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The Michigan Proposal is Unfair to Hilllary

This is the supposed Michigan compromise.

The state party’s executive committee voted today to ask the national party’s Rules and Bylaws Committee to approve the 69-59 delegate split when it meets May 31. The plan would shrink Clinton’s delegate edge in Michigan from 18 to 10 and allow the state’s 157 delegates and superdelegates to be seated at the convention.

Clinton won the Jan. 15 Michigan primary and was to get 73 pledged delegates under state party rules, while Obama was to get 55. The state also has 29 superdelegates.

The 69-59 split was proposed last week by four prominent Michigan Democrats who have been working for months to find a way to get Michigan’s delegates seated at the Aug. 25-28 convention in Denver: U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger, U.S. Sen. Carl Levin and DNC member Debbie Dingell.

Shorter version: It not only gives Obama all of the uncommitted delegates, a number that includes those who voted for uncommitted for Edwards, it includes those who voted for Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel and gives him some that voted for Hillary. [More...]

A separate plan submitted to the rules committee by Democratic National Committee members Joel Ferguson of Michigan and Jon Ausman of Florida, both superdelegates, apparently will be withdrawn now that the Michigan executive committee has settled on the 69-59 plan. Under their proposal, delegates would have been allocated based on the primary election results, but have had only half a vote each. The superdelegates would have had full voting rights.

On April 29 when it was proposed, I wrote a long post outlining why the planned Michigan compromise was unfair to Hillary. I'm just going to reprint it below as my thoughts haven't changed.

The DNC has previously said both would have to approve any plan. Obama's refusal to agree to the revote led to the Michigan legislature refusing to vote on it before they recessed.

Michigan Primary Results (Jan. 15, 2008)(from MI Secretary of State's office):

Clinton 328,309
Chris Dodd 3,845

Dennis Kucinich 21,715

Mike Gravel 2,361

Uncommitted 238,168

As I wrote here,

On January 15, 2008, 594,398 Democrats went to their polling places and voted in their state's primary. The official Michigan election results are here.

328,309 Democrats in Michigan voted for Hillary Clinton. She won all but two counties, Washtenaw and Emmet. 238,168 voted uncommitted. 21,715 voted for Dennis Kucinich. 3,845 voted for Chris Dodd. 2,361 voted for Mike Gravel.

Hillary got 55% of the vote. The uncommitted, who either were truly uncommitted or for Obama, Edwards or Biden, all three of whom voluntarily withdrew their names from the ballot, got 40%. Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel won 5% of the vote.

Barack Obama proposed he get 50% of the state's delegates. That would be vote-stealing. It would be disenfranchising 5% of Hillary's voters. It would be assuming that every uncommitted voter and every voter for Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel now want their vote to go to Obama.

As to all the Michigan plans proposed so far, none are fair to Hillary. I think all the delegates, not half of them, should be counted. Hillary should get her's now. Those who voted uncommitted should be seated at the convention as uncommitted votes and they choose between Hillary and Obama then, if the race is still going on.

From the letter sent today by the Michigan Democrats:

The Clinton campaign has taken the position that the results of the January 15 primary should be honored and that Senator Clinton should receive 73 pledged delegates in accordance with the vote she received. The Obama campaign has taken the position that the January 15 primary results should be ignored and that the 128 pledged delegates should be seated but evenly divided between the two candidates. Both candidates have a basis for their argument. The January 15 primary result was flawed because Senator Obama’s name was not on the ballot. He took his name off the ballot, interpreting the DNC injunction and the New Hampshire pledge against campaigning in Michigan to require him to take that affirmative step. As a result, we cannot totally agree with the Clinton campaign’s position that the outcome of the primary should be honored and that the pledged delegates should be apportioned 73/55 (Clinton/Obama). At the same time, we also cannot accept the position of the Obama campaign that the primary should be totally ignored and the pledged delegates should be evenly apportioned 64/64 between the two candidates, given the fact that almost 600,000 Democrats voted in the January 15 primary, 55% of whom voted for Senator Clinton and 45% of whom voted for Uncommitted or other candidates.

....As a result, we recommend that the Michigan Democratic Party request the DNC to seat Michigan’s delegates, and that the pledged delegates be apportioned 69 to Senator Clinton and 59 to Senator Obama. That approach splits the difference between the 73/55 position of the Clinton campaign and the 64/64 position of the Obama campaign, based on our belief that both sides have fair arguments about the Michigan primary. While we expect that neither candidate will explicitly embrace this approach, we believe that the DNC should adopt it and both candidates should accept it because it is fair and because it would resolve an impasse that with each passing day hurts our chances of carrying Michigan and winning the Presidency. We also believe that the DNC must exercise the leadership to resolve this impasse and not allow it to fester any longer.

As to the plan to seat all the superdelegates and half the pledged delegates, the letter says:

Mr. Fergusons’s proposed remedy – seating Michigan’s so-called super-delegates with a full vote, and seating Michigan’s pledged delegates with a half vote – is unacceptable to us on two grounds. First, we cannot agree to a remedy that allows for super-delegates who didn’t run for the position to have a full vote, while pledged delegates selected by the voters have only half a vote. Second, we see no justification for seating Michigan’s delegates with anything less than full voting rights. If Michigan is punished for fighting the DNC’s decision to grant New Hampshire a waiver, it will hurt the Party’s chances of carrying Michigan in November.

Michigan is a toss-up state. Democrats cannot afford to lose it. That's exactly what will happen, I predict, if voters in Michigan either don't have their votes count in determining the nominee or if they voted for Hillary and see their vote being given to Obama.

The plan to seat 1/2 the delegates looks DOA. Obama's response to today's proposal:

Obama spokesman Bill Burton said of the decision, “It is clear results in January won’t be used to allocate delegates, and we agree with that decision. We have been talking with Michigan leaders about this proposal and will continue to do so.”

Meanwhile, John McCain is busy courting voters in Michigan:

He attended a fundraiser in the state Tuesday night with former rival Mitt Romney before holding a town hall meeting this morning at Oakland University in the Detroit suburb of Rochester.

“Clinton and Obama have boycotted Michigan for a long time while John McCain has been getting to know us,” state Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said in his blog.

Barack Obama removed himself from the Michigan ballot and may get the delegates from those who voted for Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel, those who voted uncommitted, which includes those who voted for Edwards or truly were uncommitted and and 5 of HIllary's delegates.

This is fair? This is new politics? This is vote-stealing.

More here and here.

Update: 11:00 pm Comments now closed.

< The Electoral Map vs. the Primary Map | Thursday Night Open Thread >
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  • Display: Sort:
    The logical solution is to give Obama (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:57:40 PM EST
    no delegates whatsoever. Alice Palmer tells me you won't even need signature challenges to take him off the ballot. Give him some of his own medicine.

    The Nominee Selected (5.00 / 1) (#266)
    by Jon on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:43:30 PM EST
    Doesn't this make Sen. Obama the nominee who was "selected" and not "elected?"  

    What happened to the party that wanted all the votes counted?

    [ Parent ]

    That Would Be Great! And Why Am I Not (none / 0) (#130)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:00 PM EST
    surprised they would offer something totally unfair to Hillary and continue to brown-nose obama?  Are they that desperate to have an easily manipulated sock puppet in the WH to do their bidding.  Although he probably won't win in the GE and all their nefarious workings will be for naught.

    [ Parent ]
    umm.. (none / 0) (#218)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:27:42 PM EST
    the DNC Rules Panel voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.

    Don't blame Obama.  

    [ Parent ]

    We Have To Go Through This (5.00 / 2) (#233)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:01:39 PM EST
    Again.

    Your statement is ridiculous.

    The DNC approved a Michigan plan to re-vote the primary.

    Obama refused to support that plan.

    That should be simple enough to understand.

    Obama refused a plan to include the people of Michigan and proposed to take what he did not earn. A consistant pattern of behavior with him.

    If Obama people want Clinton people to support their candidate then people like AgreeToDisagree are doing damage to that cause by making ridiculous comments on an issue that's an open and shut case.

    [ Parent ]

    True, Obama cannot be ... (5.00 / 1) (#251)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:44:19 PM EST
    blamed for the original DNC decision, BUTTTT HE IS TO BE BLAMED FOR NOT CONTRIBUTING TO A FAIR SOLUTION: GIVE THE PROPORTIONAL VOTES THAT HILLARY WON!
    Isn't his platform ALL ABOUT FAIRNESS?

    [ Parent ]
    the logical solution (5.00 / 13) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:03 PM EST
    is to give Hillary her delegates and let the rest go to the convention in Denver as uncommitted.

    I agree completely. (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:48 PM EST
    Don't give Obama anything he didn't earn.

    [ Parent ]
    But Mark, You Don't Understand, obama (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:51 PM EST
    gets many things he doesn't deserve.

    [ Parent ]
    How is that? (1.00 / 2) (#220)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:28 PM EST
    Why punish Obama when it was the DNC Rules Panel that voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.  Clinton supporters were involved.

    Now, the game is over, and HRC has lost, so you cry about the rules.  

    [ Parent ]

    Didn't Michigan already assign delegates? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:04:02 PM EST
    I thought that Obama got most, but unions won some.  That makes sense, Obama got most and the rest go basically unaffiliated.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course. But this has never been about logic. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:35 PM EST
    It has always been about how can we get Obama the nomination.  He deserves zero pledged delegates, Hillary deserves 73 pledged delegates and the 55 uncommitted.

    [ Parent ]
    Yup. (none / 0) (#43)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:39 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Exactamente (5.00 / 9) (#77)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:28:27 PM EST
    I didn't realize this afternoon that the latest proposal stole delegates from Clinton.  I thought it just awarded Obama all the uncommitteds -- unfair, but under the circumstances tolerable.

    Under what delusional set of circumstances does the Obama campaign justify stealing some of Hillary's delegates?  Because if the Precious had been on the ballot, surely fewer people would hav voted for her?  

    So now we are rewarding Obama for not actually being on the ballot?

    Screw'em. Let Obama reap the whirlwind. In the last 24 hours, Obama and his followers have turned me from "come together" Democrat to a "screw'em" Democrat.

    [ Parent ]

    How can you steal delegates when (none / 0) (#137)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:00 PM EST
    they are imaginary anyway?

    Please understand: currently Clinton has ZERO delegates from Michigan. Michigan currently has ZERO delegates to be seated at the convention. These are imaginary delegates. If I have a pretend DeLorean and you say you've stolen it, are you guilty of grand theft auto?

    You cannot steal something from somebody if they don't have it.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]

    If all of the delegates (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:00:25 PM EST
    are imaginary, then how can anyone argue that Obama won?

    [ Parent ]
    The Michigan delegates are (none / 0) (#192)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:04:28 PM EST
    imaginary. The DNC stripped all of Michigan's delegates last summer. As a result the January vote had zero effect in apportioning Michigan delegates for the convention in Denver. That is what makes Michigan's (and Florida's) delegates imaginary.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]
    Then why do Obama's supporters (5.00 / 2) (#244)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    keep talking about how Hillary is trying to "steal the nomination" from him.

    He doesn't have it yet. So how can she steal it?

    [ Parent ]

    2.8 million voters are imaginary? (5.00 / 1) (#253)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:51:50 PM EST
    This is the INCLUSION your candidate proposes? Those "imaginary" voters, will be very REAL when November comes around and Florida and Michigan go RED!

    [ Parent ]
    The problem with this: (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Kathy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:43 PM EST
    give Hillary her delegates and let the rest go to the convention in Denver as uncommitted.

    (imminently logical as it is) is the statement made earlier this week by an unnamed SD who plainly said that Clinton needs two things for the SDs to migrate her way: the popular vote argument and to be within 100 pledged delegates of Obama.

    With FL and MI seated, basically in any fair way, she closes that 100 gap.  That's the magic number here.  That's why she's pushing into WVA, KY and PR, because she knows if she hits that number, she'll have this wrapped up.

    And that's why, despite his cries of Mission Accomplished, Obama is still campaigning hard.  If he's already won, why doesn't he take a two week vacation?

    [ Parent ]

    So your position is that Michigan should pay (1.00 / 4) (#88)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:33 PM EST
    no price whatsoever for defying the DNC's schedule? You think that any state in the future should be free to ignore the DNC's primary schedule, allowing the process to fall into complete chaos? When you practice law, do you believe that you get to pick and choose from the court rules you follow?

    Your position is ridiculous, Jeralyn. The fairest position of all is that no delegates whatsoever be counted from Michigan, because the Michigan defied the DNC's schedule and that was the penalty the DNC established.

    But since that seems to bother Michigan voters so much, everybody is looking for a compromise that will assuage the sentiments of Michigan voters and not tip the scales unfairly in either direction.

    Your proposed solution is the least fair of any.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]

    MI defied the DNC rules! Off with their heads! (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:28 PM EST
    good god, man, get a control of yourself -- they didn't defy the constitution, they defied the DNC rules which called for a 50% reduction in delegates for "defying the rules" and the DNC then decided apropos of nothing to "overrule" those rules to give them NO delegates. So, if the DNC can "overrule" the rules on a whim, those rules aren't exactly set in stone.

    [ Parent ]
    Brilliant! (none / 0) (#123)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:42:48 PM EST
    Except there's no DNC rule that limits the penalty imposed to a 50% reduction in delegates. So unfortunately your argument fails.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]
    Teh DNC blew it (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:47:52 PM EST
    withthe overall architecture of the primary season and the PR aspect of the rules.

    The result that is being manufactured does not look very democratic. It does not look very inspiring and does not advertise Dems as good reformers and rule makers.  It makes us look foolish and pedantic.

    [ Parent ]

    oh yes there is (none / 0) (#131)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:07 PM EST
    and if I knew how to do links on here, I would link you to it. That is exactly what the "ROOLZ" say. I know it is you first day here, but try do a little research instead of just making things up.

    [ Parent ]
    sorry, it isn't your first day here (none / 0) (#139)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:14 PM EST
    I wish I could edit -- but the rest of my response to you is true -- a 50% loss of delegates is exactly what the rules called for, and the DNC decided to "overrule" those rules, in the words of Donna Brazile "to send a message to FL & MI." I even saw the tape of the meeting.

    [ Parent ]
    you know digdugboy is just here to rile people (4.00 / 1) (#146)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    up.  you would do well to ignore.

    [ Parent ]
    Not true (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:25 PM EST
    I've stated more times than I should have to that I'd be perfectly happy with either candidate as the democratic nominee.

    Each candidate knew Michigan was not going to count at the outset. After both acknowledged this, Obama took his name off the ballot.

    Jeralyn's proposed solution requires that no significance whatsoever attach to these two critical facts. The only reason anybody could possibly ignore these facts is if his or her partisanship for Clinton was so overwhelming as to disable any sense of reason and fairness. That's what I object to.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]

    The story on Obama's removal of his name (5.00 / 3) (#243)
    by andrys on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:29:43 PM EST
    The Iowa Independent told of the political moves by young "New Politics" Obama to remove his name when he was 20 points down in the polls and the rules said NOTHING about removing one's name.  "Participating in the campaign" does not include leaving one's name on for the voting day which the DNC planned would not count but the rules are subject to modification within those rules.  But read the Iowa Independent story for the description of Obama's maneuvering at that time.

     Don't forget that he TOLD the Michigan people to vote for UNCOMMITTED.  Kucinich, Dodd, and Gravel's names were of course also still on, and so there were 4 names there PLUS "uncommitted choice" which Obama recommended.  His staff and surrogates reminded Michiganer's of this choice.

      So, unlike Jeralyn in this case, I do favor giving Obama the Uncommitted number to actually "compromise"  EVEN if Edwards would have received about 15-20% of those.  Hillary would keep hers, as she didn't, unlike Obama, tell the Michiganers to do or not do anything nor did she in any way campaign.

      The votes, if he wants to get elected in November, HAVE TO COUNT toward the nominee or it is an INVALID nominee by the eyes of many voters, including me.  

      If the ONLY way he can get the nomination is to IGNORE the actual votes of voters, then his campaign for the presidency is doomed.  It is dishonest and fearful of voters as usual (always trying to either remove opponents or get them to withdraw via pressure).

      For the best informal writeup I've seen of this situation, as it stands now especially (if Obama wants to be at all competitive in Michigan and Florida, which will be crucial), see Tom of Paine's article on this subject, from yesterday.

    [ Parent ]

    digdugboy (none / 0) (#254)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:53:00 PM EST
    You've accepted the G rated version of Obama's withdrawal from the Michigan ballot.

    His withdrawal was far more cynical. The withdrawal was done to taint a sure Clinton victory.

    Your "critical facts" are without merit.

    [ Parent ]

    And the DNC was perfectly entitled, within its (none / 0) (#142)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:22 PM EST
    rules, to impose greater punishment.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]
    Bothers me. (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:47 PM EST
    I'm a Michigan voter.

    If the delegates are not seated, and not seated and assigned prior to the convention as is, I WILL not vote Obama.

    I would accept a 50% reduction per the calendar rules.  That's where I disagree with Jeralyn.  50% is what it should have been out of the gate and I'm fine with that.

    DNC tried to make 100% stick.  It backfired, and now they want to backpedal.  First 50/50, and now committed Obama delegates AT ALL?

    Delegation is seated as the voters voted and as allocated.  If it's docked a percentage, fine by me.  Nothing greater than a 50% reduction.


    [ Parent ]

    I think the DNC (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    are guilty of overdoing it with Michigan.

    Complete stripping was cruel and unusual.

    btw iit's not like the rules in other states are either

    Conducive to Democratic results: See Nevada

    or Proportionally weighted:

    See Alaska's 4,000 caucus goers  cancel out much larger states that had 200,000 strong majorities.

    The entire architecture of the Primary system failed catastophically.

    The GOP would be well advised to block any Democratic Party electoral reforms that are proposed after watching this fiasco.

    [ Parent ]

    I won't even accept that now. (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:37 PM EST
    As pointed out by Steve, MI has already been punished in the most historic election by not being able to have the candidates campaign, no advertising and particularly, no money.  I what to reiterate Steve's excellent points - MI and FL have already been punished and as he also pointed out, I also highly doubt that there will be any states that will try to "break the rules" and risk that type of retaliation.

    [ Parent ]
    Agreed IN PART. (none / 0) (#194)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    I think Michigan should have been docked 50% out of the gate.  If so, this wouldn't have been a question, and would have been a better political angle for both the DNC and Obama, not that I would want that.  But...

    "Michigan ALWAYS counted.  Just per the rules it was docked 50%.  The superdelegates still count, as does every citizen's vote.  Just not pledged delegates.  But it CAN be revewed at the convention."

    Is much better than...

    "Michigan does not count.  The popular vote is irrelevant because the ballot was not honest.  Soviet election!  Forget Michigan superdelegates, and no re-vote!  Onward to South Dakota!"

    Now I'm irate.  But I would have accepted 50% then.  Now both the DNC and Obama have a lot to make up for.  They should just buy some homes in the state and just set up permanent shop at this point.  It might help with the housing statistics.

    And don't forget to drink lots of Vernors, drive a GM car, and eat many pasties and Grand Traverse cherries!

    [ Parent ]

    Okay, then don't vote Obama (none / 0) (#150)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:26 PM EST
    nobody's going to beg you to change your mind. So long as you're happy with McCain as your president, that's what really matters, I guess.
    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]
    I'm Catholic, sweetie. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:54:42 PM EST
    I have a strong shield against that tired ol' heavy hand of guilt.

    [ Parent ]
    Glad to hear it, sugarbuns. (none / 0) (#175)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:30 PM EST

    [tagline censored]
    [ Parent ]
    Why haven't the other prominent (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:47 PM EST
    elected MI Dems. signed the letter?  Where are the Gov. and Conyers, for instance?

    [ Parent ]
    Granholm. (none / 0) (#188)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:27 PM EST
    1. She's an out and proud Clinton advocate.  It would be poor PR.  She was talking to the press pumping Hillary as recently as pre-Ohio (whereas AZ Gov. Napolitano was attacking for Obama).  Obama supporters would SCREAAAAM if Granholm signed anything.

    2. She's term limited, and won her re-election without any help from Rahm, Dean, or the other DNC members who were more than happy to pander to the Mountain West without investing more than a lick to the State in '06.

    So she really doesn't owe much to the DNC, and more important she'd be seen as a "Clinton Surrogate."  She worked for a re-vote, but that was gunned down by you-know-who.

    Granholm will keep low in this, aside from a very politically ambiguous "Michigan should count," like she advocated pre-Ohio.

    [ Parent ]

    Here's the problem. (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM EST
    McCain does quite well in Michigan. If he were to pick Romney as VP--he'd prolly win Michigan.

    A dispute over a bylaw (in a fatally flawed architecture of stupid rules) should be followed if it gives the GOp an inch of room in November.

    Stripping Michigan completely was draconian stupidity.  

     

    [ Parent ]

    Romney probably gains MI (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by RalphB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:49 PM EST
    for McCain.  As an added little bonus, he would almost guarantee McCain Colorado.  He also gives him some cover on the economy.  Romney would be a good VP pick for Sen McCain.

    I'm starting to be concerned about the GOP ticket because I fully expect McCain to be elected in November, if he runs against Obama.


    [ Parent ]

    I bet they are crunching (none / 0) (#181)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:21 PM EST
    The Mormon factor in Tempe HQ.

    All that tithe cash, all those foot soldiers, all the residents, right smack in the middle of Obama's Western Strategy (added Bonus Michigan and extra padding numbers in New England.)  It must be tempting McCain.  I don't know if Romney is respected in Mass but he did win there in some capacity before.

    The only problem would be a Catholic counter attack at the pulpit.

    [ Parent ]

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#209)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:21 PM EST
    Michigan went 3 -- 3! -- points to Kerry in '04.  This was coming off of George W. Bush.  

    Michigan is hemhorraging young professionals -- aka Obama's supposed "expansion."

    Labor and the economy dominate Michigan.

    And never forget how much the Detroit suburbs -- and much of the State -- despise "Black Detroit."

    The MI GOP will have a field day exploiting this.  Remember that this is the State that in the same election voted in a Democratic Governor who was under a lot of reelection heat by 14 points, but then also voted FOR an Affirmative Action ban by 16 even though she campaigned against it.

    Add ammunition on this whole "not counting" bull, and boy o boy is it tragic.

    [ Parent ]

    Uh (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:09 PM EST
    Michigan got nothing for defying the DNC's schedule.  They got no media attention for their primary, they got no dollars for the economy from a campaign in their state, they got no benefit whatsoever.

    If the most important thing to Michigan were making sure they get a delegation at the convention, they could have ensured themselves of that just by keeping a normal date.  Giving them a delegation hardly means "they got away with it."  They will have gained absolutely nothing by it.

    But yeah, I guess all the states in 2012 will realize "gee, if we don't mind having no media attention, no candidate visits, and no dollars for the economy, we can get away with holding our primary whenever we like!"

    [ Parent ]

    dollars for the economy can't be that great (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:40 PM EST
    I can see a small state like NH or IA wanting 12 months of campaign spending from 20 campaigns. That adds up. But what is the effect on later states, especially big states?

    I think the bigger danger is that next time every Republican controlled state like FL will jump the rules to cause chaos amongst the Dems. Worked great this year. They get the weaker candidate to run against.

    [ Parent ]

    It makes a huge difference (none / 0) (#185)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:03 PM EST
    Sen. Levin hasn't been fighting for an early primary all these years because he likes seeing his name in the paper.

    It means a tremendous amount in terms of both dollars and clout within the party.  MI and FL got none of that.

    [ Parent ]

    Are you kidding? (none / 0) (#202)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:13:22 PM EST
    1. Michigan has a challenged economy.  The Governor here has been hitting on this for YEARS.  It's ripe for Economic Policy Talk.

    2. Michigan is expanding in life sciences, advanced manufacturing, alternative energies, and national security -- all GREAT Democratic talking points thanks to a Democratic State Executive.

    3. Labor Unions.  Vociferously democratic.

    4. Hunting, foresting, tourism.  Many states are turning to tourism for dollars.

    5. State pride.

    6. Small towns ravaged by loss of manufacturing.  They could do well with some tourism dollars and state pride thanks to a Presidential Primary.

    7. Detroit.  America's "Black City," and ravaged by poverty, illiteracy, and crime.  It's also America's only urban center to go UNDER 1,000,000 in population.  No appeal there whatsoever?

    Michigan is a big state, but it's also a DEBTOR state.  It's a challenged state.  And it's heavily Republican outside of labor and the cities of Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint, and Kalamazoo.

    Need I go on?  

    [ Parent ]

    I get all that (none / 0) (#228)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    And you probably have one of the best public universities in the country. As a Wisconsin alum I say that grudgingly. But can you give me a number for the economic stimulus of a primary campaign once every 4 years?  I bet the NCAA regional basketball tournament in Detroit this year did far more. Even one Detroit Tigers game probably does more. If they make the playoffs again you will probably get a couple decades of political primary spending equivalents.

    I can see the benefit of a national spotlight for a week discussing MI and getting the candidates to promise to help but I don't get the campaign dollars having lasting effect.

    [ Parent ]

    I appreciate (none / 0) (#248)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:36:59 PM EST
    the compliment to my alma mater, Michigan State.

    In exchange, I will mention that the Wisconsin Ultimate Frisbee team threw us a hell of a party in Madison once upon a time.

    [ Parent ]

    Short term v. Long term. (none / 0) (#265)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:29:26 PM EST
    Fans for a day, re: bi-partisan national sporting event coverage?

    Or fans for a while, re: Democratic Presidential coverage?

    Difference.

    [ Parent ]

    What was turnout like in MI (none / 0) (#176)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:29 PM EST
    for the primary?  (You are the Steve from Mich, right?)  I mean in every other primary state (and even caucus states) turnout was off the charts.  It broke records. What about new voter registration.  Again,every other state had oodles of new voters - Dem voters.

    I think that too many people did not participate because they thought their vote wouldn't count. Just counting the votes that were cast still disenfranchises voters because the entire process was tainted.

    Yes, I want to seat MI and FL.  But the compromise has to seem fair - and outside of the pro-Hillary sites nobody thinks counting an election where one candidates name wasn't on the ballot is fair.  

    [ Parent ]

    It was (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:08:34 PM EST
    strong turnout, as I recall, but not nearly to the level that we've seen in other states.

    Here's the thing.  Obama figured there was no way he would win MI.  And so part of the strategic reason behind taking his name off the ballot was to decrease the chances that somehow, that election would end up counting.

    To some extent, that worked, because yes it would be unfair to give him 0 votes at this point.  But once you realize the strategic thinking that went into the decision, you come to understand that there's not a whole lot of justice in any result.

    Reality is that, talking points notwithstanding, everyone knew there was a chance those elections would end up counting at some point.  In Florida, the major newspapers all urged Democrats to get out and vote, citing a substantial likelihood that the results would end up getting counted in some fashion.  Obama took steps to make sure that would be less likely in MI, and what he did was probably a smart political move.  But this notion of an innocent, trusting Obama, blithely removing his name from the ballot because all the grownups had promised him the election wouldn't count, is really quite silly and I get tired of the people who push it.

    As a MI native, it really burns me up to think that the state might somehow end up in McCain's column.  It would kill me.  I will accept any resolution of this situation whatsoever, if it means we won't have to watch McCain win Michigan.

    [ Parent ]

    Yawn. (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:40 PM EST
    You guys are so boring.

    Do you ever, ever tell the truth about anything?

    You could not care LESS about the rules. In fact, you don't even know what they are. Newsflash, the remedy in the RULES was the 50% solution. The Republicans did it and they're doing fine.

    All you want is for Obama to beat HRC. We know it and you know it.

    Please stop the intellectual dishonesty. It's pathetic.

    [ Parent ]

    digdugboy your comments (none / 0) (#252)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:44:51 PM EST
    are ridiculous.

    Two things you've chosen to ignore:

    The penalty under the RULES was for a 50% loss of delegates.

    Before handing down a ruling the DNC is supposed to hold a hearing according to the RULES.

    The DNC chose instead to break the RULES.

    You wouldn't know fair if it bit you in the fanny.

    [ Parent ]

    digdugboy (none / 0) (#255)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:02:20 PM EST
    You are mindlessly suggesting that the voters in the 8th largest state in the union be ignored.

    A re-vote was approved by the DNC and Obama refused.

    That being the case, the only fair solution is that the January 15 vote be used as is.

    Including the 8th largest state in the process and doing it according to the only indication of the decision of Michigan voters is the only fair and equitable course.

    You have no moral or ethical leg to stand on and your GE calculus is foolish.

    [ Parent ]

    I'm surprised they decided (none / 0) (#23)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:13 PM EST
    to remove some of what she earned.

    I think the uncommitted may as well be his.

    But a 10 del spread is not really reflective of the vote that occurred.

    Are the extra 8 Obama dels designed to be a final FU?

    [ Parent ]

    And that's (none / 0) (#238)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM EST
    the only legitimate solution.  

    Since Obama refused a re-vote his position is that either the state's voters be ignored altogether, deligitimizing a possible nomination or he should be forced to accept the only legitimate indication of the decision of Michigan's voters and that's the LEGAL election held on January 15.

    The election was called by statute under Michigan law and administered as a public election by the state of Michigan.

    [ Parent ]

    That's (none / 0) (#245)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    the only legitimate solution.  

    Since Obama refused a re-vote his position is that either the state's voters be ignored altogether, deligitimizing a possible nomination or he should be forced to accept the only legitimate indication of the decision of Michigan's voters and that's the LEGAL election held on January 15.

    The election was called by statute under Michigan law and administered as a public election by the state of Michigan.

    [ Parent ]

    It's an atrocity (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by stillife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:54 PM EST
    I get the same helpless feeling that I did watching Gore being shut down by SCOTUS in 2000.  

    Jeez, I feel like a lot of 3rd world emerging nations are more democratic than we are.

    Would Jimmy Carter approve that settlement? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:01:27 PM EST
    Sorry, of course he would.  It seem that he is not concerned about voting rights in the US.  Maybe, if Michigan joined Canada  and Florida joined Cuba, then Clinton would care.

    My guess is that is a typo (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:13 PM EST
    It happens.

    [ Parent ]
    Huh? "Then Clinton would care"? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Cream City on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:00 PM EST
    Pls. explain.

    [ Parent ]
    Sorry typo--'then Carter would care" (none / 0) (#96)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:34:12 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Stop, (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:02:00 PM EST
    Thief!

    So...if my friend voted Gravel (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:02:28 PM EST
    her vote goes to Obama?

    Did Gravel endorse Obama? Did he say that it was okay to move his vote into another column?
    "Wit has truth in it; wisecracking is simply calisthenics with words." Dorothy Parker

    I will just note this (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:43 PM EST
       The 69-59 split was proposed last week by four prominent Michigan Democrats who have been working for months to find a way to get Michigan's delegates seated at the Aug. 25-28 convention in Denver: U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger, U.S. Sen. Carl Levin and DNC member Debbie Dingell.

    All of these Democrats are undeclared, but like Donna Brazile, not necessarily undecided.

    Rep. Kilpatrick, like her son, is said to support Hillary.  If it's true, they kinda keep it quiet, for reasons that should be obvious.

    Gettelfinger and the UAW are nominally neutral, although I can tell you the autoworkers are not big Obama fans in general.  You may have noticed that he gives them the Sista Souljah treatment in every stump speech, when he boasts about having the guts to go to Detroit and lecture them on fuel economy standards.

    Carl Levin is undeclared, but his brother Sander is a Clinton superdelegate.  They are very close.

    Debbie Dingell, I have no firsthand knowledge, but I'll be shocked if she's not a Hillary supporter.  Her husband is a Clinton superdelegate, in any event.

    I am not saying these people are making the proposal in order to benefit Hillary, but it seems really unlikely that they're looking to screw her.  Just saying.

    Then hopefully this is the start... (none / 0) (#89)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:33 PM EST
    of the negotiation and if Hillary takes a hard line they can compromise on the equitable solution.

    [ Parent ]
    well, with friends like these n/t (none / 0) (#104)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:21 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    OK (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by sas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:57 PM EST
    on a point of honor - why would he take delegates he did not earn?

    I realize - duh - to get the nomination - but he has no integrity.

    UGH!

    Another W.

    This, from the Michigan Dems, (5.00 / 6) (#33)
    by Anne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:21 PM EST
    is utter BS:
    The Obama campaign has taken the position that the January 15 primary results should be ignored and that the 128 pledged delegates should be seated but evenly divided between the two candidates. Both candidates have a basis for their argument. The January 15 primary result was flawed because Senator Obama's name was not on the ballot. He took his name off the ballot, interpreting the DNC injunction and the New Hampshire pledge against campaigning in Michigan to require him to take that affirmative step. As a result, we cannot totally agree with the Clinton campaign's position that the outcome of the primary should be honored and that the pledged delegates should be apportioned 73/55 (Clinton/Obama).

    Are we the only ones who can smell it?  

    I posted this on the earlier Michigan thread, and I haven't changed my mind about it:

    This "compromise" proposes to reduce Hillary's delegates by 4, award all of the Uncommitted delegates to someone who was not even on the ballot, and increase that total by 4.

    I would reject it, too, on the basis of our not having a practice of giving votes and delegates to candidates who did not stand for election by being on the ballot.  And I would further reject it on the basis that we are not in the practice of unilaterally deciding to take delegates away from a candidate for no reason that has any legitimacy.

    Finally, manipulating the delegate count as proposed is in defiance of the actual vote.  If I lived in Michigan and had voted, I would wonder whether my vote for Hillary had effectively been canceled and given to a candidate for whom I did not vote.

    Obama rejected every single proposal that would force him to stand for election in Michigan; Hillary rejecting this proposal is not "bad," unless you think she should approve - that we all should approve - of giving in to the willful tantrums of a candidate who outmaneuvered himself and now wants to subvert the political process to his own benefit.

    Heck, using Obama's rationale, a general election where McCain was on the ballot against Uncommitted would result in a landslide victory for Obama, right?

    I still cannot believe that the party that fought tooth and nail on the side of fair and honest presidential elections, which held hearings on the integrity of the vote, is not just allowing votes to be taken from one candidate and given to another, it is promoting it as a solution to a problem that it created.

    It just defies all reason.

    No. (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:32 PM EST
    Are we the only ones who can smell it?  

    This was a effort to affect the nomination from the get-go.

    [ Parent ]

    It doesn't defy reason (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:30:14 PM EST
    It just defines morality.

    [ Parent ]
    Of course it is fair! (5.00 / 6) (#39)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:05 PM EST
    Obama gets credit for people who didn't vote for him and Hillary doesn't get credit for people who voted for her. It's the new definition of "fair" -- (other new definitions in Obamaworld: UP is DOWN, BLACK is WHITE and GOOD is BAD).

    I like the idea of not seating SD's (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:19 PM EST
    for MI & FL as I think BTD brought up some time ago. Or maybe he was just referencing that idea. Anyway, that would be a nice slap on the wrist to some of the folks responsible for the mess. Of course I'd do the same to certain members of the DNC. I'm looking at you Brazile. :-)

    How exactly (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:19:04 PM EST
    is 73 delegates to ZERO delegates fair, Jeralyn.

    And please don't go back to the canard about Obama be responsible for his actions.  Hillary is just as responsible for allowing those states to be stripped of their rights.

    And even if Obama is responsible for his actions how does that jibe with your claims that you are concerned about the will of the voters?  So it's ok to deny the voices of Obama supporters in Michigan entirely?  How is that fair to those voters?

    Arguments about fairness require fairness on both sides.  Your one sided arguments of fairness ring hollow and that is why they have never gotten any traction.

    what part of "no votes" (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:42 PM EST
    don't you understand? No one voted for Obama in MI. And that was a direct result of his choosing to take his name off the ballot, even though there was no requirement for him to do so.  

    [ Parent ]
    One other thing Jeralyn (none / 0) (#56)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:20:19 PM EST
    Would you be ok with giving Hillary Michigan and Florida as is if it meant that the superdelegates no longer had a vote?

    [ Parent ]
    Give Hillary ALL of the FL and MI delegates (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:25:03 PM EST
    (penalizing Obama in FL because he campaigned in FL), and remove the SD's. That's reasonable.

    [ Parent ]
    Great (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:12 PM EST
    Let's get it done!

    Hillary would get about 115 delegate swing.  That would be huge!

    [ Parent ]

    Pathetic ... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by dwmorris on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:12 PM EST
    The unwillingness of the BO campaign to graciously seat all of Clinton's delegates when Obama has a virtual lock on the nomination is absolutely pathetic.  What's Obama afraid off?

    Um (none / 0) (#70)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:26:13 PM EST
    The MI delegates are choosing how to partition the delegates, not the Obama camp.

    Instead of being vague about it, why doesn't the Clinton campaign come out publicly and say we want 55% of the delegates, and Obama can take the 40% (that's what the 73/55 split comes out to)?

    She's just wasting time trying to make something bigger than it is.

    The delegates will be seated.  They were always going to be seated.

    [ Parent ]

    Red herring (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by dwmorris on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:18 PM EST
    We need a new acronym in addition to WORM ... INOF (it's never Obama's fault).  The candidates have the power to dictate terms.  Clinton wants her delegates seated and I'm fairly certain they've signalled that they are willing to allow Obama to have all the undeclared delegates as a quid pro quo (even though some are rightfully Edwards').  It's in Obama's court now and the response has been, dare I say, both divisive and unpresidential.

    [ Parent ]
    Well said. (1.00 / 3) (#94)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:33:40 PM EST
    The whole issue is just sour grapes.

    [ Parent ]
    Have Edwards, Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:42 PM EST
    been asked how they feel about Obama taking their votes in Michigan?

    I am suggesting following the rules, and (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:30:25 PM EST
    NOT letting Obama get away with technically adhering to the rules about advertising, when he actually plastered FL with ads for a month before the election. I'm sure Donna Brazile would agree with me that harsh measures are appropriate in order to teach lessons.

    Where in the rules (none / 0) (#92)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:33:27 PM EST
    Does it say that a nominee shall be stripped of their delegates if they broke their pledge?

    Just make up the rules to achieve whatever goal you want, I guess.

    [ Parent ]

    Where does it say in the rules that no (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:27 PM EST
    delegates at all should be seated?
    It does not.
    Obama does not want to count the votes from FL and MI.
    A fair compromise is to count none of HIS votes, since he does not want them.

    [ Parent ]
    Actually it says just that (none / 0) (#128)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:53 PM EST
    The delegates from Michigan and Florida were not certified. As such they are not entitled to be seated.  It's explicitly in the rules.

    [ Parent ]
    mea cupla (none / 0) (#147)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    Misremembered what they said.

    [ Parent ]
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:53 PM EST
    You've never read the delegate rules, have you?  You probably shouldn't go around boldly proclaiming what's not in there unless you have, because - hint hint - you might end up looking quite silly.

    [ Parent ]
    The agreement is unfair to the voters of Michigan. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:31:32 PM EST
    Of course, it is unfair to Clinton, but I have come to expect that.  How does this compromise reflect the will of the voters of Michigan?

    What you are supporting (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:39 PM EST
    has nothing to do with democracy. It's called vote-stealing.

    If you don't want to follow the actual voting in MI, there is a simple solution.  Just have Obama agree that the nomination is not won until he or Clinton accumulated 2209 delegates.

    No fighting over whether to seat FLA or MI. No fighting about allocation. Just agree that Obama doesn't get the benefit of a lower magic number by excluding MI and FLA.

    Simple. Elegant. And totally achievable, if Obama is as inevitable as you think.

    Yes, that is my preferred solution as well. (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:29 PM EST
    The first principle should be that 2209 is the magic number. The most likely result is that the nomination will take a second ballot. I'm fine with that.

    [ Parent ]
    What? (none / 0) (#103)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:08 PM EST
    How am I vote stealing?  I just offered a solution in which the votes count AS-IS!  Please explain how that is vote stealing?  Every voter's voice is heard.  Are you suggesting that voiding the undemocratic superdelegates votes is somehow vote stealing?  Not allowing the party elite to choose the nominee is now vote stealing?

    If you prefer that we soldier on until one of the candidates achieves 2209, so be it.  Don't be disappointed, though, when the superdelegates vote en masse for the presumptive nominee and Obama reaches 2209.  I'm sure there will be a new set of goal posts at that time though.

    [ Parent ]

    Shifting votes away from Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:42 PM EST
    to Obama is vote-stealing.

    If you gave Obama delegates on the assumption that he would have gotten every uncommitted vote, you'd be stealing an unknown number of votes from John Edwards, but at this point he probably wouldn't complain.

    Awarding more that 55% of the delegates to Obama is vote-stealing.

    [ Parent ]

    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    I just said that she can have Michigan and Florida AS-IS.  She gets 73 delegates in Michigan.  He gets zero.  She gets 114 delegates in Florida, he gets 67(I think those are the vote results).  

    How is that vote-stealing?  It's a gift.  And all Hillary has to agree to is voiding the superdelegates right to subvert the will of the people.

    [ Parent ]

    the superdelegates (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:39 PM EST
    have a right to vote too.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#157)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:52 PM EST
    What right is that?  Where do they derive this right from?  

    You guys are seriously arguing that that the party elites have the right to be the equivalent of thousands of regular voters?

    [ Parent ]

    then SD's (none / 0) (#219)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:28:04 PM EST