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The Michigan Proposal is Unfair to Hilllary

This is the supposed Michigan compromise.

The state party’s executive committee voted today to ask the national party’s Rules and Bylaws Committee to approve the 69-59 delegate split when it meets May 31. The plan would shrink Clinton’s delegate edge in Michigan from 18 to 10 and allow the state’s 157 delegates and superdelegates to be seated at the convention.

Clinton won the Jan. 15 Michigan primary and was to get 73 pledged delegates under state party rules, while Obama was to get 55. The state also has 29 superdelegates.

The 69-59 split was proposed last week by four prominent Michigan Democrats who have been working for months to find a way to get Michigan’s delegates seated at the Aug. 25-28 convention in Denver: U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger, U.S. Sen. Carl Levin and DNC member Debbie Dingell.

Shorter version: It not only gives Obama all of the uncommitted delegates, a number that includes those who voted for uncommitted for Edwards, it includes those who voted for Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel and gives him some that voted for Hillary. [More...]

A separate plan submitted to the rules committee by Democratic National Committee members Joel Ferguson of Michigan and Jon Ausman of Florida, both superdelegates, apparently will be withdrawn now that the Michigan executive committee has settled on the 69-59 plan. Under their proposal, delegates would have been allocated based on the primary election results, but have had only half a vote each. The superdelegates would have had full voting rights.

On April 29 when it was proposed, I wrote a long post outlining why the planned Michigan compromise was unfair to Hillary. I'm just going to reprint it below as my thoughts haven't changed.

The DNC has previously said both would have to approve any plan. Obama's refusal to agree to the revote led to the Michigan legislature refusing to vote on it before they recessed.

Michigan Primary Results (Jan. 15, 2008)(from MI Secretary of State's office):

Clinton 328,309
Chris Dodd 3,845

Dennis Kucinich 21,715

Mike Gravel 2,361

Uncommitted 238,168

As I wrote here,

On January 15, 2008, 594,398 Democrats went to their polling places and voted in their state's primary. The official Michigan election results are here.

328,309 Democrats in Michigan voted for Hillary Clinton. She won all but two counties, Washtenaw and Emmet. 238,168 voted uncommitted. 21,715 voted for Dennis Kucinich. 3,845 voted for Chris Dodd. 2,361 voted for Mike Gravel.

Hillary got 55% of the vote. The uncommitted, who either were truly uncommitted or for Obama, Edwards or Biden, all three of whom voluntarily withdrew their names from the ballot, got 40%. Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel won 5% of the vote.

Barack Obama proposed he get 50% of the state's delegates. That would be vote-stealing. It would be disenfranchising 5% of Hillary's voters. It would be assuming that every uncommitted voter and every voter for Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel now want their vote to go to Obama.

As to all the Michigan plans proposed so far, none are fair to Hillary. I think all the delegates, not half of them, should be counted. Hillary should get her's now. Those who voted uncommitted should be seated at the convention as uncommitted votes and they choose between Hillary and Obama then, if the race is still going on.

From the letter sent today by the Michigan Democrats:

The Clinton campaign has taken the position that the results of the January 15 primary should be honored and that Senator Clinton should receive 73 pledged delegates in accordance with the vote she received. The Obama campaign has taken the position that the January 15 primary results should be ignored and that the 128 pledged delegates should be seated but evenly divided between the two candidates. Both candidates have a basis for their argument. The January 15 primary result was flawed because Senator Obama’s name was not on the ballot. He took his name off the ballot, interpreting the DNC injunction and the New Hampshire pledge against campaigning in Michigan to require him to take that affirmative step. As a result, we cannot totally agree with the Clinton campaign’s position that the outcome of the primary should be honored and that the pledged delegates should be apportioned 73/55 (Clinton/Obama). At the same time, we also cannot accept the position of the Obama campaign that the primary should be totally ignored and the pledged delegates should be evenly apportioned 64/64 between the two candidates, given the fact that almost 600,000 Democrats voted in the January 15 primary, 55% of whom voted for Senator Clinton and 45% of whom voted for Uncommitted or other candidates.

....As a result, we recommend that the Michigan Democratic Party request the DNC to seat Michigan’s delegates, and that the pledged delegates be apportioned 69 to Senator Clinton and 59 to Senator Obama. That approach splits the difference between the 73/55 position of the Clinton campaign and the 64/64 position of the Obama campaign, based on our belief that both sides have fair arguments about the Michigan primary. While we expect that neither candidate will explicitly embrace this approach, we believe that the DNC should adopt it and both candidates should accept it because it is fair and because it would resolve an impasse that with each passing day hurts our chances of carrying Michigan and winning the Presidency. We also believe that the DNC must exercise the leadership to resolve this impasse and not allow it to fester any longer.

As to the plan to seat all the superdelegates and half the pledged delegates, the letter says:

Mr. Fergusons’s proposed remedy – seating Michigan’s so-called super-delegates with a full vote, and seating Michigan’s pledged delegates with a half vote – is unacceptable to us on two grounds. First, we cannot agree to a remedy that allows for super-delegates who didn’t run for the position to have a full vote, while pledged delegates selected by the voters have only half a vote. Second, we see no justification for seating Michigan’s delegates with anything less than full voting rights. If Michigan is punished for fighting the DNC’s decision to grant New Hampshire a waiver, it will hurt the Party’s chances of carrying Michigan in November.

Michigan is a toss-up state. Democrats cannot afford to lose it. That's exactly what will happen, I predict, if voters in Michigan either don't have their votes count in determining the nominee or if they voted for Hillary and see their vote being given to Obama.

The plan to seat 1/2 the delegates looks DOA. Obama's response to today's proposal:

Obama spokesman Bill Burton said of the decision, “It is clear results in January won’t be used to allocate delegates, and we agree with that decision. We have been talking with Michigan leaders about this proposal and will continue to do so.”

Meanwhile, John McCain is busy courting voters in Michigan:

He attended a fundraiser in the state Tuesday night with former rival Mitt Romney before holding a town hall meeting this morning at Oakland University in the Detroit suburb of Rochester.

“Clinton and Obama have boycotted Michigan for a long time while John McCain has been getting to know us,” state Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said in his blog.

Barack Obama removed himself from the Michigan ballot and may get the delegates from those who voted for Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel, those who voted uncommitted, which includes those who voted for Edwards or truly were uncommitted and and 5 of HIllary's delegates.

This is fair? This is new politics? This is vote-stealing.

More here and here.

Update: 11:00 pm Comments now closed.

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  • Display: Sort:
    The logical solution is to give Obama (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:57:40 PM EST
    no delegates whatsoever. Alice Palmer tells me you won't even need signature challenges to take him off the ballot. Give him some of his own medicine.

    The Nominee Selected (5.00 / 2) (#266)
    by Jon on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:43:30 PM EST
    Doesn't this make Sen. Obama the nominee who was "selected" and not "elected?"  

    What happened to the party that wanted all the votes counted?

    Parent

    That Would Be Great! And Why Am I Not (none / 0) (#130)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:00 PM EST
    surprised they would offer something totally unfair to Hillary and continue to brown-nose obama?  Are they that desperate to have an easily manipulated sock puppet in the WH to do their bidding.  Although he probably won't win in the GE and all their nefarious workings will be for naught.

    Parent
    umm.. (none / 0) (#218)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:27:42 PM EST
    the DNC Rules Panel voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.

    Don't blame Obama.  

    Parent

    We Have To Go Through This (5.00 / 2) (#233)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:01:39 PM EST
    Again.

    Your statement is ridiculous.

    The DNC approved a Michigan plan to re-vote the primary.

    Obama refused to support that plan.

    That should be simple enough to understand.

    Obama refused a plan to include the people of Michigan and proposed to take what he did not earn. A consistant pattern of behavior with him.

    If Obama people want Clinton people to support their candidate then people like AgreeToDisagree are doing damage to that cause by making ridiculous comments on an issue that's an open and shut case.

    Parent

    True, Obama cannot be ... (5.00 / 1) (#251)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:44:19 PM EST
    blamed for the original DNC decision, BUTTTT HE IS TO BE BLAMED FOR NOT CONTRIBUTING TO A FAIR SOLUTION: GIVE THE PROPORTIONAL VOTES THAT HILLARY WON!
    Isn't his platform ALL ABOUT FAIRNESS?

    Parent
    the logical solution (5.00 / 12) (#3)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:03 PM EST
    is to give Hillary her delegates and let the rest go to the convention in Denver as uncommitted.

    I agree completely. (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:48 PM EST
    Don't give Obama anything he didn't earn.

    Parent
    But Mark, You Don't Understand, obama (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:51 PM EST
    gets many things he doesn't deserve.

    Parent
    How is that? (1.00 / 1) (#220)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:29:28 PM EST
    Why punish Obama when it was the DNC Rules Panel that voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.  Clinton supporters were involved.

    Now, the game is over, and HRC has lost, so you cry about the rules.  

    Parent

    Didn't Michigan already assign delegates? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:04:02 PM EST
    I thought that Obama got most, but unions won some.  That makes sense, Obama got most and the rest go basically unaffiliated.

    Parent
    Of course. But this has never been about logic. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:35 PM EST
    It has always been about how can we get Obama the nomination.  He deserves zero pledged delegates, Hillary deserves 73 pledged delegates and the 55 uncommitted.

    Parent
    Yup. (none / 0) (#43)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:39 PM EST
    Exactamente (5.00 / 9) (#77)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:28:27 PM EST
    I didn't realize this afternoon that the latest proposal stole delegates from Clinton.  I thought it just awarded Obama all the uncommitteds -- unfair, but under the circumstances tolerable.

    Under what delusional set of circumstances does the Obama campaign justify stealing some of Hillary's delegates?  Because if the Precious had been on the ballot, surely fewer people would hav voted for her?  

    So now we are rewarding Obama for not actually being on the ballot?

    Screw'em. Let Obama reap the whirlwind. In the last 24 hours, Obama and his followers have turned me from "come together" Democrat to a "screw'em" Democrat.

    Parent

    How can you steal delegates when (none / 0) (#137)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:00 PM EST
    they are imaginary anyway?

    Please understand: currently Clinton has ZERO delegates from Michigan. Michigan currently has ZERO delegates to be seated at the convention. These are imaginary delegates. If I have a pretend DeLorean and you say you've stolen it, are you guilty of grand theft auto?

    You cannot steal something from somebody if they don't have it.

    Parent

    If all of the delegates (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:00:25 PM EST
    are imaginary, then how can anyone argue that Obama won?

    Parent
    The Michigan delegates are (none / 0) (#192)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:04:28 PM EST
    imaginary. The DNC stripped all of Michigan's delegates last summer. As a result the January vote had zero effect in apportioning Michigan delegates for the convention in Denver. That is what makes Michigan's (and Florida's) delegates imaginary.

    Parent
    Then why do Obama's supporters (5.00 / 2) (#244)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    keep talking about how Hillary is trying to "steal the nomination" from him.

    He doesn't have it yet. So how can she steal it?

    Parent

    2.8 million voters are imaginary? (5.00 / 1) (#253)
    by NO2WONDERBOY on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:51:50 PM EST
    This is the INCLUSION your candidate proposes? Those "imaginary" voters, will be very REAL when November comes around and Florida and Michigan go RED!

    Parent
    The problem with this: (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Kathy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:43 PM EST
    give Hillary her delegates and let the rest go to the convention in Denver as uncommitted.

    (imminently logical as it is) is the statement made earlier this week by an unnamed SD who plainly said that Clinton needs two things for the SDs to migrate her way: the popular vote argument and to be within 100 pledged delegates of Obama.

    With FL and MI seated, basically in any fair way, she closes that 100 gap.  That's the magic number here.  That's why she's pushing into WVA, KY and PR, because she knows if she hits that number, she'll have this wrapped up.

    And that's why, despite his cries of Mission Accomplished, Obama is still campaigning hard.  If he's already won, why doesn't he take a two week vacation?

    Parent

    So your position is that Michigan should pay (1.00 / 2) (#88)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:33 PM EST
    no price whatsoever for defying the DNC's schedule? You think that any state in the future should be free to ignore the DNC's primary schedule, allowing the process to fall into complete chaos? When you practice law, do you believe that you get to pick and choose from the court rules you follow?

    Your position is ridiculous, Jeralyn. The fairest position of all is that no delegates whatsoever be counted from Michigan, because the Michigan defied the DNC's schedule and that was the penalty the DNC established.

    But since that seems to bother Michigan voters so much, everybody is looking for a compromise that will assuage the sentiments of Michigan voters and not tip the scales unfairly in either direction.

    Your proposed solution is the least fair of any.

    Parent

    MI defied the DNC rules! Off with their heads! (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:28 PM EST
    good god, man, get a control of yourself -- they didn't defy the constitution, they defied the DNC rules which called for a 50% reduction in delegates for "defying the rules" and the DNC then decided apropos of nothing to "overrule" those rules to give them NO delegates. So, if the DNC can "overrule" the rules on a whim, those rules aren't exactly set in stone.

    Parent
    Brilliant! (none / 0) (#123)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:42:48 PM EST
    Except there's no DNC rule that limits the penalty imposed to a 50% reduction in delegates. So unfortunately your argument fails.

    Parent
    Teh DNC blew it (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:47:52 PM EST
    withthe overall architecture of the primary season and the PR aspect of the rules.

    The result that is being manufactured does not look very democratic. It does not look very inspiring and does not advertise Dems as good reformers and rule makers.  It makes us look foolish and pedantic.

    Parent

    oh yes there is (none / 0) (#131)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:07 PM EST
    and if I knew how to do links on here, I would link you to it. That is exactly what the "ROOLZ" say. I know it is you first day here, but try do a little research instead of just making things up.

    Parent
    sorry, it isn't your first day here (none / 0) (#139)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:14 PM EST
    I wish I could edit -- but the rest of my response to you is true -- a 50% loss of delegates is exactly what the rules called for, and the DNC decided to "overrule" those rules, in the words of Donna Brazile "to send a message to FL & MI." I even saw the tape of the meeting.

    Parent
    you know digdugboy is just here to rile people (4.00 / 1) (#146)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    up.  you would do well to ignore.

    Parent
    Not true (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:25 PM EST
    I've stated more times than I should have to that I'd be perfectly happy with either candidate as the democratic nominee.

    Each candidate knew Michigan was not going to count at the outset. After both acknowledged this, Obama took his name off the ballot.

    Jeralyn's proposed solution requires that no significance whatsoever attach to these two critical facts. The only reason anybody could possibly ignore these facts is if his or her partisanship for Clinton was so overwhelming as to disable any sense of reason and fairness. That's what I object to.

    Parent

    The story on Obama's removal of his name (5.00 / 2) (#243)
    by andrys on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:29:43 PM EST
    The Iowa Independent told of the political moves by young "New Politics" Obama to remove his name when he was 20 points down in the polls and the rules said NOTHING about removing one's name.  "Participating in the campaign" does not include leaving one's name on for the voting day which the DNC planned would not count but the rules are subject to modification within those rules.  But read the Iowa Independent story for the description of Obama's maneuvering at that time.

     Don't forget that he TOLD the Michigan people to vote for UNCOMMITTED.  Kucinich, Dodd, and Gravel's names were of course also still on, and so there were 4 names there PLUS "uncommitted choice" which Obama recommended.  His staff and surrogates reminded Michiganer's of this choice.

      So, unlike Jeralyn in this case, I do favor giving Obama the Uncommitted number to actually "compromise"  EVEN if Edwards would have received about 15-20% of those.  Hillary would keep hers, as she didn't, unlike Obama, tell the Michiganers to do or not do anything nor did she in any way campaign.

      The votes, if he wants to get elected in November, HAVE TO COUNT toward the nominee or it is an INVALID nominee by the eyes of many voters, including me.  

      If the ONLY way he can get the nomination is to IGNORE the actual votes of voters, then his campaign for the presidency is doomed.  It is dishonest and fearful of voters as usual (always trying to either remove opponents or get them to withdraw via pressure).

      For the best informal writeup I've seen of this situation, as it stands now especially (if Obama wants to be at all competitive in Michigan and Florida, which will be crucial), see Tom of Paine's article on this subject, from yesterday.

    Parent

    digdugboy (none / 0) (#254)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:53:00 PM EST
    You've accepted the G rated version of Obama's withdrawal from the Michigan ballot.

    His withdrawal was far more cynical. The withdrawal was done to taint a sure Clinton victory.

    Your "critical facts" are without merit.

    Parent

    And the DNC was perfectly entitled, within its (none / 0) (#142)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:22 PM EST
    rules, to impose greater punishment.

    Parent
    Bothers me. (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:47 PM EST
    I'm a Michigan voter.

    If the delegates are not seated, and not seated and assigned prior to the convention as is, I WILL not vote Obama.

    I would accept a 50% reduction per the calendar rules.  That's where I disagree with Jeralyn.  50% is what it should have been out of the gate and I'm fine with that.

    DNC tried to make 100% stick.  It backfired, and now they want to backpedal.  First 50/50, and now committed Obama delegates AT ALL?

    Delegation is seated as the voters voted and as allocated.  If it's docked a percentage, fine by me.  Nothing greater than a 50% reduction.


    Parent

    I think the DNC (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    are guilty of overdoing it with Michigan.

    Complete stripping was cruel and unusual.

    btw iit's not like the rules in other states are either

    Conducive to Democratic results: See Nevada

    or Proportionally weighted:

    See Alaska's 4,000 caucus goers  cancel out much larger states that had 200,000 strong majorities.

    The entire architecture of the Primary system failed catastophically.

    The GOP would be well advised to block any Democratic Party electoral reforms that are proposed after watching this fiasco.

    Parent

    I won't even accept that now. (5.00 / 3) (#145)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:37 PM EST
    As pointed out by Steve, MI has already been punished in the most historic election by not being able to have the candidates campaign, no advertising and particularly, no money.  I what to reiterate Steve's excellent points - MI and FL have already been punished and as he also pointed out, I also highly doubt that there will be any states that will try to "break the rules" and risk that type of retaliation.

    Parent
    Agreed IN PART. (none / 0) (#194)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    I think Michigan should have been docked 50% out of the gate.  If so, this wouldn't have been a question, and would have been a better political angle for both the DNC and Obama, not that I would want that.  But...

    "Michigan ALWAYS counted.  Just per the rules it was docked 50%.  The superdelegates still count, as does every citizen's vote.  Just not pledged delegates.  But it CAN be revewed at the convention."

    Is much better than...

    "Michigan does not count.  The popular vote is irrelevant because the ballot was not honest.  Soviet election!  Forget Michigan superdelegates, and no re-vote!  Onward to South Dakota!"

    Now I'm irate.  But I would have accepted 50% then.  Now both the DNC and Obama have a lot to make up for.  They should just buy some homes in the state and just set up permanent shop at this point.  It might help with the housing statistics.

    And don't forget to drink lots of Vernors, drive a GM car, and eat many pasties and Grand Traverse cherries!

    Parent

    Okay, then don't vote Obama (none / 0) (#150)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:26 PM EST
    nobody's going to beg you to change your mind. So long as you're happy with McCain as your president, that's what really matters, I guess.

    Parent
    I'm Catholic, sweetie. (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:54:42 PM EST
    I have a strong shield against that tired ol' heavy hand of guilt.

    Parent
    Glad to hear it, sugarbuns. (none / 0) (#175)
    by digdugboy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:30 PM EST
    Why haven't the other prominent (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:47 PM EST
    elected MI Dems. signed the letter?  Where are the Gov. and Conyers, for instance?

    Parent
    Granholm. (none / 0) (#188)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:27 PM EST
    1. She's an out and proud Clinton advocate.  It would be poor PR.  She was talking to the press pumping Hillary as recently as pre-Ohio (whereas AZ Gov. Napolitano was attacking for Obama).  Obama supporters would SCREAAAAM if Granholm signed anything.

    2. She's term limited, and won her re-election without any help from Rahm, Dean, or the other DNC members who were more than happy to pander to the Mountain West without investing more than a lick to the State in '06.

    So she really doesn't owe much to the DNC, and more important she'd be seen as a "Clinton Surrogate."  She worked for a re-vote, but that was gunned down by you-know-who.

    Granholm will keep low in this, aside from a very politically ambiguous "Michigan should count," like she advocated pre-Ohio.

    Parent

    Here's the problem. (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:38 PM EST
    McCain does quite well in Michigan. If he were to pick Romney as VP--he'd prolly win Michigan.

    A dispute over a bylaw (in a fatally flawed architecture of stupid rules) should be followed if it gives the GOp an inch of room in November.

    Stripping Michigan completely was draconian stupidity.  

     

    Parent

    Romney probably gains MI (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by RalphB on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:49 PM EST
    for McCain.  As an added little bonus, he would almost guarantee McCain Colorado.  He also gives him some cover on the economy.  Romney would be a good VP pick for Sen McCain.

    I'm starting to be concerned about the GOP ticket because I fully expect McCain to be elected in November, if he runs against Obama.


    Parent

    I bet they are crunching (none / 0) (#181)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:21 PM EST
    The Mormon factor in Tempe HQ.

    All that tithe cash, all those foot soldiers, all the residents, right smack in the middle of Obama's Western Strategy (added Bonus Michigan and extra padding numbers in New England.)  It must be tempting McCain.  I don't know if Romney is respected in Mass but he did win there in some capacity before.

    The only problem would be a Catholic counter attack at the pulpit.

    Parent

    Exactly. (none / 0) (#209)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:21 PM EST
    Michigan went 3 -- 3! -- points to Kerry in '04.  This was coming off of George W. Bush.  

    Michigan is hemhorraging young professionals -- aka Obama's supposed "expansion."

    Labor and the economy dominate Michigan.

    And never forget how much the Detroit suburbs -- and much of the State -- despise "Black Detroit."

    The MI GOP will have a field day exploiting this.  Remember that this is the State that in the same election voted in a Democratic Governor who was under a lot of reelection heat by 14 points, but then also voted FOR an Affirmative Action ban by 16 even though she campaigned against it.

    Add ammunition on this whole "not counting" bull, and boy o boy is it tragic.

    Parent

    Uh (5.00 / 4) (#112)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:09 PM EST
    Michigan got nothing for defying the DNC's schedule.  They got no media attention for their primary, they got no dollars for the economy from a campaign in their state, they got no benefit whatsoever.

    If the most important thing to Michigan were making sure they get a delegation at the convention, they could have ensured themselves of that just by keeping a normal date.  Giving them a delegation hardly means "they got away with it."  They will have gained absolutely nothing by it.

    But yeah, I guess all the states in 2012 will realize "gee, if we don't mind having no media attention, no candidate visits, and no dollars for the economy, we can get away with holding our primary whenever we like!"

    Parent

    dollars for the economy can't be that great (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:40 PM EST
    I can see a small state like NH or IA wanting 12 months of campaign spending from 20 campaigns. That adds up. But what is the effect on later states, especially big states?

    I think the bigger danger is that next time every Republican controlled state like FL will jump the rules to cause chaos amongst the Dems. Worked great this year. They get the weaker candidate to run against.

    Parent

    It makes a huge difference (none / 0) (#185)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:03 PM EST
    Sen. Levin hasn't been fighting for an early primary all these years because he likes seeing his name in the paper.

    It means a tremendous amount in terms of both dollars and clout within the party.  MI and FL got none of that.

    Parent

    Are you kidding? (none / 0) (#202)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:13:22 PM EST
    1. Michigan has a challenged economy.  The Governor here has been hitting on this for YEARS.  It's ripe for Economic Policy Talk.

    2. Michigan is expanding in life sciences, advanced manufacturing, alternative energies, and national security -- all GREAT Democratic talking points thanks to a Democratic State Executive.

    3. Labor Unions.  Vociferously democratic.

    4. Hunting, foresting, tourism.  Many states are turning to tourism for dollars.

    5. State pride.

    6. Small towns ravaged by loss of manufacturing.  They could do well with some tourism dollars and state pride thanks to a Presidential Primary.

    7. Detroit.  America's "Black City," and ravaged by poverty, illiteracy, and crime.  It's also America's only urban center to go UNDER 1,000,000 in population.  No appeal there whatsoever?

    Michigan is a big state, but it's also a DEBTOR state.  It's a challenged state.  And it's heavily Republican outside of labor and the cities of Detroit, Ann Arbor, Lansing, Flint, and Kalamazoo.

    Need I go on?  

    Parent

    I get all that (none / 0) (#228)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    And you probably have one of the best public universities in the country. As a Wisconsin alum I say that grudgingly. But can you give me a number for the economic stimulus of a primary campaign once every 4 years?  I bet the NCAA regional basketball tournament in Detroit this year did far more. Even one Detroit Tigers game probably does more. If they make the playoffs again you will probably get a couple decades of political primary spending equivalents.

    I can see the benefit of a national spotlight for a week discussing MI and getting the candidates to promise to help but I don't get the campaign dollars having lasting effect.

    Parent

    I appreciate (none / 0) (#248)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:36:59 PM EST
    the compliment to my alma mater, Michigan State.

    In exchange, I will mention that the Wisconsin Ultimate Frisbee team threw us a hell of a party in Madison once upon a time.

    Parent

    Short term v. Long term. (none / 0) (#265)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:29:26 PM EST
    Fans for a day, re: bi-partisan national sporting event coverage?

    Or fans for a while, re: Democratic Presidential coverage?

    Difference.

    Parent

    What was turnout like in MI (none / 0) (#176)
    by IndiDemGirl on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:29 PM EST
    for the primary?  (You are the Steve from Mich, right?)  I mean in every other primary state (and even caucus states) turnout was off the charts.  It broke records. What about new voter registration.  Again,every other state had oodles of new voters - Dem voters.

    I think that too many people did not participate because they thought their vote wouldn't count. Just counting the votes that were cast still disenfranchises voters because the entire process was tainted.

    Yes, I want to seat MI and FL.  But the compromise has to seem fair - and outside of the pro-Hillary sites nobody thinks counting an election where one candidates name wasn't on the ballot is fair.  

    Parent

    It was (5.00 / 3) (#196)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:08:34 PM EST
    strong turnout, as I recall, but not nearly to the level that we've seen in other states.

    Here's the thing.  Obama figured there was no way he would win MI.  And so part of the strategic reason behind taking his name off the ballot was to decrease the chances that somehow, that election would end up counting.

    To some extent, that worked, because yes it would be unfair to give him 0 votes at this point.  But once you realize the strategic thinking that went into the decision, you come to understand that there's not a whole lot of justice in any result.

    Reality is that, talking points notwithstanding, everyone knew there was a chance those elections would end up counting at some point.  In Florida, the major newspapers all urged Democrats to get out and vote, citing a substantial likelihood that the results would end up getting counted in some fashion.  Obama took steps to make sure that would be less likely in MI, and what he did was probably a smart political move.  But this notion of an innocent, trusting Obama, blithely removing his name from the ballot because all the grownups had promised him the election wouldn't count, is really quite silly and I get tired of the people who push it.

    As a MI native, it really burns me up to think that the state might somehow end up in McCain's column.  It would kill me.  I will accept any resolution of this situation whatsoever, if it means we won't have to watch McCain win Michigan.

    Parent

    Yawn. (5.00 / 4) (#114)
    by madamab on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:40 PM EST
    You guys are so boring.

    Do you ever, ever tell the truth about anything?

    You could not care LESS about the rules. In fact, you don't even know what they are. Newsflash, the remedy in the RULES was the 50% solution. The Republicans did it and they're doing fine.

    All you want is for Obama to beat HRC. We know it and you know it.

    Please stop the intellectual dishonesty. It's pathetic.

    Parent

    digdugboy your comments (none / 0) (#252)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:44:51 PM EST
    are ridiculous.

    Two things you've chosen to ignore:

    The penalty under the RULES was for a 50% loss of delegates.

    Before handing down a ruling the DNC is supposed to hold a hearing according to the RULES.

    The DNC chose instead to break the RULES.

    You wouldn't know fair if it bit you in the fanny.

    Parent

    digdugboy (none / 0) (#255)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:02:20 PM EST
    You are mindlessly suggesting that the voters in the 8th largest state in the union be ignored.

    A re-vote was approved by the DNC and Obama refused.

    That being the case, the only fair solution is that the January 15 vote be used as is.

    Including the 8th largest state in the process and doing it according to the only indication of the decision of Michigan voters is the only fair and equitable course.

    You have no moral or ethical leg to stand on and your GE calculus is foolish.

    Parent

    I'm surprised they decided (none / 0) (#23)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:13 PM EST
    to remove some of what she earned.

    I think the uncommitted may as well be his.

    But a 10 del spread is not really reflective of the vote that occurred.

    Are the extra 8 Obama dels designed to be a final FU?

    Parent

    And that's (none / 0) (#238)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM EST
    the only legitimate solution.  

    Since Obama refused a re-vote his position is that either the state's voters be ignored altogether, deligitimizing a possible nomination or he should be forced to accept the only legitimate indication of the decision of Michigan's voters and that's the LEGAL election held on January 15.

    The election was called by statute under Michigan law and administered as a public election by the state of Michigan.

    Parent

    That's (none / 0) (#245)
    by cal1942 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    the only legitimate solution.  

    Since Obama refused a re-vote his position is that either the state's voters be ignored altogether, deligitimizing a possible nomination or he should be forced to accept the only legitimate indication of the decision of Michigan's voters and that's the LEGAL election held on January 15.

    The election was called by statute under Michigan law and administered as a public election by the state of Michigan.

    Parent

    It's an atrocity (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by stillife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:54 PM EST
    I get the same helpless feeling that I did watching Gore being shut down by SCOTUS in 2000.  

    Jeez, I feel like a lot of 3rd world emerging nations are more democratic than we are.

    Would Jimmy Carter approve that settlement? (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:01:27 PM EST
    Sorry, of course he would.  It seem that he is not concerned about voting rights in the US.  Maybe, if Michigan joined Canada  and Florida joined Cuba, then Clinton would care.

    My guess is that is a typo (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:13 PM EST
    It happens.

    Parent
    Huh? "Then Clinton would care"? (none / 0) (#62)
    by Cream City on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:00 PM EST
    Pls. explain.

    Parent
    Sorry typo--'then Carter would care" (none / 0) (#96)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:34:12 PM EST
    Stop, (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:02:00 PM EST
    Thief!

    So...if my friend voted Gravel (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by kredwyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:02:28 PM EST
    her vote goes to Obama?

    Did Gravel endorse Obama? Did he say that it was okay to move his vote into another column?

    I will just note this (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:43 PM EST
       The 69-59 split was proposed last week by four prominent Michigan Democrats who have been working for months to find a way to get Michigan's delegates seated at the Aug. 25-28 convention in Denver: U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger, U.S. Sen. Carl Levin and DNC member Debbie Dingell.

    All of these Democrats are undeclared, but like Donna Brazile, not necessarily undecided.

    Rep. Kilpatrick, like her son, is said to support Hillary.  If it's true, they kinda keep it quiet, for reasons that should be obvious.

    Gettelfinger and the UAW are nominally neutral, although I can tell you the autoworkers are not big Obama fans in general.  You may have noticed that he gives them the Sista Souljah treatment in every stump speech, when he boasts about having the guts to go to Detroit and lecture them on fuel economy standards.

    Carl Levin is undeclared, but his brother Sander is a Clinton superdelegate.  They are very close.

    Debbie Dingell, I have no firsthand knowledge, but I'll be shocked if she's not a Hillary supporter.  Her husband is a Clinton superdelegate, in any event.

    I am not saying these people are making the proposal in order to benefit Hillary, but it seems really unlikely that they're looking to screw her.  Just saying.

    Then hopefully this is the start... (none / 0) (#89)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:33 PM EST
    of the negotiation and if Hillary takes a hard line they can compromise on the equitable solution.

    Parent
    well, with friends like these n/t (none / 0) (#104)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:21 PM EST
    OK (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by sas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:57 PM EST
    on a point of honor - why would he take delegates he did not earn?

    I realize - duh - to get the nomination - but he has no integrity.

    UGH!

    Another W.

    This, from the Michigan Dems, (5.00 / 5) (#33)
    by Anne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:21 PM EST
    is utter BS:
    The Obama campaign has taken the position that the January 15 primary results should be ignored and that the 128 pledged delegates should be seated but evenly divided between the two candidates. Both candidates have a basis for their argument. The January 15 primary result was flawed because Senator Obama's name was not on the ballot. He took his name off the ballot, interpreting the DNC injunction and the New Hampshire pledge against campaigning in Michigan to require him to take that affirmative step. As a result, we cannot totally agree with the Clinton campaign's position that the outcome of the primary should be honored and that the pledged delegates should be apportioned 73/55 (Clinton/Obama).

    Are we the only ones who can smell it?  

    I posted this on the earlier Michigan thread, and I haven't changed my mind about it:

    This "compromise" proposes to reduce Hillary's delegates by 4, award all of the Uncommitted delegates to someone who was not even on the ballot, and increase that total by 4.

    I would reject it, too, on the basis of our not having a practice of giving votes and delegates to candidates who did not stand for election by being on the ballot.  And I would further reject it on the basis that we are not in the practice of unilaterally deciding to take delegates away from a candidate for no reason that has any legitimacy.

    Finally, manipulating the delegate count as proposed is in defiance of the actual vote.  If I lived in Michigan and had voted, I would wonder whether my vote for Hillary had effectively been canceled and given to a candidate for whom I did not vote.

    Obama rejected every single proposal that would force him to stand for election in Michigan; Hillary rejecting this proposal is not "bad," unless you think she should approve - that we all should approve - of giving in to the willful tantrums of a candidate who outmaneuvered himself and now wants to subvert the political process to his own benefit.

    Heck, using Obama's rationale, a general election where McCain was on the ballot against Uncommitted would result in a landslide victory for Obama, right?

    I still cannot believe that the party that fought tooth and nail on the side of fair and honest presidential elections, which held hearings on the integrity of the vote, is not just allowing votes to be taken from one candidate and given to another, it is promoting it as a solution to a problem that it created.

    It just defies all reason.

    No. (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:32 PM EST
    Are we the only ones who can smell it?  

    This was a effort to affect the nomination from the get-go.

    Parent

    It doesn't defy reason (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:30:14 PM EST
    It just defines morality.

    Parent
    Of course it is fair! (5.00 / 6) (#39)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:05 PM EST
    Obama gets credit for people who didn't vote for him and Hillary doesn't get credit for people who voted for her. It's the new definition of "fair" -- (other new definitions in Obamaworld: UP is DOWN, BLACK is WHITE and GOOD is BAD).

    I like the idea of not seating SD's (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:19 PM EST
    for MI & FL as I think BTD brought up some time ago. Or maybe he was just referencing that idea. Anyway, that would be a nice slap on the wrist to some of the folks responsible for the mess. Of course I'd do the same to certain members of the DNC. I'm looking at you Brazile. :-)

    How exactly (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:19:04 PM EST
    is 73 delegates to ZERO delegates fair, Jeralyn.

    And please don't go back to the canard about Obama be responsible for his actions.  Hillary is just as responsible for allowing those states to be stripped of their rights.

    And even if Obama is responsible for his actions how does that jibe with your claims that you are concerned about the will of the voters?  So it's ok to deny the voices of Obama supporters in Michigan entirely?  How is that fair to those voters?

    Arguments about fairness require fairness on both sides.  Your one sided arguments of fairness ring hollow and that is why they have never gotten any traction.

    what part of "no votes" (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:42 PM EST
    don't you understand? No one voted for Obama in MI. And that was a direct result of his choosing to take his name off the ballot, even though there was no requirement for him to do so.  

    Parent
    One other thing Jeralyn (none / 0) (#56)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:20:19 PM EST
    Would you be ok with giving Hillary Michigan and Florida as is if it meant that the superdelegates no longer had a vote?

    Parent
    Give Hillary ALL of the FL and MI delegates (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:25:03 PM EST
    (penalizing Obama in FL because he campaigned in FL), and remove the SD's. That's reasonable.

    Parent
    Great (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:12 PM EST
    Let's get it done!

    Hillary would get about 115 delegate swing.  That would be huge!

    Parent

    He didn't follow rules. (5.00 / 4) (#61)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:22:35 PM EST
    He chose to take his name off the ballot.

    Give it up.

    Pathetic ... (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by dwmorris on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:12 PM EST
    The unwillingness of the BO campaign to graciously seat all of Clinton's delegates when Obama has a virtual lock on the nomination is absolutely pathetic.  What's Obama afraid off?

    Um (none / 0) (#70)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:26:13 PM EST
    The MI delegates are choosing how to partition the delegates, not the Obama camp.

    Instead of being vague about it, why doesn't the Clinton campaign come out publicly and say we want 55% of the delegates, and Obama can take the 40% (that's what the 73/55 split comes out to)?

    She's just wasting time trying to make something bigger than it is.

    The delegates will be seated.  They were always going to be seated.

    Parent

    Red herring (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by dwmorris on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:18 PM EST
    We need a new acronym in addition to WORM ... INOF (it's never Obama's fault).  The candidates have the power to dictate terms.  Clinton wants her delegates seated and I'm fairly certain they've signalled that they are willing to allow Obama to have all the undeclared delegates as a quid pro quo (even though some are rightfully Edwards').  It's in Obama's court now and the response has been, dare I say, both divisive and unpresidential.

    Parent
    Well said. (1.00 / 2) (#94)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:33:40 PM EST
    The whole issue is just sour grapes.

    Parent
    Obama didn't need to remove his name. (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:25 PM EST
    He was (along witrh Edwards) playing a game. Currying favour with Iowa and NH.

    So true (none / 0) (#203)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:15:01 PM EST
    Have Edwards, Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:42 PM EST
    been asked how they feel about Obama taking their votes in Michigan?

    I am suggesting following the rules, and (5.00 / 4) (#83)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:30:25 PM EST
    NOT letting Obama get away with technically adhering to the rules about advertising, when he actually plastered FL with ads for a month before the election. I'm sure Donna Brazile would agree with me that harsh measures are appropriate in order to teach lessons.

    Where in the rules (none / 0) (#92)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:33:27 PM EST
    Does it say that a nominee shall be stripped of their delegates if they broke their pledge?

    Just make up the rules to achieve whatever goal you want, I guess.

    Parent

    Where does it say in the rules that no (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:27 PM EST
    delegates at all should be seated?
    It does not.
    Obama does not want to count the votes from FL and MI.
    A fair compromise is to count none of HIS votes, since he does not want them.

    Parent
    Actually it says just that (none / 0) (#128)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:53 PM EST
    The delegates from Michigan and Florida were not certified. As such they are not entitled to be seated.  It's explicitly in the rules.

    Parent
    mea cupla (none / 0) (#147)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:46 PM EST
    Misremembered what they said.

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:53 PM EST
    You've never read the delegate rules, have you?  You probably shouldn't go around boldly proclaiming what's not in there unless you have, because - hint hint - you might end up looking quite silly.

    Parent
    The agreement is unfair to the voters of Michigan. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by honora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:31:32 PM EST
    Of course, it is unfair to Clinton, but I have come to expect that.  How does this compromise reflect the will of the voters of Michigan?

    You Obama followers just repeat the same memes. (5.00 / 4) (#87)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:24 PM EST
    I guess you think (like your candidate does) that if you repeat lies and misrepresentations, it will be the truth (that is how propaganda works).

    As posters have said, Obama made a political calculation (he convinced Edwards, his toady Richardson, etal) to go along with taking their names voluntarily off the ballot.  Get over it!  Count the votes and allocate the delegates per the election results.  Any thing else is stealing votes and delegates.

    What you are supporting (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:39 PM EST
    has nothing to do with democracy. It's called vote-stealing.

    If you don't want to follow the actual voting in MI, there is a simple solution.  Just have Obama agree that the nomination is not won until he or Clinton accumulated 2209 delegates.

    No fighting over whether to seat FLA or MI. No fighting about allocation. Just agree that Obama doesn't get the benefit of a lower magic number by excluding MI and FLA.

    Simple. Elegant. And totally achievable, if Obama is as inevitable as you think.

    Yes, that is my preferred solution as well. (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:29 PM EST
    The first principle should be that 2209 is the magic number. The most likely result is that the nomination will take a second ballot. I'm fine with that.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#103)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:37:08 PM EST
    How am I vote stealing?  I just offered a solution in which the votes count AS-IS!  Please explain how that is vote stealing?  Every voter's voice is heard.  Are you suggesting that voiding the undemocratic superdelegates votes is somehow vote stealing?  Not allowing the party elite to choose the nominee is now vote stealing?

    If you prefer that we soldier on until one of the candidates achieves 2209, so be it.  Don't be disappointed, though, when the superdelegates vote en masse for the presumptive nominee and Obama reaches 2209.  I'm sure there will be a new set of goal posts at that time though.

    Parent

    Shifting votes away from Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:42 PM EST
    to Obama is vote-stealing.

    If you gave Obama delegates on the assumption that he would have gotten every uncommitted vote, you'd be stealing an unknown number of votes from John Edwards, but at this point he probably wouldn't complain.

    Awarding more that 55% of the delegates to Obama is vote-stealing.

    Parent

    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    I just said that she can have Michigan and Florida AS-IS.  She gets 73 delegates in Michigan.  He gets zero.  She gets 114 delegates in Florida, he gets 67(I think those are the vote results).  

    How is that vote-stealing?  It's a gift.  And all Hillary has to agree to is voiding the superdelegates right to subvert the will of the people.

    Parent

    the superdelegates (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:39 PM EST
    have a right to vote too.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#157)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:52 PM EST
    What right is that?  Where do they derive this right from?  

    You guys are seriously arguing that that the party elites have the right to be the equivalent of thousands of regular voters?

    Parent

    then SD's (none / 0) (#219)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:28:04 PM EST
    from TX, OK, MA  and even PA and other states would have to switch to Clinton...  That may not work out as well as you think...  You may see Clinton winning!  If you broke it down to constituencies and counties, well,  what would we find?

    Also,  lets face it, caucuses are undemocratic and the air of fraud hovers around the results...

    So, lets take back the caucus results while we are concerned about making the will of the people be heard.  Caucuses are more about MOB rule... and disenfranchise voters.


    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:40 PM EST
    how can you say in one breath that you are seating the delegates "as is" and in the next breath admit that you are "voiding" the election?

    And yeah, if Obama can get 2209 delegates without MI and FLA, I may still be angry and disappointed, but I won't be complaining about vote-stealing.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#151)
    by flyerhawk on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:48 PM EST
    Are you reading what I wrote?  

    I said void the superdelegates votes.  They have not voted yet.  Are you willfully twisting my comments?

    Parent

    How many votes did obama get? (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by karen for Clinton on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:35:26 PM EST
    Give him what he deserves.

    It isn't a bus anymore.  He is throwing us all under a big trash filled garbage truck.

    I Would Have To Say obama Rec'd Zero (none / 0) (#180)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:59:06 PM EST
    votes in Michigan, as his name was not on the ballot.

    Parent
    All the candidates spent time in FL... (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by ineedalife on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:16 PM EST
    before the election. It was not against the rules to fund raise there and they all did. Obama blatantly broke the rules more then once. He held a press conference and ran ads there. Then plead stupidity, ignorance, and victimhood each time. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Some future President, huh?

    What's your point? (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by lambert on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:21 PM EST
    Jeralyn writes:

    It not only gives Obama all of the uncommitted delegates, a number that includes those who voted for Edwards, Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel, it gives him some that voted for Hillary.

    What's not fair about that?

    Curious (none / 0) (#143)
    by Dave B on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:23 PM EST
    Is that a serious question?

    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#165)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:24 PM EST
    Lambert is  a terrific blogger and Hillary supporter with a great blog, correntewire.com

    Parent
    Thank You (none / 0) (#177)
    by Dave B on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:57:36 PM EST
    Another spot for me to visit daily...

    Parent
    I had to take a break after (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by eleanora on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:05 PM EST
    Tuesday night, because the coverage was making me insane. I'm a Democrat born and raised, chose it again as an adult, and always always said I'd work for whoever is the nominee. But this garbage is seriously making me think again. I'm so mad right now that I'm shaking. Hillary Clinton is getting railroaded, along with everyone who's voted for her and donated to her and worked for her. They think we're going to let this happen and just forget about it?

    I've changed my mind, the Democratic Party can't come back from this. We don't pull this garbage, we don't, we don't. Right now I don't see two stiches worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans.

    I do. (none / 0) (#260)
    by janarchy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:16:51 PM EST
    Personally, I think the Democrats are worse because for years, we've been the ones claiming to be above the b.s., the dirty tricks and the smearing. I'm 45 yrs old and I've never seen a Democratic primary season as disgustingly low as this one. Presidential campaign? Sure. But that's because we were facing the Republican Party who live and breathe winning at all costs, as taught to them by Richard Nixon and honed by people like Lee Atwater.

    At this point, I have more respect for the Republicans for at least being honest in their sneaky ways, rather than the Dems who are pretending they're above it all and think we don't notice.

    As the old adage goes, don't p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

    Parent

    MI = FL (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:19 PM EST
    if the proposal going to the RCB is based on the arguments that....

    was flawed because Senator Obama's name was not on the ballot. He took his name off the ballot, blah, blah

    ..we cannot totally agree with the Clinton campaign's position that the pledged delegates should be apportioned 73/55

    we also cannot accept the position of the Obama campaign that the primary should be totally ignored and pledged delegates be evenly apportioned 64/64 given the fact that almost 600,000 Democrats voted, 55% of whom voted for Clinton and 45% of whom voted for Uncommitted or other candidates.

    My thoughts relate to FL.  If these are the arguments.. Clinton get her votes, Obama gets all non-Clinton votes, Obama gets rewarded for being tricky with extra votes and delegates.

    So in FL: Clinton gets her 870,000 and Obama gets the non-Clinton votes of 866,000.  Does he also get additional delegates shifted for being tricky and violating the pledge not to campaign?


    "Hillary said it would not matter" (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Stellaaa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:46 PM EST
    Precisely on this point, I think Hillary makes a better executive.  Common thinking was that it would not matter.  Good planning and good public policy says, none the less, plan for the worse possible outcome.  

    She said it would not matter cause historically, a winner would have been clear.  But she made the right decision, leaving her name on, in case the worse happened.  

    What I may say is an indicator of how the Obama GE campaign will be run.  They think it's in the bag, making no plans about Hillary supporters and basically telling the world, they don't need the Democratic party, they created a new one.  

    See, why some of us thing, they are not ready for the car keys yet?  

    Dear Obama, (5.00 / 2) (#200)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:12:52 PM EST
    you decided to be a nobody in Michigan for political expediency, so as nobody you get no vote.

    How is it Obama's fault? (5.00 / 0) (#229)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:40:41 PM EST
    The DNC Rules Committee (Clinton had supporters on the Panel) voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.  The candidates knew the primary wouldn't count.

    Her inevitable candidacy became not and then she wants the rules changed.  It unfortunately does not work that way.  It is not Obama's or Edward's or anyone else's fault.  Walking away with any delegates would be a plus for the candidates; but stop blaming Obama.  it is silly.

    Parent

    He took his name off, he made himself a (5.00 / 1) (#237)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:12:51 PM EST
    NOBODY in Michigan.  That's just fine with me

    You see, I don't know any better, I am a  crass, uneducated, proud working class woman

    Parent

    This is a tiresome (none / 0) (#236)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:11:52 PM EST
    and intellectually dishonest argument and you know it.

    Parent
    Clinton (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by Emma on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:21 PM EST
    does keep saying it.  Nobody cares to report the truth.

    voting (5.00 / 1) (#206)
    by Leisa on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:58 PM EST
    should not be reduced to gambling in my opinion...

    Yaaaawwwwnnnnnnn (5.00 / 2) (#221)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:31:03 PM EST
    Dear Obama

    Where's my Unity Pony?  All your supporters ever bring is the stinky stuff.  I want my pony and I want it now.

    Dear Democratsunite (5.00 / 2) (#225)
    by Anne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:33:34 PM EST
    Dear Obama,

    Please earn the Democratic Nomination by  accepting responsibility for your own decisions, and recognizing that one must be on the ballot to have earned the votes of the people and the delegates that are allocated accordingly.  If we award delegates from Michigan and Florida based on the elections you may have to take a hit on delegates and votes, but this is the process, and it's the only legitimate path to the nomination. You could have advocated for a re-vote, but you chose to impede that solution because you may have feared the results - this is not what leaders do; it's cowardly.  Poor undeducated white people are looking for a leader and not seeing one.  You are not leading but fomenting the negative politics of the predecessors you claim to be different than.  You've blamed  pretty much anyone and everything for Clinton not getting out of your way, as the other opponents did in all the previous races you have participated in.  You have disrespected voters in all 50  states by saying they don't matter.   This race has brought up many situations where you could have stepped in and provided leadership and looked presidential in relation to race, gender and fundamental issues facing our country.  You continually fail to address the issues and paint yourself as a victim. You always misrepresent your own positions, and piggyback on your opponent's hard work, and blame diversions for your own failure to address the problems we have in our country.  This is a complex, problem ridden time in American history and I want to see you rise above the distractions, challenges and obstacles and earn the right to be called my nominee.

    [There, fixed it for you.]

    And what are your values? (none / 0) (#258)
    by janarchy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:13:33 PM EST
    Other than to be divisive? You did chose your user name to be ironic, didn't you?

    Parent
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#234)
    by nell on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:01:47 PM EST
    No vote stealing. If he believed he could have gotten more support, Obama should have agreed to a revote. He had all the money and momentum when this was proposed and he said no. Tough. Now seat the delegates as is both FL and MI.

    Also, Jeralyn, you might be interested in this. I learned yesterday that the rules committee meeting that will be held in DC on May 31st is an OPEN meeting, that means that any and all of us have the right to be there and to have our voices heard. I think it is incredibly important that people are there and let the rule enforcers know that fairness to Clinton and to the voters of FL and MI is expected if they want votes in November. When I get more information about the exact time and location, I will let you know, but May 31st in DC.

    You know the Obama folks will be there (5.00 / 1) (#250)
    by DJ on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:41:24 PM EST
    and be vocal.  Hillary folks need to be there too.  I'm tired of this caucus mentality.  Loudest is best.  Whatever.

    Parent
    IT'S THE RULES, fer cryin' out loud! (5.00 / 2) (#261)
    by arky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:19:18 PM EST
    Go by the fricking rules!  I don't think they know what they are talking about. Did they read the rules? Do they even know how?? I'm beginning to wonder.

    Delegate Selection Rules (available at DNC site)

    Section 13 Fair Reflection of Presidential Preferences
      A. Delegates shall be allocated in a fashion that fairly reflects the expressed presidential preference or uncommitted status of the primary voters, [...]

    That seems pretty cut and dried to me.
    55% Clinton
    45% Uncommitted

    Give Obama delegates?? Oh, I don't think so.


    Or (none / 0) (#263)
    by arky on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:22:11 PM EST
    whatever the final vote was...
    Was it 55-45?

    Parent
    If removing his name from the ballot (5.00 / 1) (#262)
    by Nadai on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:20:53 PM EST
    was required by the rules in Michigan, why did he leave his name on the ballot in Florida?

    Fair and balance (2.00 / 0) (#154)
    by Cayey on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:27 PM EST
    Florida should  be counted as is.

    Michigan should be penalized by half from (73 Hillary - 55 Uncommitted) to (36.5 - 27.5).

    Since Obama, Edwards and Biden decided not to be on the ballot, split the uncommitted 50,30,20%. Obama 14, Edwards 8.5 and Biden 5.

    Set the new majority to 2145 (2209-64)

    Would'a, could'a, should'a (2.00 / 0) (#174)
    by jsj20002 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:56:16 PM EST
    Listen Up. If Michigan had had a legal primary in which all of the candidates were on the ballot, the results would not have given either Clinton or Obama as much as they are now claiming.  I am an actual member of the Michigan Democratic Party and my assessment of where the January 15 primary would have turned out is as follows:  Hillary about 35%.  John about 26.  Barack about 26. Dennis at least 5%.  And the rest about 1% each. No one can possibly tell where a one-on-one between Hillary and Barack would have come out because the fools that created this debacle prevented any rationale choice.  Stop harping on what is fair and what is not. Get a life.

    Sigh (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:19:37 PM EST
    Also if all candidates had kept their names on the ballot so as not to disenfranchise voters.....

    There was no need to take names off the ballot.  The ones who did made a conscious effort to disenfranchise voters.

    They deserve nothing.  As Jeralyn said, the uncommited should go to the convention as uncommitted.  There, they should choose to vote for people who KEPT. THEIR. NAMES. ON. THE. BALLOT.

    It was stupid for Obama to take his name off the ballot.  Each candidate did stupid things in this election for which they've had to pay with votes/delegates.  Obama, in this case should get whatever crumbs the uncommitted give him.  If they give him nothing, that's the way it is.

    Parent

    Best comment yet (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:24:14 PM EST
    you can "tell" how it would have come out if Obama was on the ballot, and Hillary would have gotten less the the 55% she did get running against "uncommitted?" LMAO! That is comic gold, baby.

    Parent
    its called a compromise (1.00 / 0) (#4)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:00:37 PM EST
    Hillary wants as is seating, Obama wanted 50/50

    Michigan came up with a plan in the middle, so what you are really saying is there should be no compromise it should be as is seating, and most likely the Supers aren't going for that.

    if she doesn't want to compromise it will now be her blocking the compromise while Obama simply gets closer to 2,025

    A compromise must start from two plausible (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:01:31 PM EST
    positions. Obama's suggestion of 50/50 is insulting nonsense.

    Parent
    I've got an idea! (5.00 / 3) (#155)
    by lambert on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:34 PM EST
    Since the Obama campaign wants to buy Hillary out by paying her campaign debts, why doesn't the Obama campaign just buy as many MI delegates as they want?

    What could be more fair than the magic of the marketplace?

    Parent

    shurgs the State of Michigan (1.00 / 1) (#11)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:03:21 PM EST
    disagrees, and I betting they aren't happy with Hillary, they are sick of this, they just want to be seated and Hillary is saying no.

    and its not for the delegates 8 delegates does not change anything, she wants the popular vote. and good luck to her on that one.

    but hey she is now fighting against the State of Michigan, Obama was ready to accept, she can now go tell the voters of Michigan that the plan their state came up with wasn't fair to her, so they still don't get to be seated.

    Parent

    You're spinning (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:40 PM EST
    yourself into a real froth.

    Parent
    I guess he didn't start off demanding (none / 0) (#36)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:13:04 PM EST
    all the dels for himself--And a Range Rover.

    Parent
    Of course he was ready to accept when he gets... (5.00 / 5) (#35)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:57 PM EST
    all of the uncommitted and four of hers and he didn't get any votes because he voluntarily took his name off of the ballot in a political calculation.  He must not be rewarded for this.  Go with the election results since Obama blocked the re-votes. Fair is fair - no gain for gaming the system.

    Parent
    *nodding* (none / 0) (#259)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:16:13 PM EST
    That was a slap in the face, frankly.

    Negotiations are just now starting, for real.  

    Parent

    Truth Matters (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:05:05 PM EST
    You have 44 comments here today. Enough. Please come back tomorrow.

    Parent
    you yourself said (1.00 / 2) (#20)
    by TruthMatters on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:08:03 PM EST
    those who have been here for more then 30 days don't have comments only chatters

    the comment policy is

    1) Posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread; or

     2) Posts numerous times a day and insults or calls other commenters names or repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters.

    have I done either? are you telling me I have the most posts for today? because I highly doubt it I bet HRC supporters have more, I just don't say what you like so I am cut off.

    so be it, if thats how its done thats how its done.

    Parent

    You konow you are looking for trouble. (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:41 PM EST
    Allow the Clinton people a refuge ...mmmkay.

    Parent
    This ain't no disco (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:22:10 PM EST
    She's the boss, applesauce.

    Parent
    you are limited to 20 (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:24:15 PM EST
    a day, how's that? And you are done for today.

    You are chattering when you post 44 comments in a day .

    The rule today was a new rule for new users. I have always limited chatterers. I've given you a pass before because your posts are intelligently expressed and usually without insults, but today there are just too many and they are dominating the discussion which isn't fair to our other readers, particularly since we have a 200 comment limit due to increased traffic.

    Please, be respectful.

    Parent

    Truthmatters (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Dave B on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:12 PM EST
    Has 39 so far at MyDD today.  I have seen days in the 70's there.

    I cannot imagine having the time in a day to dominate the threads on two websites.  I must be in the wrong business...

    Parent

    Her site, her rules (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by s5 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:18 PM EST
    I'm all for Obama, but it's a pretty large internet out there, plenty of places to say whatever you want.

    Parent
    this is her blog, she has stated the rules, you .. (none / 0) (#40)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:16 PM EST
    as an Obama supporter should acknowledge this and quit.

    Parent
    What you mean is.... (1.00 / 3) (#102)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:40 PM EST
    .....Truth Matters has more pro-Obama comments than can be tolerated.  I'm sure there are many people here with more comments than are allowed, but pro-Clinton.

    Parent
    you are new (5.00 / 5) (#116)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:52 PM EST
    the comment policy has not changed here in 6 years. When I created it, opposing views meant people who supported the death penalty, opposed abortion, thought victims rights should be paramount over defendant's rights, thought the war in Iraq or Gitmo were good ideas.

    Now, being a Hillary opponent is an opposing view. This is my site, not your's or anyone elses, and those views will not be allowed to dominate the discussion. You can flood other sites with your pro-Obama rhetoric but you will be allowed to express it here if done civilly and in moderation.

    I have a full time job and I'm not going to baby sit the comments. 10 a day for you. And you need to follow the rest of the site rules.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 12) (#16)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:05:32 PM EST
    Two kids find a cake.  "Let's split it!" says one.  "No way," says the other, "I want the whole thing."

    "Now, now," says a nearby adult.  "You need to learn to behave like grownups and COMPROMISE."

    "So give him three-quarters of the cake."

    Parent

    Issues of fairness aside (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by s5 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:58:24 PM EST
    That's exactly the kind of person I want negotiating on my behalf. For all the talk about Hillary being a fighter, let's not forget that she failed to successfully negotiate universal health care in the 90s. Whether or not it was 100% her fault (and clearly it was not - there were powerful forces at work opposing her efforts), imagine if we had someone in office with the negotiating skills to get 75% of what we want as a compromise. Republicans have been pulling this trick for years, maybe it's time to turn the tables.

    Parent
    Except this is only for Obama, it is not an issue. (5.00 / 3) (#193)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:04:56 PM EST
    Obama is pushing this stealing of people's votes.  It is not a compromise and it is not playing hardball on getting an issue passed.

    It is disenfranchising voters, stealing votes, bullying to get your way.

    Parent

    Ding ding ding (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:07:31 PM EST
    Obama is acting like a Republican!

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#212)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:22:45 PM EST
    You should read up on the Bill Kristol memo.  The Republicans made a very conscious decision that they would not accept ANY health care bill, because they felt it would "revive the reputation of the Democrats as the generous protector of middle-class interests."

    It was not an issue of failing to negotiate well.  The Republicans decided to make a bet that they could block health care and get rewarded for it at the polls, and guess what, they were right.  Indeed, not only were they successful in leaving no fingerprints, but even today progressives blame Hillary for being a bad administrator, rather than blaming the people who were truly responsible.  It was an amazing coup they pulled, but it's high time people understood the reality.

    Parent

    Apples and Oranges. (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:23:11 PM EST
    Fighting for a policy proposal is one thing.

    Fighting for votes from real citizens that are not yours is quite another.

    It's akin to comparing debating a point in a classroom and stealing candy from children.


    Parent

    Okay, as long as we're ignoring the Jan results. (4.83 / 6) (#18)
    by OrangeFur on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:06:25 PM EST
    I propose 100/0 for Hillary. I'll then compromise with Obama's 50/50, and we end up with 75/25. I'll even go a little farther and end up with 70/30.

    How's that? :)

    Parent

    Whoa. (none / 0) (#22)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:09:10 PM EST
    You're going nowhere with that argument.

    Parent
    those (none / 0) (#51)
    by sas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:18:58 PM EST
    people voted for her

    Parent
    Yet more complaining about nothing (1.00 / 1) (#24)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:10:25 PM EST
    First off, Hillary shouldn't get more than 55.2% of the delegates.  That equals 71.

    Split the uncommitted vote between Obama (20%) and Edwards (20%) and that comes out to 26 delegates for each.

    There are about 6 delegates remaining, so split those three ways:
    Clinton - 73
    Obama - 28
    Edwards - 28

    Tell the Edwards pledged delegates they can vote for whoever they like (it's actually 55 between the two of them, not 56 because of rounding).  Most will likely vote for Obama.  That leaves us with the following:

    Clinton - 73
    Obama - 55

    Clinton - 57%
    Obama - 43%

    Hopefully the above becomes the counter-offer, but honestly, I don't know what the hell Clinton is trying to pull. She's NOT going to get all the state's delegates, that's just dumb.  She only won 55% of the vote, and should be entitled to only that amount.

    By the way (none / 0) (#34)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:56 PM EST
    you have to hit 15% before you start to get some of the pledged delegates.

    Parent
    Um... (none / 0) (#44)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:41 PM EST
    Most will likely vote for Obama.  That leaves us with the following:

    Most likely?  There's that Magic 8-ball again.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#57)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:20:36 PM EST
    you're giving them all to Clinton, so what's the difference.  Fine, split them then:

    Clinton - 83 (65%)
    Obama - 45 (35%)

    Clinton still will be down in popular vote and pledged delegates.  I honestly don't know what the heck she's trying to do.

    Parent

    that would be fine (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:26 PM EST
    I said in a comment above I could live with her getting her 73 and him getting all the uncommitted. That's an overly generous compromise. But no way should he take a delegate who was for her, let alone 5 of them.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#121)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:42:27 PM EST
    Who gets what is irrelevant at this point.  The objective is to seat the delegates in a compromise.  If this is what the Democratic leaders of Michigan want, it should not even be subject to a yea or nay from the candidates.  

    Parent
    It's proportional delegates (none / 0) (#54)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:20:00 PM EST
    not a straight % based on the overall % of vote you received. The # you are supposed to get depends on the margin per district. They would have to do the split you propose district by district -- not saying they shouldn't have to do that, just noting it.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#59)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:21:27 PM EST
    Yeah I know, but the percentages usually get it within a couple delegates.

    Parent
    Except in NV (none / 0) (#81)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:51 PM EST
    was it NV? Hillary won % wise, but Obama ended up with one more delegate.

    Parent
    Not legitimate (1.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Garmonbozia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:25 PM EST
    The January 15 Michigan primary could only be considered "fair" in the Soviet Union or a neofascist Central American country. Both Obama and Clinton stated that the results would not count and Obama wasn't even on the ballot, so any attempt to gain overwhelming advantage from those results now is grotesquely disingenuous.

    The goal posts seem to have wheels at this point.

    Would you prefer a 64/64 split? That's the solution that would be the least violation of the rules. You know..."rules"...those things that aren't supposed to change based on who's winning.

    Heh (5.00 / 5) (#41)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:17 PM EST
    The "Soviet-style" talking point again.  We may have to start awarding gold stars for that one.

    Parent
    Clinton and Obama simply (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by litigatormom on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:33:47 PM EST
    agreed not to campaign in MI.

    They don't have the right or the power to disenfranchise MI voters, or allocate their votes other than as the voters themselves declared.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#241)
    by Garmonbozia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM EST
    I could have sworn Senator Clinton said this last October:

    I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything.

    "...until I need to callously use it as a political tool to make sure I get what is rightfully mine."

    Parent

    Look it's novel. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    What Obama did by taking his name off the ballot there--I suppose Edwards colluded, was to say:

    This game is a "friendly" AND it's only going to last 20 minutes.

    Obama gamed it.

    Parent

    The rules are what the Soviet Union used to ... (none / 0) (#182)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:00:15 PM EST
    disenfranchise voters.  Obama is also against a re-vote, which is within the rules.  Clinton was for the re-vote.  Which candidate is changing the rules based on who is winning/

    BTW, this is not about Obama or Clinton.  This is about the voters; they deserve to have their votes counted and the delegates apportioned by the votes.

    Clinton: 73 Delegates
    Uncommitted: 55 Delegates
    Obama, Edwards, Biden, Richardson voluntarily took their names off the ballot: 0 Delegates
    Kucinich, Dodd and Gravel: 0 Delegates (did not make the 15% threshold)

    Either take these election results or re-vote.

    Parent

    Ain't gonna happen. (none / 0) (#239)
    by Garmonbozia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:16:56 PM EST
    Let me know how that works out for ya.

    And besides, shouldn't you guys be concentrating on where the goal posts are going next?

    Parent

    Michigan (1.00 / 1) (#133)
    by slimconnors on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:46:43 PM EST
    I find this discussion entirely absurd. Senator Obama was not on the ballot because he was following the initial direction of the Democratic party. For the Clinton Campaign or supporters to assert that she won Michigan doesn't seem valid.  I doubt if Michigan voted later as they did in the past and as recommended by the party with Obama on the ticket the outcome would have been different. If anyone is trying to steal the nomination now it is the Clinton camp. When one loses following the rules established on the onset of a contest one should not be allowed to remake the rules. Hillary is certainly demonstrating her poor and divisive leadership skills!

    The Democratic party didn't direct anyone... (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:35 PM EST
    ...to get off the ballot. Where do you get this?

    Parent
    I actually (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:03 PM EST
    think it's good that larger states are trying to encroach on the sacred cow of New Hampshire and Iowa.

    This should all be done in a single day, followed by a two candidate runoff a week later.

    Teh drawn out primary is bogus and allows the media to manipulate us like meat puppets.

    Parent

    Are you a troll (none / 0) (#208)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:17:37 PM EST
    You are brand new and right of the door you come up with this?

    If anyone is trying to steal the nomination now it is the Clinton camp. When one loses following the rules established on the onset of a contest one should not be allowed to remake the rules. Hillary is certainly demonstrating her poor and divisive leadership skills!

    Are you telling me I'm really not getting my unity pony?  I already named it.  I bought plastic comb and brush set and a new shelf for it to sit on and everything.  :(

    Parent

    the thread (1.00 / 1) (#256)
    by littlejake on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:03:50 PM EST
    this is my first comment on any blog, and I am not entirely sure why I have chosen this moment, but...

    I would like to believe that many of you are Limbaugh dittoheads who have been ordered to infiltrate liberal blogs with the most innane attacks on the others position.  Because surely, no one who has endured 8 years of Bush, and I repeat no one who has endured 8 years of Bush, could possibly vote for another republican because of an issue of delegate selection in a state and how it does or does not violate past, current, or future dnc rules.  

    nothing either candidate has done, nothing, not one thing, is different than dozens of primaries in the past in both parties.  like it, hate it, it is what it is, and has not been redefined in any way in this election cycle.  Bush Sr. attacked Reagan endlessly in 80, Clinton was attacked repeatedly in 92, Ford in 76, JFK in 60 and on and on and on.  Deal...get over it.  

    Because nothing that either candidate has done remotely warrents the threat of voting for McCain.  I have 3 young kids, and if you are going to allow them to live in a nation with mounting debt, a failing education system, increased terrorist threats, bad wages, global warming, lack of free speech, increased crime, reduced wages, a weakened constitution, reduced women's rights, attacks on unions, and a corrupt court system, because you are super duper unhappy about what someone who supports someone else said about someone who supports someone you like, then I am afraid the enemy is within and I must protect my children from all of you as well.  And that is simply too depressing to contemplate

    so, despite what many of you are writing, let me tell you what you really mean....and I do mean this in the most condescending way possible because that seems to be the acceptable tenor of the thread...

    what you actually mean is....I sure am sad that the candidate I wanted most did not this time get the nomination, but since both of them share remarkably similar views on most of the issues, and since the opposing party is insane, corrupt, and a threat to my family and way of life, I will have no problem at all voting, campaigning, and sending money to the eventual nominee.  In fact I will spend the next few months campaigning for the democratic nominee for president as if it was a life and death struggle for the economic, moral, education, and physical safety of my family and friends.  (because it is)

    if anyone is actually thinking anything else, than you have absolutely no idea, none, about what is at stake in this election.

    So back to the top, you silly dittoheads...stop making comments on liberal blogs and go back to your innane little world and tell everyone there about how the next president, senate, house, and supreme court are going to be run by democrats.

    Levin keeps sending (none / 0) (#2)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:59:55 PM EST
    emails for his reelection campaign.

    And I keep gritting my teeth.

    I like Levin.  He votes the way I want him to.  But he's losing me here.

    Then Vote him out... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Mrwirez on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:32 PM EST
    and pick the next best candidate. I firmly believe in 2 term limits in the Senate and 3-4 in the house. These people would be more interested in their legacy than their perks. Playing politics with politicians is like doing your own dental work.

    Parent
    My tinfoil... (none / 0) (#126)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:44:07 PM EST
    Tells me the DNC is coming down hard on Michigan Democrats to come up with a "resolution" to take the heat off of them.

    The 50 State strategy gives Michigan no love.  Not a single Congressional seat was in play in the Dem Wave of '06.  IMO, they're trying to starve the party into offering "a solution" keeping the DNC itself out of any proposals.

    I don't trust the DNC regarding Michigan Democrats.  They're too busy chasing the Mountain West to help with "blue states" in the upper midwest.

    Parent

    ah, I didn't realize it was vote stealing (none / 0) (#12)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:03:30 PM EST
    I'm fine with a compromise. As long is it isn't obvious vote stealing. The Democratic party should be very wary of doing that after 2000 and 2004. The reality of or even appearance of either disenfranchising or unfairly messing with the votes of those states is very dangerous. It takes away the issues and arguments we had in 2000 and 2004 and makes us out to be no better than the Republicans. Of course cheating is as old as politics, but not on this scale. At least I'd like to think not. The compromise could be just Clinton keeping her votes and Obama getting all the uncommitted (not fair, but at least not stealing). I think that's livable. Better would be to actually do best guess dividing of the uncommitted based on polling of the time. And best would be to leave the uncommitted delegates as uncommitted, making them SD's effectively.

    Um, Obama getting the uncommitted IS (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:05:16 PM EST
    stealing. That's the point.
    Let them be uncommitted. If Obama is so wonderful, he will get their votes.

    Parent
    yea, I agree (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:06:15 PM EST
    I re-read what I said and then didn't like that option either. Obama would be free to buy off those SD's like he has bought the others. Snark.

    Parent
    that would be a generous compromise (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:11:26 PM EST
    to give Hillary her's and Obama's the uncommitted. I'd probably accept that. But to give him the uncommitted plus five of Hillary's is stealing.

    Don't forget, some of those uncommitted were leaning towards Hillary just not ready to commit yet. And those who voted for Gravel, Dodd or Kucinich may have later decided she, not Obama, was their second choice. And some Edwards supporters who voted uncommitted may later have decided on Hillary instead of Obama.  

    So by giving him all the uncommitted, he's getting far more than those who wanted him . The uncommitted period is as generous a compromise as he should get. Not one delegate more.

    Parent

    agree, very generous (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:04 PM EST
    I thought better of that generosity, see above, but it would be better than nothing. At least it's not stealing Clinton's votes directly. But it is stealing votes from others. The best solution is to give Clinton her votes and to leave the uncommitted as they are, now powerful SD's.

    Parent
    Strictly speaking Edwards (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:15:22 PM EST
    desrves some of the uncommitted.

    We know he'd have got about 15%.

    Parent

    And I know you agree since you wrote about this... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:26:49 PM EST
    he should get none and let him and Hillary work to get the uncommitted.  Why do we have to compromise on this and reward a candidate votes and delegates he didn't get?  I realize that this is the most you would compromise, but, I think that this is an issue that demands a principled stand.  Voters should decide, not politicians and their surrogates.  Voters did decide - people talk about over turning elections - that is what any compromise will entail.

    No,no, no, no, delegates or votes to Obama!

    Parent

    Not true (1.00 / 0) (#109)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:21 PM EST
    The Michigan primary results are not binding.  Any compromise is up for consideration - and this one more fairly reflects what the outcome might be at this point in time.

    Parent
    Uncommitteds supported Clinton (none / 0) (#190)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:02:10 PM EST
    What's funny is the exit polls showed at 5% of the uncommitteds supported Clinton... :)

    Parent
    The funny thing is... (3.00 / 2) (#84)
    by IzikLA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:31:07 PM EST
    This is what Hillary's campaign has proposed, that she get her 73 delegates from people that actually voted for her, and he gets 55 delegates giving ALL of the uncommitted to him.  Need we say over and over again that uncommitted already had lots of Edwards votes in it.  That proposition is MORE than fair and his 50/50 split suggestion is actually insulting to Clinton and to the voters of Michigan that went to the poll.

    Parent
    People who were committed (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:32:56 PM EST
    went to the polls.  She still won.

    Parent
    Levin keeps sending (none / 0) (#19)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:07:58 PM EST
    emails about re-election and I grit my teeth.

    He always votes my way, but he is definitely pissing me off here.

    Heh (none / 0) (#47)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:17:36 PM EST
    I just realized that what I posted above appears to be the exact same formula that the MI Dems used.

    Smart people.

    And also, the Republicans attracted nearly 300,000 more votes, so it's obvious that MANY Democrats sat out.

    Hmm (none / 0) (#66)
    by RussTC3 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:45 PM EST
    I missed a few things.

    I see the 73/55 split is what the Clinton's want.  Yeah, I don't think that's too big a deal.  Perhaps they'll come around to that if they're a counter.

    Parent

    or.......... (none / 0) (#224)
    by cawaltz on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:33:22 PM EST
    Alot of Democrats crossed over to the GOP primary. It isn't like kos didn't suggest they do so.

    Parent
    I'm still confused (none / 0) (#53)
    by wasabi on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:19:12 PM EST
    I'm still confused about how one can select an "undeclared" delegate.  Delegates are chosen based on their allegiance to a candidate.  It's not easy for anyone to get selected to go to the national convention.  Only the precinct movers and shakers even have a slight chance of getting selected.  How does one find a person who is actively involved in politics, but has no preference?

    My solution would be (none / 0) (#55)
    by Faust on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:20:01 PM EST
    Go with the Clinton campaign suggestion of 73/55 and then strip the supers.

    I don't think the supers from either state should be seated.

    I'm sympathetic to the voters. I don't give two @#$%s about the supers.

    The fact that they even came up with a plan that counted 1/2 of the pledged and all of the supers made me laugh out loud.


    after all rules are rules. that is what we keep (none / 0) (#58)
    by hellothere on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:21:01 PM EST
    hearing from the dnc.

    wow, flooding and tornados right now (none / 0) (#65)
    by DandyTIger on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:23:32 PM EST
    OK, slightly off topic, but it's getting nasty here in Albemarle County, VA. We'll see how long my power lasts... I'm feeling clingy out here in rural America . :-)

    g'luck (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:34:19 PM EST
    The Tornado season in St louis 2006 was terrifying. I'll never forget that pea-green atmosphere right before the whirlwind.

    Parent
    Yeah, the green is terrifying (none / 0) (#140)
    by lambert on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:48:16 PM EST
    Stay safe, which I'm sure you know how to do.

    Parent
    I moved to Tucson. (none / 0) (#152)
    by Salo on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:50:56 PM EST
    Lovely weather here.

    Parent
    Hey Lambert, I was very interested in your (none / 0) (#156)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:51:37 PM EST
    comment about Obama's rhetoric on SS---the 'retirement security' bit.
    Have you written about that at corrente?

    Parent
    fair? (none / 0) (#74)
    by 2liberal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:27:35 PM EST
    this proposal is much fairer than Hillary's proposal to give ALL the delegates, plus the popular vote, to Sen Clinton and pretend that no-one in MI would have voted for Obama.

    Same old tired argument. (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by alexei on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:36:35 PM EST
    Obama and any candidate not on the ballot deserve votes or delegates.  Obama had his chance, he could have gone for a re-vote.  But no, he wants to either disenfranchise voters or steal votes in order to win.  Now, who is the candidate that will do anything to win?

    Clinton approved a re-vote.  There was a good chance that Obama could have done relatively well if he had embraced a re-vote as well.  So, instead Obama continues to game the system for his and only his benefit.

    Parent

    game the system (none / 0) (#246)
    by 2liberal on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:30:53 PM EST
    i don't think that sen clinton is completely blameless for trying to 'game the system' when her team approved of the sanctions towards FL and MI, but now wants to seat those delegations.

     If the situation were reversed, i am 100% sure that she would be fighting tooth and nail against seating MI and FL ; and also that you would be backing her.

    Parent

    The proposal is infinitely more fair..... (none / 0) (#79)
    by aequitas on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:13 PM EST
    .....than what Clinton wants - no delegates for anybody but her.  

    This is a fair compromise.  If she doesn't take it, then she bears the onus of disenfranchising all the Michigan voter that did not vote for her.

    But it's all over anyway.

    Obama proposes counting no votes at all (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:39:02 PM EST
    from MI. I propose meeting him halfway---count no votes for HIM.
    I think that is Solomonic.

    Parent
    You never did tell me (none / 0) (#122)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:42:32 PM EST
    how old you are.

    Parent
    So what? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:40:42 PM EST
    She gets the popular votes from MI and that helps her make her case.

    Wow (none / 0) (#119)
    by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:41:42 PM EST
    Jeralyn, I really always felt that while I didn't agree with some of what you had to say - you argued with reason and logic.  This post is an exception to that - especially your comments.  I understand that Obama took his name off the Ballot.  But Hillary also said that the Michigan contest wouldn't matter.  To presume no one in Michigan supports Obama is, I think, a misguided argument.

    Moreover, you never recognize that part of the disenfranchisement happened to those voters who stayed home because they truly didn't believe their votes were going to matter.  

    I understand you and other Hillary Clinton supporters are upset about the current mathematical reality.  But to suggest that Hillary Clinton's path is by earning votes in Michigan and giving none to Obama is not based on democratic principles no matter how much you wish it were.

    Note, I agree Obama camp should have handled MI and FL better.  But the proposal represents a likely outcome should a vote happen today or should a competitive vote occurred in Dec/Jan.

    How is counting some of the votes (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:45:47 PM EST
    less fair than counting none?
    You think Jeralyn is unreasonable?
    Obama made his choice to take himself off the ballot. Tough luck on that.

    Parent
    My point is (2.00 / 0) (#160)
    by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:14 PM EST
    the whole situation is effed up.  we all agree on that.  The proposal is relatively fair to both candidates.  Giving Hillary all her votes and obama none does not represent the will of the MI people and I think everyone believes that to be the case.

    I do think it would even be fair to give Clinton the delegates she won and obama the rest.  But Clinton people don't like that because it doesn't help give the nomination to Hillary.

    Parent

    Giving Obama zero votes in MI represents (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by MarkL on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:55:08 PM EST
    the will of Obama. Shouldn't that count for something?!

    Parent
    "Current mathematical reality" (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by lambert on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:47:12 PM EST
    I love that phrase! It's so "creative"! Kudos!

    Parent
    No Quarter (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by Kathy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:11:46 PM EST
    has a vid from (I know) Fox, wherein a ditzy Obama supporter actually says that Obama won "like, half of Michigan."

    Like, really?

    This revisionist history is so blustery.  And here we have more Obama folk yet again disputing the facts, which are: he took his name off the ballot for political reasons.  Clinton did not campaign in MI or FL.

    It's getting so I think that every thread on this should start with these two codicils and the warning that, should anyone bring it up, no one should respond because it is not an accepted (un)reality.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#205)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:16:52 PM EST
    "Uncommitted" won 2 counties, of which at least 1 is certainly Obama territory.

    I don't recall offhand how many counties Michigan has.  Maybe it only has 4.  Don't be so quick to call people ditzy!

    Parent

    "Like, really?" LOL!~~ n/t (none / 0) (#211)
    by nycstray on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:22:39 PM EST
    So..... (none / 0) (#197)
    by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:09:14 PM EST
    why the sarcasm?  how else should I talk about numbers and the facts of those numbers?

    Parent
    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:04 PM EST
    John Conyers and other surrogates campaigned for Obama in Michigan by taking out radio ads telling voters to vote uncommitted.

    Please read my earlier posts that link to and contain the text of the commercials.

    I also link to MSM opinion that he took his name off the ballot because polls favored her and he thought it would minimize the impact of her win.

    I have argued since day 1 that the DNC action sripping florida and michigan should be vacated. That's my position and if you read all my posts on it, it is well-reasoned.

    Parent

    You may have argued (none / 0) (#167)
    by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:54:29 PM EST
    this.  Clinton however did not.  I would be happy to give you all the MI delegates.  :)

    Parent
    Exactly right, J. (none / 0) (#222)
    by lansing quaker on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:31:46 PM EST
    Heck, it was all over MichiganLiberal, which was stumping Obama hard (and slamming Granholm/Brewer at the time).

    Is it really any surprise that the most liberal county in the State, Washtenaw, went majoratively "Uncommitted?"  Demography is destiny, after all, as BTD says.

    Wayne and Genesee came close.  Emmet is an outlier.

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#231)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:43:54 PM EST
    Brewer and the state party were also urging people to vote "uncommitted" if they wanted a candidate who wasn't on the ballot.  So I sorta disagree with Jeralyn that it was "campaigning" for Conyers to get this message out.

    Clinton surrogates like Jim Blanchard, btw, were guilty of a certain amount of GOTV in their own right.  I don't think it matters unless it was coordinated with the campaign.

    Parent

    Those are two separate issues.... (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by Maria Garcia on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:53:12 PM EST
    ....how does it logically follow that because Hillary once said that Michigan doesn't matter that when the party does decide it matters, they award the delegates in a way that didn't match the actual election results? Once they decide to make it matter, I think it is fair to argue that Hillary should get all the delegates that she won.

    Parent
    Wow... (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by AmyinSC on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:00:33 PM EST
    I guess the fact that this particular talking point - that Clinton dissed the Michigan voters - has been debunked abt a GAZILLION times, including at this very site a month ago, doesn't really matter (NY Times article from OCTOBER, 2007)...

    Obama does not deserve delegates he did not earn.  He does not deserve to get ANY of Clinton's delegates from MI.  I don't care WHO came up with this lame idea (presumably Clinton supporters or not) - it is a bad one, and no "compromise."  It clearly HURTS one candidate, and HELPS another.  

    Obama did not have to take his name off.  It was a STRATEGY decision - he should not be rewarded for that.  And Clinton should not be PENALIZED for HIS choices.  So much for personal responsibility.  Yeah.  Right.

    What the heck has HAPPENED to the Democratic Party??  When did it morph into the REPUBLICAN Party?!?!  And when did so many Democrats become okay with that?!?!  Sheesh!

    Parent

    Oy. (none / 0) (#161)
    by pie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:23 PM EST
    But Hillary also said that the Michigan contest wouldn't matter.

    Of course, that's not what she said or meant.

    Michigan is the eighth state in number of electoral votes. (Florida is fourth.)

    Parent

    The "seated as is" proposal... (none / 0) (#162)
    by mike in dc on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:52:48 PM EST
    ...is a complete non-starter.  If the DNC were to completely reverse itself and remove any penalty whatsoever from FL and MI, in order to appease the voters in FL and MI, and if Clinton were to somehow still win the nomination by a margin dependent on that outcome...

    ...wouldn't that tick off not just the voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina, who were assured that Michigan and Florida "wouldn't count", but also voters in the 27+ states won by Obama?  

    I'm okay with duplicating the punitive measure taken by the RNC against their FL/MI delegations: the delegations are halved.  It accomplishes 3 important things:

    1. It reflects the will of the voters as shown in those contests.
    2. Clinton is able to add those votes to her popular vote total.
    3. FL and MI still pay some penalty for breaking the DNC rules.  

    Clinton would get 2 out of 3 things she wants by a  50% seating proposal.  I think Clinton supporters seriously underestimate the Obama supporter backlash that would erupt if the RBC were seen to simply capitulate to her campaign's demand, to completely reverse itself and possibly in the process reverse the outcome of the race as legally conducted in the other 48 states.  Her nomination would be seen as completely illegitimate by half the primary voters and a significant plurality of the general electorate.  It would harm turnout and probably make party unity impossible.  

    I don't think there would be as significant backlash from FL/MI voters and Clinton supporters if the DNC were simply to reduce the penalty to halving the pledged delegates.

    The Fl Democratic Party (none / 0) (#207)
    by MichaelGale on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:17:31 PM EST
    took a vote of Florida Dem voters.

    They said no to splitting the numbers and no to a revote.

    They said:  We already voted and want the votes counted.

    Parent

    Could-a, should-a, would-a... (none / 0) (#187)
    by mcdtracy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:19 PM EST
    I know this is really important to backers of specific candidates but the reality is that the party elite (Super-delegates) will choose the Nominee.

    The details of FLA/MI and even the split of pledged delegates won't determine a clear winner. The concensus of the super-delegates will... and they will wait to vote until their effect on the outcome is clear. They want that power and the potential benefit that could result from being the kingmaker.

    So... we stir and insult and fight but the people with the juice to make it happen are waiting.

    Hillary knows this.

    Michigan & Florida (none / 0) (#189)
    by slimconnors on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:01:47 PM EST

    If the Michigan and Florida elections were held today with Obama on the Michigan ballot and fully participating in a campaign  in Florida. I believe he would have won Michigan and narrowed Hillary's any gap in Florida.

    The party should stick to their own rules and sanctions when they are broken.  Given that we all care about unity,  the party could decide to  allow delegates to be seated to share in the work of the directing the party's platform but delegates should not be awarded for the purpose of determining the democratic nomination.

    Any expense in giving Florida and Michigan a voice in the nomination should be borne by each state. Again, both Florida and Michigan disenfranchised their residents by not following the rules of the National Democratic party.

    There is no earthly reason (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by Steve M on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:13:08 PM EST
    to believe that Obama would win Michigan.

    It's like saying he would win Ohio if they had a revote today.

    You might consider that Obama was responsible for blocking the revote in Michigan, and think about what that implies about his campaign's view of the likely outcome.

    Parent

    Was he spewing spittle also? (none / 0) (#199)
    by nycstray on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:12:50 PM EST
    or just misinformation?

    I gave up MSNBC awhile back along with most cable and Network news. Much calmer and happier  :)

    Unfair to Hillary (none / 0) (#216)
    by zebedee on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:24:28 PM EST
    The argument is that giving Obama zero delegates is unfair because his name wasn't on the ballot. No one forced him to take his name off and as he miscalculated when at some point Michigan was going to have to be taken into account, it's not unfair to pay the price for such a decision.

    Hillary, on the other hand, has lost an enormous amount by the DNC decision, not just the pledged delegates she would have amassed. With normal primaries, huge victories in these two states would have given her unstoppable momentum, following on from victories in NH and NV. And the larger turnout would have made her a clear popular vote leader throughout.

    you don't understand (none / 0) (#223)
    by AgreeToDisagree on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:21 PM EST
    It was a symbolic gesture (just like edwards and the rest).

    The DNC Rules Panel voted to strip Michigan of its delegates.  HRC should be happy if they are counted at all.  Note: I think they need to be seated I just wholeheartedly disagree with the HRC supporters that  propose they sit an illegitimate set.  You can't change the rules when your supporters on the DNC panel helped draft them.  

    Parent

    So you would agree that BO, who campaigned (none / 0) (#235)
    by feet on earth on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:04:12 PM EST
    in Florida braking the rules, is illegitimate, right?

    Parent
    did he mention Guam? n/t (none / 0) (#217)
    by angie on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:25:23 PM EST


    Here, Here! Why certify Obama BS?!? (none / 0) (#232)
    by Exeter on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:48:22 PM EST


    Wow. Big surprise. (none / 0) (#242)
    by sickofhypocrisy on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:29:11 PM EST
    The party is going to be unfair to Hillary.  Please.  I'm surprised they didn't give him all of the delegates.  I'm going to switch my registration to Independent and never look back.  I would encourage all of you to do the same. The party needs to receive a message from Hillary supporters loud and clear: ENOUGH.

    Very similar indeed! Except Obama wants it all (none / 0) (#247)
    by DeborahNC on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:34:40 PM EST
    now. He doesn't even want to wait for the Supreme Court selection. The audacity of it all!!

    More ENABLING of Obama...I've never seen such crap (none / 0) (#249)
    by SunnyLC on Thu May 08, 2008 at 10:40:06 PM EST
    in my whole life...

    What/who is behind this guy??  If this is just "Clinton hatred" then this party is really sick!

    And they don't want to count the people's votes...

    This is why I will not vote for Obama...ever.

    And why I'm de-registering as a Democrat...because the party is no longer my party....

    Negotiation is the key (none / 0) (#257)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:08:31 PM EST
    to Michigan.

    They need to come up with a fairer plan.  Then, she'll agree.

    Well, the fact is that this is sexism. (none / 0) (#264)
    by AnninCA on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:26:10 PM EST
    The sexism I've watched throughout was her battle to even address his falsehoods without being absolutely blasted for attacking him and being a *itch.

    It's been unyielding.

    I've thought, she handled it as well as possible.  She definitely undid the harm that the Republicans did to her many years ago.  Now, some really odd-thinking net bloggers don't think so, but honestly, they don't think very straight.  Very reactive and emotional people, those head folks are.

    But she undid a lot.  BUT the price paid was that she didn't respond fast and swiftly to his falsehoods.

    Lordy, it's a tradeoff.

    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#267)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 08, 2008 at 11:53:24 PM EST
    new thread is up.