home

Obama Won . . . Barely

I understand the notion that the nominee must have the freedom to choose a nominee he is comfortable but there is a certain reality that is just being ignored about this contest. Obama barely won. By any measure. Even by the flawed pledged delegate count, and including the Edwards delegates, Obama won 51.4% of the pledged delegates. Clinton won 47.7% of the pledged delegates. On the popular vote, by the BEST measure for Obama, he won by 0.4%. This was NOT a landslide.

As Jay Cost writes:

Obama has won the Democratic nomination not because his voting coalition is larger than Clinton's. As best we can tell, they are of equal size. Instead, Obama has won because his coalition is more efficient at producing delegates than Clinton's coalition.

Now I know I will be lectured about the rules again, and how Obama could have had a bigger popular vote (I am still waiting for one example of something Obama did not do because of his delegate strategy that cost him popular votes) and the usual litany of reasons why this means nothing. I just do not believe that. This was the closest nomination contest in modern history.

And this has significance for November. People seem to want to pretend it does not matter. they have declared the race over since well, some since Iowa. So to them, this was a blowout. And when they are not telling us it was a blowout, they then like to compare this race to Ronald Reagan versus Gerald Ford in 1976, Jimmy Carter versus Ted Kennedy in 1980 and Walter Mondale versus Gary Hart in 1984. Let's look at those three races to see of the comparison holds up.

Here is Wikipedia's description of that race:

Although Ford had won more primary delegates than Reagan, as well as plurality in popular vote, he did not have enough to secure the nomination, and as the convention opened both candidates were seen as having a chance to win.

Gerald Ford, a sitting President, won the most votes and the most delegates by 52.6%-47.4%, and yet the race went to the Convention. There is no doubt that Reagan ran incredibly closely to Ford. this is a comparable race to the current. It went to the Convention. Ford eschewed putting Reagan on his ticket. He lost to Jimmy Carter in November in a close race.

Would picking Reagan have helped him? In my view, almost certainly. Reagan's adherents were incredibly committed to him and it seems hard to imagine that it would not have helped him.

Take for example the state of Texas. Carter beat Ford in Texas by 130,000 votes out of 4 million cast. Take away Texas from Carter and he is down to 271 electoral votes. Carter swept the South against Ford. Would Reagan have made a difference in Mississippi? Or how about Southern Ohio? Carter won Ohio by 0.3%. You think Reagan might have helped Ford in Southern Ohio?

There is a lesson there. Ford despised Reagan for challenging him and he let his personal feelings get in the way of what he needed to be thinking about - maximizing his chances of winning.

As for Carter-Kennedy, the comparison is absurd. Kennedy made a spectacle of himself by going to the Convention 600 delegates behind and having lost the popular vote decisively. Now nothing would have saved Carter from defeat that year but having a divided party did not help.

Now how about Walter Mondale-Gary Hart? It actually was not that close delegate wise, especially since Mondale had every super delegate locked up long before the race started. Interestingly, even then the delegate selection process was incredibly flawed. Was the Party divided? I guess on one level but Hart did not inspire passion and once Mondale chose a woman, any controversy was mooted. Of course the campaign got blitzed by Reagan, losing 49 states so there was nothing to be done anyway.

Now which of these three races most resembles this year? 1976 I would say. That was a Democratic year too. But it ended up close.

What's my point? My point is this - you think about winning first. And foremost. You take every advantage offered. You avoid every potential negative you can.

Barack Obama has a problem, imo, in that he did not win a mandate sized victory in the Democratic nomination. He defeated a woman with millions of supporters committed to her and in key states. If there is a reasonable argument ELECTORALLY not to pick her, then do not. But "Michelle does not want it" is not a reason. "Breaks the change narrative" is not a good reason in my opinion if you are going to pick some run of the mill pol.

Now pick a Brian Schweitzer and you can see the argument and the actual follow through. Pick Sebelius or Evan Bayh, then you are just saying you did not want Hillary Clinton. And that is a problem. For Obama.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

Comments closed

< NY Times: Hillary to Drop Out Friday | Hillary Event to Be Held Saturday in D.C. >
  • Premium Ads

  • Blog Ads

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

    donate to TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    I don't see how this works out! (5.00 / 13) (#9)
    by MMW on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:43:13 PM EST
    It's no secret I don't want her propping him up, cleaning up after him or in any way subordinating herself to him.

    But the things that he and his supporters have said about her, write a 527 ad against the dems. He cannot go with change and choose her. He has hung the Iraq war around her neck, he has denigrated the name Clinton. How will that not be used against him?

    I'm not lifting a finger to help him. I'm asking these questions, in the hopes of she realizing their is nothing to be gained by standing with him. She'll only be making dems like you feel better about choosing a losing candidate - in the hope that the one who should have been the nominee will carry him over the GE line as others carried him over the Primary line. Do you see a pattern here?

    He will lose the GE, whether she is with him or not. I prefer not.

    It was weird to see today (5.00 / 9) (#129)
    by abfabdem on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:30:16 PM EST
    Novak's column in the Chicago Sun Times saying the McCain camp sees Obama as the weaker candidate and then to notice a little box above the column with national poll numbers.  It showed Obama over McCain by just 6 electoral votes, but Hillary over McCain by 30--on the day the headlines are that Obama is the winner of the primary. What is wrong with this picture?  I believe we just got sucker punched.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm convinced we got sucker punched (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by gandy007 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:52:29 PM EST
    Not sure how this analogy holds up, but it does somehow for me.

    If it look like a xuck, it sounds like a xuck, and it acts like it's a xuck, it probably is one.

    Especially if it throws a big xucking egg in your face.

    [ Parent ]

    In addition (5.00 / 7) (#177)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:00:42 PM EST
    Gallup's national overnight polling shows Clinton STILL AHEAD of McCain while Obama trails slightly.

    They nominated the weaker candidate because they didn't want the Clinton's to win.  No fact to be clearer to me.

    [ Parent ]

    EIther that or (5.00 / 3) (#185)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:12:38 PM EST
    ratf*cked by the GOP.  Not that Rove and company would ever game a Democratic Primary system.  Like, say, by getting the Dems to disenfranchise Florida?  Or swamping red state caucuses?

    Nah, they'd never do that.

    [ Parent ]

    I think you should try to keep in mind... (3.33 / 3) (#23)
    by pb on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:47:23 PM EST
    ...that many Democrats don't think they've got a losing candidate on their hands.  Many of them are excited, and don't particularly feel the need to assuage any buyer's remorse you assume they have.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, that's the whole problem (5.00 / 8) (#60)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:02:01 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps they don't think they have (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:14:34 PM EST
    a losing candidate as you say, however, for more experienced voters, they will be looking for a vp who brings experience and knowledge to him. He wants to shine and does not want anyone who will "dull" his glow(?)!

    [ Parent ]
    I think that's right... (none / 0) (#102)
    by pb on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:36 PM EST
    ...although I worry about implicitly conceding the "experience" argument to McCain.  But that being said, if it's experience that's really important in the VP choice, there are significantly more experienced choices than Clinton.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes... (5.00 / 11) (#12)
    by Aqua Blue on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:17 PM EST
    and Hillary would have been the nominee if our Democratic Party were more democratic!

    The Party leadership continues to  cut off their own noses.    Pelosi/Reid/Dean decisions are baffling and not helpful.

    This election should have been a no brainer for Dems.   The FL/MI decision was a fiasco.   The pushing for Hillary to get out has flamed the anger.   One bad decision after another.

    And, Jimmy Carter could not get himself reelected,and could have helped by not further inflaming Hillary supporters.


    I'm Enjoying This Immensely (5.00 / 15) (#17)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:45:42 PM EST
    Most fun I've had in ages.  

    As I've said, I have no idea if Clinton wants the VP slot, but Obama isn't going to get an unfettered choice here I don't care how much Keith Olbermann screams.  Clinton has signaled she's going to do what is necessary to unify the party, which is to announce she's suspending her campaign.  She did that after talking to some of her biggest and most influential supporters (e.g. Charlie Rangel).  After this discussion, several of them just happened to make themselves available to reporters and just happened to say they thought Obama should offer the Clinton the VP slot.  Coincidence?  My guess is that they told her they would support whatever she wanted if she would suspend.  Why wouldn't they?  And I do think she wants to be asked.  It would make up for an awful lot of the smearing.

    Plus, it is very smart politics.  As you pointed out earlier today, BTD, all anyone is going to talk about is "will he or won't he."   Obama isn't going to be able to make this go away.  He isn't in a strong enough political position.  They can leak crap to MSNBC about how terrible Bill is, but that just makes him look divisive when Clinton has agreed to do what needs to be done.  

    If Clinton wants to be VP, she may very well get it.  Whether Obama wants it or not.

    But even if she doesn't, getting asked is a good thing.  Pressuring Obama is a good thing.  After all, if he really doesn't want her on the ticket, then what's he going to offer her instead?  If she wants it, perhaps he could change her mind by offering something else?  All those Senators and Congressman and party leaders anxious to suck up to him, surely they could put their heads together to come up with something that would make her happy and help make her voters happy.

    On this issue, Clinton is in the driver's seat.  If Obama and his supporters don't like it, then they should've made sure he won by a larger margin.  Otherwise, their complaining is only going to make Obama look weaker when he realizes the political reality and be weaker against McCain as they continue to anger Clinton supporters.

    They can either decide that they want Obama to be President, in which case they will try to make Clinton and her supporters happy.  Or they can decide that President McCain has a nice ring to it.

    I know, it sucks to win and still not get your way on everything.  Particularly when you're a child, as so many of Obama's most ardent and public supporters seem to be.  But you have to grow up sometime.

    The difference is (5.00 / 8) (#40)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:52:33 PM EST
    they didn't win, they tied.  Then the DNC broke the tie by favoring the weaker candidate.

    [ Parent ]
    True (5.00 / 4) (#179)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:06:49 PM EST
    But the DNC is allowed to pick the weaker candidate.  Hell, they almost always pick the weaker candidate.  The only reason Bill Clinton was able to sneak in is that none of the Big Dems had the courage to take on George "90% Approval" Bush.  If they had thought Bush was beatable, these same hacks would've foisted another Dukakis or Kerry on us.  They didn't and so their guys sat out.

    In any event the race is over.  For now.  The summer is long.  Obama will either get stronger or he won't.  Hillary isn't going anywhere until August.  Suspending doesn't mean she's out of it.  It means Obama is the presumptive nominee.  But the reason they're pounding the drums for Unity is because he's limping and his hold is tenuous.  This year the "presumptive" part has never been so needed.  So sit back and relax and let's see what the summer brings.  This campaign has been unpredictable so far, whose to say that's going to change now.  

    [ Parent ]

    I expect to be called a racist, (5.00 / 2) (#189)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:23:21 PM EST
    but Obama is an affirmative action candidate, pushed across the finish line by the likes of Donna Brazile. Without the penalization of FL and MI by the DNC, we'd be celebrating HRC's win.

    [ Parent ]
    BDB (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by kmblue on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:56:10 PM EST
    You are one sharp political animal.

    [ Parent ]
    Years Of Federal Service (5.00 / 11) (#154)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:42:48 PM EST
    I used to shepherd things though Departments and the inter-agency process for political appointees, throw in chairing some international meetings and dealing with Congress and it adds up.  I spent years outmaneuvering my own Department's folks as well as other Departments to get some policies through, some good, some meh.  One of the great myths is that there is only one federal government.

    How sharp a political animal I am, we shall see.

    I do know this, if X needs you - no matter who X is or who you are - then you are the one with the power.  Unless, of course, X can order you to do something and has some mechanism to follow through and make you do it (like the ability to fire you).  If that's not the case, then X is screwed because X has no way to enforce his will upon you.

    That's Obama's problem.  He won, but that only means Hillary will not be the nominee.  She doesn't work for him or anyone else in the Democratic Party.  She works for the people of NY.  As long as they're okay with her, there's not a lot anyone else can do.  That's not going to change even if Obama is elected President.  In fact, Hillary could cause him every bit as many problems in the Senate, if not more, as he could cause her from the WH.  Nobody knows this better than the Clintons.  Congressional Democrats made their lives hell.  

    [ Parent ]

    Obama's Arrogance (5.00 / 10) (#74)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:52 PM EST
    will prevent him from sharing the spotlight with any high profile candidate, let alone Hillary Clinton.

    To be honest, I'm not sure this was ever about anything other than Obama; not replacing Bush, not defeating the Republican nominee, not even about putting a Democrat in the Whitehouse. Since he entered politics, it's been about Obama and only Obama.

    From what the evidence has shown us so far, the concept of altruism is foreign to Obama!

    [ Parent ]

    Even More of a Reason for Her to Push (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:56:12 PM EST
    The more he doesn't want her, the more motivation he's got to offer her something else.  Something good.

    Or, if she's a petty person, the more fun it will be if she can box him in and give him no choice.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well said BDB (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by talesoftwokitties on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:03 PM EST
    I'm on the fence as far as Hillary - VP goes, but you've made some good points.  

    [ Parent ]
    I Figure She's Earned (5.00 / 10) (#158)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:46:06 PM EST
    the right to get for herself whatever she wants.  I can make arguments why the VP would be good for her and bad for her.  But she's been in the Senate and she's been in the WH, she knows the benefits of being a Senator and a VP.   So I'll support whatever she wants to do.

    Doesn't mean it will win me back to the Democratic Party, although  Obama and the party paying her real respect, as opposed to just mouthing it, is an absolute threshold for me to even consider voting for him in November.

    Although I'm never voting for McCain.

    [ Parent ]

    excellent analysis, I agree, basically a tied race (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:46:47 PM EST
    and what will probably be a close race in the general no matter which candidate we have. If either had any brains, whoever was the nominee would jump at the chance of getting the other.

    That's why I think Hillary is making a play for the VP slot. I think Hillary would be much better off not doing that and staying as a senator, but I think she's too much of a party loyalist. Funny enough, I feel certain Obama can't win without her and I really want her to run in 2012, but I actually think she would pass that up to ensure a victory now, even as only a VP. I'm sure Obama supporters will think I'm crazy for thinking that.

    Interestingly, I feel confident that if the tables were reversed and Hillary narrowly beat Obama in delegates, the press would be saying it's quite reasonable and historical that Obama not release delegates and only technically suspend until the convention. I think we may just have a double standard here. No, really. :-) I think that's a combination of sexism and Clinton hate.

    As an aside, and to separate from my emotions on what I want in this race for a moment, damn, this has been the best presidential primary race I've every seen in my lifetime. Simply brilliant politics. Even if I haven't liked some of it. Still brilliant.

    She would have chosen him in heartbeat (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:50:32 PM EST
    No question.

    [ Parent ]
    She essentially said so in March (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:54:49 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    She was doing that to try and get votes. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:59:48 PM EST
    Vote for me and you'll get both of us. And guess what, it was a da## good strategy and I thought "good for her" at the time.  That's what a pol's job is during a campaign -  get votes.

    Obama should take a lesson from her on this, imo.

    [ Parent ]

    She would have (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by zyx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:03:37 PM EST
    and I would have supported him as VP.

    I can't understand the Obama people who are against at Unity Ticket.  Do they want to lose nobly?  

    [ Parent ]

    No, they think they can pull it off (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:22:15 PM EST
    The mistake their passion for him for general approval.  Deep = wide, to them.

    And they make a very basic data interpretation error.  Because he came out of (relative) nowhere and had a steep trajectory in popularity, once he gets 'free' of Clinton, the upward trajectory will resume its skyrocketing course.

    We (or many of us) see his flatlining in March and decline since then as due to his own actions and background, lack of fitness for the Presidency, what have you.  We do not see imagine much that he could do to halt the decline, and certainly not resume the ascendency.  But they really believe that but for Hillary Clinton, there never would have been a flatline.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with this, BTD (none / 0) (#50)
    by kmblue on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:56:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I would think nothing of it (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:47:52 PM EST
    if only the caucuses weren't under such dark clouds of suspicion for being gamed.

    Had he won everything he did, and those reports had never surfaced, this would be fine.

    What also bothers me so much about this is if just 10 Supers had become concerned about Rezko today and withdrawn their support from Obama, he would be below the magic number again. I firmly believe he was pre-mature in his announcement, that he's gaming again.


    premature and gaming (5.00 / 4) (#173)
    by noholib on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:54:27 PM EST
    Yes, what bothers me so much is that essentially we've had two candidates battle it out neck and neck in the primaries and caucuses.  The "gaming" is the premature announcement strategy that Senator Obama has been pursuing since early on (early February if I'm not mistaken): to announce that the "pledged delegate metric" is the only one that counts, and that anything else would be illegitimate stealing.  GWB did essentially the same thing in Florida in 2000, creating a reality by fiat before the deed was done.  
    Imagine a different scenario today, if everyone said: OK, Act 1 is over, the primaries and caucuses.  One candidate is slightly ahead in pledged delegates. Now it's time for Act 2, when the "super-delegates" get to perform their job, that is, exercise independent judgment about the strengths and weaknesses of the candidates, and make a decision about who's stronger for the general election.  
    Alas, it was decided much earlier on that the super-delegates would not, could not, should not, perform that function, but rather that they should simply ratify what had already occurred in Act 1.
    And as noted, Senator Obama did win Act 1 only barely.  But that was enough this time with the current game and gaming.
    And since I've been too sad and numb to comment on other threads since yesterday, I'll take this opportunity to say a heartfelt thank you !! to TalkLeft for the past few months.  
    Also, I trust Senator Clinton to make a good decision and to continue to serve the public in a significant and exemplary way.  But I am just so very sad that we will not be calling Hillary Rodham Clinton Madam President this time around.

    [ Parent ]
    You Are Right, MMW (5.00 / 7) (#26)
    by nclblows on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:48:23 PM EST
    He will lose the GE, whether she is with him or not. I prefer not.

    I agree.  Totally.  

    I think we should actually develop a new party, really.  The Democrats have not been very Democratic, and we are going to lose the general election because of their stupidity and their misogyny.

    HRC will be much more useful as a senator.   Most VPs are never heard or seen.  Cheney was only allowed to do things as a VP because Bush was too stupid or too lazy or both.  You think Obama would let her take hold of anything and show him up with it?  No Way.

    RBC did cook it on Saturday: (5.00 / 7) (#53)
    by dotcommodity on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:58:03 PM EST
    if MI was included, Clinton won: Clinton +286,687 or with est. for caucuses - Clinton +176,465 - if all the uncomitted went to Obama, and no more it would have still been Clinton +48,519

    So those 4 measly MI delegates did rig this! They were trying to reduce the moral victory of her pop vote! Not gain her 4 delegates.

    Interesting analogy (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by Steve M on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:01:15 PM EST
    Reagan did, in fact, represent a wing of the party, one that some people didn't want to acknowledge the existence of.

    Reagan was never taken seriously as a candidate by the media, but he had enough voters on his side that he got the last laugh.

    A winning electoral coalition is a precious thing, not to be squandered lightly.

    It would be a complete 180 for Obama to pick her (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:03:26 PM EST
    as VP. He spent this whole primary season (except for now when he is trying to make nice) arguing that Hillary is the status-quo, that she can't be trusted, that she is a Washington insider, that she takes money from special interests, that she doesn't represent change, and so on and so on (even though they are similar on every single issue). And it seems to me that many of his supporters and people in his campaign (and maybe his wife) actually believe that. I think that this is the main reason why he won't pick Hillary- His most gullible supporters would be confused and disillusioned if he did.

    No, he doesn't want her because she'd be (1.00 / 12) (#94)
    by caseynm on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:46 PM EST
    a freaking ALBATROSS on the ticket.  Remember Vince Foster?  Remember Whitewater?  Remember Travelgate? Remember Monica?  Remember everything from the late '90s?...REMEMBER??

    As much as all of you folks on this site trash Obama, you forget that he never brought ONE of these issues up, EVEN one!!!  Do you think the Republicans wouldn't?  If you DO you are significantly more of a neophyte than you accuse Obama of being.  You don't think Hillary will bring every single milligram of Bill's baggage with her?  If so, you are totally deluded.  The difference between Obama and Clinton is that Obama didn't roll in the pig slop like she did.

    If you want more Alito/Roberts, go ahead, abstain or vote for McCain.  But please know, I will hold every one of you who does personally responsible for the fascist world our kids will inherit because you were so myopic as to not see past your prejudices.

    [ Parent ]

    Remember 18 million votes? (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by IndiDemGirl on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:29 PM EST
    And I'm an Obama supporter.  I just want to WIN, no I want to CRUSH the repubs this November.  ANd with his votes and her votes, well, yes we can.

    [ Parent ]
    I remeber winning (5.00 / 9) (#106)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:21:49 PM EST
    two Presidential elections.

    Perhaps you forgot.

    [ Parent ]

    caseynm proves my point (5.00 / 7) (#139)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:35:11 PM EST
    Since Obama spent most of the whole primary season arguing that Hillary is the status-quo and that she can't be trusted, many of his supporters (like caseynm) and people in his campaign (and maybe his wife) actually believe that. So if he did pick Hillary, his most gullible supporters (like caseynm) would be confused and their heads would explode.

    [ Parent ]
    Jesus Christ (5.00 / 6) (#111)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:22:49 PM EST
    Bill Clinton proved in the 90s that not enough people cared about that crap for it to swing an election.

    And really, Vince Foster? That story is a JOKE to everyone who would ever even consider voting for a Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    caseym apparently (5.00 / 7) (#112)
    by kmblue on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:24:27 PM EST
    thinks Hillary as VP is possible.
    And it is upsetting him.  Oh well.

    [ Parent ]
    Troll (5.00 / 7) (#113)
    by denise on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:24:32 PM EST
    This is what I hate the most about Obama supporters.

    I remember the 90s - do you? Whitewater? Travelgate? Vincent Foster?

    VICIOUS LYING RELENTLESS ATTACKS ON THE CLINTONS AND OUR DEMOCRACY BY RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS TRYING TO DEPOSE THE ELECTED PRESIDENT. A COUP D'ETAT THAT THEY NEARLY GOT AWAY WITH.

    You disgust me.

    [ Parent ]

    i thought your post was a joke (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by rjarnold on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:26:53 PM EST
    but since it isn't, and on the off chance that your stupid post won't get deleted, i'll ask you some questions.

    do you honestly think that bringing up vince foster would have helped obama?

    which would be a more effective strategy for Obama against Clinton: attacking her character by constantly implying she can't be trusted or attacking her by bringing up overblown scandals and conspiracy theories?

    and finally which is worse: attacking her character by constantly implying she can't be trusted or attacking her by bringing up overblown scandals and conspiracy theories?


    [ Parent ]

    Yes (5.00 / 10) (#121)
    by Steve M on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:27:33 PM EST
    I remember that his campaign never brought any of the Clinton scandals up, other than the Lincoln Bedroom, Whitewater, Hillary's futures trading...

    [ Parent ]
    He didn't (5.00 / 3) (#161)
    by Nadai on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:47:28 PM EST
    bring any of that up because everyone would have laughed in his face if he had - other than the crazed wing of the O Team, that is.  And really, I don't give a hard sh!t whether you hold me personally responsible for anything.

    [ Parent ]
    I heard of those (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:06:59 PM EST
    issues via Axelrod.

    In addition, those issues were played in the press over, and over, and over, and over again in the 90's.  Do you ever wonder why the media's trashing of Hillary didin't simply fold her campaign?

    It was because those phony scandals were all over the media in the 90's and NEVER AMOUNTED TO ANYTHING.  The public was trained to ignore Clinton scandals.  And they kept their training through this election cycle.

    So, please, if all you have is right wing talking points, and untruths, give it a rest.  I suspect you're very young and your parents were Republicans when the Clintons were in office. Am I right?

    [ Parent ]

    That convinced me, (5.00 / 4) (#187)
    by gandy007 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:15:05 PM EST
    out of sheer fear.

    The fact that caseynm is going to hold me personally responsible for the defeat Of Obama, strikes terror in my heart.

    On the good side, I will die a martyr.  At least I'm taking the bullet for Hillary.  Otherwise she would be held totally to blame for the fiasco.

    I can live or die with that.  I guess I'm still not going to vote for the Anointed One.

    [ Parent ]

    I choose to abstain and will abstain (none / 0) (#123)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:28:00 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I'm writing in "uncommitted" (5.00 / 6) (#176)
    by badger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:59:39 PM EST
    That's the same as voting for Obama, isn't it?

    [ Parent ]
    As for me BTD, listening to your (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:16 PM EST
    reasonings all the time I've come here has been an amazing process. I don't always agree with you, but your argument above is the most logical, adhesive, and sensible argument for this ticket. Unfortunately, Obama does not think like you for all the reasons that have been stated 1000 times!Perhaps you would make a better president than Obama! Third party, BTD?

    Do not underestimate Barack Obama (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:10:58 PM EST
    I know this is a popular sport here but he is a good politician, an incredible speaker and clearly his political organization was utterly superior to Clinton's.

    Time to give some credit there.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't... (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by Jackson Hunter on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:16:56 PM EST
    I don't if the MSM stays behind him.  For some reason, I'm not counting on the Russerts and Matthews tender mercies, and anyone who does is taking a gamble.  He will not be Gore-d for sure, they're not that stupid, but they have Clinton animus more than they have Obama love.

    Except for Olbermann and Maddow obviously.  

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    In November we are all (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:17:52 PM EST
    going to be counting on this.

    His is the ship that is sailing and his is the ship that will take us into safe port.  Or not.

    May the wind be at his back, for all of our sakes.

    [ Parent ]

    Here ya go again,imo he is (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:22:03 PM EST
    not a good speaker. A good speaker connects with his audience. He's so busy concentrating on his prompter, he never looks at his cheering crowds. When he talks off the cuff, he is slow and says uhhhhhhhh alot and then not much comes out. His political organization learned how to use caucuses better than Hillary, but to what end when those of us who voted that way knew it was underhanded. Listen again, the words are empty. Why did he send out copies of his speech last night prior to giving it....ego perhaps??

    [ Parent ]
    Hmmm.... (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by Jackson Hunter on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:29:30 PM EST
    I agree and disagree, I didn't watch last night because I was just too p*ssed, but he does give a good, formal speech (as does Hilary, she has grown in this election) like in 2004 at the DNC.

    But you are right that he is not nearly as good "off the cuff" and he did not shine in that last debate with Hilary.  In formal address, he's pretty damn good, but he needs to work on his less formal style.  At least IMHO.

    Remember, Gore destroyed Bush in that first debate, but lost because of "sighing" and "arrogance" that the media focused on.  Obama can be truly arrogant at times, so he has to be very, very careful about his likability in comparison to McCain, who despite being a regressive tool, is a very likeable guy with a great biograghy to run on.

    Jackson

    [ Parent ]

    Obama a mediocre speaker at best, IMO (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by gandy007 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:35:30 PM EST
    I would bet he has never tried a significant case in his life or probably even an insignificant one.

    He is shifty eyed. In my estimation he can't look anyone in the eye, and that would be death. A jury would eat his lunch and come back for seconds.

    On the other hand, Hillary is by any measure a much more natural and skilled speaker.  

    Only one minor flaw in my view. Although Hillary actually got much better, I thought her hand gestures early on were terrible.  Looked like she was doing moot court.

    As much as I love and respect her, it killed me to see it. I so much wanted to get somebody in authority and tell them so.

    [ Parent ]

    In Any Case (none / 0) (#143)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:37:01 PM EST
    He is as good an advocate of democratic values as anyone. The fact that he is talented enough to inspire a lot of people, not necessarily you or me, makes him very influential and a good person to have on our side.

    With Obama and Hillary running the country we will have super solid leadership in the executive branch. I think things are looking pretty good for November.

    [ Parent ]

    What values? Inspire people... (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by zyx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:51:45 PM EST
    to do what?

    I just read a biography about Obama by a Chicago Tribune reporter, David Mendell.  I have questions.  The book frames the questions.  You got some answers?

    [ Parent ]

    Utterly superior? (5.00 / 6) (#120)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:27:00 PM EST
    Or just barely.

    It's absolutely moronic to compare the two campaigns in this media environment.

    I can run a campaign with a bunch of pre-schoolers if the media adopts every single one of my frames and narratives.

    Couldn't you?

    [ Parent ]

    Media aside... (5.00 / 2) (#188)
    by Dawn Davenport on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:21:33 PM EST
    I'll give his campaign its due for its coherent and disciplined messaging, its astroturfing, its fundraising, and its top-down control and access to the candidate.

    Of course, these are the very facets of his campaign that convinced me he's just another politician willing to do or say anything to get elected, but there you have it.

    [ Parent ]

    Maybe up to February (5.00 / 4) (#156)
    by abfabdem on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:44:18 PM EST
    he ran a better campaign.  Certainly he did so with caucuses.  But after that he outspent her by significant amounts and still lost the majority of primaries.  How is this stronger?  He did run out the clock by refusing to debate after his awful showing in the Pennsylvania debate so that was a good strategy for him too.  Have we ever had a nominee who lost so many of the last string of state primaries?  It does not bode well.

    [ Parent ]
    two probs. (5.00 / 5) (#175)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:57:53 PM EST
    well three.

    The media adopted his talking points to pound his opponents.

    The press sat on explosive video tapes of his pastor until they were certain Obama was going to win.

    He faded away after he "wrapped" it up in the 10-0 run way back when. Even when he was outspending her 5 to 1.

    [ Parent ]

    time to give credit (5.00 / 1) (#200)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:21:24 AM EST
    His voting record -- and I have studied it at least in the Senate -- has not convinced me that he is much of a politician.

    Nevertheless, the first thing that draws one into Obama is his speaking voice. It is very powerful and very magnetic. It draws the listener in. It is a voice that is filled with confidence in itself and encouragement toward others. His tone and his voice modulation and control are impressive and reveal training and discipline. Words like "change" that have been promised by thousands upon thousands of politicians down through history, soundenly sound as if they had some meaning. It is a voice that makes vague generalities sound like monumental pronouncements. He won't give us full universal health care, but he has a great voice. His economic policies are wrong for the working middle-class but his voice is certainly reassuring.

    I fully agree that his political strategy was cleverer and more effective than Clinton's.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, he does have that right (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by Practically Lactating on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:07:18 PM EST
    I understand the notion that the nominee must have the freedom to choose a nominee he is comfortable...

    He also has the right to be stupid. I'll let Alcee Hastings finish the rest of the quip for me at the risk of running afoul of the site rules.

    I don't want to see Clinton touch the VP slot with so much as a 50-state poll, but it's obviously the smart thing for Obama to do.

    (I have a feeling I'll be invoking Alcee quite bit in the next several months.)

    Smartest if he offers and she declines. (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Llelldorin on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:27:55 PM EST
    It'd probably be smartest all around if he offers her the VP spot publicly and she publicly declines. I can't imagine why she'd want it—she's much more powerful as a Senator—but she's earned the right to turn it down.

    If he publicly offers and she publicly refuses, it'll forestall the otherwise inevitable media circus that'd ensue when he names someone else. (The last thing we need is the media spending a happy month reducing internal Democratic party politics to a supposed catfight between Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama. You know that's what they're dying to do.)


    [ Parent ]

    Heh (5.00 / 15) (#75)
    by Steve M on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:08:37 PM EST
    I'll say it again:  What kind of victory is it where the losers are energized and looking forward, and the winners are bitter and rehashing old fights?

    LOL, I was going to suggest some (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:10:45 PM EST
    anger management classes. Um, dude, like chill. Your guy stomped us in the ground. We got like no votes at all and you got all of them. There, does that make you feel better. Whew.

    Hmm, do you think the kool-aid is wearing off or something...

    [ Parent ]

    Hee! (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:12:47 PM EST
    Especially since BTD was a (tepid) Obama supporter, and has been trying to get people to accept Obama would be the nominee for weeks if not longer.

    Rehashing old fights that didn't even happen -- think that's a sign of CDS?

    [ Parent ]

    They beat Clinton, but they didn't crush her. (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:41 PM EST
    I think THAT was a big part of the significance of her speech last night. It's why she was grinning at "what does Hillary want?"

    [ Parent ]
    Is Obama smarter than my 5th grader? (5.00 / 9) (#77)
    by jerry on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:09:08 PM EST
    Now my 10 year old daughter isn't in to politics and her mom is a McCainiac.

    They watched McCain and Obama and Clinton at AIPAC, and at dinner tonight my daughter thought that Obama should pick Clinton as VP if Obama wanted to win and for the same reasons the rest of us are saying it, because he has half the party and she has the other half.

    So the question for Obama et. al., is, is he smarter than a 5th grader?

    I am curious (5.00 / 6) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:09:28 PM EST
    Did you even read the title of my piece?

    Did you even understand what the post is about?

    You need to calm down and either start thinking or stop bothering reading this blog.

    We do thinking here, not cheerleading.

    You know there are place for the mindless stuff you are looking for. You can go to those sites.


    we need an acronym (none / 0) (#86)
    by DandyTIger on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:13:13 PM EST
    for these guys that seem to be coming down from the kool-aid and are all angry. Or maybe just adolescent is good enough. Let's all chill man.

    [ Parent ]
    Saving Face (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:14:06 PM EST
    I think Obama and Hillary are both giving their fans space to chill a bit before they announce a unity ticket.

     

    o/t about RFK (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by caseyOR on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:15:44 PM EST
    I know we are all still feeling pretty raw about the RFK nonsense from last week, but tonight is the 40th anniversary of that awful night in Los Angeles. I've been thinking about Bobby all day. He was my hero. I was 16 in 1968. He was my candidate. I would have walked across the country on hot coals to campaign for him. Let's take a few minutes out of this current political battle to remember a great American who fought for so many of the liberal ideals we still fight for today.

    Obama and Dems still have to earn my support (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Ellie on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:19:56 PM EST
    I'm open to considering whether to support individual and party, neither of which inspire confidence. They don't want nor need my support, so good luck to them.

    Downticket, I'll look at individuals. If TeamObama and Dem leadership continue behaving like jackwads, forget about any automatic support in that direction. Sending a message that resonates throughout the party, and clearing Dems of their Republican makeup would then be more important.

    Letting the Bush admin crap finish collapsing during the next four years, and having the Dems party away from being blamed for it might be best. I think Dems lost the White House today and I'll be surprised if they have much of a Congress.

    Dems haven't represented me for nearly a decade so having none for the next four years isn't a big adjustment.

    The only difference is that the apathy will now be official, and mutual.

    With all due respect (5.00 / 6) (#118)
    by cloudy on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:26:50 PM EST
    Obama may have won the nomination but he lost the popular vote.  A lot of back-bending needs to take place to give him a margin of a few thousand votes.  I respect your call for unity, but what Clinton accomplished this year, more votes than any candidate in history, should be recognized.  She won.  You can win and still lose the nomination.

    This is a nitpick, but... (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Pol C on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:30:01 PM EST
    ...it's a pet peeve of mine when reading discussions of 1980. I'm not jumping on you, BTD; it's people like Rachel Maddow who piss me off with their selective discussion of history. The Republicans were far more profoundly divided in 1980 than the Democrats. Yeah, the Dem convention was contentious and the GOP one wasn't, but Reagan had to deal with a party split on the November ballot. One of his main primary-season rivals, John Anderson, chose to run as a third-party candidate and ended up getting 10% of the popular vote. In any other year, a situation like that would have been fatal to the split party. Carter didn't lose because of Kennedy, which people like Maddow seem to think; he lost because he was an incompetent, demoralizing President. Reagan had the albatross of Anderson around his neck, and he still managed to hand Carter his butt.

    Rant over.

    I've always thought (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by denise on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:38:52 PM EST
    a lot of why he lost is that the Democratic Party completely blew off the white working class through the 70s, just as they're doing now.

    [ Parent ]
    Why exactly are you here tonight? (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by denise on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:30:16 PM EST
    Is it your personal mission to lose Obama some more votes in November, or what?

    uuuhhhhhhhhh (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:32:52 PM EST
    sounds like someone other than BTD has a problem getting over Clinton.  Quite a little litany there, obsessed much?

    How's that GE going for you?  I've read several articles on Obama's GE strategy and I'm not even voting for him... how's it going for you?

    Obama has a GE strategy? n/t (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Valhalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:38:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I just have to answer (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:53:02 PM EST
    Why yes, yes he does.  He already has a team in FL.  The campaign is focusing not only on colleges but high schools aaaaannnnnnd they are combing through consumer marketing data. woohoo

    [ Parent ]
    What about '72 (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by cloudy on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:33:24 PM EST
    for your comparison?  Wasn't this the last year the Democrats nominated the loser of the Popular vote (also by a slim margin).  Or do we not talk about '72?

    You know (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by phat on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:56 PM EST
    I seem to remember a lot of people complaining about a 50 +1 strategy at one point in time.

    Tell me, isn't that what Obama just did? And isn't that his only option in November? Are people going to be upset about that?

    This is the closest race in modern history and it's the only way Obama could have won. I don't see how he can do anything different in November.

    Good History Lesson (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Deep Blue in TN on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:46:18 PM EST
    BTD. The problem Obama has is that the voter segments that supported Hillary are exactly those that the Democrats have been ostensibly trying to win back since Reagan got elected. And the problem is, except for Bill Clinton, the Dems keep nominating presidential condidates who connect very poorly with these voter segments. Right now Obama still seems disdainful of these voters, and don't even get me started on the attitude of his more fervent followers.

    Re Hillary as VP, it is important that Obama ask, it's the easiest thing he can do that would be clearly targeted at showing he gets it about these voters. However I also agree with Judge Hastings' remark quoted above that if he offers, she should not touch it with a 50-state poll. I don't see any first-rate politician having much fun as this guy's VP.

    For her I think she can just keep up her good work in the Senate, keep up all she has been doing to turn upstate NY blue, and help keep the NY Dems in line by occasionally threatening to come home and run for governor.

    Another reason is we really need those 60 votes in the Senate next year, and so for that reason I hope other than the Hillary ask, he does not pick any sitting senator, or even Dem governor. We need those people right where they are, particularly the ones who are doing a great job.

    I admit I'm still fuming, and I do feel disfranchised. Nevertheless, four more years of Bush-style policies simply are not an option from my POV. so I will be supporting Obama in the fall, and hoping that the Dem wind that's blowing is enough to carry him across the finish line.

    Thanks for reminding me. (5.00 / 4) (#166)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:51:42 PM EST
    If a sitting President can be taken to the Convention, then I don't see why it's unthinkable for Obama to go. It's really very close between the two yet it is talked about as though it is an affront to all Mankind.


    I reall don't care what's happens now (5.00 / 3) (#181)
    by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:08:57 PM EST
    but what I do care is when my blood starts boiling when I read the blogs of Sullivan and Aravoisis echoing each other gloating at the loss of a woman. Yes I know it is politically incorrect to point towards their sexual orientation but it is hard not to ponder on the psychology of these two who day after day exhibit such naked and blatant misogyny with complete abundance knowing that no one will dare take them down.

    If anyone wants to "unrehabilitate" these two, especially the racist, war-mongering misogynist Sullivan count me in. I am all for taking him down and exposing him for what he truly is.

    I'm with you on Sullivan. (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by AX10 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:28:24 PM EST
    Hannity is quite how should I say this...
    "normal" when you look at someone like Sullivan with his blind hate of Hillary.  At least Hannity attacked Hillary on her policies.  Sullivan has taken to ad hominem attacks on Hillary.  For him,
    it 's CDS.

    [ Parent ]
    hannity is a republican (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by tarheel74 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:48:27 PM EST
    he hates all democrats. He does not hide being fake sanctimony unlike Sullivan. Even now he tries to have it both way about the Iraq war.

    [ Parent ]
    I want her to be effective (4.88 / 9) (#11)
    by hitchhiker on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:44:04 PM EST
    in whatever role she plays.
    I want him to win.
    I want the media to stop talking about her as if she were dogsh*t.  
    I want to be able to listen to him without cringing.
    I want to be able to go to any progressive blog and feel at home.
    I want to thank TL so much for making the last few months bearable and often even pleasant.
    I want Bill Clinton to earn another fortune and spend it any damn way he pleases.
    I want the Democrats to deliver when they hold all the keys to the kingdom, just a few months from now.
    End the war.
    Fund embryonic stem cell research.
    Provide universal health care.
    Fix the earmark system.
    End dependence on oil.

    It's not that much to ask , is it?
    The two of them could get there.
     

    You got the wrong candidate... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by nclblows on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:50:42 PM EST
    End the war.
    Fund embryonic stem cell research.
    Provide universal health care.
    Fix the earmark system.
    End dependence on oil.

    It's not that much to ask , is it?

    That's Nader.  Not Obama....

    [ Parent ]

    If Nader Cared About Any of Those Things (5.00 / 3) (#183)
    by BDB on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:10:28 PM EST
    I'd hear about him more often than every four years.  He's more interested in himself than building any kind of movement.

    I may vote third party this year, but it won't be for Nader.  

    [ Parent ]

    I think Clinton could (5.00 / 8) (#39)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:52:00 PM EST
    but, I don't know what shows Obama is capable. He's deep in the pockets of the oil companies.

    His new politics didn't stop him from earmarking at least $100,000 back to his friend, advisor and supporter, Father Pfleger.


    [ Parent ]

    Beautiful post! (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:54:20 PM EST
    as well as succinct and on point.

    [ Parent ]
    There's not a being alive (4.88 / 9) (#35)
    by suisser on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:51:00 PM EST
    on this earth who could fix this one -
    I want to be able to listen to him without cringing.

    What he says, fails to say, how he says it, it's all a problem for me.

    [ Parent ]
    Here Is What I Think You Will Get (none / 0) (#163)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:48:17 PM EST
    Reduced troops size in Iraq and increased troop size in Afghanistan.

    Expanded S-Chip program

    Possibility embryonic stem cell research

    [ Parent ]

    Also, what Cost is saying (4.87 / 8) (#3)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:39:37 PM EST
    is that essentially the delegate selection process was gerrymandered to favor a candidate like Obama. Those inner-city districts with a huge number of delegates (think PA-02) were almost as much help to him as his caucus wins.

    Under Repub "rules", ironically, (4.85 / 7) (#138)
    by Nike on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:34:34 PM EST
    Hilary would of course have won these primaries. I find it remarkable that the Democratic party has, as BTD's post earlier today reminded us, such a long history of being extremely heavy-handed in fixing the outcome of their primaries. Democrats, as least the party rulers, are not committed to democracy and clearly do not trust their own voters. These are the people who invented gerrymandering, after all.... It's too bad, because the party's success rate is not such that it gives the rest of us a high level of confidence that when they wrest decisions out of our hands that winning is in any substantial way a goal of theirs.

    [ Parent ]
    I actually whipped out my calculator (4.75 / 4) (#151)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:40:33 PM EST
    last night. If all of our states had winner-take-all primaries, Hillary would today have about 2200 delegates assuming she won the states she actually did. (give her all the TX, CA, PA, FL, NY, OH, NJ delegates, for example, and things get interesting)

    [ Parent ]
    I loved Huckabee's comment (4.75 / 4) (#159)
    by abfabdem on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:46:11 PM EST
    Something like, "if he had been running with the Democrat's rules he'd still be competitive with McCain and if Hillary had been running with the Republican's rules, she'd have won already."

    [ Parent ]
    someone here posted this earlier (4.77 / 9) (#2)
    by Josey on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:38:15 PM EST
    at the Confluence...

    Hmmm, now we know why the RBC did what the did. She had over 100 delegates from Florida and 73 from Michigan. If he got zero from Michigan and both states had been able to seat with full strength, she could have added over 86 delegates and he would have lost 59. Hmm, that brings her total to 1725 and Obama's to 1707.


    He was not going to walk away with 0 (3.75 / 4) (#4)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:39:57 PM EST
    from Michigan.

    [ Parent ]
    But he should have (4.77 / 9) (#46)
    by Andy08 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:55:49 PM EST
    he certainly deserved so.

    He won 0 in Michigan : Uncommitted is not named BO.
    That was the fair outcome b/c that is how he chose to play it in January.

    The RBC had no right to name Uncommitted. It just did it becuase. the RBC chose to giving Obama the edge (and worse). It had no reason to other than favoritism plain and simple. Nothing else.

    [ Parent ]

    Look up "uncommitted" in the dictionary. (4.87 / 8) (#137)
    by daryl herbert on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:34:11 PM EST
    And you will see his picture.

    Uncommitted is not named BO.

    Join the church/quit the church.
    Mentored by Wright/hardly knows the guy.
    Rev. Moss is a great young leader/won't say anything about Moss.
    Pfleger is a good role model and endorser/off