In fact his supporters encouraged them

    [ Parent ]
    I have judged obama for obama and that (5.00 / 13) (#60)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:02:32 PM EST
    is why I would not consider voting for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Should Hillary (3.00 / 4) (#73)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:05:23 PM EST
    Said something about people saying that they would never vote for a n*gger? Or should Hillary have defended Obama over some of her supporter's claims that he is an empty suit, republican lite, copycat, or a Bush clone?

    No. It is beneath both candidates to stoop down and acknowledge stupid hateful and idiotic statements made by a very small number of extremists.

    [ Parent ]

    she didn't encourage it (5.00 / 11) (#94)
    by sarahfdavis on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:13:25 PM EST
    Obama did.
    Obama's words and actions-
    "She divisive" - a republican talking point based on nothing but her gender. a strong woman is a b*tch.
    "she's the most secretive politician in the history of american politics" - more republican talking points
    "They bamboozle yah and hoodwink ya"
    NOTHING. ZERO. NADA ABOUT THE HORRIBLE STUFF SAID ABOUT HILLARY IN OBAMA'S CHURCH.
    Playing "i got 99 problems and a b*tch ain't one of 'em" at his speech after penn. then lifting gestures RIGHT OUT OF THE VIDEO that refer to dusting the b*tch and sh*t off your shoes just as he said hillary's name.
    Pushing the RFK assasination garbage.
    The "let's dig up anything that could possibly be perceived as racist and push it to the media" right before the SC primary.
    There's more. Lots more.
    And i havent' even gotten to his supporters yet and the media yet. So please, don't play this game.

    [ Parent ]
    My Game? (2.57 / 7) (#125)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    Do you think politics is all about complimenting your opponents?

    It is a contact sport. Hillary knows it Obama knows it McCain knows it. Why are you so in the dark?  Your rescue job is not needed by Hillary, she is tough and does not take the BS personally. You are the one that seems frail.

    [ Parent ]

    Let's use Donna Brazile's logic (5.00 / 3) (#182)
    by mg7505 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:43 PM EST
    that you shouldn't reward breaking the rules, regardless of the consequences. So I don't want to reward Obama campaign for what (I view) is their breaking of the rules in many forms. Even if the consequence is President McCain.

    Of course that's extremely childish, but that's the way the Party has decided to function.

    • If I vote for Obama, I reward his campaign style and validate his supporters like Donna Brazile.
    • If I just don't vote (I would never vote for McCain...), then I still validate Brazile et al's logic.


    [ Parent ]
    Are you kidding me? (5.00 / 6) (#200)
    by kimsaw on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:50:11 PM EST
    Obama talks about CHANGING the politics of Washington and then leads his supporters into the same swill he supposed to be against in order to win at all costs. And you think you have a right to belittle a Clinton supporter because their choice is not Obama.  

    He has failed to built the TRUST required. Clinton   is trusted by her supporters to do what's in the best interest of her constituents and our nation. I don't always agree with Clinton, but I believe she is committed to this country.  Obama has not built anything but a undefined movement leading to an Obama World and its more fantasy than reality. Tell me- what will he fight for besides the presidency?  What will he surrender for power?  One word- everything, even his grandmother.

    No one is rescuing Hillary, we SUPPORT her. You apparently have to rescue the party and Obama, you're job is soooo much bigger. Good luck with that.

    [ Parent ]

    Belittling? (3.66 / 3) (#218)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:06:30 PM EST
    I am not belittling anyone. If you think that Obama's campaign rhetoric about change means anything other that Pol talk, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Anyone who takes as gospel what a Politician promises, be it Hillary, Obama, or McCain needs a cold shower. The only way predict how a Pol will act in the future is to look at their voting record, bills they wrote or co-sponsored and policy positions. Obama and Hillary are nearly identical on all issues, and as far as I  am concerned both of them are bad on the war and crime. Both are more to the right than I am happy about.

    Gooey deification of any pol seems absurd to me.

    Change, or whatever they tell you they are going to do for you is baloney.

    [ Parent ]

    Squeaky, it's the party that should have (5.00 / 13) (#99)
    by Teresa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:15:03 PM EST
    defended her. They defended him. I think people don't get it that we are angry at the party.

    [ Parent ]
    Teresa....don't bother with squeaky....he/she (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:35:37 PM EST
    is all about the obama....always has been while trying valiantly to pretend to be for Hillary.
    FYI...she/he doesn't want to get anything you have to say, even though you are absolutely correct.


    [ Parent ]
    Wrong.... (5.00 / 3) (#212)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:00:28 PM EST
    squeaky is not an Obama troll....

    [ Parent ]
    You Are FOS (2.00 / 4) (#185)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:41:05 PM EST
    I voted for Hillary, met her in person and was wowed by her. Just because I am not in the kool aid tank like you, doesn't make me drunk on Obama. She is a politician just like Obama and not worthy of deification. You and your fannclubbers are quite repulsive to me, at least as repulsive as the Obama trolls that used to come here.

    [ Parent ]
    Some Did Support Her (3.66 / 3) (#164)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:35:39 PM EST
    But the party is made up of individuals, some were for her and some were for Obama. This was an intra party race, not one against the GOP. As BTD pointed out over and over, some party leaders (Pelosi Brazille etc) should have kept their mouths shut and led by being neutral as they represent all Democrats, not just Obama. The press was horrible to her, but that was entirely predictable.

    Guaranteed the party would have supported Hillary had she won. I blame Penn for f'ing up her campaign. Had she dumped him much earlier I think she would have won it. This was a very close race and there is only one winner. Given the uphill battle Hillary faced she outperformed Obama imo.

    I only hope that we wind up with a Obama/Clinton ticket. At this point I can think of nothing better to win in November.

    [ Parent ]

    I know that the ones supporting her defended (5.00 / 4) (#183)
    by Teresa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:51 PM EST
    her when they occasionally got a seat at the media table, but where was the party? What neutral party official stood up to Tweety or Olbermann or anyone else?

    [ Parent ]
    They Are Vile (3.00 / 2) (#199)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:49:40 PM EST
    The best thing I did 20 years ago was to toss my TeeVee. I highly  recommend doing the same.

    Not sure that any Pol wants to condemn the MSM as that is their main access point into voters minds. Hillary to her credit has snubbed them and given them what they deserved. Unfortunately that did not help her.

    [ Parent ]

    some people think she did win (5.00 / 4) (#186)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:41:20 PM EST
    If the party you speak so fondly of, hadn't excluded two states

    [ Parent ]
    Speak Fondly Of? (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:52:18 PM EST
    Not me. Yes, I think that the Democratic party is much better than the GOP, but they are not anyone I would speak fondly of, not these days.

    [ Parent ]
    Had they been doing it (5.00 / 13) (#112)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:18:36 PM EST
    as virulently, publicly, consistently and joyfully as the MSM and bloggerworld was, and with as much reach, then yes.  But they weren't.

    I remember reading several articles about a year and half ago about how Obama's campaign was soooo much hipper than Clintons because he'd set up all his web friends, he'd sweep younger people.  We saw repeatedly that some of the big sites were extremely well tied into the Obama campaign, message-wise. (hell, there have got to be 100s of TPM comments here a day).

    So no, it wasn't a small number of extremists.  This wasn't Obama honorably ignoring the right wing nuts to stay about the fray.  He was the fray.  He was in the fray.  He encouraged the fray with every boo at hearing Hillary's name and he lost any credible claim to honor with his smarmy 'likeable enough' comment and the dirt-off-his-shoe manuever.

    The fish rots from the head down.  His supporters are part of his Movement with a capital M, they are integral part of his support, and if that is something he does not want to be associated with, then he should have at least spoken out against it.  Instead, he chose to leverage it to his advantage.

    So yes, it is perfectly legitimate to judge him based on his failure to act.

    But then, maybe I'm being too hard on him.  After all, he never claimed to be the post-gender candidate, only the post-racial one.

    [ Parent ]

    HEY! (5.00 / 16) (#114)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:18:58 PM EST
    Nobody HERE, or with an sentient brain, called Obama that word.  (And please don't use it, even if you take a letter out.)  But virtually every blog has insulted Hilary due to her gender, either wittingly or unwittingly.

    That said, I live in America, and I know it's history, and only a deluded fool would think that Barack will not lose votes due to his skin color.  Clinton would have lost votes due to her gender.  McCain will lose votes due to his age.  There is a difference with soberly acknowledging racism, sexism, and ageism, and participating in it.  One can judge the effects of something without being tainted by it.

    And let me clue you in, White Liberal Guilt only works on White Liberals.  If you all try this tact in the Fall, the Ind. and the Reps. will laugh at you.  And, as a bonus, you will actually alienate a lot of voters who are sick of being told that they are toothless bigots.  It's a bad, bad strategy, that makes his supporters feel good, but is counter productive.

    Just MHO.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with Jackson... (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by JustJennifer on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:27:10 PM EST
    you nailed it perfectly.

    And OT my son's name is Jackson - you are the first Jackson I have encountered other than him.  :)

    [ Parent ]

    Cool... (5.00 / 0) (#161)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:35:14 PM EST
    Thanks for the backup, that's always nice.

    Some people assume I take it from Jackson Pollack, but I actually take it from Jack London, but I'm not crazy about the name Jack alone.  Hunter is for Hunter S. Thompson, and ironically, my nephew Hunter (I suggested the name) is sitting over about 15 feet away watching tv.

    It's a crazy world.  Take care of my namesake okay.  LMAO

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Good on you Jackson! (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by 1jane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:07:22 PM EST
    Republicans are not the least bit concerned by the "isms" tossed around this blog and other blogs. It is terrible strategy to continue those lines of illogical reasoning.

    Clinton's campaign was mismanaged, pure and simple. I beleive she would have won if she'd made different decisions regarding Mark Penn too.

    The Obama campaign worked because they used the free grassroots organizers to lay the groundwork for the paid field reps when they came to town all they had to do was fire up the local supporters. In my county the local Obama supporters met and held events since March 2007. The Clinton campaign rolled in two weeks before the primary vote and began from scratch. The Clinton field rep was from an eastern state and couldn't pronounce my states name correctly. When she spoke to a large group of Dems where each field rep was given egual time to give their candidate's pitch.. the east coaster referred to Hillary Clinton as, "our girl" several times.

    Having closely observed both campaign offices it was clear that the daily canvassing and four shifts on Sat and Sunday worked as opposed to phone banking. It was clear that new catchy ideas were welcome in one campaign and the other had to check up the line before they could hold an ice cream social. Field reps in one campaign were selected for their expertise in water rights and placed in rural counties and the other campaign had a boatload of folks who'd never been west of the Mississippi.

     

    [ Parent ]

    Why would she....didn't you hear? She and (1.00 / 0) (#170)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:36:57 PM EST
    Bill are racists...snarky, snark, snark, snark

    [ Parent ]
    I judge a candidate's own record, words, deeds (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:38:50 PM EST
    ... as do most people with more than two brain cells to spark together.

    Pro masters of on-camera outrage will bloviate an obscure link between people into an extremist position as political SOP but that's just sucking media time. I don't think people give a d@mn unless something sticks.

    Wright will stick and will be the gift that keeps on giving, despite Club Obama's premature congratulation that their guy dodged a bullet.

    Why? People that aren't even thinking about it will be offended first by the presumption that all white people are racist. That part hasn't even begun to be played up yet.

    When that cools down, the ridin' her dirty pantomine will kick in. Uh, this is what's coming out of the pulpit? Where my wife sleeps? Where my children play with their little toys? [/Godfather II]

    The more you see of Wright, the more offensive his stuff gets. And he's not an obscure acquaintance but a 20-yr mentor.

    Sorry, squeaky, this connection ALONE can lose Obama the election

    [ Parent ]

    Glad I'm not in a swing state (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Dave B on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    So I can write in Hillary.

    I don't think my vote will decide South Dakota.

    [ Parent ]

    HA! I can write in Hillary because my vote (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:25:57 PM EST
    isn't going to decide Alabama.  That's for damn sure ;)

    [ Parent ]
    You are in South Dakota? (5.00 / 5) (#147)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:28:43 PM EST
    No, I don't think SD will swing, but I love your state.  Beacon of hope in a sea of Obama caucus states.  Great finish to the primary season.  Great for the women of SD. I heard 3 of 4 pro-choice SD women won their primaries.  I like to think Hill helped make that happen.  Great send off anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    So am I massib! (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:36:35 PM EST
    This "presumptive nominee" has never been short on arrogance, and I have exercised a high tolerance to all of those detestable qualities that he has shown throughout this campaign. BUT, this one REALLY DID IT FOR ME. HE REFERRED TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS : "
    PARTY WILL NOT...."

    MY PARTY? IT'S OUR PARTY, PAL. THIS WILL REALLY GET YOU OUR VOTES, WHETHER WE ARE HILLARY SUPPORTERS OR NOT!

    HE DOESN'T WANT UNITY. HE CAN DO WITHOUT US, THE CLINGING TO OUR GUNS, RELIGION,ETC.,ETC.,MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS.

    HE HAS MADE 1.7MILLION FLORIDIANS 1/2 WO/MEN LESS THAN THE 3/4THS AND 600,000+ MICHIGANIANS ZERO.
    WHAT IS THIS, TRANSCENDENCE OF *@$#? WHAT?

    [ Parent ]

    Ooops, correction to.. (none / 0) (#178)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:04 PM EST
    "PARTY....
    I OMITTED 'MY TO __PARTY...

    [ Parent ]
    I have problems with Obama. (5.00 / 6) (#6)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:45:30 PM EST
    This is one:

    As an Illinois senator he was the only one to vote against a bill to prevent early release for criminal sexual offenders.

    He has several really boneheaded votes that I've never seen explained.  Can anyone explain this one?  

    No and I imagine his supporters can't either (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:52:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    funny (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by progrocks on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:12:21 PM EST
    in the talk left i first came to a year ago would congratulate him on that choice. But that was when this site was about the politics of crime.

    So happy to see TChris posting a bit more

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by festus800 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:21:20 PM EST
    Obama should be applauded for making a smart and principled but politically unpopular stand against ridiculous crime pandering.  If you don't believe me, read this from Jeralyn in 2005:

    Gov. Arnold Asks for Tougher Sex Offender Laws

    Department of Justice statistics show that most child victims are assaulted by someone they know, not strangers. Sex offenders who receive treatment in prison are less likely to re-offend than non-sexual offenders.

    These laws pander to the public's fear and emotions, and they are not necessary. They are also a hindrance in allowing rehabilitated sex offenders to re-enter society, obtain housing and jobs.

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/08/17/634/06832

    [ Parent ]

    I wasn't posting here when that thread (none / 0) (#219)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:06:58 PM EST
    was posted...  

    But, unless you have been a victim of a sex offender, you have no idea how lenient our laws already are.  To start with, it's nearly impossible to get a conviction on a lot of these crimes.  

    Anyway, it's a long and involved story for me to get into to even try and explain why I feel the way I do but I honestly don't feel that sex offenders should be released early.  If anything, I feel a lot of them get sentences that are too short and many don't get convicted at all -- or even arrested.  

    [ Parent ]

    And Obama's dirty tricks (5.00 / 8) (#128)
    by Aqua Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:22:20 PM EST
    disgust me.

    The way his campaign demonized Hillary and Bill showed me his true colors.   And, what about destroying his fellow activists in Illinois campaign.

    The move denied each of them, including incumbent Alice Palmer, a longtime Chicago activist, a place on the ballot. It cleared the way for Obama to run unopposed on the Democratic ticket in a heavily Democrat district.

    "That was Chicago politics," said John Kass, a veteran Chicago Tribune columnist. "Knock out your opposition, challenge their petitions, destroy your enemy, right? It is how Barack Obama destroyed his enemies back in 1996 that conflicts with his message today.

    AND

    The Obama camp pulled a dirty trick. Jake Tapper of ABC News fell for it. To his credit, he later wrote about the realities of a video clip. It was time for the Obama camp to again play the race card. When he loses, they create racism where it doesn't exist. (Racism is very real and I'm not denying it exists. I am stating that the Obama camp has repeatedly created racism charges where there were none. So much for the 'unity' campaign.

    And, on and on.  For me Obama's character is in queston...big time.

    [ Parent ]

    wowsie! thanks for the info. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by sociallybanned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:22:31 PM EST
      I did not know that.  WTH!  That nucking futs.

    more and more add up!

    Socialist do not even like him yet some of his alliance here in the US (who don't know what socialism is), believe the Illnois papers when they call him a socialist.  Socialists are very much offended.  

    [ Parent ]

    perhaps he wanted the judges to decide. (none / 0) (#69)
    by coigue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:04:32 PM EST
    It is a politically charged issue, therefore I agree that judges should decide on leniency.

    [ Parent ]
    Are you guessing on this (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:16:44 PM EST
    or is this the reason he gave?  I find it highly suspect that he was the ONLY Illinois state senator who would have felt this way.  

    [ Parent ]
    In all fairness (none / 0) (#77)
    by jtaylorr on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:06:28 PM EST
    Hillary has made some equally bonehead votes, some even deadly. For example, she voted against a ban on cluster bombs. She didn't want to appear "soft on terror."

    [ Parent ]
    warfare isn't comparable to sex offenders (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:12:10 PM EST
    which often include pedophiles. Please stop the silliness

    [ Parent ]
    Silliness? (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by jtaylorr on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:22:49 PM EST
    Yeah, but (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:14:53 PM EST
    Obama was the ONLY one to vote against this bill.  Was Hillary the ONLY senator to vote on anything she voted on?  

    [ Parent ]
    That is totally and completely irrelevant (none / 0) (#136)
    by jtaylorr on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:25:33 PM EST
    Jeanette Rankin was the only person to vote against World War I and II. Does that make her vote wrong?

    [ Parent ]
    What's that old saying about (none / 0) (#210)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:59:14 PM EST
    20/20 hindsight?  In that view, yes, her vote was wrong.  

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not ready to be pro-Obama (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by KittyS on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:46:32 PM EST
    But I am ready to be anti-McCain.  

    same here (5.00 / 0) (#48)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:59:46 PM EST
    I'll leave it blank, I can't support either one

    [ Parent ]
    I have judged Obama on Obama (5.00 / 12) (#10)
    by janarchy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:48:14 PM EST
    and found him sorely lacking. To me, he's just another Dubya being foisted upon us by the DNC rather than the RNC. I don't trust his judgement at all, I don't like the way he played the game, and he's done nothing in his short, shallow career that gives me any confidence about him.

    This has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton and everything to do with Obama himself.

    Sorry, Jeralyn. There's no Unity for me. Sadly, there's no candidate for me either. I can't vote for either of the clowns now poised to be the nominee of their respective parties.

    I considered Obama (5.00 / 8) (#15)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:49:33 PM EST
    well in advance of my support for Hillary.  My thoughts on him as a candidate are independent of the way this primary has been conducted with respect to Hillary.  I don't think there is another candidate I have had such a strong disdain for outside of George Bush.  My views might change by November but at this point, I can't imagine voting for him.  

    I Do Not Support Obama Or The Actions (5.00 / 6) (#217)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:06:01 PM EST
    or direction of the NEW Democratic (Obama) Party. I trust neither to represent my interests or my values. I have never thought that Obama would end the occupation of Iraq and still don't think he will. To be fair, I don't think Hillary would either. I do not trust Obama to stand firm on any issue and believe he is more likely to successfully bargain away things like SS and health care.

    Do I think that McCain will represent me and my values? No. That is why I don't plan to vote for him either.

    My views and my vote have absolutely nothing to do with Hillary and everything to do with Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    Great... (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:49:42 PM EST
    he does not need my vote in California.  I cannot, unless Hillary is on the ticket.  I cannot give power to the "movement" and Axelrod.  

    I'm writing in Hillary too (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by pmj6 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:49:51 PM EST
    I have been judging Obama on Obama. I have been judging him on Rezko, Wright, Pfleger, Ayers, Dohrn, and the whole rest of them. I have been judging him on what he did to Alice Walker. I have been judging him on the GOP dog whistles throughout the campaign. To me, he's a cynical opportunist whose only discernible principle appears to be pursuit of power for himself. No way am I voting for him.

    And, by the way, did anyone catch that AIPAC speech? He all but threatened Iran with nuclear weapons ("I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons. Everything."--words have meanings, don't you know?) and royally screwed the Palestinians by promising Israel an undivided Jerusalem and a whole lot of other goodies besides. In other words, he promised to continue George W. Bush's policies.

    Oh lord. (1.00 / 3) (#46)
    by jtaylorr on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:59:17 PM EST
    So it's okay for Hillary to come out and say she'd obliterate Iran but it's not okay for Obama to imply it?


    [ Parent ]
    My goodness. (5.00 / 9) (#56)
    by pie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:01:41 PM EST
    Who knew that's what Hillary meant when she said something else.

    Please stop repeating the lies.

    [ Parent ]

    Kinda cute (5.00 / 11) (#75)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:05:59 PM EST
    the blogs that were all in a tizzy over Hillary's "obliterate" statement are quite silent about this, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on.

    [ Parent ]
    Couldn't posssibly (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by pie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:11:34 PM EST
    have something to do with something that was covered here, as a matter of fact:

    Obama Agrees With Policy, But Decries Clinton Language On Iran Attack On Israel  (Elections 2008, All Topics)
    posted by Big Tent Democrat on 05/04/2008 08:03:00 AM EST

    :)

    [ Parent ]

    Huh? (1.00 / 3) (#122)
    by mattt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:21:12 PM EST
    Barack left everything on the table.

    Hillary said "obliterate Iran."

    No difference?

    [ Parent ]

    Did you find it interesting... (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by kredwyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:27:05 PM EST
    that he would oppose K-L when he was running...but then turned around yesterday and said that it was right to designate Iran's Quds force (aka the Republican Guard) as a terrorist organization?

    I found it...ironic.

    [ Parent ]

    didn't he duck that vote? (5.00 / 3) (#162)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:35:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:36:16 PM EST
    No difference whatsoever.  "Everything in my power" is quite clear.  And Hillary was talking only about the extremely implausible scenario of Iran nuking Israel, while Obama was speaking more generally about the quite realistic problem of Iran pursuing nuclear weapons.

    If Hillary had said "everything in my power," without ruling out nukes or other drastic military action, there is no chance the blogs would have given her the benefit of the doubt.  I hope you're not foolish enough to think so.

    [ Parent ]

    He isn't running against Hillary anymore ... (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:37:42 PM EST
    retire these old talking points.

    [ Parent ]
    yes, there is a difference. (5.00 / 3) (#205)
    by huzzlewhat on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:54:45 PM EST

    Obama said he would do "everything" in his power to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons.

    Clinton said she would "obliterate" Iran if they used nuclear weapons to attack Israel.

    One's preemptive, the other's retaliatory.

    Obama's is worse.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm votin' for "The Democrat". (5.00 / 5) (#22)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:51:24 PM EST
    I'm used to it though.  I've only had one primary pick be nominated in my voting lifetime.

    How does it feel? (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by Burned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:40 PM EST
    I'm a lifelong loser. :(

    [ Parent ]
    depends how long you've been voting (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:01:04 PM EST
    I've always voted in the GE but this is the first primary I ever voted in and I lost

    [ Parent ]
    1980 Jerry Brown (none / 0) (#115)
    by Burned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:19:33 PM EST
    Downhill from there.

    [ Parent ]
    Bill Clinton, my only winner (5.00 / 6) (#195)
    by esmense on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:46:19 PM EST
    I didn't support him initially during the primary. But a few days before we voted the Seattle Times published one of the most informative bits of election reporting I've ever seen (they haven't done anything like it since). They asked 10 questions of each of the four candidates who were on the primary ballot (we still had open primaries then); George H. Bush, Pat Buchanan, Jerry Brown and Bill Clinton. They were very good questions; 5 questions of national importance, 5 dealing with important regional issues. The answers were presented in a grid -- the candidates names across the top, the 10 questions down the left hand side. This produced a series of boxes in which the answers floated. That is, the answers given by three out of four of the campaigns "floated," in mostly empty boxes. That's because the size of the boxes were determined by Bill Clinton's responses. He was the only candidate whose campaign answered all 10 questions -- in fulsome detail.

    I still remember exactly how many questions were answered by each of the candidates; Bush answered the first 3, each in exactly the same way -- with a one sentence response that basically said I can't answer that question at this time. The boxes for his answers to the remaining seven questions, including the 5 regional questions, were all blank. Buchanan answered 5, the national issue questions, with brief statements of campaign boiler plate. Brown answered 7, including 2 regional questions. But all of his answers were, like Buchanan, more statements of ideology than genuine responses to the questions as posed. Clinton, or, at least, his campaign, answered every question, including the 5 regional questions, in full and specific detail. Now, there was quite a bit of salesmenship in his answers, and there were points made that, if they had been stated to me in conversation, I would have expressed disagreement with and argued with him about. BUT THE RESPECT SHOWN TO THE VOTER BY HIS WILLINGNESS TO PUT HIMSELF ON THE LINE AND ANSWER SPECIFICALLY BLEW ME AWAY. I had never seen anything like it before and I haven't seen anything like it from anyone other than a Clinton since.

    I voted for him in the primary on the basis of that one thing -- his willingness to answer the voters questions. And I voted for him in the general election obviously. The only time in my life I ever voted for a winner in either the primary or the general election.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh, I noticed that with Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:58:38 PM EST
    when I went searching for statements and policy proposals to issues to compare on the candidates. Hers were always thorough, more direct and/or had more teeth.

    [ Parent ]
    I thought it was kinda weird actually. (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:03:57 PM EST
    I am kind of used to being in the minority.  Whenever I am not, I wonder if I am doing something wrong.  lol

    But the gods did intervene and Gore lost - I was still in the majority apparently - but still lost which seemed oddly "normal" at the time.  I was "this close" to hitting the trifecta!

    [ Parent ]

    I'm not sure I'd say Gore lost (none / 0) (#111)
    by Burned on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:18:09 PM EST
    he was robbed!

    [ Parent ]
    That's why I said I was in the majority. (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:25:46 PM EST
    He did win and he was robbed - but he did succumb to the media pressure to concede and as much as I love him I will always be upset with him about that...

    I couldn't watch that HBO movie past the point where Warren Christopher's character showed up. Had to turn it off.  I am still pissed off that people thought a gentleman's agreement about the winner of a presidential election was somehow more honorable than counting votes.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know where to go from here (5.00 / 7) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:51:48 PM EST
    I don't feel like going anywhere from here. Sorry BTD, but Obama is such an appeaser I don't see him getting us out of Iraq very quickly.  Hope I'm wrong if he becomes President.  I'm going to have to wait until some political vitality catches me.  I currently feel zippo enthusiasm or need for any of it.  November is a ways off so hopefully it will pass or a local issue will inspire my participation.

    Appeaser (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by hookfan on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:19:45 PM EST
    I think so too. However, because of this I'm beginning to reconsider Obama, although it's admittedly difficult to vote against principle.
       But consider that congress capitulated to Bush  and republicans on nearly everything, while they (the leaders anyway) have now stood up against and pulled down a powerful fellow Dem seemingly using any and all tactics they could get away with. That suggests to me there may be a slight glimmer of hope of a power fight between Obama and congress. recent history to the present (think fisa) suggests merely kvetching with capitulation to republicans if McCain is president. I'll also admit this may be a pipe dream. . .
       Finally, either McCain or Obama will be president whether we vote or not. I'd like to vote for somebody weak enough that congress has a slight hope to influence or stand up too.
      I'm a contrarian post Bush: weakness is good.

    [ Parent ]
    Speaking of being an appeaser (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by splashy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:07 PM EST
    I am concerned about this that I saw on Democracy Now, in an interview of Jeffery Scahill about Blackwater and whether the US will get rid of them  as part of our military setup.

    What's interesting--and you raised this with him--is that he won't take the step toward actually trying to ban these companies. Representative Jan Schakowsky and Senator Bernie Sanders have put forward legislation called the Stop Outsourcing Security Act in the Congress, and Barack Obama has said he's not going to come onboard and support that legislation.

    Interestingly, when I reported in The Nation that Obama would not support that legislation, which seeks to ban the use of these companies in US war zones, Hillary Clinton, five days before the Texas and Ohio primaries, the day my piece comes out, she responds by putting a statement on her website saying that she's going to endorse Bernie Sanders' legislation, and she becomes the single most important US political figure to come out for a ban. Now, I'm glad that Hillary Clinton did that, and I look forward to her making this one of her top legislative priorities after the primary season is over.

    I reccommend watching/reading the entire inteview.

    I'm not very comfortable with his stance on this. I'm hoping it will change.

    [ Parent ]

    As I have said, (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:52:30 PM EST
    I will be voting for Obama. I also hope he wins. I am unconvinced that he has anything better than an even shot at doing so, however.

    Agreed (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by IzikLA on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:12:18 PM EST
    I will vote for him.  Right now I don't like the thought of it at all but I can't stand the thought of McCain.  However, I agree with you about remaining unconvinced of his electability, even with the best climate possible out there right now for a Democrat.  

    Personally, I'm still reeling from the reality that the Dem's gave us a nominee that lost not only the major Democratic states but also almost all of the swing states, both big and small, (OH, PA, FL, MI, NV, NM, WV), by double digit margins across the board.

    [ Parent ]

    Cute, BTD. (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:52:48 PM EST
    "improving our health care system" because UHC is off the table since BO ran against it in the primary.  I think I am going to become more about issues than Party.  

    UHC is off the table (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:58:02 PM EST
    as an issue and policy, no matter which candidate is elected. Neither has a plan other than tax credit band-aids

    [ Parent ]
    Look, the notion that (5.00 / 9) (#30)
    by frankly0 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:04 PM EST
    Obama is not his supporters just ignores the fact that he is consciously putting together a "movement" -- and that that movement is composed of those very supporters.

    Certainly his online supporters are more vile than his offline supporters, on average. Certainly Obama is something more than just his supporters in general.

    But no political candidate that I know of has tied himself more to his supporters than has Obama. They are his adoring audience; he is their idolized leader. They take their cues from him, and he takes many of his cues from them.

    Can anyone say, for example, that one of the most vicious and gratuitous attacks on a political competitor -- the smear of Hillary over the RFK remarks -- did not come from the campaign itself, was not fed by the bile in his supporters, and did not feed it in turn?

    Really, talking as though a political leader is not in many critical ways defined by his core constituencies strikes me as completely wrong to the facts. Probably nothing is more important about most political leaders, nothing more defining of who they are and what they will do, than is the nature of the people who become their most fervent supporters. The relationship is symbiotic and existential. And this is particularly so when the candidate explicitly creates a movement around himself, based far more on personal attributes than on external issues.

    And I'll tell you, it's one of the things that scares me most about an Obama Presidency.

    Movement (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by bobbski on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:10:34 PM EST
    "And this is particularly so when the candidate explicitly creates a movement around himself, based far more on personal attributes than on external issues."

    Seems I remember reading about a couple of guys in Europe who built movements around their personalities not too long before I was born.

    I was born in July 1941.

    [ Parent ]

    What smear? (1.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:16:19 PM EST
    Compare the Obama campaigns reactions to RFK and Bosnia to Clinton's reactions to Bigger-gate and Wright. In fact, she even went hog wild on "plagiarism." How some of you can say this stuff with a straight face absolutely boggles the mind. Don't vote for Obama. But please don't make up fictitious rational for not doing so.

    And as someone else has pointed out, outside of this little corner of the world some Hillary supporters were considered vile racists. This was a real phenomenon, not imagened or manufactured slights and insults. Hillary did not come out strongly against them.

    [ Parent ]

    I know I'm wasting my time (5.00 / 6) (#150)
    by frankly0 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:29:42 PM EST
    talking to you, but maybe others will grasp the point.

    The smear of Hillary over her remarks mentioning RFK's assassination were 100% manufactured outrage. Months before, she had made identical remarks, in Time Magazine no less, and not a single word was said about their supposed outrageousness.

    I don't care how many of your fellow Obama subjectivists claim otherwise; there was not a rational reason in the world to claim that there was something sinister in Hillary's remarks.

    In all of the cases where Hillary criticized Obama, Obama clearly had said or done something he shouldn't. Perhaps Hillary made more of some than she might have or even should have; but Obama had made a clear mistake, and Hillary seized on it, as politicians do.

    I just wish somewhere, somehow I could meet an honest Obama supporter.

    I'm thinking I need a lantern.

    [ Parent ]

    Did Obama or his campaign fan the flames? (1.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:46:53 PM EST
    Did they run ads? Did they hold press conferences? On this site I often will demand specifics and proof because some people are prone to saying just anything, usually without any basis in fact.

    Yes, the Obama campaign made a statement? Obama's own statement was protective toward Hillary. Ironically, the real manufactured outrage was directed against Obama for allegedly fanning flames that he never fanned.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah (5.00 / 9) (#181)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:40:24 PM EST
    The Obama campaign gleefully sent around Keith Olbermann's toxic special comment on RFK-gate to every political journalist in existence, the very day it happened.  Most Obama supporters don't even appear to understand this basic fact, because it's just so obvious to them that Obama is far too classy to ever go near that kind of ridiculous smear.

    By comparison, Hillary barely touched Wright when the story broke.  When she made her first comment on the issue, the rather mild observation that she would not have belonged to that church, the outrage meter went up to 11 just as if she'd put streaming video of Wright on the front page of her website.

    The insistence of Obama supporters on trying to manufacture their own reality is quite infuriating.  Look, just because you say Obama didn't touch RFK, that won't make it true.

    [ Parent ]

    She created an advertising campaign (1.00 / 2) (#203)
    by Seth90212 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:52:49 PM EST
    around bittergate. She held a news conference in which she denounced Obama over Wright. Do you understand how much hay Obama could've made with Bosnia? Why did Obama not touch Hillary and Bill's sudden wealth and the origins of that wealth. It certainly will become an issue if she is ever vetted for the VP job. That means that it was a substantial issue, but Obama left it alone during the primaries.

    [ Parent ]
    If I want to stay true to my beliefs... (5.00 / 10) (#31)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:11 PM EST
    ... I can't vote for Obama. I won't vote for McCain, either, but I really don't want the Democratic Party to become Republican Lite, and the way Axelrod has run this campaign reminds me way too much of how Rove runs his. I've said before that I realized that I couldn't vote for Obama when he implicitly endorsed the hatred by not criticizing Jesse Jackson Jr. for making the tears/Katrina comment. He is either ignorant or complicit. Neither is acceptable.

    What's the point of supporting a candidate who is willing to lie and distort what their opponent says and believes in order to win? How can I trust him to tell me the truth as President if he shows that he will say or do anything to win while he is campaigning? I might as well vote for the Republican Party if I'm willing to tolerate that kind of politics. I don't expect my leaders to be perfect, but they have to meet minimal standards of honesty and civility, and Obama has failed those tests.

    He scares me. (5.00 / 7) (#32)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    ancient crone that I am.  Maybe he will do something to convince me that he has convictions.  Right now, it seems to me he sways with the breeze.

    New Trade Bill introduced (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:48 PM EST
    Following a presidential primary season highlighting broad public concern about current trade policies, the Trade Reform, Accountability, Development and Employment (TRADE) Act introduced on June 4, 2008 by Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) and Rep. Mike Michaud (D-Maine) reveals a way forward to a new trade and globalization agenda that could benefit more Americans. The bill is supported by a broad array of labor, consumer, environmental, family farm and faith groups and more than 50 House and Senate original cosponsors.

    for more info or to download a PDF of the full bill go here

    if you want your congress critters to support it, go here

    I see the whole process in need of... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by citizen53 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:53:51 PM EST
    change.

    Glen Ford at Black Agenda Report says it well:


    It does not really matter if Senators Obama and Clinton ever develop a fondness for one another, now that the pay-for-play primary charade is over. Their policies are interchangeable, as are their advisers, most of whom will wind up drawing big fat checks from some section or another of the larger Democratic campaign effort.   All serve the same masters: the financial corporations that this season definitively redirected their infinitely corrupting campaign contributions to the Democrats. Hedge funds are reported to be backing Democrats, nine to one. They are betting that, whatever "change" occurs, it will not alter basic power relationships in ways that threaten the rule of the rich one iota.


    Nothing will change for the rich? (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:04:49 PM EST
    Does that even need to be said?  I never thought that was going to happen.  I was hoping for some shift in some policy areas like health care.  I have a BS, I don't believe BS.

    [ Parent ]
    And they would be right about that IMHO (none / 0) (#90)
    by RalphB on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:12:25 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Don't want the party nor obama (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by delacarpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:58:35 PM EST
    i am now an independent, as my party left me, and no obama please, as he caused the party to leave me. thank god Clinton won't me on the ticket.

    One interesting theory about voting for McCain (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Exeter on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:59:28 PM EST
    I recently argued with a liberal democrat that is voting for McCain. His argument was that although he liked Obama and agreed with him on most issues, he felt that this was a key moment for the Republican party. The net gain for the country would move more to the left because the McCain would move the GOP closer to the center.  

    Tell your friend (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by mattt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:24:07 PM EST
    that "maverick" McCain of 2000 wouldn't even vote for the McCain running in 2008.  He's rushed to embrace every neocon / tax-nihilist position and bares little resemblance to the candidate Rove smeared in 2000.

    [ Parent ]
    Do I feel the Unity? (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Carolyn in Baltimore on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:00:12 PM EST
    I was called many names and so were other supporters. BTW - 50 is not post-sexual, it's where it gets good. Obama supporters made up all kinds of reasons I liked Hillary - but the fact is I didn't like Obama. For very rational reasons. But 'they' have made it personal.

    Now we're being told we're grieving emotional sore losers. Believe me - we've lost plenty of elections in my 54 years. I worry for my country but I can move on.

    I will never vote for a McCain. But Obama has yet to earn my trust or my vote. I will probably vote for him but I usually am at the polling places with leaflets, or making phone calls to GOTV.

    I believe he could earn some enthusiasm from me. I'm waiting. I hope he's listening.

    Afternoon laugh... (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:00:15 PM EST
    Obama on Congress: 'I'll whup 'em'

    "Sen. Barack Obama, the Democratic Party's presumptive presidential nominee, signaled Thursday that he really means business when it comes to health care reform."

    CNN

    saw that, too (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by shannon on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:06:46 PM EST
    I was just going to post that. Don't you love the rock star swagger and tough-guy comments? Sounds a little like GWB to me.

    [ Parent ]
    I know he was joking (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by cmugirl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:16:17 PM EST
    Because the old man gave him a walking stick, but the thing I can't get past is that since he really IS the Washington establishment candidate (since that's all his backers), he will be heeding the will of Kennedy (if he stays in the Senate), Kerry, and Pelosi. Yeah - he'll "whup 'em" all right.

    [ Parent ]
    A possible Dem pres (5.00 / 4) (#104)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:15:59 PM EST
    is going to whup a Dem Congress... are they disagreeing with him on health care.... ??

    I'm really glad he is committed to his health insurance plan.  I'm sure I'll be as ecstatic to give my tax dollars to the bloated, corporate, insurance industry as the industry will be to get them.

    [ Parent ]

    True to my view. (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:02:16 PM EST
    My view is that Obama has consistently veered to the right when pressured to even the slightest degree.

    Recently, he wore the good old flag pin.

    In moments of jingoistic stupidity he has echoed Bush and McCain vis a vis Pakistan and Iran.

    He fled from a progressive posture of willingness to meet with adversaries without preconditions.

    We all know that he supported Lieberman against Lamont when his support for Lamont would have been meaningful.

    If I am to be persuaded to consider voting for this man, he'll have to begin to enunciate progressive positions and hold to them.

    Otherwise, he is just McCain wearing a mask.

    The hillarious thing is (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:37:37 PM EST
    Lieberman endorsed McCain.  Obama was apparently PISSED!

    [ Parent ]
    the judging of a candidate by looking at their (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:03:41 PM EST
    supporters is. Well.  I can definitely see how one would implore others to make such a distinction in this case.

    Thing is, that fundies are OK with and support Bush is one way, a legitimate way, to express concern about his priorities and how he will govern.  To look at Bush and see a fundie's approval.

    So is it so wrong to look at Obama and see wrights approval?

    Does Wright (none / 0) (#171)
    by mattt on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:37:28 PM EST
    still approve?  A lot of people have reported he felt disrespected by Obama's big speech on race and his over-the-top performances recently have been due to pique at BO.

    Wright represents where Obama comes from.  Lots of us came from places (ideologically) we're not real proud of.  For example my own parents, who I love dearly and thank for the opportunites they provided me, are deeply racist.

    Where we come from is not the same as where we are now, or where - if we have the talent or commitment necessary for leadership - we would like to lead the nation.

    [ Parent ]

    Uh (5.00 / 6) (#194)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:46:17 PM EST
    Obama hasn't even been out of the church one week, and you're already talking about it like it's some piece of trivia from his distant past.

    There are plenty of arguments you can make to defend Obama on the Wright matter.  My suggestion is that you work on finding one that doesn't insult the intelligence of everyone present.  Comparing Wright to your parents, whom you obviously didn't choose, is just silly.

    [ Parent ]