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The Dem Debacle: On Saturday's Disenfranchisement

The best article I've read on the Saturday debacle of the DNC's Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting in which it decided to seat Michigan and Florida delegates with 1/2 vote each and award delegates who voted for Hillary to Barack Obama, is Dana Milbank's in the Washington Post.

It's a great read, you will feel like you were in the room witnessing the dissension, the childishness and the pettiness of all involved, from the committee members to Rep. Robert Wexler, and the resentment it caused among the spectators, which by now has spread across the party.

It also brings home the utter political stupidity of the committee's final ruling. I'll put a few quotes below, but there are so many more just go read the whole thing. [More...]

On the ruling itself:

The chaos and vitriol seemed to confirm Democrats' fears that they might blow an election that should otherwise be an easy victory for them. Nor did the compromise fit well with the Democrats' oft-voiced commitment to voting rights. They decided they would give Florida and Michigan half of their voting rights -- one of the more arbitrary compromises since the 1787 decision that a slave should count as three-fifths of a person -- and voted to award Obama 59 Michigan delegates, each with half a vote, even though his name wasn't even on the ballot in the state.

On Rep. Robert Wexler who I will never be able to look at again without picturing him shouting and banging his fists on the table.

Arguing for Obama, Rep. Robert Wexler of Florida insisted that his state's delegates should get only half of their votes.

...When another panelist asked what would be wrong with giving Florida its "full vote," a self-impressed Wexler went into a long, table-pounding speech about how "no one in the state of Florida has championed voters' rights more than I."

Howard Dean told the assembled group:

"We are strong enough to struggle and disagree and to even be angry and disappointed and still come together at the end of the day and be united," Dean told his troops.

All together now, 1,2 3. I just hope the Dems, in shooting themselves in the foot yesterday , didn't shoot their chance of victory over the moon.

Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    i'll just say this (5.00 / 14) (#1)
    by Turkana on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:21:16 AM EST
    if the comments and emails i'm getting from clinton supporters at tlc are any reflection, the committee's ruling was disastrous.

    What change do you see? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:22:43 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    people who were angry (5.00 / 14) (#4)
    by Turkana on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:25:45 AM EST
    are now fed up. people who were trying to deal with the anger no longer are. i have no idea if this is true outside of our blogworld bubble, but this schism is not going to be easily healed. and i'm trying.

    [ Parent ]
    If Ben Smith is to be believed (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:27:24 AM EST
    Clinton may be getting ready to drop out. The implications of that. . .unclear.

    [ Parent ]
    I'd chalk that up to ... (5.00 / 4) (#231)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:51:36 AM EST
    what Mad Magazine might call:

    The Department of Wishful Thinking.

    [ Parent ]

    that was also in the guardian yesterday (none / 0) (#12)
    by Turkana on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:29:25 AM EST
    and hints in the new york times. that's why i wrote what i did today. i think clinton will do what she can to heal the rift, but i'm not so sure that enough of her most passionate followers will follow her lead.

    [ Parent ]
    Obama: cause of divisiveness (5.00 / 21) (#32)
    by Davidson on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:39:36 AM EST
    Clinton can't change that and, frankly, neither can Obama since no one will believe such acts of political expedience.

    And forgive me but why are we all of a sudden trusting Politico, the Times, and the Guardian?  I'm not a Pollyanna by any means about her chances (if she has any) but I'll believe it when I see it.  Suspending her campaign, especially in this race, does not mean it's completely over.

    Oh, and leaving MI the way it is or waiting until Obama is nominated won't help either.  If anything, she should go to the convention just to fix MI--and FL--in order to try and curb the inevitable GOP attack on the Democratic nominee in those two states.

    Lastly, the best way to help our Party unify is to have Clinton at the top of the ticket.  I don't care how unseemly it is to the Party establishment; it's the only way we have a chance.

    [ Parent ]

    And don't (5.00 / 10) (#259)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:47:01 AM EST
    forget, the Democrats who are supporting Obama are the same Democrats who refused to impeach the most criminal president in history.  I find it ironic that 13 of these Dems had no qualms about voting to impeach a DEMOCRAT, but they refused to impeach a criminal Republican.  What a party, eh?

    Make no mistake, there is a very nasty power struggle going on in the Democratic Party and the players are not fight to give Power to the People.

    [ Parent ]

    Really? That's painful to hear (5.00 / 0) (#273)
    by Radiowalla on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:11:24 AM EST
    Can you name names?  I'd like to add those 13 to my special Sh*t List.

    [ Parent ]
    Repubs also gave half votes (none / 0) (#314)
    by seesdifferent on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:20:17 AM EST
    to MI and FL; I don't see that being a way to attack Obama in those states.


    [ Parent ]
    She Can't (5.00 / 41) (#47)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:46:15 AM EST
    At least not with me.  Because my problem is not that she lost.  It's that the Democratic Party doesn't reflect my values anymore.  This has been a long time coming, what with all the cave ins to the GOP over the last eight years.  The campaign has just brought it all to the surface.  The silence in the face of the misogyny.  The race baiting.  The dismissal of Appalachia and the working class.  The reassignment of votes.  The call for Unity with brickbats.

    For the record, I started out leaning Obama believe it or not, way back in January 2007.   Then I was any Dem would be fine, wavering between Hillary and Edwards.  Around December I settled on Hillary.  But I never thought I'd get to a place where not only am I re-registering unaffiliated this week and not going to donate one dime to any democratic organization (why would I?  I'm not a democrat anyome).  But I cannot commit to voting for Obama in November (I will never vote for McCain).  You can argue about why I should vote for Obama and some of your reasons I might even agree with, but I don't know if I can make my hand do it.  I get physically sick thinking about it.  It means signing onto a campaign that has race-baited, leveraged misogyny, and now stolen votes.  If I reward that, don't I ensure that my voice will never count in the Democratic party?  That these kinds of tactics will be vindicated?    

    I take no joy in saying any of this.  I think I've voted against one democrat in a general election in the last 20 years.  You can bet not all of those were my primary choices.  So if I'm having trouble, I doubt true swing voters will "get over it." I've never gotten over 2000, why would I get over this when the GOP tactics of that year come to the Democratic Party?

    [ Parent ]

    Shorter Version (5.00 / 16) (#53)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:48:39 AM EST
    What Susan B. Anthony said.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#227)
    by laurie on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:42:47 AM EST
    beautiful picture and a reminder for all.

    [ Parent ]
    That is the quote I used (5.00 / 2) (#265)
    by Democratic Cat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:56:16 AM EST
    in my email to the DNC yesterday, telling them why I am changing my registration from Dem to Independent.

    [ Parent ]
    You're right. (none / 0) (#78)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:03:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Amen (5.00 / 6) (#218)
    by Mike H on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:44:10 AM EST
    You've quite eloquently put together why I too now feel like I cannot support the Democrats at this point.  Assuming the headlong rush to anoint Obama continues unabated, I think I will vote Green in November.

    [ Parent ]
    BDB You Expressed My Feelings (5.00 / 5) (#223)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:22:20 AM EST
    on this much better than I ever could. It is not about Hillary.

    It's that the Democratic Party doesn't reflect my values anymore.
    ...
    The silence in the face of the misogyny.  The race baiting.  The dismissal of Appalachia and the working class.  The reassignment of votes.  The call for Unity with brickbats.
    ...
    It means signing onto a campaign that has race-baited, leveraged misogyny, and now stolen votes.  If I reward that, don't I ensure that my voice will never count in the Democratic party?  That these kinds of tactics will be vindicated?

    As to actually casting my vote. I don't think Obama will be able to win Missouri. If the polls here show a McCain victory, I will definitely do a write in rather than vote for Obama. If Obama is really close here, I will have to reevaluate my decision at that time.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree (5.00 / 3) (#254)
    by melro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:41:17 AM EST
    with you about the party. My husband and I both said that we feel like re-registering as Independents even though I've voted Democrat in every single election since I was able to and I'm 55. I quit giving to the DNC, which was a monthly donation when I found out about NH jumping the gun and Dean doing nothing about it.

    I am too old to have the same idealogy that fuels the Obama campaign any longer. Ideals are a gamble in the real world. And this is no time to gamble. We're in especially bad shape this time around.

    Someone answered me yesterday that a Clinton president would be the same old gridiron lock between Dems and Repugs, and Obama would change things. Nobody but nobody is going to do any big changes, let alone an inexperienced 2-year senator with a very poor voting record in congress, until the mess this administration leaves behind is cleaned up. And that will probably take 8 years with a very seasoned politician to do it.

    Obama would have been a fantastic candidate after Hillary had 8 years of getting America back on track. I want a Clinton in there now. My memory is very good. Back when Bush Sr. was in office, the mortgage interest rates made it to 14%. I know, I was buying my house then. After 8 years of Bill, who everyone wants to crucify, the average person had money in their pockets and the U.S. had a surplus. That's one heck of a turnaround. Surely, Hillary knows that formula for success and has many more of her own. I believe in women power and am a little amazed at all the blue collar workers that want a woman president.

    My husband and most of the construction skilled trades he works with will not vote Obama. But I will. Think about it. You get to go to every single blogsite you've ever blogged on and plant a big "TOLD YOU SO" when he doesn't come across with big miraculous changes he's promised. It's  the only reason I will vote for him. To make a point to the younger generation pushing him, that a little ideology goes a long way in a very real world. Too much and it's a bust.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well, I have the advantage (4.85 / 7) (#60)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:52:44 AM EST
    of having been thrown under the bus early. But I guess we have different perspectives. I said at the time that I was going to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter what, even if it were Obama, and I'm sticking to that.

    You'll have to make up your mind, but I'm personally sure that a McCain presidency would be far worse, and that's the only other option.

    [ Parent ]

    Right, and those of us who think (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:55:27 AM EST
    Obama could be catastrophically bad won't make the same choice.

    [ Parent ]
    Why do you think... (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:00:05 AM EST
    ...Senator McCain would be less catastrohic than Senator Obama?

     I disagree with the implicit assumption, but I really don't see how Senator McCain comes out ahead.  Not on his current policy platform.  

    [ Parent ]

    Look, I don't want to re-hash this (5.00 / 22) (#79)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:03:47 AM EST
    every night. Suffice to say that even if one doesn't like McCain, if you think Obama is the Democratic version of Bush---empty suit and a fistful of promises---then it's hard to want to vote for him.
    You don't have to agree with my characterization---that's not the point.
    The point is that a lot of Democrats really despise Obama now AND think he's completely unqualified.
    You can't expect him to get many votes out of that crowd.

    [ Parent ]
    Supreme Court. (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:05:36 AM EST
    From what I understand of his voting record, I'm not confident of too many progressive policies coming out of an Obama administration, but I do think his Supreme Court picks would be much better, if only because of the anchoring bias going in as a putative Democrat vs. a known Conservative Republican.

    [ Parent ]
    He wanted to vote for John Roberts. (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:06:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    He also gave a speech that.... (5.00 / 5) (#221)
    by ineedalife on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:15:15 AM EST
    took the wind out of the Alito filibuster. Then, once it was clear that it did not have the votes, voted for it. Once again, both sides of the issue. I think with Obama we have just as good a chance as getting another Clarence Thomas on the bench as we do of getting another Thurgood Marshall.

    [ Parent ]
    And then the political implications (none / 0) (#88)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:12:14 AM EST
    were explained, and he didn't.

    If you seriously believe he would nominate someone like Roberts, you haven't read what he said at the time.

    [ Parent ]

    Um, as I recalll, he changed his mind (5.00 / 7) (#94)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:14:46 AM EST
    solely because of political appearances.
    At any rate, the SC blackmail attempt will not work on me. The Democrats have a majority in the Senate which they will probably increase.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm sorry you think it's blackmail (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:16:24 AM EST
    To me it's a very real threat. McCain is guaranteed to appoint bad justices.

    [ Parent ]
    Lacking any other reason to support (5.00 / 11) (#101)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:20:04 AM EST
    Obama, the SC is not enough. Anyway, he is headed  for a historic loss if he is the nominee.

    [ Parent ]
    For me it is more than enough (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:23:22 AM EST
    Horses for courses.

    [ Parent ]
    let me tell you what i find scary. (5.00 / 1) (#313)
    by hellothere on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:03:10 AM EST
    i find a candiate who had knowly had ongoing relationships with such folks was ayers, wright,and the rest a real worry. i find his light resume a real worry. i find his divisive way of campaigning a real worry. i find the attitude his wife expresses very distasteful. i have zero confidence in any thing he says and even less in what he will do. i have no confidence in the democratic party to do the right thing. i have not seen them do one darn thing for americans for years now, yet i see them FINALLY ORGANIZE TO SCREW FELLOW DEMOCRATS. so while appreicate i your heartfelt comments, i can't be persuaded or agree.

    [ Parent ]
    McCain must have the advice and consent... (5.00 / 14) (#186)
    by Romberry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:57:23 AM EST
    McCain would have to have the advice and consent of the senate for anyone he appointed to the federal bench at any level. All that is needed to insure that he would appoint moderate justices that respect precedent would be for Dems to gain some seats in the senate, and that is something that looks likely to happen. Of course senate Dems would also have to have a spine and actually believe in Dem values...but that's another story.

    As far as I'm concerned, the best outcome in this election is to see strong Dem gains in both houses of congress...and to have a divided government. I;d rather have a Dem congress keep a president McCain in check than have a Dem congress display obsequious  subservience to some cult of personality with a lightweight like Barack Obama in the same manner that we saw Republicans (and Dems too following 9/11 for that matter) do with Bush.

    I'm not a Hillary supporter. Never have been. It's just that I am a Barack Obama opposer and HRC is all that's left.

    I will not vote for or support Barack Obama. He has somehow managed to get a great number of Dems that I have had online relationships with for years to turn into some pod person version of a left wing Freeper. Dissent is not allowed. Criticism is blasphemy. Many of these are people I have considered friends since the 90's and more than a few have given me the old "I used to respect you/I don't know you any more/consider our friendship over" lines that I expect from lockstep Republicans, but not from Dems. And they did that months ago, before it was just HRC and BO. They did it when my guy (Edwards) was still in the race.

    I see something scary and potentially dangerous here. I will not be a part of it. This year when it comes time to mark the ballot for president, I'll either write in a name or note vote in that race at all. Under no circumstance will I vote for Barack Obama.

    [ Parent ]

    The problem with this theory (5.00 / 3) (#236)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:00:28 AM EST
    is  McCain will never NOT nominate an anti-Roe (and probably  anti-worker rights) supreme court nominee. A Democratic congress, no matter how strong cannot refuse all nominations indefinitely. And frankly having watched them over the last 8 years, I don't expect they would hold out as long as a Republican controlled congress.

    Every nominee McCan would send up will be anti-Roe. They won't be openly controversial like Bork. The Republicans aren't that stupid, no matter what you think of them. When it comes to politics, they are wolves. No, they will be stealth nominees, young and healthy able to occupy a position on the court for 40 years.

    Consider this. Since 1968, the Republicans have nominated 12 to the Supreme Court. President Clinton nominated 2. During that time period the court has gone from a liberal left court,to a right wing court.

    There was a time when Justice Stevens was considered an independent, moderate right wing justice. Now he is the court's liberal. I don't think he has evolved that much. The court has swung that far to the right. Justice Blackmun was a moderate right winger, but when he left the court, he was considered a liberal. A case can be made that he evolved his views.

    Then there is Justice Souter.  Another moderate, who makes up the "liberal wing".  Well there is no liberal wing. There is a moderate wing and and extreme right wing.

    Out of 12 justices, less than 1/4th were mistakes by conservative standards. Those are not good odds. They will not nominate any Carswells or Haynsworths or Borks. No, as I said, they will all be stealth nominees, with no obvious overt extremists.

    Because they have nominated 12 of the last 14 justices, the balance is precarious and favors conservatives. We got a break when Bill Clinton was president, in the sense that we managed to keep two seats moderate to liberal. We have gone from a 5-4 moderate to left court to a 5-4 right court. All they need is a 6th justice and there will be no brokering of decisions with justice Kennedy, which is the only brake on the court at this time (and not much of a brake).

    Which justices are most likely to be replaced? Stevens and Ginsburg. Two possible vacancies, both of the "liberal wing".

    What is the conservative track record? Less than 1/4th a mistake by their standards. Those are not good odds for a liberal, a progressive, a Hillary supporter (presumably if you support Hillary, you share her values)  to bank on. Those are very good odds for a conservative to bet on.

    "President McCain won't be so bad, and the Democratic congress will save the court", is a suckers bet. I wouldn't take it. A better bet is a Democratic congress will keep a Democratic president in line, and more likely to do, what their natural inclination is to do.

    I'll be voting for the Democratic nominee in fall.  I will not sit out, I will not vote for McCain under any circumstances. Its too important.

    [ Parent ]

    the Repubs and Roe v Wade (5.00 / 5) (#283)
    by S on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:21:39 AM EST
    the suckers bet is that the repubs will do away with Roe v Wade...they have had every opportunity, especially under Reagan...most Republican women are pro-choice...even Monica Crowley, a diehard conservative, is on record stating that the Republicans will never eliminate Roe v Wade...however, they will continue to use it as a fundrasing issue...

    ...don't be fooled by the Obama argument to scare democratic women to support Obama because of Roe v Wade...first of all, women have more issues besides just Roe v Wade...and it will not happen, especially with a strong Democratic Congress...it is a fear tactic...

    [ Parent ]

    No they have not (5.00 / 2) (#294)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:35:11 AM EST
    Unless you mean they could have proposed a constitutional amendment. Which they won't for reasons you described. That doesn't mean they won't keep nominating anti-Roe nominees to the court. They will. They have to, their evangelical base will not be denied.

    This is not an Obama argument or a Clinton argument. These are the facts. I agree there is more to the court than Roe. Any McCain nominee is less likely to be for worker rights or human rights. That is what the other half of their base wants.

    I cannot state in more forceful terms that you are wrong. All you have to do is consider the history of their nominations since 1968. The Court has turned more right wing since any time prior to the New Deal. This was not by accident. That is by design.

    Their nominees are less Bork like and more Roberts like. Harder to oppose. Young, likely to be on the court for 40 years. This too is not by accident. This too is by design.

    I hope wiser heads prevail.  I am just a dirt lawyer, there are pros who watch the court, who post here. These points I am  making ought to be made by others besides me. Its time they did.

    [ Parent ]

    the Court decides more than abortion issues (none / 0) (#305)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:02:58 AM EST
    I'm pro-choice, but the Supreme Court decides far more than just abortion issues, in case you hadn't noticed.

    [ Parent ]
    Republicans (none / 0) (#317)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
    forced Bill Clinton to nominate moderate judges to federal courts. There's no reason that Democrats can't do the same with McCain especially with an increased majority.  An increased majority will mean that there may be an additional seat on committees.  No more 1 member committee advantage. A Russ Feingold (Obama supporter)cannot be an unchecked rubber stamp as he has been with Bush nominations.

    For that matter there certainly is no guarantee that Obama would nominate moderate to liberal judges.  The Roberts confirmation story is IMO the Rosetta Stone to Barrack Obama. His Unity schtick it appears is more than just schtick.  How do we know his White House staff will not be larded with Republicans? How do we know he won't leave some Republican appointees in federal agencies? Anyone who maintains that he'll bring the other side to the table as a starting point simply can't be trusted. This is especially ironic when Democratic Party power is increasing. Increased power is an opportunity to ram through desperately needed reforms so what in hell is the Democratic Party doing by nominating someone who would through away that opportunity.
    There are many problems that will not be solved with compromising legislation, legislation that may have no impact. It's certainly happened before, the appearance of action but lacking substance. Obama's US Senate record yields evidence that he's willing to act in that manner.

    Since Roosevelt the Democratic Party has promoted government activism to tackle the nation's problems.  Obama's dependence on the Chicago school of thought would move the Democratic Party away from that role. That's what the 'change' is all about.

    When Obama unnecessarily put Social Security back on the table it should have sent alarm bells ringing. He looked like a Trojan Horse candidate.  I don't believe he's a Trojan Horse but he's put a critical program at risk and it doesn't help that one of his principle policy advisors is a known friend of privatization.  When Bush made his privatization threat, Democrats in Congress pulled together to insure that Bush's foot stayed firmly on the third rail.  That's probably the only reason they made a unified stand. I have a chilling feeling that at least some Democrats in Congress aren't wedded to insuring that Social Security remain a robust public only program. So what happens if a Democratic President decides to "solve" the Social Security "crisis" by proposing some Rube  Goldberg "remedy?"

    I could go on and on about the potential damage. There are deeply serious character flaws in this man.  Through his actions he clearly exhibits traits that I personally loathe.

    It really comes down to the future. I think about my little grandchildren, I don't want a schmuck President with a Democratic Party label. I don't want a Democratic Party changed to the extent that American politics is 'Mexicanized,' leaving only a choice between right and farther right.

    I will not vote for Barrack Obama.  I will write in Hillary Clinton's name if possible or leave the top spot blank. None of the above.  

    [ Parent ]

    Only by losing the presidential election is (5.00 / 8) (#240)
    by hellskitchen on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:08:01 AM EST
    there any hope of reality coming back to the Democratic Party.  Right now they're full of the idea that all of us will vote for Obama to defeat McCain.

    Only when they realize that they've lost the voters that they need to win elections will they wise up.  There are long-term values and short-term values.

    They've taken their support of Obama out of our hides - and I'm going to bend over and say "Kick me again?"

    [ Parent ]

    Nah (5.00 / 1) (#244)
    by themomcat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:15:42 AM EST
    They'll just blame Clinton. ;-)

    [ Parent ]
    Hopefully you will consider the long (5.00 / 2) (#246)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:18:17 AM EST
    term damage a more conservative court will do. That is the long term value. Your preferred nominee is a short term value.

    I would add that partisans of both sides have been insulting and insufferable to their opposing partisans. However, the candidates to their credit, have behaved reasonably responsibly. I cannot ascribe the worst words of a Hillary partisan to Hillary or the worst words of an Obama supporter to Obama.

    Whatever you think of Obama's short comings, Hillary Clinton wold be the first to tell you that sitting out or voting Mccain would be a serious mistake.

    Like Hillary, I intend to vote for the Democratic nominee. I will not sit out, I will not vote for McCain under any circumstances.


    [ Parent ]

    If you mean McCain (none / 0) (#312)
    by hellskitchen on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:02:14 AM EST
    he's not my preferred nominee. I don't know what I'm going to do except not vote for Obama.


    1. I don't buy that we're going to get a better court with Obama.  The behavior he's exhibited in the campaign doesn't instill confidence in his belief in democracy - Im talking about his actions rather than any lip service he's given to civil rights.
    2. Dean, Reid, Pelosi, et al are going to learn nothing if we act like sheep.  Do you have any idea how stupid sheep are?  (There's a wonderful diary over at the Orange Hell about sheep, but you'd have to go to the archives of CanadianBill to find it. and, of course, you'd have to go to Orange Hell.)

    The time is ripe for a third party or the demolishment of the Democratic party as it now exists.  Somehow the playing field has to be leveled in favor ofthe rank and file.

    [ Parent ]

    If it were a real threat to you, you wouldn't be (5.00 / 7) (#207)
    by andrys on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:16:05 AM EST
    insisting Obama be the nominee -- especially now that Clinton is ahead in the popular vote, counting the 4 caucus states where votes are estimated (in his favor) and even counting Uncommitted in Michigan for Obama, AND winning all the averaged-electoral-college-polling matches vs McCain while Obama is losing them to McCain.

      Obama's votes have been been about 500,000 behind Clinton since March and the difference is in the states we know do count, and he has been a presumptive nominee who has been beaten in THREE states now in the last month or so by the most humongous margins won by a 'losing' candidate than ever before.

      In insisting on Obama, you are definitely helping to cause an almost certain McCain win.  It's something to think about.  This would be a result of your call (as a group) despite SO MANY signs that are showing the dangerous weakness of your candidate.

      The only way we can win is to have the two of them run together but with Clinton in the top slot.  Tough to take for many, but it's also true in GE polling (averaged between many, many pollers and not any one poll).

    [ Parent ]

    Obama is ahead (1.00 / 2) (#209)
    by manish on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:21:03 AM EST
    ..under your scenario of giving uncommitted in MI to Obama and estimating caucus results, Obama is ahead by about 44,000 votes.

    [ Parent ]
    An Obama presidency (5.00 / 8) (#256)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:43:25 AM EST
    would do to the Dem party what the Bush presidency has done to the repug party.  Obama is the dem version of Bush.  Unqualified.

    [ Parent ]
    How can you count (5.00 / 3) (#287)
    by DarielK on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:23:11 AM EST
    the uncommitted votes in Michigan?  I know for a fact that there was a large vote for Edwards in the primary - possibly larger than Obama - especially outside of Detroit.  Obama voluntarily took his name off the ballot.  He deserves no consideration for counting individual votes in Michigan.  Hillary respected the voters enough to keep her name on the ballot and every single one of her votes count!!!  

    [ Parent ]
    so you're not concerned about the people (1.00 / 1) (#315)
    by seesdifferent on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:30:48 AM EST
    you're only concerned about Clinton?

    [ Parent ]
    so your thinking is the CANDIDATES deserve...? (1.00 / 2) (#316)
    by seesdifferent on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:41:56 AM EST
    I think the PEOPLE deserve... And they have spoken in their various ways, including caucuses. The PEOPLE were fairly treated by the Michigan solution.

    [ Parent ]
    Abortion is NOT going to become illegal. (5.00 / 8) (#191)
    by Shainzona on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:11:14 AM EST
    A Dem congress can do their job - for once - and as they did with Bork, keep McCain from destroying the Supremes.

    AND, if they should fail to do their job (sadly not out of the realm of possibility), and Roe v Wade gets watered down even more or overturned...the states will not allow abortion to become illegal (at least, not the majority of states).  

    And then the fight can go on.  As it has in and throughout my generation.  Maybe, then, the "new" generation will appreciate all that we did for them

    [ Parent ]

    Supreme Court is more than just abortion (none / 0) (#306)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:10:14 AM EST
    Ya know, one issue voters is how we lose elections, lose parties, lose the people,

    I am very pro-choice, but if you think the only thing the court is there for is to protect abortion, I say to hell with it.  Let it be overturned.

    The court, as any actual progressive democrat should understand has far more important issues to deal with than your mere abortion.

    [ Parent ]

    Just FYI, (5.00 / 10) (#90)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:13:01 AM EST
    THIS
    is the approach which will drive Clinton supporters to McCain in droves.
    Just saying..

    [ Parent ]
    Jesus (5.00 / 7) (#126)
    by phat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:50:11 AM EST
    Talk about using fear to get votes.

    [ Parent ]
    I disagree, because voters can tell when ... (5.00 / 7) (#162)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:53:11 AM EST
    ... they are being manipulated, and they don't like it. They become even more determined to withhold their vote.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, I see that this was intended ... (none / 0) (#167)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:03:05 AM EST
    ... to drive Clinton supporters into the Obama camp. I agree with your point. Although this is probably posted by a McCain supporter, directed by Karl Rove, with the intention of dividing Democrats. But then the entire Obama campaign is just such a conspiracy, so what's new?

    [ Parent ]
    I'm over that threat. (5.00 / 13) (#257)
    by vicsan on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:46:26 AM EST
    I'm too old to worry about abortion. I fought that fight already. If the 20 something Obama supporters don't care about abortion, why should I? If they REALLY cared about that WEDGE issue, they would have supported the woman who has fought for women's rights her entire life.

    Wedge issues are not going to work in this campaign. Speaking for me, I just don't care anymore. Let McCain nominate his strict constructionist judges. It's the price the Obama supporters pay for not supporting the candidate who could beat him. Oh well. Such is life in today's America.

    They will get what they wanted, if Obama is allowed to steal the nomination, and they will reap what they sowed. I don't care anymore.

    I won't be voting for Obama because of his connections to questionable people like Rev. Wright, Father Pfleger, Rezko, Auchi, and the Ayers family and because he painted Bill and Hillary as racists when in SC. Two people who spent their lives fighting for Civil Rights are racists?

    I don't think so.


    [ Parent ]

    So... (1.00 / 0) (#100)
    by Alec82 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:19:56 AM EST
    ...you think Senator McCain will appoint pro-choice justices?  Or do you mean that Senator Clinton enjoys the support of pro-lifers? Or do you mean that people don't like feeling as though they are pressured to vote D because of the abortion issue?  Or because it is a crude approach?

    [ Parent ]
    FYI (4.71 / 7) (#271)
    by joanneleon on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:09:05 AM EST
    Just so you know, I have learned to ignore all comments that start with the word "So".  I've come to recognize that first word as a forewarning of a condescending (and usually counterproductive and provocative) comment from the Unity Camp.

    [ Parent ]
    I believe (5.00 / 5) (#199)
    by The Realist on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:30:48 AM EST
    a vote for Obama will catastrophic becaus it will insure a one term President and Republican control of our Government for another 30 years. That is just my opinion though.

    [ Parent ]
    All you (5.00 / 11) (#262)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:51:26 AM EST
    have to do to get there is look at how corrupt and undemocratic the Democratic Party is behaving in this primary season--much worse than the Republicans in 2000.  We all saw how well the candidate the neoCons manipulated into office worked out--so we can imagine how well Obama will work out.  We have NO IDEA who would really be running things in an Obama administration and what the policies would be.  

    One thing anybody with two brain cells to rub together can conclude is that people who will corrupt their own party rules to give their candidate of choice an edge will not be trustworthy in office.

    [ Parent ]

    You're right too. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:03:55 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    A weak McCain presidency ... (5.00 / 7) (#160)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:50:16 AM EST
    ... opposed by a strong Democratic congress will do less damage to the US, and certainly less damage to the Democratic Party, than would a weak and ineffectual Obama presidency.

    I don't believe Obama has a chance of defeating McCain in the GE, but if I am wrong and he is (a) nominated and (b) wins -- neither of which I would bet on -- then when his 4 years are done we can look forward to another 8, 12, or 16 years of Republican presidents while the Democrats struggle to figure out their reason for being a political party, then how to get organized behind that mission, then how to actually win elections.

    By then, we'll probably be supporting Chelsea for President.

    [ Parent ]

    Amen (5.00 / 3) (#263)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:53:52 AM EST
    and there is also the fact that absolute power corrupts absolutely.  The Dems are already showing this tendency so do we want to buy into it? Not me.

    [ Parent ]
    The presidency is not weak! (none / 0) (#310)
    by lobary on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:43:37 AM EST
    Regardless of who occupies the Oval Office and who controls Congress, the executive branch is by far the largest of the three branches and arguably the most powerful. We often talk about the Supreme Court in the context of presidential politics and presidential power, but the president's power is much greater than that. The SCt is certainly an issue we should be concerned with, but the President's power to affect our laws through bench appointments extends beyond the nine justices on the Supreme Court. Additionally, the President has the power to make law through administrative orders and there is very little Congress can do about it. I am no Obama fan, but his promise to review Bush's executive orders in the first hundred days is reason enough for me to vote for him over McCain.

    [ Parent ]
    sorry I just don't see clearly how an (5.00 / 11) (#211)
    by kimsaw on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:24:25 AM EST
    Obama presidency would be better than a McCain presidency. Maybe it's because I'm an independent. Or maybe it's because Obama sat in an anti white church for 20 years, used them and then trash them when convenient. Just because he has a D behind his name doesn't necessarily mean he's a Democrat. His clarity is lacking with a vocabulary embedded in double speak. His moral fiber allows him to throw anyone under the bus, even perhaps the people who loved him best and admired him most as their beacon of hope. Integrity is not a word I associate with Obama. He's as flawed as the Democrat party is foolish. Clinton's decision to support a morally bankrupt party is her problem. I know she will surrender. It doesn't make me proud as a woman and it doesn't make me proud as an American. My support for her is because she is the best candidate. The most prepared to drive this nation in a sane direction.

    Obama is a propagandist of the worst sort and with him "just words" are the polar opposite of his intended meaning, "just words means exactly that to this voter, they are simply words that speak to nothing with credibility. I can not vote for him in good conscience. He is a divisive hate filled example of what every politician shouldn't be. He's not a unifier or a hope filled candidate but a young immature undefined mess, he is the brethren of our current president. A taker of power not an empowerer. Obama leads by divide and conquer. He has created a new party in his own image. Messianic no, his foundation of leadership is based on division not on respect for our differences. He has built a political web of deceit and the Democrats get what they deserve. Obama does not get my vote- with all do respect to Clinton- this isn't about her my decision is all about him. Clinton has my trust, she has earned it. I'm not afraid of McCain. I fear him far less then I distrust Obama.  The Democrats do not know who they are.

    [ Parent ]

    A McCain Presidency (5.00 / 3) (#291)
    by BDB on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:28:56 AM EST
    Is not something I would look forward to or think is a good thing.  It probably would be worse than an Obama presidency.  

    But that will always be true.  If Obama loses, then in 2012 we'll be told to back another Democratic ticket we hate, chosen by the same idiots who chose this one because otherwise McCain will be re-elected and we won't be able to risk that.  That's how Donna Brazile has kept her job all these years because good Democrats keep going along with the program in fear that to do otherwise will empower Republicans.

    Well, I've gotten over that fear.  Mostly because the weakness of the Democratic Party and its continued slide away from economic populism and towards corporatism have put the Democratic Party almost as far from my values as the GOP.  The Democrats are not as bad as the GOP, but the differences get smaller and smaller every year and the only reason the Dems aren't as bad as the GOP is that their slide into corruption has been slower than the GOP's.  But it's still there.  

    And between still trying to cave on telecom immunity, the continued confirmation of right-wing judges (Southwick), and the Rovian primay season in which the ascendant half of the party has not only been willing but eager to throw feminism and working class voters under the bus, I have no real hope that empowering the "new coalition" of Democrats will in any way do much for the causes I care about.  Given that the GOP is not EVER going to advance the causes I care about, my only option is to try to make the Democratic Party care again and that will only happen by withholding the things they want from me - my vote and my money.  

    As I've said a million times now, ask nothing for your vote and nothing is what you'll get every time.  I don't ask much for my votes from Democratic candidates, but I do ask for several things, starting with basic respect.  Repeatedly the party and Obama have made it clear that if that's my price, it's too high.   I won't give my vote away because if I do that, I will always be taken for granted.  Indeed, I think one of the things that's hurt Clinton is that the party insiders believe she and her supporters will fall in line because we always have.  That's how they think - Obama has more influence precisely because he has threatened to split the party and because of his "independent" appeal.  Well, next week, I'll be an independent so now maybe I'll have some influence with the Democratic party.  

    As for President McCain, while I won't like it at all, it will give the Democratic majority in Congress an opportunity to prove that it's deserving of my support.  Of course, I fully expect they will fail at that as they continue their slide into corrupt corporatism, but that's not a reason to support the party.  It's a reason to try to change it.  And you don't do that by accepting whatever they shove down your throat.  

    [ Parent ]

    Turkana (5.00 / 12) (#217)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:43:48 AM EST
    Your post was excellent (as usual). But I think you might have missed one thing - it's not just Clinton supporters, it's anti-Obama people now. There are a whole lot of angry liberals who loathe Obama and his movement but are not necessarily Clinton supporters or who are now Clinton supporters only be default. I think Obama supporters, including many of your regular commenters, don't understand that the anti-ObamaNation sentiment is not necessarily the result of Clinton support. They simplemindedly blame Obama's weakening support on Clinton and her supporters but I don't think the correlation is correct.

    [ Parent ]
    Dr. Molly (none / 0) (#267)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:59:05 AM EST
    Your argument could just as easily be turned the other way.  Since the DNC, the media and the Obama campaign decided to demonize the Clintons, Obama started out with an anybody-but-
    clinton crowd--remember:  no more dynasties?  Obamabots biggest talking point (as per Richardson--why are you endorsing Obama--Richardson: it shouldn't be Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton).  So what's your point?  Does Obama want to give up all the people who voted for him just because they didn't want Clinton?

    [ Parent ]
    tek (5.00 / 1) (#290)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:27:30 AM EST
    I think you may have misinterpreted me. Perhaps I was unclear. I was only saying that it's not only disgruntled Clinton supporters that are now anti-Obama - it's more than that.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry. (none / 0) (#296)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:37:38 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "passionate followers" (5.00 / 11) (#222)
    by alsace on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:17:32 AM EST
    I'm not so much a "passionate follower" of Hillary Clinton as I am one who recognizes she is the last competent candidate standing.  Obama has had well over a year to demonstrate his grasp of the issues and his position on them.  Instead, he and HIS "passionate followers" have opted to stay with his pseudo-issues of hope, change and unity, while  using misogyny and bullying as their chief campaign tactics.  

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed (3.00 / 2) (#17)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:31:19 AM EST
    I think Gloria Borger said that Hillary spoke to Obama today. I hope they can work something out.

    [ Parent ]
    He called her on the win in PR. (none / 0) (#46)
    by itsadryheat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:45:44 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    His text messaging wasn't working? (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by soccermom on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:39:47 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Is there a parallel from a recent (5.00 / 16) (#56)
    by MarkL on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:50:11 AM EST
    election for the percentage of Democrats who say they will not vote for the nominee?
    One reason I think Obama is doomed to a catastrophic loss is that he and his supporters refuse to acknowledge the problem he has with Democrats already. I don't quite hate Obama, but I certainly like him less than any Democrat in my lifetime. I think that is typical.
    The "unity schmooze" and the emotional blackmail attempts are just going to make people less likely to vote for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    I have to agree. (5.00 / 17) (#204)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:05:25 AM EST
    Frankly, I'm tired of even trying. Speaking for myself only, I see yesterday's actions by the DNC Rules & Bylaws Committee as a covenant-breaker. We stand for nothing as a political party, if not for principle.

    I cannot in good conscience support a campaign or vote for a candidate that engages consistently and repeatedly in such egregious behavior. It embarrasses me to no end that the first African-American candidate to have a bona fide shot at the Democratic presidential nomination has been responsible for inflicting upon us the most divisive and mean-spirited Democratic campaign since that of George Wallace in 1972, when I was 11 years old. It is unworthy of a Democratic candidate, and unacceptable.

    IMHO, the worst day's work Barack Obama ever did was the day he hired David Axelrod to run his campaign. Axelrod is at once a polarizing and toxic bully, far too prone to rely upon character assassination as a means of advancing the careers of his political clientele. He apparently doesn't care to count one digit past 50% +1, and now he has wilfully made a mockery of our party's professed adherence to the bedrock democratic principle of "one man, one vote."

    In so compromising party principles and risking the forfeit of our party's moral high ground in this campaign, he's revealed himself as nothing more than Karl Rove with a bad combover.

    [ Parent ]

    Paul Lukasiak at Correntewire is offering (5.00 / 11) (#142)
    by itsadryheat on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:15:56 AM EST
    to sue the RBC for violating it's rules and to set up a website and organize a movement to demand refunds of donations to the DNC on the basis of misrepresentation.  He says he has the webspace and time to put into it if people think it is a good idea.  I tried to register so I could say ,"YES" but registration is delayed.

     I had already seen people on the blog at Hillary's site suggesting these ideas last night, along with starting a new party (The America Party, The Real Democratic Pary or the New Democratic Party or The Democratic Values Party ) People wanted to ask Hillary to join and run. Or ask her to run as independent, ask her to stay active till the convention and fight it out there. Others wanted to find out the state requirements for write-in campaigns or organize petitions to the DNC to show the scope and extent of the anger and damage it is doing the party's prospects.

     Some were suggesting organizing trains to Denver for Hillary supporters to join as they crossed country.  Many were sending zeroxes to Dean of their new voter registrations as Independents.  Send back fund requests with a piece of one's mind and no postage.  Even burning bras and sending the residue to DNC.

     General tenor of the near 400 posters was that simply not voting for Obama was not nearly enough. So many were trying to donate to McCain that his site was non responsive last night.

     Many, many were saying they sent in donations to Hillary after the meeting to continue the fight, so much so that the site put up the donation screen.  One can send the campaign tips and ideas at Tips@HillaryClinton.com.

    [ Parent ]

    Geez, that's fantastic (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:23:16 AM EST
    Thank you so much for posting this.


    [ Parent ]
    Florida (5.00 / 3) (#269)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:05:55 AM EST
    already has a suit filed against the DNC. It's a different cause of action that some people who are lawyers are saying has a good chance of succeeding.  Details at TM.

    I like the idea of a third party.  I remembered this morning, it wasn't the Democrats who stood up to the Robber Barons in the Gilded Age, it was a third party:  the Progressive Party. After the Progressives got several Congressional seats the Democrats embraced them and adopted their platform.  Seems like a better path than what the DNC is offering us this time around.

    [ Parent ]

    I think these ideas are great (5.00 / 1) (#281)
    by Jane in CA on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:20:46 AM EST
    for the most part, but I would be very very wary about sending ashes of any kind through the US Postal Service to DNC.  You could likely find yourself under investigation with Homeland Security ... just saying.

    [ Parent ]
    So you've heard of the (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:28:35 AM EST
    new PUMA party?  Stands for Party Unity My (Derriere).

    See Riverdaughter

    [ Parent ]

    heh (5.00 / 5) (#19)
    by Turkana on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:31:58 AM EST
    i try with her, because i respect her, but she's not coming back, and meteor blades's post today was not helpful. i'm with meteor blades probably 99% of the time, but he's been breathing too much toxic air.

    [ Parent ]
    There are legions of us (5.00 / 16) (#23)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:33:31 AM EST
    who aren't coming back....

    [ Parent ]
    and what's worse (5.00 / 13) (#28)
    by DandyTIger on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:36:56 AM EST
    we're not the ones they should be worrying about. It's the unwashed masses they disrespect, ignore, and don't want in the party anymore. Active people talking on this and other blogs aren't the problem. But if we can't be won over, they're in really big trouble.

    [ Parent ]
    You are so right. (none / 0) (#270)
    by tek on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:07:47 AM EST
    Lots of Democrats don't have time to be blogging, but they are following events and they are not happy--they will not be turning out for Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Hope you included me in that legion (5.00 / 5) (#213)
    by felizarte on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:26:37 AM EST
    I have gone beyond upset and livid after Saturday.  My plans are set for November and they do not include Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    It isn't just about supporting Clinton... (5.00 / 22) (#40)
    by jackyt on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:42:46 AM EST
    It's also about rejecting Obama. For me, he doesn't measure up on any scale I use to judge someone qualified for the office of President of the United States. So no matter what anyone else, Hillary included, asks me to do, I cannot in good conscience vote for Barack Obama.

    [ Parent ]
    Abomination (5.00 / 8) (#73)
    by Athena on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:59:27 AM EST
    Description of RBC debacle on Liberal Rapture site: Obamanation.

    [ Parent ]
    I am in the same boat here. (5.00 / 6) (#190)
    by Amiss on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 04:11:01 AM EST
    I am a lifelong Democrat since I was 21 and am almost 60, I am having a really hard time trying to reconcile any reason that might lead me to vote for Obama, and each day it becomes more and more troublesome for me to even think of it. Most likely I will do a write-in. Here in Fla there is a place on the ballots for write-ins, but if the candidate needs to register with the state for it to count as anything but a protest vote.

    [ Parent ]
    that's true in MI as well (5.00 / 4) (#266)
    by TimNCGuy on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 07:57:09 AM EST
    So according to the DNC you don't have to worry.  Write-in anythign you want and then the ROOLZ committee will figure out who they want to assign your vote to without even looing at the write in to see who you wrote in.

    [ Parent ]
    Protest vote might be the only way to save us (5.00 / 2) (#279)
    by BarnBabe on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 08:18:56 AM EST
    The new Democratic Party has gone into another direction. If we want to save the Democratic Party, we might just have to be like Alice Paul. Our only course left is with our votes at this time. At least with Kerry or Mondale or even Dukakis, I had faith in their experience and wisdom to be able to vote for them even if they were not my first choice. But in my heart, as I clearly felt when GW was running, this is not the man I want as President of the World. I did not think GW was qualified and could not understand why other people adored him and did not see the flaws. I feel the same way here. AND I can not vote for the Idol because running the country is a hard job. Heh. And this does NOT HAVE anything to do with supporting Hillary. I support Hillary because I believe (And I was for any of the top 3)that she would make the best President of them all. I can not say the same for BHO. Why would I cast my vote for someone who does not represent me. We just have D's on our voting registration. A democracy says I can vote for whom I want. Or not vote at all. Yep, a protest vote for the DNC to fix the problems before the next time out. Otherwise, it will continue on just as before because they think we are lemmings.

    [ Parent ]
    If not Obama, vote Libertarian... (none / 0) (#87)
    by jerry on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:09:59 AM EST
    Because of the Supreme Court, because of the lesson of 9/11 and Iraq, I strongly encourage people to vote for Obama when it comes down to it.

    But.

    But if you can't vote for Obama, then trying to get a real third party started would be a good thing.

    The country is stuck in a lot of stupid politics because of our two party system, a system that apparently our wise founders never wanted.

    Getting a third party going is one way to break the gridlock.  The libertarians have a lot of wrongs, but at least they are very pro-civil liberties, and getting a third party started makes it that much easier to get a fourth party started.

    [ Parent ]

    Personally (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:02:18 AM EST
    I would vote for Obama before the Libertarians.  I would vote for McCain before the Libertarians.  I would vote for GEORGE W. &%%$& BUSH before the Libertarians.

    [ Parent ]
    That my dear friend. (5.00 / 5) (#208)
    by TheViking on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 05:18:18 AM EST
    Is an understatement and a half!

    I realize that this blog is now trying to put a "let's all try to work it out" spin on everything.

    For example, that other post that J just posted about Markos' "popular vote" count and the fact that we have to be NICE about him and his bs because you apparently love him, is just one.

    FWIW he's no friend of mine, and is to BLAME for alot of this travesty. If this is what you love... leave me out of it.

    Good luck with your unity drive.

    After Saturday's blatant hijacking bull$hit, you're asking for the impossible.

    Speaking for myself AND MILLIONS* OF OTHERS JUST LIKE ME!


    [ Parent ]

    They should (5.00 / 1) (#307)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 09:19:30 AM EST

    They should have been given at least 3/5 vote.

    [ Parent ]
    What we've essentially got (5.00 / 8) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:24:30 AM EST