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RCP Updates Its Popular Vote and Delegate Totals

Real Clear Politics as of 10 pm ET:

  • Votes with Michigan and Florida as cast: Hillary leads by Clinton 303,785.
  • Votes with Michigan and Florida as cast and the cacus states estimates for WA, IA, ME and NV which didn't keep track: Hillary leads by 193,563.
  • Votes with Florida and Michigan, with uncommitted in Michigan going to Obama: Hillary leads by 65,617.
  • Obama is only ahead if you give him the uncommitted in Michigan and count the above caucus states, and then it's by 44,605.

More...

The superdelegates are free to choose their own popular vote totals. They can factor in the votes she got in the Nebraska, Washington and Idaho primaries if they want. They can decide Obama shouldn't benefit from any Michigan votes because Obama removed himself voluntarily from the ballot.

As for pledged delegates from the state primaries and caucuses, not including superdelegates, Obama's lead is 1739 to 1624 -- meaning his lead is only 115 delegates. The superdelegates are free to change their mind or weigh in any time up until the convention.

Seems to me since Obama has a small lead in pledged delegates and Hillary leads in the popular vote, the superdelegates need to turn their attention to the electoral map and who would be the better candidate against McCain.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Don't forget that a chunk of the pledged delegates (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:04:34 PM EST
    came from Edwards, as well as the screwy Texas caucuses after Clinton won the primary.

    Of the votes that have been counted and tabulated independently, Clinton is up by 303,000 votes. Everything else is a guess, and you have to be very charitable to Obama in your guessing to give him the lead.

    Someone just arriving from Mars looking at the results would think that things are at worst a tie for Clinton. Yet the narrative is that she's hopelessly behind. It's very aggravating.

    But Obama wins when you count non-voters (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by Lysis on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:44:46 PM EST
    I can't believe how many of you are forgetting the people that didn't vote.  He really should get some more of Hillary's delegates.  So many of those in the states she won that didn't vote would've voted for him if they'd come to the polls.

    /snark.

    [ Parent ]

    You are kidding, right?? (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:50:55 PM EST
    We should somehow devine from those who did not vote??  Hey, let us just all stay home and have the Rules Comm. assign delegates.  

    By the way, does anyone recall that there was a snow storm the day fo the MI primaries and that can account for the mediocre turnout?

    [ Parent ]

    What about all the citizens of the free world? (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by feet on earth on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:11 PM EST
    This is the Leader of the Free World that we are electing? What about their votes?

    Lets give them 10% of Hilary votes, can't disenfranchise them, can we? /dbl snark

    [ Parent ]

    They are giving all the uncommitted to Obama, (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by Teresa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:06:35 PM EST
    not just his share per exit polls. I think she leads if you use only his share. How much benefit should someone be given by not competing?

    As I understand it. The RBC allowed the parties (none / 0) (#40)
    by ProChoise on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:22:05 PM EST
    involved in this dispute to resolve this matter without consideration to the Michigan votes which they considered invalid.

    The only way the allocation of delegates makes logical sense is that if it was negotiated by the Michigan Democratic Party, and the representatives of the candidates.

    The Votes from Michigan were not considered. Like all things political it was a compromise.

    [ Parent ]

    The DNC (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by americanincanada on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:30:26 PM EST
    does not have the power to ignore or invalidate a state's certified popular vote.

    [ Parent ]
    BTD said in the other thread that (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:37:16 PM EST
    MI's vote was recognized, which might be different from certified. Kinda like the difference between saying sleeping with someone not really lying about sex if you don't actually sleep!! Samantics

    [ Parent ]
    Another definition of samantics (none / 0) (#174)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:17:47 AM EST
    Running for president when you're a conservative senator from Kansas.

    [ Parent ]
    It wasn't a compromise (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:54:19 PM EST
    Obama got everything he wanted and Clinton got what she previously rejected.

    That is. not. a. compromise.

    [ Parent ]

    But his supporters (none / 0) (#157)
    by reslez on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:51:40 PM EST
    so generously helped themselves to only 4 of her MI delegates! According to the report I saw on MSNBC's website, Obama supporters had the votes for a 50/50 split. I interpret that as meaning the MI outcome was essentially a product of brute force. The popular vote never had a bearing on the result. Very eye-opening! The only reason the committee decided to make a fairer apportionment was so the vote tally would look less blatantly split.

    The same report cautions "against counting her popular vote in the state". It looks like the Obama camp is actively encouraging the media to ignore the votes cast by Democrats in MI.  I guess I'm still innocent enough to be shocked by that.  At least we know we can't entirely blame the media for the message. When a parrot says a bad word you look to the owner, not the parrot.

    [ Parent ]

    to an ordinary mortal like me, (none / 0) (#185)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:00:55 AM EST
    none. but then, sen. obama is clearly no ordinary mortal.

    How much benefit should someone be given by not competing?


    [ Parent ]
    Uncommitted proportion (5.00 / 0) (#14)
    by zebedee on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:06:37 PM EST
    I posted this a few mins ago as the previous thread was closing so sorry to be repeating, I thought it was more relevant to this thread.

    ******************

    The only way for Obama to be in the lead is if he gets the caucus estimates of 110,222 (which may be fair, although the unfairness overall of caucuses is well documented) plus ALL the MI uncommitted. In the exit polls, he got around 70% of the non-Clinton votes) so one were to give him anything for MI it would have to be 70% of the 238K of uncommitted (about 166K).

    This leaves Hillary 27K ahead. After Montana and S Dakota this particular count will be almost tied, depending on turnout (probably 200K-400k combined) and margin.

    Of course, as far as actual votes cast (which is how she usually expresses it) she is safely ahead. It's telling that the only way he can actch up is to be given votes he didn't receive.

    I think Hillary should make more of the EV metric (she leads 308-224) and say the other metrics (pledged dels and pop vote) are essentially tied. He will still get the full benefit of his small pledged del lead as the threshhold for SDs is higher for her than him.

    What is the EV metric for (none / 0) (#23)
    by coolit on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:12:54 PM EST
    Obama vs McCain?

    [ Parent ]
    EV metric (none / 0) (#37)
    by zebedee on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:21:13 PM EST
    Allocating the same electoral votes as the GE to the primary winner, on a winner-take-all basis. Just as if they were candidates in the actual Nov election. So winning states like FL and OH become more dramatic, just like in the GE.

    [ Parent ]
    no, what i mean was... (none / 0) (#47)
    by coolit on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:29:17 PM EST
    you said,

    "I think Hillary should make more of the EV metric (she leads 308-224"

    What is the score if you look at Obama vs. Mccain?

    Do we know that yet?

    [ Parent ]

    Highly Speculative Based on Polling (1.00 / 0) (#82)
    by Spike on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:43:23 PM EST
    If you check out FiveThirtyEight.com it is currently estimated based on state polling that:

    • Clinton leads McCain 290.7 to 247.3;
    • Obama leads McCain 272.8 to 265.2.

    It is very early for such analysis to say much about November. But as it stands now, they would both narrowly defeat McCain. Due to the fact that election day is still five months away, in terms of electability, they are basically tied using these numbers.

    [ Parent ]
    it was in the 250s for a long time (none / 0) (#156)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:50:55 PM EST
    some polls came out this past week that put Obama at 272 or 276, but the ohio one clearly looks like an outlier.

    [ Parent ]
    electoral-vote.com is updated daily (none / 0) (#188)
    by cymro on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:48:32 AM EST
    Today's estimate:

    Obama 276     McCain 238     Ties 24
    Clinton 327     McCain 194     Ties 17

    If you want to understand the situation in a bit more detail, look at the polling data in the table for states that are close. The map is based on the latest poll in each state, so states that are close sometimes switch sides when a new poll is published.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry... (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:06:42 PM EST
    ... he doesn't get all of the uncommitted MI vote. Not even close.

    Skepti has been banned (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:13:58 PM EST
    and his/her 100 comments in the past 3 days erased. Skepti was previously banned as Tano.

    [ Parent ]
    Can you do IP bans? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:15:29 PM EST
    Might make re-registering more difficult.

    [ Parent ]
    I don't want to (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:26:11 PM EST
    give out that information.

    [ Parent ]
    Understood (none / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:42:50 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Please don't do IP bans, I don't have my own (none / 0) (#171)
    by Newt on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:12:56 AM EST
    computer to post from.  I sometimes use library access and other shared computers.

    [ Parent ]
    you can change your IP, it isn't (none / 0) (#186)
    by cpinva on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:03:31 AM EST
    madated that it be static. this person clearly has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much time on their hands! lol

    [ Parent ]
    THANK YOU (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Eleanor A on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:19:05 PM EST
    Seriously.  Makes things around here much easier when folks aren't allowed to constantly disrupt threads.

    [ Parent ]
    I knew that was Tano...thanks Jeralyn (none / 0) (#62)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Giving all uncommitted in MI to BO is not fair (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:15:19 PM EST
    One cannot give ALL uncommitted to Obama.   I think he should get ZERO since his name was not on the ballot.

    Even 50-70% of Uncommitted in MI - which Obama supporters can argue is fair, is very generous. There were after all other candidates in the race at the time of the MI primary. I believe BTD has proposed such an adjustment. 75% of uncommitted is 178,626 votes and would make a difference by 60k. By that metric, Obama would be behind in that category as well, by about 15k votes.

    I also think that the 110k+ caucus estimates should not be used. Even RCP mentions the lower numbers as reflected by primaries that were held in states such as WA.

    What is fair? (5.00 / 0) (#51)
    by MichaelL on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:32:08 PM EST
    ...basing the uncommitted off of exit polls? Obama would net about 188k votes from that. But if you say the exit polls are an accurate reflection, how do you explain that a significant % of those who voted for Clinton in the primary said they would have voted for Obama and Edwards had their names appeared on the ballot. This gets at the entire validity of the primary as a whole, as the turnout in the Michigan primary was 24% of Kerry's vote in '04, far below all other primaries.

    The two candidates are so close in the popular vote that their are many, many different ways of counting things that alter the final tally. Which is why this isn't really going to be a winning argument for Clinton, because which one you pick is probably going to reflect who you want to win.

    Fivethirtyeight.com put out a popular vote counting spread sheet. My personal favorite is one that has the two candidates separated by just 5042 votes.

    [ Parent ]

    Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:32:10 PM EST
    At some point someone had done a delegate matchup of if the SDs voted with their constituency and Hillary was ahead, is there a way to find that?  Or did I imagine that?

    I'd actually like to see that as well. (none / 0) (#73)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:40:17 PM EST
    Or if one doesn't exist, we could probably build one.  Would the constituency be by state alone (winner-take-all?) or by congressional district, or...?

    [ Parent ]
    That is the question, the will of your people (none / 0) (#77)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:41:52 PM EST
    who are your people?  that is what all the Obama folks, move-on etc were saying.  Now it's just aggregated delegate numbers they are attached to.  Not specific people.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#86)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:47:43 PM EST
    Wikipedia has a list of all the 2008 SD's and their names. One could theoretically match each within a certain hierarchy for the type of SD: Reps with their congressional district, senators/govs with their states, etc.  Should only leave a handful of SD's unable to be slated with their constituents.

    [ Parent ]
    If one liked and had an (none / 0) (#88)
    by Stellaaa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:49:48 PM EST
    inclination for such a thing

    [ Parent ]
    Problem is (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by Eleanor A on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:04:53 PM EST
    Many of the SDs are not electeds in the traditional sense.  They're elected members of the DNC.

    How that works in my state, anyway, is that voters actually put people onto the state Dem Executive Committee.  That Committee then elects the handful of people that represent them to the DNC.

    (Mine don't do a great job, but that's a rant for a different day.)  Anyway, it's going to be hard for the average Dem to hold them accountable.

    Plus, you have various offices that get DNC spots, like heads of the state Dem Women's Federation.  Past president of the YDs Jay Parmlee is one of the uncommitteds.  Jerry Lee of TN is the head of the state AFL-CIO.

    It's just going to be hard to make the call on some of them.  

    One saving grace is that I noticed many of the U.S. Reps. still undeclared are in very purple districts.  Will they come out for Obama, knowing he likely will lose their districts?  Who knows.

    Personally, I think many of them have held off to avoid all the badgering.  Why come out early and piss off the other side, and then have to hear all about it for months.  I don't think they want to have to take the heat any longer than necessary.

    I'd like to think the purple-district folks will go for Hillary because she either won their states or is likely to win in November, but after yesterday's RBC fiasco I'm beginning to wonder if the fix isn't already in.

    Anyone hear more Denver talk today?

    [ Parent ]

    Got it. Thanks. (none / 0) (#119)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:08:31 PM EST
    I suppose we could use this list and do some more creative math (winner take all by state, etc) but all those arguments become too muddy for anyone to understand, so they lose their punch, anyway.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually... (none / 0) (#112)
    by gmo on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:03:20 PM EST
    demconwatch.blogspot.com  might already have this. Checking now.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn - Some RCP push back (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by dwmorris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:35:44 PM EST
    Obama is only ahead if you give him the uncommitted in Michigan and count the above caucus states, and then it's by 44,605

    If the MI uncommitted votes are apportioned between Obama, Edwards, and Richardson in accordance with the published exit polls, Obama's vote total drops by 64,504 votes.

    With this correction/adjustment, Clinton leads by 19,899 votes under the scenario that includes FL/MI and the IA/NV/ME/WA estimates.

    Since the race is so close, I would argue that the RCP numbers need to be challenged.

    Caucus estimates (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by marisol on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:53:57 PM EST
    I also challenge those four caucus state estimates. My state doesn't keep formal vote counts for the caucuses; and if it did the delegate split wouldn't match up with the actual "votes" due to several other quirks in the system.  

    At best, it's a rough estimate that's even less accurate than exit polls.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree 100% (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by dwmorris on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:53:44 PM EST
    I brought this issue up in another post, and BTW said that lots of people have looked at the numbers. Nevertheless, I srill think that RCP should be transparent about how they've derived their estimates since they seem to have become the de facto gold standard. I wasn't able to find any information on their site, and I don't know of any other competing tabulations to serve as QC.

    [ Parent ]
    that setup would be amusing (none / 0) (#69)
    by boredmpa on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:38:52 PM EST
    i'd love to hear OFB saying that the WA primary is more valid than the caucus.

    [ Parent ]
    Don't forget WA & NE (none / 0) (#162)
    by DWCG on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:58:54 PM EST
    He loses 50K more by using the Washington primary results instead of the caucus.

    And 11K more by using the Nebraska primary results instead of the caucus.

    And don't forget that he was polling a lot better in the exit polls than he was actually performing at the secret ballot box, but I'll concede that on rhetorical grounds.  The WA and NE results though, should not be conceded.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#170)
    by dwmorris on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:11:09 AM EST
    I'm not optimistic, however, that substituting the primary votes will get much traction (i.e. I'm not holding my breath waiting on RCP to post those tabulations). Hopefully Clinton can maintain some margin on Tuesday so that the argument is moot.

    [ Parent ]
    If John Edwards "suspended" his (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:42:22 PM EST
    campaign, and he was part of the "uncommitted" vote in MI, how can they just take whatever portion might have been his and give it away. Does he have to give his permission.

    I've seen the claim (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by JavaCityPal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:27 PM EST
    that because he endorsed Obama, he effectively conceded.

    [ Parent ]
    And he's only ahead by one precinct (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:53:16 PM EST
    in Illinois -- heck, by a couple of blocks in Chicago -- ahead even under the popular vote count at RCP that has him less than 25,000 ahead.

    I've noted reading this before, but it's relevant again to point out that even the popular vote count most favorable to him at RCP, the one based on estimates (that seem overstated) in caucus states and based on unopened ballots in MI -- and who knows, maybe some astrologer hired onto Dean's DNC staff now . . . anyway, even the best count for Obama for some time has been entirely owing to only his own home state, and two-thirds of that from Chicago alone.  And how much of that is the proverbial corpses going to the polls in Chicago, who knows?

    So for those who discount Puerto Rico because it doesn't count in the general election, even looking at these popular vote counts before today would have to make sane SDs wonder if they want to bet the whole election on one city, Obama's hometown . . . but it's Clinton's, too, and she would win it just as well.  

    I.e., Illinois is blue, no matter what -- and without it, Obama's argument is 'way too reliant on 'way too many red states, no matter what.  

    [ Parent ]

    Oops, this ought to have been under Chamonix's (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:54:32 PM EST
    comment about Illinois.  I don't know how this comment hopped around with a mind of its own . . . sort of like the SD who switched back to Clinton again. :-)

    [ Parent ]
    LOL (5.00 / 0) (#108)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:00:03 PM EST
    maybe some astrologer hired onto Dean's DNC staff now

    I hear they use a water dowser

    [ Parent ]

    Stop being rational (none / 0) (#187)
    by DWCG on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 01:10:16 AM EST
    This is the Democratic presidential primary we're talking about here.

    [ Parent ]
    Jeralyn.,.. (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by p lukasiak on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:54:34 PM EST
    I know this is off-topic, but...

    There are provisions in the Rules/Charter of the Democratic Party that it operate "in the sunshine".  

    Yesterday, it was glaringly obvious that those provisions were violated with impunity.

    Given that, does anyone who has given money to the DNC have the right to get it back if they demand it back?  Would someone who had given money to the DNC have standing to sue the DNC for the egregious violations of its own rules, and the fundamental principles behind those rules?

    Garbage in, garbage out (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by nellre on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:58:33 PM EST
    The DNC's management of this primary has been so incredibly dysfunctional that the truth is buried along with the unity pony in a pile of manure.

    Given the guesswork to come up with any  metric other than the delegate count... there is a large margin of error... and this race would be declared a tie by an unbiased observer. You'd need somebody not from earth though.

    The delegate count is less ambiguous in terms of counts, but is also patently unfair.


    Prediction is very difficult (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Prabhata on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:58:38 PM EST
    especially about the future - Niels Bohr

    Being in a position of uncertainty is extremely difficult for the mind.  The reality is that we don't know what will happen the next minute.  If Hillary is staying in the race, it's because she is a savvy politician in a game she knows.  We can sit here and guess.  Let Hillary do her job.  Contribute if you have a dollar to spare, and stop predicting.  I'm old enough to know that Bohr is 100 percent right.

    There was a thread by Jake Tapper (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:00:49 PM EST
    in which he had two mathematicians extrapolating  based on the fictional nonvoters in MI by comparing actual voter turnout in other states with the variable being overall population.

    When it gets this complicated, you know you are in trouble.  Counting votes of those who did not vote is crazy.  Count the votes as voted.  If someone stayed home, so be it.  Others voted.  If someone withdraw his name from the ballot, then he needs to live with that choice.

    This could be such a clear and clean perspective and really the only honest way to view it.  Leave the "uncommitted" as just that.  Let Obama contact them, if they support him, fine.  If they do not, then that is fine also.  

    Too bad the Rulz Comm does not agree.

    stunning wins for four months in a row (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by DandyTIger on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:34:01 PM EST
    is what's really amazing and I think unprecedented here. We have the presumptive nominee loosing the votes for four months in a row. And not just any four months, but the last four months of the party primary. That says a lot about what the voters want, and who has the momentum, and who can win in November. I don't think this level of loosing has ever happened by someone who eventually was the nominee.

    It's clear that Obama got a head start with some brilliant campaign strategies of storming the caucuses and mostly going after red states that are usually ignored. Quite clever. But when the real politics hit the road, he has failed. We see his limits. He can't compete in the contests that are the most important in a general election. And he can't withstand the scrutiny of his voting record, his personal circle of friends, or controversial things in his background. I'd wager that if there was vetting early on in the campaign, we would have seen every month be like the last four months.

    The bottom line for SD's is that the last four months of the campaign should be weighed more heavily than the first months. These last four months show the voters preferences after they have gotten to know Obama a little. Imagine the voters preferences after they get to know him a lot more (via Republicans).

    "Four months in a row": Reality Check (none / 0) (#190)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:46:36 AM EST
    Presumably you mean the months of March, April, May and June.

    • Today is June 1. Forgive me for being fussy, but in my book 'the first day of a month' does not equal 'a month'.

    • The last primaries in the whole contest are on June 3. By my count, four months before June 3 was February 3, so the last four months of the contest really include Super Tuesday, as well as Obama's 11 straight wins to close out the month of February.

    • Understandably, you would prefer that people not consider February. I hope I can surprise you a bit here: OK. (Like Obama, I can afford to be magnanimous.) OK, let's only consider, as you say, Obama's losing streak -- only the contests that took place after February.

    I will omit nothing:

    March 4: Obama won Vermont. Clinton won Rhode Island. Clinton won Ohio. Obama narrowly won Texas. (Yes, I know; I'm sorry, but he really did. We keep score by counting delegates won. Your candidate should try it sometime.)

    March 8: Obama won Wyoming.

    March 11: Obama won Mississippi.

    March 12 - April 21: In these six weeks -- fully half the three-month period you want to focus on, Obama recorded not a single victory. Not a one. This is indeed shocking and unprecedented -- how could a supposed front-runner go six weeks without winning a thing? [What's that you say? No contests were held in that six-week period? Oh. Well... Never mind.]

    April 22: Clinton won Pennsylvania.

    May 3: Obama won Guam.

    May 6: Clinton narrowly won Indiana. Obama won  North Carolina.

    May 13: Clinton won West Virginia.

    May 20: Clinton won Kentucky. Obama won Oregon.

    June 1: Clinton won Puerto Rico.

    June 3: Obama is expected to win South Dakota and Montana.

    In all this 3-month period, Clinton will have won seven contests, and Obama will have won nine. (OK -- throw out Guam, where he won by 7 votes and they split the delegates evenly.) Any way you cut it, her longest winning streak during this whole period has been three contests (IN, WV, KY). And remember, it was just after her famous Indiana victory that Tim Russert declared Obama the nominee.

    Since then, Obama has effectively stopped running against Clinton, choosing to begin his GE campaign against McCain instead. He has barely shown his head in WV, KY, or that critical swing state, PR. I think that was a mistake on his part, but what do I know? Anyway, Clinton racked up a lot of delegates in those 3 primaries. Congratulations on those wins.

    This ignores the superdelegates. Talk about burying the lead! In the last four months, Obama has steadily, inexorably gained more superdelgates than Clinton. Four months ago, he was about 100 superdelegates behind Clinton -- now he's about 45 delegates ahead (more like 60 ahead if you take into account things like the Pelosi Club and Obama's advantage in unnamed Add-ons).

    Remarkably, through this prolonged dry spell, Obama has consistently gained on Clinton in the one metric that really counts: total delegates. You can crow about your Joe-mentum all you like -- that's the story.

    That's the cold reality: Your preferred candidate is not going to win the nomination. It's not your year.

    It sucks, I know. Ever since 1984 (not counting 1996), my preferred candidate has lost the nomination:

    • 1984: Hart
    • 1988: Babbitt, then Gore
    • 1992: Tsongas
    • 2000: Bradley
    • 2004: Dean

    What can I say? Take it from a survivor: Life goes on.

    [ Parent ]
    But the Pledge Delegate Count IS wildly at odds (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by DWCG on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:39:30 AM EST
    If the results had been wildly at odds with the pledged delegates, Clinton would have a viable argument to bring to the convention.

    But they are.

    For argument sake lets not count Michigan one of three ways:
    a) without caucus
    b) with caucus
    c) in states with caucus and primary using the primary results

    "A" yields Obama +24,000 votes out of 35,000,000 cast (+0.1% Obama)

    "B" yields Obama +134,000 votes out of 35,000,000 cast (+0.4% Obama)

    "C" yields Obama +63,000 votes ("B" minus 50K for WA and minus 11K Nebraska) out of 35,000,000 cast (+0.3% Obama)

    And yet in all scenarios out of 3346 pledged delegates, Obama leads by 120 delegates:
    1709.5 Obama (51.1%)
    1589.5 Clinton (47.5%)

    So what is under the best scenario for Obama ("B") a 0.4% advantage in votes, is a 3.6% advantage in delegates.  Understand that's a DIFFERENCE BY NINE-FOLD!

    If the allocation were equitable the delegate count would be the same as the popular vote and Obama would not have be up 51.1-47.5, he'd be up 49.5-49.1, in which case the breakdown would be:

    1656 - Obama
    1643 - Clinton

    He'd be leading by 13 delegates instead of 120!  Again, a difference of 9-FOLD!

    And with the guy losing every competitive contest since March, all the big states (except his own), all the swing states and performing poorly in major demographics and matching up worse in swing states against McCain vs. Clinton the Superdelegates would be just stupid to not compensate for the 13 vote pledged delegate advantage and nominate Clinton-Obama as the ticket.

    No sane human being is going to believe what the Clinton campaign's numbers are asking them to believe: that Obama has no base of support in Michigan.

    The point is - you can't count votes not counted.  It's like counting the disenfranchised voters who were scrubbed by Diebold as felons in Florida 2000 and claiming Gore victory on that basis.  Otherwise Edwards supporters could go to the convention and argue about how many votes and delegates he would have had he not dropped out before Super Tuesday.

    Then the Kucinich supporters, Richardson, Biden and Dodd start making their claims.  Heck even the Draft Gore folk count the votes based on polling.  

    "I mean really this whole voting and counting the vote thing is so darn complicated, taxing and waste of time, lets just let the computers and polls do it all for us."

    Should read... (none / 0) (#183)
    by DWCG on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:42:33 AM EST
    "For argument sake lets not count Michigan, and count the remaining of states the following three ways"

    (among other typos)

    [ Parent ]

    World Series (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by pope on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:47:58 AM EST
    I really like the World Series Analogy

    Game 1  HRC 12   BHO  2
    Game 2  HRC 2    BHO  4
    Game 3  HRC 10   BHO  6
    Game 4  HDC 3    BHO  4
    Game 5  HRC 2    BHO  1
    Game 6  HRC 10   BHO 12
    Game 7  HRC 4    BHO  6

    BHO  Wins Series  4 games to 3

    Total Runs Scored
    HRC - 43
    BHO - 35

    Using this ...fans of HRC would argue that she should have won the series based on scoring more runs total.

    Ok that is fine to argue.... and if you want to change the rules of baseball to whoever scores the most runs in a series wins the title... then thats fine....  but currently the rules state that the team who wins the most games in the series wins the title...

    its the candidate who wins the most delegates.

    I wish Hillary well in her politcal career ... but this is over.

    I am concerned that SDs won't (4.60 / 5) (#4)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:00:27 PM EST
    calculate in the pop vote unless it is overwhelmingly clear that CLinton won it (which of course it is to us), but I mean to everyone out there in MSM.  There is enormous pressure to crown Obama at this point.  CNN did a good job today talking about pop vote but...  I guess I am losing hope as the day goes on and the realization sinks in that she did not get the 200,000 vote difference that might have swayed some SDs.  And South Dakota is supposed to be close but still leaning some toward Obama, and he should win MT.  

    I will be amazed (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:02:59 PM EST
    if Obama doesn't win SD by 10 points. If Tom Daschle can't deliver his home state. . .

    [ Parent ]
    exactly, (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:05:23 PM EST
    so how do we start to make this transition if that happens, as expected?  I mean I can't just jump on the bandwagon on Wed or Thurs.  I am not sure what I am trying to say expect that I feel like a death in the family is going to happen any day now and there is nothing I can do about it.

    [ Parent ]
    I can't even spell tonight (none / 0) (#16)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:06:54 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    t-o-n-i-g-h-t (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:34:06 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    very funny (none / 0) (#59)
    by bjorn on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:34:53 PM EST
    thanks for making me smile

    [ Parent ]
    yer welcome.....my pleasure.....buck up bjorn (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:40:23 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    It will work out (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:08:36 PM EST
    You don't really have to do anything.

    [ Parent ]
    Tom Daschle (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:05:26 PM EST
    Daschle couldn't even deliver South Dakota for himself in 2004.

    [ Parent ]
    Daschle and the Native Americans (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by befuddledvoter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:46:12 PM EST
    They did not back him in the voting booth. That is how he lost.  Russell Means was disgusted with him and openly endorsed Thune, the Repub., who won.  While several of the tribal leaders backed Daschle, they never rallied their voters at all.  It was an endorsement without meaning.  Daschle has made a lot of enemies in SD.  Over the past few years he has been working on some projects with the tribes to gain favor.  Not sure how well that has worked out.  I know someone who works on one of the reservations.  She is Clinton all the way.  

    [ Parent ]
    If you ever listen to Limbaugh... (5.00 / 0) (#127)
    by Paul F Villarreal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:16:35 PM EST
    ...and I do, the 'drops' (audio spots he uses on the internet where commercials would be on radio) he has about Daschle are laugh-out-loud funny. Even if you like Daschle, they are hilarious.

    Most of them revolve around the fictitious "Tom Dachle" Radio Show. The show has no advertisers, and can't pay it's announcers, etc. In the bits Tom is now doing radio full-time as his calendar is a somewhat...freer...than it once way.

    :)

    [ Parent ]

    EDIT (none / 0) (#130)
    by Paul F Villarreal on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:17:44 PM EST
    "is somewhat...freer...than it once was."

    [ Parent ]
    True (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:07:37 PM EST
    but the primary should be much easier. One would have thought that he would have some influence with the Democrats.

    [ Parent ]
    Objectively... (4.80 / 5) (#25)
    by OrangeFur on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:14:00 PM EST
    I'd have to think that Ted Kennedy should have had more influence in Massachusetts than Daschle will have in South Dakota.

    Who knows, though. Not me, certainly.

    [ Parent ]

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:16:41 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    John Kerry and Gov. Deval were for obama (none / 0) (#76)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:41:15 PM EST
    too and he couldn't carry MA.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes, but you must understand (none / 0) (#193)
    by TomLincoln on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:52:12 AM EST
    that when the people of Mass. heard the "Just words" campaign stump speech, they recognized it for what it was, and knew who it came from (well, maybe they did not know it was Axelrod, and thought it with Deval Patrick's). In any event, that has to have hurt Obama there, since it is my understanding that Deval Patrick has not turned out to be such a hot ticket. So they perhaps saw "Just words!" from Obama and that was it.

    [ Parent ]
    perhaps.... (none / 0) (#202)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:41:33 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Tom Daschle couldn't deliver (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:21:38 PM EST
    SD for himself!!

    [ Parent ]
    Tom Daschle couldn't even deliver SDak for himself (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by jackyt on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:49:08 PM EST
    in 2004, so it may be possible he doesn't have the clout to do it for Obama this year. Kennedy and Kerry are (presumably) popular in Massachusetts, and still they were unable to deliver.

    [ Parent ]
    don't lose hope (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by ccpup on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:03:49 PM EST
    you assume the SDs are only getting their info from the MSM, but you're forgetting we also have Clinton and others from her campaign working the phone as well as other SDs who support Clinton talking to Uncommitted SDs or shaky Obama SDs looking to switch back (and they're out there, trust me).

    Not everyone relies on CNN, MSNBC or FOX.

    [ Parent ]

    Looking at that list (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Eleanor A on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:16:56 PM EST
    I see several names I know for a fact are Hillary's.

    Folks are holding back for different reasons.  My guess is the "electeds should vote their districts" argument is going to hold more water than Obama expects.

    And as I look at this list?  A lot of people are from states Hillary won.

    [ Parent ]

    Absolutely.. (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by BostonIndependent on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:22:04 PM EST
    I'm going to vote against my rep. if he so much as even breathes the O. name around here.

    I've let him know that already.

    [ Parent ]

    Bah (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Eleanor A on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:38:51 PM EST
    I'm in a GOP district, so I can't vote against anybody.  However, I'm gonna write another bunch of letters TOMORROW to all the undecideds in my particular state, many of whom I know personally.

    [ Parent ]
    HRC 659,512 more votes than Obama From Mar to June (4.50 / 8) (#3)
    by GeekLove08 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:59:13 PM EST
    Of the states that voted in March, April, May, and June:

    Hillary won 8 states with 1,125,125 total votes(659,512 more than Obama):

    1. Ohio (by 228,781 votes) ;
    2. Rhode Island (by 33,635 votes);
    3. Texas (by 95,731 votes, reduced by 5,298 caucus votes won by Obama);
    4. Pennsylvania (by 214,224 votes);
    5. West Virginia (by 147,551 votes);
    6. Indiana (by 14,195 votes);
    7. Kentucky (by 249,346 votes); and
    8. Puerto Rico (by 141,662 votes).

    Obama won 6 states with 465,613 total votes:

    1. North Carolina (by 222,859 votes);
    2. Oregon (by 108,458 votes);
    3. Mississippi (by 100,123 votes);
    4. Wyoming; (by 2,066 caucus votes);
    5. Guam (by 7 caucus votes) and
    6. Vermont (by 32,100 votes).

    The people have spoken. Too bad the DNC can't take the votes that she won away from her like they did delegates in Michigan. For the Democratic "presumptive nominee" this is just pathetic.

    For links see: http://comealongway.blogspot.com/200...ost-votes.html

    Wow, she's leading him about 16 opoints (4.20 / 5) (#5)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:01:38 PM EST
    since February then.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep, he was the Six-Week Wonder (3.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Cream City on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:37:51 PM EST
    from January to mid-February.  Then, the Rev. Wright videos surfaced in mid-March -- and it has been an implosion in Obama's campaign ever since.

    Thanks for these exact numbers; I did a quick scan earlier today but only with rounded numbers.  This exact tally is useful work, and I'm saving it.

    [ Parent ]

    Hillary clearly has and will retain (4.20 / 5) (#1)
    by masslib on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:56:05 PM EST
    the popular vote, folks.  You have to jump a lot of hoops to give it to Obama.I understand the desire to legitimize Obama but that dog won't hunt.

    I said this in the last post, just as (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by zfran on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:29:58 PM EST
    comments were being closed. In MI, the state of MI was punished, the voters in MI were punished, Hillary was punished, and Obama was rewarded!@!}\
    I guess what that says is for the next election if you wanna game votes and not waste your time participating, take your name off the ballot.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, It's Easier (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by creeper on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:21:26 PM EST
    if you can just have all your opponents tossed off the ballot, but withdrawing is a good second option.

    The handwriting is on the wall for superdelegates and it says Hillary is clearly the better choice.  Now we'll find out if they're illiterate.

    In the meantime, the favorite media story today seems to be what Clinton will do if she loses the nomination.  No mention that I could find of the possibility that she might win it.

    Damndest thing I've ever seen...totally biased reporting without so much as a hint of shame.  

    [ Parent ]

    alternate view (1.42 / 7) (#126)
    by TheElectricMessiah on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:15:58 PM EST
    Hillary clearly has and will retain the popular vote only if you reject the rules that the DNC set down way back in this campaign.  Hillary is fighting for MI and FL only because they benefit her.  Barack took himself off the ballot because of the rules.  

    Now  Hillary is concerned about MI and FL?  

    Would she be concerned if hers and obama's positions were reversed?

    Hillary agreed to the DNC rules way back when, but now she's trying to drum up support for a break in those same rules?  Please.  

    If you want to talk about disenfranchisement, let's talk about all the Obama voters who would've came out, but did not because their candidate took himself off the ballot.  And did so by abiding by DNC rules.

    [ Parent ]

    You don't even realize (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:17:39 PM EST
    that the rules committee met this weekend, do you....go do a google search and you'll see.

    [ Parent ]
    yep (1.00 / 3) (#138)
    by TheElectricMessiah on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:26:32 PM EST
    you don't even realize that the rules were stated prior to the MI and FL primaries.  Those states chose to hold their elections outside of party rules, and each candidate agreed to those rules.  Why change now?

    I can understand the disenfranchisement argument in favor of Hillary.  I really can.  But how about all the voters that did not come out because their respective state broke the rules?  Do you really believe that Hillary should get all the delegates in a state that broke the rules?

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry, but you're way off base here (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by stevenb on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:11:06 AM EST
    You are forgetting that while Obama removed his name from the Michigan ballot to appease Iowa and other early voting states, his campaign ACTIVELY encouraged his supporters to vote Uncommitted in protest in MI.  This is common knowledge.  

    There has never been an argument for Clinton to get ALL the delegates, only her voted share.  And, in the case of MI, she had 4 delegates TAKEN AWAY and given to Obama, for no valid or rules-based reason.  That is completely undemocratic, any way you shake it.

    And, as we have seen over the last weekend, the RBC doesn't even abide by their own rules: they are making it up as they go along.

    [ Parent ]

    False statement (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:18:52 PM EST
    Obama chose to take his name off of the ballot at almost the last minute. No rule required him to do so.

    [ Parent ]
    You are way late to this discussion (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by tree on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:21:41 PM EST
    and don't know what you are talking about. The rules didn't require Obama to take himself off the ballot. He chose to do that to ingratiate himself with the Iowa caucus goers, and because he knew he was going to lose the MI primary.  Get your facts straight. Clinton broke no rules.  

    [ Parent ]
    rules (2.50 / 2) (#145)
    by TheElectricMessiah on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:34:12 PM EST
    Nowhere in my post did I state that the rules required Obama to take himself off the ballot.  

    What I did say was that Obama took himself off the ballot because of the rules.

    Can you honestly say that Hillary would have won ALL of the delegates if MI had been run like any other primary state?

    I am not stating the Clinton broke any rules, and please stop with the strawman argument.  I am a Democrat through and through, but Obama has won this election, fair and square, by the rules.  If Hillary had won, more power to her and I would be her biggest supporter.

    [ Parent ]

    you're posting disinformation (none / 0) (#192)
    by Josey on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 02:51:45 AM EST
    >>>>Barack took himself off the ballot because of the rules.  

    There were NO rules stating candidates could not be on state ballots. Obama disenfranchised his MI supporters by taking his name off the ballot to hurt Hillary in Iowa - and orchestrated with other candidates to do the same. FL also "broke the rule" so why didn't Obama take his name off the ballot there?

    >>>Now Hillary is concerned about MI and FL? Would she be concerned if hers and obama's positions were reversed?

    Hillary was concerned about MI & FL before their primaries were held! But Obama has always maintained MI & FL voters "didn't count."

    Salon, Jan. 2008
    http://tinyurl.com/4qogsm

    Obama spokesman Bill Burton offered a reminder that the primaries in Michigan and Florida will "have no bearing on the Democratic nomination contest" because the states won't have any delegates at the national convention.

    Not so fast, says the Clinton campaign. In a memo just circulated in response..."While Sen. Clinton will honor her commitment not to campaign in Florida in violation of the pledge, she also intends to honor her pledge to hear the voices of all Americans," the campaign says. "The people of Michigan and Florida have just as much of a right to have their voices heard as anyone else. It is disappointing to hear a major Democratic presidential candidate tell the voters of any state that their voices aren't important ...

    [ Parent ]

    One thing about RealClear's Number (4.00 / 3) (#151)
    by DWCG on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:43:28 PM EST
    Even the one number that puts Obama on top is flawed because it:

    a) Counts the Washington caucus vs. Washington primary: a 50K vote advantage for Obama

    b) Nebraska caucus vs. Nebraska primary: a 11K vote advantage for Obama

    Using those primary results (obvious better metric of the will of the people) and Clinton is ahead by 15-16K votes, EVEN WHEN YOU GIVE OBAMA ALL THE MICHIGAN UNDECIDEDS (i.e. STEAL VOTES FOR OBAMA)

    That makes no sense...... (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Porter on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:51:56 PM EST
    It was the Caucus that were official, the primaries were non-binding.  You always go with the official vote that counts toward the primary, not the non-binding one.  

    [ Parent ]
    Except for the little fact (3.50 / 2) (#172)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:16:19 AM EST
    that the primaries in both cases were far better attended than the caucus -- by a factor of two, at least, I gather.

    So which represents the will of the people -- the "official" one with far fewer people voting, or the unofficial one with far more people voting?

    I think more people, more legitimacy, more "will of the people" -- it's as simple as that.

    [ Parent ]

    The simple reality too (none / 0) (#175)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 12:19:53 AM EST
    is that the popular votes derived from the caucus states clearly gives more votes to Obama than he would have received had their been primaries instead.

    In all four instances in which a state held both a caucus and primary two facts held:

    1. Far more people (a factor of two at least, I'm pretty sure) registered their vote in the primary than in the caucus

    2. The primary result nonetheless gave Obama fewer popular votes than the caucus -- obviously because caucuses distort who shows up, favoring Obama supporters.


    [ Parent ]
    Sorry, you're wrong about the WA primary (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Don in Seattle on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:50:00 AM EST
    Washington State Democratic Primary Results

    Candidate          Votes    %
    Barack Obama       339,166    51%
    Hillary Clinton      303,151    46%
    John Edwards         11,359    2%
    Dennis Kucinich       3,833    1%
    Bill Richardson        1,948    0%
    Joe Biden               1,813    0%
    Mike Gravel            1,015    0%
    Chris Dodd               587    0%

    When you say "The primary result nonetheless gave Obama fewer popular votes than the caucus" you are misstating the truth.  There weren't 300,000 voters at the WA Democratic caucuses, so obviously Obama got many more popular votes at the primary.

    What RCP says, and what I think you meant to say, is that Obama's popular vote margin of victory was smaller by 50,000 than his margin of victory in the caucuses. That would imply Obama's margin in the caucuses was 86,000 (36,000 + 50,000). Since Obama won the WA caucuses bt about 2-to-1, an 86,000-vote margin estimates our caucus turnout was about 260,000.

    * * * * *

    You say "obviously caucuses distort who shows up, favoring Obama supporters." I could just as well say, beauty-contest primaries distort who shows up, favoring people who aren't paying attention to which contests are meaningful (i.e., have delegates attached to them), and which ones are not.

    Take me. I proudly turned out for our state's caucuses, as I have every presidential year since 1984. I spent the better part of two hours there. It was time well spent, debating Clinton supporters, and participating in a real political give-and-take, at the most grass-roots level.

    A week later, I skipped our primary. It would have meant another trip to that same elementary school, another five minutes. Why bother? It was, I knew, meaningless. Besides, I had the county and district conventions coming up in a few weeks. (I was named an Alternate at the precinct level. Thank you, thank you. Please hold your applause.)

    I put it to you: Which of the two contests better reflected the real sentiments of WA Democrats? The one on Saturday afternoon -- the one that counted for delegates -- the one thst by its nature attracted the more dedicated partisans of both Clinton and Obama -- the one where you could by persuasive arguments sway real votes -- the one where Edwards and Richardson and Kucinich supporters could make their best case too, and then, if their first choice wasn't going to get to the 15% threshold, could switch their vote if they liked, to a viable alternative?

    Or our pointless primary? You make the call.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for basically (1.00 / 1) (#196)
    by frankly0 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 06:51:02 AM EST
    making my point for me.

    Yes, I meant, as you suggest, "margin of victory" in my point 2, when I said "The primary result nonetheless gave Obama fewe