home

Weds. Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:50:00 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Here's an open thread for you.

We got a new script implemented today that automatically closes threads at 200 comments.

Our servers cannot handle more than that, particularly when we have 10,000 page views an hour and everyone is refreshing the thread to see the latest ones.

All topics are welcome, with the exception we posted the other night. If you want to smear a candidate with anticipated right-wing attacks, you will have to do it elsewhere.

Comments closed

< Why Obama Won't Pick Hillary for VP | Hillary Clinton's Message On Endorsement of Obama >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Weds. Night Open Thread | 203 comments (203 topical)
    Hola (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Lahdee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:53:09 PM EST
    It's Wednesday and John McCain forgot it. Ate hamburger instead of soup.
    John, John, John, how will you ever remember which way to face in an in the round townhall?

    Torrential rain and thunder this afternoon (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by andgarden on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:00:30 PM EST
    here in Washington. I wouldn't want to be driving home in that.

    And tonight: Top Chef!

    Yay! (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by chrisvee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:30:05 PM EST
    I love Top Chef.  This season has been particularly good.

    Parent
    Antonia all the way (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:07:21 PM EST
    Hera and Athena are  mad.

     Carolyn on the VP selection, what is all that about, I missed the earlier thread.  

    Parent

    C'mon. Antonia is blah. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:11:02 PM EST
    Richard is inventive and he has that awful fauxhawk!

    Parent
    Antonia cooks from her (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:23:48 PM EST
    heart, I know everything she cooks tastes good.  ( I love it when people argue about top chef, as if we can taste their food)

    Actually, I like Richard and I like Stephanie.  Don't like the carmel and scallops gal.  Wowzers.  

    Parent

    I just get tired (none / 0) (#20)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:28:05 PM EST
    of her "I cook this at home" spiel. Think of something new!

    Parent
    I keep wanting to taste that peanut butter (none / 0) (#70)
    by BarnBabe on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:22:46 AM EST
    mashed potatoes from last week. Have to look it up. AND Antonia is gone. Lisa is still there. Some of the people this year REALLY had temper tantrums. She is one of them. When she crossed those arms, she dares you to dislike her.

    Parent
    I am addicted to Top Chef (none / 0) (#204)
    by massdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:27:22 AM EST
    But the caramel and scallop fiasco was created by Dale - unless you were refering to him when you said gal - then, nevermind.

    Parent
    I am addicted to Top Chef (none / 0) (#205)
    by massdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:29:15 AM EST
    but the butterscotch and scallop fiasco was created by Dale - unless you were refering to him as a gal, then nevermind.

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#206)
    by massdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:30:12 AM EST
    for the double post - I'm new to how the "internets" work

    Parent
    I'm rooting for Stephanie. n/t (none / 0) (#19)
    by chrisvee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:27:42 PM EST


    Parent
    You and my wife. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Artoo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:45:19 PM EST
    I'm rooting for anyone but Lisa. I could have a woman as Top Chef. Just not THAT woman. ;)

    Too soon?

    Parent

    Spouse and I are watching (none / 0) (#15)
    by Rhouse on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:20:50 PM EST
    "So You Think You Can Dance". She used to belly dance for a living in college and loves dance of all kinds.  As for me, well I've always loved a good Broadway musical song and dance number, Gene Kelly anyone?  

    Parent
    Ha! This is my usual summer reality (none / 0) (#65)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:20:52 AM EST
    show too!  I love watching the dancers try to dance in styles they aren't used to.  Last season was really entertaining, as was the season before that.  (Season One wasn't that interesting.)

    Parent
    Not if you live in the Washington suburbs (none / 0) (#69)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:22:45 AM EST
    Most of us don't have power and many won't have it for days.  

    Parent
    Now just get the script (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ding7777 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:20:26 PM EST
    to automatically create a new post (:

     

    Hillary (5.00 / 7) (#7)
    by Polkan on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:48:25 PM EST
    Yesterday Barack Obama secured the votes for the nomination.  

    One second later, the media keeps talking about Hillary. Needs time, wants to be VP, Bill won't pass "vetting", supers ordered her to quit, bargining chips, on and on.

    It dawned on me that they have nothing really to talk about when it comes to Obama, except for a brief nod to history-making nomination.

    Hating Hillary seems so much more pleasurable than loving Obama.

    Can someone tell me why?

    I think they're jealous. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:18:27 PM EST
    Most of them don't have the guts to take a risk. They know they would never have survived what she did when Bill was prez. I don't know what they're gonna do if she drops out. They'll have to find someone new to hate on.

    Parent
    I'm starting to think (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by Polkan on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:26:18 PM EST
    that the real reason is more prosaic. I really think they would have nothing to talk about, frankly, and perhaps Hillary-hate is more of a stereo-type

    Parent
    and it is laziness too (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:31:30 PM EST
    pure and simple

    Parent
    I kinda think they're obsessed w/ her. (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:34:22 PM EST


    Parent
    They could talk about this: Riverdaughter (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by itsadryheat on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:51:17 AM EST
    has up an interesting set of figures.  If Fl and Mi had been restored as had been long promised by both Dean and Obama....until lately , then the pledged delegate count at the end of the Primary phase would have been Hillary 1725 and Obama 1707.  And, of course she would have the popular vote.  

    He would have only been ahead in the superdelegates, so she would have won both primary metrics and he would have the lead in the anticipated, but not yet cast convention vote.

     But then if people had known she had actually won the primary season they would have voted for her in the convention, right?

     Now we see just how inmportant the Saturday night massacre was. It was the nomination...unless we think that she could have won pledged AND popular and still had it take away from her by the Obama supporters among the leadership.  What a crock...

    Parent

    This number (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:13:43 AM EST
    is apparently arrived at by seating Clinton's Florida delegates fully, while given the Obama delegates half votes. Otherwise, how would he be down 59 delegates in total?

    Add those delegates, and it becomes an even, though contrafactual, race.

    Parent

    the real liberal agenda (none / 0) (#25)
    by diogenes on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:33:52 PM EST
    Sam Nunn or other conservative Southern/Western folks would do as much or more as Hillary to bring in white blue collar folks.  Any number of potential VP's have more experience, especially in foreign policy.  Trouble is, they're conservative.

    Parent
    Nervous about the south? (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Salo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:53:36 PM EST
    Nothing can help Obama down thar

    Parent
    personally i don't think the veep really (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:45:48 AM EST
    has that much influence. of course care in selection can be helpful. but it won't win any campaigns.

    as to the media, well they suck pure and simple. most of them don't have a clue what a real reporter does. we are better informed that they are so why should i watch them? my real dislike of them comes from their screwing up at least doing a minimal job at reading a telepromter and giving out information. the american public is poorly informed and thinks they are geez really are. today i had a discussion i have avoided with my sister regarding obama. she is in the tank. first i heard that no he didn't diss hillary with a bird. yes he did i responded. then she started in about michigan and florida. after i did a response with all the particulars about sc and the other states that jumped the gun with references to the floria legislature, etc. she backed away saying she was tired and couldn't really think to respond. of course i won the discussion and lost the war with her. she isn't going to change her mind due to the bull she has been fed. she thinks she is well informed but no she isn't. i want people to have the tools to be able to do critial thinking. color me disillusioned. to inform people seems to be the last the media wants to do. gee, then they wouldn't be able to so easily fool people then could they.

    Parent

    Sam Nunn (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:57:38 AM EST
    equals "change"?

    HAHAHAHAHAHA.

    Parent

    Many don't like Sam Nunn. (none / 0) (#29)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:36:10 PM EST
    Goes back to the nineties and Bill.

    Parent
    Rezko casting shadow on presidential race (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by Josey on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:31:49 PM EST
    Chicago Tribune --
    http://tinyurl.com/69aafz

    It's obvious why the media is still in Hillary-hate mode.

    Parent

    OMG you are right!! (5.00 / 0) (#60)
    by abfabdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:19:38 AM EST


    Parent
    Because there's not much to love (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:20:43 AM EST
    About Obama?

    Parent
    The media loves his sermons (5.00 / 0) (#78)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:27:07 AM EST
    His sermons make their legs tingle.  They fell in love with Obama, and like anyone newly and deeply in love, they don't care about the reality of their chosen one.  They will just get angry at anyone who points out any flaw in their chosen love.  They will defend their choice, regardless.  Think of teenagers in love.  Apply that to the media's love of Obama.  Same thing.  

    Parent
    Just read this comment over (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by samanthasmom on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 07:57:45 PM EST
    at the Confluence

    Hmmm, now we know why the RBC did what the did. She had over 100 delegates from Florida and 73 from Michigan. If he got zero from Michigan and both states had been able to seat with full strength, she could have added over 86 delegates and he would have lost 59. Hmm, that brings her total to 1725 and Obama's to 1707.

    If they had given Obama his MI delegates as "uncommitted" he would have had to wait until the convention to collect them.

    Does this make sense?

    And, let's NEVER forget that the primary (5.00 / 5) (#34)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:44:53 PM EST
    Concern in this was making sure that nothing was done to make Obama supporters feel that Hillary STOLE the nominaton from him.

    So, just keep your perspective. We need to be grateful that Obama has not had his historic nomination compromised.

    PUMA.


    Parent

    It reminds me too much of the Supreme Court (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by abfabdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:22:06 AM EST
    deciding the way they did in 2000 because they were concerned with how it would look for Bush--I don't remember the exact wording.

    Parent
    Yes, it makes sense: We wuz robbed (5.00 / 12) (#46)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:20:45 PM EST
    by a corrupt party, and that always makes sense to those who benefit from corruption.  And if they get their way, we will have a corrupt president.

    And that will be "change" from the current administration because. . . ?

    They will have to get to the White House with my help.  I was outraged by Watergate, I was outraged by Election 2000, and much more -- but nothing, nothing approached my outrage Saturday . . . and again tonight.

    I am done being a good girl about it.  This is war.  And the Dem party is now my enemy.

    Parent

    House of Dem still has good timber, siding (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:23:27 AM EST
    But the insiders have mistaken my presence and genuine efforts to maintain it for domestic service.

    They can clean up after themselves. I've propped up the Dems long enough.

    I'll be watching the flameout as an Independent.

    Sen Clinton should be the Dem nominee for President were it not for the political ambitions of perma-losers like Donna Brazile hitching their millstones to Obama.

    The way I see it, they have nothing to impel them forward in Obama, nor voters such as myself -- 1 of 18million -- to push them forward.

    Let's see what happens when that train doesn't even leave the station.

    Parent

    I truly believe (5.00 / 5) (#84)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:31:44 AM EST
    that Pelosi et al. believe that the only thing standing in the way of unity is that the SBWQ.  I believe she doesn't realize that the only thing keeping Hillary supporters from completely going ballistic is that Hillary hasn't conceded yet.

    Ex-Democrats have already started forming PAC's just waiting to go.  It may be that the 527 damage won't all come from the right...

    Parent

    Sorta (none / 0) (#62)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:19:56 AM EST
    I mean, the media had no problem crediting him with superdelegate endorsements, even though those don't become "official" until the convention.  So provided everyone understands the "uncommitted" delegates actually support Obama, which is pretty much how the MI Democratic Party arranged things, I don't see why the media couldn't have counted them in Obama's column.

    I mean, the 55 uncommitted delegates are real human beings.  There's no reason a reporter couldn't have called them up, confirmed that they all intend to vote for Obama, and counted them just like they count superdelegates.

    Parent

    Be afraid ... be VERY afraid (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:54:09 AM EST
    I imagine a considerable number, and downticket Dems, are afraid of what being on the business end of X-million of the 18 million voters who support Sen Clinton will feel like.

    The tangible ouch-factor is likely far greater than being crushed, say, under a rhetorical Brazile mama.

    Parent

    That calculations forgets (none / 0) (#74)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:24:10 AM EST
    to double Obama's Florida delegates (while understating Clinton's gain). He would lose 27.5, she would gain 91, if my math is correct. 1730 vs 1738.5 if your delegate totals are correct.

    Parent
    As noted elsewhere (none / 0) (#163)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:15:43 AM EST
    this is arrived at by seating Clinton's delegates fully, but giving Obama's delegates half votes.

    And repeated ad infinitum by people who do not care to do the math.

    Parent

    oops (none / 0) (#166)
    by Lesser Dane on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:20:50 AM EST
    Sorry for rebutting the same comment twice. Still getting used to the comment system here ...

    Parent
    Hillary won the Primary Season and is the (none / 0) (#164)
    by itsadryheat on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:16:55 AM EST
    leader to be the nominee, unless "supers take it away from the will of the people". Where did we hear that before?  The committee made up of Hillary supporters, obama supporters and "undeclared who all voted for Obama and were never undeclared to start with".

     Hillary supporters could have called a quorum among themselves and held a meeting and voted, it they had the character of the others.

    Now the supers are being harrassed by Dean and Pelosi and Reid.  Dean holds power over DNC supers' jobs and the others control committee assignments, floor votes, amendments, calendar and other stuff that make or break a congresscritter's career.  Don't I recall that that is illegal...people in power over other people's jobs coercing and "sternly strongly unrging" people under their power to give up some right or protection, telling them a vote to be taken in SECRET in 80 days must be decided, publicly revealed now and it better not be a "disappointing" vote.  Pelosi who first said she would vote California's choice.  Then it was the winner of the pledged delegates.  Then it was the winner of the RBC theft. And then, before any complaint could rise, any numbers could be understooda and talked about, the rest had to vote to make it look legit, and quick.

    Democrats used to be proud of the values and the legislation fought for and won to protect workers in the workplace form improper coersion from people holding power over their jobs.

      What the hell has happened to us.  They should have never dreamed they could get away with that nor dared suggest it behind closed doors.  They shouted it in the media that they were engaged in workplace harrassment as defined in our own laws as  a crime.


    Parent

    Richardson is on CNN with Larry (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:13:20 PM EST
    He still makes me sick.  

    So, don't watch (none / 0) (#24)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:32:25 PM EST
    You want Larry King to get ratings for his slimey network? They will never change their reporting if we keep them rich off whatever they want to do.


    Parent
    You know (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:21:30 AM EST
    Unless your household happens to be tracking its viewing for Nielsen, no one actually knows what channel you're watching.  You're not making CNN any money.

    Parent
    If you have Comcast DVR (none / 0) (#85)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:34:50 AM EST
    yes, they can and do track you.

    Parent
    You under estimate those little black cable boxes (none / 0) (#116)
    by ChuckieTomato on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:07:44 AM EST


    Parent
    Larry King (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:23:36 AM EST
    amuses me because he gets upset at the babbling talking heads and yells at them to be quiet.

    Parent
    I did switch (none / 0) (#28)
    by bjorn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:35:13 PM EST
    I could not listen to him try to persuade Larry he was not lobbying for the VP position

    Parent
    Even I'm hoping the same. (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:38:03 AM EST
    Poor Richardson went out on a limb to trash Hillary and her husband all in the hope that he would be made the Veep. Its time Obama delivers somebody's hope.

    Parent
    Good call (none / 0) (#31)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:39:08 PM EST
    :) I've lost my ability to stomach numerous politicians this primary cycle.

    I find I'm a much happier person all around when I don't watch those idiotic, empty of facts, blood pressure raising pundits.

    Next, I'll be cutting my cable.


    Parent

    Obama's VP? (none / 0) (#80)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:29:27 AM EST
    Is that why Richardson is on Larry King?  

    Parent
    Has anyone seen a list of the super-d's (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:14:10 PM EST
    that came out for him to put him over the top? Supposedly the AP had to talk to them by phone and they wouldn't come out publicly. The AP was pretty bad with their fake stories yesterday so I'm wondering if there is any back-up.

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#27)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:34:31 PM EST
    I didn't hear many names announced, and didn't actually even hear how many were supers vs. what he got from SD and MT.

    Rahm Emmanuel announced for him this morning, though.


    Parent

    I heart Rahm called Hillary first. (none / 0) (#44)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:26:33 PM EST


    Parent
    Did ya'll see that McCain mentioned (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:25:42 PM EST
    debating with Obama and the assasination of JFK in the same paragraph and nobody said a word about it? Nothing, no outrage, just crickets. Go figure.

    How do those two topics (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:36:19 PM EST
    find a way into the same paragraph?

    Did you also hear that Obama said he wanted the same debate format as he had with Hillary?! Heh, he needs to be able to fall back on that "what s/he said" argument he's so good at...especially since it worked!!

    Parent

    Does Obama want the same pillow (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:22:21 PM EST
    too?  Won't he be surprised when he finds out that's over, all over now.  Media love McCain.

    Parent
    Media loves McCain? (none / 0) (#82)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:30:47 AM EST
    Not nearly as much as they love Obama.  

    Parent
    that ended last nite (none / 0) (#95)
    by doberman pinche on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:43:29 AM EST
    this is a whole new game which will be very painful to watch.

    Parent
    Nope, they're in love (none / 0) (#128)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:20:13 AM EST
    The NY Times, the WaPo, Chris Matthews, Olberman, will remain in love with Obama.  They chose him, they're in love with him and desperately want to see him in the White House.  

    Parent
    They enjoyed bashing Clinton more -- (none / 0) (#137)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:33:01 AM EST
    Wait until they have to affirmatively defend Obama's actual record and merit and swab up whatever Michelle Obama lets loose on the campaign.

    The real muck hasn't even hit the airwaves at full speed yet. Hillary didn't MAKE Obama go to Wright's congregation or jump in with Rezko.

    Obama's stuff's not going away. It's only been mined to go off whenever the same dirtbags that have been using BO's Media BFFs for decades.

    Parent

    You mean Obama will now agree to debate? (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by abfabdem on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:24:23 AM EST
    Snark.

    Parent
    He was saying that JFK and Goldwater(?) (none / 0) (#33)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:42:21 PM EST
    had agreed to debate in a certain format in 1964 before JFK was assasinated in 1963. He was talking about he and Obama debating this summer.

    Parent
    Ahhh.... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:49:05 PM EST
    and, you're right. The media really missed their opportunity 'cause that was just as full of meat as what Hillary said in her RFK comment.

    Oh, wait, Hillary had said the same thing months earlier, but they didn't need it until last week. You can expect the video of McCain's comment to surface on October 29th.


    Parent

    Yes! The October surprise! (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:59:19 PM EST
    And the Repubs will say "This is it? That's all you got? Pfft."

    Parent
    I heard that Obama wanted (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:43:25 AM EST
    something more like the historic Lincoln-Douglas debates.  I have to assume they were more like speeches since Karl Rove said that that particular format favored Obama's "style."  

    Did Lincoln or Douglas have a teleprompter?  

    I love that McCain keeps making these suggestions though.  Today he said that he and Obama should fly on the same plane - so they would create a smaller carbon footprint.  Ha!  

    Parent

    That is the (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:46:12 AM EST
    debate Hillary challenged him with and he refused. It will give him more time to recycle his pre-written speeches against McCain.

    Parent
    Obama had better be very careful following (none / 0) (#185)
    by DeborahNC on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:14:08 AM EST
    McCain's lead. He could depend on Hillary's facts to be accurate, but if he falls in line with McCain's "facts," he's entering precarious territory.

    Wonder if the media would even report it if Obama quoted McCain's inaccurate information. They're so in love with both of them, they'd probably would let it slide.

    Parent

    Did McCain refer to JFK assassination on purpose? (none / 0) (#144)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:42:41 AM EST
    How could that be a coincidence? I think he referenced the JFK assassination for the express purpose of calling Axelrod's and Obama's bluff.

    It was a taunt. McCain is signaling, loud and clear, "Don't f*ck with me fellas!". And they didn't dare, did they. Nor will they come November. They have a lot less ammo now that the liberal-guilt dog won't hunt.

    Parent

    McCain will be able to do (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:57:05 AM EST
    a lot of things Hillary couldn't do since she and Obama were on the same team.  

    McCain probably won't have to defend all the "you're a racist" stuff either since I don't think Republicans care about that stuff and the disenchanted Democrats and Indies have already been called that.  

    It's going to be fun to see how the Obama team can deflect any of this.  So far, it seems they are limited to telling John "No" whenever he proposes something.  Heh.  

    Parent

    I will do one positive political (5.00 / 10) (#21)
    by Stellaaa on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:30:05 PM EST
    thing each week, so that I do not become bitter and clingy.  
    Today I increased my Emily's list donation and sought information from the Green Party to work at the local level.  

    Nader's party? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:58:43 PM EST
    At least this time, Nader will be right. It isn't his fault if the democrats picked a candidate who couldn't give them a win.

    Parent
    Funny, this may be Nadar's (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by zfran on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:23:56 PM EST
    year. HA wouldn't that be funny!!

    Parent
    he's got a cool (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:09:06 PM EST
    running mate, a former public defender who really is liberal and a proven winner with those who want "change." But I'm not a third party person and I'm not a Nader fan.

    Parent
    I'm not a third party fan... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:09:40 AM EST
    ...(purely for practical reasons) and I don't particularly like Nader's refusal to see the stark contrasts between the parties on issues, but he spoke at my law school and he was very good.  

    Parent
    nadir (none / 0) (#192)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:37:35 AM EST
    Nader stole votes from Gore. THAT I will not forgive him for.

    Parent
    matt gonzales (none / 0) (#93)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:42:45 AM EST
    i hope we hear more from him, or folks like em

    Parent
    please join me in the newly (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by doberman pinche on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:25:31 AM EST
    resurrected "Women's Party" as soon as I figure out how to resurrect it.


    Parent
    women's party (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by noholib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:47:41 AM EST
    Despite all the sadness and bitterness felt right now, I certainly don't want the Republicans to continue to run this country, so I wouldn't consider voting for Republican-nominee Senator McCain at all. But yes, I would love to figure out a way to get the energy and passion of women translated into a new political force. Whatever happens in November, there is a lot of destructive rampant sexism and misogyny to fight.  Maybe we can do it better in the future now that Senator Clinton is said to have developed a deeper understanding of these issues through this campaign.  I just read on another thread that one of the NBC knuckleheads Brian Williams brought up the issue of emasculation tonight!!  Rousseau voiced the fear perfectly in the mid-18th century: the fear that if women entered public life, then men would be un-manned.  We've not come a long way, have we baby?

    Parent
    I admire your generosity (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by Jane in CA on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:38:41 AM EST
    but I will never donate to Emily's List again.  

    I don't want a single cent of mine to go to the Claire MaCaskills and Nancy Pelosis of this country.

    I'm clinging to my money out of bitterness, you see.

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:46:45 AM EST
    i enjoyed being one of the 7200 voting for shirley golub instead of more pelositis.  A horrible congressional condition, pelositis.

    Parent
    Domestic violence and the Sheltering Movement (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:14:47 AM EST
    I read a great report last summer about the impact of sheltering on domestic violence.

    Activists just got tired of law enforcement's do-nothing stance: boys will be boys and, in cases involving same-sex partners, usually M/M, the "CW" that it was always part of some pathology.

    So they -- we, since I've always been activist in sheltering -- just did it ourselves.

    Both the law enforcement aspect of protecting women and laying charges independently of the victim "officially" insisting on it, and the legal aspect of prosecuting changed significantly.

    Back in the day I was also part of a community movement to make the police go public with news of assaults like rape and anti LGBT violence, and their own intimidation of minority communities, eg, treating every black guy walking down the street as a potential drug dealer, or driving alone for [whatever crime happened in the hemisphere].

    The assaults often got suppressed in the news because police Cowboys wanted to nab individual serial offenders and used neighborhoods as unknowing bait.

    We used permanent paint to stencil the time and nature of the assault on the pavement or wall where it occured, to alert the neighborhood, and sent press releases to media.

    Police Dept's official reaction: WE were scaring the rabble. Heh.

    Grass roots is always what makes a movement. "Brand" stuff like smoke and mirrors Obama stuff is intentionally designed to steal people's proxy.

    Don't give yours to unworthy leaders, and always always always do your bit for the community.

    Parent

    Did you join the (none / 0) (#88)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:37:17 AM EST
    PUMAPAC?

    Parent
    Have you been to Hillary's blog (none / 0) (#120)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:10:30 AM EST
    to read the latest from her supporters?

    Parent
    I haven't (none / 0) (#138)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:34:29 AM EST
    whats the tone?

    Parent
    Just doing a quick glance (none / 0) (#141)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:39:02 AM EST
    seems like many are firmly behind her. One comment had a list of all the states and voter requirements for write ins . . . .

    I have to wonder if Obama will even have her stump for him. I don't know how much of the ones with their heels dug in that will turn . . .

    Parent

    It will (none / 0) (#147)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:48:26 AM EST
    depend on what she does I think. She has several factions that will do different things depending on her. If she conceeds I believe any stumping by her will be for naught for a portion of them.

    Parent
    I was just listening to Richardson on LK (none / 0) (#161)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:13:53 AM EST
    He's a whiny a**, I sure hope they just let her get on with her life. Bill also. The two of them will get more done for people here and everywhere before some of these other fools get their acts together.

    Parent
    Gawd I so agree (none / 0) (#165)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:20:00 AM EST
    I really can't abide Richardson. I can't imagine having to listen to him on a regular basis. Every since I saw him on the LGBT forum I wanted nothing more then for him to go away.  And yes. Both Bill and Hillary have better things to do then worry about Obama. They will anyway. I guess that's why we love them.

    Parent
    I didn't see that forum, but he's opened his (none / 0) (#169)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:33:49 AM EST
    mouth enough lately that I just want him to go away. He's not helping the party at all with his comments. He's, ahem, being extremely divisive!

    I'm sure Bill will be happy to get back to his Foundation, and Hillary will be re-energized in the Senate. I have a feeling she's going to kick some behind there. I learned of some things recently that she was working on in the senate (less antibiotics in beef cattle etc) that I'm very interested in, so she will be getting some more emails (at her senate addy) on some of these from me. Heh, I may have my Senator back!

    Parent

    Her letter tonight (none / 0) (#172)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:37:56 AM EST
    sounded like she was conceeding. (Not just suspending for later). That really really bothers me. I guess that is her choice of course, but it disappoints me.

    Parent
    I'm confused on that (none / 0) (#178)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:28 AM EST
    The talking heads (that I've heard) are very specific it's suspend. I'll admit, I'll be gutted if she concedes. Candy C said she (Hillary) was very concerned about the history of it. If she hangs on to the delegates and gets a mention on the floor of the convention, it would be good for all that were invested in this. Young and old, for history and the future young ones coming up. That makes sense to me. And then there's the added benefit of her being in place in case of an Obamanation ;)

    I wasn't sure with her email. I do think she is correct in how she's handling it though. She is giving us process time. I will hope that she hangs in and just suspends though. Even if it is just for history and all the young women coming up in the future.

    Parent

    I'm pretty sure she's just going to suspend (none / 0) (#182)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:09:17 AM EST


    Parent
    Well that settles it! (none / 0) (#183)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:09:52 AM EST
    I am going to go write a nasty email to Donna Brazile (just because it will make me feel better) and head to bed. I just can't stand it. Lol.

    Parent
    i wonder if there will be an influx (none / 0) (#170)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:36:30 AM EST
    of more people into the greens in SF?

    Parent
    How is that new script working? (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by BarnBabe on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:39:19 PM EST
    You mentioned stops at 200 but the top thread is not over 260 comments and still open.

    it's not working (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:09:38 PM EST
    Colin is trying to figure out why.

    Parent
    I think it was working earlier. (none / 0) (#198)
    by andrys on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:16:22 AM EST
    I opened up a box and was writing away and then I made sure my 5 paragraphs had working links and no horrendous errors, this time, and clicked on 'post' and it wouldn't go through.

     I checked and found that while I was writing, the forum had closed for posting.

     In the past, it let those of us who had opened up a box to write, finish, and post instead of such not-good surprise.

     Just a wee complaint.  Couldn't it let ongoing work be posted?  As before?

    Parent

    Has Donna Brazille quit? (5.00 / 11) (#35)
    by Joan in VA on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:47:46 PM EST
    She said she would if the Super-D's decided the nomination. They did and she should make good on her promise.

    HAHA (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:51:50 PM EST
    She better.

    Then, she also warned us several times that if Obama didn't get the nomination, "there will be blood". I wonder if the riot planning web sites are being taken down now.

    Parent

    There will be blood. But it will be ours (5.00 / 8) (#48)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:23:36 PM EST
    because Brazile has sucked all the life out of the Dem party.  It is dead to me.

    Parent
    It's not just Donna Brazile (none / 0) (#196)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:04:23 AM EST
    of course, but I wonder if she has any idea how much damage she has done to the party. I've never been so tempted to leave the party in my life.

    Parent
    I'll spend the remainder of the campaign season (5.00 / 4) (#92)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:42:28 AM EST
    • supporting Sen Clinton in any endeavor she chooses,
    • not assisting Obama in any way other than to wish him and his "multitudes" (that won't show, IMO) good freakin' luck
    • and hurling darts at Donna Brazile whenever and wherever possible for sport.

    I don't care if she tosses a whole Mama at me, even a Mama and a Half. I know how to duck.

    Parent
    i got your mama and am tossing-snark (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:51:23 AM EST
    to grand dads and an uncle back at ya ms brazile.

    Parent
    Superdels did not decide, they ratified. (1.00 / 1) (#119)
    by pod2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:10:24 AM EST
    I have to point out that Obama won the majority of pledged delegates well before he won the majority of total delegates.  In other words, Obama did not need the superdels to win the nomination, he just needed them to stand aside and not overrule his lead in pledged delegates.  

    Parent
    You really don't know the rules (5.00 / 3) (#142)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:39:11 AM EST
    that even Brazile cannot change about what it takes to win the nomination, do you?  Look them up and then come on back to really contribute here.

    Parent
    Changing the rules... (5.00 / 11) (#41)
    by OrangeFur on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:11:52 PM EST
    A month or so ago, Chris Bowers of OpenLeft predicted that Clinton couldn't win the popular vote, if you give Obama about 173,000 uncommitted MI votes, consistent with exit polls. He used a principled approach that included MI and caucus estimates.

    Of course, Clinton beat all expectations.

    On Monday, Bowers predicted that Clinton still couldn't win the popular vote, since according to his numbers, she was only 20,000 votes ahead by the same metric he had previously used, and Obama was favored in both MT and SD. I give him points for using a consistent metric.

    SD had different ideas. Obama only gained 17,000 votes yesterday.

    So what does Bowers say today? Obama won the popular vote! How? Apparently Bowers decided to enhance his metric by adding in a vague number of Michigan write-in votes for Obama.

    Would I be too cynical if I thought that he fudged the rules at the end to get the outcome he wanted?

    Is he a member of the DNC? (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:54:30 AM EST
    He probably learned math from them.  Seriously.  I think they've taken "inventive math" to a whole new level.  

    On a different note -- does this whole thing of "delegate math/vote math" vaguely remind anyone of playing a game with a child under age 6?  Little kids always win at games with adults because they get to make up the rules as they go along and the rules always make them the winner!  

    I'll betcha Little Barack beat his grannie at cards a gazillion times when he was a kid...  ;)

    Parent

    I read an Obama bio (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by zyx on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 09:14:17 PM EST
    by David Mendell, "Obama: from Promise to Power".  Mendell is a Chicago Trib reporter and covered Obama for quite some time, and I read somewhere that this is the "only serious biography about Obama".  Got it from the library and could hardly put it down.  Not a puff piece, and not a hit piece, either.

    I'd like to discuss it with some folks, like a Wednesday brown-bag lunch book talk...has anyone else read it?

    Haven't read it.... (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:14:57 AM EST
    ...but I am curious.  What did you find interesting?

    Parent
    Forty years ago tonight (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by caseyOR on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 10:32:12 PM EST
    Today is the 40th anniversary of that horrible night in LA when Bobby Kennedy was shot. I know many of us are still furious about that nonsense last week, but let's not let that keep us from remembering a great American who was killed while he was campaigning for many of the same liberal ideas and values we still fight for today.

    the bbc can be rather comical when discussing US (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:11:33 AM EST
    For millions of Americans, who have not read his book, who do not read the New York Times and who do not follow politics obsessively on the cable TV networks, he is a blank canvas, which his opponents can paint on.

    ohhh how many ways to laugh at that statement...

    But I have read Nytimes and that paper (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:28:07 AM EST
    was in a way responsible for cementing my opposition to Obama. Initially when Nytimes was still objective they had come out with a detailed report on axelrod in which they had also highlighted the dubious way Obama won his senate seat and other unsavoury details.
    Then they had this equally long and investigative piece on Obama's senate record which showed an extremely cautious politician who was too scared to take a stand.
    later of coursse they forgot their own reporting and started seeing everything with Obama tinted glasses.

    Parent
    They fell in love (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:35:40 AM EST
    Like the rest of the media, the NY Times fell deeply in love with Obama and dumped everyone else.  

    Parent
    Since the Judy Judy Judy (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:07:52 AM EST
    thing, I don't trust the NY Times reporting on politics.  In fact, I rarely read it anymore because I don't know where the information is coming from.  The Judy thing made me think that they take Press Releases from people like the White House or Axelrod and run it as investigative reporting.  

    They lost my confidence.  

    I still read WaPo however.  

    Parent

    As of May 11... (none / 0) (#91)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:40:50 AM EST
    ...they weren't really in love with him.  If they were the article would not have the angle it does.

     Their columnists are a different matter.

    Parent

    i don't agree (none / 0) (#102)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:51:37 AM EST
    there was some very, very polite wording in that article that took the most positive view possible imho.  so even though it covered some not so pretty things, it was seemed fairly soft.

    Parent
    This article (none / 0) (#103)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:52:11 AM EST
    wasn't a love affair?  We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    Parent
    It's such a shame... (5.00 / 4) (#57)
    by citizen53 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:16:34 AM EST
    that we have to put everything aside to get someone elected.

    How I wish that we could go after the corrupt system itself that gives us such limited choices, more designed to protect the status quo than realize change.

    FWIW

    1st and 2nd choice voting (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:19:46 AM EST
    Even that has its challenges.

    But if you could write in Clinton first choice, Obama second choice, and if Clinton doesn't win, your vote goes to Obama, that'd be pretty cool, I think.

    Parent

    I don't know if this makes sense (5.00 / 7) (#59)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:18:35 AM EST
    but in a strange way I am kind of relieved that Hillary is out of the race.
    I am relieved because now I can watch TV and TV talking heads without having to cringe, flinch or have the need to fling things at them and their blatant Hillary hatred which was misogynist and perverse.
    I am relieved because I no more have to visit the so called liberal blogs like Huffpo and co. earlier at least I felt the  compulsion to go occasionally  just to gauge the mood and those infrequent trips only depressed me further seeing how the articles and comments were literally indistinguishable in their overall theme of Hillary is bad, evil yada yada.
    I am relieved that I don't have to wade through commenters spewing their innermost hatred and other stuff at all things Clinton.
    I am relieved that finally the major publications like WaPo and nytimes can go back to their nonsensical reporting with much lesser credibility  instead of having to allow their columnists spew right wing hate filled talking points against Hillary.
    And I am relieved that I do not have to see various Dem elites come out and slyly bash Hillary and call her supporters irrelevant, racist, uneducated, doesn't matter, invisible.

    A lesser person would not have survived this constant onslaught. Hillary not only survived but emerged stronger but that doesn't mean the experience was pleasant for any of us.

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:20:18 AM EST
    it is Obama's burden now. He will either crumble or shine.

    Parent
    the media will continue to polish Obama (none / 0) (#89)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:37:47 AM EST
    So that he will shine, even if it's a thin veneer, with nothing supporting it.  

    Parent
    i won't be watching the convention this (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:55:54 AM EST
    year. for one thing it has none of the drama and choice making i have come to love and enjoy. now it is a scripted commercial. what can i say, i think 2004 was so boring. i don't like all the decisions being made before the delegates even show up.

    now if hillary takes it to the convention, then we'll see.

    Parent

    reading and viewing habits changed (5.00 / 5) (#112)
    by noholib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:58:54 AM EST
    No it wasn't pleasant or pretty. When the old right-wing noise machine met so-called left-wing blogosphere to join forces in Clinton Derangement Syndrome, it got very very ugly indeed.  
    For me Schuster's "pimped out" remark on MSNBC in early February was the end.  I stopped watching them  and virtually all network TV political coverage.  I only turned the TV on when I wanted to watch a debate or a speech after a primary. Goodbye to many blogs that I had followed for their anti-Bush administration animus.  They've all sunk beneath contempt in my eyes.  I still read some major newspapers, e.g. NY Times, WashPost, Boston Globe, but with new eyes.  It will never be the same after this.

    Parent
    Do you really expect (5.00 / 2) (#202)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:40:09 AM EST
    the Hillary bashing to quit now? I would be surprised if it didn't continue through the convention. And if she actually fully concedes on Saturday, I expect it to become even worse. Dowd and Huffington will be in pig heaven. I can hear them: "She said she was ready to go all the way and yet here she is giving up. I knew she didn't have it in her." She will be blamed for bowing to the party bosses. She'll be damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. No, I don't think they'll be done with her by any means.

    Parent
    Makes perfect sense to me (none / 0) (#122)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:12:40 AM EST
    I didn't want her to run at first because of exactly all that.

    But I'm sorry to say that the media find Hillary like catnip and they won't be able to stop.  If she dropped dead, they'd excoriate her for being so ruthless as to do it before an Obama speech.

    The frequency may lessen, but my guess is that they're going to continue to obsess over her because she's a heck of a lot more interesting than Obama.


    Parent

    gyrfalcon, don't forget... (none / 0) (#158)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:00:52 AM EST
    The more the media hate on Hillary the more people love her.

    We'll have to wait and see whether Obama can turn media hate into love for him at the polls.

    Parent

    Yes. And I find that I can't (none / 0) (#199)
    by andrys on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:22:20 AM EST
    read anything they write anymore and have any faith in its accuracy.  It's the most biased 'news' site I have ever encountered and it's pretty flagrant stuff.  

    Parent
    I don't know if this counts as a trend (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:31:31 AM EST
    but in AC360, when earlier the panelist were all Pro Obama (including the republican guests), tonight they had 3 panelists one pro Obama and the other two Pro McCain.

    AC360 goes 180 (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by noholib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:52:43 AM EST
    The 180 degree turn from Obama to McCain has already started in the media.  Entirely predictable, as many  posters on talkLeft have said so many times.

    Parent
    TRIBUTE To HRC & HRC supporters (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by mabelle55 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:35:29 AM EST
    Hey TL folks:

    I don't visit very often. I've been kinda busy (heh heh).

    Anyway, I've been feeling really bummed-out and sad since yesterday. I decided to create a "TRIBUTE" post to HRC & her supporters over at my blog.

    This is an invite - since you all are HRC supporters! Hope you'll drop in, introduce yourselves, enjoy the video, share a thought, leave a comment, whatever. I figured if I was bummed, there were probably millions of other HRC supporters who were bummed, too. Doing this made me feel better (even if it still makes me feel sad), so the TRIBUTE is catharsis and rejuvenation.

    http://commonsensequotient.typepad.com

    Thanks for all you do!

    The more I think about this (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:53:11 AM EST
    the madder I get?  Thanks to the media and the Democratic party leadership we have all been robbed of the joy we should be feeling for the historic nomination of the first African American or female candidate in our nations history.  I feel bad for the way that this primary has been handled so that neither has been able to secure the respect and the support that one should have without the interference of those who think they know better than the common voters.  

    I do not understand why the Dem leadership could not allow Hillary a couple of days to make a decision with dignity instead of forcing her hand by sending a letter to the remaining undeclared superdelegates.  Would they have done the same if the candidate had been a man instead of a woman?  I also feel an awkward sympathy for Obama who now will be tainted in the eyes of many for receiving the favor of the party elders to put him over the top to secure the nomination.  This is a sad day for democracy and the Democratic party.  

    I'm furious (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:21:47 AM EST
    that the joy I should feel, expected most of my life to feel, at the nomination of an African-American has been taken away by this &^%^$  I voted twice for Jesse Jackson, but this guy...

    A black radio talk show host I never heard of before, seemed like a very reasonable fellow, was talking on TV today about the outpouring from his listeners, many sobbing so hard they couldn't be understood about having an African-American nominee.

    Much as I have come to loathe Obama, I think we should all respect that feeling utterly and be moved by it.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by standingup on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:35:03 AM EST
    and don't want to take away what this moment must mean to them.  I do wish it could have happened in a way where we were the party had not pitted one group against the other.  I can imagine this is very difficult for the Clintons too with all of that they have done for the AA community.  I am somewhat consoled with the number of AA's polled that would be satisfied with her sharing the ticket.  My opinion is that there are party elders and others who chose the time, place and candidates to pit one against the other knowing that the outcome might serve their needs but not the needs of the voters.  

    Parent
    But Only Up To A Point (5.00 / 8) (#156)
    by cdalygo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:00:20 AM EST
    The African American Community has in the past, and certainly could have now, pushed forward a much better candidate. Having him get through to the end by not counting votes in Florida and outright stealing them in Michigan is a terrible irony. Some might see it as a proper historical payback but most rightly view it as a shocking disregard for the sacrifices made to gain the right to vote.

    One of the worst things about this campaign is how the dual issues of race and gender were handled within the Party and outside in media/blogosphere. Any legitimate criticism of Obama was labeled racist and therefore taboo. In contrast any misogynistic comment, no matter how outrageous, about Clinton was trumpeted loudly.

    That deeply cynical approach barely carried Obama through a thoroughly corrupt primary process. But it scarred him and split the Party prior to the General Election. (Blaming Hillary and her supporters for this split is just a further example of what happened over last 16 months.)

    But the most dangerous thing is that it trivialize the issue of race in America. The smearing of the Clintons as racists, despite their overwhelming personal history to the contrary, doesn't pass the laugh test even with the Republicans. Extending that same analysis to her supporters just hardens attitudes and will allow people in the future to disregard valid claims of racism. Finally it ignores the multi-culturalism that actually exists in America (i.e. beyond black/white).

    Hillary may have personal and political ties to an institution, in my mind formerly known as the Democratic Party, this travesty allowed that to happen. I no longer do nor will she persuade me otherwise.

    Parent

    To continue my "Job Performance" theme (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:55:17 AM EST
    BTD said:

    I have no idea who do a better job.  I go by what they say they are going to try and do and in terms of their chances for getting it done.

    But therein lies the disconnect, I do have an idea who will do a better job as president.  I think all the Clinton supporters here on this site have an idea about who will do a better job.

    Furthermore, I think people have spent a lot of time wringing their hands about the folks (many different names, lunch bucket Dems, working class Dems, some like to RACIALLY POLARIZE the issue by calling them White Dems, when the color of anyone's skin has nothing at all whatsoever to do with what we're talking about here) who have continued to vote for Clinton even though it became clear she would not win.

    I think these people make the same consideration, they don't want to take chances, they have a sense that Clinton will be able to do a better job, and they stick with it.  In that respect, it's not even Clinton loyalty, it's the same consideration they'd give to anyone who projected confidence instead of swagger (it's too easy to call it arrogance, though that's what it is).

    I know it seems mundane, anyone who supports a candidate is going to say their candidate will do a better job.  But if all you go by is what the politician says, then it also has to be considered politicians will say anything to get elected.

    To cut this short.  Obama can go bowling, drink leinenkugel (or whatever it is) with these voters, he can make all sorts of wonderful speeches, he get his folks in the media to smear the McCain folks as racist for criticizing Obama.

    He can do all these things, if he is never able to overcome this "job performance" issue with these voters (people who will not agree youthful travels count for Foriegn Policy experience), then I don't think they will vote for him.

    I find it odd that one can discuss electability without ever thinking about or coming to some conclusion about who might do a better job.

    The electability that matters to the folks Obama isn't reaching is based only on what kind of a job they think he'll do.  And it's obvious he hasn't made that case to them.

    People do have opinions and ideas about that.

    Sort of a sidenote on this theme.  I just remembered.  There was actually one Obama supporter I ever ran into who actually bothered to discuss the issues and make the claim that Obama would do a better job than Clinton.  In retrospect, I'm sure this guy was wrong, but fairplay to him, I can respect that.  He believed it too.  That's cool.

    The rest of them just thought I was an idiot and profoundly offensive for even considering such a thing.

    Exactly. (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by masslib on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:02:13 AM EST
    Gee, I thought this was a meritocracy.  Hillary developed the resume for the job.  That's why those working class voters voted for her.  She convinced them with her experience and her knowledge of the issues.  They hired her, like they've been hired and promoted.  Because she had done her homework.  That's a hurdle for Obama.  The thin resume.  

    Parent
    The South Dakota editorial board (none / 0) (#200)
    by andrys on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:25:39 AM EST
    ...the famous one... talked about her mastery of detail of things South Dakotan as well as national and world.

    Though she was behind in South Dakota a couple of weeks ago and always before that, I think there was a backlash by those there who saw the interview and then the manufactured hysteria of Obama backers and thought they would not go with that kind of overheated craziness.  It showed them what ObamaWorld is like.

      I think every district leader endorsed her the day before.

    Parent

    I'm trying to distill this down to one thought (none / 0) (#118)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:09:17 AM EST
    But I'm rambling.

    Right now the focus is on mollifying Clinton supperters.

    We're not children.  That approach will fail.

    Moreover it won't convince anyone that Obama isn't a risky choice for president.

    If making Clinton a VP, if the thought process behind that becomes more about making Obama a less risky choice for president, then that is an approach, an attitude that could possibly work.


    Parent

    Whence Obama? (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by martineunseen on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:56:55 AM EST
    I think understanding BO's relatively sudden accension to national prominence could be informative as to how he might govern.
    Somebody recognized his gifts as a speaker. Somebody put him forward to give an address at the '04 Convention.
    Somebody gave him a book deal with a big advance and engaged the media in the high profile promotion of his book.
    Somebody financed his Senate campaign.
    Imagine the prediction:
    "Obscure state senator becomes the nominee of the Democratic Party for POTUS in just 5 years."
    Who would believe it?
    His policy propasals (no health care mandates) are so middling as to be corporate correct. He assiduously avoids controversial postions and people and exhorts us all to Hope for "Change we can believe in".
    I am sure that BO and Michele agonized long and hard over whether or not he should answer the "call". And so Corporate America got their man.
    He is Obama!
    And John McCain?
    He is President of the United States!

    Brilliant article by Joan Walsh (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:41:44 AM EST
     The Other 18 Million

    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:43:04 AM EST
    so now why is it a bad idea to vote for McCain?  LOL!

    Maybe... (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by NWHiker on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:48:22 AM EST
    Maybe we can skip November and just have a McCain/Obama ticket right now?

    We wouldn't even have to count votes, and the Florida Dems would have lost their votes for nothing.

    Bereaved and bereft (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by ap in avl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:52:36 AM EST
    Got Hillary's email.  
    Such class.
    She is MY Eleanor Roosevelt.

    I respect her decision but I am very sad.

    Edwards VP? (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by travc on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:56:43 AM EST
    Anything wrong/offensive with Edwards as VP choice?  

    Sorry this is late in the tread, but I'm honestly curios what the opinions here are like.

    PS: I really respect Wes Clark, who would be a fine choice, but not the best man for the job IMO.  (Make him SecDef, please!)

    man!? (none / 0) (#155)
    by travc on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:59:22 AM EST
    Sorry bout that.  No sexism intended by using 'man for the job'.  'Person' is the much more appropriate word.  ('man for the job' is just an established idiomatic phrase I'm afraid.)

    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#157)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:00:47 AM EST
    there is anything offensive about Edwards. Just nothing particularly effective in the choice.

    Parent
    If Obama does appear (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:25:55 AM EST
    on stage with Hillary, I hope nobody boos. I want Hillary to take her struggle all the way to the convention. I believe that is the right thing to do. But I think we should show respect to both contenders no matter what happens.

    Here is to you, ladies! (4.66 / 6) (#134)
    by Thankful4women on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:27:14 AM EST
    I just registered to say one thing: honest to God, I am overwhelmed by what I am witnessing on this site.  Mother nature decided to bring me into this world (somewhere in west Africa) a black man. For the past month and a half I have quietly browsed the posts on TL and slowly come to understand the passionate support for Hillary, and the reason why many say they won't support Obama after his camp's attitude. But tonight I'm simply stunned by the conciliatory posts coming from what has to be disappointed loyal supporters, beginning with Jeralyn. The fact that women are capable of taking such a blow and yet continue to appeal to reason makes me now think that a woman POTUS (took me a couple of days to figure out this and other TL jargon, lol) would probably have been more effective, after Bush, in once again lighting that American fire which gives hope to those of us living in tyranny. This amount of reason is simply not present in me and my fellow men. I was already inspired by African mothers and daughters in my country, and this truly adds to my belief in women. As it is, I really don't think Obama deserves your vote. If he wants it, he knows what to do in the next few months. But, in the end, whether you vote for him or not, I pray that your daughters, future grand-daughters, and women everywhere continue to make this world a better place.
    Some, not all, just some (4.33 / 3) (#77)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:26:27 AM EST
    Obama supporters are freaking me out.  I have to avoid the usual haunts on the net as they seem to be everywhere vacilating between angry and concern trolling for themselves.   It's freakin' me out man, it's freakin' me out!  Some are very disconcerted with the fact that Clinton is suspending on Friday and Obama will have the nom.  I have never experienced anything like it ... and I've been around teenagers.

    I was just thinking I would not want to run in to one... then it dawned on me, I don't know any.  Surreal man, surreal.....

    They really (5.00 / 5) (#81)
    by LoisInCo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:30:32 AM EST
    don't have anything other than Hillary Hate. Just watch even after she suspdends they will be using every excuse to bring her up to bash her. That is what energized them.

    Parent
    Obama supporters have been (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:25:42 AM EST
    freaking me out for months now.  I really don't get them.  They are like something out of a B-Rated Science Fiction movie from the '60s...  

    Parent
    Saw the same thing during the Reagan years (5.00 / 7) (#140)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:35:15 AM EST
    but this freaks me out more.  The hatred for Clinton taps into some bone-deep misogyny in our culture that is horrifying.  Partly it's because it's from my own side (well, former side) but partly because of how freely it's expressed.  There is just no stopping point, there is nothing that is too offensive or threatening to say, there are just no brakes anywhere, and no consequences.

    Which is why I won't vote for Obama.  At this point I don't even care whether he could have stopped it (actually, he could have at least mitigated much of it), because if there are not consequences it will not end, and may spread.  It has the terrifying quality of a wildfire.

    And that is only one part of the total freakiness.

    Parent

    But this is like (5.00 / 4) (#190)
    by janarchy on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:29:15 AM EST
    Reagan times infinity. It really is cult-like behaviour. During the Reagan years, my friends certainly worshipped him and went on about his brilliance as a politician (erm, WHAT?) but they didn't gush over him.

    In the past 24 hours, I've had to defriend several people I liked at LiveJournal because they wrote very serious paens to Obama about how much they loved him and were smitten by him etc. more than they ever thought possible. I mean WTF? These are 25-30 yr old women, not high schoolers. Is this Tiger Beat (does that magazine even exist anymore?) or a presidential election? I start to wonder if they sit at home writing "Barack Obama" all over their notebooks with little hearts and stuff...

    Parent

    Zombies don't have the wherewithall to lead (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:57:02 AM EST
    They just chase living creatures with brains and try to eat them.

    ALone amongst each other ... well, you've seen what Cheetoh HQ is like.

    Blogs like Talk Left retain legitimate cred for Jeralyn's and BTD's legal-oriented insights on cultural and political events. That wasn't burned away.

    The others are self-obsolescing now that people can zone in via news aggregators and personal interests on what they want.

    Schadenfreude part deux: watching the Creative Class eat their own faces and feet during demise of the poliblogs.

    Parent

    two great leaders (1.66 / 3) (#175)
    by Lupin on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:52:28 AM EST
    There may be feelings of enmity between some fans of Clinton and some fans of Obama but I have never doubted that Obama and Clinton themselves had a friendly professional relationship in the Senate, and will work well together, as President and Senator (and perhaps more).

    I've said all week that Clinton would soon endorse Obama and campaign for him and it would appear I was right.

    Frankly, most of the anti-Obama stuff I've seen here has been just as kooky as the anti-Clinton nonsense I've seen on Kos.  Two great leaders, some poor followers.

    Rhen he'll have one vote, but not the 18 millions (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:29:01 AM EST
    She won't be casting 18 million ballots. It's not a caucus situation, get it?

    Parent
    It's truly fabulous that (5.00 / 5) (#193)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:38:05 AM EST
    Clinton and Obama are able to put everything behind them and move on.  That's what politicians do.  

    Unfortunately, most Clinton supporters aren't politicians and probably won't get over it that easily.  

    In-depth pre-campaign research should have told you that.  Many of us feel like abused spouses rather than Clinton supporters.  We've been called every name in the book, which is par for the course in an unhappy marriage.  

    So, it's nice that Clinton will endorse Obama but I'm grateful that I still get to control my vote!  

    Parent

    And reading the Obama byatch slap is so CLASSY (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:58:12 AM EST
    Yeah that's the magic that's got the Creative Class joyfully filling out their Dem version of the Risk board!

    As I said upstairs: Rude Awakening.

    Parent

    Getting over it (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by weltec2 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:11:30 AM EST
    I'm still not even over Gore, fr'even sakes. Who knows how long this Hillaryache will last...

    Parent
    speaking of mccain (1.00 / 3) (#13)
    by skippybkroo on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:18:15 PM EST
    was he separated at birth?

    that's a good post (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Edgar08 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:17:33 AM EST
    for the Obama supporters at Dailykos.

    Parent
    Dream ticket (1.00 / 2) (#208)
    by Oceandweller on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 06:21:07 AM EST
    I was very happy to vote Clinton, before meeting Obame, who- allow MHO, was /is offering -yes- MORE CHANGE-
    BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN I DISRESPECT SEN CLINTON, I JUST DONT THINK she made the right campaign-right - wrong, that is my perception as a voter.
    I WISH now we come to discuss the issues, for me the issue of most popular guy/gal is over.

    why do I wish to find HRC on the Veep slot is obvious from above. I did not vote for her obn the top list because of- what ever inner bonding I dont know, but that does not mean she is flawed if you get it
    Imagine you are in a restaurant you went to taste their famous recipe and the chef has come up with somethinh new and that you feel more attracted to it, that does not mean you throw away the famous recipe, that just means you are ready for both.
    HRC is a great woman, she had to put up with loads of problems and personal tragedies, she is a tough cookie
    and we need a tough cookie, she certainly is fit to steer the ship
    I see it like that sort of anmd dont laugh if you think I am crazy, He is like Columbus the man who had a dream and she is like the captains around him who brought the ships to the shores
    we need a leader and we need matter of facts people
    we need her yes
    just like you need us
    united we stand
    the vision and the means to get to that vision
    we need indeed those votes because without the votes the dream fails
    and without our votes you will not be able to reach the new frontier
    HRC and BHO each 18million with quite possibly HRC leading and due to poor counsellingyes- she did not focus enough on the strategy but that is meaningless
    this is not the end of the road, good grief
    this is still the dream ticket
    HRC WITHOUT bho CANT WIN AND WE ALL KNOW IT
    BHO CANT WIN WITHOUT HER
    this is a fact
    and that is not disrespectful
    in fact, IMHO being a tough cookie is quite something
    that requires a tough skin in face of adversity, injury,insult
    that requires swallowing so many bitter potions and yet carry on with and without a smile
    she has been plodding on and plodding and I applaud her journey,it is inspirationnal and yet it is very unfair for her to be ready from day 1 and yes I believe it, when someone came along with a message that is oh so overwhelming
    that is not disrespectful
    and what is more If you tell me I am insulting you in saying that deep inside we all have that very same thing yes for hope yes for change because yes there are solutions for America
    because we need someone to ask the right questions raise thew right issues and we need someone to help solving them
    because we all belong to the very same team who believe in democraty
    so yes we need HRC on the ticket, in fact I dont imagine anybody else but her on the ticket
    and I believe that this vetting process is just to give fodder to journalists while the real business is going on behind close doors
    we are here discussing of a team between equals
    sort of a coalition of equals working together for the USA
    do you really think all BHO voters are nutballs, do you really think 18millions of americans set much store about Bosnia and seriously believe for an emph of a second she thought that well RFK
    no naturally not
    I never thought she meant it and I was appallede at those journalists
    yes she has no friend in MSNBC but do you seriously believe 18millionsvoters religiously worship Oldderman
    no we dont
    and if you care to look MSNBC is regularly bleeding viewers
    because that is the way we express our message to that bunch of fools
    I am not going to raise hell I am going to hurt them where it hurts I am going to bleed them money dry
    in 2008 WHO ARE THE BEST REPRESENTATIVES OF OUR PARTY, YES BOTH
    and no I dont disapparage you voters and you know that without us you cant win we are siamese twins
    so you are going to tell me you want the upper slot
    so have it for all I care
    because I care enough for my country to offer it change and no 4 more years of Bush admin
    if you want us to fail so be it
    I cant convince youus we need to be united unless you realize it yourself
    we can rock the world together
    and that is enormous
    you-us-we are changing history
    that is why we must , we need,we can and are united
    because we want the best, the want both recipes, we want the dream and the act
    we want the brain and the hand who will answer the 3am call to be united for our country

    Hillary "likely" will suspend campaign (none / 0) (#2)
    by ChuckieTomato on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    Story

    Clinton is having an event (none / 0) (#3)
    by waldenpond on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 06:57:59 PM EST
    on Friday with her supporters.  Rumors abound. Does anyone have details... dinner? bands? Isn't the fundraiser tonight with both of them?  I wonder what it will be like?  I would like to see pictures of that but it's the big money people so I doubt it.

    Saturday (5.00 / 7) (#22)
    by JavaCityPal on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 08:30:36 PM EST
    The media is having trouble keeping the facts straight....

    They make up the news as fast as they can, so we need to cut them some slack.

    At least Tuesday scared them off from using words like "will" and sticking with "likely".

    Parent

    Saturday... (none / 0) (#114)
    by Addison on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:04:59 AM EST
    ...and it's apparently a done deal:

    Email just sent, check your inboxes.

    She congratulates Obama, and begins to publicly campaign for him, on Saturday.

    Parent

    Her emails are so much nicer than his (none / 0) (#127)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:19:05 AM EST
    sorry, just has to say it. I won't sign up for McCain's to compare, but I really hope Obama learns a more open and caring approach for the GE. Believe it or not, that's one area where McCain could best him. It's the little things sometimes . . .

    Parent
    McCain isn't as arrogant (none / 0) (#132)
    by SueBonnetSue on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:25:01 AM EST
    AS Obama and the Mrs.

    Parent
    You know... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:36:38 AM EST
    ...the email made me a little sad.  Even though I made a decision to support Obama after SC, I am more than a little dismayed that we (Democrats) had to engage in six months of identity politics and personality battles to reach a conclusion.

     But now the real battle begins.  

    Parent

    Good luck to Club Obama and the NuDems (4.50 / 2) (#176)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:55:24 AM EST
    ... in their future endeavors.

    They don't markedly affect my fortunes.

    Although I'm supposed to be an older bitter white racist dumb working stiff -- fill in any hate I've missed -- I had the wisdom to protect what was important to myself and my family.

    No one can take those away from me as I'm neither dependent on anyone for my success in business nor beholden to give anyone my support.

    Dems and Obama supporters, from politics or other spheres, don't need my support and I don't need their exploitation and insults.

    I also have more generosity than they do so I'll sincerely wish them luck and watch the flameout. One thing that will determine my future support, politically or otherwise, is how that individual or group behaved during this primary.

    Parent

    Great legal defense news! (none / 0) (#52)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:45:05 PM EST
     

    Legal defense news

     

    Oh no! (none / 0) (#72)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:23:29 AM EST
    As a liberal I'm supposed to be heartbroken by this, right?

    Parent
    police, universal healthcare, and bicycles? (none / 0) (#66)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:20:55 AM EST
    Apparently, even with a 450 person layoff,

    SF is still increasing its budget and prioritizing:

    police hiring (this is actually a long-running citizen ballot mandate).

    the universal healthcare budget +11 million (note: this is paid for with taxes/healthcare requirements for SF businesses)  Also note, doesn't cover dental and is basically sliding scale based on poverty-level.

    annnd...
    NINE positions at the transit agency for bicycle issues.

    can i rant?

    NINE. niiine?  can someone with a policy degree or transit experience explain NINE?  I could see three (or five if we were hiring separate people to paint bike lanes than street lanes).  but...NINE?!!

    Do not get me started (none / 0) (#100)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 12:48:38 AM EST
    when they cut public health and they have to provide protection to critical mass, makes me scream.  Last Friday, after leaving a meeting where we had to do some deep to the bone social service cuts in the Tenderloin, and I am walking to BART and the Creative Class gets a police escort all the way, to protect their whimsical protest, made me ballistic.  Particularly when I found out the Gov, Arnold, is cutting health services to immigrants.  

    I think it's time for a real revolution and not just the color pink or bikes.  

    Parent

    well, i sorta feel the need to watch my mouth (none / 0) (#125)
    by boredmpa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:16:28 AM EST
    but some of the city's organized groups do serious damage to the effective, efficient, and equitable function of our community by only caring for their piece of the pie.  serious reform requires coalitions and power sharing...and transit/bikes are a good example imho.

    anyway, i think the mayor is closing a drop-in and shelter downtown, but i know that in SF the healthy families/universal program only requires residency and proof of income status so im not sure the gov can change that in sf.  It's not free if you're above the poverty level, but the fact it actually covers all adults is pretty impressive.

    pokes his appendix  please be okay puhllleeeaaase.  I wish my abdomen would make up its mind.  First the liver area ached now the appendix now back to the liver. sigh.  I will say that navigating class-biased healthcare is a pain; in the current environment i feel that I have to be pretty up front about what I want and what I expect or I'll get less than what I need.  I made the mistake of not paying attention the other day and instead of having an appointment in 2-3 days (as the doctor ordered) I was bumped to two weeks.  

    Eventually, as the city/system understands better service (im in dreamland now, i know), they'll realize it's more cost effective to treat patients with quality care than reschedule them when their liver/appendix could send them the SFGH (and the bill to the city).

    Parent

    The City is not what it was (none / 0) (#148)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:50:49 AM EST


    Parent
    aha! (none / 0) (#130)
    by martineunseen on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:23:40 AM EST
    see my post @ 12:56

    McCain/Obama, Obama/McCain (none / 0) (#136)
    by martineunseen on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:30:31 AM EST
    Maybe Obama and McCain can run, simultaneously, as eachothers running mates!
    Dream Ticket!!!

    The Best Option (none / 0) (#149)
    by Thankful4women on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 01:51:17 AM EST
    What do you think of this idea: Obama should meet with Hillary and make a vow to select a Hillary loyalist who can help him win in November as VP, but in addition set it up so that the fill in agrees to step aside in 2012 for Hillary on the reelection ticket. This, in my opinion, solves the current (real or supposed)difficulty of putting her on the ticket this year; at the same time, it ensures a Hillary run and victory in 2016, assuming the two of them don't somehow pull a Bush-type reign and turn the entire country off politics forever!
    Problem?

    I doubt Obama will see much either from (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:32:23 AM EST
    The 18 million Clinton supporters he alienated and the millions of votes he shredded to get ahead, or millions of other voters who haven't weighed in yet and who won't like what Obama stands for.

    His campaign has been to vilify his legitimate critics as old, racist, bitter, dumb blah blah blah and he even made anti-Hillary"ism" a major plank of his platform.

    She could run for president tomorrow and WIN.

    Obama will have a hard time earning votes from hereon out, even if he does get positive media, even if his media BFFs claim to be 100% behind him.

    Even if his hipster old white guys patting themselves on the back for influencing young voters dance around like feckin' eedjits, let's see how the ballots get cast in November.

    I think they're all in for a rude awakening.

    And Sen Clinton could run for president in 2012 and WIN.

    Parent

    I believe (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:56:40 AM EST
    His campaign has been to vilify his legitimate critics as old, racist, bitter, dumb blah blah blah and he even made anti-Hillary"ism" a major plank of his platform.

    this is one of his bigger problems in the upcoming election.  

    The group that originally hit the internet promoting Obama were eager to brand anyone a racist who didn't want to get in line to vote for him.  You would ask about his platform, they'd point to his website.  This happened over and over again.  I saw some people who took the time to ask very detailed questions about particular parts of his platform and they were all rejected.  It's obvious now that many of these people promoting him knew very little about him or his agenda.  Were these Republicans promoting him?  Or Democrats?  Or were they paid volunteers?  

    Anyway, his campaign, for a lot of us, has been a tremendous turnoff since the early parts of the campaign.  Things he has said, things his wife has said...  How do you undo that damage?

    I find it very hard to believe he has a chance of winning in the Fall.  

    I'll go for McCain now and Clinton in 2012.  

    Parent

    I'm going for Clinton in 2008 and, I hope, in 2012 (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:13:27 AM EST
    Downticket depends on the individuals, but I'll be sure to look into how they behaved during this primary.

    Obama boosters, for obvious reasons, aren't going to see support from me and I'm urging friends and family to look at that in their regions as well.

    For example, Sen Clinton is my sister's senator and threats about her senate seat from loudmouthed Obama-boosters will have blowback I hope.

    Parent

    My state, California, (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:25:53 AM EST
    is true blue -- that's why I have to vote for McCain to have a voice.  Not voting won't do it.  I have to vote Red to eat into the Blue.  

    I truly believe the only way to make politicians hear you is to VOTE!!!  

    I love my Congressman and I'm sure his seat is totally safe but I'm probably going to vote for the Republican in this election too -- just to send a message.  

    I believe that voting messages are the best kind to send.  It seems politicians really understand those.  

    Parent

    Rude awakening: doubtful (none / 0) (#174)
    by Lupin on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:46:21 AM EST
    Obama is already up in the polls, now leading McCain 311 to 227 electoral votes at MyDD.

    Parent
    Fun! (none / 0) (#179)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:02:34 AM EST
    But there is no evidence he can win a lot of those states, like Ohio, Pennsylvania...  I daresay, but I think even California will be in play this time around.  

    Parent
    Polls don't equal power (none / 0) (#180)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:04:42 AM EST
    He hasn't even been accredited as the Dem nominee yet, which will happen in August.

    Get your head out of the who's more popular ether -- there's nothing tangible.

    Poll-world is worth little more than bathroom graffiti in a highschool during student council elections.

    Votes matter. Alienating core voters matters. Pissing off activists?

    That matters HUGELY.

    Parent

    The Bradley Effect (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:19:10 AM EST
    will be in play in this election too.  That's the folks that say they will vote for Obama (because they don't want to accused of being racists) but they vote for whoever they want in the booth.  

    This means a lot of polls won't mean very much.  We won't really know until November, when the votes are all in.  

    Parent

    The exit polls will be as big a hoot as ... (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:33:18 AM EST
    ... Donna Brazile's face trying to claim them as actual votes. You call it NuDemocracy; I call it Must See TV!

    Maybe the Dems should start working on Roolz to award Obama some of McCain's votes.


    Parent

    Those polls mean nothing, and if (none / 0) (#207)
    by BrandingIron on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 05:34:04 AM EST
    they REALLY think Ohio and Pennsylvania's got such short memories that they would go to Obama, they're sorely mistaken.  And New Hampshire is conservative, it will probably go for McCain.  Their map is wrong.

    Parent
    Now this surprises me.... (none / 0) (#159)
    by Oje on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:10:16 AM EST
    McCain urges Obama join him in town hall meetings

    I honestly thought in our post-rational, post-political, post-partisan campaign-to-end-all-campaigns before the Unity-Pony millennium that we would not see any debates or "town hall" meetings between two poor debaters.

    This does not surprise me... (5.00 / 4) (#162)
    by Oje on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:14:00 AM EST
    Obama's campaign reacted positively to the idea, but suggested a few tweaks.

    Independent analyst, Donna Brazile, and Independent newsman, Keith Olbermann, will host the debate. Independent blogger, Markos Moulistas, will organize and recruit participants for the town hall!

    Parent

    You better put Tweety in there somewhere (none / 0) (#168)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 02:33:20 AM EST
    or he'll be upset.  

    Parent
    Tweety will be the Tinglometer (5.00 / 3) (#188)
    by Serene1 on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:27:18 AM EST
    He will keep a note  of whose response to a Q. sends the most tingling sensation up his leg. The winner will be decided based on that.

    Parent
    He'll be tingly (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 03:41:18 AM EST
    but the FOX commentators will be positive orgasmic over anything McCain says!  

    Parent
    Help! We filled up our (none / 0) (#203)
    by Grace on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 04:56:29 AM EST
    Open Thread and we need another one!!

    :)

    blogs (none / 0) (#209)
    by rishi on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:40:23 AM EST
    I hope that when Obama becomes the president, all the blogs which supported continue to support his good decisions and criticize that bad ones, and work to get a new candidate in 2012 primary if Obama governs even a tenth as bad as Bush did.

    (I supported Edwards, then Obama in primary)

    Not that I am any kind of expert, but (none / 0) (#210)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 05, 2008 at 07:54:37 AM EST
    it seems like a script that would automatically close comments at 200 would also remove the comment box at the same time.

    Weds. Night Open Thread | 203 comments (203 topical)