home

Hillary Event to Be Held Saturday in D.C.

Just in from the Clinton campaign:

"Senator Clinton will be hosting an event in Washington, DC to thank her supporters and express her support for Senator Obama and party unity. This event will be held on Saturday to accommodate more of Senator Clinton's supporters who want to attend."

< Obama Won . . . Barely | Why Obama Won't Pick Hillary for VP >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    I Just Pray (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:45:20 PM EST
    That all the effuse Hillary has had to wade through for the past several months will finally disperse---but somehow I doubt it!

    From Corrente: Hillary should stay in! (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:34:28 PM EST
    Great story: Hillary Clinton should Continue her Campaign. It makes the case that Hillary owes it to us (her supporters), and herself, and the country, and the party, to stay in.

    The author makes an interesting comparison between Hillary and RFK, in terms of the transformation they underwent in campaigning for their respective nominations.

    Bobby Kennedy's campaign did not change America; the people of America changed him. As with Bobby Kennedy 40 years ago, this campaign has made her a better person...

    When she talks of her responsibility to those who voted for her, it has to my ears no sound of falseness. I believe she has seen her calling, I believe she feels she has been handed a sacred trust, and I believe she will seek to carry out the mandate of that trust as fully and completely as she can. To do so, she must stay in the nomination race until it is completed - in Denver, at the end of August. To do otherwise would break the contract that binds her, and will devalue in an irreparable way her own sense of self.

    The rest of the story is also thoroughly compelling, and encouraging, imo.

    Parent

    I'm crossing my fingers (5.00 / 7) (#6)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:48:13 PM EST
    that she just suspends and keeps her delegates. Even if the nomination fight is over, which I don't accept yet, we need to be heard at the convention. I'm very discouraged about the Democratic Party as a whole after their travesty of a decision on MI. I was so sure they'd do the right thing and count according to the vote or not at all.

    From what I have read, she is holding onto (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM EST
    her delegates.  She can watch the GOP bruise and batter obama from a ringside seat.  I suspect she will be looking alot better than obama by the convention.

    Parent
    That's suspension (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:56:56 PM EST
    She will keep her delegates, and for a very good reason.

    McCain is trying to get 10 debates/townhalls through the summer. The DNC needs to be pressured to make him participate. As it stands, he's not accepting.

    Enough bad press and the supers are going to have to get their souls back and make sure the nominee is someone who has a decent chance of winning.


    Parent

    I can't imagine letting him debate. (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:02:38 PM EST
    He'll need Hillary to help him prepare...oops, wait, he doesn't want her anywhere near him.My money's on there will be no debate and they'll use the excuse that he's not the full nominee yet.

    Parent
    That will make him (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by americanincanada on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:16:44 PM EST
    look unacceptably weak, IMHO.

    Parent
    Why give McCain free press? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:20:54 AM EST
    Let McCain flounder for the 10 weeks between now and the Convention.  Then start with the town halls and the debates, once the General Election financial season has started.

    Parent
    Interesting. Sounds good. (none / 0) (#66)
    by talex on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:45:55 PM EST
    Where did you read this? I'd like to give it a read myself.

    Parent
    Concede v Suspend (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:16 PM EST
    I hate to sound stupid, but what is the difference at this point.  If she suspends does that mean she is still a candidate, versus conceding where she takes her candidcy out of play or what?  
    again sorry to sound stupid.  and sorry for the spelling

    Parent
    It means her delegates (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by masslib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:11:25 PM EST
    still get to vote for her at convention.  It's very important they do.  I pray the Democratic establishment and Obama realize that.

    Parent
    So does that mean (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST
    that if say obama weakened for whatever reason or if she some how becomes stronger, or if she is able to pull of a major endorsement or her popular vote lead gains traction that she could still decide to fight at the convention for the nomination.  so if I am understanding this it would mean that it is like saying okay it looks like you will win, but i am not quite convinced so I am leave myself some option that could still allow me to become the nominee

    Parent
    Candy Crowly mention just that (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:17:03 PM EST
    this afternoon.

    Parent
    VP and concede (none / 0) (#166)
    by laurie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:47:07 PM EST
    If she accepts VP does that mean she concedes, or is it still a suspension??

    Parent
    Concede means quit, (none / 0) (#31)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:59 PM EST
    IMO, that she releases her delegates to Obama and gets out of the race entirely. Suspend means she and her staff can take a nice vacation and go refreshed to the convention with her delegates intact. No expert though, so maybe someone who knows more can answer better :)

    Parent
    Can I ask... (none / 0) (#25)
    by anydemwilldo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:08:35 PM EST
    I know this sounds like trolling, but it's really a sincere question:

    What message, specifically, do you want Obama to hear?  What positions do you want him to take?  I mean, I absolutely agree that your concerns should be heard.  I'm just not sure exactly what they are, honestly.

    Parent

    I would like him to adopt (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:10:02 PM EST
    Clinton's UHC and I would like him to put her on the ticket.  He also needs to pick up her populist economic message, more problem solving less hope/change.

    Parent
    She's better off where she is in the Senate (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:30 PM EST
    and he needs to show that judgment he's selling and come up with a UHC plan that works and includes everyone. If he's going to take hers, why wouldn't we just insist she be the presidential nominee?

    No free rides for Obama.

    Parent

    I wonder just what pull she'll have (none / 0) (#80)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:04:54 PM EST
    in the senate. They may shun her Harry Reid has already said no majority leader for her.

    Parent
    As a former Edwards supporter (none / 0) (#128)
    by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:26:01 AM EST
    I am hopeful.  Obama and Edwards are doing a poverty tour, and I'm sure Edwards will give Obama whatever blunt advice he thinks Obama needs along the way.

    I think Hillary has more power outside of the VP slot than in it, but he'd be dumb not to listen to her own preference as to how she can have influence.

    I think both Clinton's and Obama's UHC need "help", but agree that Clinton's is marginally better.

    Parent

    andydemwilldo, your question is more like (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:29 PM EST
    an assignment: the answer would require a thesis. I'd suggest you scroll back through the past few weeks posts here at TL, read a few stories and comments, that'll get you up to speed, somewhat.

    I don't mean to suggest this unkindly.

    Parent

    The Democratic Party (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:25:32 PM EST
    is my major concern here, been an active member my whole life and never voted for a Republican. When I was a kid in the 80's, we all got really excited when our local Dem party got access to a letter-sized automatic folding machine, because the kids stuffed mailers, nailed signs to stakes, and ran around doing GOTV with their families. We're Democrats born and raised, and we need to have a voice in what direction our party goes.

    That Democratic Party was about the people, about counting our votes, and about standing up for social justice and civil rights. That Party would never have officially authorized one Dem candidate gaming the system to take votes away from another candidate. This isn't so much about Obama, his job is to get the nom as best he can, but more about the Party itself throwing the race his way by discounting voters. I still have hopes that the convention won't accept the MI compromise, even if it has no effect whatsoever on the nomination. The MI decision is a dealbreaker for many lifelong Dems.

    Parent

    I completely agree (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:42:56 PM EST
    I think that we must stay in the party and fight for it.  so to paraphase THIS IS OUR PARTY. THIS IS OUR PARTY.

    Parent
    It's hard to fight a party who says (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:06:53 PM EST
    based on your age, sex, income, color we don't want you anymore. We can win w/o you. So, some of us will walk away, not necessarily vote for McCain, but we'll not vote Obama. My country deserves more imo.

    Parent
    I do not mean (none / 0) (#85)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:13:18 PM EST
    to fight to help Obama, but rather fight Obama for control of the Party.  He will become the head of the party, but we can still control the party by getting more involved in the inner workings of the party.  Work to elect dnc members who work for us.  work to take control of state parties. we start by taking control of county parties, and in some cases city parties, not sure if there is such a thing, I live in montana. so not sure about large cities.

    Parent
    What do you want? (none / 0) (#130)
    by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:30:59 AM EST
    I just took control of my county party in 2005, and am a definite Deaniac.  I helped take over the Colorado Democratic Party in 2007 from a leadership that had forgotten its roots in party-building and candidate nurturing.  Obama is a supporter of the 50-state strategy and the grassroots; I have less of a problem with his ascension to the party leadership than I would have had with Clinton's re-installation of Terry McAuliffe.

    Parent
    Well of course... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Y Knot on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:12:16 AM EST
    That all depends on Clinton.  If she gracefully bows out, and supports him until the convention, there would be no reason for the MI compromise to stand.  

    They'd be much more likely to just seat them with half votes, give Clinton hers and let the uncommitted ones remain uncommitted.

    Of course, if she shows signs that she's going to try to overturn the nomination on the floor, I don't see much chance of that compromise changing.

    And for the record, I don't say this with any particular agenda.  I think the FL agreement was as good as we could have hoped for, but the MI agreement was a travesty, and I'm an Obama supporter.  I'm just saying what I think would happen... not what I'd want to happen.

    Parent

    That's unacceptable to me (none / 0) (#164)
    by eleanora on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:21:34 PM EST
    and to every longtime Dem I know, no matter who they supported. "Give" Clinton hers? Those are not their votes to give. I'm fine with the 50% count, as long as they are counted as voted and not changed to the way the party wishes the voters had gone.

    Total dealbreaker. He needs to come up with the pledged delegates another way to win, has nothing to do with her conceding "gracefully." This isn't about Clinton or Obama, this is about the party stealing legal votes legally cast in a legal election. Democrats. don't. do. that.

    Parent

    The Dem Party had to do what they did. (none / 0) (#110)
    by BestinShow on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:02:34 AM EST
    With race this close, Obama had to be the winner. The Dem Party could not risk pissin' off/losing the African America community. IMO



    Parent

    I can't believe she is dropping out (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by melro on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:40 PM EST
    because I just copied a post on No Quarter that the final tally was in and explained that pledged delegates are all that count right now and neither Obama nor Clinton had enough. Obama had 1766.5 and Clinton 1639.5. Superdelegates do not count as they do not cast their votes until August. They can side with whoever they want now and it does not matter. Even Lou Dobbs said it was no where near over until the convention.

    There is something funny about her conceding.  

    She's not conceding (5.00 / 7) (#16)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:57:20 PM EST
    The difference between superdelegates and pledged delegates has been addressed over and over and over and over. Jeralyn writes it in her posts, and commenters are talking about it all the time.

    The media is trying its level best to write the news, not report it. It's better for ratings, apparently.


    Parent

    She'll be on MY ballot, one way or another (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:50:34 PM EST
    The Dems behaved disgracefully. Regardless of the media spree, I don't like their imposition of hobbles and false weights in this race.

    Bush wasn't my president in 2000.

    Obama didn't earn his spot on the ticket, but he won't make it to the White House so he won't be my president either.

    Parent

    She isn't conceding...she is suspending.... (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:29:52 PM EST
    And I mentioned that before...it is pledge delegates that count toward the magic number, not SD's....he just chose to crown himself king of the hill...

    Parent
    Absolutely Amazing (none / 0) (#165)
    by melro on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:35:42 PM EST
    What I can't understand is that all the young, college students went for Obama because he embraced change. Did anyone tell them, change is up to them and they picked the man that is willing to steal delegates from Hillary, and go along with lopsided justice against mainstream America, and announce himself the king?

    Boy are we skipping a heck of a lot of processes. The Bush/Cheney regime has rubbed off on all of us, although they basically skip over the whole constitution.

    I thought the same thing as what Ann Coulter, (who I hate, is obnoxious, etc.), has recently written about. When Gore lost but had the popular vote Democrats were really angry. Now Hillary loses even though she has the popular vote within her own party and it's OK.

    The Dems are the party of concessions, and we always lose because of it.

    Parent

    I think... (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:49:41 PM EST
    she is going to release her super-delegates, and that is about it.  She's going to talk about how much pressure they are under, and tell them that they are free to endorse Obama, but that she is not conceding.

    Close (5.00 / 0) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:20:42 PM EST
    I think she will allow them to choose. If they feel they can't wait until convention to make their choice known, she won't hold them to the endorsement they gave her, but she'll ask them to come back if something comes up to suggest the party needs to rethink Obama.

    However, what's the point? As long as he is sitting where the media and he think he's got this etched in stone, why bother?

    I'll bet a large majority will stay with her.

    Parent

    My understanding (none / 0) (#56)
    by sander60tx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:35:52 PM EST
    is that the superdelegates are free to change their mind whenever they like.  So, they're not hers to "release."  Several have switched from one candidate to another (and even back again).  I think we've already seen some SD's shifting from Clinton to Obama in a show of unity.  However, if Obama has been beaten to a pulp by August, then the SD's are still free to change their mind.  The republicans will likely save their best ammo for after the convention, however.

    Parent
    And, you're exactly right (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:50:41 PM EST
    However, Rendell said tonight that he wouldn't change without her suspending. I'm pretty sure that Hillary's superdelegates are as committed as her supporters. They are genuinely with her and see no reason to hitch their pony to a wagon missing all four wheels.

    The ones that do are clearly only doing it for the publicity.

    Parent

    that's the whole point... (none / 0) (#76)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:57:14 PM EST
    the idea being that they are free to do what is politicially expedient now, then come back to her when the time is right.  

    It allows for a "show of party unity", while making it far easier for them to change their minds again in the future

    Parent

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#12)
    by melro on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:49 PM EST
    She better... (none / 0) (#59)
    by p lukasiak on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:28 PM EST
    because I just sent her $100 last night to make it possible for her to continue -- NOT to help her retire her campaign debt...and in my message I said I could not support Obama.  So if she endorses Obama on Saturday, I'm asking for a refund! ;-)

    Parent
    Let us know how that works out for you. :) (none / 0) (#143)
    by Y Knot on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:14:55 AM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    Super-delegates are not "released" (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:18:12 AM EST
    as they are not pledged.  Supers can switch at will, as some of the ingrates certainly showed yesterday, some without even calling her as a courtesy.  

    I hope that she suspends so as to retain her pledged delegates, in the event that she revives her run -- or at least as leverage to clean up the corruption in the party by taking the rules fiasco to the credentials committee and even to the convention floor.

    She always can release right up to the first vote at the end of the convention.  If not, if the party won't do what needs doing, she can retain them through the first ballot.  Then they (most, per state rules) are free . . . after Dean, Brazile, et al., have had to sweat a bit. :-)

    Parent

    Hillary should keep (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by nulee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:50:57 PM EST
    her delegates, and I think she should insist on being the keynote speaker

    Details (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Athena on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:04:50 PM EST
    That spot is usually an audition for a novice, and that's not her.  She can ask for a speaking slot for herself at the convention, have her name placed in nomination on August 27, have votes cast for her that same night - and if she wins, have an acceptance speech on August 28.

    Parent
    She does give some pretty damn good (none / 0) (#53)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:32:02 PM EST
    speeches and doesn't even need a teleprompter. :)

    Parent
    what? (none / 0) (#155)
    by karen for Clinton on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:25:47 AM EST
    Keynote speakers are just a tad less important than the potential nominees who have been campaigning their hearts out for the past year.

    To suggest that role for her is insulting isn't it?  Sorta like the "also ran" status the DNC page gives her with a little "thanks Hillary" box... not that I'm sending THEM a penny.

    They should be reminded to be careful who they select for keynote honor.  They shouldn't select someone who could possibly catapult themselves into the top of the party based on a speech.

    Hindsight.

    Parent

    I wish I could be there (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:07 PM EST
    If anyone goes, please give us firsthand account

    Me too! (none / 0) (#14)
    by Grace on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:54:19 PM EST
    Anybody going?

    Parent
    D.C. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Athena on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:58:04 PM EST
    I may go.  I'd certainly like to.

    Parent
    If I find out I'm important enough (none / 0) (#34)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:02 PM EST
    to be invited, I'll go.

    Parent
    where is Kathy (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:53:50 PM EST
    someone asked on earlier thread...did she say she would be in Europe or somewhere during this time?

    Miss her!

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:55:32 PM EST
    Sad day (5.00 / 10) (#20)
    by marisol on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:01:58 PM EST
    I wasn't a strong Clinton supporter, but over the course of this campaign I came to realize how much I really wanted to finally see a woman as POTUS.  And I came to admire Hillary more as I saw her keep going, no matter how much sexist s**t got thrown at her.

    I talked with a 78-year-old friend today, a woman who grew up in Depression, married and raised six kids while working, who went to the Houston Women's Conference in 1977 and who has served on our City Council and in the State Legislature. She's one of the strongest & most committed people I've ever known. She was so very discouraged and angry; so tired of waiting. It's not going to happen in her lifetime.

    I've seen many comments in other blogs about how another [unnamed] woman will be able to run for Pres. in the near future & how Hillary has paved the way.

    Maybe it's just the discouragement I'm feeling tonight, but I can't see any other woman being able to get there, never mind withstand this kind of onslaught.  Thanks to Sen. Clinton for her courage.

    sadly, (5.00 / 6) (#27)
    by ccpup on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:11:13 PM EST
    I spoke with my 14 year old niece today and she's decided to no longer do her homework or work really hard at anything because, as she put it, "why be the best and try really hard like Hillary when the dumb boys like Obama are just going to steal it from you anyway?"

    I tried to explain a bit of politics to her, but she wouldn't hear it.  In her mind, the person who was the best and had worked hard all her life was cheated out of something she earned by the guy who didn't deserve it.  She also contends that most of the girls in her class feel the same way, so why try to do anything anymore? is their attitude.

    Ugh.

    Parent

    Response (5.00 / 8) (#44)
    by Athena on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:24:15 PM EST
    If they do nothing, they will certainly not get far. But if they are angry - and not defeated - that will provide the energy to keep going and correct what they see now.  

    Remind them that Hillary (and many of us here) saw a political world with hardly any women at all when we grew up - and we got mad enough to try to change it.  And 2008 reflects that.

    Please remind them that women have not even had the right to vote in the U.S. for a century yet. Only 88 years.  We are finally taking our place in the American political system.

    They can honor Hillary by doing what she did - jumping into the fray, and staying strong.  Their generation will surely get farther if that happens. We are counting on them.

    Parent

    Outstanding post. (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by eleanora on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:30:10 PM EST
    This is exactly what Hillary would want us to take away from this fight. No matter what happens, we need to be part of the battle and never surrender. Thank you so much for articulating it so perfectly.

    Parent
    Dems to girls: You can do anything EXCEPT ... (5.00 / 5) (#89)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:20:58 PM EST
    Lead the party as President, even if you're eminently qualified.

    I was disgusted with the Obama "it's our turn" baloney, which exploited legitimate African American dissatisfaction to cover his baldly apparent lack of qualification for the office.

    He doesn't have the experience, record or credibility that Sen Clinton has.

    She's not only blamed for questioning it, but the Dems take away what she's accomplished to give it to him so he can pretend he "won".

    The message I'd give to girls today: use your skills to get ahead your way, don't accept second class and write your own ticket, literally.

    And if you want to go into politics, don't join the Democratic Men's Party.

    Parent

    That really breaks my heart (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by standingup on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:29:59 PM EST
    Please tell her that we have come a long ways from the 90 year old women voting for Hillary who were born when women were not able to vote.  And though it is not fair, we have a long proud history of not giving up but continuing to fight with grace and dignity.  We might have lost the battle but not the war and this primary has awakened the warrior in many of us.  

     

    Parent

    this is a great time to review women's history (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:47:22 PM EST
    too see how far we've come, where we're sliding (or accepting what we shouldn't) and where we still need to get. In all fields/walks of life. There's more than one ceiling left to break  ;) We need to up our averages.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:15:45 AM EST
    and we should go further than a review.  I sent Jeralyn an email suggesting that women's political issues would be good for a new blog that she had proposed to keep the readers/commenters supporting Hillary around and engaged.  There are some very knowledgeable members, Cream City for one, who could contribute to the discussion that we should be having to see that we keep moving forward in a positive way.  What better evidence of a need is there than the story of ccpup's niece?  

    Parent
    As Kathy would say -- you rang? :-) (none / 0) (#127)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:22:01 AM EST
    Thanks for that.  I do love to research and teach women's history . . . and it would be even more fun to do it without have to do grading.  I hate grading.  It's so darn judgmental.  In my courses, I tell students from the first day that they all have A's -- remember how it felt like we started with F's and had to work up? -- and then all they have to do is hang onto them.  And so many do, bless them. :-)

    So let's all start with A's and have some fun!

    Parent

    Tell her Hillary's story of wanting to be (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:26:05 AM EST
    an astronaut and being told that girls couldn't do that.  Then tell her that Hillary has flown higher now than anyone, woman or man, before her in primaries, with her record number of votes.  

    And tell her that girls can grow up to be astronauts now, so we need this generation to get ready with all the skills they will need to fly all the way to the White House.  

    What is that saying?  We give them roots so that they will grow wings.  Some of us take wing in spaceships, some of us wing our way any way we can -- but only if we are ready when the heavens open. :-)

    Parent

    You could point out (none / 0) (#144)
    by Y Knot on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:20:09 AM EST
    That Obama isn't a "dumb boy" but actually a quite intelligent, articulate and accomplished human being, who, like Hillary is also a ground-breaking historical figure.  

    And that, while it certainly is disappointing to a lot of women out there, thanks to him, millions of black children can look up to him as a genuine role model many of whom tonight may be working harder than ever to make themselves into better people.

    Then you could tell her that someday, if she works hard, she could beat one of them to become President.

    Just, you know, one possible reaction.

    Parent

    Ya know, (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:18:49 AM EST
    some of us women are just so frakkin sick of hearing about "someday". What drivel!

    Parent
    I'm know you are... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Y Knot on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:31:45 AM EST
    And honestly, I sympathize.  I've heard from a lot of women who are feeling incredible, anguish, frustration and even despair.

    My point was simply that while there is a lot of sadness on one hand, there's much reason to rejoice on the other.  This was the downside of having two historical firsts running against one another.  Someone's dreams would be realized, and others would be dashed.

    But things are changing quickly in America.  Gay people can marry for the first time (in some places), a black man is a presidential nominee, one woman is the Speaker of the House, and another made an incredible, powerful and moving run for the Presidency.  While many things have gotten worse in America in the past eight years, these recent events can give us hope that they're starting to get better.  For all of us.

    I certainly didn't mean to in any way belittle your pain.  I'm sorry if I did.


    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by chrisvee on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:24:31 AM EST
    keep working hard ladies and maybe in another lifetime or ten you too can have a POTUS.

    Parent
    This is all surreal. (5.00 / 11) (#23)
    by masslib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:06:36 PM EST
    I really think the establishment and the media picked Obama and ultimately the voters picked Clinton.  It just took some time to get there.  I feel we are missing our chance at greatness.  It should have been Clinton/Obama.  It would have been something.

    How Much Did A Delegate Cost? (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Athena on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:12:28 PM EST
    Great analysis today at RCP by Jay Cost:

    Obama's voters are worth more delegates. Put precisely, there are 10,237 voters for every Obama pledged delegate and 10,807 voters for every Clinton pledged delegate. That's a difference in Obama's favor of 570 voters per delegate.


    Parent
    I had not heard this before (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:21:14 PM EST
    kind of shocking.  He really didn't win.

    Parent
    Of course he didn't win (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by Davidson on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:42:02 PM EST
    The nomination was rigged from the beginning, the caucuses were absolute frauds, the superdelegates were bought, and the corrupt RBC stole scores of delegates from her.

    Absolutely disgusting.  And the GOP will shred Obama and the DNC apart for it.  What better way to nominate the first black nominee than to have it by illegitimate and blatantly fraudulent means?  Perfect, just perfect.

    Parent

    And, the media thinks (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:45:41 PM EST
    the only reason Clinton supporters won't vote for Obama is because their feelings are hurt.

    Parent
    My feelings aren't hurt (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:48:36 PM EST
    I'm just insulted.

    Parent
    Davidson's post (none / 0) (#77)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:00:34 PM EST
    has reasons that don't "heal" with time the way the media is reporting this will all play out.

    Parent
    EXCUSE ME... (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:47:04 AM EST
    I happened to participate in and run one of those caucuses.  (Actually, I got the distinct pleasure of herding 6 precinct caucuses while trying to attend one of them...)

    The caucus process is different, but calling it a fraud is insulting to the many, many people who took part in them and became active in their party as a result.  Caucus attendees elect the vast majority of our party central committee, and they go on to elect the leadership of our party, and those leaders in turn choose the leadership for our state, including DNC representation.

    When I lived in primary states (NY and PA) I never once was invited to influence the direction of my party.  I never once got to select which delegates represented me at conventions.  And I never once got to recommend platform planks.

    So be unhappy with the results, but don't call the 233 people who attended my small-county caucuses fraudsters.

    Parent

    OK... (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Y Knot on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:39:12 AM EST
    Come on now, I know people are upset, but a lot of this is just nonsense.

    Yes, caucuses are stupid, antiquated and inefficient... but its how some states choose to vote for their nominees.  Obama didn't come up with the system, he didn't "cheat" in the caucuses.  He just paid attention to those states while Clinton didn't.  There was nothing fraudulent about them.  Retarded and sad, yes.  But fraud?  Please.

    No one seemed to be complaining when the super delegates were all lined up behind Clinton.  Again, it's a stupid system, but it's the system we've had for decades.   Did he try to persuade them? Almost certainly.  But I've seen nothing to indicate he did anything that Clinton didn't do, or didn't try to do.  

    As for the RBC... I've said repeatedly that the Michigan decision was wrong.  I understand the rationale, but I don't see where they had the authority to do what they did.  So I half agree with you there.  Although, for the record, they stole 4 of her delegates, not scores.  Hopefully, that will be rectified in August.

    As for the popular vote thing.  I know many people pin their hopes to that one, but I would think that an honest look at the whole thing would force people to conclude that there is a legitimate question as to who got the most votes.  Everyone just so happens to prefer the scenario where their candidate got the most.  Either way, plus or minus 100,000 votes out of 34,000,000 is an amazingly dead even tie.  

    The fact that the districts where Obama won garnered more delegates per vote is either a statistical fluke, a matter of demographics, or a brilliant strategy on his part.  I really don't know (I suspect something built into the demographics, but I have no evidence), but in either event, I've seen nothing that indicates of any sort of fraud or foul play.  

    It's disappointing to lose.  Especially when everything was so close.  And without doubt, our nominating process needs a MAJOR overhaul.  But, I'm sorry, to say it was rigged from the beginning, is pure conspiracy fantasy.


    Parent

    There's a whole post w/146 comments (none / 0) (#64)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:44:31 PM EST
    that BTD put up just before this one.

    Parent
    eek! (5.00 / 6) (#30)
    by ccpup on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST
    you're echoing Pat Buchanan!  He said that Hillary was the Nominee of the People and Obama was the Nominee of those in Power in the Party.

    No offense, but I think you're both right.  And, really, how many times do you echo Pat Buchanan in your lifetime?

    :-)

    Parent

    Pat Buchanon is a victory for (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by masslib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:08 PM EST
    Hillary.  In 1992, he called her a "radical feminist", and she is :).  He warned she'd run for President, and she did.  But somewhere along the way, he became her preferred candidate of the remaining three.  Life is funny.

    Parent
    Pat gets lunch bucket Dems (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:17:58 PM EST
    including the ugly parts.

    Parent
    I've learned there are ugly (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by masslib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:10 PM EST
    parts of every voting demographic.  Well, we're all human.

    Parent
    andgarden, where are my "ugly parts"? (none / 0) (#93)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:36:35 PM EST
    You're not suggesting that I/we lunch bucket types have more "ugly parts", or different "ugly parts" than the 'creative-class', right? (I'm kidding you a bit here.)

    There was an interesting discussion here a few days ago about the over-riding relevance of the class that one identifies with.

    Meaning, some people start out on the lower rung of the socio-economic ladder, work their way up, but still identify with their class of origin (Democrats?). While others pull the ladder up once they get to the top and no longer identify with their class of origin (Republicans?).

    I don't know how that effects our "ugly parts" along the way. (Kidding, kidding again.) Just making the point that the class issue can get a bit dicey.

    Parent

    It's 2000 all over again (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:25:08 PM EST
    The media picked Bush because they loathed Gore and nibbled him to death.

    This year, the media picked Obama because they loathed Hillary and nibbled her to death.

    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.  In other words, it was ever thus.

    Parent

    Not to diminish racial battles, but (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:35:09 AM EST
    sorry, the gender battles are older in our American culture.  We do have to be historically accurate.  That is, if we define our culture as when the English first invaded here.  That was before they started to bring over African American slaves.

    It's just that we finally are teaching about African American history, so more of us know it, as you do -- but we still teach very little of women's history.  Wonder why?  Who would be threatened by that? :-)

    And, of course, we cannot ignore that for about 1 in 20 Americans, women of color, they battle both racism and sexism.  And, of course, most African Americans are (unlike Obama) from both cultures.  It's all very complex in this country -- and all a reason to realize that, while being historically accurate, it also is simply wisest to not make it a contest.  Racism and sexism stop our country from its potential greatness, period.  Fix one, and we still won't even begin to realize our potential.  We must fix both.

    Parent

    Until they didn't. (none / 0) (#113)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:09:23 AM EST
    Look, I appreciate thse historic significance of Obama's campaign, but it doesn't in any way diminish the historic significane of Hillary's.  Don't these people get it?

    Parent
    I agree that the media picked Obama (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by stefystef on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:28:33 PM EST
    Again the MSM trying to determine who should be in the White House.

    The problem is that Hillary won almost 18 million votes in a primary (no one has done that in the history of America) and she won the last primary, South Dakota, despite the fact that Obama was projected to win both last states (notice how the media covered it up) and despite the support of Tom Daschle.

    Obama has already peaked.  It's downhill from here.

    Parent

    exactly. (none / 0) (#33)
    by NJDem on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:15:27 PM EST
    Suspend don't quit, Sen Clinton! (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:34:50 PM EST
    I want her to take what she's fought hard for to the convention.

    I won't automatically support the Dem pick. If Dems reward Obama's cheating -- there's no other way to spin it -- and it's a coronation, neither individual nor party can expect automatic support from me.

    A month of Obama having to succeed on his own merits and talent against the Rethuggernaut should be interesting, and we'll be spared hearing a speech about how he's considering going for Olympic Gold.

    Ellie, see upstream link in comment #54 (none / 0) (#61)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:42:46 PM EST
    There's a story from Corrente that totally made my day. I think you'll like it.

    Parent
    Thanks! Today was a travel day (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:55:48 PM EST
    It's a little surreal -- the Dems' version of 2000 where we have to pretend that Bush won, and again in 2004.

    My lying eyes say otherwise, so it's good to know the Earth's spinning in the same direction as I left it, no matter what the Obama hagiography is saying.

    Parent

    And you think (none / 0) (#106)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:27:43 AM EST
    that having an election where it was widely known would not count, would provide an accurate representation of the will of the people?  Do you not realize that Clinton had significant advantage by name recognition (not to imply she didn't deserve significant support on merit alone)?  Obama's inability to campaign in those states and/or the expectation that they would not count and therefore not campaigning in those states left him at a severe disadvantage.  And you think that is fair?

    Parent
    I'm one of them (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Nadai on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:12:33 PM EST
    and I'll send her more to help retire her debt if necessary.  But thanks ever so for the "sympathy".

    Suspend and offer support (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by americanincanada on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:15:37 PM EST
    I am ok with that.

    I also agree that we should pressure the DNC to pressure Obama to accept those townhall debates with McCain.

    Obama wanted to be the presumptive nominee, let him have at it. I am sure we will see what kind of candidate he will be then.

    I guess this will be a clear signal that she does not want to be VP then?

    Candy Crowley said tonight (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:38:46 PM EST
    she will keep her delegates up to the convention but not to try to get the nomination. They are useful for other things.

    Jeralyn, intriguing... (none / 0) (#98)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:52:34 PM EST
    What sort of other things are the delegates useful for?

    Do you think she's just not going to seek the nomination unless Obama implodes? Or that she's not going to seek it even then?

    Parent

    Leverage for her platform, her issues (none / 0) (#134)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:37:22 AM EST
    such as health care, equal pay, etc. -- and now, I hope, leverage to clean up the corruption in the party.  I hope she takes that issue to the credentials committee, so we never will see the like of this corruption again from the rules and bylaws committee.  Maybe she even can get rid of Brazile. :-)

    Parent
    I see one dim ray of light (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by miriam on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:20:15 AM EST
    at the end of this.  If Obama loses (and I strongly believe he will for all the reasons already posted here for months, not the least of which being he didn't even get the majority of registered Democrats' votes) he will take a great many people down with him.  If we are unhappy with Dean, Pelosi, and Reid now, think about how unhappy we'll be in November when McCain wins over the weakest candidate the Dems could have fielded.  

    Think how unhappy the Senate and House Democrats who did not endorse Obama will be.  There will be reckonings for the untidy, underhanded way Obama has been foisted on those who did not think him electable.

    Then we may well be able to get rid of the craven, short-sighted, ethically-compromised and intellectually-challenged who have brought the Democratic party to the point where once again it will have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.  

    I want Obama to be a man, (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by gandy007 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:17:15 AM EST
    anydemwilldo.

    For me, he doesn't have to promise a damn thing.  He doesn't have to say he will push for true universal health care or any of her more enlightened policies.

    I just want him to stand up, with sincerity and say something like,

    "My supporters were wrong to vilify Senator Clinton; they were wrong to suggest that Bill Clinton is a racist; and I should have spoken out against it. Further I should not have countenanced the sexism that was so prevalent among my supporters.

    Perhaps one of the most egregious things I did was to denigrate the administration of a fellow Democrat whose term in office was one of the most prosperous and successful of the twentieth century.

    Worst of all, I was wrong to compare his tenure with the administrations of perhaps the worst president of all time and his father, both Republicans.

    Mea culpa.

    That's what a big man would do!

    I have a feeling (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:47:35 AM EST
    that even if Hillary stumps for Obama, BILL won't.  And I have no doubt that Hillary's supporters and many others will think Bill's behavior is fully justified.

    Parent
    BLOGCLOGGER: Fireback (5.00 / 0) (#131)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:34:51 AM EST


    He's at 10 comments today (none / 0) (#161)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:08:51 AM EST
    and been suspended. he can return tomorrow if he reminds me by email to reinstate him. He's a chatterer and limited to 10 comments in 24 hours.

    Parent
    from Tokyo to DC (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:13:08 AM EST
    I sincerely wish I could cancel my teaching and fly from Tokyo to DC to hear what she has to say and to add my voice to those who would like to see her take her bid all the way to the convention. I do not want to see this end like this. Everything about it feels awkward and uncomfortable to me. I feel like she's being pushed and shoved out.

    That's because she is (none / 0) (#148)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:09:55 AM EST
    conceding.... (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:27:41 AM EST
    My opinion, for what it's worth, is that ALL of this bruhaha about when she concedes could have been avoided by the Obama camp.

    Last Sunday all the media outlets were reporting that Obama wanted his movie-ending moment on Tuesday evening in Minn. But, at the same time the media was saying that the super delegates would likely give Clinton the respect she deserved and hold off until Wed at the earliest to put him over the top.

    Obama WOULDN'T allow Clinton to finish the primaries and thank her supporters Tuesday night after it all ended. She should have been given that opportunity. When she wasn't, the media ATTACKED her for what Obama and the super delegates caused.

    His spotlight for attaining the nomination did NOT have to be on Tuesday night. It could have easily been Wed or Thursday night. He would have gotten just as much coverage and maybe even MORE viewers with an event specifically planned for that announcement.

    But, instead, all day Tuesday Clinton was "dissed" by false media reports and then the final straw (to me) was Clinton super dels switching to Obama BEFIRE the polls even closed.


    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#1)
    by suki on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:43 PM EST
    does this mean she's suspending, or conceding?


    Imo (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:55 PM EST
    She will suspend and endorse.

    Parent
    I hope, (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by suki on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:46:22 PM EST
    I hope so too (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by melro on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:50:44 PM EST
    That is the smart thing to do (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by vigkat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:02:14 PM EST
    There still will be some exploding heads.  It's inevitable.

    Parent
    why should antone's head explode? (none / 0) (#154)
    by TimNCGuy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 09:04:18 AM EST
    John Edwards has only "suspended" his campaign.  He has never "ended" his campaign.

    Parent
    Or (none / 0) (#17)
    by Andy08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:57:55 PM EST
    "suspend and support"

    Parent
    sounds like an underwear commercial.... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by jerry on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:01:31 PM EST
    good one jerry.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by PssttCmere08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:23:51 PM EST
    LOL; yep (none / 0) (#49)
    by Andy08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:29:01 PM EST
    well, Obama might need some to deal with what's coming his way
    from the RNC...  ROFLOL
    They have already out a harsh ad about Rezko&Obama...

    Parent
    Can she endorse w/o conceding? (none / 0) (#57)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:06 PM EST
     

    Parent
    That Would Be (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:44:07 PM EST
    The ultimate flip flop.

    Parent
    How so? (none / 0) (#72)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:52:50 PM EST
    Because (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:33:10 PM EST
    You would be able to say that she was for him, before she was against him.

    Parent
    I mean it as a technical/roolz type query. (none / 0) (#97)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:45:56 PM EST
    I once whole-heartedly recommended somebody for a job that was subsequently offered to me. I took it; not because I had flip-flopped on the person I had recommended, but because I thought I was the better candidate for the job (as did the employer).

    I was wondering if Hillary has that option.

    Parent

    Her campaign says "express support" (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:39:21 AM EST
    not endorse.  And I find that wording very interesting . . . and wise.  Media can misstate it as endorsing, all that they want, but she has deniability if she sticks to "expressing support."

    Parent
    The (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by kenoshaMarge on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:25:59 AM EST
    media will misstate, spin, twist, obfuscate and downright lie about whatever she says anyway. She might as well do things her way and use her words. He11 half the pundidiots aren't smart enough to know what she talking about and the other half will tell us "what she meant" by what she said. Good lord we are terribly served by our incompetent and dishonest media.

    Parent
    Hmmmm.... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Eleanor A on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:53 PM EST
    A bit more notice would have been nice...

    A great leader? (none / 0) (#58)
    by masslib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:21 PM EST
    Hillary should be our nominee.  In the last four months, like Bobby Kennedy, she became the peoples nominee.  If Obama wants to become a great leader, the single first step would be including Hillary on his ticket.  If he wants to stop the hate he ought to start with stopping the Hillary hate.  He unfavorables are probably now driven by half of his supporters.  She's been embraced by the people.  She knows the ins and outs of Washington.  She has the better platform(most of which, he should embrace).  It's time to stop letting the media dictate our democracy.  He should run with the single best person for the job and that's Hillary.

    masslib, wow, that comparison (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:51:55 PM EST
    between Hillary and RFK was made today in a story at Corrente. I'm pimping it mercilessly, here's the LINK again.

    I had been thinking/feeling that same thing about how they both won over the hearts and minds to become the candidate of most of 'the people'.

    Parent

    Can someone please explain (none / 0) (#86)
    by fireback on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:14:30 PM EST
    Can someone please explain this to me. I've worked real hard on the Obama campaign.  And I'll admit I've had some real negative feelings about Hillary and how she has run the campaign.  Also, I can see how those who passionately support her might feel similarly as I do.  As far as I'm concerned though, none of those feeling have anything to do with either of their positions.  Pretty much everything they stand for is very similar.  So, I can't understand why Hillary supporters hate Obama so much.  Can anyone explain this to me?

    Okay, so you think Hillary was more experienced.  Okay, I'll give that to you.  So you believe she is the better candidate.  I would understand that in some ways, but the other side of that, coming from an admittedly biased Obama supporter, is that she is also much more divisive, unfair or not, in terms of the larger population.  Surely her supporters see that.  It seems to me that one has to consider that when they look at the term "better candidate."  For me, this was one of the largest factors in my support for Obama.  It seems to me that he has the best chance in uniting this country.  Is this premise wrong?  

    I've also heard that some believe that Obama somehow did something unfair in wanting a different outcome in the seating of Florida and Michigan.  But even that, I find it hard to believe any fair person would think seating either as they were voted would be fair to him.  In Florida, Clinton enjoyed the name-recognition factor while Obama never had a chance to fully introduce himself.  Surely one can't consider that primary fair to him.  And in Michigan, regardless  of his motivations in pulling his name, that primary wasn't supposed to count.  Does anyone think the results as they were would be fair.  Please explain where I am wrong here?

    So, I just don't get it.  This was a hard fought contest.  Things were said on both sides that weren't nice.  But surely anyone who steps back can see the politics in this and the fact that both are fighting for the same things.  Can anyone clarfy this for me?

    To quote Dr. Phil (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by Nadai on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:21:24 PM EST
    For me, this was one of the largest factors in my support for Obama.  It seems to me that he has the best chance in uniting this country.

    How's that working for you?

    But surely anyone who steps back can see the politics in this and the fact that both are fighting for the same things.  Can anyone clarfy this for me?

    Considering that dozens of posts here have been followed by hundreds of people explaining why we won't vote for Obama, I'm guessing that nothing we say will provide any clarity.

    Parent

    Good point (1.00 / 2) (#107)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:47:38 AM EST
    It's not working out so well right now.  But whose fault was that?  It was in Hillary's interest to polarize the electorate.  Of course I'm biased, but it sure felt like the Clinton effort was to create such a divide that his unifying message would be lost.  

    Ok, I was probably over simplifying it, it just seems to me that the problems I see Clinton supporters have with Obama is either Florida, Michigan, which we're not his fault, the sexists and mean attacks, which I have not seen from him, or the unfair media, which he is not in charge of.  I'm sure I'm over simplifying again, but the anger I see has nothing to do with a disagreement with policy.        

    Parent

    LOL! (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:01:05 AM EST
    You're a satirical genius!!!  Hillary polarized the electorate -- by running no doubt.  If that stupid beotch had quit, then we'd all have our very own "unity pony".

    You do realize that people have a right to run against your candidate, right?

    Thank you for making me laugh.

    Parent

    You just had to (1.00 / 2) (#116)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:33:00 AM EST
    bring it to some rude comment didn't you?  I won't go to that level with you.  Nice try.  

    Where do you get that I think Hillary should not have run?  There's running and there's saying, "no he's not Muslim....as far as I know."  

    You can disagree, that's fine, but that's how I saw it.  Either way, the point of the comment was to counter the previous one questioning my reasoning for Obama's support (unifying).  Just ask Rove, the best way to keep people apathetic and ununified is to polarize.  In goes to reason that if one comes attempting to get more people involved and unified, polarizing would be the logical strategy.  It was predicted beforehand that that would be the strategy.  There was only one person that would benefit from a polarizing strategy - Hillary.  That's my argument at least. I'm interested in any counters.

    Parent

    You're so much fun (none / 0) (#120)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:46:03 AM EST
    Thank you!

    Parent
    OK, here goes (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by daria g on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:42:35 PM EST
    It seems to me that he has the best chance in uniting this country.  Is this premise wrong?

    Yes.  Ethically wrong.  I don't believe in unifying the country.  I believe in democracy.  We disagree with the Republicans.  We disagree with the Libertarians.  As a Democrat, I don't want to unite with them.

    This "unity" is just used as a club to tell people to give up and start agreeing with you.  I reserve the right not to be unified.

    Parent

    As I have said before (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:03:40 AM EST
    Imagine 2000.  Imagine how you felt when Bush illegitimately won the election.

    Now, imagine turning around in 5 months and voting -- for Bush.

    That's about how we feel about Obama.

    For many reasons, from the press, from the DNC, from the RBC, this was NOT a legitimate election, and many of us won't vote for an illegitimately selected, less experienced candidate.

    Parent

    You don't think (none / 0) (#119)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:45:57 AM EST
    Obama played by the rules?

    Parent
    Obama became the affirmative action (none / 0) (#146)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:02:33 AM EST
    candidate, and I think the GOP will have a field day with it.

    Parent
    I don't see it that way (none / 0) (#118)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:44:39 AM EST
    Generally, as a Democrat, I believe our issues are morally and ethically right.  Half the problem is getting Republicans and Independents to stop and listen, instead of being played by fear and wedge.  To me, unifying is not getting everyone to agree, its having the ability to be able to approach the opponent in such manner where convincing is possible - and I think our issues are superior enough that the result will be a large majority on our side.  

    Parent
    Explanation (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by StevenT on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:01:25 AM EST
    Let me explain to you why you are wrong here.
    1)What Hillary is today is not the Hillary 6 months ago. She is no more divisive. She is now the champion of the working class, a fighter who never gives up etc. This long campaign has reshaped Hillary's candidacy and brought her back to her roots. So the argument of being divisive, etc is of the past. Just like Obama run a campaign of change, but as he became more well known, he became a politician just like all other politicians.

    2)As for Florida, it was not the democrats fault. It's the Republicans who switched the date. So punishing Florida for something they in no way had authority to make a difference is certainly bogus. Plus the Republican attached a bill about paper balloting. So the democrats had no choice but to vote for it unless you want a repeat of 2000.

    3)Michigan is a totally different case. DNC allowed Iowa, Nevada, NH and SC to go first. Michigan who had tried to break the Iowa, NH monopoly had stated that Michigan will not change the date unless any of those 4 states did so. And true enough, NH and SC decided to be funny and pushed their dates early. And with that NH became second again. The DNC decided not to enforce the rules. So it's selective enforcement. Not to say Obama teamed with John Edwards and Bill Richardson to remove their names as a strategic move to please the heads from Iowa, NH, Nevada and SC. 4 out of 8 candidates was still in the ballot, and campaigning was done there despite the rules saying no. So tell me about fairness and illegitimate victory?

    4)I do not have to say how the media has sided with Obama against the Clintons, how the 'fairy-tale' was being played to smear the Clintons as racist, the 4 page memo about severing black ties from the Clintons and many more coming from the Obama campaign. I was on Clinton's campaign and  i have to say anything that Obama did to us, it's fine. If the Clinton's campaign ever were to respond with the same tactics, it will become the 'Washington' way. Obama's team engages with the most unethical campaigning methods i've ever seen, from stealing lawn signs consistently to anti-Hillary fliers, i could go on and on. I was all for Hillary doing the same thing against Obama, but of course it all fell on deaf ears. Even the statistics has shown before Feb 5th, Obama spent the most on negative campaigning (more than Edwards and Hillary combine) and 2nd to Mitt Romney. So don't ask why many staffs and volunteers that i met are so so bitter.

    5) And finally how undemocratic caucusing can be. Remember that caucusing are not held accountable by the state and only to the party. And the party heads certainly hold huge influence in the process and such will take no action on the complaints received. Not to say Obama's team gamed the caucus as much as possible. That is certainly legit to me but i say why can't you just let the people vote the candidate of their choice in peace? And if there were to be any reform on caucusing, it will certainly not come from Obama as he owed the caucus leaders his victory. The results of the primaries in contrast to the caucusing of Texas, Washington state and Nebraska tells it all. And the people of Washington passed a proposition long time ago saying they want a primary. And so the Republican party allocated the delegates half caucus half primary. But for the democrats, none at all. Where is the will of the voters?

    As a conclusion i could go on ranting but it makes no difference now. Obama is the nominee and i certainly wish him the best. Our election map is supposedly game changing with Obama on the ticket but it's now no difference than 2004. I will certainly support Obama once Hillary conceded as i always had with the previous nominees and i do hope that we will still have a democrat President. Lots of work got to be done for unity sake as i had met too many people who will be writing in Hillary, voting for McCain or just spoiling their votes. Healing will come when the party embraces Hillary rather than demonizing her till now. I hope Obama will learn humility as this is what most needed to heal the party.

    Parent

    To be clearer (1.00 / 2) (#114)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:15:59 AM EST
    I don't blame her solely for the divisive campaign, the press surely doesn't help in how they take so much out of context.

    To continue with you other comments, on caucuses, I probably would have agreed with you before this election, but I'm starting to reconsider (conveniently I'll admit).  The reason why is based on my theory that Clinton enjoyed a much greater advantage because of the "name-recognition" argument.  Generally, that fact in politics has always annoyed me -  To have someone with a more known name has a greater advantage.  It seems to me that caucuses cut out that factor and give the truly ardent supporters greater say.  To me Texas supports my theory.  She won more primary votes, but he, being less well-known, particularly with Latinos, won more caucus.

    In the end, I hate that its gotten to this.  Truly.  I think Hillary caused, you think Obama did.  What are we to do?

    Parent

    Listen to John McCain's inaugural speech (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:05:30 AM EST
     

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 5) (#103)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:16:27 AM EST
    If there wasn't really that big a difference between their positions, if both of them want the exact same things for the country, then you guys probably shouldn't have made her out to be an axe murderer.

    You want to know what makes the other half tick?  Imagine you support a candidate who you believe has their heart in the right place and shares your progressive values.  Now, imagine that candidate unfairly smeared as a nasty, unprincipled race-baiter.  Would you feel much animosity towards the people who promulgated the smear, or would you be like "oh well, at least we share the same values"?

    Parent

    I would be pissed too. (1.00 / 1) (#122)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:53:38 AM EST
    I can only go to specifics for my own discontent with her, so I'd like to ask you or anyone.  What was Hillary's intent when she was asked if Obama was Muslim and she said, "no, that I know of" ?  It's like someone saying, "Hillary did not want someone to kill Obama, that I know of".  To me, it was an obvious attempt to play on ignorant fear of Muslims.  To me, it was really sickening.  Did I misread?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:01:30 AM EST
    For some reason, the interviewer insisted on asking the same question about Obama like 5 times, and Hillary clearly said no every single time.  I don't know why the guy kept pushing it.  Yeah, that one line looks bad if you take it out of context, but I don't know a single person who watched the full video and concluded "OMG, she's trying to hint that he might be a Muslim after all!"

    Indeed, if that were her intention, you'd have to figure out how she answered the question with an unambiguous no the first 4 times it was asked, hoping for a 5th so that she could take it all back and leave the door open.  It just doesn't make sense.

    It's no different from the RFK comment or anything else that people took out of context for political gain.  When you see that sort of thing happen to your candidate over and over again, thanks mainly to a hateful media, you tend to get really defensive.

    Parent

    I'll have to (1.00 / 1) (#133)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:35:20 AM EST
    go back and watch the interview, to be fair.  On the RFK issue, FYI, I know what she was intending to say, but I was pissed because it was so reckless to me.  Considering she referenced it 3 times, she should have known it was, all things considered. Seriously, 4 of the most influential figures in African American history were assasinated: JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X. She should have known the sensitivity of the issue.  I and many other's have been worried about Obama's safety since this thing started.  Knowing all the crazies out there, to even utter it pissed me off because if just made me fear for his life even more.  

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:44:07 AM EST
    That's why she apologized.  But the reaction, as if she had intentionally been looking to bring up the concept of Obama's assassination, was way over the top.

    You don't know how many people at this site felt it was the last straw when they learned Obama's campaign had been distributing Keith Olbermann's hate-filled diatribe on that issue to the media.

    Parent

    Hi (none / 0) (#167)
    by laurie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:01:56 PM EST
    You seem like a reasonable kid so I'll explain it to you. I think that you will agree with me that:
     Obama has often presented himself as a modern day heir to icons such as JFK, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King.
    This, for example, is a youtube link to the first Barack Obama for President 2008 TV Ad- watch it and you will see why many of his young supporters feel just a teenyweeny bit queasy about him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6MvT6hebDU&feature=related

    Personally I consider this to be subliminal suggestion at its best. We ALL at times have a feeling that Obama might be risking it, simply because of the strength of this video.

     BUT remember- we are no longer living in the fifties, nor is Obama in any way hitting out at the Mafia like the Kennedys did.

    America has CHANGED. There are already a  number of Black Mayors, Black Congressmen, and Black Senators.  Have they all been assassinated’

    Hillary TOO is risking it ALL the time.

     Unlike us, she personally knew RFK, recollecting his assassination in the 60s, did not necessarilt bring into her mind Obama's video.

    Parent

    Steve M, if I might weigh in... (none / 0) (#137)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:44:12 AM EST
    It looks like your interlocutor is not debating in good faith and may be baiting us for yucks.

    Nevertheless, I appreciate and agree with much of what you're saying :-)

    Parent

    I don't know if I can explain it (none / 0) (#91)
    by vj on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:22:38 PM EST
    If you ask Hillary's supporters they'll say they perceive more hatred coming from Obama's supporters.  If she'd won, would Obama supporters be ready to just accept her as the nominee and let bygones be bygones?  

    Bringing the coalition back together is going to take some effort.  Either that, or build a new coalition.

    Parent

    On whom is it more incumbant to make the effort? (none / 0) (#117)
    by gandy007 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:36:35 AM EST
    I too much hear the rot that Hillary should corral her supporters and have them go rah rah for Obama.

    Seems to me that he needs us a lot more than we need him.

    From your point of view perhaps not fair, but we consider ourselves the aggrieved parties, a good chunk of 18M people, I would think.

    So he needs to maybe show a little humility, with sincerity, not this canned crap that sounds like it was written by a bad sitcom TV writer.

    Unfortunately, I feel confident his pride will not permit that.  If the truth be told, I'm not too unhappy that he can't quite gut it up to do it.

    Parent

    Was his speech a good start? (none / 0) (#140)
    by Phoenix Rising on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:07:59 AM EST
    Or was his praise of Clinton too effusive?  What would "authentic" sound like to you, when given in the context of a speech before 17,500 people?

    The people of the United States of America need you a lot more than you need Obama.  The Democratic Party needs you a lot more than you need Obama.  Or Clinton.

    If you feel aggrieved, know that there are a number of folks in the Obama camp who feel the same way, though they are considerably happier knowing that their candidate ultimately came out ahead in the contest.  Everyone needs to step back, catch their breath, and remember that this was a primary contest.  Elbows were thrown by the candidates and their campaigns; unfortunate statements were made by ardent partisans, either in ignorance or in passion.  On Saturday - if not sooner - we need to turn and face the challenge ahead of us.

    John McCain must not be allowed to appoint more conservative judges, nor to continue spending our loved ones' blood without reason, nor to continue to allow our country to fall into ruin.  All of the Democratic candidates this year ran to create a brighter future, and the road will be much harder if Democrats are not walking that road together in the Fall.

    Parent

    In regards to Florida and Name recognition (none / 0) (#95)
    by jbradshaw4hillary on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:41:12 PM EST
    So under that standard almost every member of congress and a large number of local officals all won unfair election, because whether you like it or not a very large majority of elected officals in this  country are elected on name recognition.

    Parent
    I'm just saying (none / 0) (#138)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:46:38 AM EST
    it'd be nice if Obama knew the election would count before they had one.

    Parent
    Trolling, you are. (none / 0) (#153)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 08:22:16 AM EST

    It seems to me that he has the best chance in uniting this country.  Is this premise wrong?

    Yes, the premise is wrong.  We don't need to be united in sunshine and flowers right now.  We need a leader who will lead us out of Iraq and the bad economy, not a leader who...well, he really hasn't been too specific.  And saying that we need to be united in the first place denotes that there is division.  Where?  Along political lines?  Of course.  Racial lines?  Of course, but whose fault is that?  People are self-segregating, and blaming the problems on one race does nothing to solve the problem, and Obama has promised nothing to any community re: healing racial divides.  The only currency he has in that respect is his own race, but just standing there lookin' pretty only gets you so far.

    In Florida, Clinton enjoyed the name-recognition factor while Obama never had a chance to fully introduce himself.  Surely one can't consider that primary fair to him.  And in Michigan, regardless  of his motivations in pulling his name, that primary wasn't supposed to count.  Does anyone think the results as they were would be fair.  Please explain where I am wrong here?

    You are truly a laugh riot.

    Parent

    That tells me alot (none / 0) (#157)
    by fireback on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 10:43:40 AM EST
    The fact that you think those comments are ridiculous tells me a lot.  I always thought Ickes was just selling his side because that was his job, but you???  He was so unbelievably disingenuous to me.  Don't you think there's a reason why in nearly every state, early on, Obama was significantly down in the polls, only to rise as he began to campaign?      

    The rules may not have been fair, but they were set in advance.  Obama didn't make them and Hillary didn't argue them at that time.  IMHO, they should have thrown both Fl and MI out - as the rules were set before.  Because any compromise leaves room for people like you to say the method they used unfair or inconsistent with the rules (i.e. there was no way to come up with a rule-backed solution in MI).  

    Parent

    Fireback is a chatterer (none / 0) (#160)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:07:44 AM EST
    and limited to 10 comments a day. He's at limit for today and suspended.

    Parent
    WOW! Second Pre-emptive Strike Via AP in 24 HOURS! (none / 0) (#100)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:55:56 PM EST
    To me, they're sweating under the collar. Only now just waking from their delusionary stupor, they are quickly realizing how invaluable those Hillary 18 million voters are in the face of the right blitzkreig.

    Let him sink or swim on his own!

    No VP, Hillary should not compromise the stature she has gained. To do so, she will undermine her hard won respect for the sake of political convenience. All the Hillary haters will revel in it and keep driving those nails in her coffin nevertheless. Either way she will be crucified, so I say Go For It, to the Convention.  

    I think Hillary will keep her options (none / 0) (#104)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:19:09 AM EST
    per the rules and should the limping presumptive nominee make it to the GE, after August, I'm thinking by then McCain will have sufficiently called his inexperience enough he'll want to be  VP!  (o:

    she can still be nominated at the convention (none / 0) (#158)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 10:45:52 AM EST
    Unity trolls every where (none / 0) (#156)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 10:33:39 AM EST
    taking up all the space on the other threads. This is what I thought would happen

    all you have to do is point them out (none / 0) (#162)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:09:44 AM EST
    as blogcloggers or chatters and I will limit their postings and/or suspend them.

    Parent
    compensus is a chatterer (none / 0) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 11:05:08 AM EST
    and limited to four comments in a 24 hour period.

    All in excess will be deleted.