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Making History and Denying History

This is an Open Thread. But it is also an explanation for why I feel Barack Obama should give Hillary Clinton some space tonight.

Barack Obama will be the Democratic nominee for President. Yes, this is historic - an African American will be our nominee. It is something for our Party to be proud of. But a different dream will die tonight, and I would hope Obama and his supporters will be sensitive to it. The chance of a woman being our Presidential nominee in this election will die tonight. For many women, this is a hard night because of it.

The night of the first debate when only Obama and Clinton were left standing was one of our proudest. And it was not just because of Barack Obama. It was also because of Hillary Clinton. Remember women and fathers of daughters (like me) who still must dream of the day when a woman will be our Presidential nominee. That dream must NEVER die. I would hope Obama and his supporters will have a thought about that tonight. Not just the history made. But the history NOT made.

Speaking for me only

Comments closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Still never going vote for the empty suit. (5.00 / 21) (#1)
    by Shainzona on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:32 PM EST
    Historic?  Well, an historically big mistake to have Barck Obama as the Dem nominee.

    I am so out of the Democratic Party and nothing, nothing will bring me back.

    Same here. (5.00 / 15) (#38)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:16:19 PM EST
    I'll soon be leaving Talk Left because there's not one single nice thing I can say about BO and I know Jeralyn is supporting the Dem ticket.

    I am finished with the Democratic Party unless Hillary takes this to the convention.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, BTD, the "dream" of a woman (5.00 / 15) (#85)
    by angie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:25:11 PM EST
    president is dead as a doornail if Obama gets the nomination after the unrelenting sexism spewed at Hillary by him and the msm while the Dem. Part stood silently by. Meanwhile, if Hillary says a historically accurate fact that LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act into law, then the entire Party gangs up on her as a racist. I actually think BTD is sincere, but let me put it as plainly as I can: As a woman, if Obama (who, other then having this alleged charisma, is so obviously not qualified for President) gets the nomination after all that has happened, it proves that this country -- especially the Dem. party "elders" are just not ready for a woman president. I take no pride in that, and the Party should not either. Pretty words now does not excuse the conduct I witnessed from the Dem. Party this primary.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't blame the country! (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by hlr on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:30:30 PM EST
    Blame the party elders and the media.

    I specifically blame BO for not 100% repudiating Pfleger's remarks about Hillary -- those remarks were a proxy for all white women. It's absurd to say that he could not address this specifically while the primary was still in process b/c that's equivalent to saying that he'd benefit as long as he kept his mouth shut. Too late now.

    The country still has promise.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't Blame the Country! (1.00 / 3) (#217)
    by Spike on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:16:44 PM EST
    When all is said and done, Hillary Clinton will ultimately blame herself. She has run a valiant -- but flawed -- campaign. The inevitability theme was all wrong for the times. She never should have had so much confidence in Mark Penn. She never should have been so confident that she was going to run the table on Super Tuesday. When Obama battled her to a draw on Super Tuesday -- and then ran off a long string of unanswered victories -- the campaign was lost. In reality, this was over in Wisconsin. The fact that she has battled back from that low point to make it close is a miracle. Don't denigrate her achievement by making her a victim. She didn't win, but she fought like a champ.

    [ Parent ]
    If Hill were VP (none / 0) (#123)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:31:26 PM EST
    she'd be set up to run in 2016 providing Obama proved capable. I'm still not entirely convincedwith his philosophy or positions but I do TRUST Hillary's political instincts and would take it as a sign if she were to join the ticket. I don't buy that she'd bean obscure figure. Hillary Clinton is not the obscure type. She's smart, opinionated, strong and capable. She'll fight for her positions. There is no way she'd be obscure and I think the Obama camp is well aware of thatand THAT is why they are hedging on hving her on the ticket).  

    [ Parent ]
    She'll Be 68 (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:33:01 PM EST
    But then one of the good things about being a woman is that we tend to live longer. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    Younger than McCain (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:29 PM EST
    and as far as I know SHE hasn't had a bout with cancer.

    [ Parent ]
    Flip the ticket (5.00 / 7) (#156)
    by Democratic Cat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:19 PM EST
    and we have 16 years of Dems in the White House. Eight with Hillary to make the da** government work again and right the ship of state, and then eight with Obama. Too bad he couldn't take the long view of things.

    [ Parent ]
    Just got a call (5.00 / 4) (#178)
    by Eleanor A on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:50:16 PM EST
    from a friend in Kentucky, who received a call from an Obama supporter trying to get her to change her vote at the KY state convention.  Apparently she was told that "Hillary had told her staff to stop campaigning and had called everyone to NYC for a meeting."

    I'd be amazed were this not happening all over the nation.

    Here's the thing, folks:  Jeralyn has told people she'll support the eventual nominee, but she's also repeatedly said she thinks this will go to the Convention.

    I find her to be eminently reasonable about most things, so I can't say for sure what I'll do (other than respect her wishes to the best of my ability...)

    [ Parent ]

    It's about sexism, stupid. (5.00 / 6) (#184)
    by fkperiera on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:54:19 PM EST
    I probably won't vote for Obama in the fall; I'd rather write in Clinton's name.  

    I think it's sad that, at every point in American history when the choice comes down to an African-American man or a woman, women have to take a back seat.  Women got the right to vote over 80 years after black men did.  Will it be another 80 years before a woman has another shot at the top spot?

    BTD-- what is particularly sad is that while Obama will likely be the nominee no one who supports him seems to recognize that if he lost this primary season the opportunity for him or someone like him-- a black man-- to run would still be there.  Colin Powell, though a Republican, was once touted as a possible first African-American president-- one who, like Obama, may have had a real shot.  (I say 'may have' because his standing in the GOP probably means that won't happen.)  

    With Clinton, that's probably not the case.  Women who are 'impervious' to the sexism of American society, women strong enough and smart enough don't get that far that often.  The NY Times ran an article to this effect only a few weeks ago.  There really is no one to step up into Clinton's place as a viable female candidate in four, eight or 20 years.

    So you see, it's much bigger than just Clinton losing. It is, in some sense, giving up on a woman having a legitimate shot at being the Commander in Chief for, probably, a generation or more.  Will Clinton live to see the day that a woman is president?  I doubt it.

    At base, Obama is a man and men have always been at the top.  Even in Congress, the precentage of women is unrepresentative of the proportion of women in the US.  Even though more women graduate from college than men, there are fewer women as CEOs and executives than men.  This is not just a matter of women making different choices, this is a matter of women facing barriers that their male colleagues-- black, Asian, whatever-- do not have.  There is sexism at work here, just as there was in the primary campaign, allowed by the media and stoked by Obama's campaign and surrogates.

    And the rank sexism that produced Obama's victory ensures that feminist men, like myself, won't be voting for him.

    [ Parent ]

    Their sexism is clear (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by Nike on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:11:00 PM EST
    I agree. Their sexism comes out strongly in the new "appeal" that they are making to women voters: the Roe v. Wade hostage charge. If you (women) don't vote for our guy, then you will be responsible for the overturning of reproductive rights for you (women). Of course, that argument assumes 1. that women are the only ones with any responsibility for reproductive acts (at a personal and a political level); 2. that you trust Obama to spend one dime supporting women or women's rights. I, for one, don't.

    [ Parent ]
    Same here (5.00 / 2) (#220)
    by kenoshaMarge on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:19:45 PM EST
    I know now that I will never live long enough to see a woman in the White House. Guess it doesn't matter. Woman's place, as always, is second place.

    [ Parent ]
    I concur (5.00 / 7) (#2)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:04:56 PM EST
    and hope that the Americablog narrative about tonight does NOT carry.

    I dont even know (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:13:51 PM EST
    what the "americablog narrative" is but I join you in hoping it does not.

    [ Parent ]
    Someone better muzzle that guy. (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by pie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:38 PM EST
    He's lost it.

    [ Parent ]
    muzzle (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:08 PM EST
    leash, straitjacket.
    whatever it takes.


    [ Parent ]
    oh man (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    just dropped by and found this nugget:

    Hillary always claims she's fully vetted, but that's not true. And, the vetting process includes the spouse.

    you really cant make this stuff up.

    [ Parent ]

    I don't know what it is either (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:21:11 PM EST
    but I'm pretty sure I won't like it.

    To all of you who can't take anymore beyond tonight, happy trails. It's been fun and not so fun agonizing with you the last few months.

    Hope we meet again down the line.

    [ Parent ]

    It was fun. (5.00 / 6) (#138)
    by Fabian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:07 PM EST
    Not always pleasant, but always informative - which is the main reason I come here.  Echo chambers are a dime a dozen, but reality based blogs have become a vanishing breed.

    I can't really support Obama.  I keep hoping there's a chance he'll wise up, but I doubt.  He can win or lose without me.

    [ Parent ]

    Do you realize (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Steve M on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:05:45 PM EST
    how tough Edwards dropping out was for me as a white male?

    heh (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:50 PM EST
    Truth told, I thought he handled that in a dignified way, but minimized his influence. I hope Hillary does not make the same mistake.

    [ Parent ]
    Made worse because (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by pie on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:08:15 PM EST
    I knew what was coming because of who was left standing.

    [ Parent ]
    Ditto Shainzona!!! (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by athyrio on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:05:52 PM EST


    How many of those one on one debates... (5.00 / 10) (#5)
    by citizen53 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:32 PM EST
    were there?

    Were we, as Americans, really allowed to get into the campaign?

    Or was it just a media circus?

    What a great example we set for other democracies.

    As usual, quite incisive. (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by TomP on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:12:50 PM EST
    Issues became less important after Edwards dropped out. He brought a progressive voice.

    [ Parent ]
    Issues never were important, Tom... (5.00 / 10) (#74)
    by citizen53 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:44 PM EST
    as this country is too wrapped up in itself to care about issues.

    More reality TV!  More 24 hour news cycle!  Soon, the ability of Americans to think for themselves on a critical level will be gone, yet we will keep shouting that we are #1.

    I admire that you have been able to make peace with some of the Obama supporters, but I'm afraid that their comments over the months have shown more of their true selves.  That is why I have always believed that this type of hope is an illusion.  

    Watch out.  They will turn on you in a flash.

    [ Parent ]

    The problem with the MSM is (none / 0) (#183)
    by WelshWoman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:54:06 PM EST
    it's too busy trying to be the news instead of reporting it.

    Sorry but our BBC and ITV coverage is alot better and its issues based.

    Our tabloid press leaves a lot to be desired though, that's all about who they can build up so they can rip them down later.

    [ Parent ]

    not really (5.00 / 1) (#224)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:22:13 PM EST
    If your issue was smearing Clinton well ok then.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Grey on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:51 PM EST
    I just appreciate the consideration, and wanted to tell you that.

    It's a very, very tough day.


    I Wouldn't Be Surprised the First Woman President (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    turns out to be a Republican.

    I could easily imagine Kay Bailey Hutchison (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:08:12 PM EST
    But no, I will never vote for her.

    [ Parent ]
    I expect Hutchison to be McCain's VP pick (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:26 PM EST
    I thought she might be a Presidential possibility in 2012, but then she would be 70 years old in 2012 so I don't think that's likely.

    [ Parent ]
    If he's smart (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:20:09 PM EST
    He'd consider Snowe. She is a moderate in a blue state and female.

    [ Parent ]
    Sarah Palin... (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by OrangeFur on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:51 PM EST
    would be a terrific choice for McCain, from what I know of her.

    [ Parent ]
    A Woman (5.00 / 0) (#103)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:28:18 PM EST
    Would be very smart.  They clearly see an opportunity to pick up women voters (so nice for the GOP that so many democrats and fauxgressives rushed to embrace misogyny - see we have unity already).  And who can blame them, they won in 2004 largely because white women went for Kerry, whereas Gore basically split them with Bush.  So they don't even have to win over women they haven't won before.  They just have to find a way to keep the 2004 coalition together.  

    [ Parent ]
    I agree with this... (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by Dawn Davenport on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:04:46 PM EST
    ...it would be very smart indeed for the McCain to pick a woman for v.p.

    I went as far as to look up Sarah Palin's Wikipedia page the other day to check out her positions (I still haven't decided how I'm voting in November).

    Aside from belonging to Feminists for Life (same org for which Justice Roberts' wife was once v.p.), her background looks pretty good, especially on environmental matters.

    If it shakes out to be McCain-Palin vs. Obama-anydem (particularly if anydem is an anti-choicer like Casey), my decision will be made all the more difficult.

    [ Parent ]

    Oops (none / 0) (#111)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:29:12 PM EST
    Should read that white women went for Bush over Kerry...

    [ Parent ]
    personally (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:56 PM EST
    I think if he picks any woman besides Hillary (or at least without OFFERING it to HIllary) all hell will break loose.
    as well it should.


    [ Parent ]
    I think they meant McCain (5.00 / 0) (#80)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:24:27 PM EST
    But you are right about Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    sorry (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:52 PM EST
    need to pay attention.
    McCain would be very smart to pick a woman.


    [ Parent ]
    Reagan (none / 0) (#90)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:25:58 PM EST
    Certainly tempered his image in 1980 by picking George H.W. Bush, who was considered moderate.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well They Definitely Wouldn't Remain Silent (5.00 / 18) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:15 PM EST
    while the media talked trash about their candidate.  That was one of the most shameful aspects of this entire campaign.

    [ Parent ]
    No kidding. (5.00 / 8) (#130)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:32:44 PM EST
    Not one party leader came out to defend her against the onslaught of all the sexist/racist crap thrown her way. Not one. I will never forgive them.

    [ Parent ]
    Me Neither (5.00 / 8) (#161)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:58 PM EST
    And I intend to tell them every opportunity I get.  I've decided to take this photo, courtesy of Iphie at Corrente, and I'm going to attach it to the response card of every solicitation I get from the DSCC, the DCCC, and the DNC.  

    Then, I'm going to re-register as an unaffiliated voter, cut my Dem voter registration into bits, and send it to Howard Dean (cc'ing Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Dianne Feinsten, Barbara Boxer, my congressional rep., whose an Obama SD, and Art Torres, head of the Democratic Party).  I'm going to express my extreme disappointment in the silence of the party and explain that I don't trust any party that condones misogyny to have my best interests at heart.  Then I'm going to tell them that I've decided it's in my best interest to be an unaffiliated voter because 1) I will feel no need to vote for any Democrat simply out of loyalty, but instead will vote only for candidates who earn my vote, and 2) the Democratic Party clearly values independent voters more than me, even letting them choose its nominee, and so now I'm an independent voter, they can woo me, too.

    [ Parent ]

    Link (none / 0) (#171)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:41:20 PM EST
    Forgot the link to the photo.

    [ Parent ]
    REMAINED SILENT?!?! (5.00 / 4) (#174)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:41:37 PM EST
    I would have given anything for them to remain silent - THEY JOINED IN!

    [ Parent ]
    I wouldnt be surprised if (5.00 / 7) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:18:10 PM EST
    the first AA president is a republican

    [ Parent ]
    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Eleanor A on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:00:35 PM EST
    I live in TN, which has never had a woman governor or Senator.  Only five women have ever been elected to Congress from here, and the only current one we have is the odious Marsha Blackburn.

    (And!  My state party just had as the speaker at the state's yearly fundraiser one Claire McCaskill, shill for Obama - and nobody to represent Hillary, despite her 14-point win here in the primary.

    It's sickening.  I'm pretty thoroughly disheartened at this point.)

    [ Parent ]

    Numbers in US (none / 0) (#239)
    by MichaelGale on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:45:09 PM EST
    are dismal.  74 female members of Congress out of 435.

    There are 12 Female presidents who lead foreign countries. We have a woman run and she is called a b***h and displayed in our airport shops as a nutcracker with her legs open.

    What more is there to say?

    [ Parent ]

    If Hillary doesn't take this all the way, (5.00 / 1) (#231)
    by samanthasmom on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:26:24 PM EST
    I am positive that the first woman President will be a Republican.

    [ Parent ]
    I used to say that (none / 0) (#13)
    by Grey on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:08:23 PM EST
    about the first African American nominee (or President).


    [ Parent ]
    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:16 PM EST
    Could still be right about the president. Although, ironically they would probably have to win it without the black vote.

    [ Parent ]
    not based on this election (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:18:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Trust me (none / 0) (#66)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:21:44 PM EST
    I have a lot of black friends, all of whom voted for Obama, many of whom admitted that a major reason they support him over Hillary was race, who would never vote for a black republican.  It would be like selling out.  Race is important to them but it's not the only thing.

    [ Parent ]
    if you say so (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:45 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I would not be at all surprised (none / 0) (#129)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:32:19 PM EST
    Too bad I may have to vote against the first woman candidate. After not enthusiastically supporting the first A-A.  Not at all how I had thought it would turn out.

    Maybe I'll get to like Obama more as time goes on.  Where's that Kool-aid?  Ah, sweet, sweet Kool-aid!

    [ Parent ]

    Why tonight? (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by indiependy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:09:03 PM EST
    Jeralyn just reported that Terry McCauliffe said Hillary absolutely will not drop out tonight. They're still making superdelegate calls and fighting this thing until the end, presumably Denver. So why would there have to be any "space" given tonight? Her camp has made it clear nothing is over.

    This is called (5.00 / 15) (#75)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:45 PM EST
    "uniting the party" because after all the nasty, racist, hateful, disgusting things the Obama campaign and his supporters have done to Hillary and her supporters...we're now going to be patronized, schmoozed, stroked and coddled to come together and sing Kumbaya. That's how it works. I'm in no mood for it and never will be.

    I will never vote for anyone who paints Bill and Hillary Clinton as racists. I'm done.

    [ Parent ]

    Sad, but true... (5.00 / 4) (#140)
    by citizen53 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:12 PM EST
    to see so many proponents of the politics of hope and unity act with such cynicism and divisiveness.

    It's like MLK preaching nonviolence while his surrogrates are tossing bricks behind his back.

    If you call for a new way, then should not you act that way, notwithstanding what others do?

    [ Parent ]

    I agree, BTD. (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by TomP on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:10:30 PM EST
    There were two dreams based on identity (race and gender) in the primary.  

    Identity is a zero sum game.  One will win and another will lose.  

    I prefer class warefare, but that's just me. :-)

    I believe that it will all work out and that Obama and Clinton will unify the party, one way or another.

    Dang, you made me cry. What a nice post. (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Teresa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:10:41 PM EST
    I always figured if you ever made me cry it would be because you scared me to death.

    Give your little girl a hug BTD. And one day, you have to tell us all what happened that day in NY when you took her shopping. I'll never forget that diary and I've always wondered what it was that she or you did that you wouldn't tell us.

    I have a 9 year old daughter (4.80 / 5) (#61)
    by Dave B on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:20:48 PM EST
    who has watched this campaign like a hawk because she wants to be president someday.  Personally, I'd rather see her be a doctor or something...

    [ Parent ]
    Many women and African Americans and others (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by TomP on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:49 PM EST
    could be described as "affirmative action" candidates.

    Both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were "qualified."

    It's funny to me (5.00 / 9) (#25)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:11:58 PM EST
    That he who never wanted to be identified as the "black candidate" now gets to carry the flag in the stadium of being the first black candidate.  It just does not make sense.  And frankly, the media was more enamored with the "first black" vs. the first woman.  So, that goes to show you how transcended and transformed we are.  

    As my momma thought me... (5.00 / 8) (#30)
    by Marvin42 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:03 PM EST
    if you have nothing good to say, say nothing. Hint hint.

    He Said "Good" Riddance (1.00 / 2) (#150)
    by flashman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:36:42 PM EST
    what more do you want?

    [ Parent ]
    who are you directing your comment to (1.00 / 2) (#195)
    by manish on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:01:34 PM EST
    I hope you are directing your comment to Shainzona who also had nothing good to say.

    [ Parent ]
    How is the dream lost (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by cawaltz on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:14:38 PM EST
    if there is unity ticket? If there isn't a unity ticket btw feel free to have the party without me.

    I didn't find the moment that they were debating as overwhelmingly transformative either though. Then again, race and gender have taken a back seat to issues for me. Supporting Hillary, as a woman, has been secondary to, supporting Hillary because she is better qualified.

    Fair points (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:19:33 PM EST
    I clarified my post.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks but the big lesson is the hatred for women (5.00 / 19) (#35)
    by Nike on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:15:38 PM EST
    Thanks for these thoughts, which are gracious and speak to the kinds of principles we all ought to have. It is clear, though, that neither the Obama campaign and certainly his key supporters and surrogates and the media itself, in even more profound ways, perpetuated and extended hatred or at least profound contempt for women. It is clear that I will not have the chance to vote for a woman as president in my lifetime. My sense--the viciousness out there was remarkable and pervasive--is that sexism is so fundamental to our culture that the risk of having a woman come this close is not a step towards that future but an assurance against it.

    A profound loss (5.00 / 4) (#122)
    by marisol on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:30:41 PM EST
    and I agree with your analysis about sexism.  I'm far from naive, but I've been shocked at what this campaign has revealed.
    I feel somewhat like I did about 25 years ago when the ERA for women failed.  We're still working for equality.  And it's not going to be in my lifetime, either.

    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps the Clintonites... (none / 0) (#152)
    by citizen53 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:36:53 PM EST
    should push Obama to call for a new ERA.

    [ Parent ]
    The ego won't let him (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:15:53 PM EST
    He wants to squash that little beotch once and for all.  And he'll get caught up in the Americablog/Olbermann hatefest and won't be able to help himself.

    In the end, he's a very small man.

    But, he'll try to get as much out of her (5.00 / 7) (#67)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:21:48 PM EST
    as he can before he throws her off the bus with the others.

    He has no moral compass. If he ends up successful in August, and again in November, they won't need any transition time in the WH, it's just a continuation of the same.

    [ Parent ]

    If Hillary doesn't take this (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:40:13 PM EST
    to the convention, she and Bill should take Chelsea and go on a trip around the world and let BO fend for himself. She owes him NOTHING.

    [ Parent ]
    I am more addened tonight (5.00 / 15) (#39)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:16:44 PM EST
    because we are about to nominate an underqualified candidate for president over a much better, more electable, qualified candidate.

    Let's also remember the mothers and (5.00 / 9) (#40)
    by Teresa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:16:50 PM EST
    grandmothers who really will never see that dream. I hurt for my mother with all my heart. I doubt I will see it, but I know she won't.

    Jumping the gun, again (5.00 / 9) (#41)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:03 PM EST
    This is all just media hype.

    I will be very disappointed in Hillary if she gives up after all this.

    My decision to find something outside of supporting or voting for Obama rests largely in the laps of the media, the DNC, Axelrod & pals, and Obama, himself.

    He is flawed beyond anything that was wrong with GWB, and the DNC has broken all their own rules to force him on us in concert with the media lies and distortions about the Clintons. It is not possible for me to just brush it off at though it hasn't been enormously offensive and in complete contrast to my beliefs.


    Thanks (5.00 / 12) (#43)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:10 PM EST
    We'll enjoy your loss in November

    This is too early a post mortem (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by nulee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:10 PM EST
    -- I thought TL was the only place not following the MSM.

    Thank you, BTD. (5.00 / 3) (#46)
    by suki on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:33 PM EST
    Your girls are very blessed to have a father who wrote that.

    BTD... (5.00 / 18) (#48)
    by madamab on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:17:37 PM EST
    Good luck trying to change peoples' minds.

    As for me, I'm not throwing in the towel unless HRC does. At that point, Obama can do whatever he pleases. I won't be interested.

    Why? Not because I'm a hysterical female-type person, or because my feelings have been hurt by Obama. It's simply that I don't believe in Obama's version of the Democratic Party. Moreover, I don't believe his nomination, should it happen, is going to be legitimate considering Saturday's dog-and-pony show regarding FL and MI.

    We now have only a razor-thin chance of re-infusing our party with its former FDR values. We can only do that if Hillary is the nominee, for Obama has proclaimed in every way possible that he doesn't care for those values at all.

    I don't see anything whatsoever to celebrate if Obama should become the nominee. In fact, I believe it will be a tragic and Party-destroying nomination.

    Historic, indeed, but not in the sense I suspect you mean.

    I second every line of your post (5.00 / 8) (#70)
    by bridget on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:22:55 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Thank you. :-) (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by madamab on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:24:41 PM EST
    Peace out, everyone.

    [ Parent ]
    Can I third? (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by otherlisa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    fourth (5.00 / 6) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:29:07 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And I 3rd it. (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by JDEUNO on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:33:56 PM EST
    The Dems are toast in November, thanks to Obama and the DNC.

    [ Parent ]
    So, so true. (5.00 / 4) (#113)
    by vicsan on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:29:26 PM EST
    The Democratic Party will be dead. Millions are leaving it.

    [ Parent ]
    Historically Sad. (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:30:01 PM EST
     

    [ Parent ]
    Can I fifth? (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Andy08 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:53:13 PM EST
    I couldn't agree more with you madamab. Thank you for expressing it so well.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks BTD. You are a real gentleman (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by bjorn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:19:19 PM EST
    and it gives me hope.  

    Help Me Out Here (5.00 / 13) (#60)
    by flashman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:20:44 PM EST
    I really, really, really want to be proud tonight.  However, this selection process has been tainted.  Not only was the process tilted in favor of the African American male, but the mood of the voters was dishonestly swayed by numerous instances of race-baiting.  We are no further in race relations as before, evidenced by the awful spectacle at Trinity Church.  

    I wish I felt as proud as you.  Something about this whole circus is making me kinda ill.

    An historic mistake if Obama is the nominee. (5.00 / 12) (#65)
    by alexei on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:21:29 PM EST
    Obama will not win in the GE.  I will not vote for him even if Clinton is on the ticket as VP. Forget about it. And it isn't over until either she concedes (which I hope she doesn't) or the votes are tallied at the Convention and a nominee is then made.  SDs can change their vote anytime until then and so can pledged delegates (unless state law doesn't allow).  Two months is a lifetime in politics and the the rumors about the Republicans coming out full bore on the Obamas should make every SD stop before being a lemming.

    But, I have no faith in the Democratic Party after the fiasco about MI and FL.

    Personally (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by nellre on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:23:38 PM EST
    I think Hillary won. It's only because of a dysfunctional system that Obama is the "presumptive nominee".
    Secondly I think Hillary would beat McCain easily... but I don't think Obama will. So that's a huge disappointment to me.
    We'll just have to wait and see how this all pans out.

    I'm not so proud (5.00 / 8) (#81)
    by suisser on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:24:31 PM EST
    I respect all of you who can approach this evening with pride.  I wish I felt that. What I feel is grubby. And as a democrat I feel a sense of sorrow that my party has selected this candidate.  I feel a profound sense of wasted opportunity and abandoned possibility.  The dems have chosen the wrong candidate, for all the wrong reasons and I can't feel proud about that.

    amen (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:25:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    what?! you don't like puppets? (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by Josey on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:34:00 PM EST
    Obama has so many characteristics similar to Bush that it's difficult for me to get excited about him. So much immaturity, arrogance, hubris...
    And his ability to ruin the reputations of good people who disagree with him, by simply smearing them as "racists" is downright scary.

    [ Parent ]
    Which is why you need to be given space (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by coigue on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:36:47 PM EST
    and respected for awhile.

    [ Parent ]
    awhile? (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:57:14 PM EST
    don't kid yourself.  no amount of space is going to make me come any closer to voting for obama.  

    [ Parent ]
    Stay out of my space requirements (5.00 / 0) (#228)
    by suisser on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:24:35 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    If the shoe (none / 0) (#158)
    by 1jane on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:39 PM EST
    were on the other foot the same words would apply suisser.

    [ Parent ]
    You're right (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by blogtopus on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:14:41 PM EST
    but it would be felt by a lot fewer people.

    [ Parent ]
    Well said. n/t (5.00 / 0) (#91)
    by LarryInNYC on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:26:08 PM EST


    I sincerely doubt it (5.00 / 11) (#92)
    by ccpup on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:26:22 PM EST
    Obama hasn't shown himself to be either sensitive or gracious in this campaign.  From covertly encouraging the crowd's booing Hillary to brushing her off his shoulder or wiping her off his shoe, he's shown himself to be just another arrogant bully who's charmed his way to the precipice of great accomplishment.

    Problem is, as with all precipices, it's a very long, brutal fall to the bottom if one isn't careful.  And, based on what I've seen so far, the excitement of "his" moment has overtaken the need for him to be more careful.

    I predict a fall.  And I don't see Hillary conceding or dropping out or whatever you want to call it.  I see her taking MI to the Credentials Committee and taking this to the Convention.

    If he is the Nominee, it'll be the first time since 1992 that I won't be voting or donating money.  Simple as that.

    Not in my lifetime (5.00 / 12) (#94)
    by trillian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:26:54 PM EST
    The dream will die for me for good.

    Do you really see any other woman willing to run the gauntlet of misogyny in the near future?

    This will kill that idea for at least a generation.

    Hillary had it all....but still loses to the unqualified man.

    Sad.

    I hope so (4.00 / 1) (#112)
    by coigue on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:29:18 PM EST
    Do you really see any other woman willing to run the gauntlet of misogyny in the near future?

    It's the only way progress will be mde

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for your sensitivity all along BTD (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by karen for Clinton on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:24 PM EST
    Obama has given no consideration of kindness, I expect him to keep right on being himself.

    I'll watch her win or wins or split tonight and cheer for her and listen to what she has to say about the future as well as her summation of the race we've all been through together.

    I'll support her all the way to Denver if that is what she wants to do.

    Nobody threw in the towel yet, as far as I know.

    The wheel's still in spin.

    historically divisive (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:48 PM EST
    I don't what else obama qualifies as at this point.

    If/when he becomes the nominee (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Chimster on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:57 PM EST
    It'll be up to Obama to unite the party, not Hillary. He needs us more than we need him. But I doubt he'll reach his arm across the aisle of his own party even at his own political peril.

    Hopefully some Obama supporter will explain to me why I should  support Obama in the primaries after clinching the necessary delegates. I already know we can't afford to let the Republicans win.  

    I want to hear why Obama supporters REALLY want him in the White House. Is it his policies? His message of hope? The first African American president? I've got an open mind to hear logic and reason. But so far, I ain't buying what he's selling.

    As Bob Herbert stated in today's (5.00 / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:40:56 PM EST
    NYT, Obama needs to put together an economic plan fast and figure out how to communicate it to voters.  

    [ Parent ]
    It's Amazing (5.00 / 8) (#214)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:16:06 PM EST
    that Bob Herbert doesn't wonder why Obama doesn't have an economic plan that he talks about already.  That right there should be a signal that something is wrong.  An Obama media supporter saying Obama should now develop an economic plan and start talking about it when the "economy" has been the number one issue for at least two months.

    [ Parent ]
    It's Amazing (5.00 / 0) (#216)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:16:24 PM EST
    that Bob Herbert doesn't wonder why Obama doesn't have an economic plan that he talks about already.  That right there should be a signal that something is wrong.  An Obama media supporter saying Obama should now develop an economic plan and start talking about it when the "economy" has been the number one issue for at least two months.

    [ Parent ]
    It's Amazing (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:18:27 PM EST
    that Bob Herbert doesn't wonder why Obama doesn't have an economic plan that he talks about already.  That right there should be a signal that something is wrong.  An Obama media supporter saying Obama should now develop an economic plan and start talking about it when the "economy" has been the number one issue for at least two months.

    [ Parent ]
    I'll give it a shot (1.00 / 1) (#173)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:41:32 PM EST
    For me it's mostly about foreign policy.  I really think we need a drastic change as far as how we deal with foreign heads of state we disagree with.  I know this backfired on Carter, but I think that the times have changed and we need to change with them.  I think Bush has damaged our international reputation so badly, that we need to show the world concrete drastic shifts in tactics to salvage our role as an international leader.  I think Obama will bring this.

    My next reason kind of goes along with the first which is that he has been very vocal about supporting habeus corpus and closing Guantanamo bay for a long time.  His experience teaching constitutional law makes me think he would be much more inclined to strictly uphold our rights under the law.

    Finally, I think one of the biggest challenges facing the world in the future is what to do about the environment and climate change.  And to get anything done in this arena I really feel like we need to reach across the isle and pass whatever bills we can pass, as soon as possible.  That means compromising (aka Cheney energy bill - a huge misnomer in my mind).  And not giving a "gas tax holiday".

    [ Parent ]

    Not bad, thanks. (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Chimster on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:03:03 PM EST
    Though I don't really want my Democratic president to reach across the political aisle for at least two years. I want him/her to reach across their own party first. The Repubs can wait. I want many things returned to the way they were before W mucked it up. I "hope" he can do it.

    [ Parent ]
    Chris matthews is (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by LoisInCo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:27:59 PM EST
    getting the "giggles" waiting for tonight.

    IGNORE MSNBC (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:28:46 PM EST
    Especially tonight.

    [ Parent ]
    good lord yes (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:38:44 PM EST
    I plan on keeping whatever station I watch mute until I see Hillary start talking.

    [ Parent ]
    No, Don't Ignore MSNBC (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:07:09 PM EST
    It is a reminder of what Obama and the DNC sat silent in the face of.  When Hillary complained about the Shuster comment about Chelsea, the DNC and Obama could have shown Unity and joined in. If pressure had been put on these guys by more than just Clinton, it wouldn't be this bad now. But they wouldn't even speak up against the misogyny when the victim was Chelsea.

    So I don't feel at all guilty when I hear these guys spew - and they are going to be awful tonight - that I hold it against Obama, Dean, Pelosi, Reid and the rest of our so-called "leaders" who are now calling for Unity. If they wanted Unity, there were plenty of things they could've done to get it. Instead, they sat silent through this vile crap and now are going to want me to forget any of it happened and that they did nothing as Obama and others praise Hillary to high heaven in the coming days.

    I can tell you one thing, Republicans may pursue loathsome misogynistic policies, but they would never sit in silence while Keith Olbermann, Tweety, Russert, et al, treated a woman Republican Senator this way. No frakking way.  

    And I am not going to forget that with few exceptions the Democrats, including our new Leader who is going to bring us all together.

    * I'm not going to watch MSNBC because I don't reward misogyny and because cable news is universally awful, but I won't ignore them either or pretend they aren't doing exactly what they are going to do.

    [ Parent ]

    turn him off, he is a fool (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by bjorn on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:30:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    well said Armando (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by coigue on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:28:12 PM EST
    well said

    Once Obama is the nominee, McCains' (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by MarkL on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:28:38 PM EST
    donations will see a sharp spike, I'm sure.

    They already have from what I hear (5.00 / 0) (#236)
    by americanincanada on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 05:30:54 PM EST
    as has his website membership.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree, BTD (5.00 / 4) (#106)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04