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Olbermann Asked To Tone Down Hillary Hate, Refused

From a damning New Yorker article

At MSNBC, Phil Griffin was worried, and with good reason. The average “Countdown” viewer is fifty-nine years old, and forty-five per cent of the viewers are women, presumably Democratic—a fair description of a Hillary Clinton supporter. Griffin believed that Olbermann was beginning to alienate his core audience, and asked him to ease up a bit on Clinton, and possibly even make some conciliatory gesture to the Clinton camp. Olbermann was offended by the suggestion. “I can’t do that!” he says, recalling that conversation. “Me doing a commentary against my own opinion is pandering. Black and white. And I’m not going to do it. Would I pull back a little bit, or think long and hard about whether or not I want to knowingly alienate part of the audience? Yeah. And I did. I mean, I held fire on Senator Clinton for quite a while after she began to really scare me, with some of these tactics.”

(Emphasis supplied.) More . . .

BTW, this is the same Phil Griffin who was quoted as saying:

. . . [A]lthough a few mistakes had been made, that they had been corrected quickly and that the network’s overall coverage was fair.

“I get it, that in this 24-hour media world, you’ve got to be on your game and there’s very little room for mistakes,” Mr. Griffin said. “But the Clinton campaign saw an opportunity to use it for their advantage. They were trying to rally a certain demographic, and women were behind it.”

There appears to be a credibility problem for Phil Griffin on this issue. Obviously he DID think his network, or at the least, his biggest star, was biased and offensive towards Hillary Clinton. But he blissfully denied the obvious to the NYTimes. In any event, Tom Brokaw clearly was not comfortable with Olbermann's antics:

Toward the end of the primary season, with Montana and South Dakota going for Obama and Clinton, respectively, on June 3rd, Olbermann earned another on-air scolding from Brokaw after asserting that Clinton was “trying to shoehorn her way” into the coverage of the presumed nominees of the two parties. “I think that’s unfair, Keith,” Brokaw said. “When you look at the states that she won and the popular vote that she piled up, and the number of delegates that she has on her side, she’s got real bargaining power in all of this.

(Emphasis supplied.) In any event, apparently all is not well at MSNBC and there is real concern about what Olbermann has wrought:

But, just as Obama must work to win Clinton supporters for the fall campaign, Phil Griffin has to repair a fractured audience base, a portion of which saw sexism in his network’s Clinton coverage and vowed to boycott MSNBC. Griffin knows that some of that anger is aimed at his star anchor. “It was, like, you meet a guy and you fall in love with him, and he’s funny and he’s clever and he’s witty, and he’s all these great things,” Griffin said of the relationship between Olbermann and the Clinton supporters among his viewers. “And then you commit yourself to him, and he turns out to be a jerk and difficult and brutal. And that is how the Hillary viewers see him. It’s true. But I do think they’re going to come back. There’s nowhere else to go.”

(Emphasis supplied.) I am now a full throated Obama supporter but I will never come back to MSNBC and Keith Olbermann as a reliable source of news. Olberman is a propagandist, as Somerby has pointed out, not a journalist. Chris Matthews is well, you know what he is. And those 2 bully their entire operation. It is a distasteful and unappealing network to me now. I won't be watching them.

Speaking for me only.

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  • Display: Sort:
    I wonder if Olbermann will accuse (5.00 / 20) (#1)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:14:13 AM EST
    Griffin of crashing parties too?

    Seriously, what a disaster at that network. And they deserve every bit of audience loss they get.

    If Griffin is willing to say this in public:


    it was, like, you meet a guy and you fall in love with him, and he's funny and he's clever and he's witty, and he's all these great things,

    [. . .]

     And then you commit yourself to him, and he turns out to be a jerk and difficult and brutal. And that is how the Hillary viewers see him. It's true. But I do think they're going to come back. There's nowhere else to go.

    Then you know there's a SERIOUS internal problem at that network. Someone's getting fired.

    I will never watch him again. (4.93 / 15) (#33)
    by jpete on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:47:22 AM EST
    It looked to me as though he just decided to pander to Obama, dKos, etc.  Of course, I could be over-estimating his intelligence.  But the possibility that he is just another supid, sexist msm pundit is no comfort.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't stand him anymore either.... (5.00 / 23) (#74)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:16:34 AM EST
    ....in fact it made it difficult for me to watch the poignant coverage of Tim Russert's passing when I even felt empathy for Andrea Mitchell, whom I also have no respect for as a journalist. But Olberman kept trying to ratchet Russert's death from a tragedy to those that knew and loved him into a national tragedy. He pounced on something that Barbara Walters said and kept baiting Russert's friends into making statements that conformed to his narrative, when they clearly just wanted to talk about what he meant to them. Olberman is a demagogue. I'm glad that his bosses are started to see that he poses a problem.

    As BTD says, Tweety is Tweety, but Olberman was actually someone I thought was reputable. It shakes my sense of complacency when I see the dark opportunistic side of people that I thought were the good guys.

    [ Parent ]

    There was an article somewhere not (5.00 / 10) (#84)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:22:54 AM EST
    long ago talking about the animosity between the "moderators" at MSNBC. The rapid climb up the ranks of David Gregory to the competition between Olbermann and Matthews. They all felt threatened by the other. With Russert's bureau chief position now open, you can imagine the back biting that will be going on. Olbermann was grand standing his coverage as an interview, most likely.

    [ Parent ]
    in my humble opinion none of those you (5.00 / 6) (#160)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:28:35 PM EST
    named shouldn't even dust the chair much less sit in it.

    [ Parent ]
    Rec'd (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:46:46 PM EST
    despite mangled syntax.

    [ Parent ]
    smile! nearly lost coffee on laptop! (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:53:24 PM EST
    i was laughing!

    [ Parent ]
    i stopped watching Olbermann after (5.00 / 15) (#96)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:30:30 AM EST
    his reaction the the Rev Wright incident.  As you recall this was just shortly after his "special comments" on Clinton.  At the time Olbermann claimed he was doing the special comment because Clinton didn't immediately reject Ferraro, butonly her comments.  And, it took a couple of days for Ferraro to resign from her Clinton campaign post.

    Then came Rev Wright and Obama took even LONGER to repsond to it.  And Obama rejected the Wright comments, but not the man.  (sound familiar?)  And Obama didn't remove Wright from his campaign.  

    So, I waited to see what Olbermann's reaction would be since the circumstances were almost identical to the Ferraro incident.  So, what did Olbermann do?  He gave Obama a platform to discuss the situation in overly friendy terms.  Asked no hard hitting questions.  And, did no follow-up on any vague answers Obama gave.  And, in the end it took Obama LONGER to remove Wright from his campaign post that it took for Ferraro to leave the Clinton campaign.

    He let Obama get away with the statements saying he had NEVER heard these types of statements from Wright.  He just learned about them "recently" when it had actually been over a year. and on, and on..  He never actually pinned him down for any specific answers.

    I haven't watched him since.

    [ Parent ]

    I wrote to Media Matters on that (5.00 / 11) (#107)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:39:06 AM EST
    gentle interview with Obama, and how the questions were designed to allow him to lie about the Rev and when he learned of the media storm. I had already written to MM on the ridiculous commentary against Hillary, but brought it up again to emphasize the bias on MSNBC. MM, the "watchdog" did nothing to address any of this. But, now they are all over anything unjust toward Clinton.


    [ Parent ]
    MM is not a watchdog (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by daryl herbert on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:59:08 AM EST
    It is an attack dog.

    If it ever claimed to be otherwise, it is lying.  BTW, I don't think "attack dog" is a bad thing.  Pointing out BS is important and useful, even if you only point out the BS that bothers you the most.

    [ Parent ]

    He'll be sent to start a Che Revolucion in Bolivia (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:32:59 AM EST
    mark my words.  

    He's meglomaniacal loose cannon.

    [ Parent ]

    Seriously... (5.00 / 6) (#105)
    by magisterludi on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:37:55 AM EST
    the Olberman accolades (and Chuck Todd, to a lesser degree) got to be a bit much. I became uncomfortable watching. Decided hero- worship that KO seems to covet (Murrow, Russert, Obama and who knows who in the sports world where KO germinated). I bet he's got some real father figure issues.

    [ Parent ]
    Chuck Todd (5.00 / 7) (#153)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:19:30 PM EST
     bought right into the Obama campaign talking point that a candidate must have the MOST pledged delgates to get the noimnation.  Every time they talked about delegates they kept insisting that "she can't catch up in pledged delegates" as if it was the only measure super delegates were allowed to use.  I never once heard Todd use any disclaimer that a candidate doesn't HAVE TO win the most pledged delegates in order to get support from super delegates.

    [ Parent ]
    I stopped watching KO about 2 1/2 (5.00 / 12) (#141)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:09:02 PM EST
    months ago because of the Hillary hate.  Prior to that I watched most of his show every night. But then the worm turned and it became ugly.  To my mind, he should be penalized...he isn't all that.
    But I forget, this is the era of being rewarded for bad behavior, starting from presidential nominee campaigns on down.

    In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny...KO is a marooooon.

    [ Parent ]

    ko fell in love with his image. sorry to say (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:11:32 PM EST
    the image doesn't conform to the real person. it appears msnbc is aware of it. the question is do they have the necessary fortitude to do something about it.

    [ Parent ]
    Like Many "Celebrities" (5.00 / 4) (#191)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    exposed to the spotlight for a lengthy time, Keith Olbermann has become a caricature of himself.

    He is a man of extremes.  That will ultimately be his downfall.

    [ Parent ]

    Nowhere else to go, Phil? (5.00 / 37) (#2)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:15:09 AM EST
    I'm gone, Phil.  And I used to have on MSNBC all the time, never missed Countdown, even TIVO'd it if I had to be gone then.

    But I'm gone now and for good -- because, y'know what?  There are lots of other information sources out there that don't abuse me.  And y'know what else?  Clinton isn't the only one with bargaining power still.  I have bargaining power, too.

    Or as the inimitable Fanny Flagg wrote so well in Fried Green Tomatoes: I'm older, and I have insurance.  Byeeeee, Phil.

    Signed,

    Towanda!

    p.s.  And if KO and Tweets and the boyz don't know who Towanda! is, that oughta tell you something right there, Phil.

    I love that movie (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:23:49 AM EST
    on so many levels! I may just have to shuffle through m CDs and play it again.

    Towanda!

    [ Parent ]

    I meant DVDs not CDs (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:34:40 AM EST
    Need more coffee.

    [ Parent ]
    Uh-oh (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:43:39 AM EST
    I don't know who Towanda is.  What does that say about me?

    Guess I need to go rent myself Fried Green Tomatoes.

    [ Parent ]

    I hope you do (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by suki on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:50:25 AM EST
    You won't regret it!

    [ Parent ]
    Oh please do (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:54:36 AM EST
    It's a wonderful movie, funny and poignant and filled with important lessons as well as great actresses. Two stories in one. Kathy Bates and Jessica Tandy are delicious. And the relationship between Idgie and Ruth is heartwarming and heartbreaking at the same time. One of my favorites!

    [ Parent ]
    yes you do! but i recommend it simply (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:18:18 PM EST
    because it is a lovely movie with dang good acting. the towanda part by the way is priceless.

    [ Parent ]
    the book is great, too (none / 0) (#165)
    by lucy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:34:37 PM EST
    Rent the movie, it's great, but also read the book which is even better.  Like most books made into movies they had to leave stuff out.  

    [ Parent ]
    Didn't watch the coverage there (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:48:15 AM EST
    of Tim Russert's death. It used to be my preferred channel to watch as well and so was KO. I guess eventually, your true colors blume.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah, KO, I'm older and I have (5.00 / 23) (#57)
    by litigatormom on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:07:30 AM EST
    more TVs and more spending power, and I'm not watching your advertisers anymore.  And I have two daughters who used to watch Countdown regularly and like me, are now on strike.

    So you can tell us we have nowhere else to go, just like Senator Obama now thinks we have nowhere else to go.  

    I have plenty of places to go.  But you've lost me permanently. If you preferred Obama to Clinton, that was your right. But you didn't have the right to talk about Clinton in the way you did, particularly not when you ignored so many questionable statements coming out of the Obama camp.

    Don't confuse maintaining your prejudices and biases with intellectual integerity, Keith. Your audience knows better.

    [ Parent ]

    there's boycotts and boycotts (5.00 / 11) (#95)
    by dotcommodity on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:29:26 AM EST
    Even after the outrageous lies and smears kos himself and all the Oborg began at dailykos I still comment there and will diary(even more than when I thought we finally had a chance at a Dem in the WH), my eco diaries, because there is the chance to appeal to naked greed to reduce carbon levels, now there is no chance at legislative change.

    There is now a laughable lack of objective analysis at dailykos without the fine minds (like yours litigatormom!) of the wiser and more nitpicky media-critical Hillary supporting many who left. But it is still worth the effort of influencing the dregs. The alternative is climate armagedden.

    But the one way media is different. I do not support anyone who thinks it is acceptable to threaten physical violence against a female candidate who would not quit, any more than I would listen to someone threatening a black candidate who wouldn't quit with a noose!

    [ Parent ]

    He's right in one respect, (5.00 / 8) (#98)
    by Iphie on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:31:24 AM EST
    I don't watch network news now at all because I feel that I don't have a reliable, unbiased choice. CNN is out for the most part and I will not watch MSNBC again (if they sponsor a debate I'll watch that, but only that, no commentary before or after). The irony of course, is that MSNBC has turned into a parody of Fox with Olbermann playing a wordier, less entertaining O'Reilly.

    He's right, I don't have much of a choice, but I do have other options. On election night, I imagine I will have one tuner on PBS and the other on C-SPAN -- not nearly the same level of flash, but a whole lot more substance.

    [ Parent ]

    Jumping the shark, landing in the tank for Obama (5.00 / 11) (#171)
    by Ellie on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:39:46 PM EST
    A lot of this seems to be greed over the arrival in force of the allegedly huge population drawn to Obama.

    Playing to these coveted Dumpling Dems that apparently Donna Brazile has assigned herself to shepherd towards partisan tasks has clearly inflated and emboldened the loudest Obama supporters to do anything they can to benefit personally. This holds for the blogs, party and media blitherati.

    All I see is suckers taken in by the kind of spray-painted fools' gold that con artists used to plant to sell a fake motherlode to greedy prospectors during various Gold Rushes.

    They're still panning for the real stuff and to keep themselves going they're down to burning furniture for firewood to sustain themselves until they hit the big score.

    They burned off their credibility and integrity, such as it was, and there's no going back when people's alternate options, and power, are improving.

    I get news on demand from a variety of sources that don't insult my intelligence or tax my credulity. I can satisfy my blog thirst any number of places. I don't have to support billion dollar food fights among corrupt politicians or endorse the corporations that suck the marrow from government and take food out my family's mouths.

    These creeps think they've cleverly positioned themselves to turn spigots and levers and I will do their bidding because there's no place for me to "go"?

    Heh, I'm the one who can turn THEM off and be gone, baby, gone. Their time is done, not mine. Eventually, they'll see they lost a good thing and I don't even have to tell them I'm not there. They'll know it.

    [ Parent ]

    that is just fantastic! (5.00 / 2) (#197)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:21:14 PM EST
    You nailed it. And very nicely said.

    These TV so called journalists are bigots and shills for their special interest groups, friends, and their own corporation. Not that this is anything new, but it's been more obvious lately I think. A real eye opener. And indeed we all have many options.

    I admit I occasionally flip by them just like I occasionally flip by foxnews just to see what the bigots are up to lately. Usually more for the humor factor. I can stay long on either for fear of raising the BP too high. And there are lots of other outlets for information too.

    [ Parent ]

    blitherati (5.00 / 3) (#203)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:32:27 PM EST
    is a most excellent word.

    [ Parent ]
    i'd rather give up my televison (5.00 / 6) (#145)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:12:26 PM EST
    than ever watch countdown again, and i was a regular viewer before the hillary bashing.

    [ Parent ]
    Utterly OT (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:09:00 PM EST
    Good to see you, Cream City.  Assume you are drying out there in Wisconsin.  Our section of the Mississippi crests today.

    Don't supposed Olbermann covered THAT story recently?

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks BTD for connecting the dots (5.00 / 23) (#3)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:16:34 AM EST
    Who else would have mentioned the obvious contradiction between what Griffin said to the New Yorker and what he said to the NY Times? This is just another example of why I love this place.

    Indeed (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:20:05 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    What Contradiction? (none / 0) (#16)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:33:18 AM EST
    I don't see it and Armando doesn't explain it. Griffin saw a problem in the Atlantic article and sought to try to correct it. Same is true in his short quote in the NYT - he said mistakes had been mad and they were corrected. That seems to be consistent to me. What is the contradiction there?

    As for his comment about demographics and women - it is true - Clinton did try to rally women and was successful at it. Nothing wrong with that and Griffin didn't say anything was wrong with it.

    Much to do about nothing. There is not a contradiction, unless someone would like to explain what it is which so far no one has.

    [ Parent ]

    This is the Talex I remember (5.00 / 17) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:42:28 AM EST
    In the NYTimes article, Griffin said:

    [A]lthough a few mistakes had been made, that they had been corrected quickly and that the network's overall coverage was fair.

    In the New Yorker article, it is reported:

    Griffin believed that Olbermann was beginning to alienate his core audience, and asked him to ease up a bit on Clinton, and possibly even make some conciliatory gesture to the Clinton camp. Olbermann was offended by the suggestion. "I can't do that!" he says, recalling that conversation.

    Griffin said there was biased coverage from Olbermann and he refused to correct it. Seems pretty clear to me.

    [ Parent ]

    Well sorry (none / 0) (#59)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:08:43 AM EST
    in the NYT Griffin himself does not even mention Olbermann. He could be talking about any number of issues and people in his capacity of senior vice president of NBC News and the executive in charge of MSNBC.

    Secondly a portion of the article which you quote, and is key to the connection you are trying to make, is not even a direct quotation by Griffin, it is the reporters words and we all know that doesn't always hold up. And even the reporter does not mention Olbermann in that article quote. In fact Olbermann is not even mentioned in the article up to that point.

    Now if we were in court your connection of the two articles has all kinds of holes in it.

    It was not my intention to get into a spat. I was simply pointing out that trying to connect two 'different' articles that may be speaking about separate incidents in different time frames and one does not even mention Olbermann in the quotes being compared does not show any clear contradiction.

    At the end of the day what Griffin said is not really the rub. The rub is Olbermann himself and the fact that Griffin was doing his job and trying to keep from losing an audience is admirable. The fact that Olbermann refused to understand that is the real story here IMHO.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm sorry? (5.00 / 8) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:11:49 AM EST
    You argue that the biggest personality at MSNBC who anchored its political coverage was not referenced?

    That is ridiculous.

    [ Parent ]

    Where (none / 0) (#69)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:15:33 AM EST
    was Olbermann named in the NYT article up to the point of the quote? He wasn't. He name does not appear in that portion of the article up to that point nor does Griffin mention his name. Read it and see.

    That's all I have to say on my comments. The facts speak for themselves is all I am saying.

    [ Parent ]

    You miss my point (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:21:38 AM EST
    When discussing MSNBC this NECESSARILY encompassess its biggest personality and the anchor of its political news coverage,

    [ Parent ]
    Not NECESSARILY (none / 0) (#99)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:31:48 AM EST
    counselor.

    Again, in Griffin's capacity, where he is in charge of not only MANY on-air personalities along with producers, writers, directors - who can all have a role in what is said on air...

    The mistakes that Griffin references in the actual quote of his words can extend to any of the broadcast team.

    Had Griffin actually mentioned Olbermann in his quote then there would be no 'interpretation' of what Griffin meant here.

    Out.

    [ Parent ]

    Have you ever heard the phrase (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:41:31 AM EST
    "Dancing on the head of a pin?"


    [ Parent ]
    Cute (none / 0) (#116)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:45:11 AM EST
    Now can you show me where Griffin named Olbermann in his quote?

    No?

    Case closed.

    [ Parent ]

    The case is not closed (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by standingup on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:10:02 PM EST
    Your argument is flawed.  Griffin named no one.

    The NYT contacted Griffin because the network, not just one individual, had been noted to have a problem with sexist coverage:

    MSNBC, a particular target of criticism

    The network, including Matthews, Shuster and Olbermann, has been criticized for sexist coverage.

    [ Parent ]
    Which is (none / 0) (#155)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:20:45 PM EST
    exactly the point I was making. thank you.

    [ Parent ]
    You enjoy seeing your case crushed? Odd. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by rilkefan on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:33:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    You think that he wasn't referencing (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:14:12 AM EST
    a disciplinary problem and ratings dip with Olberman?

    fershur. lol.

    [ Parent ]

    LOL 2U2 (none / 0) (#77)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:18:11 AM EST
    Your injecting something that wasn't said in the quote. He could have been talking about Tweety or any number of other on air personalities that do reporting or commentary. The fact is that he didn't name Olbermann. What is it that you don't get about that?

    [ Parent ]
    is this a court? (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    Olberman is a huge problem.  Editors and producers are obsessed by ratings.

    I know that much about TV people.

    [ Parent ]

    Yeah (none / 0) (#124)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:52:35 AM EST
    Olberman is a huge problem.

    And if you read one of my other posts you will see that I said that is the story - not Griffin.

    [ Parent ]

    Gosh I hate to help BTD (4.60 / 10) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:18:09 AM EST
    but when you have to use "may be" in an argument you have just lost.

    MSNBC is dying and everyone but Mathews and KO knows it.

    [ Parent ]

    No I didn't lose (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:20:47 AM EST
    I said 'may be' because in the article it isn't clear who or what he was talking about because he didn't name Olbermann & Olbermann was not even mentioned in the article up to that point. Was he?

    [ Parent ]
    You lost (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:24:42 AM EST
    You just don't know it.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh! (1.00 / 1) (#102)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:33:06 AM EST
    Because you said so.

    Want to know why I didn't lose? I'll tell you.

    Because.

    LOL.

    [ Parent ]

    Here in the Pac NW (5.00 / 3) (#104)
    by zyx on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    MSNBC was dropped from the standard cable package early in the year. It would cost more to get it and just a couple of other ho-hum channels that they dropped. I was put out when that happened, but it would cost, oh, twelve bucks a month more to get the next upgrade.

    There are much better things I could do with that money, y'know? And the fact is and always has been, MSNBC has the smallest share of the cable news market. May they wither and die if they don't completely reinvent themselves for the better.

    [ Parent ]

    Where? (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:41:07 AM EST
    I'm in the Pac NW and have the cheapest cable package available. MSNBC is included. I'd be happy if it wasn't, though.

    [ Parent ]
    Portland/Willamette Valley (none / 0) (#146)
    by zyx on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:12:40 PM EST
    Sorry, didn't mean to missspeak for the Big Time City North...I was up there and thought they didn't have it either, in my cheap motel...

    [ Parent ]
    :) Thanks (none / 0) (#166)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:35:00 PM EST
    I would have considered moving if the area where MSNBC is not part of the package had it still been within a certain mileage distance from my children and grandchild.

    I like Portland. Is there still a rivalry between these two cities?

    [ Parent ]

    The contradiction is that (5.00 / 18) (#27)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:43:29 AM EST
    Griffin minimized the mistakes and said they were quickly corrected in the NY Times. But to the New Yorker he talks about asking Olbermann to back off because he wa bashing Hillary too much and Olbermann refused. How is that correcting the mistakes? It isn't. Its a contradiction. And his description of Olbermann as comparable to an abusive boyfriend does not support the idea that the problems were inconsequential. Another contradiction.

    [ Parent ]
    As recovering attorney (none / 0) (#63)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:12:28 AM EST
    I read it much differently as I explain in my response to Armando.

    Heck even as a casual reader I read it much differently. I think you are trying to inject what you want to read into this when in fact it is not that easy to compare two different articles in two different publications by two different authors when it is not clear that they are talking about the 'exact' same incidents and time frames.

    [ Parent ]

    Spoken like (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:44:14 AM EST
    a true attorney.

    We, the jury, however, operate on the principle of reasonable doubt.  There's no reasonable doubt.


    [ Parent ]

    I read your response (5.00 / 7) (#125)
    by tree on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:53:31 AM EST
    Phil Griffin, senior vice president of NBC News and the executive in charge of MSNBC, a particular target of criticism, said that although a few mistakes had been made, that they had been corrected quickly and that the network's overall coverage was fair.

    Griffen here is talking about MSNBC coverage overall. He is not discussing a particular incident or time frame, except to excuse any mistakes as minor and quickly corrected. If he is discussing the network overall, he must by all reason be including the coverage by Keith Olbermann on Countdown, one of MSNBC's banner programs. He doesn't need to name each program individually because he's collectively given them a clean bill of health and a "fair" rating.

     I think your  legal recovery has hit a set back if you are arguing that Griffin did not mean to include Countdown in his blanket defense of MSNBC coverage.  All the incidents and time frames mentioned in the New Yorker, in which Griffin admits to a major problem with KO's program which KO refused to correct, are of a part and parcel of MSNBC's primary coverage, which Griffin disingenuously categorized as fair and non-sexist to the NY Times reporter.

    But I can see from your argument back and forth that you are more interested in arguing the point rather than understanding our point of view. (Hint: if you want to be a successfully recovered attorney you need to grapple with this tendency.) That said, I will leave the argument at "We agree to disagree."

       

    [ Parent ]

    Speaking for me too on this one (5.00 / 19) (#4)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:17:31 AM EST
    I'm not going back to the bullies.  Griffin got the analogy right.  Matthews and Olbermann are sometimes entertaining and smart, and I may even agree with them more often than not. But they are bullies nonetheless and the only way to take away their power is to leave them.

    I forgot to add that he is wrong (5.00 / 17) (#7)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:20:33 AM EST
    When he said we have no place else to go.

    He's never heard of TalkLeft!  I can get just and much insight in the commentary here as I ever got from Chris Matthews.  The evening time I used to spend watching Hardball and Countdown, I now spend on-line, mostly here.


    [ Parent ]

    Better than Hardball (5.00 / 7) (#9)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:22:42 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    And the only spittle is my own! (5.00 / 13) (#12)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:25:15 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    i started calling that program (none / 0) (#108)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:39:47 AM EST
    SpitBall a long time ago.  Hell, my mother is 76 and even she could see and comment on the drewl every day

    [ Parent ]
    oops (none / 0) (#109)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:40:36 AM EST
    drool, never really had to try to spell that word before.  LOL  REally how often does it come up?

    [ Parent ]
    Every day here (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by suki on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:44:24 AM EST
    at my house, unfortunately. My youngest dog is a big time drooler.

    [ Parent ]
    LOL, we are the political commentary... (5.00 / 20) (#79)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:19:54 AM EST
    ...we have been waiting for.

    [ Parent ]
    HA! (5.00 / 7) (#92)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:25:21 AM EST
    (That's my best Matthews impression).

    [ Parent ]
    Olbermann may be (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by talex on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    sometimes entertaining, but smart?

    How smart is it to knowingly alienate and chase away half your audience? He is no smarter that Kos or Josh Marshall who when it come to audience retention have showed no smarts at all.

    Also Olbermann like most of the Obama supporters refused to recognized Obama's dirty tactics and his hypocrisy on many issues. It's like they all have Mama's 'Not my Johnny' syndrome. When you allow your brain to freeze up like a protective mother instead of looking at realities all your reason, sensibility, and credibility go out the window.

    [ Parent ]

    that was one of the biggest mistakes (5.00 / 12) (#118)
    by TimNCGuy on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:46:11 AM EST
    of the media.

    It was their attitude that Clinton, no matter what she said (or Bill or anyone associated with the campaign), it MUST have always had an evil coded meaning behind it.  And, it wasn't that there MIGHT be a coded meaning, it was that there in FACT WAS ALWAYS a coded meaning.

    But, with Obama, he was considered new and fresh and there was NO WAY there could ever be a coded meaning in his words.  And, if it came from a supporter or even a memeber of the campaign, it didn't count unless it came directly out of the mouth of Obama.

    MSNBC came out and said this of Clinton many times.  And usually stated that anything a supporter had said had been directed by Clinton with her full knowledge and approval.

    [ Parent ]

    i would assume that ko is planning (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:32:17 PM EST
    on all those "new democrats" to be his audience. good luck with that!

    [ Parent ]
    Olbermann is deluded. (5.00 / 8) (#178)
    by jackyt on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM EST
    He seems to truly believe he is the reincarnation of Edward R. Murrow.

    KO doesn't get that Murrow was a REAL journalist, not a purveyor of opinion, (baked, half-baked, raw vitriol, or otherwise). Murrow was a master expositor whose commentaries were based on very solid fact, not amorphous "ooh, she's so-o-o-o-o-h scary" boogy(wo)man rants.

    That KO has been able to appoint himself the "keeper of the flame of truth" while being as much of a demagogue as Joe McCarthy ever was is the REAL travesty.

    Fraud, thy name is Keith Olbermann!

    [ Parent ]

    I've been done for 2 months (5.00 / 21) (#5)
    by Dave B on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:19:35 AM EST
    My mental health is much better now that my TV NEVER tunes in to MSNBC.  Griffin sounds like all those other Democratic hacks saying that Hillary supporters are full of crap when they claim that the will either stay home for vote for McCain.  "They have nowhere else to go..."

    Reminds me off all the Obama supporters at MyDD and Kos.  I don't know how many times I've been told not to let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.  Guess it doesn't bother them that they are telling a guy that first started knocking doors for Democrats in 1968 with my dad when I was 8 years old.  Talk about pompous.

    4 Democratic girls at dinner last night (5.00 / 19) (#29)
    by BarnBabe on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:45:13 AM EST
    So I ask, 'well, what are you going to do about the election'? Two say, they are skipping voting for President and just voting down the ticket. Whew, at least. There were no stay at homes but 4 not voting President.

    No one there likes the way Hillary was treated by the media, the DNC and Obama campaign and feel the only way to voice that displeasure where it is really felt and shows is at the voting booth.

    The general feeling was that neither one of the two contenders will be able to solve our current problems and change anything for years to come. Thus, having a vote proof Democratic Congress and Senate will have to control what is happening and they have better do a better job than the last 2 years. We all gave up MSNBC and I am the only one on-line blogging.

    Griffin describes it right on the nose. Keith ended up being that jerk. I was so disappointed in him and MSNBC. The funny thing is that I loved Keith and was so so about Hillary. Now, I love Hillary and can't waste my time on Keith. I hope Griffin understands that it is not just Keith, although he was #1, his entire crew, including Abrams and Mathews, allowed sexism to flourish within the MSNBC structure.

    [ Parent ]

    Similar anecdotes here (5.00 / 12) (#140)
    by davnee on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:08:45 PM EST
    Was just talking to a colleague Friday, who I hadn't seen in a while due to vacations.   She came into my office and we chatted, and she announced over the course of the conversation that she was never going to watch MSNBC again, and that for the first time in her life she was going to skip voting for president.  White, professional woman in her 50's.  Committed Democrat her whole life.  Oh and she doesn't do blogs.

    Friday, I also got an e-mail from a friend, Asian, professional woman in her 30's, responding to an article I'd forwarded her that mentioned the KO/Couric dust-up.  She responded that she didn't want to chat about the article because she wasn't ready to re-engage in politics yet.  She wasn't even sure if she could bring herself to vote in November.  She'd have to wait and see.  She did add a P.S., however, that she hates KO and thinks he should put himself in the worst person in the world hall of fame.  By the way, this woman's political views are distinctly to the left of mine.

    Something is happening here folks.  We'll see what it all comes to in November.  But something is definitely happening.

    [ Parent ]

    All those little data points (5.00 / 9) (#168)
    by Fabian on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:36:27 PM EST
    will be put together to make a picture.

    I think the Suffragettes would understand.  They fought to give all women the right to vote.  They fought to give us real power in our government and our lives.  

    In school, all I remember of women getting the right to vote is a date.  It wasn't until I was an adult that I found out that women fought year after year, for decades to get that far.  It was no gift, given freely by those in power the instant women asked for it.

    My vote is no gift.  It must be fought for and won.  Those who do not think it is worth while to fight for my vote will not get it.  Too bad Obama didn't propose a women's outreach as he did for religious interests.  There are two things that tell how much a politician values a constituency - time and money.  Right now, it seems that Obama has quite a few priorities ahead of Women and Clinton Supporters.

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, same here. (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by Marco21 on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:19:00 PM EST
    I was out to breakfast with a friend this morning. She loves Olbermann but hasn't been  a regular viewer over the last few months due to her job. When  I brought up comments made by Keith - his flat-out BS regarding Hillary's RFK comments, etc. - she was just flattened and saddened.

    I urged her to look everything we discussed up for herself and not to take my word for it. Can't wait to talk to her about it further after reading this thread this morning. i do think it is safe to say, however, that when the dust clears, KO has ko'd another viewer.

    [ Parent ]

    Had dinner with four friends (5.00 / 8) (#209)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    all women.  Three of us over 55.  Lifelong dems.  One hispanic, on African American, and me(Italian American).  The fourth, a young Navajo woman, is in Obama's camp but not a diehard.  We three older women are all angry, all frustrated, and all stunned at the patronizing attitude of the (younger) men in the party.  None of us will ever tune in to MSNBC again unless there is substantial change.  All three of us tremendously disappointed with Rachel Maddow. While we will still probably vote Obama, none of us will work to get him  elected.  And two of us were pretty consistent workers for the party.  

    Last night I had dinner with my gay cousin and her partner.  They are so ANGRY.  Both are reregistering as Independents.  Angry as h*ll at the dems and angrier still at the media.

    Like so many here I once counted myself a Countdown viewer/supporter. KO's hate driven, ego driven nastiness was a HUGE turnoff.  Now I see him as a jock jerk.  That's all.

    The fact is that the democratic party has betrayed women badly.  Dean's "there was sexism" is too little too late.  Donna Brazille was race baiting and I resent it.  Hillary has never been a racist and for any of them to imply differently has angered me.  
    Women have been betrayed. (Some) Young women may not get it yet.  But it is true.  

    Color me angry.
    Towanda.

    [ Parent ]

    Fareed Zakaria (CNN) suggested that (none / 0) (#159)
    by Aqua Blue on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:27:47 PM EST
    there is not much difference between the McCain and Obama positions on Iraq.   That they are now coming close together and would not take much to have bipartisan approach.  (Brookings Institute guests were discussing positions.)

    Zakaria questioned how this would impact political decisions in November.

    [ Parent ]

    IMO Obama Will Not End The Occupation (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:41:56 PM EST
    of Iraq. Due to military and political necessities, both Obama and McCain may reduce the number of troops there without actually ending the occupation.

    The only hope of ending the occupation is that the Iraqis refuse to sanction our presence there.

    WARE: What we're also hearing from the Iraqi government is they may go it alone, using a hangover snippet of law left over from the original American occupation authority of Paul Bremer.

    They could create their own legislation in their own Congress or Parliament, and thereby dictate to America what U.S. troops can and cannot do in this country, where they can go, where they must stay, and how many you're allowed to have. So you may see the Iraqis taking over this war, and you may see a lot of U.S. gains being drawn back.




    [ Parent ]
    i highly recommend that (none / 0) (#167)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:35:56 PM EST
    msnbc and the obama campaign not discount this anger and these viewers/voters. obama needs to get away from his advisors and do some serious meditating. he could still bring a number back but personally i think it not in him to do that. soon it will if not already too late with these voters. as for ko, it has been too late for a long time not that he cares.

    [ Parent ]
    Whoa. (5.00 / 6) (#8)
    by pie on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:20:40 AM EST
    Another one bites the dust.

    These people have no credibility.

    Personally, (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Burned on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:23:42 AM EST
    I never found him clever or witty.
    I thought he was a blustering, sort of buffoonish, cartoon character.
    Some of the stuff he railed against, which I welcomed in its intent, would have been much better served by someone less....Olbermannish.

    I don't get MSNBC anyway, I saw his stuff on Youtube, maybe twice. So they never had me to lose.

    But they would have lost me!!

    I never quite under stood (none / 0) (#60)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:08:45 AM EST
    the way he used Neville Chamberlain in such an ideosyncratic way.

    Chamberlain's legacy is kinda complex historically but appeasement is over used didactically to point out to polls not to lose their nerve.  OTOH Olberman came up with a theory that defies commonsense.

    [ Parent ]

    BTW, (5.00 / 15) (#13)
    by pie on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:26:28 AM EST
    Griffin believed that Olbermann was beginning to alienate his core audience...

    That core, which includes men, has also been a good portion of the democratic base.

    Keith, you repeated the lies and smears with glee.  See ya around.

    What A Idiot (5.00 / 10) (#14)
    by squeaky on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    Usually you would see this sort of arrogance and gross overestimation of ones self worth from a young person who has just had his or her first bit of success. He probably thinks that he is the next coming of Russert.... gag. I am glad that I do not have a teevee.

    The guy is clearly delusional. I thought he was just an entertainer playing to his audience, that he takes himself seriously as a top journalist or critical thinker is laughably pathetic.

    Hmmm (5.00 / 7) (#15)
    by suki on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:32:40 AM EST
    could this explain someone going to web sites to announce their 'special comments' in advance?
    Perhaps someone is worried about ratings?
    As for nowhere else to go... woo boy, denial isn't pretty, is it?
    And I have an idea of where else Olbermann and Co. can go, but I'll refrain from saying it here.

    Score one for Phil Griffin. (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by clio on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:34:41 AM EST
    I used to be one of Countdown's "average" viewers.
    Made an effort to watch the show every night-and it was not at a convenient time for me.  But I stopped sometime in March, having turned off Chrissy-baby months before that.

    I won't be back:  I blocked MSNBC and NBC from my preferred channels lineup (as I did FOX years ago)  and no one in our household ever looks at them now, even accidentally.

    Since I don't have cable or satellite, (5.00 / 17) (#19)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:34:41 AM EST
    I never "had" the MSNBC Boyz to begin with, but Griffin assumes that those who do have to "go" someplace - that "nowhere" is simply not an option - and in that he is wrong: no one has to go anywhere, but they may choose to go into the next room to pick up a book to read, or outside to look at the stars, or to the fridge to grab a glass of wine and sit down and have real conversation with the spouse.  How novel - a world without TV...

    It's amazing how peaceful it is when the TV is silenced, and no one is yammering his or her self-important opinions at us.

    I just keep thinking about that line in the recent Jack Nicholson/Morgan Freeman movie - The Bucket List (which I didn't see, but caught this in the promos): "No one cares what you think."

    I picture thousands of post cards to MSNBC and Olbermann with just that sentiment.

    Seriously (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by Nadai on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:24:00 AM EST
    It isn't like cable/network news is a necessity of life.  There's plenty else to do that doesn't involve listening to some idiot shriek at me.

    I like the postcard idea a lot.  Maybe we should pick ones with pictures of BBQ grills or knitting needles or roses or footballs - whatever else we're spending our time on rather than listening to their "indispensable" "news" programs.

    [ Parent ]

    Olbermann flamed out (5.00 / 9) (#20)
    by MichaelGale on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:36:23 AM EST
    in every job he has ever had in television.

    What MSNBC has is a psychosomatic, baby who loves doing his temper tantrums in front of millions.

    That pathos is in MSNBC's corporate, where they sit and take it. Don't they know they are the joke as much as Olbermann.

    The New Yorker piece is damning to television news. Validates the silliness of the new 'journalism'.

    4th of July is coming up. (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by RonK Seattle on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:21:06 AM EST
    Didja ever notice the big shows buy new fireworks every year, instead of relighting the ones they lit up and blew off the year before?

    What's up with that, anyway?

    [ Parent ]

    Does Griffin really think people won't pick (5.00 / 16) (#21)
    by pluege on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:37:45 AM EST
    "nowhere" over sickening egotistical jingoism, narcissist self-aggrandizement, and immature bullying hatred? Is he nuts? Griffin apparently suffers from more of the egomania infesting NBC.

    O'Reilly announced (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    His viewership out-numbered KO's last week by 500,000. I think people have found a place to go.

    [ Parent ]
    Shoot, I've been watching cable on demand... (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Maria Garcia on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:23:02 AM EST
    ...when I feel the need to have my TV on. So little of TV news is actually informative, and if they are vying for a share of entertainment viewing they've got a long way to go. For that there are plenty of other options.

    [ Parent ]
    i have silence of the lambs on right now. (5.00 / 0) (#170)
    by hellothere on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:38:36 PM EST
    tv movies and some others such as burn notice will get my time this summer.

    [ Parent ]
    I totally don't get his idea (5.00 / 13) (#138)
    by Valhalla on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 12:07:01 PM EST
    that there's nowhere to go.  There has never before, in the history of humankind, been as many other places to go.

    He's not the only newspaper in a one-newspaper town circa 1920.


    [ Parent ]

    Sceaming at the TV (5.00 / 8) (#22)
    by PlayInPeoria on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:37:50 AM EST
    was detrimental to my health..... I quit watching MSNBC.

    There would have to be major restructuring for me to ever watch the channel... can't call it a news channel.

    I will be even more bitter towards the channel should the Dems fail to capture the WH!


    I Just Love The Theme (5.00 / 19) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 10:42:02 AM EST
    But I do think they're going to come back. There's nowhere else to go."

    MSNBC and the NEW Democratic Party should collaborate and write a song for this meme.

    Life is full of options and not turning on my TV is one of them. Not voting for Obama is another. Don't have to go anywhere to refuse to participate in supporting things that do reflect my interests or my values.

    It's very Noel Coward. (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:15:47 AM EST
    Don't let's be beastly to Obama...

    [ Parent ]
    Don't understand your comment (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:25:31 AM EST
    Don't see how my comment could be defined as beastly to anyone by any definition of the world. Lack of agreement or support in my world does not equate to

    1 politics is a beastly profession awful, horrible, rotten, nasty, foul, objectionable, unpleasant, disagreeable, offensive, vile, abominable, hateful, detestable, terrible, godawful. antonym pleasant.
    2 he was beastly to her unkind, malicious, mean, nasty, unpleasant, unfriendly, spiteful, cruel, vicious, base, foul, malevolent, despicable, contemptible, horrible, horrid, rotten. antonym kind.

    Dictionary


    New definitions of words to go along with a new brand of politics?    

    [ Parent ]
    The Lyrical quality of the (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Salo on Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:31:07 AM EST
    quote you made sounded like something Noel Coward might have written.

    Don't let's be beastly to the Germans...