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Won't Back Down Open Thread

My fanboy video for General Clark:

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    Can I add this... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:54:02 PM EST
    Dixie Chicks vid...from a fan grrrl?

    "i'll never apologize" is a (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:39:05 PM EST
    hoot on there.

    [ Parent ]
    The Chicks Rock (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:58:55 PM EST
    Right after the uproar with the Dixie Chicks I was able to get tickets for a concert at Madison Square Garden on the cheap through Ebay when people thought they were awful. I thought the Chicks were right then and in time that has proven to be the case. Can't wait to have a chance to see them again in the future.

    [ Parent ]
    Wow. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:57:53 PM EST
    I've been at work all day and missed all the brou-ha-ha-ha-ha...

    Wes Clark stands tough. Obama bobbles the ball. Hmm.

    So MoveOn is now officially under the bus? I will not say I told you so. I will not.

    Dang, I hate being right about these things. I keep hoping I'll be wrong. I think I'll change my name to Cassandra. Or, wait, that one from Norse mythology who saw the future but it was too awful, so he wouldn't tell anyone what he saw. Odin?

    Love the video, BTW.

    I missed it too (4.20 / 5) (#39)
    by angie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:20:12 PM EST
    and the problem for me with Clark's comment is that it was flippant. Everyone knows that it isn't getting "shot down" that qualifies you for President, it is serving your country -- and putting your life on the line in the US Military is the ultimate service to your country. Yes, Clark's point that it isn't the only thing you need to qualify to be President is right, but the way he said it was just plain crass. Does it help that Obama rejected the comment? No, it doesn't -- it just draws more attention to it -- Clark should have just said his phrasing was wrong. Backing down when you are wrong is a good thing, imo.  

    [ Parent ]
    Flippant? Crass? Wes Clark? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:56:44 PM EST
    You have got to be kidding.  Those adjectives just do not apply to the guy.

    [ Parent ]
    Anyone can have a bad day (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by angie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:47:09 PM EST
    and despite BTD's insistent otherwise, Clark goofed with his response -- acknowledging that isn't "attacking" Clark or being a "tool for the republicans" -- Clark said it and he was being flip to say it that way.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:40:57 PM EST
    If it's a case of saying the right thing the wrong way, but we agree it's right and truthful, then we can disagree on how it was said.

    I think he said it just fine.

    Obama people spent 98% of their time falsely accusing Clinton of things based on false readings of what her or her campaign said.

    I think this is a good chance for me to be consistent in my rejection of that kind of thing.

    No matter who does it all.

    [ Parent ]

    yes, the right thing the wrong way (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by angie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:52:21 PM EST
    as I said in my original post -- everyone knows it isn't "getting shot down" that people are talking about when they talk about McCain's military service. I think Clark saying it the way he did was  wrong because it comes off, to me, as flip and therefor lends itself to a "false reading." He is the one "talking for Obama" not Schieffer, and I don't think the Dems can afford to be seen as being flip about McCain's military service.  

    [ Parent ]
    Do you think what Bill said (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:53:29 PM EST
    In South Carolina lent itself to a "false reading."?

    [ Parent ]
    Obviously it did (none / 0) (#136)
    by angie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:02:51 AM EST
    because it was read falsely -- I knew what Bill was saying, the same way I know what Clark was saying. But that doesn't change the fact that I think Clark's comment will do for McCain the same thing that Bill's did for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I think there are ugly people in this world (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:09:25 AM EST
    Who will read whatever they want into whatever anyone says, and you have to take a stand, and reject their attempts to do so.

    You have to say "No more.  It stops here," or you end up hiding in a corner, staying totally silent out of constant worry that your words will be taken to mean something you did not intend them to mean.

    That's no way to live life.

    [ Parent ]

    It may not be a way to live life (none / 0) (#166)
    by angie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:32:43 AM EST
    but it is the political reality -- the "sound bite" from Clark sounds flip -- not a good line of attack on McCain imo. Jeez -- in this political atmosphere McCain is so easy to attack on his policies -- why in the hell are the Dems insisting on attacking him on his military service -- his least vulnerable point in comparison to Obama?

    [ Parent ]
    Even if the Obama campaign (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:35:01 AM EST
    Isn't interested in changing this Political Reality, I am.


    [ Parent ]
    Hear, hear! n/t (none / 0) (#172)
    by A little night musing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:45:40 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Why did MoveOn (none / 0) (#8)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:58:42 PM EST
    get under the bussed?

    [ Parent ]
    Cause it wasn't crowded enough already what with (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:00:17 PM EST
    the reverend, et al under there.  Needed more folks.  

    [ Parent ]
    Heh. Cosy now. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:03:54 PM EST
    They were implicitly under-bused when Obama "stood up to them" per some writer(s) I've forgotten,on the FISA bill.

    But apparently today in his Patriotism speech, Obama felt the need to refer to the "Betray-us" ad, in a negative way.

    I won't say "I told you so." But I did. Tell them so, I mean.

    [ Parent ]

    Heh. I guess (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:32:54 PM EST
    this is the change they were waiting for.  

    [ Parent ]
    You've heard of (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:07:24 PM EST
    Art for art's sake?


    [ Parent ]
    Heh. Is that why he (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:22:25 PM EST
    threw me under the bus again?

    [Catching up with old posts from earlier today:

    Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day.

    I wish he would cut this out. I know he said "some', and "in extreme cases", but he has no repect at all for what we did as activists back then, never talks about the good, which was a lot more. Grr. Obama, no one will ever mistake you for a DFH, so just. shut. up.]

    [ Parent ]

    Will Tom Hayden rebut this? (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:26:27 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    he's thinking about it. first he has to (none / 0) (#52)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:34:19 PM EST
    wash the egg off his face.

    [ Parent ]
    Hah, good song choice ... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:39:22 PM EST
    Not sure about the Norse mythology -- paging Valhalla ... Valhalla to the white courtesy phone -- but Proud Liberals, actual ones as opposed to these Fauxgressive shape-shifters -- have been prophets in our own time, cursed with the gift of prophecy and mass vilification.

    As a proud Cassandra Liberal (yictp) like her and my proud sistren and brethren, right 100% of the time since 2000, yet every political faction's favorite go-to straw (wo)man to whup'n'blame when anything goes sour, or just to prove they're righteous about [whatever].

    [ Parent ]

    Odin was given (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:59:19 AM EST
    knowledge of the future, including the destruction of the gods at Ragnarök.  Once he acquired his knowledge of the future (by trading one of his eyes to the keeper of the wisdom well), he never smiled again.

    They were a happy bunch, those Norse gods.

    [ Parent ]

    Proof that Krugman reads BTD (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:00:33 PM EST
    I dunno if I agree that the Media has turned (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:05:34 PM EST
    Ripping Clark is not ripping Obama.

    After all, Obama has been a good little soldier for the Village so far.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, I agree (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:06:17 PM EST
    I'm just focusing on the phrase.

    [ Parent ]
    The full phrase, of course, (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:38:46 PM EST
    from the studies of media theory and history about how fast such fandom can shift is:

    Media darling, media bum.

    Maybe it's worth remembering laws of gravity and all that.  What goes up, must come down.

    [ Parent ]

    Interesting (none / 0) (#59)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:41:25 PM EST
    The only other google reference I find for that phrase is from you.

    My experience is that the association of "media darling" with Obama is a BTD speciality.

    [ Parent ]

    Huh. I've heard it and used it (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:00:51 PM EST
    for years.  I'll try to find a reference, but it's been so long now.  An example I used in class was the media treatment of Frank Lloyd Wright, for one famous murky murder case. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Turn. Turn. Turn. (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:42:22 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Query: is "media darling" a phrase (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:08:11 PM EST
    one could have copyrighted and retired to Tahiti on?

    [ Parent ]
    heh (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:08:55 PM EST
    Who wants to live in Tahiti?

    [ Parent ]
    Not moi! (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:19:17 PM EST
    Vermont-4-Evah!

    [ Parent ]
    Rural one! (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:24:21 PM EST
    I need a city.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:09:52 PM EST
    No. Or I would be sipping Mai Tais right now.

    [ Parent ]
    So would I if shorting paid off on stupid ... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:31:15 AM EST
    ... copyright attempts, eg

    (1) "Let's roll" (crass/emotive 9/11 exploitation attempt to copyright an everyday piece of slang)

    (2) ThreePeat cf dynastic Laker coach Pat Riley (liked his coaching style but on his attempt to copyright this, What. A. D!ck.)

    Meh. I got a blender and I can make Mai Tais anytime.

    [ Parent ]

    I could have copyrighted "blogclogger" (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:10:02 AM EST
    but I gave it to the world.:-)  And I've got a jug of premixed margaritas ready and waiting, too.  And the salt, the lime, and even the fancy glasses.  Some chips, some pico de gallo and shrimp ceviche, and who needs Tahiti?  It's summer in my garden!

    [ Parent ]
    Oh, and Tahiti doesn't have s'mores (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:12:51 AM EST
    but I do -- good, Midwestern-invented graham crackers plus chocolate squares and marshmallows, all set to toast over a new backyard fire pit.  

    It's a lot easier than trying to toast marshmallows on tiki torches.  (We tried; don't ask.  Messy, messy.:-)

    [ Parent ]

    Dammit, you deserve some love for your brilliance! (none / 0) (#198)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:35:01 AM EST
    So here's what I got on my surfin' mini drive:

    Midwestern soul:

    Billy Stewart doing Summertime
    Wilmer & The Dukes doing Give Me One More Chance

    My uncle (Soul Brother No. 2) had these. My fave's not at YouToob but I'll find one and if it's not online, upload or email it. (Betcha can't guess what it is but the Song. Kicks. Feckin'. @ss.)

    And since I still can't wrap my mind around the image of kleenex on a bouffant as a display of religious piety that came up during the local comparative study of Catholic schools, I had to double check my understanding of the bouffant.

    Enjoy the blogclogging!

    [ Parent ]

    But wasn't it just yesterday you spoke (none / 0) (#188)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:15:40 AM EST
    of mosquitos?

    [ Parent ]
    ONly the pro-Obama bloggers are (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:07:10 PM EST
    turning so far.

    [ Parent ]
    Hello from roasting Washington state (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by hitchhiker on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:11:34 PM EST
    I just read (okay skimmed) the very fawning article in Rolling Stone; guess who is a completely new and different political figure???

    (I'm rolling my eyes, Rolling Stone.)

    Seriously, there is not a single skeptical word in the entire many-paged piece.  Everyone who works for Obama is a selfless genius.  They have tiny little unpretentious offices.  They want no credit or even public acknowledgement.  It is now official that Obama's purity and excellence are unsurpassed, but we also learn that his team has the same qualities.

    Jann Wenner should take a cold shower; I need me some Matt Taibbi for balance and grit.

    Have you ever wondered (none / 0) (#31)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:13:48 PM EST
    why the media treats Obama so well?  It's not like he goes out of his way to get all cozy with them.  If anything he is dismissive of them.

    Yet they seem to love the guy.

    Why is that?  

    I'm sure the responses to that questions will be priceless.

    [ Parent ]

    My gut honest answer (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:22:56 PM EST
    Is unprintable.

    Although it's not just that, it's intermixed with a narrative that all media folks love, that all politicians suck and what we really need is a politician who pretends he's not a politician.

    And with a healthy dose of CDS, you have the toxic stew.

    A perfect storm of media love.

    [ Parent ]

    they don't (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:11:21 AM EST
    love him. He's one of their class.

    It's their nature. Clinton's were essentially vulgar.  

    They will eat his liver soon enough though. McCain is from an Imperial Family.  Obama merely went to the right school.

    [ Parent ]

    Insightful (none / 0) (#152)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:20:15 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    The answer is obvious (none / 0) (#48)
    by angie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:30:40 PM EST
    He's "not Clinton" -- the ultimate (and apparently only) qualification needed to win the msm's undying love.

    [ Parent ]
    It is an interesting question (none / 0) (#70)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:48:46 PM EST
    First, there's the issue of the cable outlets and the need to compete with FOX.  I suspect that explains MSNBC, and maybe CNN.  

    Second, there's the narrative.  It is a great story.  An insurgent campaign knocks off the preordained candidate.  Also, the Clintons have always had a media problem.

    Third, attacking Obama is difficult.  He's got an unusual name and he's the product of a mixed race marriage.  You must be very careful about critiques of Obama, or, as FOX discovered, bad things will happen.    

    Fourth, Obama is a stunning politician with public speaking skills that put other candidates to shame.  Clark's description of his meteoric rise was spot on.  They're simply not accustomed to dealing with someone like Obama.

     Fifth, the Obama campaign understood the primary strategy as well as the new media reality.  Did they ever allow something like this?  Absolutely not.  

     There are many other reasons.  It is a nexus of circumstances, really.  


    [ Parent ]

    I agree with you (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edgar08 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:54:30 PM EST
    About why it's hard to attack Obama.


    [ Parent ]
    Here are five reasons.. (none / 0) (#77)
    by rjarnold on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:00:05 PM EST
    (And I think that there are many other factors that helped him become a media-darling.)

    1. The main reason is probably that the media loved the way he attacked the Clintons.

    2. Some columnists said that he shouldn't be criticized in some ways because he's black.

    3. Russert loved that he made social security (Russert's pet issue) an issue in the campaign and called it a crisis, even though it wassn't a crisis.

    4. There are many Obama fans, that send hundreds of anrgy e-mails and letters, whenever they feel the media is unfair to Obama.

    5. Many journalists liked that he was the only Dem candidate to be pushing the "unity" post-partisan rhetoric.


    [ Parent ]
    Eh...those are... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:20:56 PM EST
    ...anti-Obama partisan feelings about his media status.  

     Corporate media outlets are driven by profit margins, not Clinton hate or angry letters from Obama partisans.  If Clinton hate sells, they push it.  If it doesn't, they don't.

     What columnists are you talking about?

    [ Parent ]

    John Judis for one.. (none / 0) (#116)
    by rjarnold on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:36:23 PM EST
    He basically said that members of the media threw their support behind Obama when Hillary treated him like another politician.

    "Obama, too, was, and is, history--the first viable African-American presidential candidate. Yes, Hillary Clinton was the first viable female candidate, but it is still different... And if some voters didn't appreciate the potential breakthrough that Obama's candidacy represented, many in the Democratic primaries and caucuses did--and so did the members of the media and Obama's fellow politicians. And as Clinton began treating Obama as just another politician, they recoiled and threw their support to him."

    And are you seriously saying that people in the beltway media didn't care that he was attacking the Clinton's, making SS an issue, and calling for post-partisanship?

    You do have a good point in that they care about what sells, and I think that was another factor that helped Obama. He made the race a story, and was the best candidate with the advertising demographic.

    [ Parent ]

    hehe (none / 0) (#123)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:49:11 PM EST
    And are you seriously saying that people in the beltway media didn't care that he was attacking the Clinton's, making SS an issue, and calling for post-partisanship?

     No, but he gamed them if that was their concern.  

     His own attacks on the Clintons were really rather mild.  And rather vague.  But if the beltway media thought that a Democrat was going to flip on something like SS they're incompetent.

     Don't read Judis, so I'll take your word for it.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well, didn't Judis prove himself (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:50:49 PM EST
    to be a total fool, for so many reasons.  What an embarrassment it must be to have that paragraph follow him for all posterity.

    [ Parent ]
    but their profit margins (none / 0) (#168)
    by sancho on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:37:36 AM EST
    dont necessarily come from their tv ratings. their profit margins come from their other business ventures that are enabled by making sure their media outlets compress the political choices so that they win, regardless of who gets elected. this means that tv ratings are secondary to the narrative they want repeated so many times until it seems "true."

    [ Parent ]
    Taibbi (none / 0) (#44)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:26:10 PM EST
    drank the Kool-Aid a while ago:

    So maybe it's OK to let the grandiose things that an Obama presidency could represent overwhelm the less-stirring reality -- i.e., Obama as more or less a typical middle-of-the-road Democrat with a lot of money and a well-run campaign. Maybe it's OK because it's not always about the candidates; sometimes it's about us, what we want and what we want to believe. And if Barack Obama can carry that burden for us, why not let him? Seriously, why not? The happy ending doesn't always have to ring false.

    Link.

    Almost fell off my chair when I read that. Then I wept a little. :-)

    [ Parent ]

    "Fairy tale" (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:27:38 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, but there was also this: (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by hitchhiker on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:31:52 PM EST
    Obama has raised $80 million, and it would be a grievous mistake to describe his candidacy as a grass-roots affair, particularly when he counts among his bundlers many of the lobbyists and political-finance pros who buttress the Clinton run... Worse still, Obama's financial backing is reflected in some of his Senate votes and campaign positions, including most notably his support for expanding NAFTA to Peru, limiting the ability of injured workers and consumers to sue for damages, and pouring federal funds into E85 corn-based EthanOl, an alternative fuel for which the market is dominated by the Illinois-based [Archer Daniels Midland] Company. More than once I heard Obama give stirring speeches, only to mar them with plugs for ethanol.

    As quoted here

    I depend on people like Taibbi to keep enough perspective to make reading them interesting.  The Wenner piece is pure gushy schoolgirl crushy . . . I don't think Taibbi could mainline enough koolaid to write this pap.

    [ Parent ]

    I made comments earlier (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Dalton Hoffine on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:00:01 PM EST
    About affirmative action that were flat-out wrong and ill-informed. I apologize for sounding and being stupid. :P

    In other news, how about them Tampa Bay Devil Rays?

    I'm going to bet that they'll win the WS.. (none / 0) (#86)
    by rjarnold on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:12:08 PM EST
    They actually did a segment on ESPN asking if their success was due to them dropping the word "Devil" from their name.

    [ Parent ]
    Sigh. (none / 0) (#112)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:32:30 PM EST
    At least my boys put up a little show in the ninth inning.

    (I do find the Rays pretty exciting this season, but not so much for the next few days, I hope you'll understand. ;-> )

    [ Parent ]

    I have a new hobby (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:11:20 PM EST
    On father's day... I got an off-road motorcycle.  The family spent the day riding in the mountains on some old logging roads.  Riding in the shade, crunching the pine needles... ahhhh!  There were some leaves that smelled like a cross between madrone and bay leaf, wonderful stuff.  Although I never got over third gear, I didn't wreck.

    Friday, went to a private ride on some timber land.  Tried to stay out of the way and didn't ride much.  It was for professional single track riders.

    Today, I went and rode at a river.  It was sand mixed with tan dust and very rocky.  The bike stuck in the sand until I worked my way close to the river, then I slid around in the rocks.  Interesting how differently the bike handles.  It takes a little work to get all of the grit out of the mouth.  Fun stuff.

    Just a friendly reminder (none / 0) (#103)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:28:18 PM EST
    Fun for you, not so much fun for people trying to take a quiet walk in the woods and enjoy the sounds of nature, look for birds, critters, etc.

    [ Parent ]
    Completely separate (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:49:39 PM EST
    land use areas.  We take our dog only where dogs are allowed, mountain bike only on marked trails and now motorcycle in only motorcycle designated areas.  I live in Northern CA and land use (beaches, river bars, forest land) is very regulated.  

    [ Parent ]
    Paul Begala: A real fighting Dem (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ajain on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:29:49 PM EST
    This is some pretty amusing Republican/Democrat mud-slinging.


    Link

    "The Bush Republicans questioned the courage of a hero like Max Cleland. They besmirched the war heroism of John Kerry. They smeared Bill Clinton, savaged Hillary, attacked Sen. Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and Howard Dean," he said. "But when I call their fat-cat funders 'dirtbags,' they cry like babies. They are wimpy, whiny wussies."

    He added, "They are going to take their beating and like it, because this Democrat believes in fighting back."

    "The Bush Republicans questioned the courage of a hero like Max Cleland. They besmirched the war heroism of John Kerry. They smeared Bill Clinton, savaged Hillary, attacked Sen. Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and Howard Dean," he said. "But when I call their fat-cat funders 'dirtbags,' they cry like babies. They are wimpy, whiny wussies."

    He added, "They are going to take their beating and like it, because this Democrat believes in fighting back."



    LOVE IT! (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:35:36 PM EST
    I've been laughing until it hurts at this. Thanks for the link!

    Oh, if only we had more like this...

    [ Parent ]

    10 minutes later (none / 0) (#129)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:54:26 PM EST
    I just have to look at "wimpy, whiny wussies" and I'm convulsed in laughter again.

    But I think the cherry on top of the sundae is the final paragraph:

    Doug Thornell, a spokesman for the DCCC, said, "It is understandable that House Republicans would be embarrassed about their lavish celebration of George Bush's record of high gas prices and their coziness to Big Oil special interests, but facts are facts. Clearly, the truth hurts."
     

    The truth hurts. indeed. Hee hee.

    [ Parent ]

    Truly Sad (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by cdalygo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:51:26 PM EST
    After a long day at work I come home to see that you are still pushing a ridiculous argument.

    Neither McCain nor Obama has "executive" experience. In the absence of any empiric proof, folks look to potential. A good measure of that potential is performance under duress. McCain wins that argument hands down. Obama can point to no other triumph or struggle in life outside of the psychodrama involving his father. That does not even begin to compare.  

    Frankly, it's a character study in and of itself to watch Obama toss Clark under the bus for it. Although some folks "admire" his ruthlessness, it is not trait that endears loyalty. Sooner or later everyone will catch up on that only Obama rides up top.

    Clark blew it on a number of levels these past two days. He won't make vice-president because Obama now finds him too uncontrollable. He cemented his unpopularity among other folks in the military -- to both his credit and detriment he's always been the truly smartest guy in the room. He also helped highlight a major weakness prior to Obama's big speech.    

    Thank you Bob Schieffer (none / 0) (#147)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:12:22 AM EST
    Swallowing the Beltway line hook, line and sinker.

    Steny hoyer must love you.

    [ Parent ]

    McCain as far as it goes (none / 0) (#151)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:20:01 AM EST
    on decisions of National Security pushed a losing war on the public.

    It's evidence that he doesn't understand the military limitations of American power.  McCain still thinks that Vietnam was lost because of American public softness on the commies.

    He's willing to fight losing wars (very expensive losing wars)

    [ Parent ]

    This was a good argument (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by Grace on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:06:09 AM EST
    nonetheless.  I think it forced all of us to look at the transcript closer.  

    Kudos to both of you.  

    Scheiffer's comment was: (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by wurman on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:26:59 AM EST
    A. an interruption of Gen. Clark
    B. an insistence by Schieffer to make HIS point
    C. his point was that Sen. Obama is not qualified.

    Gen. Clark turned the insistent, interruption and its negative description of Obama's apparent failure to learn how to drive a fighter jet & get shot out of it into a nice rhetorical slam back at the smart-a55 interviewer.

    Clark's technique is known as the "hoist on his own petard" & Schieffer's "Really!" was the stunned recognition that his gambit failed.

    Gen. Clark's apparent difficulty is that too many people aren't bright enough to recognize that turning the hosts idiotic rhetorice back onto him is a "good thing" for terminating an idiotic line of argument.

    And in other fun news... (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by shoephone on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:30:52 AM EST
    Black politicians are being targeted in their re-election campaigns for having supported Hillary in the primary.

    Surprise, surprise.

    Ugh. (none / 0) (#206)
    by nycstray on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:56:56 AM EST
    I have to wonder if any of the districts have benefited from her earmarks etc. I know Harlem has. Also, NY pulled together as one unit and supported her and all switched to Obama together iirc.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't sleep (5.00 / 14) (#208)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 02:45:27 AM EST
    The thread is full, so I get to just say what I want and trust it won't be read.

    I don't care what Clark said. I don't care what BTD said. I don't care what happens in the world today.

    My youngest sister died very unexpectedly this afternoon. Her husband found her floating in their pool, but she was clothed and her lunch plate was dropped and broken next to the pool. We believe she was already gone when she hit the water. Her 45th birthday is this coming Tuesday.

    Can't watch the video from here. (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:53:50 PM EST
    But I thought the next BTD post would be about Kos's sudden revelation.  

    50p says he's working on it (none / 0) (#3)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:54:33 PM EST
    as we type...

    [ Parent ]
    Probably correct. Let's see. (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:55:34 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    No need (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:03:59 PM EST
    It speaks for itself.

    You know he is my good friend right? I am not kidding about that.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, we know you had dinner once. (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:04:42 PM EST
    But, aren't you surprised?

    [ Parent ]
    No (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:08:50 PM EST
    I am not surprised. I talk to my friends.

    [ Parent ]
    this thread made me go to dailykos (none / 0) (#27)
    by bjorn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:09:56 PM EST
    for the first time since early this year.  Wow!  I think BTD is rubbing off on his friend over there.  Integrity really is everything, and so it should be!

    [ Parent ]
    Integrity?! (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:35:18 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I figured after Kos remained silent on (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:14:49 PM EST
    Obama's statement on FISA, Obama could do or say anything and maintain his support.  Not so, apparently.  

    [ Parent ]
    Not surprising (none / 0) (#29)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:10:41 PM EST
    The blogosphere will get plenty upset with Obama for a while I suspect, including the pro-Obama crowd.

    They will get filled with anger and bitterness because they will feel that Obama is not standing up to them.  They will wonder why they backed him.

    And the the Republican Party will come to the rescue of Obama.  They will remind them exactly why they backed Obama.  They will take ridiculous shots at Obama and Liberals.  And they will rally around him.  

    Obama isn't going to magically change America, although I think he could be a great agent of progressive change in this country albeit at a pace that will infuriate the Left.  300 Million people don't change overnight.

    [ Parent ]

    Could you please explain this for me? (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:13:56 PM EST
    Won't go to DKos but I'm curious as all get out on what revelation?

    [ Parent ]
    It's worth a read. He was distressed (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:16:09 PM EST
    Obama dissed MoveOn and didn't stand up to McCain on the Clark issue.  Sd. he hasn't donated to Obama's campaign before, was ready to now, but didn't.  

    [ Parent ]
    For your ever-lasting enjoyment (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:43:08 PM EST
    the last sentence from Markos is worth the wading through.  It is this:

    "If you want sycophancy, this isn't your place."


    [ Parent ]
    I liked this one better: (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:45:18 PM EST
    Now that the primary is over, he can turn his back on the people that brought him.


    [ Parent ]
    Some who brung still think he's dancing with em (4.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Ellie on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:20:38 PM EST
    Back turned on them? Dusting his shoulder as they pass? Workin' that under the bus toss?

    Way kewl political moves that only insider super-get, according to deluded apologists Jonathan Alter and Randi Rhodes, here doing some pop'n'lock on FISA.

    (These are the loyalists who still think Obie's playing it cool till he gets elected by the stoopids, then do everything Club Obama wants.)

    The excuse-making is dizzying even allowing for the influence of the Creative Class's favorite Absolut & Koolaid cocktail.

    And for anyone who can't bear to listen all the way through, the closing flourish to the argument is: CLINTON!!!. (Bill).

    [ Parent ]

    One thing I was ALWAYS sure about w/ Hillary (5.00 / 6) (#95)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:23:46 PM EST
    was that she was going to "dance with the ones who brung her."

    I guess that's "old politics," but it was in her case reassuring.

    [ Parent ]

    HA HA HA HA HA!!! (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:16:44 PM EST
    (gasp, wheeze) (snorting bourbon all over my keyboard)

    You have GOT to be kidding!

    [ Parent ]

    I could not make that up. (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Cream City on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:29:15 PM EST
    And I actually checked to see if the link was to a mock-DKos site.  But nope.  Markos wrote that.

    And he has not yet been, to my knowledge, smote down for it.  If I were him, though, I'd keep an eye on the roiling heavens above.

    [ Parent ]

    Every sentence is a (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:27:05 PM EST
    lol, gasping, tears rolling down your face fest:

    When Republicans lost Congress in 2006, Rush Limbaugh bleated that he was happy, that he no longer needed to "carry water" for the GOP. Me, I'll never carry water for our team. I'll reward good behavior, and trash bad behavior.

    Double points for citing Rush.

    [ Parent ]

    I cured my Cheetoh addiction even before CDS ... (5.00 / 4) (#175)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:50:59 AM EST
    ... and studiously avoid the links, but this one I gotta see. :-)

    :: snapping on the protective anti-cheese dust latex gloves and magic helmet with goggles* ::

    (* I retrofitted an old bike helmet with Anti Brain-Softening tinfoil, wrote Cootie Protection on the side and added a monitor-protecting prescription sneeze guard with inside wiper blades.)

    [ Parent ]

    Oh oh, you haven't reported back (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by Cream City on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:17:25 AM EST
    and we begin to be worried.  Ellie, Ellie>  Have you survived your descent into the inanity?  Ellie?  Tell us you haven't succumbed to an orange-tinged epiphany. . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Sweet mother of gawd, is this the end of Cheetoh? (5.00 / 4) (#202)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:45:39 AM EST
    "1081 comments"

    I love the ones that insist SenObie's being mystically clever on this and who are we to question his brilliance.

    WE ARE NOT A CULT ... WE ARE NOT A CULT ...

    [ Parent ]

    Honest question: did you expect him to cave? (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 09:54:34 PM EST
    I was about 50/50 on that.

    General Clark? (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:03:06 PM EST
    Never. Ever.

    I am fanboy for only the best and the bravest.

    [ Parent ]

    But is he a pol? (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:03:51 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    4 stars... (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by kredwyn on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:05:56 PM EST
    You do not get to be a 4 star without playing the Game.

    [ Parent ]
    No (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:06:17 PM EST
    Not really. I guess that's why he'll never be President.

    [ Parent ]
    That's only because he'd have tl win a Dem primary (none / 0) (#150)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:16:57 AM EST
    If he'd declared himself a GOP stalwart he'd have been their candidate in 2000.

    [ Parent ]
    I didn't expect him to cave (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:17:17 PM EST
    but I didn't expect him to be almost gleeful holding his ground.  He really does love a fight.

    Another honest question: do you think the whole thing was orchestrated by Obama? I don't.

    [ Parent ]

    Nope, not orchestrated (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:21:53 PM EST
    but it might work out for him anyway.

    And yes, the glee that Clark had in all of this proves that he's ready to campaign form something difficult. Happy campaigners add 5 points. That's andgarden's 2nd rule of politics ;-)

    [ Parent ]

    It all depends on how the media plays (none / 0) (#130)
    by Valhalla on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:56:06 PM EST
    the original statement and Clark's followup.  

    They totally miss being able to generate ratings by attacking Clinton, and Obama attacking McCain's military service could be a good faux outrage tale for them.

    Glancing through the headlines over at Google news, the story sure isn't being spun the way BTD would spin it.

    This, eg, isn't such a great headline, for Obama or Clark:

    Clark Questions the Value of McCain's Service

    and the first paras:


    To this day, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., can't raise his arms above his shoulders because of injuries he suffered serving his country.
    Republican nominee fires back at attacks on his Vietnam War record.

    Shot down on a combat mission in Vietnam, McCain was badly injured and tortured relentlessly for five and a half years in a POW camp. That experience shaped the core of his character. Had he not been through it, he might not be a candidate for president.



    [ Parent ]
    Sure, the spin is bad (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:00:19 AM EST
    But I think the spin for the swift boat veterans was pretty bad too.

    Now the question is out there: is McCain qualified to be President. Unfortunately, the next question: is Obama more qualified, is also out there.

    [ Parent ]

    might as well hit it head on. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 12:24:18 AM EST
    It's a comparison that needs to be made. Mccain whined about Kosovo which was a winning proposition.  And he pushed a war that was a losing proposition.

    [ Parent ]
    Then let's talk about the (none / 0) (#192)
    by Valhalla on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:21:14 AM EST
    pushing of the losing proposition.

    I agree, McCain is attached to the Iraq war in a bad way.  So go after that.  Argue he's not fit to be CiC because of a glaringly bad judgment on his part, yes.  Everyone agrees that the war is bad and we need to end it.  Or, most of the country agrees.

    But comments about his military service just open the Dems up to criticism on possibly their weakest point -- that they do not respect the troops and our servicepeople.  It's a false stereotype, yes, but a strong and longstanding one.  For pity's sake, why does Obama run away from his strongest arguments (eg the economy) but foxtrot all around the tripwire of his weakest?

    [ Parent ]

    Clark is qualified to say that McCain would (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by Salo on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:54:43 AM EST
    be a dangerous CinC.

    [ Parent ]
    Absolutely (none / 0) (#40)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:21:46 PM EST
    Clark attacks McCain's military resume the day before Obama gives a speech on patriotism?  Clark is ready the same night to fire back clearly and cogently?

    They should have had a playbill for it.

    [ Parent ]

    Because (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Mary Mary on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:31:06 PM EST
    Obama loves having his big major speeches stepped on.

    [ Parent ]
    I heard lots on McCain (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:42:46 PM EST
    Clark/Obama drama.... Speech? what speech.

    This reminded me of how Obama would come out with a new endorsement etc. to knock Clinton out of the media for primary wins.

    If this was planned, what possessed them to knock out coverage of their own speech?

    [ Parent ]

    If there is a plan, (none / 0) (#68)
    by A little night musing on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:46:20 PM EST
    perhaps this too is part of the plan,
    as when the subway turns on a switch,
    the wheels screeching
    against the rails,
    & the lights go out;
    but are on again in a moment.

    (Charles Reznikoff)

    [I've been saving this up for just such a moment.]
     

    [ Parent ]

    Major speech? (none / 0) (#55)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 10:35:32 PM EST
    Who would have listened or read this speech today with the Clark "gaffe"?

    This is a dead time in the race.  Giving a great speech will do nothing for you if no one is listening.  

    This speech would have been just another July 4th rah rah speech with no impact whatsoever.  Instead he got to speak about how much he loves America and the military.

    What is the downside for Obama here? None.  What is the downside for Clark?  Assuming that this was a planned move, none.  

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, please (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 11:25:23 PM EST
    We're talking about Obama here.  The MSM gives major fawning coverage of his every utterance.  OF COURSE the patriotism speech would have gotten a lot of attention.

    [ Parent ]